I apologies for being a bit nit picky here (I kind of hate it when people do that on forums) but for the sake of clearlity this one needs pointed to.

eHP is not the same as HP

HP = Raw value of buffer tank
eHP = Effective Hit Points, and depending on the use case things like mobility, eWar, etc can apply here. Things like HP regeneration and damage reduction certainly do apply here.

The concern over total eHP and dps output is one of the key reasons for the suggested change in equipment fittings values along with the reduction to average logistics base fittings resources (stats on suit).

Thinking more on it I wouldn't mind Method 2 if the concept of making Repair Tools a Role Bonus rather than a Min Bonus was brought over from Method 3.

EDIT:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15aVEIBYvliNdoSlu0RX_dt4zfXBjdDMx2iNoFoPY3Fw/edit?usp=sharing

For simplicity, I'd just add the Repair Tool bonus to the Role Bonus along with the Fitting Reduction, that way you're not listing the same damn thing on every suit.

But I think I still have to go with Cross in that I see zero problem with non-logis's needing to downgrade their equipment. To anyone who disagrees, I'll pose the same question as Cross. If other classes can use the same equipment in a totally self-sufficient way, why does the logi suit need to exist? You may like using the equipment, see a valid tactical reason for your particular suit class to need it, but in a global sense, why does a squad, much less an organized PC team, need a logi if they can easily spread equipment out amongst others?

To be fair, I think what Cross is going for with the increase to fitting is that it would make it such that only Logis can easily fit Proto Equipment, which in turns makes them better at using all equipment than any other role. So in effect, the resource reduction bonus is actually an equipment buff for all equipment, simply because it's able to use a higher tier than what you could use otherwise.

After looking at your spreadsheet, I see nothing that would in any way overpower the class, but there are a few things I disagree with.

While I understand your logic behind giving Minmatar/Caldari a shield transporter bonus if it were implemented, it makes no real sense why the Amarr would have a bonus to Minmatar equipment while the Minmatar themselves have no bonus to their own equipment. I think that Method 3 is really a no-go.

Method 1, as many other people have said, really reeks of homogenization.

Method 2 is definitely my favorite, but the Tertiary bonuses in Method 2 don't make sense to me. They are all bonuses to the equipment of the primary enemy of the logi's race. The Amarr, lore-wise, wouldn't want a bonus to Minmatar equipment, so on and so forth. The tertiary bonus should be the ally of the enemy's equipment, for example, a bonus to nanohives for the Minmatar, a bonus to scanners for the Amarr, a bonus to uplinks for the Gallente, and a bonus to the rep tool for the Caldari.


Those were just my personal opinion disagreements, but now I'd like to point out a few math discrepancies.

I have to point out that if you decrease remote explosive damage by 25%, you will need to make the logi bonus give a 33.33% increase in order to keep the damage the same. Alternatively, you could decrease the remote damage by 20%, and the 25% logi increase will keep it at where it is currently.

The amounts of eHP each logi is getting is the same, 30 in one stat and 50 in another for a total of 80 for each logi, and that's all well and good, but you have to consider that the Amarr logi has the most eHP, and should get the biggest increase, while the Minmatar should get a smaller increase to give the same percentages.

If we use the Caldari and Gallente as the template, they are getting a ~28% increase to their dominant stat and a ~33% increase to their recessive stat. So applying that to the Amarr and Minmatar, the Amarr should get +28% to their armor, which would make it +60 armor instead of +50(not a big difference, but CCP has specifically set up health to speed ratios, and you have to increase by percentages rather than set amounts if you want to keep the ratios the same) and the Minmatar would get +40 armor instead of +50.

But having said all that, I'm really just nitpicking, it's a solid proposal.

I think this quote might put me on board with the direction equipment is heading. A squad should need and want a Logi.

My other concern is will other roles want Logis to not be able to carry or use Proto weapons. If only a Logi can carry Proto equipment and weapons, it makes me wonder what type of blowback will arise. I am not adamently opposed to this, I'm mainly supporting, not killing, but I do need to defend myself from time to time. Just a thought.

Reduced lock-on times for the repair tools would be nice.

Maybe another re-evaluation of Active Scanners as they could be doing a little better. Reduced duration killed the scanner-ina stuff but the increased cooldown is a bit much, imo.

Something that I'd like to see (that I keep asking for) is standard variations of weaponry (assault combat rifle, for instance). That'd work wonders for lower tier Logistics suits in terms of fitting capability. 1.35 damage per round isn't worth 21 CPU/1 PG to me (standard vs advanced combat rifle)

Working on that pending all the usual tech VooDoo


I honestly hadn't considered touching the cooldown as an aspect, that's worth thinking about thanks


That's a bit outside of my domain as far as this proposal is concerned, but it is certainly something the CPM could have a conversation about.

Cheers,
Cross

Just make logis faster.
Make them just as fast as assaults(maybe faster?), but with more Stamina. That way they can run away from pretty much anything but a scout, but their actual combat effectiveness is still low.

I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades...

Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits.

Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant.

I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes.

I may be in the minority here, but I have no desire to have a bonus to RE's, and am still confused why they are considered equipment when you unlock them with grenades...

Unfortunately cross I have no idea just how tight the commandos really are until I am off work and bust out a calculator or get my light weapons to 5 and all of the light weapon optimizations to 4. All I know is that I'm aiming for basic RE/prox mines and I can only get that on two of my fits.

Hives/links are right out ATM. Otherwise I have engineering/electronics 5. So I need to defer to more heavily specced commando users. But no I was never advocating that commandos need proto rep gear. Basic serves my purpose there easily as a secondary logi assistant.

I would like commandos to have an eadier time fitting offensively aspected equipment. Scanners, explosives, mines and non rep hives seem most appropriate given they are specced for havoc and suffer rapid ammo depletion if you survive longer than three minutes.

I am beginning to be of the impression the the Commando may need an uptrend on its fittings situation generally speaking.
I don't have a commando suit unlocked at present sadly but how would it effect things if their fittings resources matched the racial Sent?

Yeah some extra fitting or give them some built in reps so you can put something besides a repper in your lows.

1)I agree with Logi Bro (hung up your HMG this week, did you?) in that the HP changes should be scaled the same way the suits are now due to the inherent speed/HP ratios. They may not be perfect but there is a good reason for them, unlike some other things CCP does. Why should the Minmatar suit get a proportionately larger HP buff while IGÇÖm still a plodding beast? (And also the same relative buff to stamina!)

2)IGÇÖm fine with tabling the increase to equipment fitting for now, no need to change too many things at once.

3)Of all the methods you list, I naturally pick #2, but still think it might be a little strong. Again, the original proposal I put out was for ~30% of the original bonus, not 50%. Not that I would have a problem with getting that big a bonus to rep tools but I understand the concerns about reducing diversity too much.

IGÇÖll take this opportunity to finally flesh out what I guess I should call my GÇ£Method 2bGÇ¥ in the next postGǪ.

Basically, instead of getting a smaller version of both parts of the GÇ£originalGÇ¥ EQ bonus, you get a bigger version of half of it. That way you keep some diversity. Here is what you would get, using ~75-100% of the original bonus.

In this example, to keep even more racial flavor, I will give 100% to allies, 75% to enemies. Amarr/Caldari get maximum benefit to deployables, Minmatar/Gallente to active equipment. Certainly you donGÇÖt have to make that distinction and could simply pick either 75 or 100% and use it for all 3 secondary bonuses regardless of race.

Amarr:
Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level

Secondary bonuses:
-3% bonus to repair tool rate per level
-3% bonus to active scanner precision per level
-5% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level

Cakdari:
Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level

Secondary bonuses (Goal: Engage at range):
-7.5% bonus to repair tool range per level
-7.5% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level
-+2 to max uplink spawn count per level (on the fence about this one)

Minmatar:
Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level

Secondary bonuses (goal: Get the most use out of each piece of equipment. Also: duct tape; not having to work on the landscaping of my estate for the next 8 generations):
-10% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level
-+1 to max uplink spawn count per level
-7.5% bonus to max nanites per level

Gallente:
Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level

Secondary bonuses (goal: Minimize casualties. Also: Minimize getting syphilis)
-5% bonus to repair tool rate per level
-3% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level
-7.5% bonus to uplink spawn time per level (on the fence about this one too)



I think I'm going to say this might be my preferred solution, actually. What is listed as method 2 on the spreadsheet is my second choice.

I don't really like the randomization here, why are some getting spawn counts, and some get the spawn timer... makes no sense to me.

For all bonuses, I would say, give all logis 2% to opponents races stuff, 4% to allies stuff and 5% to your own stuff (if 5% is the max, the native race gets).


Amarr:
Primary bonus: 10% to uplink spawn time, +2 to max spawns per level:

Secondary bonuses:
-2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level
-2% bonus to active scanner precision per level
-8% max nanites and 4% of nanohive supply/repair rate per level

Caldari:
Primary bonus: 10% max nanites and 5% to supply/repair rate per level

Secondary bonuses:
-2% bonus to repair tool rate per level and 4% bonus to repair tool range per level
-2% to precision per level and 4% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level
-8% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +2 to max uplink spawn count per level

Minmatar:
Primary bonus: 10% bonus to repair tool range and 5% to repair rate per level

Secondary bonuses:
-8% bonus to scanner visibility duration per level and 4% to precision per level
-4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level
-4% bonus to max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level

Gallente:
Primary bonus: 10% to active scanner visibility duration and 5% to precision per level

Secondary bonuses:
-8% bonus to repair tool range and 4% bonus to repair tool rate per level
-4% max nanites per level and 2% bonus to nanohive supply/repair rate per level
-4% bonus to uplink spawn time per level and +1 to max uplink spawn count per level



Considering the introduction of shield transporters (shield repper) I wouldn't like the minmatar to be pushed in the shield direction repping wise, since they are dual tankers... this will be difficult to balance... but I guess that it makes sense considering the EVE lore...

Another thing I've proposed before, if every logi has a wish for putting a repper/transporter on, why not put a repper/transporter slot where the sidearm of all the other frames is...