DUST Search - Sticky:The Respec Discussion Thread

Tallen Ellecon wrote:

Rinzler XVIII wrote:

Tallen Ellecon wrote:

Open market can't work with respecs. We can't have a respec everytime they change stats. They should give them out when they change the tree or remove a skill. We all take the same risk. Invest in cores, and as I've always said "spec into something as if it was balanced". Wait until they change the medium suit slots, fix AV, and add Matari and Amarr vehicles, then I'll be on board with a respec until there is an open market.

Respecs don't bring real balance, they just allow everyone to go FOTM. After FOTM is nerfed people demand another, the cycle never ends, there is no stable market, there can be no EVE integration, then the game just becomes another bland shooter.

Vets go FoTM anyway

No 1.8 respec just allows the vets to monopolise and dominate even further .. the people it hurts the most are intermediate players with 5-16m SP

I'm a vet with 0 SP in Flaylocks, tanks, or the Caldari Logi. 2/3 of my SP is in dropsuit core upgrades. I'm only proto in one suit and my most maxed weapon is the AR. Not having the option to respec means I'll fight harder for reasonable balance and diversity. A respec can only help anybody until the next update reshifts the balance. Vets will have an upper edge regardless, but having respecs doesn't encourage people with less SP to spend wisely. We should be demanding tiericide and balance before demanding respecs. I've stated it countless times it's a temporary fix that has long term negativr repercussions.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Brian LaFleur RETR0 PR0 GAMERS 21	Posted - 2014.03.07 03:20:00 - [871] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: FOTM won't go away because there's no respect. There will always be FOTM chasers. Why punish people who are getting their suits changed because some people will chase whatever is OP? If the Devs understood balance, FotM could be resolved. It's all math. I don't see how they can run a business while sucking so bad at it. Petals within petals, tadpole; The truth lies beneath an opulence of illusion.
Charlotte O'Dell Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2025	Posted - 2014.03.07 03:24:00 - [872] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: What part of I don't have the SP to save are some people not getting? I do not have cores maxed. I do not have tanks maxed. I am saving up for those. I do NOT participate in fit of the month because I am saving for other stuff. I do not have SP to sit back and save for these new suits as I am trying to be competitive with people like Charolette who have double my SP. A respec will at least allow me to try the new suits without having to hear all the "Rave" reviews. Come on community, 50 pages! scary thing is there are people with 1.5x what i have O.o Charlotte O'Dell is the highest level unicorn!
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 820	Posted - 2014.03.07 07:13:00 - [873] - Quote From what we've heard so far, medium frames' CPU/pg and slotcounts are staying unchanged, so they're planning on changing them again at a later date. This leads me to conclude a FULL respec in 1.8 would only enrage the medframes down the line if any slots are removed(callogi's 5/4 setup, amarr's lack of a slot, minmatar assault's inability to use armor, yet caldari gets 4/3 allowing more freeedom between twin/damage tanking.) From my opinion, i would say still refund SP from Light/Heavy skilltrees, as many people are currently Amarr commando/galscout wishing to change races,(min commando for me) armor and shields aren't that necessary Atm, however a decent argument could lead me the other way. Equipment with logis has been changed, so i'm betting we should refund equipment only/all upgrades. Weapons i feel isn't that much of a problem come 1.8, as their roles are staying the same, hoever their roles with their suits is changing drastically, so this one could again be argued. We could go two ways: not respec until medframe changes, upsetting the logis/commando/sentinel/scouts in the community, however opens the avenue of respeccing come medframe changes. Other way would be to respec now, telling medframes to be careful spending SP there, as when the changes come they're not being respecced again. Alternatively we could refund medframe SP again when it comes time, but that's more neckbeard rage. As a nice alternative, we could refund only light/heavy skill trees in 1.8, followed by a full respec come 1.x when medframes change again. (Might be repeating itself, but i hope it makes sense enough for you to understand) No SP refund=academy stomping FOR DAYYZ Proud owner of 69 'Fleshriver' Nk's. No i don't buy AUR
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 1570	Posted - 2014.03.07 07:22:00 - [874] - Quote Or just always refund SP when a change is made. Drop it like its hat.
Lynn Beck Wake N' Bake Inc Top Men. 820	Posted - 2014.03.07 07:29:00 - [875] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Or just always refund SP when a change is made. That is bad. Very very Bad. We can't be refunding SP every time a change is made, as that would just exascerbate the FoTM problem, along with any balancing changes: sure, everyone's using RR, but what's the reason? If its' doing comparitively good against Shotguns, the its' the hipfire/DPS/spool time. However... Nobody is using shotties because RR is the FoTM. Therefore CCP isn't able to say 'RR is too good because CQC ability steps on shotgun, nerf CQC RR. Only time full refunds are given is when the game fundamentally shifts, or when CCP screws something up- like typoing EVERY skill in the tree.(vehicle engineering?) No SP refund=academy stomping FOR DAYYZ Proud owner of 69 'Fleshriver' Nk's. No i don't buy AUR
Draco Cerberus BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 808	Posted - 2014.03.07 07:42:00 - [876] - Quote Lynn Beck wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: Or just always refund SP when a change is made. That is bad. Very very Bad. We can't be refunding SP every time a change is made, as that would just exascerbate the FoTM problem, along with any balancing changes: sure, everyone's using RR, but what's the reason? If its' doing comparitively good against Shotguns, the its' the hipfire/DPS/spool time. However... Nobody is using shotties because RR is the FoTM. Therefore CCP isn't able to say 'RR is too good because CQC ability steps on shotgun, nerf CQC RR. Only time full refunds are given is when the game fundamentally shifts, or when CCP screws something up- like typoing EVERY skill in the tree.(vehicle engineering?) So, then what you are saying is for 1.8 there should be a respec? LogiGod earns his pips
Symbioticforks Ancient Exiles. Renegade Alliance 59	Posted - 2014.03.07 09:05:00 - [877] - Quote Screwing with time to kill is a fundamental shift. Lowering the damage of the bread and butter weapons, and cutting damage mods in half turns many peoples worlds upside down. Changing the suit bonuses.. (the whole reason people chose to go into prototype suits) is a large enough change to warrant a respec in my opinion. Yes, even in a game where you cannot respec at will.
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 140	Posted - 2014.03.07 11:53:00 - [878] - Quote I agree. Now that all these new guns are also coming out, people who can't save shouldn't be stepped on. Sure, you want to reward the vets. Guess what, they will always be rewarded. I also agree with the person whose argument on no medium frame slot changes means we shouldn't have a respec yet, but I would like on so badly. This puts me in a hard spot to discuss. I would say a minor respec for Assault suits, but that is just a ridiculous ideas. At the same time, why should only Scouts and Heavies get a Respec? I don't want me Proto Min Assault to constantly be getting flanked by all these new Scouts and their cloaks. I can't decide. At this time, I would still argue for a full respec, and then we can argue later about a respec for Assaults and other Medium Frames, but this really bugs me. 45 pages guys! 5 more!!!! IDGAF who you are. You shot at my Corp, now I WILL kill you. Only question is: Will you fight back?
Awry Barux Ametat Security Amarr Empire 1477	Posted - 2014.03.07 15:44:00 - [879] - Quote At this point all I really ***** want is an announcement one way or the ***** other. It's a simple executive decision, and it seems absolutely disrespectful to keep us in the dark like this. Respec in 1.8 due to huge battlefield role shift for MinLogi! All my posts are respec posts (Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ LockmeBro!
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 36	Posted - 2014.03.07 16:01:00 - [880] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: At this point all I really ***** want is an announcement one way or the ***** other. It's a simple executive decision, and it seems absolutely disrespectful to keep us in the dark like this. +1

NextDark Knight Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 253	Posted - 2014.03.07 17:38:00 - [881] - Quote Saved up almost 6 million SP since you announced changes.. No need for a respec. That is all! Forge Changes needed Officer Splash 3.0, Proto 2.7 Advanced 2.5 Standard 2.1. Original ROF needs to return!
Hansei Kaizen The Jackson Five 1	Posted - 2014.03.07 18:11:00 - [882] - Quote I saved up a whopping 300k SP! Don't need no respec to get my basic Heavy and Sidearms :D Though Vehicles respec set a precedent on the case ... If the whole Dropsuit Command skill tree layout is getting changed (like the vehicles) it might be a necessity to refund the SP for that particular skill tree.
Eris Ernaga State Patriots 931	Posted - 2014.03.07 18:24:00 - [883] - Quote I wonder if my character has 30 mill sp yet i would love a respec. *Closed Beta Vet* An ol' State Patriot Gone until the game gets better Estimated Wait: *ErrorWaitTimeToLong*
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood General Tso's Alliance 4867	Posted - 2014.03.07 19:28:00 - [884] - Quote Kinda hoping for one myself there's just so many things I either don't need, are no longer useful or have changed so drastically I just have no more reason to have SP invested into them. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 4 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Reallusion GrimSleeper Turalyon 514 Turalyon Alliance 5	Posted - 2014.03.07 20:01:00 - [885] - Quote I believe respecs should ALWAYS take place when a spec'd item changes for the worse, but that is the only time. People know changes are going to happen regularly, so planning accordingly should be essential. I have a lot of stuff I specced into (wasted over 3 mil SP easily) for stuff I don't even use anymore due to changes, but I'm not complaining, it's just the way life works. But in a case like the damage modifiers, snipers don't do enough damage as it is, especially considering how wiggly mercs are on this game. It takes a great deal of practice and skill to get headshots on these people and after one hit they get even more slippery. The only reason I spec'd 10% damage mods is to actually be able to kill heavies sometimes with 3 good head shots, and half the time they STILL live, lol. I mean there head shots... Generally in games 1 headshot = dead no matter how strong the enemy is. Now it's going to take 4 or 5 headshots to bring down a real Heavy, meaning I have to empty a clip basically just to attempt to kill one. Of course I could go for lightweights, but hell.. even the Logis I'm seeing now are having over 1000hp. LOL. Under that notion, I believe if damage modifiers are to be lowered, then headshot multipliers should be re-evaluated. How does a pistol do over 4x damage it seems on a headshot (much easier with a pistol) but a sniper rifle does 1.75x ? that's kinda ridiculous. The sniper rifles should at LEAST do 2.35x on a headshot or something. I wouldn't have ever bought 5% damage mods with the low damage I already do cause it's pretty much pointless, but now my investment to 10% mods is basically dropping to the useless ones I would have never bought to begin with. That's pretty unfair and deserves a respect seriously. I don't believe FULL respecs should be given to anyone, but for universal modules/items that can be used by anyone? That's a completely different scenario. The damage mods effect pretty much EVERYONE on the game, but hurts Snipers the most. Join the revolution... change the future.
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1552	Posted - 2014.03.07 20:50:00 - [886] - Quote Open market can't work with respecs. We can't have a respec everytime they change stats. They should give them out when they change the tree or remove a skill. We all take the same risk. Invest in cores, and as I've always said "spec into something as if it was balanced". Wait until they change the medium suit slots, fix AV, and add Matari and Amarr vehicles, then I'll be on board with a respec until there is an open market. Respecs don't bring real balance, they just allow everyone to go FOTM. After FOTM is nerfed people demand another, the cycle never ends, there is no stable market, there can be no EVE integration, then the game just becomes another bland shooter. Ion pistol in 1.8? Really, is that it? When is that? SoonGäó514 "No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.
Ripley Riley 935	Posted - 2014.03.07 21:22:00 - [887] - Quote 1.8 is bringing a lot of interesting changes to Dust: three new sidearms, dropsuit skill adjustments, and a new piece of equipment... but all of that is irrelevant. When 1.0 launched players lacked Amarr and Caldari scout dropsuits as well as all sentinel and commandos except Amarr. This forced players into selecting racial dropsuit decisions that they did not necessarily want. E.g. "I want to be a Minmatar sentinel... but I can't so I will go Amarr sentinel." This choice also effected what weapons, equipment, and tanking style they selected. Players should not be penalized by CCP's lack of dropsuit choice at 1.0. A refund of the SP/ISK in the Weaponry, Dropsuit Upgrades, and Dropsuit Command is in order. "I need not food nor water. Your tears alone sustain me." - Ripley Riley
Rinzler XVIII Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 199	Posted - 2014.03.07 21:36:00 - [888] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: Open market can't work with respecs. We can't have a respec everytime they change stats. They should give them out when they change the tree or remove a skill. We all take the same risk. Invest in cores, and as I've always said "spec into something as if it was balanced". Wait until they change the medium suit slots, fix AV, and add Matari and Amarr vehicles, then I'll be on board with a respec until there is an open market. Respecs don't bring real balance, they just allow everyone to go FOTM. After FOTM is nerfed people demand another, the cycle never ends, there is no stable market, there can be no EVE integration, then the game just becomes another bland shooter. Vets go FoTM anyway No 1.8 respec just allows the vets to monopolise and dominate even further .. the people it hurts the most are intermediate players with 5-16m SP
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1881	Posted - 2014.03.07 21:53:00 - [889] - Quote Brian LaFleur wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: FOTM won't go away because there's no respect. There will always be FOTM chasers. Why punish people who are getting their suits changed because some people will chase whatever is OP? If the Devs understood balance, FotM could be resolved. It's all math. I don't see how they can run a business while sucking so bad at it. Because in game the math isn't straight forward like looking at a spread sheet. There are changing variables that make the maths come out differently when the math is live and not on paper. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Tallen Ellecon KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1555	Posted - 2014.03.07 22:11:00 - [890] - Quote Rinzler XVIII wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: Open market can't work with respecs. We can't have a respec everytime they change stats. They should give them out when they change the tree or remove a skill. We all take the same risk. Invest in cores, and as I've always said "spec into something as if it was balanced". Wait until they change the medium suit slots, fix AV, and add Matari and Amarr vehicles, then I'll be on board with a respec until there is an open market. Respecs don't bring real balance, they just allow everyone to go FOTM. After FOTM is nerfed people demand another, the cycle never ends, there is no stable market, there can be no EVE integration, then the game just becomes another bland shooter. Vets go FoTM anyway No 1.8 respec just allows the vets to monopolise and dominate even further .. the people it hurts the most are intermediate players with 5-16m SP I'm a vet with 0 SP in Flaylocks, tanks, or the Caldari Logi. 2/3 of my SP is in dropsuit core upgrades. I'm only proto in one suit and my most maxed weapon is the AR. Not having the option to respec means I'll fight harder for reasonable balance and diversity. A respec can only help anybody until the next update reshifts the balance. Vets will have an upper edge regardless, but having respecs doesn't encourage people with less SP to spend wisely. We should be demanding tiericide and balance before demanding respecs. I've stated it countless times it's a temporary fix that has long term negativr repercussions. Ion pistol in 1.8? Really, is that it? When is that? SoonGäó514 "No blue tags make Tallen go crazy.

The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1881	Posted - 2014.03.07 22:15:00 - [891] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: Rinzler XVIII wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: Open market can't work with respecs. We can't have a respec everytime they change stats. They should give them out when they change the tree or remove a skill. We all take the same risk. Invest in cores, and as I've always said "spec into something as if it was balanced". Wait until they change the medium suit slots, fix AV, and add Matari and Amarr vehicles, then I'll be on board with a respec until there is an open market. Respecs don't bring real balance, they just allow everyone to go FOTM. After FOTM is nerfed people demand another, the cycle never ends, there is no stable market, there can be no EVE integration, then the game just becomes another bland shooter. Vets go FoTM anyway No 1.8 respec just allows the vets to monopolise and dominate even further .. the people it hurts the most are intermediate players with 5-16m SP I'm a vet with 0 SP in Flaylocks, tanks, or the Caldari Logi. 2/3 of my SP is in dropsuit core upgrades. I'm only proto in one suit and my most maxed weapon is the AR. Not having the option to respec means I'll fight harder for reasonable balance and diversity. A respec can only help anybody until the next update reshifts the balance. Vets will have an upper edge regardless, but having respecs doesn't encourage people with less SP to spend wisely. We should be demanding tiericide and balance before demanding respecs. I've stated it countless times it's a temporary fix that has long term negativr repercussions. I have to agree, I have been here for a long time and I just now put SP into Flaylocks, I have no proto suits and only 2 proto weapons(SCR and LR, I never use) so saying that "Vets go FotM" is an assumption that is probably more incorrect than true. However I would like to see some data, if available, that points one way or the other. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Piraten Hovnoret Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 365	Posted - 2014.03.07 22:35:00 - [892] - Quote AL argument that is agsinst respec are plain and simple dumb. Wy give tanks a full respec but not infantry? Bla bla bla remaking the skill three, what the hel this is acactly the same thing. Bla bla bla vets vill got fotm, WTF vets have a cuple of Miljon sp saved already they have 45+ miljon sp and they have al the sh-ít they need already. I am done with this topic now if you are against respec your plain and simple mental. Respec or I am done with this game haven't spent almost a year investing time and effort to get that thrown out the window over a patch. War never changes
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1882	Posted - 2014.03.07 22:39:00 - [893] - Quote Piraten Hovnoret wrote: AL argument that is agsinst respec are plain and simple dumb. Wy give tanks a full respec but not infantry? Bla bla bla remaking the skill three, what the hel this is acactly the same thing. Bla bla bla vets vill got fotm, WTF vets have a cuple of Miljon sp saved already they have 45+ miljon sp and they have al the sh-ít they need already. I am done with this topic now if you are against respec your plain and simple mental. Respec or I am done with this game haven't spent almost a year investing time and effort to get that thrown out the window over a patch. I am going to start hiding all the people's post whom say they are going to quit so I can see how long they last. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 38	Posted - 2014.03.08 00:10:00 - [894] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: AL argument that is agsinst respec are plain and simple dumb. Wy give tanks a full respec but not infantry? Bla bla bla remaking the skill three, what the hel this is acactly the same thing. Bla bla bla vets vill got fotm, WTF vets have a cuple of Miljon sp saved already they have 45+ miljon sp and they have al the sh-ít they need already. I am done with this topic now if you are against respec your plain and simple mental. Respec or I am done with this game haven't spent almost a year investing time and effort to get that thrown out the window over a patch. I am going to start hiding all the people's post whom say they are going to quit so I can see how long they last. I've already uninstalled.
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1888	Posted - 2014.03.08 01:25:00 - [895] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: AL argument that is agsinst respec are plain and simple dumb. Wy give tanks a full respec but not infantry? Bla bla bla remaking the skill three, what the hel this is acactly the same thing. Bla bla bla vets vill got fotm, WTF vets have a cuple of Miljon sp saved already they have 45+ miljon sp and they have al the sh-ít they need already. I am done with this topic now if you are against respec your plain and simple mental. Respec or I am done with this game haven't spent almost a year investing time and effort to get that thrown out the window over a patch. I am going to start hiding all the people's post whom say they are going to quit so I can see how long they last. I've already uninstalled. Then I will hide all your posts because if you don't play then you shouldn't be contributing to any discussions and the ones you do add to should be ignored because you clearly don't care enough to play so why should your comments be regarded as anything but trolling or totally inaccurate because you don't play the game. Looks like you lost DUST514, if you come back to the forums or play after uninstalling because you are mad, stating that you quit or anything in that vein. DUST514 beat you. No need to respond because all of your post are hidden and considered useless if you don't play the game. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 38	Posted - 2014.03.08 02:43:00 - [896] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Piraten Hovnoret wrote: AL argument that is agsinst respec are plain and simple dumb. Wy give tanks a full respec but not infantry? Bla bla bla remaking the skill three, what the hel this is acactly the same thing. Bla bla bla vets vill got fotm, WTF vets have a cuple of Miljon sp saved already they have 45+ miljon sp and they have al the sh-ít they need already. I am done with this topic now if you are against respec your plain and simple mental. Respec or I am done with this game haven't spent almost a year investing time and effort to get that thrown out the window over a patch. I am going to start hiding all the people's post whom say they are going to quit so I can see how long they last. I've already uninstalled. Then I will hide all your posts because if you don't play then you shouldn't be contributing to any discussions and the ones you do add to should be ignored because you clearly don't care enough to play so why should your comments be regarded as anything but trolling or totally inaccurate because you don't play the game. Looks like you lost DUST514, if you come back to the forums or play after uninstalling because you are mad, stating that you quit or anything in that vein. DUST514 beat you. No need to respond because all of your post are hidden and considered useless if you don't play the game. Well, perhaps I should have given some background. I work full time. I commute to school full time. I have capped out a grand total of twice since I started playing in 1.6. I don't get to play often. Oh yes, and my grandfather died on Tuesday. All of the above, combined with the sub-par gaming experience of DUST has motivated me to take a short leave of absence so that I can do a more effective job of caring for my family, focusing on my schoolwork, and focusing some extra time on my training (I'm a competitive endurance athlete). Hopefully when I come back there will have been a SP refund...if not, then at least I have some passive boosters rolling and I'll have a few more SP to play with. If you truly have hidden this and all of my posts, then you won't know how much of an ******* you are -- but everyone else will. And that makes me chuckle. P.S. I only just uninstalled a couple hours ago, after suffering through a number of matches infested with RR Sentinels and super-tanks. So I'm perfectly up-to-date on the DUST experience. The game hasn't beaten me, quite the opposite in fact. I put the game in time out for the time being.
RayRay James Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 25	Posted - 2014.03.08 02:49:00 - [897] - Quote Please, no respec. One of my favorite things about this game is that your choices have consequences. a respec no different than buying something and then trying to return in a year later when something new is released. I'm against a respec ever again unless items are removed form game.
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1194	Posted - 2014.03.08 03:24:00 - [898] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Well, perhaps I should have given some background. [...] No, no you really shouldn't. At the very least for your own sake. The Robot Devil made some unhelpful assumptions about your person but your response can only lead to further personal attacks that are entirely immaterial to the subject discussed in this thread. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Zaaeed Massani RisingSuns 38	Posted - 2014.03.08 04:43:00 - [899] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Well, perhaps I should have given some background. [...] No, no you really shouldn't. At the very least for your own sake. The Robot Devil made some unhelpful assumptions about your person but your response can only lead to further personal attacks that are entirely immaterial to the subject discussed in this thread. Eh, I'm not worried about myself in the context of this community. Dabble in online forums long enough and you develop a thick enough skin that even the most caustic of personalities can't do squat to you. I really just wanted to accentuate his assumptions. Personal attacks worry me naught...however, you are absolutely right in that what I said is immaterial to the thread at this point so I will forgo further explanation. May the thread go on!
The Robot Devil Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1891	Posted - 2014.03.08 04:54:00 - [900] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Zaaeed Massani wrote: Well, perhaps I should have given some background. [...] No, no you really shouldn't. At the very least for your own sake. Try not to ever post anything personal in game or on the forums because people are mean and they will use it against you. "You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." Raoul Duke



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