I've virtually quit using anything but my BPO or STD suits. It's just not worth bringing my a 223k proto suit or even my 83k advanced suit when I'm two shotted by a militia bolt pistol. And it's not even the weakness or the money that bothers me. It's the weakness + the money + the utter lack of value it gives me. I find that I perform pretty much the same with lower tier items with a better payout than I do with my more expensive suits.

I'm not poor and I'm not rich. When I get a great squad who takes care of me, I'll throw that money down like nobody's business. Those guys took care of me, so hell yeah I'm going to bring out the Wyrikomi needles and Six Kin Rep tools and go negative this match.

But I think I'm not an exception. I think most all skilled out logis out there have this same experience where it's just not worthwhile to pull out, period. I get flak all the time for not bringing out my best hives, my best rep tool and my best needle to every game.

But all that PRO EQ 57,015 ISK (Not to mention the +57,690 ISK just for a suit that can fit the requirements)...

114,705 ISK (without any other mods) =/= automatically better performance for myself OR the team.

There is no real incentive for me to want to use that more expensive gear when I have consistent proof that it doesn't actually DO better. And with BW even the number laid is not an advantage but a worrisome detriment without a BW meter.

- "Better rep tools mean you turn a BB OP against incoming fire" - you've clearly never used a repair tool before

- "Better injectors mean I can pick someone up to get immediately back in the fight" - so does my dirty bpo needle, because I don't pick someone up when a threat still exists.

- "Better nanohives mean we don't have to depend on a supply depot" - actually it just means we both have to depend on a supply depot. My hives don't give you enough ammo to survive another war. It's enough to give you just a few clips (maybe one depending on how many of you there are) to survive to get to a depot. And when I'm out of hives we ALL get to travel to the supply depot so you can get more ammo and I can get more 'oh **** we're all out of ammo' ammo.

-"Better uplinks mean" - nothing. Literally nothing. I've yet to see where 2-3 seconds meant the turn of a battle in anything except PC. The reality is, seconds mean nothing. Placement means something. Coordination means something. 5-8 people all spawning on one uplink and taking a point by storm in mass is what makes uplinks valuable. Hell if anything, I've had my 7 second uplinks still last 15 due to all the server issues we're having.

Until my EQ is made at all valuable, I fail to see what use it lends for me to bring it into the game.

The main problem IMHO is that everyone ties 'wp whores','spammers' and 'logistics' together.

Yet equipment is to blame.

For example:
-let's say a merc has 1000 armor
-and a tool has 100 hp/s reps (rounded for easy math)

That's 10 ticks worth of WP.
And it's actually a low amount vs weapon DPS.

What if a tool had 200?

That's 5 ticks.
Effectively cutting 'wp whoring' in half.

If tools were buffed at all levels by x2 it would aid new players be relevant,older players support well,and allies survive longer.
While scaling WP to accomidate this new change.

Currently you can almost reach ADV tools reps with suit modules alone,and you can breeze pass Basic,that's insane and removes the need for external support.

And Pro costs too much to run consecutively.

So logistics can choose to be screwed over 1 of 2 ways,have a garbage tool or have an expensive tool.

Newer logistics can't foot that kind of bill all the time.

---

My solution to spam?

Increase the cluster amount of hives by x4-5,and amount refilled to 50% at basic,75% at ADV and up to 90% at Pro.
Increase amount repped by triage hives by 50-60 hp/s.
Straight up double hybrids refill rate,minimum.
Increase carried amount by 5. (10 works too )
Then cut the amount deployed by 1.

Then,add a Cal logistics exclusive of +1 deployed hive.

All logistics would have effective hives,but Cal logistics could deploy more of them and rival the other logistics in value.(Nanite + refill bonuses would stack.)

I actually like shayz' idea about uplinks.

All increases should be given through logistics exclusive bonuses ,of course.

What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill.

What if triage points were only rewarded once the armor hits 100%? Like the opposite of a kill.

No.

Because habitually they don't make it to full health before termination.
Just as damaging but not killing the enemy will award assist points if they are killed by another player, a logi receives rep points for assisting the health of a merc. But all that goes away with a 100% needle.

What do I get from a capacitor?

a limited time to heal? or is it more like an overdrive double or tripling my reps for a limited time?


A logi is already gimped enough, let us not gimp them further Booby and Mordecai. You know the arguments about capacitors, but if we need to rehash them we can cut and paste again. Battles are too varied to establish a set time for healing - though some may stay 'leashed' far to often it is not standard of being a logi. Look at the entire class and the many actions it takes, then take another stab at what you may see as WP disparity.

I have had great logi games where I did hit the top of the charts, that was with a well coordinated team. Most often those high WP matches are a rarity and not the established experience of all logis. They are the outliers, the 5%.

If we keep working this through we must ask:
Do we start adding capacitors to all suits then?
And what would be their purpose?

You see, If we have one capacitor it must be used on other things as well, will it:
Limit uplink spawning to 1 per x seconds?
Limit firing times for weapons to a x shots withing x seconds?
Where will it end?

Don't get me wrong, capacitors work well in Eve and create a dynamic battle system. I can see them on vehicles as some have mentioned, but what bonus do the infantry get from such things?

If they someday have capacitors I hope it will be for the supersoldier modules we've talked about in the past. Like increasing damage for a certain amount of time or sprint speed, but then lowering that boosted stat for the time it was down. I could see a super rep tool variant that used a capacitor or supper rep module that used a capacitor, but it should not be the norm.

HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS.

HUGE pet peeve of mine. I get punished for my 100% revives via warpoints. Less WP vs the Proto version, and less WP because I don't bust out the rep tool to top them off. Load of BS.

Too true Booby, I am not a fan of such mechanics.
Should there be a logic check perhaps? If someone has a repper then the WP is recalculated because we could have repped?

Should it work instead over time and not instant? say, give 30% now and keep repping until it reaches the 90% hp heald level and give rep points along the way?

How do you think it should be fixed?

I guess what I am trying to say, is that we need a point of diminishing returns in regards to WP from rep tools. I do not want them to cease in functioning via a capacitor. That would be a huge nerf to logis. It's the WP whoring we're trying to cure.

Starting off with +25, and falling as low as 5WP before it cuts off is more of what I am looking for.

Good Stuff

Yep, the nano bonus is pretty weak, and nanohives in general feel weak.

As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time).

Now, having said that I am confident that after all the various changes to the game there will likely be room for further polish on Logis and equipment even after the changes. Room to really make them shine. But I am a firm believer in the iterative process and working with the community here so that is IMO all to the good. When the changes come please play test them and post your feedback (tagged with build etc) in this thread so we can craft the next step together

Cheers,
Cross

As a quick update, last word I have is that there will be some Logi love coming in the next hotfix which should be deployed (as I understand it) post patch. All things have been somewhat delayed due to the nature of multi-national holidays combined with coordinating two games on the same server + working with Sony QA (which streamlined or not still takes time).



Cheers,
Cross

From a Minmatar Logi's perspective the current bonuses are fine, in fact they are rather good, still I stand by what I posted the first time it was suggested to use different equipment more effectively depending on race of Logi. I don't like it. I do like long rep ranges though and I also like all the other equipment I use but its really a no brainer here, you make all minmatars medics that is their role, and it pigeon holes them. Not that I can't use proto hives or links or needles or even scanners but I see a problem with the current iteration. Last iteration all I did with my matar logi was hack. Do you see a pattern here? I certainly do.

I miss my MinLogis hacking bonus.

Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though.

I leave you guys alone for one minute (well, okay, a good sight longer than that, blame work and look what I come back too!
...constructive discussion... am I still on the Dust boards? You LogiBros do my heart good

o7
Cross

Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though.

Now I have to try this. I've proto'd both suits but never tried to just fill my logi slots with hack mods. Be a cool video to show a video compare.

- normal suit like a min assault
- a std logi (sadly can't test this one now that I have a proto min logi)
- a logi (with proto skills)
- a logi (with proto skills) + 4 complex mods
- a min scout (with proto skills)
- a min scout (with proto skills) + 3 complex mods

now I have a video project for tonight

Min Logi still has a 20% bonus to hacking speed. They took away 5% in Uprising 1.8, and gave an even greater bonus of 35% to the Min Scout. At max skills, the Min Logi gets a 45% bonus and the Min Scout gets a 60% bonus before adding Hacking mods. All Logis hack faster than any suit but the Min Scout, as the other 3 Logis have a 15% built in Hack bonus. A Proto Min Logi with 4 Complex Hack mods is still damn fast though.