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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1305	Posted - 2014.07.13 04:50:00 - [17281] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, 2 damps plus a cloak should be all that's needed to dodge the best scanner and best precision out there. Honestly if it were up to me I'd throw away the gallente's damp bonus and the caldari's precision bonus. No scout suit should have them. Here we are balancing E-War for a 3rd time and the gallente is going to end up OP in some way or whatever scan scout is going to end up OP. I hate to say it but I miss the days of the scannerinas. This precision v dampening crap we've got going on is ridiculous. Yeah i remember the good ole days...i was a scannerina back then too lol "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. Kills-Archduke Ferd1nand
Cyrius Li-Moody 0uter.Heaven 6163	Posted - 2014.07.13 04:57:00 - [17282] - Quote Give assaults the precision bonus. 4% per level. Bang bang. Youtuber. Your friendly neighborhood whiskey-fueled merc.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3302	Posted - 2014.07.13 05:08:00 - [17283] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Give assaults the precision bonus. 4% per level. Bang bang. Have you been hanging out with legend too much? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 723	Posted - 2014.07.13 06:40:00 - [17284] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, 2 damps plus a cloak should be all that's needed to dodge the best scanner and best precision out there. Honestly if it were up to me I'd throw away the gallente's damp bonus and the caldari's precision bonus. No scout suit should have them. Here we are balancing E-War for a 3rd time and the gallente is going to end up OP in some way or whatever scan scout is going to end up OP. I hate to say it but I miss the days of the scannerinas. This precision v dampening crap we've got going on is ridiculous. Me, Ghost and a few others have been saying this over and over. Good to see you agree. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5876	Posted - 2014.07.13 06:41:00 - [17285] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, 2 damps plus a cloak should be all that's needed to dodge the best scanner and best precision out there. Honestly if it were up to me I'd throw away the gallente's damp bonus and the caldari's precision bonus. No scout suit should have them. Here we are balancing E-War for a 3rd time and the gallente is going to end up OP in some way or whatever scan scout is going to end up OP. I hate to say it but I miss the days of the scannerinas. This precision v dampening crap we've got going on is ridiculous. Me, Ghost and a few others have been saying this over and over. Good to see you agree. Keep preaching it till it happens. How I Imagine I look when running Minmatar Scout PSN: EVL_Elgost105
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 723	Posted - 2014.07.13 06:44:00 - [17286] - Quote Also, you guys realise when this fails they'll blame us right? Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 166	Posted - 2014.07.13 07:41:00 - [17287] - Quote Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, 2 damps plus a cloak should be all that's needed to dodge the best scanner and best precision out there. Honestly if it were up to me I'd throw away the gallente's damp bonus and the caldari's precision bonus. No scout suit should have them. Here we are balancing E-War for a 3rd time and the gallente is going to end up OP in some way or whatever scan scout is going to end up OP. I hate to say it but I miss the days of the scannerinas. This precision v dampening crap we've got going on is ridiculous. The last post before Ratati coming in was mine saying make bonuses like these: Cal: scan range Gal: cloak duration Amarr: biotic efficacy Min: hacking No precision, no dampening, no mess.
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8740	Posted - 2014.07.13 08:31:00 - [17288] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: I said it before and I'll say it again, 2 damps plus a cloak should be all that's needed to dodge the best scanner and best precision out there. Honestly if it were up to me I'd throw away the gallente's damp bonus and the caldari's precision bonus. No scout suit should have them. Here we are balancing E-War for a 3rd time and the gallente is going to end up OP in some way or whatever scan scout is going to end up OP. I hate to say it but I miss the days of the scannerinas. This precision v dampening crap we've got going on is ridiculous. The last post before Ratati coming in was mine saying make bonuses like these: Cal: scan range Gal: cloak duration Amarr: biotic efficacy Min: hacking No precision, no dampening, no mess. Such terrible choices. You can't give one scout an efficacy bonus and the other three inherent bonuses. Using your example, either you'd either have to give Amarr a straight up inherent bonus to speed or melee or stamina or change it so the other bonuses are towards scan range amp efficacy and codebreaker efficacy. Of course, if you give the Amarr scout a bonus to speed or melee it interferes with the Minmatar scout's thing and if you give it a bonus to stamina we're right where we started. On the flip side, if it doesn't make sense that the highest EHP and slowest scout would have bonuses towards biotic efficacy from a game design perspective. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Aero Yassavi Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 8740	Posted - 2014.07.13 08:38:00 - [17289] - Quote Has it been discussed how cloaked scouts who have been scanned appear? Currently one of the big problems I see with dampening versus precision is that if you do get scanned then your cloak is absolutely worthless and wasted because the red chevron appears over your cloak. Shouldn't it be enough that you show up on radar? So if you know how to identify locations using the radar then you can easily know where to look for the visual distortion, but the cloaked enemy won't have the chevron/wall hack. I know some people want scanned targets to light up like a christmas tree, and they should! Unless they are using a cloak, in which case radar identification only is enough. Amarr are the good guys Their way of the Commando seems right and noble
Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 166	Posted - 2014.07.13 08:45:00 - [17290] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: Such terrible choices. You can't give one scout an efficacy bonus and the other three inherent bonuses. Using your example, either you'd either have to give Amarr a straight up inherent bonus to speed or melee or stamina or change it so the other bonuses are towards scan range amp efficacy and codebreaker efficacy. Of course, if you give the Amarr scout a bonus to speed or melee it interferes with the Minmatar scout's thing and if you give it a bonus to stamina we're right where we started. On the flip side, if it doesn't make sense that the highest EHP and slowest scout would have bonuses towards biotic efficacy from a game design perspective. Ok but you get the general idea. You could change Amarr to something else if you like. Or you could make them all efficacy bonuses. Or just give Amarr a sprint bonus to go with their stamina. We have discussed this before, Eve has fast Amarr ships, why can't dust? Minmatar would still have the fastest strafe and non-sprint speed, and still be good at sprinting. The main point of my post is that we can come up with alternatives to dampening and precision skills.

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1626	Posted - 2014.07.13 09:38:00 - [17291] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Cyrius Li-Moody wrote: Just throwing this out there but an Amarr scout with the numbers as is can tank 600+ EHP scan at 17.8db at 43.5m equip a proto rep hive, and a proto uplink on top of a proto CR and a proto SMG. With that fit you force a Minmatar to use all of his lows for damps plus a cloak giving him literally half the HP of that Amarr scout. Doesn't anyone have any issues with this? At least with the Caldari bonus now that caldari has to have almost HALF that EHP to attain those numbers. I have issues with it but bear in mind they're numbers being worked on and changed as we speak. So other stats may not be altered to compensate. He's asking for quantative suggestions. We'd already discussed plate changes with Rattati, dip i would assume this is in combination. Unless they're running ferro, they're going to gimp themselves. 600 ehp will be for scouts who enjoy LAVs. Knowledge is power
Sinboto Simmons SVER True Blood Dark Taboo 6244	Posted - 2014.07.13 09:49:00 - [17292] - Quote I need to come back here more often. Sinboto - The True Blood Minja Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 1 STB-Infantry (Demolition)
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 726	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:02:00 - [17293] - Quote Aero Yassavi wrote: [quote=Varoth Drac] Such terrible choices. You can't give one scout an efficacy bonus and the other three inherent bonuses. Actually in that example the Gal would also be an efficacy bonus. People forget the Min NK bonus is actually an efficacy bonus as well. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4122	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:39:00 - [17294] - Quote All right, please take a look at the document again. I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. All scouts can get under the focused dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak All scouts can get under the best passive by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Now, please give me feedback and theorycraft with me the most OP FOTM this will spawn, and we will try to counter it. EWAR calculations Please keep this discussion very focused, don't discuss scan falloff or efficacies, just the numbers in the document and resulting scenarios. Thanks and appreciated. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 2156	Posted - 2014.07.13 10:57:00 - [17295] - Quote Those numbers look good to me. Of course, I can't speak for the others. The only thing left is to make people want to use that focused scanner a bit more. (And the suit. Not too much though) I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1626	Posted - 2014.07.13 11:09:00 - [17296] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: All right, please take a look at the document again. I have documented all the necessary and relevant scenarios, I hope. At the top of the document, I have collected the key numbers and tried to put them into perspective. Galogi focused scanner gets the highest range and precision possible, due to it being 1) active, 2) narrow and 3) having a limited duration. This helps establish boundaries that scouts need to live within. That said, by a combination of racial bonuses and dedication of slots All scouts can have similar range, 76m to 91, under the Focused at 100m. All scouts can get under the focused dB by using a cloak, exception Gallente not needing cloak All scouts can get under the best passive by using 2 dampeners and cloak or 3 dampeners Best passive at 2 precision modules is beaten by best dampener at 2 dampening modules This does not require Codebreakers to be in high, so don't assume that is the case. Now, please give me feedback and theorycraft with me the most OP FOTM this will spawn, and we will try to counter it. EWAR calculations Please keep this discussion very focused, don't discuss scan falloff or efficacies, just the numbers in the document and resulting scenarios. Thanks and appreciated. Looks good to me Rattati, maintains a reasonable balance within the limits of the current system. I also appreciate both the Gal Logi being the go to scanner, as well as all scouts having the ability to avoid it, with max dampening. Any thoughts on my earlier suggestion to return a normalised dampening bonus to all cloaks (10%)? Would be very helpful with both fittings and for new bro's, and should be balanced by the limited active time. My though is that the benefits of the cloak should be around the size of the wave (time dampened), not about there only being one viable wave. Knowledge is power
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2451	Posted - 2014.07.13 11:11:00 - [17297] - Quote This numbers seem to be good, but I would prefer more diversity in base stats, Amarr should have better precision, but range should be set to a medium frame level and profile to a decent level. Same for cal and gal in their own EW aspect, cal should have a very long scan range but a higher profile signature, gal should be radar invisible but almost unable to scan enemies. Something like the 3 wise monkeys: "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4124	Posted - 2014.07.13 11:38:00 - [17298] - Quote Brokerib, I will make a note of it. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4124	Posted - 2014.07.13 11:40:00 - [17299] - Quote shaman oga wrote: This numbers seem to be good, but I would prefer more diversity in base stats, Amarr should have better precision, but range should be set to a medium frame level and profile to a decent level. Same for cal and gal in their own EW aspect, cal should have a very long scan range but a higher profile signature, gal should be radar invisible but almost unable to scan enemies. Something like the 3 wise monkeys: "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" They are, they only become similar when they are fitted to the maximum. Practically noone is running range amps on a gallente or minmatar f.ex. The numbers are balanced however so they can if they want. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Varoth Drac The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 167	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:21:00 - [17300] - Quote I approve of separating range bonuses from precision bonuses. However... New numbers FOTM: Cal scout - 4 comp shield extenders 1 comp profile dampener 1 comp range extender Enough CPU for Bk-42 ACR, AScP, flux, adv cloak, adv links 540 hp (453 shield) at 50hp/s shield regen, 3-5s delay Scan range 65m profile 20db. Enough to dampen below Gal logi proto (non-focused scans) and all scout scans except Amarr. Can be scanned by focused scans or Amarr scout scans. Predicted EWAR landscape: Amarr scouts will exist but won't be prevalent as they lack the scan range bonus of current Cal scouts. Cal scouts will still be the highly favored method of providing scans, they just won't use precision and won't expect to pick up scouts. Cal scouts will outmatch Gal logis at scanning since they are better at scanning non-scouts and focused scanners are difficult to use. Counter: Amarr scout - 2 comp precision 2 comp damps 1 comp range 1 comp reactive plate proto cloak enough CPU for duvolle assault rifle, SMG, flux, pro flux links. 353 hp - 278 armor rep 3/s scan range 44m precision 18db profile 19, 17 with cloak. Is this suit strong enough to counter the Cal? It needs the second damp to avoid Gal scans and Gal logi non focused scans. The Cal could counter it by swapping the range for a damp. It would still get a 45m scan range. Are the Min bonuses really on par with this Cal fit? I propose reducing the range to 5% per level or something more reasonable.

shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2451	Posted - 2014.07.13 12:57:00 - [17301] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: shaman oga wrote: This numbers seem to be good, but I would prefer more diversity in base stats, Amarr should have better precision, but range should be set to a medium frame level and profile to a decent level. Same for cal and gal in their own EW aspect, cal should have a very long scan range but a higher profile signature, gal should be radar invisible but almost unable to scan enemies. Something like the 3 wise monkeys: "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" They are, they only become similar when they are fitted to the maximum. Practically noone is running range amps on a gallente or minmatar f.ex. The numbers are balanced however so they can if they want. I'm not a big fun of numbers and spreadsheets, my head start turning with all those rows and columns, but as someone else said cal scout is still too good at dampening and precision is not bad at all. My first concern is that some suits will have both the ability to see and to be invisible and that is not fair. The ability to "see" is far more powerful than stealth, if you see something, you can avoid something, if you can see and not be seen at the same time, you become OP. PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 727	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:37:00 - [17302] - Quote Setting aside the flatulence in here... While a Cal could stack range amps, he's really only annoying mediums and heavies. And will be making himself vulnerable to Amarr and Gals and any Gal logis he annoys.. These numbers actually look pretty good. I'd certainly give them a go. Min still loses out on the EWAR side. But that's the norm right? (trollface.jpg) Though one thing: for Amarr, Cal and Gal, the potential to be a walking radar is still there. Any decisions made yet for squad sight? As that somewhat simplifies things; an amarr with every mod filled with precision and range amps can come after me all he wants. That's fine. It's his squad of heavies I'm a little more concerned about. And yes barbershop. This is me reversing my position on passive scans. I'm realising just how hard it makes balancing. My response was a knee-jerk reaction to the vitriol directed at the "wall haxors" that I probably took more personally than I should have. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4131	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:47:00 - [17303] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: ^ Do you mind opening a window or something before you let rip? While a Cal could stack range amps, he's really only annoying mediums and heavies. And will be making himself vulnerable to Amarr and Gals and any Gal logis he annoys.. These numbers actually look pretty good. I'd certainly give them a go. Min still loses out on the EWAR side. But that's the norm right? (trollface.jpg) As a scrub I don't see anything specifically that I'd exploit the hell out of. Though one thing: for Amarr, Cal and Gal, the potential to be a walking radar is still there. Any decisions made yet for squad sight? As that somewhat simplifies things; an amarr with every mod filled with precision and range amps can come after me all he wants. That's fine. It's his squad of heavies I'm a little more concerned about. And yes barbershop. This is me reversing my position on passive scans. I'm realising just how hard it makes balancing. My response was a knee-jerk reaction to the vitriol directed at the "wall haxors" that I probably took more personally than I should have. Correct me if I'm wrong but Minjas can triple shield tank, 2 dampen, codebreaker and cloak and be invisible to all but galogi "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 672	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:48:00 - [17304] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: All right, please take a look at the document again. [...] Thanks and appreciated. I can see where you are going with this. I haven't found a flaw in the Scout-vs-Scout interactions after brooding over the numbers for a few minutes. I'd still prefer a solution focused on tweaks rather than redesigns, but let's just roll with it. Regarding the most preferable suit for my ordinary pub-romps I'll be running a brick tanked CalScout. Low profile, huge range, ~700 ehp. I may die to an Amarr Scout once every few matches, but even in that case I can just switch to a dampened fit and keep the upper hand. Looking at the fate of medium suits I'd suggest looking at the numbers with base scan range set to 15 or 17 meters. eWar was very powerful before the 1.8 buff and after 1.8 dropped it became so dominant that medium frames suffered. It is very difficult for medium frames to dampen below Scout precision levels so we end up in a situation where all the ehp in the world doesn't help when your enemy sees you coming from 60 meters away. My preferred way of solving this is reducing base scan range because we already know how that feels from pre-1.8. FYI: In 1.7 I used to run an advanced GalScout with two range amps. My kdr jumped from 2.0 to 3.0 in a matter of weeks. That was with 15 meters base scan range (+30% lvl 3 GalScout skill bonus). So that's the history behind my disapproval of long scan ranges.
Floyd20 Azizora Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 63	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:55:00 - [17305] - Quote ok, lets see what i can find here. like what the amarr could be(through i can imagine double precision becoming standard, as there is not really anything else to take those high slots at the moment) cal scout switching precision with profile is interesting, through i should point out that it wont be able to take full advantage of both due to its very low ... low slot count. This might be better served on the gallente scout (actually gal scout being the big scout hunter race might not be a bad idea, to fit with gal logi at same time) gal scout is interesting, more so when you have shown lows of extra hp while staying under amarr scouts precision. min scout is not changing. i worry about all scouts being able to hide fairly well with little effect, bar amarr(which has to make a big choice to hide well.) and we could well see shotgun scouts coming back in a big way. also, is this confirmation that profile and precision do round in dust?
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3306	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:55:00 - [17306] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but Minjas can triple shield tank, 2 dampen, codebreaker and cloak and be invisible to all but galogi The Minmatar Scout doesn't have the PG to do that. They can 3x dampen adn 2 complex shield, 1 enhanced shield and proto cloak. But to run a proto cloak and a proto codebreaker they suffer both a loss of shield extender levels and weapon levels Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 4131	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:57:00 - [17307] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but Minjas can triple shield tank, 2 dampen, codebreaker and cloak and be invisible to all but galogi The Minmatar Scout doesn't have the PG to do that. They can 3x dampen adn 2 complex shield, 1 enhanced shield and proto cloak. But to run a proto cloak and a proto codebreaker they suffer both a loss of shield extender levels and weapon levels We are bumping up PG in the Min scout in Charlie "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1627	Posted - 2014.07.13 13:57:00 - [17308] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but Minjas can triple shield tank, 2 dampen, codebreaker and cloak and be invisible to all but galogi The Minmatar Scout doesn't have the PG to do that. They can 3x dampen adn 2 complex shield, 1 enhanced shield and proto cloak. But to run a proto cloak and a proto codebreaker they suffer both a loss of shield extender levels and weapon levels Hence the request for the cloak dampening bonus to be normalised across all tiers Knowledge is power
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon 2451	Posted - 2014.07.13 14:11:00 - [17309] - Quote Don't get me wrong, i'm not against this numbers, but i prefer more marked differences. BTW, this changes are very good and we will have time to test them. PSN: ogamega "Dust is full of communist who despise people with enough isk to buy expensive items"
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3306	Posted - 2014.07.13 14:18:00 - [17310] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but Minjas can triple shield tank, 2 dampen, codebreaker and cloak and be invisible to all but galogi The Minmatar Scout doesn't have the PG to do that. They can 3x dampen adn 2 complex shield, 1 enhanced shield and proto cloak. But to run a proto cloak and a proto codebreaker they suffer both a loss of shield extender levels and weapon levels We are bumping up PG in the Min scout in Charlie Ah, so Codebreakers are moving to the high slots? They've got the same PG cost as shield extenders and I like when the scouts give up their primary tank for their suits' proficiency Appia Vibbia for CPM1 Empress of Alts



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