I would like to say that the Min Scout is fine is PC.

Just went like 15-4 in PC

But it was against Phoenix Fed.....

Not sure if that counts....

One problem, and it's a historic one so I don't know how much it still applies, is that once upon a time Logi had no extra slots above the Assault (now hold on, before everyone says I'm gibbering mad, let me break out some context)
See if look at the Assault base stats by race, and then use mods to bring Logi suit base stats up to at least meet them (again by race) there were no extra slots (arguably you still had more slots to work with because of equipment but Eq really isn't 1:1 with other fittings slots so that's an entire mess of it's own). What you had when you normized fittings this was was Logi coming out with a roughly proximate attribute profile but at the cost of higher ISK and SP investment per fitting.

So, balanced, in a sense, but there were flaws.
1) Logi had more equipment, that costs even more ISK and SP to field and put a heavy strain on fittings, but it was still a possible advantage.
2) Assault, higher base stats means greater raw gains from many skill buffs
**** Roughly balanced at this point, numbers could be tweaked to bring it in line but it's at least conceptually workable

However then we get to
3) Attribute balance; simple fact is that not all mechanical assets of a frame are worth the same amount, or worth the same in any given context. What this means in simple terms is that even though it cost more to do so the logistics suits ability to heavily specialize into one or two attributes via mods outperformed the assault suits native all around effectiveness.

This was then further exacerbated by the flawed role and race buffs (Extender efficiency anyone?)
To further muddle the waters, CCP started fiddling with individual numbers outside of a cohesive context tossing a systemic refinement out the window.

Long story short (too late) aside from the issues with how medium frames balance against other frame types the internal balance is a mess. A logistics suit geared for support costs more (both SP and ISK) while having a lower average eHP and DPS than it's racial Assault counterpart, meanwhile that same Assault fitting will often be outperformed by a Logistics fit modded to be a pure slayer. End result being that both medium frames are sup-optimal at their basic roles, and underwhelming in general.

A lot of the angst from players elsewhere in the forums regarding scouts (and honestly heavies to an extent as well) is a simple misunderstanding of context. They're trying to take the deeply flawed medium frames and use those as a baseline for comparison.

Right now the medium frames aren't balanced between each other (even within their roles there are disparities between the races), they aren't balanced against the other frames out there and they aren't scaled within 'risk vs reward'. It's a mess and it's no wonder RinTinTin is looking at doing some complete overhauls before things are in working order.

0.02 ISK
Cross

@cross
Homogenise the highs and lows, introduce new slots, weapon mod slots with a variety of options, logi's get 1, lights and heavies (Maybe sentinels at 3) 2, Assaults 4.
And there was much rejoicing
If only...

Anyway, the way I see it that would sort the more isk and sp investment side of things. (maybe)
Seeing as how CCP seems to want to tie bonuses to modules and such, assault bonuses could then be tied to these.
Amarr bonus to Heat sink mods, Minmatar to Ammo expansion mods and so on.

But alas, these are the dreams of yesterday.

Thanks for the context Cross. I played Min Assault for 6 months so I got used to under performing, but I've never played a Logi.

That said, I don't see why logi suit geared for support shouldn't have lower eHP and DPS? In a support role I would expect that. I understand that there is a greater finacial risk in using a fully kitted logi, but as a force multiplier in squad play they're unequaled in their ability to generate WP.

(1) How many players would trade speed, eHP, DPS, (and a higher average cost in SP and often fits) for 1-3 extra equipment slots? (2) How many PC team leads would rather have that?

If the slot count is right ...

(1) All of them.
(2) All of them.

Source: 2013

PS: Lots of good reading here and in the Broker / Kage threads. Good stuff as always, Cross. o7

(1) How many players would trade speed, eHP, DPS, (and a higher average cost in SP and often fits) for 1-3 extra equipment slots? (2) How many PC team leads would rather have that?

It doesn't

How about making xDestruction go negative in an ERA PC?

Seriously, that fit destroyed his slayer Cal Scout. 380 shields is nothing to a Duvolle with Damage mods in CQC

Doesn't count.

What does count? How about that!?

Anything I say.

I don't know how that goes over in this crowd, many of us chose the lowest eHP suits and that had speed that was ineffective for ten + months. Aim Assist, and Bullet Slowdown negated speed, but we had stealthGǪ except every installation gave away our position, and 360-¦ Active Scanner spam negated that. A scout suit does not function without a huge SP investment either, particularly Min Scout, as it requires a lot of SP investment just to be able to fit modules as needed. Admittedly since 1.8 that got better if you don't fit a cloak.
We stuck that out, forged a strong community and honestly in my opinion are weather the worst storm yet being FOTM. Most of us just want a decent balance in the game, just like you. Of course opinions on balance differ for a multitude of reasons. You'll find a few of us that prefer to be slightly UP because we prefer the reward of the challenge above all else.

Yeah that group of Minja by the kegs, and those two Spooks with the Pistols, thats our hard mode crew

I actually appreciate all your input around here Cross
Keep it up.

Some shield changes that CCP Likes

Aeon and I discussed these and noticed that Kageoshi was almost DEAD ON with what we were talking about.

BTW, Aeon has some great ideas on balance. I encourage you guys to hit him up on Skype if you want to chat with him. He was very helpful.

Yup

Testing shield-tanked CalScout ...

---

PW: K5 Specialist SG
SW: M209 SMG
HS: Shields (x4)
LS: Range Extender, Damp
EQ: Cloak, Compact Hive
GR: Flux

---

453 Shields, 87 Armor
Sprint - 8.01
Scan Profile - 21dB / 24dB (cloak on/off)
Precision / Range - 27dB / 50m

If you're gonna be a d*ck, why not double down?

PW: Creo SG
SW: Ishok SMG
HS: Shields (x4)
LS: 1 complex reactive (OR complex Range), 1 enhanced reactive
EQ: F/45 (OR triage rep), Compact
GR: M1 Locus

---

453 Shields, 197 armor (3/s regen)
Sprint: 7.85
Profile: WGAF
Range: 35m Precision: Scouts not running damps

The effect was called "slowdown on hit" and was a base value, optimized for the AR, but it was tiny and AR ruled supreme so noone noticed. Now that HMG and CR are prevalent, this became an issue due to their higher ROF.

We could have changed every value to the AR value divided by the AR ROF times every weapons ROF to balance it out, but we didn't. We just put every value for every weapon to zero. There is, and I say it as certainly as I can, no way the AR is stunlocking.

:: Scratches Head ::

Field Name: Slowdown_On_Hit

Stunlock? Do you have Video Evidence of this so-called "Stunlock"?
- Dev

Not that I'm complaining ... thank goodness its gone, and thank goodness for Rattati :-)

This **** makes me laugh, either they were incompetent or they're lying to us now and have changed nothing.

While CCP are actually bothering to respond, thought I'd put up a request. Let me know if you can think of any specifics you'd like to know.

MATHAMATICAL!

:: Scratches Head ::

Field Name: Slowdown_On_Hit

Stunlock? Do you have Video Evidence of this so-called "Stunlock"?
- Dev

Not that I'm complaining ... thank goodness its gone, and thank goodness for Rattati :-)