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Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1125	Posted - 2014.02.23 02:09:00 - [1] - Quote Awry Barux wrote: Scout Registry wrote: Chase FoTM. Keep FoTM. Not in favor of respec. - 32 million SP (some in bad places, but I own my decisions) Time to address the FoTM argument for the millionth time. yawn Vets are sitting on millions of unallocated SP, completely ready to jump on the 1.8 FoTM train whether there's a respec or not. There's no way to stop that. FoTM is inevitable. Actually, there is: Don't offer respecs for anything but the most severe of circumstances so that they have to think twice about dumping 3-5 months of SP into something that might benefit them just for the remainder of the month. The ones being able to do this for more than a few cycles without compromizing their original skill plan are on the far high end of the bell curve and thus limited in numbers. Awry Barux wrote: The only players hurt by a lack of a respec are those who are still in the middle of skilling their first role, i.e. those with <10-15mil SP, who are going to have a comparatively huge portion of their SP tied up in suits, upgrades, and weapons that will be obsolete when the powerful new content is introduced. You seem to imply that every addition of content must necessarily make a large number of builds obsolete. That would be the case only if new content were intentionally more powerful than what is already available i.e. powercreep were an intented part of CCPs content design. It is not. Balance hiccups happen and will continue to happen. That does not mean that we will never reach a state of reasonable balance where a sensible build can survive a patch with minor adjustments. Oh and the very first thing you should focus on as a new player are core skills and those are pretty resistant to balance changes anyway. A character with <10m SP should not have most of his SP into suits, modules etc. in the first place. Awry Barux wrote: A respec can only help even the playing field. It evens the playing field towards the high end. Salvaging 30% of your "wasted" SP buys someone with <5-10m (already several months into the game) some core skills and a proto suit, maybe with a portion of the mods needed to justify even fielding one. If a respec was the thing someone needed to become competitive, chances are, he wasn't too far off to begin with. Now think about what 30% of 20-30m SP get you. Respecs increase the overall performance pressure put upon new players and amplify the importance of raw SP over smart allocation. Awry Barux wrote: Also, I know that I, and many other players, want particular suits and playstyles regardless of whether or not they turn out to be FoTM. A respec will allow us to preserve our battlefield roles despite 1.8's complete role overhaul (i.e. min logi going from speed hacker / scout-logi to the designated heavy humper). I commend you attitute and tend to agree with this point overall. That's why i think that, if 1.8 comes with full racial symmetry or at least very close to it, that's as good a time to issue one final respec as it gets. Overall though, i think, repeated respecs are hugely detrimental to the game as a whole and should be avoided if at all possible. That leads me to my final point. I can't help but note that many posts in this thread leave me wondering whether they argue for: A One final respec at some point in the future, otherwise only when necessary for technical reasons. B Paid or otherwise recurring respec as a game feature. C No respecs, period. Especially A and B use some of the same arguments, yet argue for vastly different things and many posters who might seem to be C could actually just take A for granted and thus just skip that part. We might be fighting unnecessary battles by ommiting what specifically we're arguing for. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1125	Posted - 2014.02.23 03:35:00 - [2] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Most players with over 10 million SP don't really have too much "wasted" SP. Most vets know where to put their sp and specifically planned out builds to avoid any needless waste. It's the newer players who tend to waste that SP. Giving them the chance to fix their mistakes, nevermind the chance to make informed decisions with the new foundation in place, can only serve to help them. A vet switching from one maxed out 20 million SP build to another has virtually no effect on anything but that players own enjoyment. Everyone makes these mistakes, at least on their first character, and everyone figures them out rather sooner than later. The vet has just reached the point where it doesn't make that large a difference in relation due to the higher absolute SP count he has. The current literally perfect veteran characters are merely a consequence of the two respecs they had the "pleasure" of experiencing (cough cal logi, flaylockcough). The large relative amount of wasted SP a new player could fix through respecs is generally small in absolute terms and nets very limited benefit to them in the long run. The months of SP a vet gets to shove around with every respec, whatever the motivation, grants him much more (potential) benefit in comparison. Your last statement has to assume a reasonably balanced, stable game environment to follow -one in which new players would be able to make said informed decisions. I'd argue that players can and should be trusted to make their own skill decisions without the prospect of regular respecs at that point anyway. An optional respec after X amount of SP that cannot be stored, If anything, would suffice for new players without giving vets an option they were never intended to have. Diversification should be a consequence of high SP counts and not respecs after all. Again, i'm strongly in favor of a "final" respec once all current content is (mostly) racially symmetric and the current suit changes pose a strong argument aswell. What i'm arguing against is the notion that respecs are a worthwhile feature in and on themselves. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1126	Posted - 2014.02.23 08:06:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: What i'm arguing against is the notion that respecs are a worthwhile feature in and on themselves. See, I am and I'm not torn at the same time. First and foremost, I accept that CCP wants to have a persistent universe where your decisions matter. I can respect that, so long as they can respect it as well by only doing light balance passes instead of these drastic shake ups that we keep getting. From that perspective, I have not and do not argue even for annual respecs. However, speaking strictly from a gameplay perspective, I literally can see absolutely no harm in allowing respecs at will. It literally has no effect on anyone but the person who is shuffling around their SP. All it lets them do is enjoy the game how they want to, plain and simple. So, while I would never propose or ask for anything even close to that, I also don't see how it causes any damage in game. It would definitely damage AUR sales, so for that reason alone it would never happen, but just speaking objectively, respecs really only hurt peoples roleplaying. There are a few things i'm worried about: First off, i'll just link this piece from several months ago. The first paragraph deals with the "decisions => consequences" jadda and argues that it, while any individual might or might not agree, in itself has a certain justification to exist. The rest explains two particular dynamics that are pretty much unique to EVE/DUST which add long term value for both vets and noobs. Adding respecs (I'll assume we are talking about a feature from now on) would remove this whole dynamic. A loss for people like me and, i'd argue, a loss for everyone as it makes the game more stale, even if not initially perceived that way. Next up replayability: In every progression system that is not a WoW clone, half the accomplishment of an endgame viable/competitive build is getting there. I'd argue that the long, often tedious and error prone process of making a powerfull, efficient fit is something many players enjoy and there is literally no other product in the market that provides both a classic FPS experience and a deep, harsh yet rewarding progression system to really sink their teeth in and theorycraft around. Respeccing at will reduces this process to the press of a button, possibly coupled with a financial transaction. Kittened up yo fit? Doesn't even matter, click here to try again! You made the perfect fit? So did everybody else who bothered to look at the current PC paradigms and had some spare change (if a paid "service"). For some players punishing faulty skill choices is depressing and balance changes that wreck your fit are discouraging and unfair. For others, making the right decisions and adapting to changes out of their control are part of the game, if not even central to it. One group of players finds a suitable product in almost every modern FPS, especially some of the better F2P ones for PC offer great customization with simple and fair ways to deal with changes. The other has Dust aaand...nothing else really. The last thing, albeit a bit of a stretch is a big concern of mine: Future Economy. The dust economy will most likely end up being similarly complex and engaging as the EVE one in order for them to merge at some point. That means a huge swath of skills with multipliers ranging from 1 to 16, materials, facilities and all that jazz at least on the EVE side of things. What does an industrialist do if his best running product, e.g. the PRO RR, gets nerfed and people start to switch to the CR? Without respecs, people will mostly be stuck with their RR at first because the CR needs a minni suit to really kick off and an immediate jump is only feasible for those with enough foresight or luck to either have all needed skills already or enough SP saved up to do the transition. The trader would have an opportunity timeframe to adapt ASAP and be the first to produce the CR en masse for huge margins. With respecs? The trader loses the majority of his sales after the patchnotes go live, but before the actual patch gets released. The only way get adapt is to quickly respec all relevant industry skills or be out of busines (so to speak) and the whole process can be over within a few days. The eve side cannot respec. How many capsuleers will spend months of training and possibly trillions of isk to engage in a market so volatile? Keep in mind that they can not possibly prepare for this stuff by just saving SP. I know that all these points are more or less affected by: Bad balance Lack of content Lack of game modes (PVE) Unfun mechanics The important part is that balance can only be improved by better balancing -content/modes by adding more of it and PC won't be less of a nigh pointless isk faucet if people can respec. Respecs are a simple and seemingly intuitive way to refresh the game by trying all the stuff out until the actual game gets fun or to make it less punishing for new players until we get them a venue to actually learn the game. But looking at the last respecs we had, none of these issues have gotten any more bearable beyond the first week or so. Respecs, to me seem like a dangerous excuse for CCP to let all these unadressed for longer than necessary because, hey, they're adding respecs... I'd rather they fix the game, honestly. TL;DR: ^ 5500 characters of text ^ You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1128	Posted - 2014.02.23 20:08:00 - [4] - Quote Brian LaFleur wrote: Ghost Steps wrote: i think we whould get 1 last respec (being warned that is the last). Also the respec option with aur is a good idea 4 days to come as it is a name change (is not like u cant get an identity change in the EVE univers blackmarket ) and personalization features like those on eve, these r good ways to get incomes on free to play games. Why only one? What if they pull another across the board stat switch? Respects should be mandated whenever any changes to the meta are made. We cannot make informed decisions in how we place our sp when they are playing musical stats. Because your definition would lead to a respec every single patch, leaving the skillsystem with basically no worthwhile function beyond a pointless powergrind. At that point just gutting the SP system altogether and going with ordinary character levels would be more sensible as that is effectively what the progression would boil down to. The market is full of games that do just that. Again. Bad balance is bad balance is bad balance! Respecs have nothing to do with it. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1129	Posted - 2014.02.23 21:08:00 - [5] - Quote Brian LaFleur wrote: Really? Every time, huh? Yeah, I can't recall the last time they changed dropsuit functions. I've been around since 1.4 and this is the first time it's happened to me. You said changes in meta. Every balance change or content addition, by definition, will change the meta, if even slightly. Brian LaFleur wrote: Also, I've never had a full respec so I see no reason why I shouldn't get one since my allocation of skill points no longer do what they did when I applied them. This will happen all the time. You are free see this as a crippling issue. Others are free to not share this notion or beg to differ. Also balance is balance. Brian LaFleur wrote: A pointless power bring? That's exactly what I would call not having any say in what you spec into. It's like making a Mage character then midway through the game they make you a priest. Whenever major changes occur, they either let us change with it or deal with the backlash. It's simple, really. Yet another time: Bad balance is bad balance. You keep tieing balance into the discussion as if it had anything to do with respecs. It has not. Respecs merely both mask and at the same time amplify an issue that exists regardless. Also "major" is a useless term without a proper definition. Brian LaFleur wrote: There's no down side to a respec, period. There are only pro's. That's a bold assertion to make when I just explained some in detail a few posts earlier. Brian LaFleur wrote: I think an annual respec should be standard. Let's people optimize and correct their mistakes. You guys arguing against a respec make absolutely no sense. They totally can already. No skill is ever locked away under the current system. Lastly, hardly anyone here is arguing against "A" respec. You are not arguing in favor of "A" respec right now either. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1129	Posted - 2014.02.24 04:01:00 - [6] - Quote Sam Tektzby wrote: Guess what boyos, Logibro was on forum, but he completely ignore this thread. Im done with CCPs ignorance. No one has even implied that this thread would do anything but streamline the discussion. You should re-read the OP and manage your expectations. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1130	Posted - 2014.02.24 06:09:00 - [7] - Quote D legendary hero wrote: 28 pages later and no response. Im starting a REAL respec discusion thread in general discusion. As long as people don't spam the general discusion forum with these threads it won't get locked. Since, CCP doesn't want to discuss it with us, we should be able to discuss it among ourselves in a free environment. CCP Logibro wrote: Any other topics anywhere else on the forums will be locked or deleted You too should re-read the OP, it seems. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1131	Posted - 2014.02.24 08:49:00 - [8] - Quote Just a little food for thought This poll by CPM Jenza asked participants to order several features according to their own priorities, among which an aurum respec feature could be found. It goes without saying that online polls are generally prone to selection bias and methodological flaws, like double voting. Here's the current results, representing the average position (n=289): 3.8 PvE 4.1 Player Market 5.3 Racial Suit Parity 7.3 Enhanced new player experience 7.4 More Heavy Weapons 7.6 Planetary Conquest 2.0 7.8 Minmatar & Amar Vehicles 9.8 More Light Weapons 10.1 Private Matches 10.4 More Sidearm Weapons 10.4 Tieracide 10.8 VTOL Jets 10.9 Dust on PS4 11.2 Paint Bucket (custom suit/vehicle colours) 12.2 Stealth Module 13.7 Dust on Computer 13.8 EVE - Dust Unified forums 14.1 Aurum Respec Item (with restrictions) Another poll by Ghost Kaisar asked specifically what, if any, kind of respec should happen with the release of 1.8 Here are the results (n=436): 26 No Respec 15 Dropsuit Command Respec 8 Dropsuit Command, AND Dropsuit Upgrades Respec 101 Dropsuit Command, Dropsuit Upgrades, AND Weapons Respec 286 Full Respec Personal conclusion: While participating users expressed a general concensus in favor of a singular respec, come 1.8, probably due to the upcoming suit changes and the prospect of major content additions, a similar consensus seem to exist against respecs as a AUR game feature. Again, due to the nature of both these polls, taking these results with a 1m-¦ brick of salt is recommended. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1134	Posted - 2014.02.24 17:12:00 - [9] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: The Robot Devil wrote: Agreed, this thread is for stubborn know it alls and whiners. It is only here to vent and stop RESPEC threads. It is a good place to keep all this garbage. This thread isnt for you, though I am sorry youre the clear minority in the discussion Lord Neckbeard does not seem pleased Argumentum ad popolum. A popular idea isn't necessarily a good idea. Inversely, being the minority does not mean someone's wrong, especially when we're talking about several, superficially similar but really completely different positions that are falsely lumped together. I also wrote up a post that highlights some of the issues I see wirth recurring respecs and would appreciate your musings regarding them. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1138	Posted - 2014.02.24 20:15:00 - [10] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: Eldest Dragon wrote: After all the new suits and weapons added we deserve a respec. Please. You deserve a respec because there is new free content? I don't get this mindset. If a respect is deserved for anything, it's because the choices the players made when picking these suits are no longer there. Changing the PG/CPU on a suit is one thing, but changing the bonuses and setting those suits into a completely different roll is another. I didn't spec into my Amarr Logi suit for drop uplinks, I did so because I wanted 20 armor repair rate a second. That being said, I still don't care that much either way, but I'm hoping for a respec simply so I can max out some of my core skills and ditch the logi suit. Scout suit and nova knives are more fun and I'd rather play like that than spending all my time dropping uplinks with a suit that's already much weaker compared to the other logi suits (Outside of the minmatar anyways) So you chose a logistics suit for a bonus that didn't make any sense in the face of its intended role, of which there was a general consensus among players that it shouldn't have been there in the first place and that people have been waiting to be removed for almost half a year now.* Was the logistics part of the suit even a central part of your decision making? If, yes then you still have your relevant core and EQ skills so that your suit will still fill its intented role decently and you can switch to your now preferred racial variant with minor hiccups. A respec would ease the pain but is hardly necessary. If not, then I have very little simpathy for the emotional argument you bring forth. * I'm not entirely happy with the specific changes to my logi suit either but that has no bearing what so ever on the wholly unrelated subject of respecs. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1138	Posted - 2014.02.24 22:37:00 - [11] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: So you chose a logistics suit for a bonus that didn't make any sense in the face of its intended role, of which there was a general consensus among players that it shouldn't have been there in the first place and that people have been waiting to be removed for almost half a year now.* Was the logistics part of the suit even a central part of your decision making? If yes, then you still have your relevant core and EQ skills so that your suit will still fill its intented role decently and you can switch to your now preferred racial variant with minor hiccups. A respec would ease the pain but is hardly necessary. If not, then I have very little simpathy for the emotional argument you bring forth. * I'm not entirely happy with the specific changes to my logi suit either but that has no bearing what so ever on the wholly unrelated subject of respecs. If you disagree with the changes to the extent that you'd rather switch your class than keep playing the class, then asking for a respec is just avoiding the underlying issue, not solving it. In all honesty, no, I didn't really get it to be a logi, at least that wasn't my main intention when I picked the suit. I liked the idea of having such a high armor repair rate as well as a sidearm, though I eventually started moving a bit further towards the logi playstyle and have found it to be quite fun. As for switching my class, I'm not doing it so much because of the changes, but rather that I'm just tired of having a slow suit that not only will longer have the bonuses that I specced into it for, but will also be focused entirely on uplinks (Something I usually end up doing anyways, but not because I want to) I play this game to have fun more often than not, and while I like winning, I'd much rather be in my scout suit than a logi. Shrugs Basically at this point, what the new bonuses regulate me to is drop uplinks, something I find very boring as it usually involves taking a dropship up to some high place or staying further away from the action to ensure the team actually has somewhere to spawn. Long story short, I'd rather be playing a scout, but if I have to and we don't get a respec, I'll eventually put more points into the logi playstyle to make it better than what it is. Thanks for the level headed reply. I personally think that the drama we currently have, for the most part, could have been avoided and falls mainly under CCP's responsibility. Many players find themselves with the prospect of having millions of SP invested in gear they won't use, because the old bonuses often failed to define a clear niche for the play style they were supposed to encourage and there's little they could do about it besides using foresight in a rather volatile environment. With that said. The changes, while not perfect, pose a great leap in the right direction to give every frame the role it was supposed to promote all along. The roles have not so much been changed but rather fleshed out and the overall approach to fitting and playing the different classes, according to their intended role, has not changed on a fundamental level. While i wouldn't throw a fit if a partial respec happened, the extend of these changes alone doesn't seem to mandate one (let alone a full refund). Both because it would be a precedent for future cases of suit/vehicle+skill bonus changes which will inevitably happen and because there's no reason to refund whole trees that are not affected in any direct way. The only full refund i feel would be unequivocally for the better of Dust would be with the release of all missing racial variants. Doing this would help getting a balanced and diverse composition of suits/vehicles on the battlefield which should enrich the gameplay overall. Even the player market and economy would profit profit from a clean slate. I dearly hope this will be the case with 1.8 so this ongoing discussion can finally end. i've been around for two full respecs now and i didn't feel either had improved the game in any meaningful way. Quite the opposite. The funny thing is: At that time i was the very kind of new player these respecs are supposed to help. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1139	Posted - 2014.02.24 23:40:00 - [12] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: Glances up at quote length Well, this is getting long... Honestly, I like the fact that CCP is trying to help the logi suit actually fulfill it's roll. The logi's right now are essentially better than the assaults in almost every way, more slots, more CPU/PG, and only at the cost of a few HP and hit points that can easily be surpassed with a single module or two. Plus they've got so many equipment slots, there's just not much of a reason to choose assault right now over a logi. The bonuses though just aren't really what I prefer. Not only that, but I can't help but think having the Amarr logi bonuses will actually discourage people from speccing into uplinks. After all, why get into something when militia and basic are all you need to be effective? 20 spawns for a basic uplink? Yes please. Advanced and proto? Who needs em. I agree though, but I can't say I'm looking forward to waiting for CCP to release everything. I can't help but think that we're all basically play testers right now, paying CCP to test their game for them so they can work out the bugs. And yeah, I'm definitely one of those people who have a lot invested in things I don't use. A full respec would give me about 5 million to spare (possibly more) As for the respecs not really changing much... agreed. They really don't, it just allows players to specialize in the things they want a bit faster, regardless of whether or not they have 40 million SP. I know I only invested in things like the Minmatar logi originally and the assault rifles because there was nothing more fun to choose from at the time. Long quotes mean good debate, so, yeah Large changes like these always have some weaknesses here and there. The good news is that further changes will probably more gradual in nature from now on so i'm rather optimistic that everything will turn out well. I agree that the whole "half the stuff is f'in missing!" is a huge downer and i hope that the long time since the last patch indicates at least a large chunk of new shiny. CCP has a history of developing their game(s) well beyond release date even on the most fundamental level so, in effect, we will always be playtesters when playing a CCP game. The upside to this is that, once the backlog of needed changes is mostly dealt with, we can look forward to entirely new features to play with throughout the game's lifespan instead of having to buy the new installment of "Generic FPS 5: Modern Marketing Scheme 2 (now with a new engine that looks slightly worse)" next year. Considering the "waste" of SP you have: Everyone who joined after may and who isn't a pure vehicle user has those. Heck, i will probably abandon my 2.somthing million SP in ARs in favor of either the SCR or the Tac RR once I decided which one (will wait until after the RR nerf to see how it turns out). The important part is that those SP are not actually "gone". Once unlocked you can always use the gear, should you need it. The vast majority of EVE players utilizes only a fraction of their lifetime SP on any task at any given time. Being able to do several things quickly (like changing your role in-battle if the situation requires it) is the whole point of having a large SP pool. Lastly, when talking about the last two respecs. It wasn't so much that they didn't change anything. It just wasn't for the better. I had some 3-4m SP and was able to get some ADV mods and an ADV cal logi from my "wasted" SP and some removed skills. Before, seing a decked-out PRO cal logi meant almost certain death but at least was a rather rare sight. After the respec, no match started without 3-6 ( I'm exaggerating but it was bad ) absolute cookie-cutter fits from both sides which meant that every second encounter was a straight up "fly or die" situation. It got better after a few weeks and then, 2nd respec, and you had even more almost identical killer bees shredding pubs. From this experence i come to expect the same thing to happen every time the wrong people get a chance to "correct mistakes" at the cost of those who could genuinely need some help. *holy bunch-o'-text-batman You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1140	Posted - 2014.02.25 00:19:00 - [13] - Quote Crimson ShieId wrote: [...] It's probably not the best thing though that my biggest reason for not wanting a full respec is so that the FoTM chasers will suffer for abusing certain aspects in the game that are/were unbalanced... There's no need to make the argument on a personal level in the first place. The way i see it, there are just two questions. Does it advance Dust, as a game/product, in any reasonable way in accordance to its initial philosophy/USP? Since respecs, by definition, fly in the face of what New Eden stands for, that's straight up "no" imho. Do the upsides improve the day-to-day experience of the playerbase as whole more than the downsides worsen it? That's debatable and the main subject of this thread. My personal experience tells me "no". No argument was made on the personal level. No one unjustifiably blamed for doing what's perfectly within the rules of the game. Crimson ShieId wrote: And I do enjoy being versatile, though at the moment, there's not much of a reason to choose an AR over a CR. The Tac rifle is okay I suppose, but until RR's get balanced, they're not really worth having. Same probably goes for a few other suits and items. Balance needs improvement, no question. CCP has already said they're looking at the whole range of assault type weapons so we'll see. I'm personally a fan of high alpha, high precision singleshot weapons for just-behind-the lines support so the CR is not my cup of tea. But that's not the subject anyway. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1140	Posted - 2014.02.25 08:20:00 - [14] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Crimson ShieId wrote: ...seeing huge amounts of FoTM fittings after a respec... Well, if items stay OP for a long time (which is the REAL FOTM PROBLEM) players will just *grind SP to get that OP sht*. Increase in FOTM builds might be correlated* to a respec. ......but The real FOTM problem is caused by game imbalance, not respecs. David Hume wrote: Correlation does not imply causation. Bascially correct but note the bolded statements. FOTM chasing currently requires both time and effort. Since both could be spend otherwise, an opportunity cost is attached to the practice. Additionally, right now some things can theoratically be fixed before they ruin the soonGäó economy and everyone's game experience along with it. Respecs make FOTM easier and thus more prevalent, worsening overall perceived balance. This has already been observed two times now, no matter the monocausal/polycausal/correlative relation. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1140	Posted - 2014.02.25 08:36:00 - [15] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Ah, swarm launchers did not stay OP for a long time? Forge guns easymode splash damage OHK infantry since beta? Gallente assault rifles best weapon since closed beta (in one shape or another: First burst, then TAC, then regular when hit detection got fixed)? DIdn't you just say that that's a balance problem first and foremost? Are you implying that, since balance gets borked up at times, we should just screw it and let things get even worse intentionally? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1140	Posted - 2014.02.25 17:54:00 - [16] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Exactly. Respecs are in line with the continuous improvement/agile work methods that I certainly hope CCP are using. They're not and they don't. CCP calls respecs "disruptive" for the community and developers alike. I can look up the quote if you'd like to to see it for yourself. Spectral Clone wrote: Following player (like CCP do) and evaluating what happens after a respec is a great strategy (also a scientifically correct one IMO) to empirically improve the game. Respecs tell them nothing that just looking at some PC matches after a week or so won't tell them anyway. You also provided several examples of OP gear that has survived one or even two respecs without a fix a few posts ago so you contradict both yourself and the historical data available. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1140	Posted - 2014.02.26 04:45:00 - [17] - Quote Since the thread subject seems to morph into "Are FOTM chasers the devil who feasts on your children" i'll just re-post a recent piece of mine that focuses on the subject at hand. Preface: The following is exclusively about a proper on-demand respec feature of any nature or otherwise recurring skill refunds e.g with any new content and/or balance/skill changes. Althought it has some relevance regarding 1.8 in the context of recurring respecs for patches, a full racial symmetry respec in particular is not subject of this post Me wrote: First off, i'll just link this piece from several months ago. The first paragraph deals with the "decisions => consequences" jadda and argues that it, while any individual might or might not agree, in itself has a certain justification to exist. The rest is about how the persistent SP system makes the way both new and old players approach their skill trees in the face of meta changes (such as new content and rebalancing) more interesting by adding a layer of meta-gaming to their decsion making. Next up replayability: In every progression system that is not a WoW clone, half the accomplishment of an endgame viable/competitive build is getting there. I'd argue that the long, often tedious and error prone process of making a powerful, efficient fit is something many players enjoy and there is literally no other product in the market that provides both a classic FPS experience and a deep, harsh yet rewarding progression system to really sink their teeth in and theorycraft around. Respeccing at will reduces this process to the press of a button, possibly coupled with a financial transaction. Kittened up yo fit? Doesn't even matter, click here to try again! You made the perfect fit? So did everybody else who bothered to look at the current PC paradigms and had some spare change (if a paid "service"). For some players punishing faulty skill choices is depressing and balance changes that wreck your fit are discouraging and unfair. For others, making the right decisions and adapting to changes out of their control are part of the game, if not even central to it. One group of players finds a suitable product in almost every modern FPS, especially some of the better F2P ones for PC offer great customization with simple and fair ways to deal with changes. The other has Dust aaand...nothing else really. The last thing, albeit a bit of a stretch is a big concern of mine: Future Economy. The dust economy will most likely end up being similarly complex and engaging as the EVE one in order for them to merge at some point. That means a huge swath of skills with multipliers ranging from 1 to 16, materials, facilities and all that jazz at least on the EVE side of things but probably on both sides. What does an industrialist do if his best running product, e.g. the PRO RR, gets nerfed and people start to switch to the CR? Without respecs, people will mostly be stuck with their RR at first because the CR needs a minni suit to really kick off and an immediate jump is only feasible for those with enough foresight or luck to either have all needed skills already or enough SP saved up to do the transition. The trader would have an opportunity timeframe to adapt ASAP and be the first to produce the CR en masse for huge margins. With respecs? The trader loses the majority of his sales after the patchnotes go live, but before the actual patch gets released. The only way get adapt is to quickly respec all relevant industry skills or be out of busines (so to speak) and the whole process can be over within a few days. The eve side cannot respec. How many capsuleers will spend months of training and possibly trillions of isk to engage in a market so volatile? Keep in mind that they can not possibly prepare for this stuff by just saving SP because their system doesn't allow for this. I know that all these points are more or less affected by: Bad balance Lack of content Lack of game modes (PVE) Unfun mechanics The important part is that balance can only be improved by better balancing -content/modes by adding more of it and PC won't be less of a nigh pointless isk faucet if people can respec. Respecs are a simple and seemingly intuitive way to refresh the game by trying all the stuff out until the actual game gets fun or to make it less punishing for new players until we get them a venue to actually learn the game. But looking at the last respecs we had, none of these issues have gotten any more bearable beyond the first week or so. Respecs, to me seem like a dangerous excuse for CCP to let all these unadressed for longer than necessary because, hey, they're adding respecs... I'd rather they fix the game, honestly. TL;DR: ^ 5500 characters of text ^ You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1144	Posted - 2014.02.27 03:31:00 - [18] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Tallen Ellecon wrote: Zatara Rought wrote: Just here to say as a humble member of the community I am against respecs, but FOR a respec in 1.8 and anytime our invested choices are dramatically altered. I used to have that stance, but that would mean a respec every 6 months to year, and it's not really anti respec anymore. No exception unless they alter the tree itself. We all take the same risk. Every suit bonus in Dust is being changed.... Point being? No one of them changed the respective suits function on a fundamental level. They still fill the same basic role with a little more racial definition. Edit: In case you mean that "changes to the tree itself" part. I'm pretty sure Tallen's talking about changed multipliers and topological changes to the tree. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1147	Posted - 2014.02.27 09:43:00 - [19] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I can't even be bothered to dig out the plethora of examples that show how suits are, in fact, having their fundamental roles shifted around. I'd be fine with a single one. And just to be clear: I'm talking about the broader sense of what a suit is supposed to represent. Not about some fringe edge case that some 20 people might have figured out. If we're talking about "fixed PC squad" levels of build/team minmaxing then I completely agree. But for those people even so much as a 5% sprint speed nerf could easily be enough to destroy your "role" if you just so happen to be the guy spamming the uplinks. So then we're back to respec after, well...anything at this point because somebody will always be able to make this case. The game was never designed with respecs in mind. If the kind of min-maxing you guys practice is not feasible under the current ruleset. Maybe you should change how you guys minmax instead of trying to change the ruleset. DUST Fiend wrote: Your roleplaying comes second to our statistical, in game assets. Meh. Not taking the bait. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1155	Posted - 2014.02.28 06:45:00 - [20] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: The easiest one is possibly the Minmatar Logi. The minny Logi totally eluded me and i agree with this being a case to consider a solution. A full respec for everyone wouldn't be the first thing i'd be looking at though. Master Smurf wrote: Also, take the reasoning of many on uplinks. The mechanic most people used was that of a scout. Use a fast, hard to be detected scout to go behind lines and plant uplinks. So maybe you skill scout and dampening and biotics and uplinks. Now this will still work in 1.8 but because equipment is being nerfed and the Amarr Logi is being given a buff to uplinks, do you still want to go to the hassle of evading to put down an uplink that wouldnt allow fast insertion of troops? - The new mechanic maybe use the logi and place at a forward point and not behind lines so now no real need for scout or dampening. The scout uplink case is interesting aswell but i'd argue that the increased movement speed and overall stealthiness still make it the superior "first rush"type of suit. He only has to offset the Logi spawn rate bonus by reaching the objective a few seconds earlier than the logi could to fill his role. I could be wrong but it looks like this will still be the case, come 1.8. Let me put it thusly: Allowing your allies to quickly secure the perimeter by rushing the objective and dropping mid-tier uplinks is a fitting role for a scout. Maintaining a steady supply of new units through top-tier, bonused uplinks, seems to me like the very definition of a logistics task. So what it should be doing well, it will continue to do well. Master Smurf wrote: I just think in a game that is built on rewarding a person for the decisions they make and forcing them to live with those decisions you cant then change the reasons why people make those decisions and expect them to be happy with it or buy into that philosophy. It becomes meaningless. Basically agreed. But when a problem (bad balance, huge changes) causes a certain symptom (devaluating decisions) then using a treatment (respecs) that, among others, causes the same thing (devaluating decisions) as a side effect doesn't seem effective to me at all . Master Smurf wrote: Back to the Min Logi - Why take away his fast hack time? You probably should take away a low slot or drop base speed so the suit is more reliant on squad tactics to get in and make hacks. That wouldnt negate a Min Scout who already knew they had to skill up hacking if they wanted to maximise their speed and stealth. Giving them an extra low and stamina regen would have been for them to use a codebreaker instead of a cardiac reg. Now all that went Min Logi for that stated purpose will want to switch and they cant be blamed. That's subjective but "taking the objective" doesn't seem like a logistics task for me so i can see why CCP decided to change it to a more appropriate suit namely the scout. I agreed earlier that this is a pretty convincing case of "changed on a fundamental level". But an optional relocation of the Minmatar Logi to Scout would solve this problem almost entirely without affecting the whole game. The dropsuit command trees are symmetric so that should be possible to do. Master Smurf wrote: I'm sure they are other scenarios but I am just speaking of what I know because I am a Lv5 Min Scout. Appreciate the input. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1161	Posted - 2014.02.28 16:40:00 - [21] - Quote ANON Illuminati wrote: i also think the sp for corp leadership should be returned if a person is no longer a leader of a corporation. theres no reason for me to keep mine when im no longer a leader. its sp a man like myself can indulge in and spend on something useful. I wonder why you went through the effort to explain all the issues you feel the current system causes to justify changing it when right here you make obviously clear that you would disagree with a persistent skill tree even if every single one of your earlier concerns where assumed wrong or successfully adressed by CCP. You disagree with the skillsystem on the most fundamental level. Your earlier reasons stated are mere pretext in light of this. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1161	Posted - 2014.03.01 01:06:00 - [22] - Quote ANON Illuminati wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: ANON Illuminati wrote: i also think the sp for corp leadership should be returned if a person is no longer a leader of a corporation. theres no reason for me to keep mine when im no longer a leader. its sp a man like myself can indulge in and spend on something useful. I wonder why you went through the effort to explain all the issues you feel the current system causes to justify changing it when right here you make obviously clear that you would disagree with a persistent skill tree even if every single one of your earlier concerns where assumed wrong or successfully adressed by CCP. You disagree with the skillsystem on the most fundamental level. Your earlier reasons stated are mere pretext in light of this. ummmmmm Huh? how long have u been playing? obviously not long enough. Since around August 2012. How is this relevant? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1161	Posted - 2014.03.01 03:09:00 - [23] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Honestly, more than anything, I think no respec would prove how pointless the CPM is. They are almost unanimous on an SP refund, and this thread is more than proof enough that the majority of players would prefer this option. If CCP decides to ignore all that, then it's pretty clear that they have no desire to listen to us. An idea being popular does not necessarily mean that it's a good one. Those are two seperate things and CCP not going with a respec for 1.8, let alone some regular respec feature, is neither indicative of them not listening nor of the CPM being useless. Whatever the case, it's their game. They will make a final decision at their own discretion and they're ones responsible for the outcome, whatever that may be. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1162	Posted - 2014.03.01 04:36:00 - [24] - Quote bamboo x wrote: Well my respec petition thread got 28 signatures not including myself, so they have to have noticed that. Mine did not as well. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1168	Posted - 2014.03.01 19:43:00 - [25] - Quote ANON Illuminati wrote: as dust fiend said:[...] I respect DUST Fiends integrity, honesty and passion on this matter too much to let this slip. You do not share DUST Fiends position on this subject. He is saying that a persistent skill tree is not working properly with the current state of development. He made clear more than once that, once we reach a stable game that allows for meaningful long term decisions, respec supporters can, and i quote: DUST Fiend wrote: suck it Your statement: ANON Illuminati wrote: [...]theres no reason for me to keep mine when im no longer a leader.[...] Argues for a refund of skills for the sole reason of not being used anymore. It is opposed to a persistent skill system by default. You use DUST Fiends reasoning to support a position that hugely differs from what he, or any 1.8 respec supporter, is actually arguing for. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1178	Posted - 2014.03.04 21:03:00 - [26] - Quote major faux-pas wrote: low genius wrote: D legendary hero wrote: 750+ comments, 13,600+ views and 1,400+ likes. com'on ccp. you lost. the respect must happen. the people demand it the few demand it. wait.. has there been a vote? or your just throwing smoke? There are, in fact, a few polls on the matter. I've mentioned two of those here. In short: Respec for 1.8 is popular. Respecs as an AUR feature are not. Being popular or not has no bearing on whether or not they're a good idea for the game overall, mind you. Those two are entirely seperate concepts and CCP is well adviced not to confuse them when making their decision. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1178	Posted - 2014.03.04 23:37:00 - [27] - Quote major faux-pas wrote: so contrary to what is suggested above, from the poll it seems most want a full respec (ok, 'demand' is open to interpretation) while i agree not all should be decided upon popularity, pissing people off, is, generally speaking, not a good idea. i also have yet to see a succinct set of reasons why a respec is a bad idea. if the aim is to sync with eve, why have an sp imbalance for unbalanced skills based on what was available pre 1.8? Jin, while i do see the fun in pissing people off with aurum respecs... i think i might be one of them... while i can laugh at the rich boys buying aurum tanks, dealing with a mass shifting with flavour-of-the month weapons may get wearing. I think one more respec has never been a problem to anybody. I'd say I'm as much a hardliner on this issue as it gets and I'd support a full global respec after whatever patch finally adds all the missing racial variants of every current role. The 1.8 respec is not the end of the world either since we're getting some broad changes and supposedly the missing suits. The tricky part for CCP here is, if they choose to do a respec, to formulate their reasoning in way that can(read: will) not be used to justify one more, then another one rinse and repeat every other month. There are several reasons why this would be terribad. Balance gets amazingly hard because the meta can completely shift within days after every patch with miniscule changes that would otherwise not even pass the threshold of being worth adopting outside of PC. This means increased performance pressure which will force even more people to follow the optimal paradigm which, in turn, kills diversity. The player economy turns into a volatile mess where you cannot possibly predict anything and every investment is pretty much a gamble, just like many say our skill choices are right now. No one will engage in this kind of market, certainly no EVE player and a merger is completely, -absolutely out of question. Most importantly. They do not actually fix what caused the demand for them in the first place. The issue is not a lack of respecs. It's the sweeping changes that happen after almost every patch and devaluate our skillchoices. They mask the immediate effect to the individual player but can only further amplify the underlying issue. That's why I keep stressing that a popular idea is not necessarily a good one. The thing everyone is asking for in the hope to improve the game can easily do the exact opposite in the long run. CCP has to greatly improve their approach to game balance in order to make meaningful long-term decisions possible. I would equate recurring respecs of any kind as nothing more than a blunt admittance that they're not up to the task and that I shouldn't bother to wait for that to happen any longer. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1179	Posted - 2014.03.05 00:49:00 - [28] - Quote iliel wrote: What about a constant respec option which costs a percentage of SP. For the sake of an example, let's say you may have a respec if you relinquish 15% of your SP. Such a system would make respec's more viable for new players than old ones. Also, having it as a constant feature, CCP wouldn't have to worry anymore about this discussion as they make addiional changes to the game. Just do the math how often you could respec from one 12m SP role to another and regain the penalty to do it again and you will see why 15% is no deterrent. Also, by that ruleset doing what i just described would generally be the superior approach to just hoarding the SP. Needing even three months to regain the penalty (at around 30% of 12m SP) is way faster than conventionally speccing those 12m. No one would bother accumulating more SP than needed for their role. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1194	Posted - 2014.03.08 03:24:00 - [29] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Well, perhaps I should have given some background. [...] No, no you really shouldn't. At the very least for your own sake. The Robot Devil made some unhelpful assumptions about your person but your response can only lead to further personal attacks that are entirely immaterial to the subject discussed in this thread. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1195	Posted - 2014.03.08 06:47:00 - [30] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Still love this thread. 50 pages soon and I mean soon, should we start betting on if we get a respec? Half expect one. What i'm entirely sure about is that we will have this discussion again after every larger patch until CCP adopts a more incremental approach to balance. Respecs, or lack thereof, is not the issue, -never has been and they are no long term solution for anybody but those who disagree with a persistent skill tree by default. The feedback request stickies is where people should devote their energy into instead. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1198	Posted - 2014.03.09 02:20:00 - [31] - Quote Bulldozza Smash wrote: COVERT SUBTERFUGE wrote: Dear CCP, I know you are adverse to the idea of respecs. As Atli Mar said at EVE Vegas in the DUST keynote, the cost of rebalancing is substantial and is disruptive for the community and for you guys. While New Eden is built partly on the premise of living with your choices but there are several good reasons for a respec: Overdue racial parity Racial parity should have been in the game when you launched back in May 2013 but it wasn't. People have spent time and AUR to spec into what we were given but in all fairness had this stuff been in for launch it would have all been taken care of back then. One final respec is all that's needed now that this large (missing) chunk of the game is about to role out. Everything has changed! A lot of the freedom that we have at the moment is being taken away via more accurate racial tech affinities. There will be many with dropsuits and weapons that simply don't synergise. A full infantry respec is the right thing to do here. Increased lore awareness and faction loyalty I have seen many in the community who have found an affinity to one race or another for whatever reasons. I know that I want to go ALL Gallente on my 32 mill SP main and Minmatar on Covert, my 3 mill SP pride and joy. Support the community's love of the lore/races with a respec. We have been loyal We have stayed and supported your game over the past 2 years. We have bought AUR for a game that is incomplete, has been broken, had exploits and things like the 3 month tank stomp that took place when you made vehicles god mode. With PS4 here and many other games around, don't ** on those who have done their part to support your game. If DUST has a 10 year roadmap (and beyond?) then what is one final respec after the first year of release. I don't support respecs normally. I spent my SP wisely on things that accommodated my own strengths and never chased FotMs and I am 100% behind 'living with your choices' but with massive sweping changes and as a reward for enduring the *** clusterfuck of tank ** we had for the last quarter year, do your fanbase right. Sincerely COVERT Completely agreed, if you are going to add vast now content that with greatly alter the game I don't think a respec is unreasonable at all. Respecs for certain weapons yes but a change on this scale need a respec to all skills (except vehicle skills)... I mean corporation management to there are guys out there that spend a tonne of SP on corp skills and now don't need them at all lol. I know that is a bit of a push but i want a challenging and tactical game and the more SP my enemies and allies have to spend the better. Well that's odd... first you quote, in full, COVERT SUBTERFUGE's post and "completely agree" with what he says yet shortly afterwords you strongly imply to be in favor of refunding skills simply because some people might no longer need them. Judging by the last segment of the quote i'm pretty sure that COVERT SUBTERFUGE would not, by any stretch of the imagination agree with this sentiment. His post can not be construed to be in support such a position either. I have an eerie sense of d+¬j+á vu right now. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1205	Posted - 2014.03.11 17:41:00 - [32] - Quote Mell caneva wrote: I think wee need a ful respec, a vehicles and one of infantry, because with the new resistance the turrens are affected too... Everything is always affected by any balance change, if even just slightly. This logic would neccessate respecs after every miniscule change. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1222	Posted - 2014.03.12 16:18:00 - [33] - Quote Congratulations for 51 pages and your dropsuit command respec. See y'all before the medium slot rebalance A.K.A next patch. 1002nd!!! You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1222	Posted - 2014.03.12 16:47:00 - [34] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: So, either CPM was lying to us about being near unanimous on a full infantry respec, or they were completely powerless on this issue. CCP needs to just release a statement saying there will be no respecs, period. Why insult us by giving us a place to "discuss" something that had clearly already been decided, with no intent to actually discuss? "No respecs" has been CCPs default position since... forever and you know that. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1222	Posted - 2014.03.12 16:52:00 - [35] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: So, either CPM was lying to us about being near unanimous on a full infantry respec, or they were completely powerless on this issue. CCP needs to just release a statement saying there will be no respecs, period. Why insult us by giving us a place to "discuss" something that had clearly already been decided, with no intent to actually discuss? "No respecs" has been CCPs default position since... forever and you know that. So why create a DISCUSSION thread for something that was already decided, and therefore had no business being discussed? That's straight up insulting. Because some individuals chose to spam the fora with all the same threads to the point where no discussion could be had on anything. Would you rather they perma banned users? Because that's the only alternative, given the behavior of some that's, again, on display this very moment. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1224	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:03:00 - [36] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: So, either CPM was lying to us about being near unanimous on a full infantry respec, or they were completely powerless on this issue. CCP needs to just release a statement saying there will be no respecs, period. Why insult us by giving us a place to "discuss" something that had clearly already been decided, with no intent to actually discuss? "No respecs" has been CCPs default position since... forever and you know that. this is incorrect, they never said that, infact there were discussing about possibilities at fanfest. what CCP said there will be no more RESETS. classic CCP Shanghai "buy more boosters and STFU" move. A default position is the position preferred before specific circumstances are taken into consideration. CCPs position defaults to "No respecs" unless specific circumstances necessitate a deviation from this default position, be it for technical reasons like incompatible trees (1.3, tanks) or other (cpm/community demand). You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1224	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:07:00 - [37] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: So, either CPM was lying to us about being near unanimous on a full infantry respec, or they were completely powerless on this issue. CCP needs to just release a statement saying there will be no respecs, period. Why insult us by giving us a place to "discuss" something that had clearly already been decided, with no intent to actually discuss? "No respecs" has been CCPs default position since... forever and you know that. So why create a DISCUSSION thread for something that was already decided, and therefore had no business being discussed? That's straight up insulting. Because some individuals chose to spam the fora with all the same threads to the point where no discussion could be had on anything. Would you rather they perma banned users? Because that's the only alternative, given the behavior of some that's, again, on display this very moment. I'd rather they made an official statement that said "We will not be refunding any SP unless we deem it necessary. Thank you." Lock respec threads, link back to that notice. At least that's genuine. Don't get our hopes up when you clearly do not intend to listen to nor discuss the issue with us. I think they did something to that extent up until a few months ago. Didn't help as far as I remember, even though I agree that this would be preferrable if it did. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1224	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:16:00 - [38] - Quote DJINN Marauder wrote: Looks like everyone wasted their times posting their opinions and logic on this thread. Last i checked a dropsuit command tree respec was going to happen. Have they since changed their mind or do you just consider anything but full compliance a complete failure to comply? You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1224	Posted - 2014.03.12 17:30:00 - [39] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Looks like everyone wasted their times posting their opinions and logic on this thread. Last i checked a dropsuit command tree respec was going to happen. Have they since changed their mind or do you just consider anything but full compliance a complete failure to comply? Considering the total lack of discussion by CCP on this issue, and the complete dismissal of the fact that, among other things, Armor and Shield skills are now wasted if you try switching to your new (read: OLD) backlogged suit, well...you're just sol. Buy boosters and deal with it. It's not optimal. I get it. So? Have you ever been willing to settle with less than the full extend of your demands*. Please tell me what kind of discussion there can be when one side is not willing to accept a compromise. For lack of a better term. Not meant to sound judgmental. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1225	Posted - 2014.03.12 18:26:00 - [40] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DJINN Marauder wrote: Looks like everyone wasted their times posting their opinions and logic on this thread. Last i checked a dropsuit command tree respec was going to happen. Have they since changed their mind or do you just consider anything but full compliance a complete failure to comply? Considering the total lack of discussion by CCP on this issue, and the complete dismissal of the fact that, among other things, Armor and Shield skills are now wasted if you try switching to your new (read: OLD) backlogged suit, well...you're just sol. Buy boosters and deal with it. It's not optimal. I get it. So? Have you ever been willing to settle with less than the full extend of your demands*. Please tell me what kind of discussion there can be when one side is not willing to accept a compromise. For lack of a better term. Not meant to sound judgmental. I have on plenty of things. Touting the phrase "your choices matter" then intentionally locking out portions of your player base (who waited patiently for backlogged content) by forcing them to sit on irrelevant SP just in the hopes they'll buy boosters is nothing short of insulting. If CCP doesn't want to do a blanket respec for these things, then they need to open up support tickets again, and take the month going through everyones character who wants to have Shield or Armor skills refunded, and equipment refunded (Armor tanks to shield tanks, shield tanks to armor tanks, or logis who weren't fortunate enough to predict their races choice piece of equipment) This is the only way the respec becomes fair. The way I see it you touch on three central issues here. 1. Dropsuit command skills total multiplier per specialisation = 12 2. Dropsuit upgrades, specifically tank. Plates = 5 including the core skill armor upgrades. Shields are 8, including core skill shield upgrades and assuming you need/used all three on your fit. Using two of them gives us 5 in line with armor 3. Equipment is 3 each with needles and hives sharing the same skill. This gives a total of 12+ (5/8 for shields or 5 for armor) + 3= 20/23 multipliers lost, assuming you need to change your frame, tank and one piece of primary equipment and you don't have a single SP in the new skills, including core ones. When we have two opposing extremes, namely refund nothing or everything. The first approach to find a synthesis would be to refund half the multipliers. Which is 20/2 = 10 or 23/2 = 11,5 In both cases more than half the potentially wasted skillpoints are refunded through the dropsuit command tree alone. This assumes the worst case scenario of having to switch everything you mentioned. More realistic scenarios paint an even better picture. Call me heartless but it seems this compromise is not too evil when it comes to SP refunded/potentially lost. This of course requires everyone to acknowledge that we have two opposing positions and none is to be granted any prior privileges. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1226	Posted - 2014.03.12 18:38:00 - [41] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: All I know is that this thread proves that CCP never had any intent to open up a dialogue with us on this issue. There has been no reason given for their decision, no explanation on what was discussed to arrive to this decision, and no explanation as to why we've been banished to Level R to talk amongst ourselves. Why were we simply not told "No" I still fail to see why you came to that conclusion seing that their answer demonstrably turned out not to be "No". A "yes, but" might not be what you asked for, maybe not even enough, but that's still not the complete negative you make it out to be. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1227	Posted - 2014.03.12 18:44:00 - [42] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: http://dust514.com/news/blog/2014/03/dropsuits-of-uprising-1.8/ After lengthy discussions with the CPM and large amounts of community feedback, the decision has been made to refund all skill points currently spent in the Dropsuit Command tree to playersGÇÖ unallocated SP pools. So, if your preferred racial frame didnGÇÖt previously exist, youGÇÖll be able to switch to one of the newly available suit frames without penalty. That's soooo 16:00pm EVE time. Get with the times, granpa. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1227	Posted - 2014.03.12 19:13:00 - [43] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Malkai Inos wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: All I know is that this thread proves that CCP never had any intent to open up a dialogue with us on this issue. There has been no reason given for their decision, no explanation on what was discussed to arrive to this decision, and no explanation as to why we've been banished to Level R to talk amongst ourselves. Why were we simply not told "No" I still fail to see how you came to that conclusion, seing that their answer demonstrably turned out not to be "No". A "yes, but" might not be what you asked for, maybe not even enough, but that's still not the complete negative you make it out to be. The simple fact is that it isn't fair across the board. Some players are hit harder by this, players who patiently waited for backlogged content. It is a short sighted fix, and I could even forgive that, if they would just talk to us. Apparently even the CPM was pushing for this, yet they still turned it down. Why Where is the dialogue? Where is the reasoning? Why does CCP feel that having skills that don't synergize is good? Why have they banished us to Level R if for no other reason than containment, since discussion was quite clearly not their goal? A compromise is never fair across the board and, honestly, I did the math while writing my above post, not knowing whether it even ends up supporting the argument I was trying to make but it turned out surprisingly close to the painful compromise I expected it to be. Yes, some are hit harder then others. But that includes the ones who have personal, real worries about what kind of precedent any form of respec might pose and whether it might end up being the one to finally break the dam for a progression system they didn't sign up for when they joined the game. You might disagree with these worries and you have every right to do so but they're there nonetheless. And I have to stress again. The CPM pushed for a full infantry respec and got a partial one. That might not be the full extend of what they asked for but they were not turned down by any means. My little crappy math tells me that the vast majority of players got granted more than they were denied. That's what a compromise is all about. Neither gets exactly what they would like so that neither is left completely in the "dust"(huehue). Regarding this thread's existence, it's probably a combination of those two: The idealist says: It's there so that the community can have a focused discussion for devs to look at and asses the overall of a need/demand for a respec along with the supporting arguments from either side. The cynic says: It's there purely to contain the discussion and prevent these threads from flooding the rest of the forum to its detriment. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1227	Posted - 2014.03.12 19:15:00 - [44] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Want to take bets on when the first new respec thread pops up after the 25th? - that is a serious request. 50M ISK said it's probably before that. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1229	Posted - 2014.03.12 19:23:00 - [45] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: LEVEL R Still no clue what that means. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1233	Posted - 2014.03.12 21:35:00 - [46] - Quote Awesome Pantaloons wrote: Yeah, doubt this will get read, but honestly we deserve a weapon respect as well. It is being read alright and, boy, it is a feast. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1236	Posted - 2014.03.12 23:24:00 - [47] - Quote Still salty, hmm? Man i'm a bad person for indulging in this. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1236	Posted - 2014.03.12 23:57:00 - [48] - Quote CLONE ALPHA 001 wrote: CCP please refund weapons and drop suit upgrades. Also don't have lengthy discussions with the CPM they don't know **** and they do not represent the dust community as they were not voted in by us. Next time they won't listen to the CPM and we get no respecs at all, promised. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1247	Posted - 2014.03.13 03:47:00 - [49] - Quote Zaaeed Massani wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Part of me feels like CCP didn't give us enough of a respect. As mentioned, if I'm moving from amarr sentinel to caldari sentinel, I don't need all those armor upgrades anymore. Likewise, if certain suits are getting bonuses with certain weapons, then a weapons respect would go along with it. However, the other part of me is thankful that we at least got a dropsuit command respec. Its better than getting nothing refunded at all. If more people felt like this, the people hating on those who want a respec would have oh so much less ammunition against us. Certified respec hater approves this message. You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...
Malkai Inos Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1252	Posted - 2014.03.13 20:48:00 - [50] - Quote "Hello echo!" A faint but angry set of voices resounds from the abyss: "FULL RESPEC.......Respec....respec......" You can take a benign object, -you can take a cheeseburger and deconstruct it to its source...

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