ProMin w/4complex breakers IS fast, still, but it definitely isn't as fast as it used to be. ProMin w/o 4 complex breakers, also, is fast-ish but also isn't as fast as it used to be.
"As fast as it used to be" being what I miss about my MinLogis hacking bonus.

EDIT: And, yes of course, that it was the fastest possible hacking suit on the block.

It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK.

It's only 5% slower. Like the difference from Hacking 0 to Hacking I. The Min Scout just gets an even greater bonus, thus making the Logi feel way slower. Take a look at the video lee corwood posted. We're talking about 2 tenths, 5 one hundredths, and 2 one thousandths of a second at max skills on a Proto suit. That's nothing, even with the low TTK.

I'm sending you 5 million ISK when I get home tonight. That was awesome.

Small tweak though. The Min Scout gets a native 10% bonus before the extra 25% from racial bonus, and 25% from hacking skill. So, it starts off with 35% instead of 25% as you have listed.

Again, badass video!

First of all. ANYTHING with 4 complex code breakers hacks fast, even though with the stacking penalties, that 4th one is a bit questionable.

Second. The difference between a pre 1.8 and post 1.8. fully skilled minlogi hack speed is not just 5%. 1.8 removed the minmatar logistics skill bonus of 25%, and buffed the minlogi built in hack speed modifier, yes, but not by 20%. That built in bonus was there pre-1.8. It was just buffed slightly (I seem to remember from 1.1 or 1.15 to 1.2) to differentiate the minlogi from the other logistics suits, which have the 1.15 built in modifier. The difference between minlogi and, say, amarr logi, is only 5%... when pre-1.8 it was considerably more than that.

Are you sure that all Logis had a built in modifier? I was under the impression that all suits were at zero, and the Logi with skill bonus went up to a 1.25 modifier? Most drop suits have a built in hack modifier after 1.8 except 3 of the Assaults and all Heavy Frames. Kind of like they added native armor reps to all suits in 1.9.

I can't find any spreadsheet on the old stats, and you could be correct. That would have meant the Min Logi hacked even faster than the Min Scout does today though.

Main support suits: Logistics gk.0 and Logistics ck.0
HP shouldn't be a concern, as although survivability is important, their capacity for out-tanking Assault was a primary cause for Slayer-Logi being a thing.

Nanite Injector: It's a ******* piece of ****. It's been 2 years. The guys on the CPM0 were telling CCP even before it was released how aboslute game-breaking terrible it would be if you can just pick up anyone. ATM terribads and troll are the only ones that carry them. More than any thing else there needs to be a way to avoid some prick with a dirty needle.
Secondly, the nanite injector is just terrible in that it only provides armor HP. It needs to provide Shield HP as well.

Active Scanner:
Needs to be re-balanced to detect medium frames. Best solution to that is to take away Gallente Logistics Scan Precision bonus and replace it with increased scan angle.
The recharge/duration needs to be closer. Not so you can constantly spam it.
So long as Gal-Logi has a bonus to precision Medium Frames cannot participate in stealth. 1.4-1.7 had many Assaults or Logistics running 2 dampeners. It was a much healthier game in that tacnet exchange.

Removal of squad-shared passive scanning will also significantly improve the desireablity of Active Scanner

Skill Bonus. It's been 9 months of me saying this: They need to be comprehensive.
The Logistics suits need to be the best at using all equipment. Not just a single one.
Fire the idiot, even if it was LogiBro, that thought it was a good idea or even acceptable to have these split up.
It's not even complicated.

- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level

I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure.

Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for.

Ok, I see what you mean.
The greedy part of me that has those games so rarely screams no, but we had a rep cap a while back... I know it was increased but I don't remeber it being removed. Are we also considering the other sources of WP like spawn uplinks? those are pretty bad too, not bad but just point farms. Usefull, just like repping, but that WP should be examined as well.

The other part of me knows that the WP rewards are too high for things like guardian points. (and assists for that matter)
IFF points were given as a percentage of health healed WP may change quite a bit... but which direction?
The other option is to just lower the WP earned... but i am having so few good games I rarely make it to the middle of the charts - so that doesn't seem to solve the issue either.

So a soft cap after X WP from repping? If we had to please just make it a high one.

Instead of pressing these points down could we instead raise other sources of WP? Like kills, hacks, etc.?

Here is the big logical issue / disconnect I see personally.

Can I make more WP in my Logi suit than my assault or heavy? Yes.
Can I break even ISK wise in my Logi suit even half as often as my assault or heavy? No.
Should Logi WP be lowered thus deepening the current problem of overly burdensome role cost? I do not think so.

The above is made worse still by the fact that I am a pretty solid Logi, and only a mediocre slayer so that I am more able to go ISK positive playing slayer than logi is a sign things are really not correctly calibrated.

With the way that WPs work internally now I am not sure there needs to be any change here to be totally honest.

However since I am not even remotely a fan of foregone conclusions, please outline for me the specifics of the situation and why it is a problem because I do not wish to assume there is nothing I have missed.

Describe specifically what behavior you are trying to alter/address and why.
Also what levels of WP would be considered proper, in what contexts, and why.
Bonus Question: If diminishing returns were added should higher meta rep tools award more WP per cycle?
(should they award more per cycle anyway considering that higher meta = fewer cycles and thus lower potential earnings in many contexts). Input on why/why not in both cases.

Above questions open to all who wish to comment
Cheers,
Cross

Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came.

Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives.

We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though.

Nothing direct to Logis, unless it was ninja'd in. There have been several changes to other game elements as a whole which effect Logis peripherally, like passive scanning changes. Best spot unfortunately for finding that stuff tho would be in the FeedbackSticky archives.

We did have our inherent reps returned to us, along with all other medium frames. I'm not sure where/when that falls relative to when you last played though.

Re-Reads response, looks at thread OP date


*cries*

I have a feeling that things would move so much faster if the Logis were based around Aurum...

I guess the biggest issue for me is that some schmo can hold R1 the entire match and see little to no decrease in the amount of WP, versus a Logi that was an actual integral asset to the team via links, hives, reps/revives, and kills/kill assists.

I honestly believe that if the rep tool had a point of diminishing returns, then the Logi WP whores would go do something else. I don't see many staying put and continuing to rep if they are not grossly rewarded for doing so. What I can see though, is a real Logibro staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before.

The diminishing returns could be offset by the tier of rep tool being used. Mlt/Basic would bottom out at 5 WP, Adv at 10, Proto/Specialist at 15. What would not change is the Guardian Warpoints, keep those as it is. If the WP values were going to change, I would have it at a 20, 25, and 30WP tier from Mlt/Basic to Proto/Specialist.

What I do not want to see, is a rep tool that needs to physically cool down. Lower or no WP? Sure. Just don't have it stop working.

Out of morbid curiosity, how long did Shottys Scout threadnaught take to get its first Dev response? We started this discussion, spreadsheet, and proposal over 6 months ago...

Any changes to logis since i have been gone?. I stopped playing about 3 weeks before the new maps came.

Open Beta logi with maxed EQ here.

My view on the reptool: I don't like leaching a heavy/slayer 24/7. I think it's ok for intense engagements, but running behind a heavy just not to miss those 35+ Guardian points is just meh... (i think that should be lowered to +25 like kill assists)

I would like to see a overheat on the reptool with the following changes.

The reptool overheats if latched on for extended periods. Overheating increases cooldown.

Standard cooldown 3 sec. Overheat cooldown 10 sec.

Having a seized reptool in hand prevents switching to a weapon, like with overheated weapons.

Time to overheat on a core focused may be around a minute, so that you can have a longer engagement but not perma leash.

The reptool will give higher output (+25%) when heated up (after two thirds of it's heating cycle)

The reptool will overheat slower in lower tiers, since you need quite some time to rep anything with the basic ones.

High tier reptools would have a much shorter cooldown. They overheat faster, but they also recover pretty much instantly (3 sec at proto).

Wp should not be attached to the repping cycle, but the amount of reps given.

To make life for Logis easier, make a quickdraw EQ slot, which can be chosen with the weapon swap button. This would make it much easier for logis to switch from weapon to reptool and vice versa.

Give the Amarr the possibility to put EQ in his sidearm slot.

Give the Caldari either a combined sidearm/EQ slot or one more EQ slot.

Apart from that, I'd like to see more speed for the logis, since they need to run around much more than point defenders to either drop EQ in different locations or run to the depot to resupply. Logis need to be at least as fast as Assaults, to be able to move with a slayer squad.

What has been said about a general EQ buff for logis, I agree upon. EQ should only shine on logis, not on the other suits.

I would also like to see racial reptool variants, like tools with resistances, shield tools and combined shield/armour tools.


Make a special Stealth Uplink useful to Scouts, that has insane fast spawn times (2sec), but only 5 spawns on it and a very low scan profile (not detectable by a Gallogi). It would be 3 carried but only one active at a time. It would be nice if this link was given a fitting bonus on scouts like the cloak has. This would help in reducing the Scout QQ which I'm tired of.

First things first, a tech issue. I do not see diminishing returns as being at all likely from a coding standpoint.
Could it be done? Sure.
Would it be done in light of the resource cost (in game/match) to implement it? Almost certainly not.
Now, I am not a CCP programer and I could simply be mistaken but from other features I have seen discussed and dismissed (scaled WP for injectors based on total HP restored for example) I do not think we will see it in game.

Independent of that there are a couple of issues to address.
1. If Logi income is to be balanced including kills/kill assists as part of the baseline then logi combat ability needs to be balanced with the ability to get kills (and survive in the contexts to do so) as part of the baseline as well (I do not believe this is the current condition of the frame).
2. If Reps are to be brought down in value to normalize them with other support actions to force players to spend less time repping then that contains an implicit assumption that logi earnings are improperly high. Otherwise the proper course would be to raise the other rewards to the level of reps. I cannot fully support the notion that logi rewards should be diminished unless/until playing logi throughout an entire match is not so frequently a losing (ISK) prospect.

Conceptually I am adamantly opposed to building the game such that proper tactical behavior is not rewarded.
There are times when this will be needed due to exploits but I am not a fan of things like caps and cooldowns on earnings for actions. Should there be a cool down or cap on the earnings from kills or assists? I can see a real slayer staying and doing the job needed even if they are not getting as many WP as before (but does that make it a good move?)

To be clear, I spend more of my support play time deploying links and hives in key areas than I do repping so the recent changes to BW (which I supported) have had more of an impact on my earnings than a rep tool change would. But these changes cannot be made based on any one of our personal play styles or preferences. We need solid game or role level concepts to recommend a change.

0.02 ISK
Cross

- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level

- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level