Only right twice a day?

OHHH I see what you did there.....clever....+1 sir

We can't make a bonus for an equipment based off of one race of one suit. Combat roles need to vary across the races. Not make one master race to rule them all. Despite my future love of my caldari scout suit.

Yes the scout event has brought peoples paranoia up by quite a bit. Soon people will realize "oh if i equip that I don't have to worry about that scout anymore nor anyone else. "

That's only one person in a squad of 6 that has to move from a proto side arm and nade to a std side arm and std nade. You guys have to remember that people talk to each other over comms and relay intel. Also scanners display your location to entire squads, not just one guy.

You can't rely on people being idiots. Not every match is your average derp filled pub match.

An easily counter-able scout becomes useless in a competitive setting.

I'll just link this back up since I love this spreadsheet so much. I wish I could remember who the original author was.

Scanning and scouts 1.8

Scouts need only apply 2 complex damps to beat focused scanners now. Except for one case. Gal logi focused duvolled. Even then, you need only worry about getting scanned and visible for 7.5 seconds every 40 seconds. Huge windows of opportunity. Over 30 seconds to find the gal logi and kill em good.

Also, only 100 m range with a 60 degree angle.

Yes Caldari scouts make sacrifices to accomplish this. As we should. But we can.

Take home point Scouts, a force not easily countered

I'll just link this back up since I love this spreadsheet so much. I wish I could remember who the original author was.

Scanning and scouts 1.8

Scouts need only apply 2 complex damps to beat focused scanners now. Except for one case. Gal logi focused duvolled. Even then, you need only worry about getting scanned and visible for 7.5 seconds every 40 seconds. Huge windows of opportunity. Over 30 seconds to find the gal logi and kill em good.

Also, only 100 m range with a 60 degree angle.

Yes Caldari scouts make sacrifices to accomplish this. As we should. But we can.

Take home point Scouts, a force not easily countered

Your willingness to give up your only 2 low slots doesn't account for every scout in the game. Allow me to give you a slap in the face to snap you out of whatever state you are in. Requiring a scout to use 2 dampeners full time is a BAD decision.

Requiring a scout to use 2 dampeners full time is a BAD decision.

1) The cloak dampens you as well, which will allow one to forgo a damp on a low if you can manage your cool downs effectively, which I image will be a skill that will need mastering

2) Scale up in dampening as necessary, you only need to run it high for those particular situations (or drop it entirely for a pure slayer fit if your not a gal scout and can't dodge it at all)

1) The cloak dampens you as well, which will allow one to forgo a damp on a low if you can manage your cool downs effectively, which I image will be a skill that will need mastering

2) Scale up in dampening as necessary, you only need to run it high for those particular situations (or drop it entirely for a pure slayer fit if your not a gal scout and can't dodge it at all)

I'm sorry if this upsets you personally Moody. But If you go with a Caldari scout....don't expect to get free stealth. Sounds like you want every scout to be gallente....and that's not what we're talking about.

I also don't want to gimp the caldari suit's role. (Yes Ruthless Lee I have an alterior motive ) What's the point in having a scout with super precision if you can't ever scan another scout? Dampening on medium frames has always only been a novelty at best, so limited utility there if any. The best use of the caldari scout is as an anti-scout suit with a large passive scan area acting as support for a squad or perhaps running interference for a squad.

In my opinion, caldari scout is not going to be the stealthy behind the lines ninja. As Cyrius Li-Moody has so eloquently pointed out multiple times, Caldari scouts have only two low slots. With an inherent bonus to scan range, it makes sense for them to capitalize on that with a range mod and maybe a complex damp. But they will never achieve a stealth role as well as gallente scouts will.

Sounds like we have a division of combat roles. Working as intended as far as I'm concerned.

Yes which is what the system is going to be now that I like. A good scout who can manage his cloak stamina will only have to run a dampener when they pull out a focused.

@ Driftward
Oh right the old link is dead; here is the updated one: LINK: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdFhORUVidFFTOEhpUG0xOVRUb0pkakE&usp=sharing

I assumed that the 'Cloaking Field' and the 'Profile Dampeners' don't give each other stacking penalty. Once we know if they do (or don't) I'll update the table again.

@ Iron Wolf Saber
Can you ask CCP if 'Profile Dampeners' and the 'Cloaking Field's reduction to 'Scan Profile' is stacking penalized when added togther or if they are like a DCU and Resistance plating?

Nice chart, but was 6 significant figures really necessary?

@ Driftward
Oh right the old link is dead; here is the updated one: LINK: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvYSJ6FRJlihdFhORUVidFFTOEhpUG0xOVRUb0pkakE&usp=sharing

I assumed that the 'Cloaking Field' and the 'Profile Dampeners' don't give each other stacking penalty. Once we know if they do (or don't) I'll update the table again.

@ Iron Wolf Saber
Can you ask CCP if 'Profile Dampeners' and the 'Cloaking Field's reduction to 'Scan Profile' is stacking penalized when added togther or if they are like a DCU and Resistance plating?

Lol no but I couldn't be bothered to change it once I finaly managed to upload it to google docs. ^_^

You jumped in in the middle of an impassioned argument. My point is that the cloak dampening bonus is OP. Cyrius' point is that he wants his cake and eat it too (sorry couldn't resist). ie he dislikes that caldari scouts get the short end of the stick as far as suit profile goes with only 2 low slots.

So that's why 1) doesn't really apply to this discussion.

However, your second point is perfect and absolutely right on.

Appreciate it. Though it was easier to read on the older one....regardless I think this discussion is boiling down to how we think gameplay should go.

1) Driftwards side (I get #1 so hah): There should be a hard counter to scouts/cloaks. That counter should be active scanners. It should require massive difficulty in fitting (to the point of why bother) to beat those last 3 or 4 rows on the table. Also, that the focused scanners are gimped in terms of everything (range = 100 m, angle = 60, cool down = 40 sec, only 5-7.5 second scan visibility) except scan precision. To my thinking, as long as I can beat a prototype scanner (without a gal logi behind it) and it doesn't gimp out my suit (1 basic dampener currently) that's reasonable.

2) Cyrius': Scouts should be able to beat all scanners with a reasonable fitting. Somewhere using 1 module slot or less.

We aren't going to be able to come to an agreement as these game play paradigms are mutually exclusive.

Obviously I'm of the opinion that #1 is more balanced, but we also haven't gotten these on the ground yet so time will tell.

[Edit: What should I change about the new table to make it better/easier to read?

*snip*

Edit: What should I change about the new table to make it better/easier to read?

@ Profile vs Precision
Let's see how the dice fall before we start tweaking things.

Says the guy who is basically posting *my* argument that I had posted in this thread about removing profile bonus, to the feedback thread.

you posted your stuff there at 2014.01.23 17:26.
I posted https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1755240#post1755240 at 2014.01.23 05:15 , 12 hours earlier.

Clever, that.

My 1st question would be - What do we think should win out?
- And then work from there.

I think it is bad for balance if a scout can go long periods of time being essentially undetectable so there should be one method of reliably detecting a super-damped, invisible scout. However, to prohibit this one method from being spammed and making scouts irrelevant, it needs to have incredibly stringent conditions that vastly limit its versatility. In other words, I think the focused should be unbeatable (at the least when held by a gal logi). If its current 1.8 downsides (high pg usage, 5 sec scan visibility, 40 sec cooldown) aren't enough to prevent it from being constantly used, the scanner could be further nerfed.

As for the rest of the proto scanners, I think we should be able to beat all of them with just a single damp (cmp damp for a gal logi proto scanner and a bsc for a normal proto scanner).