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4 man squads in Pubs? Then give us Team Deploy in FW!!!!

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Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:23:00 - [1] - Quote I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches. Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks. That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here. Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months. Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!! Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!! Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy No Context 4	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:29:00 - [2] - Quote And you do have a point. Gone are the days of "I wanna FW but I'm too lazy to start a Q-sync and have to put up with organization, backing out, syncing, SLs..." Now it can just be "lets start a q guise" and get it up with a few invites Sniper Rifles are for Nitrogenous Dioxide Borons I am the Anti-FoTM
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 17	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:30:00 - [3] - Quote ALL HAIL HYPNO TOAD! "To find out if they consent, poke the giant boobs. If they jiggle once, that means no. If twice, that means yes" - Anon
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:45:00 - [4] - Quote I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:46:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Did someone lose their anti-psychotics? I think I just saw soraya make a reasonable post. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 06:55:00 - [6] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. I like how your have abandoned you original support for team deploy, especially in light of the compromise of getting 4 man squads in public matches . Team deploy is something that the community has asked for a long long time. In all honestly solo players can get their matches in pubs and organized groups of four or more can look forward to easily going into meaningful fights in FW. If a solo player is willing to take the risk of entering into a difficult game mode like FW then they take that risk on themselves. Full teams already go against non full teams in FW and your logic only limits the ability of those players that aren't queue syncing to organize and provide opposition. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:06:00 - [7] - Quote I've always held that the largest difference in balance isn't gear, or even individual skill, but the size of a coordinated group. Having a 16-man team against even... two 8-man groups or an 8-man group and two 4-man groups is a HUGE success differential. If you talk about solo players potentially being in the mix, the joke gets even funnier. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:11:00 - [8] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've always held that the largest difference in balance isn't gear, or even individual skill, but the size of a coordinated group. Having a 16-man team against even... two 8-man groups or an 8-man group and two 4-man groups is a HUGE success differential. If you talk about solo players potentially being in the mix, the joke gets even funnier. Full 16 man teams will still deploy to FW. It will just be more awkward for them to set up than if we had team deploy. Is there really much point in not making it easy?
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:19:00 - [9] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've always held that the largest difference in balance isn't gear, or even individual skill, but the size of a coordinated group. Having a 16-man team against even... two 8-man groups or an 8-man group and two 4-man groups is a HUGE success differential. If you talk about solo players potentially being in the mix, the joke gets even funnier. Full 16 man teams will still deploy to FW. It will just be more awkward for them to set up than if we had team deploy. Is there really much point in not making it easy? The fact that they shouldn't be able to do it at all but can, is not a reason to enable them to do so easier. If the game had enough people playing, queue syncing wouldn't be feasible. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 886	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:20:00 - [10] - Quote I support full 16-man team deploy in FW. You can't stop team queuing anyway, so at least give EVERYONE the tools they need to easily put together their own platoons at the corp, alliance, and public level. Besides, pubs have matchmaking logic and they will soon accept no grouping larger than a 4-man fireteam. If that doesn't scream equity, I don't know what does. That said, let's make FW a place where the meta is decided by player activity, ambition, and organization. There's no need to protect players in two game modes.

Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:41:00 - [11] - Quote Quote: Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! That's the whole point why it's not there. FW is intended for casual players who intend to get a bit better. With full team deploy in FW you will lock out randoms completely or make every single match a stomp. FW is not supposed to be a Pseudo Corp Battle. That's what PC is there for and that's why CCP is making it easier for corps to get into PC. If you want full 16 on 16 matches go into PC. FW is supposed to be different. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 298	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:42:00 - [12] - Quote Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Quote: Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! That's the whole point why it's not there. FW is intended for casual players who intend to get a bit better. With full team deploy in FW you will lock out randoms completely or make every single match a stomp. FW is not supposed to be a Pseudo Corp Battle. That's what PC is there for and that's why CCP is making it easier for corps to get into PC. If you want full 16 on 16 matches go into PC. FW is supposed to be different. Whoa whoa whoa, FW is NOT casual at ******* all. You're literally affecting systems in EVE Online on a massive scale!! Bring Team Deploy to FW! We've been asking for this for too gosh damn long! >:( CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 887	Posted - 2015.06.29 07:51:00 - [13] - Quote Personally, I think splitting queues sends the message that the meta for FW doesn't matter. If that's what it takes to broker a compromise on this issue, then so be it, but it really doesn't make sense if we are to believe that the results of FW battles in Dust matter to EVE.
Hawkin P Molon Labe. RUST415 659	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:06:00 - [14] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut it you. You have done quite enough. I don't think I have ever said this before and probably never will again, but Kain is right. Dust is a desolate wasteland these days. It has gotten this way because too many people want to talk about things and wait to see if something will get better, instead of implementing immediate change. This game is dying and near death. Full 16 man Team deploy is something that should of been added years ago along with the introduction of PC, and added to pub matches. 8 man squads are a hollow gesture. 4 man squads WTF? Really? You can have 4 man squads now just form a 4 man squad. It makes me laugh to think that is is going to be a feature that is boasted about. The whole point of dust is getting to play with your corp, playing with large squads. Practicing for PC. 8 man squads is not enough and 4 man squads is just really the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Molon Labe CEO
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 693	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:10:00 - [15] - Quote There's a reason why there is no matchmaking in FW and its the same reason why there should be team deploy ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:22:00 - [16] - Quote Team deploy. Please. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide
J0hlss0n Molon Labe. RUST415 205	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:35:00 - [17] - Quote GÇ£Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal. Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name." ... and yes, team deploy is needed.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 890	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:51:00 - [18] - Quote J0hlss0n wrote: GÇ£Cattle die kinsmen die all men are mortal. Words of praise will never perish nor a noble name." ... and yes, team deploy is needed. Speaking of kinsmen...
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:53:00 - [19] - Quote I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first. It's not a major problem in my eyes as we still have syncing that can be done. But there are other concerns as well with the final introduction of the fireteams, Squad and Platoon that I have which haven't been addressed yet. Namely WP unlock levels for each level of squad size. A 16 man team will garner enough WP to a full OB in a matter of a couple of minutes, probably quicker. Going against another Platoon is fine, going against two squads with the same WP requirement for OB but less players is frankly stupid. So first we need to determine a fair and scaled level of WP requirement for each size of 'squad'. For that we need data. And this is exactly way it's full deploy in PC, Squads in FW and Fireteams in Pubs. When the data is available then full TD in FW will happen with the correctly scaled OB requirements. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 08:56:00 - [20] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first. It's not a major problem in my eyes as we still have syncing that can be done. But there are other concerns as well with the final introduction of the fireteams, Squad and Platoon that I have which haven't been addressed yet. Namely WP unlock levels for each level of squad size. A 16 man team will garner enough WP to a full OB in a matter of a couple of minutes, probably quicker. Going against another Platoon is fine, going against two squads with the same WP requirement for OB but less players is frankly stupid. So first we need to determine a fair and scaled level of WP requirement for each size of 'squad'. For that we need data. And this is exactly way it's full deploy in PC, Squads in FW and Fireteams in Pubs. When the data is available then full TD in FW will happen with the correctly scaled OB requirements. I'm sorry but the community has asked and waited for team deploy long enough. It's time to rip off the bandaid. There are times to throw caution to the wind and charge forward with progress. This is one of those times. To put things in perspective here are threads dating back to 2012 asking for team deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=231803 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=512586 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=390856 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=920479 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104107 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=922358 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=85273 Original Dev intention of Team Deploy in FW: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=111664 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116266 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=117177 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116032 Devs working on team deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1410067#post1410067 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124987 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123829 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124992 Devs mentioning the desire the implement Team Deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1559253#post1559253 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126295 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128200 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128516 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133236 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133081 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=132343 Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

megan starkiller MANUFACTURERS OF DEATH 0	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:04:00 - [21] - Quote You could also do the exact same thing with OB support in eve online, but faster. The only difference is that the pilot has a potential risk of losing his ship and/or pod.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:07:00 - [22] - Quote Soraya again beeing useless as expected. Do you know whats going to happend with 8 man squads? Do you? OBVIOUSLY NOT! What you seem to forget that there is a negative impact for FW if you dont give us team deploy. The people that did q-syncing will continue to do that but with 8 man squads (which is 50% of the team). So when one squad gets deployed and the other doesnt then the squad that gets deployed leaves the match and lets the 8 randoms hanging. You are actively pushing to encourage that matches will start uneven. Cause then its not 16vs16 but rather 8vs16 which is a extreme disadvantage. And please elaborate where a solo playing scrub in FW ever made a difference cause those guys usually end up at the bottom of the scoreboard. Must be a bliss to be ignorant like some on the CPM. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:15:00 - [23] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Soraya again beeing useless as expected. Do you know whats going to happend with 8 man squads? Do you? OBVIOUSLY NOT! What you seem to forget that there is a negative impact for FW if you dont give us team deploy. The people that did q-syncing will continue to do that but with 8 man squads (which is 50% of the team). So when one squad gets deployed and the other doesnt then the squad that gets deployed leaves the match and lets the 8 randoms hanging. You are actively pushing to encourage that matches will start uneven. Cause then its not 16vs16 but rather 8vs16 which is a extreme disadvantage. And please elaborate where a solo playing scrub in FW ever made a difference cause those guys usually end up at the bottom of the scoreboard. Must be a bliss to be ignorant like some on the CPM. 16 man -qsyncs will still happend regardless what you think about it Soraya. All you achieve is beeing annoying for all partys involved. While a bit harsh. I'd have to agree with the sentiments here. A failed queue sync makes for an even worse match when half the team leaves. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:16:00 - [24] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut it you. You have done quite enough. I don't think I have ever said this before and probably never will again, but Kain is right. Dust is a desolate wasteland these days. It has gotten this way because too many people want to talk about things and wait to see if something will get better, instead of implementing immediate change. This game is dying and near death. Full 16 man Team deploy is something that should of been added years ago along with the introduction of PC, and added to pub matches. 8 man squads are a hollow gesture. 4 man squads WTF? Really? You can have 4 man squads now just form a 4 man squad. It makes me laugh to think that is is going to be a feature that is boasted about. The whole point of dust is getting to play with your corp, playing with large squads. Practicing for PC. 8 man squads is not enough and 4 man squads is just really the stupidest thing I have ever heard. "The game is dying and near death... so lets implement changes that will edge out casuals and allow 'organized' players to *wring the very last ing drops of life out of the game". If you want this game to get to a 'healthier' place, you need to accept, encourage and allow for 'casuals' to play. Steps also need to be taken to prevent them to get their faces ground into the dirt at every opportunity. Eg: We had the 'mu' changes that sorted us into high and low brackets... what happened with high bracket players who didn't like being in the high bracket? they recycled alts every *ing day to play in battle academy where they could grind new people into the dust, because how dare someone be new and not know that these egomaniacs are the kings of dust. Of course this happened before dust because egomaniacs like to stroke their ego, but we don't need more ways for mediocre players (myself included) to be able to win all day every day forever and edge out anyone who would fall into being a more casual player. I play facwar almost daily. I am in a q-sync almost daily. I win >90% of my matches in those q-syncs that i play in every day because organizational advantages are way too damn good. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:19:00 - [25] - Quote Bring back Corporate battles and none of this matters. (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:22:00 - [26] - Quote It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:23:00 - [27] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Huh? OBs from Eve are based on Time not WP....... Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:37:00 - [28] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Huh? OBs from Eve are based on Time not WP....... Correct.. You're mistakenly looking for ulterior motives where there is none Dennie. Insinuating ** like this is petty and below you. Founder & CEO of Fatal Absolution** Skype: Zatara.Rought Email: Zatara.Forever@gmail official pawn of ArkenaKirkMerc
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:52:00 - [29] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Here we go again a CPM who doesnt even play the game. Eve OB's are based on the time that the EVE PILOT is orbiting the satellite while being connected to the district. WARBARGE OB's are based on WP earned by the mercs on the ground. Get your facts stright before posting nonesense cause after all you are a CPM who is supposed to know these things. PS: you just leaked a fact that squads/platoons are indeed going to be just bigger squads with just one leader. Thanks for that information so while beeing useless you provided some very vital information for PC and what can be abused next. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:56:00 - [30] - Quote Reign Omega wrote: Bring back Corporate battles and none of this matters. We get Platoons in FW and we basically have the return of Corp Battles. Two platoon leaders get on voice in a channel and select opposing factions, "3, 2, 1, GO!" BOOM corp battles 2.0 This is another reason to not delay letting Platoons deploy into FW. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:57:00 - [31] - Quote I'm agnostic on Team deploy for FW. The desire is certainly there but the potential for imbalance is high, so dunno, tbh. Regarding fairness in Pubs, 4 man squads are welcome but shared scans bear a huge chunk of the responsibility for poor player experience in Pubs. When people say 'protostomped' i believe what they're experiencing is the power of shared scan coupled with voicecomms. PSN: RationalSpark
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 09:59:00 - [32] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: I'm agnostic on Team deploy for FW. The desire is certainly there but the potential for imbalance is high, so dunno, tbh. Regarding fairness in Pubs, 4 man squads are welcome but shared scans bear a huge chunk of the responsibility for poor player experience in Pubs. When people say 'protostomped' i believe what they're experiencing is the power of shared scan coupled with voicecomms. Its called teamplay. Some people should try it i heard its OP. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:12:00 - [33] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: I'm agnostic on Team deploy for FW. The desire is certainly there but the potential for imbalance is high, so dunno, tbh. Regarding fairness in Pubs, 4 man squads are welcome but shared scans bear a huge chunk of the responsibility for poor player experience in Pubs. When people say 'protostomped' i believe what they're experiencing is the power of shared scan coupled with voicecomms. The thing is team deploy has already been implemented in code it just lacks the UI and forces the manual q-sync we are all familiar with. 8 man squads won't stop groups like State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, or even Negative-Feedback from q-syncing. What it will do is prevent other players from being able to easily form their own teams to deploy that could directly challenge those syncs. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:23:00 - [34] - Quote Kane, has boosting LP between 16v16 platoons been discussed here? It seems there would be a low barrier for entry for that practice if platoon syncs entered FW. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:32:00 - [35] - Quote Basically, coordinate with the other team to shuffle around players using stacked faction boosters to optimize their LP gain with reduced effort/great match result certainty. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Edgar Reinhart Resheph Interstellar Strategy Gallente Federation 110	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:34:00 - [36] - Quote Despite some of the sentiment I have expressed in some earlier posts I'm not totally against team deploy IF the sentiment was 'we need team deploy to have good matches.' Unfortunately I get the impression (and admittedly my knowledge of FW is much more limited than most. I've only really been playing Gal FW for the last few months, solo and in small squads. Currently sitting on a W/L of 0.19 for the month woooo) that currently Qsyncing isn't about doing it to get the best, most exciting match possible but to get the easiest, most risk free way to reduce the grind and get some FOTM's. Like I said this may not be the case and I'm not having a go at, or trying to insult/troll the people who are able to make the effort to organise themselves. However the number of times I've been in matches recently and seen qsyncs drop out of matches opposite each other is pretty damning and the fact that over the last month every single match has been a stomp for one team or the other makes the game mode seem a bit of a joke to be honest. You either run around almost unopposed (even me in the Frontline suits which are all I have) to earn your 1000 odd LP or you d*ck around in the redline to earn your 200 odd. I don't see how having full teams help this..... but I do understand how they help the community and friends play together etc which is important and clearly something that there is a call for. Does it make sense for example therefore to automatically put people in FW into 16 man teams at the start of the match? The question is if there was a mode where people could deploy a 16 man team to in order to have a guarantied fight against another 16 man team, that wasn't PC and offered similar reward opportunities to FW/PC, would the current qsynchers in FW go there in order to get some good fights or would they stick around in FW for the stomp? Anyway after this weekend I just need 50 more defeats to get my first APEX so see you all around the redline.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:51:00 - [37] - Quote I don't know about our groups but State Task Force can attest to our sync actively hunting them down. Our guys enjoy going against syncs as an instant redline really isn't that entertaining. Sometimes our syncs are full corp members and others it 's just friends that hang out in a channel togther. Edgar, with platoons in FW you could very well gather up a group of folks using the squad finder and some of the faction channels to challenge the other syncs that may be out there. Jadek, I've synced 32 people even in the current system and with 8 man squads that will be easier. People that want to do something nefarious will likely have the organization to do it whether it's 8 man squads or 16 man platoons. Not allowing the UI would just block those that may only have one person to organize the group from forming up a sync. To me probably the most critical thing about having platoons in FW is that it would make it MUCH easier to jump start FW in the mornings to the point where we might be able to get FW going not too long after downtime. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 10:54:00 - [38] - Quote The reason why Gallente is getting smacked in FW currently is because people are like sheeps. They saw that good corps q-synced for caldari which was at the time when the caldari where a utter joke and considered to be the worst faction out off all 4 factions. So the gallente players switched over to avoid facing proper teams. With a full 16 man team deploy you can shake things up and keep jumping between factions to punish the players with the sheep mentality that follow the good players around. With team deploy you can aswell just go ahead and que for all 4 factions at once and it will deploy you into a match thats avaible sooner. And nothing stops you from forming your own 16 man team, heck you could set it to public, fill up and then deploy into a FW match. The quality of players on the squadfinder is deffo better then the random scrub that you encounter who is not willing to squad up in the first place. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 697	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:02:00 - [39] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Basically, coordinate with the other team to shuffle around players using stacked faction boosters to optimize their LP gain with reduced effort/great match result certainty. People will always want to exploit and they could do so with the current setup (with a bit more effort) Any mass exploitation would hopefully be easy to spot for CCP ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 504	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:02:00 - [40] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut up scrub

Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 788	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:03:00 - [41] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I've always held that the largest difference in balance isn't gear, or even individual skill, but the size of a coordinated group. Having a 16-man team against even... two 8-man groups or an 8-man group and two 4-man groups is a HUGE success differential. If you talk about solo players potentially being in the mix, the joke gets even funnier. Dude, there should be "serious" game modes offered for the competitive. One is PC and the other should be FW. For my RPers, FW is serious biz and it has been a long, long time since FW has been a place of tourism. I say throw the training wheels to the side. Put away the safeguards. In other words, stop being held back by thinking of the solo player. There are corporations and teams who are dedicated to FW but hampered by the solo player (or griefed by them). You solo? Nice! Now off to pubs with ye! You want tougher comp and organized warfare? Good! PC and FW is for you! PC is a bit daunting to you? That's fine, build your resume/reputation in FW with a racial corporation hell bent on dominating FW! That's how it should be dude. If you want to solo in FW, no problem. But the game mode should encourage you to join a comm channel or a corporation. FW is hampered by wanting to bring the casual, LP whores to the game mode. FW and PC should be end games. FW now is a pub match with item benefits. That sucks. Allow team deploy. Encourage organized tactical play. Saying what's on people's minds
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 504	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:05:00 - [42] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: Hawkin P wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut it you. You have done quite enough. I don't think I have ever said this before and probably never will again, but Kain is right. Dust is a desolate wasteland these days. It has gotten this way because too many people want to talk about things and wait to see if something will get better, instead of implementing immediate change. This game is dying and near death. Full 16 man Team deploy is something that should of been added years ago along with the introduction of PC, and added to pub matches. 8 man squads are a hollow gesture. 4 man squads WTF? Really? You can have 4 man squads now just form a 4 man squad. It makes me laugh to think that is is going to be a feature that is boasted about. The whole point of dust is getting to play with your corp, playing with large squads. Practicing for PC. 8 man squads is not enough and 4 man squads is just really the stupidest thing I have ever heard. "The game is dying and near death... so lets implement changes that will edge out casuals and allow 'organized' players to *wring the very last ing drops of life out of the game". If you want this game to get to a 'healthier' place, you need to accept, encourage and allow for 'casuals' to play. Steps also need to be taken to prevent them to get their faces ground into the dirt at every opportunity. Eg: We had the 'mu' changes that sorted us into high and low brackets... what happened with high bracket players who didn't like being in the high bracket? they recycled alts every *ing day to play in battle academy where they could grind new people into the dirt, because how dare someone be new and not know that these egomaniacs are the kings of dust. Of course this happened before dust because egomaniacs like to stroke their ego, but we don't need more ways for mediocre players (myself included) to be able to win all day every day forever and edge out anyone who would fall into being a more casual player. I play facwar almost daily. I am in a q-sync almost daily. I win >90% of my matches in those q-syncs that i play in every day because organizational advantages are way too damn good. Play pub matches. Or spend 2 extra minutes to get in an organized match. We've tried Soraya Scrub 514, it sucks
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 504	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:09:00 - [43] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I've always held that the largest difference in balance isn't gear, or even individual skill, but the size of a coordinated group. Having a 16-man team against even... two 8-man groups or an 8-man group and two 4-man groups is a HUGE success differential. If you talk about solo players potentially being in the mix, the joke gets even funnier. Dude, there should be "serious" game modes offered for the competitive. One is PC and the other should be FW. For my RPers, FW is serious biz and it has been a long, long time since FW has been a place of tourism. I say throw the training wheels to the side. Put away the safeguards. In other words, stop being held back by thinking of the solo player. There are corporations and teams who are dedicated to FW but hampered by the solo player (or griefed by them). You solo? Nice! Now off to pubs with ye! You want tougher comp and organized warfare? Good! PC and FW is for you! PC is a bit daunting to you? That's fine, build your resume/reputation in FW with a racial corporation hell bent on dominating FW! That's how it should be dude. If you want to solo in FW, no problem. But the game mode should encourage you to join a comm channel or a corporation. FW is hampered by wanting to bring the casual, LP whores to the game mode. FW and PC should be end games. FW now is a pub match with item benefits. That sucks. Allow team deploy. Encourage organized tactical play. Solo player could literally type LFS in a FW and keep jamming to his tunes, not listen to a word the FC says and play as they would before. They just wouldn't have 15 other solo people ensuring their teeth get kicked in. Oh, and not to mention that because of team deploy FW would stay up for most of the day. For the love of the Dust Gods quit listening to people that want to hold the team play in this game back.
nelo kazuma Ecce Initio RLC. RUST415 298	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:09:00 - [44] - Quote Only real issue I see with this is the match making system .it be allot more data to comb through with 8 spots trying to find appropriate match for each sqd not to mention if lets say a 7n7 are on both sides the amount of data configuration required to fill those missing spots depends on the formula ccp uses for its matchmaking system. Only way this wouldnt cause a issue is if matching making went back to what is was and autofilled spots no matchmaking at all. (Which in my opinion doesnt matter anyway cuz its broke as hell right now anyway) so in closing yes I want 8 man sqds but current system needs to go if this is ever gonna work or if team deploy is ever a possibility we just dont have the high amount pf players for it to function right FOR THE STATE ^(-_-) Cal Loyalist For Life
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:12:00 - [45] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: Only real issue I see with this is the match making system .it be allot more data to comb through with 8 spots trying to find appropriate match for each sqd not to mention if lets say a 7n7 are on both sides the amount of data configuration required to fill those missing spots depends on the formula ccp uses for its matchmaking system. Only way this wouldnt cause a issue is if matching making went back to what is was and autofilled spots no matchmaking at all. (Which in my opinion doesnt matter anyway cuz its broke as hell right now anyway) so in closing yes I want 8 man sqds but current system needs to go if this is ever gonna work or if team deploy is ever a possibility we just dont have the high amount pf players for it to function right There is no match making in FW only a team builder system that prioritizes players based on group size in a first-come-first-served basis. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 697	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:12:00 - [46] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: Only real issue I see with this is the match making system .it be allot more data to comb through with 8 spots trying to find appropriate match for each sqd not to mention if lets say a 7n7 are on both sides the amount of data configuration required to fill those missing spots depends on the formula ccp uses for its matchmaking system. Only way this wouldnt cause a issue is if matching making went back to what is was and autofilled spots no matchmaking at all. (Which in my opinion doesnt matter anyway cuz its broke as hell right now anyway) so in closing yes I want 8 man sqds but current system needs to go if this is ever gonna work or if team deploy is ever a possibility we just dont have the high amount pf players for it to function right No matchmaking in FW ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:26:00 - [47] - Quote Platoon Deployment for FW is an absolute necessity. I've made several posts about how depressing it is that Lucent Echelon and State Task Force actually try to fight each other and most of the time can't. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Yokal Bob Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 11:40:00 - [48] - Quote Hawkin P wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut it you. You have done quite enough. I don't think I have ever said this before and probably never will again, but Kain is right. Dust is a desolate wasteland these days. It has gotten this way because too many people want to talk about things and wait to see if something will get better, instead of implementing immediate change. This game is dying and near death. Full 16 man Team deploy is something that should of been added years ago along with the introduction of PC, and added to pub matches. 8 man squads are a hollow gesture. 4 man squads WTF? Really? You can have 4 man squads now just form a 4 man squad. It makes me laugh to think that is is going to be a feature that is boasted about. The whole point of dust is getting to play with your corp, playing with large squads. Practicing for PC. 8 man squads is not enough and 4 man squads is just really the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Team deploy should not be in pub matches, are you having a laugh? Solo/casual plyers have a hard time as it is with the lack of matchmaking sticking all of them together against 2 or 3 squads. As for FW I'm not really for it, but as it affects EVE in such a way, I understand the logic behind it and willing to accept it. Vote Dust for PS4
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 12:07:00 - [49] - Quote FW with team deploy would be a nice way to train up aswell some people who ar not used to advanced tactics and aswell have a training ground for people who want to lead PC matches. Cause currently there is no way to train people into leadership roles as the method that is currently in PC which is: let a guy try to lead and then when he fails he shouts random orders and starts to rage. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Jammer Jalapeno Dox You. Proficiency V. 246	Posted - 2015.06.29 12:16:00 - [50] - Quote Maybe if we say pretty please they will listen hahah!!! MmMmMm Glitter

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 504	Posted - 2015.06.29 12:18:00 - [51] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: Maybe if we say pretty please they will listen hahah!!! I've promised oral several times and we still don't have it
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 3	Posted - 2015.06.29 12:59:00 - [52] - Quote Give us Team Deploy now. +1
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:15:00 - [53] - Quote Jammer Jalapeno wrote: Maybe if we say pretty please they will listen hahah!!! No we need to overcome the obstacle thats in our way and that is Soraya Xel and Iron Wolf Saber. They obviously are not interested that the majority wants. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
D4GG3R 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:20:00 - [54] - Quote 3 cpms and kain in one thread? Must be christmas I'm pretty plain. I watch anime for the boobs
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:52:00 - [55] - Quote Team deploy could be very damaging to new player ability to participate if no changes to the queue system were made. What you have to remember is that the FW system places priority on squads meaning that if randoms were searching there would be a high probability of them just getting passed over many times until they become cannon fodder for a 16 man team. 8 man squads are going to hurt queue syncs and they are going to hurt new player interaction with FW. Yet again FW players are left responding to a half ass fix because PC gets all of the attention without any real merit to that. As I have been doing lately I will toss out my usual rant of "Get NPC orbitals OUT of FW before you do anything else" Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Her Chosen Grade No.2 335	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:59:00 - [56] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden That dark cloud Latest Upload
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:04:00 - [57] - Quote Team deploy in FW should help newer players by moving vets / more organised players away from pubs, thus making it safer. In my opinion it was a mistake to put gear in the loyalty store with lower sp requirements, as it encourages new players into a mode designed for harsher competition.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:04:00 - [58] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Regnier Feros Pielords 418	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:11:00 - [59] - Quote +1 team deploy would lessen the hassle of forming qsyncs, this also might make fw more competitive & appealing to the community. ZariaOwnsWhips
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:14:00 - [60] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes. Break it how? You can already deploy a full team to FW right now it's just gated behind a cumbersome methodology that limits team deploy to those that know how to execute it rather than it being as straightforward as "start platoon, deploy platoon". All you are doing by trying to limit platoons deploying to FW is protect the organized syncs that are already there! More syncs in the mode means more competition in the mode! You will always have public play that offers full match making protection to smaller groups and solo players. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:22:00 - [61] - Quote The problems I see with letting platoons into FW are: 1. When you've got a full 16 man team, or even a not quite filled 12-15, there isn't really room for anyone else to get in on that faction fight. You're locking people out of a match because a corporation wanted to grind some faction gear. 2. If two 16 man teams are set up on opposing factions to 'kick start' each other, it's just going to be those same 16 man teams killing each other again and again every single fight until: A. They get bored of stomping the not as good team. B. They get tired of being stomped by a better team. C. They lose enough members of their team who have actual lives that they can't continue fighting and they don't want to recruit randoms on the squad finder. 3. Your corporations are kick starting factional warfare? That's great! But what happens when your corporation backs out for one reason or another? Suddenly we're either back to where we started with needing to pick up strays for a five minute wait for a single match, or we're up against the other team who hasn't gotten the message that your corporation has left the field. Which means they'll either get bored of less competition and leave themselves, making it even harder to find a match, or they'll **** their god damn pants at the easy pickings, making it even harder to win a match, making the strays who went in for their factional gear drop out and make it, again, harder on both sides. You guys have eight man squads now. You will be fine not having a full 16 man team to completely wipe the opposition. And if you absolutely need your full team to win, it's a lot easier to sync up now since two squads will fill up the scoreboard, rather than two and two-thirds of a squad.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:22:00 - [62] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes. Break it how? You can already deploy a full team to FW right now it's just gated behind a cumbersome methodology that limits team deploy to those that know how to execute it rather than it being as straightforward as "start platoon, deploy platoon". All you are doing by trying to limit platoons deploying to FW is protect the organized syncs that are already there! More syncs in the mode means more competition in the mode! You will always have public play that offers full match making protection to smaller groups and solo players. It breaks it because in the current system squads hold absolute priority based on size for who gets into the contract. Allowing 16 man squads to hit deploy on FW would give them the contract every time and shut out every person that is not in a 16 man squad effectively killing FW for anyone that does not know the FW channels or does not get the tap from the FC of those channels. Basically allowing 16 man squads would require a much needed reworking of the queue for fw which is obviously not happening anytime soon thanks to PC being the focus. What people are also missing is the fact that 8 man squads are also going to nerf most queue syncs because of how that system works. The uneven numbers is what kept 16 man queue syncs going because we were able to build squads that forced our team to take the contract. To give a basic example of that lets say that an 8 man squad is already searching therefore they have priority based on the timer. 2 8 man squads from XYZ channel hit search trying to sync. which ever of those squad leads hit search first is going to enter the match with that 8 man squad that was already searching while the other squad becomes the one with next priority. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:27:00 - [63] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: The problems I see with letting platoons into FW are: 1. When you've got a full 16 man team, or even a not quite filled 12-15, there isn't really room for anyone else to get in on that faction fight. You're locking people out of a match because a corporation wanted to grind some faction gear. 2. If two 16 man teams are set up on opposing factions to 'kick start' each other, it's just going to be those same 16 man teams killing each other again and again every single fight until: A. They get bored of stomping the not as good team. B. They get tired of being stomped by a better team. C. They lose enough members of their team who have actual lives that they can't continue fighting and they don't want to recruit randoms on the squad finder. 3. Your corporations are kick starting factional warfare? That's great! But what happens when your corporation backs out for one reason or another? Suddenly we're either back to where we started with needing to pick up strays for a five minute wait for a single match, or we're up against the other team who hasn't gotten the message that your corporation has left the field. Which means they'll either get bored of less competition and leave themselves, making it even harder to find a match, or they'll **** their god damn pants at the easy pickings, making it even harder to win a match, making the strays who went in for their factional gear drop out and make it, again, harder on both sides. You guys have eight man squads now. You will be fine not having a full 16 man team to completely wipe the opposition. And if you absolutely need your full team to win, it's a lot easier to sync up now since two squads will fill up the scoreboard, rather than two and two-thirds of a squad. Thats not right you still would get deployed with small squads/solo. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:28:00 - [64] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: madness I categorically disagree with you on pretty much all of your objections. Pubs are the designated "safe space" with matchmaking and smaller squads. Faction Warfare and PC are supposed to be hard mode and "I get to pick whose wheaties I get to sh*t in" hardmode respectively. There is no reason to cordon off two game modes for the benefit of people who do not wish to cooperate. Carebear protections should only be allowed so far. After a certain point they are detrimental to the game. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:35:00 - [65] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: madness I categorically disagree with you on pretty much all of your objections. Pubs are the designated "safe space" with matchmaking and smaller squads. Faction Warfare and PC are supposed to be hard mode and "I get to pick whose wheaties I get to sh*t in" hardmode respectively. There is no reason to cordon off two game modes for the benefit of people who do not wish to cooperate. Carebear protections should only be allowed so far. After a certain point they are detrimental to the game. The only time carebares should be taken into consideration is pub matches. Everything else they need to htfu. I dont know why people come into a heavily team based game and wanting to go solo and get mad when they aren't getting the full experience out of it. Imagine when SOCOM came out, and some guys complained that they prefered doing that 1 man army vs the entire Russian mafia crap they see all the time in video games. There are some people that are tired of that, and for those people we have DUST. Lucent Echelon Chat Channel is fixed
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:37:00 - [66] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: The problems I see with letting platoons into FW are: 1. When you've got a full 16 man team, or even a not quite filled 12-15, there isn't really room for anyone else to get in on that faction fight. You're locking people out of a match because a corporation wanted to grind some faction gear. 2. If two 16 man teams are set up on opposing factions to 'kick start' each other, it's just going to be those same 16 man teams killing each other again and again every single fight until: A. They get bored of stomping the not as good team. B. They get tired of being stomped by a better team. C. They lose enough members of their team who have actual lives that they can't continue fighting and they don't want to recruit randoms on the squad finder. 3. Your corporations are kick starting factional warfare? That's great! But what happens when your corporation backs out for one reason or another? Suddenly we're either back to where we started with needing to pick up strays for a five minute wait for a single match, or we're up against the other team who hasn't gotten the message that your corporation has left the field. Which means they'll either get bored of less competition and leave themselves, making it even harder to find a match, or they'll **** their god damn pants at the easy pickings, making it even harder to win a match, making the strays who went in for their factional gear drop out and make it, again, harder on both sides. You guys have eight man squads now. You will be fine not having a full 16 man team to completely wipe the opposition. And if you absolutely need your full team to win, it's a lot easier to sync up now since two squads will fill up the scoreboard, rather than two and two-thirds of a squad. Thats not right you still would get deployed with small squads/solo. Nope, he hit hit the nail right on the head. In FW squads have priority based on size. Currently a 6 man squad gets priority over a 4 man squad for example. As much as I want to see team deploy in FW I also do not want to see it destroyed or even worse see it become some exclusive club for those of us that have the ability to round up 15 other people. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:44:00 - [67] - Quote Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:48:00 - [68] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Two people out of however many others who wanted to get in on a factional match, but can't because a corporation took up nearly an entire scoreboard and there aren't enough extras for a second battle to happen. Seriously. Eight man squads are fine. Other people want to play your game, too.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 236	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:50:00 - [69] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Sorry, but I agree with the outraged player base. CCP Dust has not been gentle with releases and now they want to slip in slow? CCP doesn't do QA due to their dev team's size. If you are going to be cowboys, then be fing bada55 cowboys! Roll out team deploy and ride the wave. It is how you have done everything else. This inconsistency is what is pissing everyone off here. Examples: Lets add in cloaks, 3 months of shotguns and REs in the back raining and the nerfs come down Blue Bottles and HMG nerf side by side - PC meta flipped on its head, districts flip like pancakes, pub stomping frustrates everyone, 3 months later - nerf to half Swarm Gate - Just going to state that every DS pilot raged so hard, the cost of DS was dropped by half to compensate If you are developing big, then watch the outcome then do that. Commit like you always do. Even if it is a blow out, you will take 3 months to figure it out and adjust. From the CPM response (Just wow. I thought most of you were dead or something), something is brewing, but if we have learned anything, CCP and the CPMs won't stop anything bad in Dust themselves (Injustice is never fixed by CPMs or CCP Devs suiting up and righting it), you wait and code the mistake out. Make the change, rip the band aid off then swing to the appropriate level. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:02:00 - [70] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Obviously you only understand half of how Eve OB support works. You are correct that payment for pilots is based on orbitals dropped. What you are incorrect on is the fact that WP has anything to do with that. Eve orbitals happen as soon as the satellite is captured which takes 3 minutes assuming no enemy shows up and contests it. NPC orbitals absolutely DESTROYED the Eve link. I covered this subject in depth during the FW event that Maken Tosch hosted. Dust players having no idea when these are available ensures that most pilots will not bother with attempting orbital support. The only thing that needs to be "ripped off" is NPC orbitals getting ripped out of FW like how it was originally intended to work. That is the only way you will even have a chance at Eve players starting to care again. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 991	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:14:00 - [71] - Quote I have a question for those in favor of Platoons in FW: What prevents your version of FW from turning into the version of PC that we are actively trying to move away from? Currently, new players are excluded from PC (With full team deploy) because the corporations or groups competing with each other are fighting for something important to them - It's "serious business". Non-competitive players, or players that don't have the the highest level of gear are kept out. Under this new FW system, what is to prevent a ~10M player who is interested in FW from being kicked from the squad because Serious FW channels want their best 16 to compete because your enemy will likely have their best 16? If there is only one queue for FW, and platoons are allowed in FW, then I foresee a second coming of the same stale game mode that is being overhauled as we speak. But I would like to hear some opinions to the contrary I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:19:00 - [72] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Let's look at it this way. A 14 man platoon deploys. There is only room for two more people on that team to join. Sure, two people get in, but who all is excluded? The solo players who weren't lucky enough to be picked by the game. The people who are squadding up to try to get into a match who have more than two people. And why form a squad of only two people? Who would even do that? So. If there is a 14 man platoon getting into a factional, anyone with a squad of 3-15 players isn't going to be able to get in. They are being blocked from the match. And do you know how many people there are going to be that have squad sizes ranging from 3-15? Nearly all of them. There are going to be squads from different regions, and if you don't speak Spanish you're not going to join a Spanish team, right? You won't join a Japanese team if you can't talk with them. If you don't have a mic, you're obviously not joining the squad that says (Mics only). There are going to be a wide variety of squad sizes in the squad finder, and very few of them are going to fit that exact number to fill in the gap that your buddies in your platoon caused when they had to leave. And the rest are being left to hang. There will be very, very few, if any, squads that are even in the double digits. Even fewer that work effectively as a team. Especially ones that are made up of randoms. A bigger problem is that a lot of those squads are doing different factionals. Even if you find a good sized squad or platoon, they may not be doing a factional you want to do. Or they may be doing several factionals, like Min/Gal. But what if you do Am/Gal Or Min/Cal? You don't want the chance of getting pulled into a battle against your factions. You can't join them. But it's not so much that those people can't get into that one match. It's not that at all. It's that there aren't enough people who do factional warfare in general, let alone the appropriate factionals to get a battle started, for decent matches to even happen when that one corporation that is starting up matches all by itself decides to leave. Allowing platoons into FW will pretty much ensure that only corporations are going to be playing because corporations are going to be the most frequent players and they'll be the most organized because they all know each other and communicate. You won't be able to get into a FW unless you're in a corporation that actually wants you in that battle. It's already frustrating enough going up against full corporations in FW. Do you know how much more frustrating it would be to be in a corp that does FW battles, only to be denied because 'Sorry, I don't think you're good enough and I don't want you throwing the match for us'. Locked out of FW not just because corporations would own them, but because someone else's opinion of you isn't high enough to let you play with them. 8 man squads at least give a chance for other people to get into the fight. And it's a much easier number to get to, as well as easier to fit onto a scoreboard that already has a few people in it. I don't want FW to become a cheap alternative to PC.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:24:00 - [73] - Quote It's supposed to be a competitive mode. You enter solo? You enter underskilled? This is a simple thing: Entering FW or PC means you pays your money, you takes your chances. Neither are intended to be solo, nor new player queues. Pubs are there for safe places from stompers. You're getting squads reduced to 4 to lessen that effect. Pubs are the ONLY intended safe haven from stomps. And there is no reason for other game modes to be subordinated as safe havens as well. Part of the original intent was for players to graduate FROM pubs to wars in FW, and organized corps that formed out of pubs and FW would move to compete in PC. The progression is: Academy --> Pubs --> FW --> PC. Going Academy --> FW isn't exactly part of the intended progression, but you can do it. The game mode is not walled off. but matchmaking doesn't rule here, and the mobs of organized squads are brutal as hell to fight. Because of that, there is no reason to further punish organized groups by preventing them from using FW as their "moneymaker" grounds or PC training areas. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aikuchi Tomaru Subdreddit 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:25:00 - [74] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: Aikuchi Tomaru wrote: Quote: Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! That's the whole point why it's not there. FW is intended for casual players who intend to get a bit better. With full team deploy in FW you will lock out randoms completely or make every single match a stomp. FW is not supposed to be a Pseudo Corp Battle. That's what PC is there for and that's why CCP is making it easier for corps to get into PC. If you want full 16 on 16 matches go into PC. FW is supposed to be different. Whoa whoa whoa, FW is NOT casual at ******* all. You're literally affecting systems in EVE Online on a massive scale!! Bring Team Deploy to FW! We've been asking for this for too gosh damn long! >:( You affect a small number. We can't even chose where to deploy. It is a bit above casual, but it's the entry point for casualy who want to get a bit more serious. Allowing full team deploy for it would scare these newbs away again. Why not use the fact that PC is now more accessible to smaller corps and cheaper to get into? Raid a district if you want good fights. If you would use Team Deploy in FW all the time you will get matched against full teams of randoms every now and then. Especially because so many people still haven't figured out that the game doesn't take into consideration if your squad is a corp squad or just a squad full of randoms found via the squad finder. What you want is to make FW your own pro place where you can fight corp squads all day for a good match. But that's not how it would work in the end and you know it. Also CCP thinks about FW a bit different. It's not even supposed to be full pro. Sign up for Caldari FW and defeat the evil Gallente Overlords!
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:39:00 - [75] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. When I brought up solo players being put against 1-2 full squads..I was told this is a "team game get over it".. Dust is not built around solo players anymore that was almost 4 years ago..team deploy would help with syncs and wait times..but are you the type who'd rather force someone to wait 30 minutes to get a match instead of having team deploy? If CCP wants to cater to solo players now after 4 years then they need to invest their time into PvE And if raiding isn't 8 man teams I'll be disappointed Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:39:00 - [76] - Quote Again, Aikuchi, a version of team deploy already exists in FW right now. I can go an put 16 man teams together and run FW with them. The problem is there is a fairly large barrier to getting that set up which means my q-sync gets to have free reign against all those that don't know how run a sync. F.ex knowing that two 5 man squads and one 6 man squad make a more successful sync or that the timer when you deploy indicates if you got into the same match. Or things like that you can take 16 people currently and queue for two factions at once (Min/Ga or Cal/Amarr) etc. These barriers have got to go. People think they are protecting folks but in actuality what they are doing is ensuring that the q-syncs today have LESS competition in the game mode. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:46:00 - [77] - Quote I will just try and forget Kevall's OB comment But I do agree with him we need to thread carefully. My fear... if we allow 16 man platoons in FW it will be "deploy Platoon or go home". The 8 man squads will be pointless, and "relatively" new people trying their luck in FW will be stomped to oblivion. I know, I know..."Git Gud" and all that, but in its current form FW will only suffer with full team deploy. Give FW the love it really needs (ability to select district to attack, defence contracts etc), and I am all for it. Ohh, and remove NPC OBs from FW and PC. Problem solved (WP wise).
olssam 62 Prima Gallicus 219	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:56:00 - [78] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches. Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks. That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here. Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months. Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!! Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!! NO i Disagree , Fw is not popular for randoms players because of qsync.. And you ask for a deployment to 16 players ???? are you're seriously ? For a deployments the raiding mode is made for that. sorry for my bad english Chaîne Youtube - Dust 514 FR - olssam62
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:08:00 - [79] - Quote Some people are ignorant and defending the solo players. You wont fill the missing spots of a q-sync with solo players or small squads cause if a sync fails guess what happends? The players who came together in a single chat are leaving the match that they have beeing deployed into and the solo scrubs play on their own. You wont prevent q-syncs from happening and you certainly wont force decent players to accept randoms on their team in FW. I can live with it if a other q-sync beat my team in FW but what i cannot accept is that i lost the match cause 1~3 randoms decided to go AFK, snipe from the redline or even worse go 1-20 at the bottom of the scoreboard. People that freshly came out of the acedemy or those who cant even afford STD suits in FW are a liability for any team that plays FW. The only thing that they contribute are kills for the opposition to build up their OB's. CCP is allready helping solo players in pub matches by reducing the squad size down to 4. So that a squad wont have the biggest impact onto a game. In my opinion that should be the maximum of how much CCP should protect solo players. If you cross the line into FW you better prepare yourself for real competition and no carebear crap. FW is the only true field where you can measure your skill vs others cause the matchmaking prevents that in pubs. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 517	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:12:00 - [80] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: madness I categorically disagree with you on pretty much all of your objections. Pubs are the designated "safe space" with matchmaking and smaller squads. Faction Warfare and PC are supposed to be hard mode and "I get to pick whose wheaties I get to sh*t in" hardmode respectively. There is no reason to cordon off two game modes for the benefit of people who do not wish to cooperate. Carebear protections should only be allowed so far. After a certain point they are detrimental to the game. The only time carebares should be taken into consideration is pub matches. Everything else they need to htfu. I dont know why people come into a heavily team based game and wanting to go solo and get mad when they aren't getting the full experience out of it. Imagine when SOCOM came out, and some guys complained that they prefered doing that 1 man army vs the entire Russian mafia crap they see all the time in video games. There are some people that are tired of that, and for those people we have DUST. I'd use 1000 likes on these 2 posts if I could

Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 238	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:12:00 - [81] - Quote Team Deploy is being requested because a lot of us have lives and want to be on a team not with blue berries sometimes (not always). If guarding noobs or stopping stomps is the goal, they need to rethink FW. Even pubs sometimes get stomped. The MU helped, but scotty is still drunk sometimes. I don't want to have to raid to have a team fight. I know that several corps will see que syncs happening for one race, then flip and start their own to battle them. It will not be exclusive if you do something smart and put it into the squad finder. Looking for MFW would be set to 16 and people would join into the open squads. Those people will be randoms. Boom! Problem solved. Plus, we don't even know the timers for the raids yet, or how those will even occur. Sorry CPMs, but raiding is not going to fix team syncs. Wait for PC 2.0 before thinking that any new game modes will fix problems. I am guessing with outrage for districts being farmed (Yeah we all know this will happen) that timers will be made which will be reasonable and say 2 hours, so I am going to try to team qsync in FW while I assemble my team waiting for the raid. Problem is not solved that way. Plus we want team sync now! not in PC 2.0. We aren't being greedy, Kain showed that this should have been on the docket when team sizes came up. This was a missed opportunity. CCP should always assume they will get too busy to come back and recode. Learn from the past on that one. Hence my cowboy comment. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 520	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:29:00 - [82] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: I have a question for those in favor of Platoons in FW: What prevents your version of FW from turning into the version of PC that we are actively trying to move away from? Currently, new players are excluded from PC (With full team deploy) because the corporations or groups competing with each other are fighting for something important to them - It's "serious business". Additionally, the assumption is that your opponents are going to bring their best 16, so you need to bring yours. As a result, Non-competitive players, or players that don't have the the highest level of gear are kept out. Under this new FW system, what is to prevent a ~10M player who is interested in FW from being kicked from the squad because Serious FW channels want their best 16 to compete because your enemy will likely have their best 16? If there is only one queue for FW, and platoons are allowed in FW, then I foresee a second coming of the same stale game mode that is being overhauled as we speak. But I would like to hear some opinions to the contrary Why wouldn't a starter/learning corp run faction warfare syncs around the clock? I'll guarantee you'd be able to get skilled PC vets to FC and/or squad lead for training or whatever you want to call it. It wouldn't take very much SP for a bunch of newbros with solid leadership to hold their own. With the rate we earn SP now within a few weeks you can run a spec'd out ADV fit. This not being a thing is bad for new players that want to immerse in all that the game has to offer. New players in corps that run faction warfare together would (should) be working toward an apex suit. A corp doctrine would allow a new player to have a skill plan based on the apex with whatever doctrine modifications. I guess something like Brave Newbies for Dust. This gives CEOs a lot of content to work with and the members can actually see a benefit to being in a corp. With loyalty items hopefully being tradable soon, I picture new players having success early in Dust. All those missions being completed while running those FW battles will lead to a mountain of Command Points. There's your opportunity for new players to experience PC, in Apex suits and making a cool million ISK profit even with a loss. In my opinion team deploy has been the missing ingredient.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 520	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:34:00 - [83] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Two people out of however many others who wanted to get in on a factional match, but can't because a corporation took up nearly an entire scoreboard and there aren't enough extras for a second battle to happen. Seriously. Eight man squads are fine. Other people want to play your game, too. Or it could be a bunch of randoms from a channel that took a few minutes to join a platoon. This isn't rocket science people.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:39:00 - [84] - Quote Come on guys you are making me really hate myself for agreeing so strongly with CCP on this one. I want team deploy as well but its just not good for FW or for the game with what we have right now. The people saying we are just protecting newbs are seriously missing out on the big picture here. It is not about protecting newbs it is about keeping FW playable at all. What happens when no newbs are searching so your 14 man squad can not get a match thanks to no one to fill it in? The people that can not seem to comprehend the numbers and logistics here should just be glad of one thing. You only have to sync 2 squads now instead of 3 so there was an improvement. I seriously hope that I am incorrect about what 8 man squads is going to do to queue syncs but that is something we as a community can very easily work around and has massive upside in that work around but I am not going to go into that because it is all theory at this point. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Zatara Rought Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:48:00 - [85] - Quote i LOVE the name no-one-ganks-like-Gaston. Yeah just had to say this. I hope you notice me senpai T_T Founder & CEO of Fatal Absolution Skype: Zatara.Rought Email: Zatara.Forever@gmail official pawn of ArkenaKirkMerc
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:50:00 - [86] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? There is no mistaking anything here. If a 14 man squad hits search in the current system every single squad with 3 people or more is left to sit in the searching for battle queue until they are lucky enough to have enough people create 16. Oh wait, while they were waiting to get lucky a 16 man squad hit search so they have been bumped again along with the other squad of 6 that was searching as well. So no there is no mistaking anything. Allowing 16 man squads to search will BLOCK anyone that is not participating in those squads. Do you seriously want all of FW to be controlled by a few FCs in a few channels? If so I will gladly revive AmarrOne and show all of you exactly how to block anyone from playing if they do not want to follow us. Damn that sounds like fun. None of the top players queuing minmatar because they are so busy protecting their stats and nothing but brutal stomps brought down by my new ability to stop anyone from playing Amarr FW that I do not want to play. I am getting more convinced now that we are talking about outright exploiting the entire game mode for the good of the Empire. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:51:00 - [87] - Quote Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU Again, deezy, you are missing the whole point. We already have a small set of syncs. This is about liberating the sync to allow even those that don't know all the crazy things you have to do to make them work to execute. More syncs, more good fights. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:56:00 - [88] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:59:00 - [89] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. If you start a sync then others will to again the whole point. Right now you have a barrier to entry that limits the competition. Seriously, if I have 1 sync what's the probability it will go against another? Now if I have 2? 3? 50? Get the picture? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:03:00 - [90] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. If you start a sync then others will to again the whole point. Right now you have a barrier to entry that limits the competition. Seriously, if I have 1 sync what's the probability it will go against another? Now if I have 2? 3? 50? Get the picture? I already said the system needs to be reworked. The argument here is about allowing 16 man squads in right now which I can personally promise will burn FW to the ground. I have proposed many fixes that would give everyone here exactly what they wanted with some tweaking to make any of them work within what the Shanghai team has the ability to do but no one gives a flying **** about that they just want to get butt hurt when a right call is actually made that does not line up with what they think should happen. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 11	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:05:00 - [91] - Quote Zatara Rought wrote: i LOVE the name no-one-ganks-like-Gaston.\ Nooooo onnnneeee ganks like Gaston! Nova shanks like Gaston! No one forges Gallente tanks like Gaston! @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley on Skype!
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:05:00 - [92] - Quote Deezy, again you already have 16 man groups able to deploy. CCP coded in a workaround to make it happen long ago. Why do you want to keep others from going against the already established q-syncs? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 7	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:05:00 - [93] - Quote All I see are people posting the extreme negatives on both sides. While I see the negatives in platoon syncs in FW it will ultimately improve the organization of serious players looking for a fight or those starter corps looking to test their might, that alone is reason enough in my book to allow this. Besides FW was never a place for the solo player its always been a set of your bros verses the other. It's also like that in EvE, if you want to chill stay in high sec if you wanna prosper anywhere else you better have someone watching your 6. "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:10:00 - [94] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: All I see are people posting the extreme negatives on both sides. While I see the negatives in platoon syncs in FW it will ultimately improve the organization of serious players looking for a fight or those starter corps looking to test their might, that alone is reason enough in my book to allow this. Besides FW was never a place for the solo player its always been a set of your bros verses the other. It's also like that in EvE, if you want to chill stay in high sec if you wanna prosper anywhere else you better have someone watching your 6. There is no real negative to keeping it to 8 man squads. It is an improvement over the current system and there is going to be some great side effects if I am right about how the even numbers will affect syncs. The only people complaining about 8 man squads are the ones unable to realize that things are getting improved and Ratatti and team made the right call. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:12:00 - [95] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Two people out of however many others who wanted to get in on a factional match, but can't because a corporation took up nearly an entire scoreboard and there aren't enough extras for a second battle to happen. Seriously. Eight man squads are fine. Other people want to play your game, too. And if there 32 people waiting after that first match happens guess what? Another get's spun up. I find it funny people complaining about groups getting into a game mode that was specifically designed to give groups priority in getting into the game mode. CCP FoxFour wrote: What we want to change it to though is an actual queueing system where you can take an entire team, click queue, and you wait until there is another team or enough players to make up a team queued and then we start a server for you. So if two full teams click go at near the same time it should near instantly start a battle. That make sense? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:18:00 - [96] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again you already have 16 man groups able to deploy. CCP coded in a workaround to make it happen long ago. Why do you want to keep others from going against the already established q-syncs? I would LOVE to see 16 people deploy together with no extra effort. I would love even more to see us be able to have battles that are nothing more than a PC in with no barrier to entry and under the flag of the races militias. When I finally die out of this game it will be having always believed that FW should be the real end game in Dust. The problem is, like I have said over and over, allowing 16 man squads to hit search within the current system will block anyone that is not "in the know" on FW chats or given the tap by FCs. How is this good for anyone? It shuts out newbies completely and sends everyone that does not feel like sitting around waiting on a 16 man team to be formed running back to pubs. The real question is why is everyone so impassioned with seeing FW be totally put into the hands of a few people because CCP does not have the time to create a whole new system thanks to being busy on Planetary Conquest. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 544	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:23:00 - [97] - Quote I am in agreement here... team deploy for PC only is silly. Faction warfare q-syncs are a real thing, and with channels popping up daily, FW has started to be reborn, with more and more players in it every day. This game mode should, unequivocally, be allowed team deploy. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:27:00 - [98] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: I am in agreement here... team deploy for PC only is silly. Faction warfare q-syncs are a real thing, and with channels popping up daily, FW has started to be reborn, with more and more players in it every day. This game mode should, unequivocally, be allowed team deploy. They can and even easier than before. Before you had to organize squads of 6/6/4 and sync all three hoping that your squad of 4 did not get pulled into a different battle. Now you only have to sync two squads. Whether it will make actual Q syncs between those squads easier or harder is something that I do not have the numbers to figure out but I can already tell you that no matter what it makes FW better for everyone this way. It really is the best call for now until FW can get some actual love and grow to what it should be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:28:00 - [99] - Quote Deezy you are straight wrong. With platoons in Fw you eliminate the need of being forced to sync by voice in a player created channel. You create a platoon, voice there, and deploy. The more you talk it seems more likely you are trying to protect the few syncs that already exists rather than enabling the community to give them competition. Your logic is completely flawed, so by democratizing the ability to create a q-sync and lowering the barrier to entry fewer people will be creating q-syncs? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:33:00 - [100] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Nocturnal Soul wrote: All I see are people posting the extreme negatives on both sides. While I see the negatives in platoon syncs in FW it will ultimately improve the organization of serious players looking for a fight or those starter corps looking to test their might, that alone is reason enough in my book to allow this. Besides FW was never a place for the solo player its always been a set of your bros verses the other. It's also like that in EvE, if you want to chill stay in high sec if you wanna prosper anywhere else you better have someone watching your 6. There is no real negative to keeping it to 8 man squads. It is an improvement over the current system and there is going to be some great side effects if I am right about how the even numbers will affect syncs. The only people complaining about 8 man squads are the ones unable to realize that things are getting improved and Ratatti and team made the right call. Yes there is and thats having all 16 players pay attention if they get deployed into a match or not. While with team deploy all you need to do is have 1 guy que for a faction and thats it. All you achieve by not implementing it is that you constantly have to leave the match when the sync fails. Its a inconvenience for all 16 players to have to watchout if they are getting deployed or not. Just make everyones life easier and do it. Cause if this isnt in at launch we have to wait 4 months+ to get it and i dont have the patience for that. Inconvenience is a bigger factor against FW as you think. It actively pushes people away from FW and then they just go and play pubs. Cause you dont realise how quickly people get annoyed when you: 1. voice up in a chatroom 2. Choose 3 squadleaders who pick up 16 players in total 3. Have all 16 players pay attention for the whole duration of a que 4. backout of the que/match if the Q-sync fails 5. squadleaders need to check if all of their squadmembers backed out 6.repeat #3 #2 would change that you could just set your team to corp/alliance/public and then fill up the spots with 16 players #3 would mean you dont need that the full team pays attention during the que time #4 gets eliminated cause you dont have to backout simply cause its granted that your full team deploys #5 so does that #6 wont exist All what we would have to do is get a team leader, have him set the platoon to public/corp/alliance, fill up and BAM que up. 8 man squads are still inconvenient for FW. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:33:00 - [101] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you are straight wrong. With platoons in Fw you eliminate the need of being forced to sync by voice in a player created channel. You create a platoon, voice there, and deploy. The more you talk it seems more likely you are trying to protect the few syncs that already exists rather than enabling the community to give them competition. Your logic is completely flawed, so by democratizing the ability to create a q-sync and lowering the barrier to entry fewer people will be creating q-syncs? I explained very clearly above how the numbers work out in the current system to block most people from FW yet that is being ignored. I want FW to be open to everyone and as I will say for the hundredth time allowing 16 man squads to hit search kill that completely. Please tell me in any amount of detail how my numbers are incorrect. I know that you know the current system as well as I do so I really do not understand how you can not see what I am saying. You can call it democratizing the ability to create Q syncs but I prefer to think of it as avoiding an absolute oligarchy. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 544	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:37:00 - [102] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: I am in agreement here... team deploy for PC only is silly. Faction warfare q-syncs are a real thing, and with channels popping up daily, FW has started to be reborn, with more and more players in it every day. This game mode should, unequivocally, be allowed team deploy. They can and even easier than before. Before you had to organize squads of 6/6/4 and sync all three hoping that your squad of 4 did not get pulled into a different battle. Now you only have to sync two squads. Whether it will make actual Q syncs between those squads easier or harder is something that I do not have the numbers to figure out but I can already tell you that no matter what it makes FW better for everyone this way. It really is the best call for now until FW can get some actual love and grow to what it should be. Right now, I know at least 4 channels that are running FW nearly 24/7; during this rotation, they have to worry about other squads listening in and qsync ing with to cause grief, they have to worry about bulk-cancelling when a squad misses, and they have to be concerned with getting everyone on the same page. For smaller corps with no PC outlet (which Kain, myself, and others in NF are working on correcting by donating land to smaller corps who can field their own team), this is a way to practice deployment, get their com situated, call outs made, and organization up to PC levels before they get their feet wet (or to strengthen a team that already is in PC). This is one path for us to grow, and with public matches having a wonky, at best, matchmaking system, FW is the only action a lot of people see. Why not improve it for everyone? If you would like a channel to go to, please look at the forums. I know a lot of the guys who run these qsyncs and they are great people, trying to constantly provide the highest level of content for their channel members as possible. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:40:00 - [103] - Quote Again, Deezy, you aren't seeing the big picture here. Would you not agree that we already have 16 man syncs in FW? Those syncs ARE what's limited to the choosen few that know about faction warfare channels like PIE Ground Control, Chosen Matari, State Task Force, and Lucent Echelon. Right now you MUST create a player channel to have a sync or do it in corp chat. With platoons in the finder though you could get a sync together from start to finish without having to say a world aloud. That's the problem right now. The barrier to entry is so high that you limit the number of groups able to successfully sync. Those limits need to be stripped away so the status quo is shifted AWAY from the chosen few that know how to run a sync to the masses that can use the finder to create challengers to those that already have established syncs. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 544	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:43:00 - [104] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Those limits need to be stripped away so the status quo is shifted AWAY from the chosen few that know how to run a sync to the masses that can use the finder to create challengers to those that already have established syncs. The day I see a FW 16 man squad in the finder, is the day I know Dust has begun to fulfill the dreams we all had for it in the past. It will be a glorious day. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:50:00 - [105] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, Deezy, you aren't seeing the big picture here. Would you not agree that we already have 16 man syncs in FW? Those syncs ARE what's limited to the choosen few that know about faction warfare channels like PIE Ground Control, Chosen Matari, State Task Force, and Lucent Echelon. Right now you MUST create a player channel to have a sync or do it in corp chat. With platoons in the finder though you could get a sync together from start to finish without having to say a world aloud. That's the problem right now. The barrier to entry is so high that you limit the number of groups able to successfully sync. Those limits need to be stripped away so the status quo is shifted AWAY from the chosen few that know how to run a sync to the masses that can use the finder to create challengers to those that already have established syncs. Of course there are already 16 man syncs and of course it is an issue that they can not consistently get good fights. How does leaving anyone that does not want to join one of the 16 man platoons searching indefinitely fix that? Has anyone even thought about the fact that with 8 man squads the need for a Q sync is strongly reduced? You now have a far better chance of getting with another 8 man squad that you did not sync with as oppose to ending up with a bunch of randoms. If we had put this much effort into coming up with a better system we could probably even have half of it coded for CCP by now. Instead we are here arguing about applying a band aid over a bullet wound to let it rot. The simple fact is the right call was made and still no one has refuted my point on how it would block a huge portion of the player base to do what is being discussed here. As much as I love with a passion disagreeing with the decisions made in this game I simply do not see any flaw in the decision that was made to the point that I am now burning all of this time and energy defending it and trying to let people see all of the facts so that at least someone could tell me where I am wrong so that I can switch back to my normal bitching about what is being done. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:54:00 - [106] - Quote Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Dust User Horizons' Edge No Context 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:55:00 - [107] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Do you seriously want all of FW to be controlled by a few FCs in a few channels? If so I will gladly revive AmarrOne and show all of you exactly how to block anyone from playing if they do not want to follow us. Damn that sounds like fun. None of the top players queuing minmatar because they are so busy protecting their stats and nothing but brutal stomps brought down by my new ability to stop anyone from playing Amarr FW that I do not want to play. Is there really a Red Omen guy claiming he can rule the world? Funniest thing I've read all day.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:57:00 - [108] - Quote The simple fact is that disallowing full team deploy does nothing but harm those that aren't the well connected in FW. Again the simple fact remains that more syncs equal more good fights. Public matches are being designed to cater to 4 man squads and solo players. It makes sense that FW caters to those that are in fireteams and above. Again the more syncs running means that those solo players will be the ones that fill the holes on the 13 and 15 man platoons. FW was intentionally designed to give solo players longer queue times to encourage players to group up in a squad to engaged the game mode. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:03:00 - [109] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The simple fact is that disallowing full team deploy does nothing but harm those that aren't the well connected in FW. Again the simple fact remains that more syncs equal more good fights. Public matches are being designed to cater to 4 man squads and solo players. It makes sense that FW caters to those that are in fireteams and above. Again the more syncs running means that those solo players will be the ones that fill the holes on the 13 and 15 man platoons. FW was intentionally designed to give solo players longer queue times to encourage players to group up in a squad to engaged the game mode. What about a 4 or 5 man squad that would get totally shut out? Are they meant to have longer times just because they did not fill up to 16? You claim they will fill in the holes. How would they fill in the holes when they gave up searching after seeing nothing but Scotty for an hour because every time they restart the search a 14 - 16 man squad swoops in and takes their place? Search times are bad enough as it is for people that do not take part in a sync. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:04:00 - [110] - Quote No point in arguing with someone who is just posting cuz he's butthurt Kain...just ignore this nerd..we walk the path of righteousness Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ

demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 544	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:05:00 - [111] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:05:00 - [112] - Quote Dust User wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Do you seriously want all of FW to be controlled by a few FCs in a few channels? If so I will gladly revive AmarrOne and show all of you exactly how to block anyone from playing if they do not want to follow us. Damn that sounds like fun. None of the top players queuing minmatar because they are so busy protecting their stats and nothing but brutal stomps brought down by my new ability to stop anyone from playing Amarr FW that I do not want to play. Is there really a Red Omen guy claiming he can rule the world? Funniest thing I've read all day. There are many people in this thread that can attest to what I have done in the past in FW. Unlock others who you are referring to I do not make claims that I can not back up. CCP knows what I am saying is exactly what would happen by someones hand if not my own which is exactly why 16 man squads going into FW is not going to happen. Glad you could get a laugh tho. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 544	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:07:00 - [113] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: What about a 4 or 5 man squad that would get totally shut out? Are they meant to have longer times just because they did not fill up to 16? You claim they will fill in the holes. How would they fill in the holes when they gave up searching after seeing nothing but Scotty for an hour because every time they restart the search a 14 - 16 man squad swoops in and takes their place? Search times are bad enough as it is for people that do not take part in a sync. The system is robust enough to handle multiple FW matches at the same time, so it would slot them into another match. However, your problem would still be persistent if we allowed 8 man squads, too. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:07:00 - [114] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. Just because you would join a 16 man squad does not mean that other players would. What about the people that do not want to wait 20+ minutes for that squad to fill up before they hit search to see how long they will be waiting for 16 to queue on the other side? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:12:00 - [115] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: What about a 4 or 5 man squad that would get totally shut out? Are they meant to have longer times just because they did not fill up to 16? You claim they will fill in the holes. How would they fill in the holes when they gave up searching after seeing nothing but Scotty for an hour because every time they restart the search a 14 - 16 man squad swoops in and takes their place? Search times are bad enough as it is for people that do not take part in a sync. The system is robust enough to handle multiple FW matches at the same time, so it would slot them into another match. However, your problem would still be persistent if we allowed 8 man squads, too. Yes it will slot them into other matches but they are still stuck waiting on the other side to fill up after the 16 on the other side have been snatched away by the platoon. Allowing 8 man squads does present a possibility of the same issue but not a likely hood. An 8 man squad searching can still go in with a squad of any other size and use newbies to fill in. An 8 man squad does not effectively block anyone else where even a 9 man squad would. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 545	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:12:00 - [116] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. Just because you would join a 16 man squad does not mean that other players would. What about the people that do not want to wait 20+ minutes for that squad to fill up before they hit search to see how long they will be waiting for 16 to queue on the other side? Then deploy at an earlier, non-complete fill. You will still get in a match. As well, the system won't look, specifically, to put 16 v 16 deployments. You will, of course, get scenarios where the deployment will be 16 v 8+8, or 16 v 4x4, or any possible combination of the different scenarios possible. This option would just give everyone another possible way to form a team and deploy easier, removing currently existing headaches. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:15:00 - [117] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. Just because you would join a 16 man squad does not mean that other players would. What about the people that do not want to wait 20+ minutes for that squad to fill up before they hit search to see how long they will be waiting for 16 to queue on the other side? Then deploy at an earlier, non-complete fill. You will still get in a match. As well, the system won't look, specifically, to put 16 v 16 deployments. You will, of course, get scenarios where the deployment will be 16 v 8+8, or 16 v 4x4, or any possible combination of the different scenarios possible. This option would just give everyone another possible way to form a team and deploy easier, removing currently existing headaches. Again you go back to exactly what I said earlier that the system itself needs to be reworked. Luckily Ratatti has thrown away the old styles of band aid after band aid and we can look forward to a system in FW at some point that allows what everyone here wants. For now breaking it even worse with a bunch of band aids is not really an option. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:19:00 - [118] - Quote Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves. Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
demens grimwulff Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 551	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:21:00 - [119] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Again you go back to exactly what I said earlier that the system itself needs to be reworked. Luckily Ratatti has thrown away the old styles of band aid after band aid and we can look forward to a system in FW at some point that allows what everyone here wants. For now breaking it even worse with a bunch of band aids is not really an option. I think the use of band-aid in this instance is incorrect... i am just not sure how extending 16 man deploy to FW is a band-aid. It looks like we might have to agree to disagree on this one, but I have a feeling, if you saw a 16 man deployment into FW and was able to experience it, you would find it extremely enjoyable. As the archeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:26:00 - [120] - Quote Actually there are NPC OB still in Faction Warfare costing WP which is what confused me earlier. They were returned with the reduced WP costs back in Uprising 1.10 I think it was. If you want Platoon deploy in FW these will have to be removed or scaled and I'll explain why. Say all 32 players in a match are of exact equal skill, with each Merc earning 50 WP a minute. Say for the sake of example that a major laser Warbarge strike costs 1600 WP to activate. A 16 Man Platoon would earn 1600 WP in two minutes. A 8 Man Squad would earn it in four minutes. A 4 Man fire team would earn it in eight minutes. So if a match is 16 minutes long: Platoon gets 8 Strikes Squad Gets 4 Fireteam gets 2 Now if Platoon goes agains another Platoon then we have perfect parity. A Platoon goes against two squads, both teams get the same number of Strikes but at different times of the match. Not perfect but still fairish. A platoon goes up against a Squad and a Fireteam with 4 randoms not able to earn a Strike then the Platoon gets 8 strikes to the other sides total of six. Not so fair. A Platoon goes against a Squad and 8 other randoms then thats 8 Strikes against 4. Not fair at all. For the sake of fairness A Platoon goes up against four Fireteams Strikes are again equal but the timing of them is not great for the Fireteam based side. So we have a number of options. Remove the NPC OB's altogether. Scale the cost based on the member size of the squad. Ensure that Platoons face only other Platoons or two Squads and keep Fireteams in a separate queue. Now personally I'd support the removal of the NPC OB's. But I'd also want it so the team balancing do this: Platoon V Platoon Platoon V 2 Squads 2 Squads v 2 Squads 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams v 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams And finally randoms placed in matches with no more than two Fireteams on each side. This would I feel produce the best fights for those larger teams while keeping the randoms and smaller teams away from potential stomping but still having a more challenging match I don't hold at all with the notion 'This is New Eden, git gud'. We need the NPE to more balanced and ease players into these more difficult modes. Most new players quit before they even know about Chat Channels, The squad finder and the different level of play in the game. Until the NPE is more explicit in its warnings about the challenges in FW and PC we must allow for those that are new to the game. We can't carry on with the current meta of stomping. I know we can't legislate for people being A-holes and stomping for fun but we can make easier for new players to deal with these kind of players. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:27:00 - [121] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves. Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense. Are you openly saying you want to eliminate anyone from FW that feels like running solo or does not waiting on 16 people? I am not sure when you last checked but we do not have the player numbers to eliminate anyone from any mode little less shut off FW to well over half of the player base. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 992	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:29:00 - [122] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves. Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense. I don't think that anyone disagrees that people are already doing large scale FW syncs. But I - along with some others (I presume) - are arguing that the current system is beneficial for smaller organized groups, which is a good thing. If you make it logistically easier to get a whole 16 in, you've made the small group of heavy FW players happy. However, you've also made the FW pool much smaller physically and psychologically. Physically, the community of 16 active FW players is smaller than the active DUST community. Psychologically, no one is going to queue for a FW match knowing that they don't have a full 16. Furthermore, no decent FC will put newer (~10M) SP players in when they can choose to have 30 and 40M SP player in. This is the same as PC now. Like Deezy is saying, the current implementation can't support platoons in a good way (in my opinion). If there was a way for 16 players to opt in to larger FW battles, and a way for smaller squads (8 man) to play less intense FW matches, then we could implement platoons with no worries I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 992	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:30:00 - [123] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves. Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense. Are you openly saying you want to eliminate anyone from FW that feels like running solo or does not waiting on 16 people? I am not sure when you last checked but we do not have the player numbers to eliminate anyone from any mode little less shut off FW to well over half of the player base. And I'm sure, even in EVE, it is possible to run FW solo. You might not have a noticeable impact, but you can do it without being curb stomped for trying. I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:30:00 - [124] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Actually there are NPC OB still in Faction Warfare costing WP which is what confused me earlier. They were returned with the reduced WP costs back in Uprising 1.10 I think it was. If you want Platoon deploy in FW these will have to be removed or scaled and I'll explain why. Say all 32 players in a match are of exact equal skill, with each Merc earning 50 WP a minute. Say for the sake of example that a major laser Warbarge strike costs 1600 WP to activate. A 16 Man Platoon would earn 1600 WP in two minutes. A 8 Man Squad would earn it in four minutes. A 4 Man fire team would earn it in eight minutes. So if a match is 16 minutes long: Platoon gets 8 Strikes Squad Gets 4 Fireteam gets 2 Now if Platoon goes agains another Platoon then we have perfect parity. A Platoon goes against two squads, both teams get the same number of Strikes but at different times of the match. Not perfect but still fairish. A platoon goes up against a Squad and a Fireteam with 4 randoms not able to earn a Strike then the Platoon gets 8 strikes to the other sides total of six. Not so fair. A Platoon goes against a Squad and 8 other randoms then thats 8 Strikes against 4. Not fair at all. For the sake of fairness A Platoon goes up against four Fireteams Strikes are again equal but the timing of them is not great for the Fireteam based side. So we have a number of options. Remove the NPC OB's altogether. Scale the cost based on the member size of the squad. Ensure that Platoons face only other Platoons or two Squads and keep Fireteams in a separate queue. Now personally I'd support the removal of the NPC OB's. But I'd also want it so the team balancing do this: Platoon V Platoon Platoon V 2 Squads 2 Squads v 2 Squads 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams v 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams And finally randoms placed in matches with no more than two Fireteams on each side. This would I feel produce the best fights for those larger teams while keeping the randoms and smaller teams away from potential stomping but still having a more challenging match I don't hold at all with the notion 'This is New Eden, git gud'. We need the NPE to more balanced and ease players into these more difficult modes. Most new players quit before they even know about Chat Channels, The squad finder and the different level of play in the game. Until the NPE is more explicit in its warnings about the challenges in FW and PC we must allow for those that are new to the game. We can't carry on with the current meta of stomping. I know we can't legislate for people being A-holes and stomping for fun but we can make easier for new players to deal with these kind of players. It goes into Eve side stuff but the only way to ever have a chance of the link in FW mattering is by removing NPC orbitals from FW completely. This is how it was originally and the system was working well but when the new orbitals were applied they some how ended up in FW as well. I do not know if this was a bug or by design but that day completely screwed up the link with regards to FW. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:31:00 - [125] - Quote Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:33:00 - [126] - Quote I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:40:00 - [127] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. I could take it or leave it on that. Eve is able to provide flux strikes pretty easily without giving up other strikes which would add a depth in strategy. The big thing we should all be pushing for is unique orbital notifications across the board as a way to improve all game modes and make the link slightly stronger assuming it is not possible to remove the NPCs thanks to the code change when more orbitals were added. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:41:00 - [128] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. I'm sorry but without the scaling and/the team set ups I described on the previous page You can have it both ways. The NPC OB's have to go and you'll to instruct the pilot to us eEMP ammo against spam using an OB. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:49:00 - [129] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. I'm sorry but without the scaling and/the team set ups I described on the previous page You can have it both ways. The NPC OB's have to go and you'll to instruct the pilot to us eEMP ammo against spam using an OB. I would like to point out that there is an issue with the Eve EMPs. They are MASSIVE. I have yet to see a squad lead drop one in the battle field without getting kicked from FW due to the fact that they are about 5 times as large as the circle you aim with when you zoom in. That is the only reason I can support keeping the flux NPCs instead of trying to sort that out. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Middas Betancore 589	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:50:00 - [130] - Quote Hello, as an organiser and frequent participant in fw an q syncing... I would also like to see a return to EVE only strikes in FW merely to promote more seeking out of EVE pilots, also as EVE strikes currently arent really that much of an asset as its fairly eay for any set of sds to generate enough orbitals to get by. On the subject of team deploy, each of the militias already run q syncs a lot. Not having team deploy only makes it slower and more awkward to organise getting a full 16 onto one side. So it seems that giving FW players the ability to run full teams via team deploy is something it needs to make it a more fluid an functional experience for organised teams. There is the concern of it perpetuating the stompy nature of q syncs in FW, however FW is portrayed as a much more competitive public area, and giving all players team deploy in FW gives the everyman a way to fight back against q syncers. They wouldnt have to make a channel and build a community they just need to make platoons and put them in the sqd finder. Platoon/Team also helps FW players giving them a central voice channel to use. Team Deploy: making FW run quicker and promote more organisation and better fights......i say Onnamon 4-State Protectorate Logistics Support State Task Force: Caldari Fw Channel CPM2 Candidate

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 520	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:20:00 - [131] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. If you start a sync then others will to again the whole point. Right now you have a barrier to entry that limits the competition. Seriously, if I have 1 sync what's the probability it will go against another? Now if I have 2? 3? 50? Get the picture? I already said the system needs to be reworked. The argument here is about allowing 16 man squads in right now which I can personally promise will burn FW to the ground. I have proposed many fixes that would give everyone here exactly what they wanted with some tweaking to make any of them work within what the Shanghai team has the ability to do but no one gives a flying **** about that they just want to get butt hurt when a right call is actually made that does not line up with what they think should happen. Yet there's more action in FW than ever with syncs going all the time. It was incentive that was missing before.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:26:00 - [132] - Quote thor424 wrote: Yet there's more action in FW than ever with syncs going all the time. It was incentive that was missing before. APEX suits and skins did wonders for FW participation. That along with the LP store being filled in FW is in a pretty good place right now and we all even agreed on that in the group discussion that was held. There are definitely still some tweaks that are needed to make it more consistently competitive as well as not make it so much of a breaking point for some corps or groups. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
danie sous DUST BRASIL S.A Rise Of Legion. 56	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:28:00 - [133] - Quote Match me against a full 16, as long as its done in under 10m timers ive seen originally.
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 992	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:46:00 - [134] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. I would argue that, although 16 man syncs are already in the system, their effectiveness is limited by logistical inefficiency (Lack of Team Deploy). The negative space caused by this logistical inefficiency has a net beneficial effect, however, in that there is space for other less coordinated groups to also enjoy the game mode. If I had to re-design the FW system to incorporated platoons (because I'm not against them in principle), here is how I would do it: Allow individual players and corps to declare allegiance to a FW group Create a "Priority District" mechanic that operates similar to old CBs. In this system, the attackers would get a large team reward if they won (F.ex 150M bonus cash for capturing valuable assets) and the defenders would get X Lp per kill if they won. (For defending valuable assets). Attacking players have a 5 minute warbarge wait time when they queue for these battles. Anyone who has pledged allegiance to the FW group being attacked gets a notification (Like you do for PC) that an important FW district is being attacked. For the first 3 minutes of the timer, matchmaking attempts to match a platoon (explicitly) on the defending side against the attacking platoon. If, and only if, no platoon queues for the defenders in the first three minutes, then matchmaking takes any players or squads that have queued into FW to fill the spots, and the match begins. This is to simulate that the districts are so important that the militias would rather throw bodies at the districts to defend them, rather than let them fall. I think that a system like this does a few good things: First, it offers a space for serious FW corps to play without locking out less serious (but still interested) players from the game mode. Second, it offers a strong incentive to play FW in a competitive group (due to huge ISK or LP prizes) while still offering a decent incentive for those who are less competitive. Further still, it preserves the idea that FW is still a more ruthless space, and allows for more effective role playing. If, for example, the Caldari militia does not have organized platoons fighting for it, then the lesser skilled FW players "feel" the pressure by being attacked by the opposing militia's best troops. Caldari allied players can "take the heat off" of the militia by grouping up and defending these priority districts, allowing for the rest of the FW players to exist in more peaceful conditions. Thoughts? I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:06:00 - [135] - Quote As I've said before I am not interested in being penalised because my opposition is too lazy or disorganised. FW is a semi-competitive setting and if I or a group of players that can amass an deploy a full team wish to make it competitive and organise ourselves we should be able to. People say FW should be 'the middle ground' between public and PC contracts. I disagree. It should be its own game mode with its own challenges that corporations if they should want to can establish and sustain their Dust 514 careers. EVE side FW you can fly alone if you like. Just don't expect to shift system wide control particular greatly unless you spend hours grinding out plexes in low traffic systems. Don't expect to be able to stand and fight against roaming fleets because they will annihilate you. You can fly solo but you are encouraged to fly in groups. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 993	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:10:00 - [136] - Quote True Adamance wrote: As I've said before I am not interested in being penalised because my opposition is too lazy or disorganised. FW is a semi-competitive setting and if I or a group of players that can amass an deploy a full team wish to make it competitive and organise ourselves we should be able to. People say FW should be 'the middle ground' between public and PC contracts. I disagree. It should be its own game mode with its own challenges that corporations if they should want to can establish and sustain their Dust 514 careers. EVE side FW you can fly alone if you like. Just don't expect to shift system wide control particular greatly unless you spend hours grinding out plexes in low traffic systems. Don't expect to be able to stand and fight against roaming fleets because they will annihilate you. You can fly solo but you are encouraged to fly in groups. The bold sentence is the heart of the issue that I am talking about. I believe that a platoon mechanic eliminates this (bold) as a possibility. We don't have an open world like EVE does, so the ability to have control of the entire roster of players is a very powerful one. I still think that we need to have a system that allows for those solo players to exist in the game mode. The current system, while flawed and logistically clunky for competitive teams, does allow that space I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:16:00 - [137] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: And I'm sure, even in EVE, it is possible to run FW solo. You might not have a noticeable impact, but you can do it without being curb stomped for trying. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Funniest statement I've seen all goddamn morning. Good one. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:29:00 - [138] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. I would argue that, although 16 man syncs are already in the system, their effectiveness is limited by logistical inefficiency (Lack of Team Deploy). The negative space caused by this logistical inefficiency has a net beneficial effect, however, in that there is space for other less coordinated groups to also enjoy the game mode. If I had to re-design the FW system to incorporated platoons (because I'm not against them in principle), here is how I would do it: Allow individual players and corps to declare allegiance to a FW group Create a "Priority District" mechanic that operates similar to old CBs, where two groups battle against each other for a prize. Priority Districts would be selectable from a drop down menu (The same menu that was used to test the portals a few months ago) In this system, the attackers would get a large team reward if they won (F.ex 150M bonus cash for capturing valuable assets) and the defenders would get X Lp per kill if they won. (For defending valuable assets). Attacking players have a 5 minute warbarge wait time when they queue for these battles. Anyone who has pledged allegiance to the FW group being attacked gets a notification (Like you do for PC) that an important FW district is being attacked. For the first 3 minutes of the timer, matchmaking attempts to match a platoon (explicitly) on the defending side against the attacking platoon. If, and only if, no platoon queues for the defenders in the first three minutes, then matchmaking takes any players or squads that have queued into FW to fill the spots, and the match begins. This is to simulate that the districts are so important that the militias would rather throw bodies at the districts to defend them, rather than let them fall. I think that a system like this does a few good things: First, it offers a space for serious FW corps to play without locking out less serious (but still interested) players from the game mode. Second, it offers a strong incentive to play FW in a competitive group (due to huge ISK or LP prizes) while still offering a decent incentive for those who are less competitive. Further still, it preserves the idea that FW is still a more ruthless space, and allows for more effective role playing. If, for example, the Caldari militia does not have organized platoons fighting for it, then the lesser skilled FW players "feel" the pressure by being attacked by the opposing militia's best troops. Caldari allied players can "take the heat off" of the militia by grouping up and defending these priority districts, allowing for the rest of the FW players to exist in more peaceful conditions. Thoughts? ^ This is the love I was talking about. Let me pledge allegiance for higher rewards and choose where (and somewhat who) I am playing against, and I jump on the full 16 team deploy in a heartbeat. Right now... Isn't the right time (sadly).
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:33:00 - [139] - Quote Whether it's 8 people or 16, I will enjoy the greater power to throw matches with awox griefing and suicide squads. LP rewards in FW better support losing if I want to end a match faster. You can crank out fall deaths pretty quickly if you know what you're doing. https://youtu.be/RlmZB1r5FQM Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:38:00 - [140] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: True Adamance wrote: As I've said before I am not interested in being penalised because my opposition is too lazy or disorganised. FW is a semi-competitive setting and if I or a group of players that can amass an deploy a full team wish to make it competitive and organise ourselves we should be able to. People say FW should be 'the middle ground' between public and PC contracts. I disagree. It should be its own game mode with its own challenges that corporations if they should want to can establish and sustain their Dust 514 careers. EVE side FW you can fly alone if you like. Just don't expect to shift system wide control particular greatly unless you spend hours grinding out plexes in low traffic systems. Don't expect to be able to stand and fight against roaming fleets because they will annihilate you. You can fly solo but you are encouraged to fly in groups. The bold sentence is the heart of the issue that I am talking about. I believe that a platoon mechanic eliminates this (bold) as a possibility. We don't have an open world like EVE does, so the ability to have control of the entire roster of players is a very powerful one. I still think that we need to have a system that allows for those solo players to exist in the game mode. The current system, while flawed and logistically clunky for competitive teams, does allow that space Indeed but I don't see why FW should pander to the solo player. We have public contracts for that. FW is its own persistent conflict that should have a wider focus beyond the individual. If solo players wish to farm LP but not deal with the semi-competitive nature of FW conflicts perhaps Faction PvE missions would serve for their grind. The issue unlike EVE as you point out is that players you can communicate with are vastly more valuable on the field than those who cannot and in some instances the presence of solo players compromises the effectiveness of a competitive team. Since we do have limited space in order to make more competitive teams you have to try to command as many of the 16 character slots as possible. I'd rather and FW system where player have the agency to chose which system and planets we need to be attacking and defending at any given time. That was our syncs could make our own warzones in important area while solo players who don't care or simply want to farm can attack low traffic and unimportant areas. Again when I go into FW I want to win. I want to be fighting the best the enemy faction can throw at us IF they can mount a team that can beat our own and NOT because our team was penalised to cater to the whims of people who likely don't care enough. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:41:00 - [141] - Quote We should fix the unintended side effect of having OBs in Factional for warpoints. That was never the plan, but a side effect of the new OBs being implemented. OBs in Factional should be Eve pilot ONLY. We need to stop shutting off avenues to connect the two games, and instead find MORE ways to connect them. Know what cannot be known.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 21:53:00 - [142] - Quote Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:00:00 - [143] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:10:00 - [144] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. I think the solution to FW's issues lies in giving those players who want it the agency to affect systems and regions on a large scale in a manner that actually reflects their efforts for a fair amount of time allowing them to directly aid EVE side pilots in their conquest while at the same time providing the solo player low traffic systems in which they can fight or PvE content that will allow them LP. It's not about kicking people out of FW. It's about not penalising those players who want to take it that step further. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
NextDark Knight Hellstorm LLC 808	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:18:00 - [145] - Quote I think CCP can limit to only one 8 man squad ending up in any fleet war battle. It might balance better with fire teams and solo players. Over 60+ Million SP and full proto in all Caldari Suits. Dust just won't die on PS3/Xbox. Dustin since 6/29/2012
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:28:00 - [146] - Quote NextDark Knight wrote: I think CCP can limit to only one 8 man squad ending up in any fleet war battle. It might balance better with fire teams and solo players. If by 'Fleet War Battle' you reference EVE then the answer is no, if you mean Faction Warfare Battle then I am sure they could but honestly why would they? It's nothing but another arbitrary limitation imposed on players for no reason other than to placate the whining of GD. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 239	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:49:00 - [147] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. The statement is more about how the 8 man queue syncs will still back out when the sync fails. That creates havoc and lopsided games. You seem to think you are right, so answer me my question and you will see the flaw in your logic: What are you doing about my problem with FW battles going belly up when at launch half the team bails due to failed sync? Your statement holds less water for exclusions if squad finder is leveraged. People will not be excluded if squad finder is leveraged, because there are always open teams. I know lots of the channels will get pretty full but still have open spots because they don't get to 16 and stop. They will open up to the squad finder and possibly introduce new players to massive coordinated FW attacks. Where is the wrong? You are assuming Dust is super organized and exclusive, but you are incorrect. What happens instead is people get butthurt from the FOTM queue syncs which this would lessen. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:52:00 - [148] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. No you are the delusional one. If all FW channels and corps would work together and say no to kickstart FW then you would not even see a single FW match in a week. Yet you want to screw them over. Here i give you a number on team deploy and that the FW chats are in the majority: -no FW kickstart= 0 matches played for any faction -no matches played means that no solo players can play Or do you believe that the "solo players" care enough to stay long enough in a FW que until it magically works? That is more then questionable. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:56:00 - [149] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. The statement is more about how the 8 man queue syncs will still back out when the sync fails. That creates havoc and lopsided games. You seem to think you are right, so answer me my question and you will see the flaw in your logic: What are you doing about my problem with FW battles going belly up when at launch half the team bails due to failed sync? Your statement holds less water for exclusions if squad finder is leveraged. People will not be excluded if squad finder is leveraged, because there are always open teams. I know lots of the channels will get pretty full but still have open spots because they don't get to 16 and stop. They will open up to the squad finder and possibly introduce new players to massive coordinated FW attacks. Where is the wrong? You are assuming Dust is super organized and exclusive, but you are incorrect. What happens instead is people get butthurt from the FOTM queue syncs which this would lessen. Fixing people leaving battle is not possible. Take a quick look at the disaster area that is public contracts. The funny thing is I have proposed a system meant to encourage completion of battles no matter what but of course that does not get a second glance from anyone because it requires actual thoughts instead of just echoing what everyone else is posting. "if squad finder is leveraged" How many times have I said now that the problem is anyone that does not want to sit around and wait for a 16 man squad to fill up will be eliminated? Your entire argument is IF IF IF. WHAT IF your argument was based on something besides your own personal opinion? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:03:00 - [150] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. No you are the delusional one. If all FW channels and corps would work together and say no to kickstart FW then you would not even see a single FW match in a week. Yet you want to screw them over. Here i give you a number on team deploy and that the FW chats are in the majority: -no FW kickstart= 0 matches played for any faction -no matches played means that no solo players can play Or do you believe that the "solo players" care enough to stay long enough in a FW que until it magically works? That is more then questionable. I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Oh and guess what with 8 man squads it will only take 4 people and a little bit of ISK to jump start FW. I know because that is how we did it back when we were the only Q sync channel and did not have huge numbers. P.S. Delusional comes from a Latin word meaning "deceiving." So delusional thinking is kind of like deceiving yourself by believing outrageous things. Delusional thoughts are often a sign of mental illness, but the word can also be used more loosely to describe behavior that is just not realistic. Believing all the players in the game are going to join together and refuse to play anything besides PC and 4 man squads in pub contracts is EXACTLY an "outrageous thing". You can close down every FW chat out there and chances are any mid level corp out there would have it jump started in no time just because they want to run in an 8 man squad like never before. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:16:00 - [151] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:18:00 - [152] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:26:00 - [153] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Not really sure it does. Organised groups will keep queuing as they do and keep winning matches out over those who do not care enough or are too lazy to deploy with allies. Organisation and Numbers > Individual Skill Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:30:00 - [154] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Not really sure it does. Organised groups will keep queuing as they do and keep winning matches out over those who do not care enough or are too lazy to deploy with allies. Organisation and Numbers > Individual Skill What happens when those organized squads can not get a match for most of the day because everyone but the players who want to run 16 man squads have quit. When people know they can not go in without a 16 man squad and do not have the time or the energy to sit around waiting on 15 other people the whole game mode goes down the drain in a hurry. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 6	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:50:00 - [155] - Quote Team Deploy in FW could also make it easier to avoid awoxing/suicide squads. If you unabashedly want to end a match fast I also have a great deal of experience with organizing and encouraging awox/suicide squads. A dead weight 8 player squad jumping in front of your bullets or falling to their deaths repeatedly is arguably more damaging for player moral than simply having a 16 player organized platoon dedicated to 'serious' play. CCP would obviously take measures if this got out of control, but in the mean time there's nothing stopping you from claiming that you are a simple awoxer engaging in the sandbox of New Eden. I will be happy to run 8 man suicide squads in FW when Warlords 1.2 deploys. Goal, die a lot or get people to accidentally kill you in order to kick them from FW. Here's Lee Corwood demonstrating one technique to die quickly. https://youtu.be/RlmZB1r5FQM Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 530	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:51:00 - [156] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Not really sure it does. Organised groups will keep queuing as they do and keep winning matches out over those who do not care enough or are too lazy to deploy with allies. Organisation and Numbers > Individual Skill What happens when those organized squads can not get a match for most of the day because everyone but the players who want to run 16 man squads have quit. When people know they can not go in without a 16 man squad and do not have the time or the energy to sit around waiting on 15 other people the whole game mode goes down the drain in a hurry. I guess they'll play FW as often as they did before the increased activity in FW. I went months without playing FW because it was never going while I was on. I'm just not seeing this addressed by those opposed to this.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:54:00 - [157] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Not really sure it does. Organised groups will keep queuing as they do and keep winning matches out over those who do not care enough or are too lazy to deploy with allies. Organisation and Numbers > Individual Skill What happens when those organized squads can not get a match for most of the day because everyone but the players who want to run 16 man squads have quit. When people know they can not go in without a 16 man squad and do not have the time or the energy to sit around waiting on 15 other people the whole game mode goes down the drain in a hurry. Which is why I've stated in the past that we need various outlets for smaller games without compromising the competitive and organised spirit of FW. Perhaps in FW we could work out battles on complex sizes. 4v4's in the Smalls 8v8's for our Mediums 16vs 16 for the most valuable Large Complexes Players can still be competitive though on different levels. New players can be placed into smaller more manageable conflicts. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Darken-Sol Intruder Excluder 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:59:00 - [158] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Personally, I think splitting queues sends the message that the meta for FW doesn't matter. If that's what it takes to broker a compromise on this issue, then so be it, but it really doesn't make sense if we are to believe that the results of FW battles in Dust matter to EVE. Why couldnt they just put team deploy against team deploy. Similar to how squads fight squads Crush them
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 00:05:00 - [159] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Personally, I think splitting queues sends the message that the meta for FW doesn't matter. If that's what it takes to broker a compromise on this issue, then so be it, but it really doesn't make sense if we are to believe that the results of FW battles in Dust matter to EVE. Why couldn't they just put team deploy against team deploy. Similar to how squads fight squads They could sure but would a sixteen man queue even work if there was no opposing 16 man queue? Again it's a matter of punishing those who wish to play in a large group. I mean I am not adverse to good fights......the lack of them is what keeps me on and offing session in Dust. However FW needs to be treated as something other than a LP grind/faucet or Public Matches 2.0. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 01:15:00 - [160] - Quote True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players. FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:21:00 - [161] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. I play entirely support roles. Rep logi, speed hacker, and forge gun AV, and I swap between them throughout the match as needed. (I'm considering AV support in this case because I play it defensively, keeping enemy vehicles back rather than seeking them out for destruction, and use the forge gun to counter snipe where I can.) I don't do much killing. But matches, Faction War and pub, have been won damn near entirely because of me. I'm not saying all of them or even many, but a decent few. And I am a solo player. When the enemy has all the objectives I drop an uplink nearby, run in, grab the hack, drop an RE, run out for the next objective and bomb the reds who try to counter-hack, giving my team members a few more seconds to get into position and hunker down, while I take the next objective that's less defended now that they need men to take the lost objective back. And I continue this cycle. I keep out of the way, and keep the objectives out of the enemy's hands. This is how I help as a solo player. When my team is under heavy fire and I'm a logi, I pick them up when they drop and I keep as many running and gunning as possible, not just the heavies. The machine gun may be an infantry dropper, but two or three people alone can't hold a position very well, and certainly can't keep eyes open for gankers on all sides. If you're missing armor you get reps. That's it. I'm not the best logi, but I know I'm a good one. In nearly all of these situations I know that objective would be lost without me if it gets pushed with any decent amount of force. I rarely see a logi unless it's a pub domination match and they're farming WP off a heavy. I guess they see me with the rep tool and think I have the whole team covered. I am dedicated as a logi and do not skimp on the gear I put on it like I do my other suits. I don't give one single ** how much ISK I lose or how much SP I gain. I do my best to keep my team alive. This is how I help as a solo player. If an enemy has a tank on the field or a dropship in the skies and they're closing in, removing it from the map is important. The obvious conclusions are that the tank is going to suppress or attempt to take out the team, and the dropship is going to plant uplinks in otherwise impossible to reach places. And if there aren't more pressing matters to attend to, like a swarm of incoming reds, I go AV and try to take it out or keep it back as soon as possible. When I know there's a sniper watching the field I go AV so I can take the first hit if they catch me scoping them out to determine their location and take them out when I come back after the second, if, hopefully, there even is a second. A decent sniper isn't going to let you live long enough to have a firefight with them and a heavy won't move nearly fast enough to escape a second shot, assuming they survive the first. When I respawn I find a good position and take them out. This is how I help as a solo player. You could argue that the matches would go more smoothly if I were in a squad. You could argue I would do better myself in a squad if I had proper support and could communicate what I was doing. Hell, you could even be pessimistic and argue that by going solo and hacking objectives I'm ruining carefully laid plans of the people running squads in that match. My point here is that you shouldn't discredit a solo player just because they're being independent in a team game. A solo player who does well against a team of well organized adversaries is someone I'd want on my side, ability to communicate or no. Now if you were specifically talking about solo players fresh from academy in militia gear wandering into FW and having no clue what they're getting into, yes. That's fine. They shouldn't be there and they'll learn that soon enough. But they shouldn't be denied the chance to learn, just like I shouldn't be denied the chance to play. Bright Cloud wrote:** And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. Yes, that's nice. I appreciate that. I enjoy Faction War the times I'm able to get in. Never had a bad match (except against Cap. Acq.). But just because a group of people are kickstarting Faction War doesn't mean they should get to decide how the game works. And if it's that same group of people 'keeping FW alive' it doesn't mean the game mode should cater to them. It means something is wrong and it needs to be fixed so it's a more easily accessible game mode. Faction War shouldn't be on life support thanks to a small group of dedicated players. And 16 man squads would ruin the game mode for a lot of people who don't have many connections or friends in Dust. It's a team game, yes, but you're already helping your team by supressing oncoming enemies, dropping uplinks/hives, scanning, hacking objectives, etc. And you can do that just fine solo. I am a team player. I love Faction War. I love the challenge. It's a hell of a lot more fun than pubs. I just don't want to be forced to squad up to play. And I really do think that allowing 16 man squads will cause certain corporations and groups to completely own Faction Warfare.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:22:00 - [162] - Quote If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:24:00 - [163] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: TL;DR: I am a dedicated team player who genuinely wants to help the team, but prefers to run solo and doesn't want to be forced into squadding up just to play a game mode. I also think that allowing 16 man squads would allow certain corporations or groups to basically own FW.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:28:00 - [164] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:32:00 - [165] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs. Again the paranoia surrounding team deploy allowing a small group to take over FW is downright silly. With the tools to sync easily and properly no matter your language and no matter if you have a mic or anything else means that the current sync groups will get outnumbered by those that are able to easily organize using the system. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:36:00 - [166] - Quote To address Gaston's post ...... there is no doubt you are doing something. However as much as you demand others understand your perspective of your efforts in FW you too must attempt to understand the perspective others who play the mode, especially those like myself who take the mode very seriously, and make it as competitive as possible. In any instance where I could choose you as a solo player or any other player willing to communicate and function with the squad the choice is immediately clear. This is not because I want to force you out of the game mode but because I want to ensure those in my session do have a firm grasp of the tactics we will be using and can relay information back to the squad leader to then act upon. This voiced player is a significantly more 'reliable' asset to the squad. And that reliability is what is important. Though as Kain said.....and I have no idea why I am agreeing with him today..... if you enter into FW and are one of those individuals who are complaining about organised groups you do have no one to blame but yourself. These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:52:00 - [167] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs. Again the paranoia surrounding team deploy allowing a small group to take over FW is downright silly. With the tools to sync easily and properly no matter your language and no matter if you have a mic or anything else means that the current sync groups will get outnumbered by those that are able to easily organize using the system. I'm not saying that small groups are going to willfully, or even knowingly, take control of FW. If a full 16 man squad can be deployed quickly and easily all at once, it'd be a simple thing for that team to just be better than the ragtag randoms they may face and make said randoms drop out. The problem isn't that we won't be able to build up a sixteen man team at all. It's that we'd be doing it with strangers from squad finder who all want to do their own thing or want to take lead and have no respect for one another while the people who have already been syncing up together for months know the drill, know their places, know how to do their jobs, and know how to take orders. It isn't that we can't match them in numbers. It's that, if they wanted to, they really, seriously could basically own FW without even trying or meaning to. And the only people who could match them are another committed, organized team. Which you aren't going to get from squad finder randoms. Giving everyone the tools to make a 16 man squad doesn't even the playing field, it makes things cumbersome for anyone who isn't already experienced in leading large groups of people and easier for the ones who are. And the ones who are are the ones who already sync, and the ones who aren't are damn near everyone else. And the players without experience aren't going to suddenly gain it by running factionals with randoms, because one, it'd be frustrating as hell, two, leading isn't everyone's gig, and three, if your randoms don't want to take orders they're not going to take orders and things are going to fall apart, regardless. In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their ****, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:57:00 - [168] - Quote True Adamance wrote: To address Gaston's post ...... there is no doubt you are doing something. However as much as you demand others understand your perspective of your efforts in FW you too must attempt to understand the perspective others who play the mode, especially those like myself who take the mode very seriously, and make it as competitive as possible. In any instance where I could choose you as a solo player or any other player willing to communicate and function with the squad the choice is immediately clear. This is not because I want to force you out of the game mode but because I want to ensure those in my session do have a firm grasp of the tactics we will be using and can relay information back to the squad leader to then act upon. This voiced player is a significantly more 'reliable' asset to the squad. And that reliability is what is important. Though as Kain said.....and I have no idea why I am agreeing with him today..... if you enter into FW and are one of those individuals who are complaining about organised groups you do have no one to blame but yourself. These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... I have absolutely no qualms with organized groups. The other team has a good squad running together and my team is all Final Fantasy one man army wanna-bes, myself included? That's fine. I'll take my beating. I ran solo by choice. I have a problem with organized groups of 16 people being able to deploy all at once. It's one thing to fight a squad of just six, or even the upcoming eight people. Fighting a full group of 16 is silly. Factional Warfare is competitive. That's fine. I get that. It's why I play. But Factional Warfare isn't PC. I'm not running factionals to fight against a full team of Capital Acquisition.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:01:00 - [169] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:02:00 - [170] - Quote True Adamance wrote: These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... This made me lol. I just imagined a bunch of Duster war barges jumping through Amamake without a care in the world. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:08:00 - [171] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: To address Gaston's post ...... there is no doubt you are doing something. However as much as you demand others understand your perspective of your efforts in FW you too must attempt to understand the perspective others who play the mode, especially those like myself who take the mode very seriously, and make it as competitive as possible. In any instance where I could choose you as a solo player or any other player willing to communicate and function with the squad the choice is immediately clear. This is not because I want to force you out of the game mode but because I want to ensure those in my session do have a firm grasp of the tactics we will be using and can relay information back to the squad leader to then act upon. This voiced player is a significantly more 'reliable' asset to the squad. And that reliability is what is important. Though as Kain said.....and I have no idea why I am agreeing with him today..... if you enter into FW and are one of those individuals who are complaining about organised groups you do have no one to blame but yourself. These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... I have absolutely no qualms with organized groups. The other team has a good squad running together and my team is all Final Fantasy one man army wanna-bes, myself included? That's fine. I'll take my beating. I ran solo by choice. I have a problem with organized groups of 16 people being able to deploy all at once. It's one thing to fight a squad of just six, or even the upcoming eight people. Fighting a full group of 16 is silly. Factional Warfare is competitive. That's fine. I get that. It's why I play. But Factional Warfare isn't PC. I'm not running factionals to fight against a full team of Capital Acquisition. Whereas I am. In many respects this is where we fundamentally disagree with the vision of FW. I'd like to see organised groups create their own warzones in systems of their choosing or at the behest of EVE corps in which conflicts are bitter, competitive, and demand organisation and team work from those involved. This ideal however does preclude solo players from earning LP. It does however relegate them to less contested systems where large and more competitive entities are not deployed or into PvE missions for the factions themselves. I'm sorry but at present time I am unwilling to compromise on my stance that this game should not penalise players who wish to treat the mode with some level of competitive spirit or as end game content forcing them down to cater to smaller groups and solo players. It should be its own game mode that can encompass all kinds of players but with a distinct focus on militia communities and the efforts of the group. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:14:00 - [172] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: True Adamance wrote: These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... This made me lol. I just imagined a bunch of Duster war barges jumping through Amamake without a care in the world. Last time I was in Ammamake it was quiet as all hell. Eerie really. No Minmatar. No Pirates. Just Purple. But I do see your point...... I was more imagining a bunch of Dusters jumping in in assorted Destroyers and encountering a frigate fleet typing in local their confusion as to why they are the ones being slapped around. Hell I even remember rebuking to a ....admittedly rather recognisable Duster on these forums.... because the guy wouldn't equip more than his Orbital Laser S ammo and T1 modules because he was convinced that he'd be unable to switch ammo types and fight back if an enemy jumped onto him...... I walked away head in my hands. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Darken-Sol Intruder Excluder 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:15:00 - [173] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Personally, I think splitting queues sends the message that the meta for FW doesn't matter. If that's what it takes to broker a compromise on this issue, then so be it, but it really doesn't make sense if we are to believe that the results of FW battles in Dust matter to EVE. Why couldn't they just put team deploy against team deploy. Similar to how squads fight squads They could sure but would a sixteen man queue even work if there was no opposing 16 man queue? Again it's a matter of punishing those who wish to play in a large group. I mean I am not adverse to good fights......the lack of them is what keeps me on and offing session in Dust. However FW needs to be treated as something other than a LP grind/faucet or Public Matches 2.0. Itd be corp battles. A big stone kills several birds Crush them
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:17:00 - [174] - Quote True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew?
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:18:00 - [175] - Quote Darken-Sol wrote: True Adamance wrote: Darken-Sol wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Personally, I think splitting queues sends the message that the meta for FW doesn't matter. If that's what it takes to broker a compromise on this issue, then so be it, but it really doesn't make sense if we are to believe that the results of FW battles in Dust matter to EVE. Why couldn't they just put team deploy against team deploy. Similar to how squads fight squads They could sure but would a sixteen man queue even work if there was no opposing 16 man queue? Again it's a matter of punishing those who wish to play in a large group. I mean I am not adverse to good fights......the lack of them is what keeps me on and offing session in Dust. However FW needs to be treated as something other than a LP grind/faucet or Public Matches 2.0. Itd be corp battles. A big stone kills several birds Not in FW! There is simply no need to bastardise one game mode to make room for another. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:19:00 - [176] - Quote The irony here is that Corp Battles 1.0 was FW. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:24:00 - [177] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew? I do understand that perspective. Surely then you might see the inverse which is mine. Praetoria Imperialis Excubatoris, my alliance has made FW their home for almost a decade now, and FW in Dust has the potential to actually mean something to EVE pilots and my alliance. I want to stop being that charity case of a division that does nothing to help them. I want to actually contribute in a meaningful way to their efforts up there. FW is also my favourite mode. I don't want to see it bastardised into Public Matches 2.0 for the sake of players who don't care enough to get themselves sorted. Nor do I really want to see it become Corp Battles 2.0 either. But FW needs a real identity, it needs narrative, and it needs room for agency and those who want to take it seriously to take it seriously. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:27:00 - [178] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The irony here is that Corp Battles 1.0 was FW. In some respects yes. In others no. PIE Inc, which was what we were back then, would group up when it could and join whatever battles it could. We never had a full 16 grouping then and yet we'd almost always come across a competitive group of players be they a full sync or maybe even a squad. Sometimes we'd find absolutely nothing in the way of competition. It depended on which contracts we chose to pick up. At least back then corporations respected one another, actually cared for what they fought about, were loyal to their factions, and did all that for nothing more than a good series of fights, some contextual value, and a tiny little portion of ISK. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 12	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:40:00 - [179] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? I have to agree with this. Randoms who run solo will be the ones filling in the gaps if there are any. Just don't expect a fireteam to be able to squeeze in. At least not without having someone getting dropped from the match. As a veteran faction warfare player here in Dust, my stance is that the NPC warbarge needs to be addressed. I originally wanting to suggest removing it entirely, but after reading that Deezy, Kain, and other said about the flux strikes and how they compare to the size of an EMP-type OB from an Eve player, I think the best course of action here is to remove the NPC Warbarge's ability to deliver anything else except flux strikes. But at the same time, we should NOT be stopping there. I hosted a lecture about this some time ago and the general consensus right now is that the notifications of Eve-side orbitals being available is just not there or it's not clear enough to the Dust-side players. PS: I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not it was a good idea to limit FW to no bigger than 8-man squads. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:42:00 - [180] - Quote True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew? I do understand that perspective. Surely then you might see the inverse which is mine. Praetoria Imperialis Excubatoris, my alliance has made FW their home for almost a decade now, and FW in Dust has the potential to actually mean something to EVE pilots and my alliance. I want to stop being that charity case of a division that does nothing to help them. I want to actually contribute in a meaningful way to their efforts up there. FW is also my favourite mode. I don't want to see it bastardised into Public Matches 2.0 for the sake of players who don't care enough to get themselves sorted. Nor do I really want to see it become Corp Battles 2.0 either. But FW needs a real identity, it needs narrative, and it needs room for agency and those who want to take it seriously to take it seriously. I do see it, but, much like you don't agree with me, I can't quite agree with you. I'm a broken record by now, but I really don't think 16 man squads would be good for the game mode. I guess if Factionals ever actually get their platoons we'll see what comes of it. Thank you for actually talking with me, by the way, rather than simply saying 'no, you're wrong and stupid'. Even though I may very well be one or both of those things.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:49:00 - [181] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew? I do understand that perspective. Surely then you might see the inverse which is mine. Praetoria Imperialis Excubatoris, my alliance has made FW their home for almost a decade now, and FW in Dust has the potential to actually mean something to EVE pilots and my alliance. I want to stop being that charity case of a division that does nothing to help them. I want to actually contribute in a meaningful way to their efforts up there. FW is also my favourite mode. I don't want to see it bastardised into Public Matches 2.0 for the sake of players who don't care enough to get themselves sorted. Nor do I really want to see it become Corp Battles 2.0 either. But FW needs a real identity, it needs narrative, and it needs room for agency and those who want to take it seriously to take it seriously. I do see it, but, much like you don't agree with me, I can't quite agree with you. I'm a broken record by now, but I really don't think 16 man squads would be good for the game mode. I guess if Factionals ever actually get their platoons we'll see what comes of it. Thank you for actually talking with me, by the way, rather than simply saying 'no, you're wrong and stupid'. Even though I may very well be one or both of those things. Eh I try not to do that sort of thing if I can help it. Better to actually hear why someone believes something and where their sentiments come from than instantly dismiss it as nonsense. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:50:00 - [182] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? I have to agree with this. Randoms who run solo will be the ones filling in the gaps if there are any. Just don't expect a fireteam to be able to squeeze in. At least not without having someone getting dropped from the match. As a veteran faction warfare player here in Dust, my stance is that the NPC warbarge needs to be addressed. I originally wanting to suggest removing it entirely, but after reading that Deezy, Kain, and other said about the flux strikes and how they compare to the size of an EMP-type OB from an Eve player, I think the best course of action here is to remove the NPC Warbarge's ability to deliver anything else except flux strikes. But at the same time, we should NOT be stopping there. I hosted a lecture about this some time ago and the general consensus right now is that the notifications of Eve-side orbitals being available is just not there or it's not clear enough to the Dust-side players. PS: I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not it was a good idea to limit FW to no bigger than 8-man squads. Greater than 8 man squads also generates squads who are unable to join battle until they get lucky and hit a squad that matches up with them to make 16. What do you think wait times will be for 2 12 man squads that hit search? They will now be waiting on a total of 8 people with none of them being in a squad larger than 4. Anyone want to guess how bad the endless list of combinations like that will affect wait time? An 8 man squad is now waiting on any combination of 8 people while a 12 man squad is waiting on any combination of 4 people while a 6 man squad is waiting on any combination of 10 people. None of them are in battle even tho 26 people are now searching and only 16 are required to create a match. Instead they are forced to wait on specific combinations of people that can total 22 more people based on their respective requirements. How is it that no one is seeing how horribly broken this would be? It is absolute basic mathematics. If squad size reaches more than 50% of the match generation goes all to hell. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 04:41:00 - [183] - Quote Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 04:54:00 - [184] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Why is it that no one in your corp can understand simple mathematics? Screwed up mismatches equal amazingly high search times for anyone that is not in a 16 man squad. I just gave a very straight forward and more than realistic scenario above yet just like everything else strafing level 5 kicked in and you side step the argument and actually did not even manage to make a point. Kain, why are you so hell bent on ***** up queue times for everyone in small to mid size corps who can not instantly create a full 16 man squad? I honestly do not see the point behind doing that besides hurting the game even more but when a group of people continuously avoid logic and keep arguing for something that is obviously broken there has to be an agenda. Queue times for anyone outside of certain time zones is already horrendous and even people in the prime time zones have bad search times. You want to seriously increase this all so that you dont have to count down for 2 squad leaders to hit search? Is it so that you do not have to take the risk of a different 8 man squad getting into the battle with you and you make actually have to put in some effort if they are not full on proto stompers? For someone arguing about "more organization" there is an awful lot of work going on to avoid having to get 2 people to press X at the same time. Admit you dont give a flying ** about the rest of the community and could care less about their search times being increased by any number and I will gladly leave it alone. There is zero way to argue that squads entering the queue which are larger than 50% of match size do not present a massive possibility of increased search times for everyone else so no matter what you are sending a clear message about your feelings to do with anyone outside of your group. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:19:00 - [185] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players. FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Just because its an 'end game' doesn't mean it should be relocated to those that can exploit it the best. It needs a reasonable point of entry that it currently does not have (and no, these changes aren't going to provide one - go try playing in a public squad sometime, people do not work together). I'd also like to point out that True Adamances words should be taken with a hefty grain of salt as he rarely logs in and almost never plays. I like you True, but you and aero both have a lot of negative traits, especially when it comes to complaining on the forums to get changes you'd 'like' for a game you can't even be said to really play. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:33:00 - [186] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: Kain Spero wrote: True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players. FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Just because its an 'end game' doesn't mean it should be relocated to those that can exploit it the best. It needs a reasonable point of entry that it currently does not have (and no, these changes aren't going to provide one - go try playing in a public squad sometime, people do not work together). I'd also like to point out that True Adamances words should be taken with a hefty grain of salt as he rarely logs in and almost never plays. I like you True, but you and aero both have a lot of negative traits, especially when it comes to complaining on the forums to get changes you'd 'like' for a game you can't even be said to really play. I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort. I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:37:00 - [187] - Quote As an update: kirjuun saaja/STF ar no longer getting cal/gal matches except for the occasional big corp and some tiny bits of randoms... We have crushed the opposition out of the warzone. If you think this is some that wouldn't be exaggerated by 'platoons' you'd be wrong. Our morale is excellent, public squads or even groups that don't come from things like pc can't often match it, there are few matches where we just roll over. Our organization is great, everyone is on the same page usually and public squads will never match that. Usually we only encounter trouble when we run into pc level corps. We probably have a >80% win rate... And we don't really have a right to. People do not play FW because they do not have a reasonable expectation of not getting redlined - forget a reasonable expectation of a win. These issues will be exacerbated by 16man squads... They'll make 'getting in' easier, but they'll do nothing to improve your chances at a fair match. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:43:00 - [188] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort. I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users. Another side step of the basic numbers presented you showing the exact issue that makes 16 man deployment a very bad idea. We have already locked everyone we can out of PC for quite some time so I suppose the fact that it has finally at least reached a possible point that it can function for most people in the game it is time to do all we can to break another game mode. Next lets add SP locks to game modes so that we can run as many people out of the game as possible. I think I figured it out. You got PC fixed by exploiting billions of ISK and now you are trying to get Dust ported to PS4 or PC by making it miserable enough for everyone else that CCP thinks the PS3 is finally dead? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:43:00 - [189] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: Kain Spero wrote: True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players. FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Just because its an 'end game' doesn't mean it should be relocated to those that can exploit it the best. It needs a reasonable point of entry that it currently does not have (and no, these changes aren't going to provide one - go try playing in a public squad sometime, people do not work together). I'd also like to point out that True Adamances words should be taken with a hefty grain of salt as he rarely logs in and almost never plays. I like you True, but you and aero both have a lot of negative traits, especially when it comes to complaining on the forums to get changes you'd 'like' for a game you can't even be said to really play. I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort. I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users. Kane spero logic: "the system can already be exploited so let's make it easier to exploit rather than fix its exploitation". Q-syncing is something that needs to go, anyone that defends it or is genuinely in favor of platoons is pushing an afenda with a massive conflict of interest present. The current system is broken, massively exploitable and people defend it under the premise of an "open world" that has never existed for us. If I can q-sync enemy teams should be able to deploy 6-12 extra people against us. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 900	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:52:00 - [190] - Quote Between pubs (ambush, dom, skirm, and acquisition) and FW we only have 5 instant match experiences in Dust and not one of them caters to team deployments. I find that totally unacceptable. And yet, now that the mechanic we need to change that situation is nigh, it's still has dissenters. In my view, the only acceptable recompense for sacrificing 6-man pub squads across 4 match types is to get full 16-player team deploy in just one--FW.

Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:53:00 - [191] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Why is it that no one in your corp can understand simple mathematics? I'm actually due to study mathematics as a graduate student at the Uni. of Oxford this upcoming year. As such, I feel reasonably confident when I say what you describe as "basic" mathematics in your posts is neither mathematics in the strictest sense of the rigor required for proper mathematical discourse, nor does it resemble mathematics that is "basic". Mathematical modelling is an entire discipline that takes serious study to understand properly. In this case we'd need to discuss a sincere amount of probability theory in deriving an appropriate approximation of the main thing we'd want to know, which is average wait time on a by-group-size basis. Realistically there are variables which can only be guessed experimentally, such as the average size of a group in the Factional Warfare matching pool. We could wax eloquent all day about how we might look to model player queuing, and queue theory in and of itself is literally its own area of research (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory). I think it's clear that none of us have the time to write a thesis on the subject. You did have the seeds of a model that I think you were trying to use to make conclusions about potential waiting time situations. It was flawed in that you assumed that matches won't start without full 16 man teams on each side, which I believe is experimentally not the case. Given the complexity of analyzing a queuing system like this from a mathematical standpoint, you'd probably be better served by discussing some other aspect of FW grouping concerns. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:02:00 - [192] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Why is it that no one in your corp can understand simple mathematics? I'm actually due to study mathematics as a graduate student at the Uni. of Oxford this upcoming year. As such, I feel reasonably confident when I say what you describe as "basic" mathematics in your posts is neither mathematics in the strictest sense of the rigor required for proper mathematical discourse, nor does it resemble mathematics that is "basic". Mathematical modelling is an entire discipline that takes serious study to understand properly. In this case we'd need to discuss a sincere amount of probability theory in deriving an appropriate approximation of the main thing we'd want to know, which is average wait time on a by-group-size basis. Realistically there are variables which can only be guessed experimentally, such as the average size of a group in the Factional Warfare matching pool. We could wax eloquent all day about how we might look to model player queuing, and queue theory in and of itself is literally its own area of research (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory). I think it's clear that none of us have the time to write a thesis on the subject. You did have the seeds of a model that I think you were trying to use to make conclusions about potential waiting time situations. It was flawed in that you assumed that matches won't start without full 16 man teams on each side, which I believe is experimentally not the case. Given the complexity of analyzing a queuing system like this from a mathematical standpoint, you'd probably be better served by discussing some other aspect of FW grouping concerns. GG sir GG. We can see from what it takes to jump start FW in the morning that it does strictly take 16 people ready to enter battle for a match to begin. Unfortunately this is the only pure example as most matches after that end up with at least a couple of people getting Scotty or DCing which does present the illusion that the match has started with less than 16 people. The simplicity of it is this. The match must have 16 people to start and when squad sizes over 50% of the match size those involved are left waiting on their lucky number of players to hit to be able to go in. When you take that into account with the fact that at that point squads can be anywhere from 1 to 16 people the probability of having 16 people ready to go on either side with exactly matching numbers is significantly reduced. Queuing up in anything less than a 16 man squad becomes more of a game of luck than opening strong boxes 1 at a time. Look at that how ever you wish. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:13:00 - [193] - Quote On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:21:00 - [194] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. You can ask anyone that takes part in jump starts about the 16 man thing. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. Don't we already screw over new players enough that even the chance of hurting them even more is enough to consider if something is a bad call? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:30:00 - [195] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:37:00 - [196] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Okay so give me a basic example of how queue times get screwed over in 8 v 8 and lets compare. Oh wait with no number greater than 50% of the required total there is not a single such example of more than enough people searching for battle without a battle taking place. That is all that needs to be said. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:53:00 - [197] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Okay so give me a basic example of how queue times get screwed over in 8 v 8 and lets compare. Oh wait with no number greater than 50% of the required total there is not a single such example of more than enough people searching for battle without a battle taking place. That is all that needs to be said. Unfortunately I'm going to have to stop responding for awhile with the note that it's easier to make incorrect statements like yours than it is to debunk them. If there's a 0% probability of something happening, the fact that it exists as a configuration of the given system is irrelevant in a reasonable model. Additionally, purporting that queue times get "screwed up" in particular configurations without anything approaching rigorous reasoning is incorrect and irresponsible. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:57:00 - [198] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Okay so give me a basic example of how queue times get screwed over in 8 v 8 and lets compare. Oh wait with no number greater than 50% of the required total there is not a single such example of more than enough people searching for battle without a battle taking place. That is all that needs to be said. Unfortunately I'm going to have to stop responding for awhile with the note that it's easier to make incorrect statements like yours than it is to debunk them. If there's a 0% probability of something happening, the fact that it exists as a configuration of the given system is irrelevant in a reasonable model. Additionally, purporting that queue times get "screwed up" in particular configurations without anything approaching rigorous reasoning is incorrect and irresponsible. Yea I guess pros and cons lists never work without a full model. I do appreciate your view on it all. The links you posted are proving a fun read at the moment. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:00:00 - [199] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Between pubs (ambush, dom, skirm, and acquisition) and FW we only have 5 instant match experiences in Dust and not one of them caters to team deployments. I find that totally unacceptable. And yet, now that the mechanic we need to change that situation is nigh, it's still has dissenters. In my view, the only acceptable recompense for sacrificing 6-man pub squads across 4 match types is to get full 16-player team deploy in just one--FW. I have to say that in light of squad sizes getting reduced in public matches which include 3 different game modes allow 1 game mode (FW skirmish) to be team deployment focused is more than reasonable. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:00:00 - [200] - Quote System prioritizes squad sizes. That means it rapidly generates matches to dump 16 man squads. It then immediately dumps in the 9-15 groups, filling in gaps as needed. Then it drops the 8s. Then continues down. The more people who queue, the faster the process goes. If you get 8 miscellaneous squads in the queue with 500 solos, they get dumped on each other. Then the game rapidly generates 25 more matches for the randumbs There's not going to be any idiotic exclusion. This is tinfoil... More tinfoil... And look! More tinfoil! And singe the matchmaker in FW literally looks to pit larger groups against each other, there are still lots of places for smaller queues to fall in. Trying to force FW to cater to solos isn't expanding the game play. It's fostering that "individual > team" mentality catered to in other games. If I wanted that I'd play those other games. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:15:00 - [201] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: System prioritizes squad sizes. That means it rapidly generates matches to dump 16 man squads. It then immediately dumps in the 9-15 groups, filling in gaps as needed. Then it drops the 8s. Then continues down. The more people who queue, the faster the process goes. If you get 8 miscellaneous squads in the queue with 500 solos, they get dumped on each other. Then the game rapidly generates 25 more matches for the randumbs There's not going to be any idiotic exclusion. This is tinfoil... More tinfoil... And look! More tinfoil! And singe the matchmaker in FW literally looks to pit larger groups against each other, there are still lots of places for smaller queues to fall in. Trying to force FW to cater to solos isn't expanding the game play. It's fostering that "individual > team" mentality catered to in other games. If I wanted that I'd play those other games. What happens when a bunch of 9 man squads have priority? How about when a 12 man squad has been searching for 5 minutes and a 16 man squad jumps in? The biggest question of all is how the hell is sticking to 8 man squads who as you even stated get priority building the system around individuals? Sticking to 8 man squads caters to smaller squads far more than solos . 500 people searching for FW? HAHAHAHAHA at many points in the day that is more than 30% of the online players. We only manage to even open up the game mode when 32 people get together and force it to start. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:18:00 - [202] - Quote It's always both tragic and highly amusing when emotive issues such as this are discussed on the forums. There are few things as unintentionally funny as nerd rage. 1.2 is already at Sony for approval meaning can't be changed without a later hotfix. So come release FW will be limited to Squads and Fireteams. Like I said it'll take at least a few weeks to create the fix to add Team Deploy so we'll have the data coming from it with the new 1.2 mechanics. Once we have this data prior to any fix I'd support the addition of full deploy for a comparative study. I have to say however that I don't think TD will be allowed to stay on because I think any data study will show that its killing FW. Regardless of the arguments for and against TD in FW the one thing that I'd hope everyone will agree on it that teamwork is OP. A 16 Man team will be better organised. So once we have a couple of them swirling around FW on any given day, whats going to happen is this. Solo players and smaller squads are just going to start to leave matches when they see a 16 Man team. Quitting is the new black at the moment it seems. These 16 man teams are going to find that they keep playing matches against only a handful of players on the other side. And so it will continue until the opposing faction gets a 16 man team up as well and from that point both teams will always be put against each other. After a few days it'll dawn to nearly all FW players that it'll be pointless to play FW unless they can get a 16 man team together. You can make mathematical models as much as you want but none of them will take into account human nature. Very soon after its rolled out 16 v 16 teams will be the defacto standard match up because smaller squads will learn to stay the hell away from FW. And then the complaining about always playing the same two teams will start.... The upshot is yes, you will get 'good' fights but be prepared to be fighting the same team over and over again. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 304	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:36:00 - [203] - Quote Then thanks a ******* lot CPM. ^ CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:42:00 - [204] - Quote Again, you have public skirmish, public ambush, public domination, and public acquisition all protected by matchmaking and all having the addition of reduced squad sizes to four. Having FW skirmish be geared more towards organized play is more than reasonable, Dennie, and something that has been clamored for in the community for years. As for people leaving matches do you FW? We've already been deploying full teams of corp members and sometimes people leave and sometimes they don't, but the way the FW team builder is designed it will always fill up the team. Those that joined late don't get paid any less than those that stuck through the whole match. The more syncs you have the more likely they are to go against each other. The FW teambuilder already does its best to place the largest groups at any given time against each other that are in the queue irrespective of those groups "quality" or MU. You also have many syncs that are full of completely random groups of people. This is actually more of the norm rather than the rule. Probably one of the most important aspects here is that it allows members from corps across New Eden to play together and socialize. Also, redline matches are boring and they are not what's desired. State Task Force and Negative-Feedback have an ongoing friendly rivalry where we get excited when the other is syncing and do our best to try and fight each other. Acting like we don't already have a form of team deploy in the system and that adding a UI for what players already do every day is ridiculous. Your position on this especially after compromises were made on the front of 4 man squads in pubs makes me feel that you are truly out of touch especially with the FW community. Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:53:00 - [205] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 307	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:55:00 - [206] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. The incentive to fight is LP and affecting EVE Online. Lets not forget the fact that we've complained about the **** LP payouts. They boosted LP to add more incentive to fight. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:02:00 - [207] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. The incentive to fight is LP and affecting EVE Online. Lets not forget the fact that we've complained about the **** LP payouts. They boosted LP to add more incentive to fight. I was speaking more to all game modes on that part. With regards to FW every single one of us know that point that a match is lost and that no profit is going to be made no matter what happens so the whole match just turns into waiting for it to end. There are anomalies in there that go against that such as wanting bragging rights or whatever but none of the rest of our team share those feelings unless there is at minimum a partial sync so that we can get others excited. I am not even bothering to say what I have tried to get people to see in that whole thing as this thread has been argumentative enough. What I will say is that something needs to be done for both FW and pubs because we can all agree on that. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Spaceman-Rob Dead Man's Game 853	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:11:00 - [208] - Quote I can't believe we're not getting team deploy, I thought it's what we all wanted
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:15:00 - [209] - Quote I was talking to SMB on this point this evening in-game actually. I think one potential solution would be to give players 40% reimbursement win or loose but make all of the salvage go to the winners similar to what was done with PC payouts. The differential in LP should provide incentive to win along with the salvage while the ISK reimbursement would encourage players to go hard even In a loosing fight. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:44:00 - [210] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. The incentive to fight is LP and affecting EVE Online. Lets not forget the fact that we've complained about the **** LP payouts. They boosted LP to add more incentive to fight. I was speaking more to all game modes on that part. With regards to FW every single one of us know that point that a match is lost and that no profit is going to be made no matter what happens so the whole match just turns into waiting for it to end. There are anomalies in there that go against that such as wanting bragging rights or whatever but none of the rest of our team share those feelings unless there is at minimum a partial sync so that we can get others excited. I am not even bothering to say what I have tried to get people to see in that whole thing as this thread has been argumentative enough. What I will say is that something needs to be done for both FW and pubs because we can all agree on that. You steps out of pubs? Then you pays your money, and takes your chances. The FW queue was never intended to be "balanced" or "fair." If youwant fair and to never have to worry about getting pasted just stay in pubs. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:45:00 - [211] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It's always both tragic and highly amusing when emotive issues such as this are discussed on the forums. There are few things as unintentionally funny as nerd rage. 1.2 is already at Sony for approval meaning can't be changed without a later hotfix. So come release FW will be limited to Squads and Fireteams. Like I said it'll take at least a few weeks to create the fix to add Team Deploy so we'll have the data coming from it with the new 1.2 mechanics. Once we have this data prior to any fix I'd support the addition of full deploy for a comparative study. I have to say however that I don't think TD will be allowed to stay on because I think any data study will show that its killing FW. Regardless of the arguments for and against TD in FW the one thing that I'd hope everyone will agree on it that teamwork is OP. A 16 Man team will be better organised. So once we have a couple of them swirling around FW on any given day, whats going to happen is this. Solo players and smaller squads are just going to start to leave matches when they see a 16 Man team. Quitting is the new black at the moment it seems. These 16 man teams are going to find that they keep playing matches against only a handful of players on the other side. And so it will continue until the opposing faction gets a 16 man team up as well and from that point both teams will always be put against each other. After a few days it'll dawn to nearly all FW players that it'll be pointless to play FW unless they can get a 16 man team together. You can make mathematical models as much as you want but none of them will take into account human nature. Very soon after its rolled out 16 v 16 teams will be the defacto standard match up because smaller squads will learn to stay the hell away from FW. And then the complaining about always playing the same two teams will start.... The upshot is yes, you will get 'good' fights but be prepared to be fighting the same team over and over again. Good job how about i sh!t in my hands and start clapping to your efforts of not helping organised players. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:51:00 - [212] - Quote You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16. Deploy it by all means. But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here. CPM 2 Candidate CEO of DUST University
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:56:00 - [213] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16. Deploy it by all means. But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here. The majority who does not give a damn? Well played im allways amazed to see useless people in the CPM position. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 10:06:00 - [214] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16. Deploy it by all means. But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here. The majority who does not give a damn? Well played im allways amazed to see useless people in the CPM position. So the community caring means someone gets to speak for them? Oh no you meant just because they don't come on the forums they don't give a damn I guess. Out of all the people I know in Dust a large portion of them do not even have a way besides a phone or their ps3 to come to the forums if they wanted to. Out of everyone most players either realize that the forums are mostly bullshit while the rest are just here to log in and play the game. They could care less about trying to play forum games when they have a console in front of them that they bought just for playing actual games. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 10:11:00 - [215] - Quote I am sure fighting 16 organised players will encourage more people to take part in faction warfare.players don't abandon pub matches because, lol, its only 6 people in a squad, 6 is too little! they are actively seeking the 16 man challenge! just cut the bull, team deploy in fw is just a way to run free pc level stomps vs unorganised players. that's what you want. after a long history of stomping people away from the game, you idiots still think stomping more players out of dust is a good thing. let alone the stupid que times. any solo player ahead of you in any que locks out your entire team. 2 squads of 8, a solo player locks out half of your team. fw is still a pub game mode with lp instead of isk. just easier to coordinate. that's why most of you run it. It isn't hardcore, there's no barrier of entry. frankly, doing what dust players always do. now that pubs are better organised to fight players at a similar level, run off to where there is zero matchmaking and the highest probability of fighting unorganised noobs or lesser organised randoms with a stacked team. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.06.30 10:14:00 - [216] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. there will be. Just like the calls to rwmove all vehicles from a game mode were heeded. Just like the call to limit squads in pubs by reducing them by 2 was heeded. Part of the game is teaching players that working together brings the best results. Why are we pulling back and making it so that organization and teamwork don't matter as much? Teamwork is being treated like exploitive behavior. That's a bad precedent to set in a team tactical shooter. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 10:21:00 - [217] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. there will be. Just like the calls to rwmove all vehicles from a game mode were heeded. Just like the call to limit squads in pubs by reducing them by 2 was heeded. Part of the game is teaching players that working together brings the best results. Why are we pulling back and making it so that organization and teamwork don't matter as much? Teamwork is being treated like exploitive behavior. That's a bad precedent to set in a team tactical shooter. Cause unsocial solo scrubs>teamplayers. And this reminds me why i cannot be dissapointed by a CPM cause i dont even expect anything from them to begin with. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Middas Betancore 590	Posted - 2015.06.30 11:45:00 - [218] - Quote Read through the arguments, I'm still in favour of team deploy, solos an unsocials are still gonna get crushed in Fw an quit, cos we are still gonna be stacking teams, still going to have massacres and people quitting At least team deploy would give them a mechanic to fight back with Gallente scrub 1: " golly, I've sure had my fill of those damnable State Task Force, what shall we do chaps?" Gallente Meatshield:" I'm gonna leave and never return ever cos I lost" Gallente Scrub 2:"I know let's make a platoon, put in sqd finder...we can brief ppl before battle an get them more organised..with Freedom an Tacos" Gallente Scrub 1:" smashing idea number 2, let's hop to it, if it works maybe we can do it more regularly" I get that ppl will fight the same teams more regularly...but still with TD wouldn't there be a chance for ppl to fight back against teamwork... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see FW getting any worse with this feature. Please don't dismiss me with lol fw player bias I'm trying to view this objectively and I'm discussing the idea with less organised players to get a diff view Onnamon 4-State Protectorate Logistics Support State Task Force: Caldari Fw Channel CPM2 Candidate
Middas Betancore 590	Posted - 2015.06.30 11:50:00 - [219] - Quote Pubs = hi sec FW = lo sec/fw space PC = null sec Maybe the Dev team is turning away from their idea of FW being PC lite Instead it's pubs with LP? Onnamon 4-State Protectorate Logistics Support State Task Force: Caldari Fw Channel CPM2 Candidate
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:26:00 - [220] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: Pubs = hi sec FW = lo sec/fw space PC = null sec Maybe the Dev team is turning away from their idea of FW being PC lite Instead it's pubs with LP? Appearently FW is Pubs+ rather then PC light. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:35:00 - [221] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: Pubs = hi sec FW = lo sec/fw space PC = null sec Maybe the Dev team is turning away from their idea of FW being PC lite Instead it's pubs with LP? Well, the current implementation we know of is: Pubs = 4 man Fireteams FW = 8 man Squads PC = 16 man Platoons So you could call FW "PC Lite" I don't bother listing that you can deploy with Fireteams in FW and PC (etc), because only the highest possible size will matter if you really want to be competitive. So we can forget about 8 man squads... It will be a jump from 4 man Fireteams -> 16 man Platoons, which is a quite steep jump when you think about it. After reading basically every post in this thread I can safely conclude we all want team deploy in FW. That's not the question. Hell, I would love it given the right circumstances. What we disagree about is if right now is the time to have it, based on today's implementation of FW? I side with the more cautious camp...
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 378	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:45:00 - [222] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. there will be. Just like the calls to rwmove all vehicles from a game mode were heeded. Just like the call to limit squads in pubs by reducing them by 2 was heeded. Part of the game is teaching players that working together brings the best results. Why are we pulling back and making it so that organization and teamwork don't matter as much? Teamwork is being treated like exploitive behavior. That's a bad precedent to set in a team tactical shooter. If someone need a full team for a great result maybe it s because he needs 4 people to kill 1, while someone that can run also solo and carry a team to the victory for sure will perform good also in a squad The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 378	Posted - 2015.06.30 12:48:00 - [223] - Quote Middas Betancore wrote: Read through the arguments, I'm still in favour of team deploy, solos an unsocials are still gonna get crushed in Fw an quit, cos we are still gonna be stacking teams, still going to have massacres and people quitting At least team deploy would give them a mechanic to fight back with Gallente scrub 1: " golly, I've sure had my fill of those damnable State Task Force, what shall we do chaps?" Gallente Meatshield:" I'm gonna leave and never return ever cos I lost" Gallente Scrub 2:"I know let's make a platoon, put in sqd finder...we can brief ppl before battle an get them more organised..with Freedom an Tacos" Gallente Scrub 1:" smashing idea number 2, let's hop to it, if it works maybe we can do it more regularly" I get that ppl will fight the same teams more regularly...but still with TD wouldn't there be a chance for ppl to fight back against teamwork... Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see FW getting any worse with this feature. Please don't dismiss me with lol fw player bias I'm trying to view this objectively and I'm discussing the idea with less organised players to get a diff view Oh my god, so those two blueberries with 14 randoms will stomp a proto q-sync. What did you drunk brah? The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:24:00 - [224] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16. Deploy it by all means. But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here. Except when I say all the community in my experience that's not only from the forums but from in-game as well ( you know, in-game, where most people actually are). Through basically every big faction warfare channel in the game active or now defunct whether it be Luxiferians Elite, State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, Chosen Matari, PIE Ground Control, LOLRoman's Boat, DUST OB Min/GAL, etc. One thing that's been pretty universal is the desire to be able to deploy with a full team in a game mode that has friendly fire where things like awoxing and disruption of coms on occasion occur. It's also an issue of unleashing the social potential for Dust as well. The real travesty here though seems to be that the notion of not having platoons in FW wasn't brought to the community before code lock occured in this patch. That definitely feels like an old CCP situation. Also if this has code lock and is being reviewed by Sony QA that means the PC numbers for things like CP and Districts have also been set without a further discussion in the community as was mentioned would occur. A lack of community discussion on these fronts is a bit worrisome. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Middas Betancore 591	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:35:00 - [225] - Quote They may not beat a proto sync right away....but it has to start somewhere...better they have the tools to try I think I don't like referring back to it but q syncing isn't going to stop in FW. why not at least streamline the process an make it accessible to all... Onnamon 4-State Protectorate Logistics Support State Task Force: Caldari Fw Channel CPM2 Candidate
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:57:00 - [226] - Quote Yokal Bob wrote: Hawkin P wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Shut it you. You have done quite enough. I don't think I have ever said this before and probably never will again, but Kain is right. Dust is a desolate wasteland these days. It has gotten this way because too many people want to talk about things and wait to see if something will get better, instead of implementing immediate change. This game is dying and near death. Full 16 man Team deploy is something that should of been added years ago along with the introduction of PC, and added to pub matches. 8 man squads are a hollow gesture. 4 man squads WTF? Really? You can have 4 man squads now just form a 4 man squad. It makes me laugh to think that is is going to be a feature that is boasted about. The whole point of dust is getting to play with your corp, playing with large squads. Practicing for PC. 8 man squads is not enough and 4 man squads is just really the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Team deploy should not be in pub matches, are you having a laugh? Solo/casual plyers have a hard time as it is with the lack of matchmaking sticking all of them together against 2 or 3 squads. As for FW I'm not really for it, but as it affects EVE in such a way, I understand the logic behind it and willing to accept it. Yeah, it needs to be kept in mind just how much many EVE FW pilots HATE us because Dust matches ruin their attempts to capture systems. Yokal is absolutely right that Team Deploy has NO place in Public Contracts. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 534	Posted - 2015.06.30 13:57:00 - [227] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: Kain Spero wrote: True Adamance hit's the nail on the head. Public matches are designed with match making and soon four-man squads to cater to fireteams (4 man groups) and solo players. FW deserves to be just as much of an end-game as Planetary Conquest. And those that want to experience group play in a game mode designed for it with friendly fire shouldn't be punished. Just because its an 'end game' doesn't mean it should be relocated to those that can exploit it the best. It needs a reasonable point of entry that it currently does not have (and no, these changes aren't going to provide one - go try playing in a public squad sometime, people do not work together). I'd also like to point out that True Adamances words should be taken with a hefty grain of salt as he rarely logs in and almost never plays. I like you True, but you and aero both have a lot of negative traits, especially when it comes to complaining on the forums to get changes you'd 'like' for a game you can't even be said to really play. I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort. I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users. Please post FoxFour's post about syncs to show that it's not an exploit rather players working with the half ass tools that FoxFour gave us. The problem back then was that the rewards were absolute crap. So nobody used them.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 14:55:00 - [228] - Quote Sure thing Thor: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 CCP FoxFour wrote: While CCP Nullarbor works on the new matchmaking system we are working on the design of an enhanced squads system that would let you queue entire teams for Factional Warfare. While it won't come out with the new matchmaking CCP Nullarbor is developing the new matchmaking to allow full team queueing for Factional Warfare. The idea being that if you can take an entire team and queue for Factional Warfare you should allow you to go corp versus corp so long as you both have 2 full teams. Since there won't be that many full teams queueing at the same time if you want to fight a specific team you should be able to queue sync easily. While this is obviously not perfect and only partially covers what you are seeking we feel it is a better first step in that direction as it covers more people and does more for the game. We can then look at actual corp versus corp again later. Hope that helps! :D Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 15:24:00 - [229] - Quote But what about the solo players kain? They surely want a chance to ruin your improvised PC match. Its just not fair that two full teams go head onto each other. There should at least be 6 random twatts that redline snipe or go 1-20. Ya know so that they can leech of LP of the teams effort. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 15:58:00 - [230] - Quote This argument is not a discussion of two sides of the same coin. Some people like Kain and Bright are arguing: "DUST deserves a game mode that supports TD". Other people like me are arguing: "The current implementation of FW cannot support TD". Although these argument are related, they are not in opposition. I don't think Deezy, Mina or I are against team deploy. We are just opposed to putting TD into a FW system where there is a limit on players. At the end of the day, I agree with Kevall. If we implement team deploy in FW's current state , we're going to see "CCP fix FW now!", "[Suggestion] Improving FW incentives" and "[Faction 1] / [Faction 2] kickstart event" threads on the forums. "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior

Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.30 16:25:00 - [231] - Quote I just came to the conversation but instead of a 16 man team, what about an implementation of a way to link (Q-Sync) several squads and not be one large 16 man squad. That way the ones requesting a better way to Q-Sync get their wish and the ones that want to solo/join matches get theres. Not all factions that fight are always full from the get-go. With that being said, (like Local) create a chat channel that goes on everyone's comms for each faction or create a squad finder feature for each faction to assist the not-quite-16 man teams to fill gaps. Instead of being put into a que for a map...you are put in a que for a team.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 16:26:00 - [232] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: This argument is not a discussion of two sides of the same coin. Some people like Kain and Bright are arguing: "DUST deserves a game mode that supports TD". Other people like me are arguing: "The current implementation of FW cannot support TD". Although these argument are related, they are not in opposition. I don't think Deezy, Mina or I are against team deploy. We are just opposed to putting TD into a FW system where there is a limit on players. At the end of the day, I agree with Kevall. If we implement team deploy in FW's current state , we're going to see "CCP fix FW now!", "[Suggestion] Improving FW incentives" and "[Faction 1] / [Faction 2] kickstart event" threads on the forums. No either you are for team deploy or you are a scrub. Its that simple. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 16:28:00 - [233] - Quote Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: I just came to the conversation but instead of a 16 man team, what about an implementation of a way to link (Q-Sync) several squads and not be one large 16 man squad. That way the ones requesting a better way to Q-Sync get their wish and the ones that want to solo/join matches get theres. Not all factions that fight are always full from the get-go. With that being said, (like Local) create a chat channel that goes on everyone's comms for each faction or create a squad finder feature for each faction to assist the not-quite-16 man teams to fill gaps. Instead of being put into a que for a map...you are put in a que for a team. Q-sync already exists and is the whole reason not allowing a 16 man group falls flat. Leaving the mechanics to just q-syncing means that only a select few that know how to operation the mechanic actually can execute a team deploy. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Asad Thahab-Jabal Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.30 16:32:00 - [234] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Asad Thahab-Jabal wrote: I just came to the conversation but instead of a 16 man team, what about an implementation of a way to link (Q-Sync) several squads and not be one large 16 man squad. That way the ones requesting a better way to Q-Sync get their wish and the ones that want to solo/join matches get theres. Not all factions that fight are always full from the get-go. With that being said, (like Local) create a chat channel that goes on everyone's comms for each faction or create a squad finder feature for each faction to assist the not-quite-16 man teams to fill gaps. Instead of being put into a que for a map...you are put in a que for a team. Q-sync already exists and is the whole reason not allowing a 16 man group falls flat. Leaving the mechanics to just q-syncing means that only a select few that know how to operation the mechanic actually can execute a team deploy. That is why I am saying that CCP create a function within the Squad Finder in order to link the squads well before the match is even queued. So that EVERYONE will know.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.06.30 18:17:00 - [235] - Quote Ah ok. Yeah I think that was one way there were going to go about it but the technical side got messy so large squads were implemented as a solution. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:00:00 - [236] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: This argument is not a discussion of two sides of the same coin. Some people like Kain and Bright are arguing: "DUST deserves a game mode that supports TD". Other people like me are arguing: "The current implementation of FW cannot support TD". Although these argument are related, they are not in opposition. I don't think Deezy, Mina or I are against team deploy. We are just opposed to putting TD into a FW system where there is a limit on players. At the end of the day, I agree with Kevall. If we implement team deploy in FW's current state , we're going to see "CCP fix FW now!", "[Suggestion] Improving FW incentives" and "[Faction 1] / [Faction 2] kickstart event" threads on the forums. That's a bit of a null implication, since those threads should be present with or without any changes to deploying mechanics. FW isn't in a fantastic state, and needs to be in contention for the next "big thing" to be looked at after PC. It probably should have come before PC. If you have a good logical reason why people will vacate FW given a change to 16 players instead of 8, by all means. But I don't think that FW's reward structure being broken is a product of any grouping concerns. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:34:00 - [237] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Sure thing Thor: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 CCP FoxFour wrote: While CCP Nullarbor works on the new matchmaking system we are working on the design of an enhanced squads system that would let you queue entire teams for Factional Warfare. While it won't come out with the new matchmaking CCP Nullarbor is developing the new matchmaking to allow full team queueing for Factional Warfare. The idea being that if you can take an entire team and queue for Factional Warfare you should allow you to go corp versus corp so long as you both have 2 full teams. Since there won't be that many full teams queueing at the same time if you want to fight a specific team you should be able to queue sync easily. While this is obviously not perfect and only partially covers what you are seeking we feel it is a better first step in that direction as it covers more people and does more for the game. We can then look at actual corp versus corp again later. Hope that helps! :D He said very clearly that they CCP Nullarbor is working on it but it will not be included with the new matchmaking. Was there another update saying it was added? We know how things get sidelined so I can not imagine that it made its way in. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
benandjerrys Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 196	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:39:00 - [238] - Quote That EvE convo belongs in here from the other day... ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Let's bring back Dust/EvE cross content
Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:42:00 - [239] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: This argument is not a discussion of two sides of the same coin. Some people like Kain and Bright are arguing: "DUST deserves a game mode that supports TD". Other people like me are arguing: "The current implementation of FW cannot support TD". Although these argument are related, they are not in opposition. I don't think Deezy, Mina or I are against team deploy. We are just opposed to putting TD into a FW system where there is a limit on players. At the end of the day, I agree with Kevall. If we implement team deploy in FW's current state , we're going to see "CCP fix FW now!", "[Suggestion] Improving FW incentives" and "[Faction 1] / [Faction 2] kickstart event" threads on the forums. That's a bit of a null implication, since those threads should be present with or without any changes to deploying mechanics. FW isn't in a fantastic state, and needs to be in contention for the next "big thing" to be looked at after PC. It probably should have come before PC. If you have a good logical reason why people will vacate FW given a change to 16 players instead of 8, by all means. But I don't think that FW's reward structure being broken is a product of any grouping concerns. I think that people will leave more often with 16 man squads for some of the same reasons that newer corps don't go into PC: there isn't a reasonable expectation of an even fight. I understand that FW is not designed to be even all of the time. However, think one of the conditions for queuing for FW is: "I believe that, more often than not, me and my team mates will get good fights instead of bad ones", where "Good fights" could be defined as "Fight that we win", "Fights that give me lots of LP", "Fights that are close", etc. I don't think that the aforementioned condition will be satisfied for a group of 4-8 people who want to play FW. They will be going up against a much more organized team, and (I contend) will lose more often than not. Instead of queuing for a game mode where the reasonable expectation is: "I will, more often than not, get into bad fights instead of good ones", people will queue for game modes where that condition is satisfied. And that is going to be Pubs. "For people who don't really do S**T, ya'll really doing the most" Lv. 1 Forum Warrior
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 248	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:59:00 - [240] - Quote This thread needs to die! Ok. We are all mad that CCP chose to "try" the in slow process by only allowing 8 man squads which means now we will have two of those syncing, but that is their choose. These guys have been called things on this forum that would make you pucker. Lets just step back and make sure that those 8 man groups can be in squad finder as 8 and go to fight in their world. I don't want to destroy FW just to stage a sit in. Sorry Bright Cloud, I agree this is stupid to go in slow, but we need to own the stupid. Just like always we will wait for "Soon". Maybe the new PC mode will handle our 16 man team fights. Especially if they reduce the cost of clone packs, maybe some districts will be in constant contention and we will be up to our ears in PC. "Maybe she will look better naked, I'm going in." Approach to the world. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?

Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 790	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:00:00 - [241] - Quote This would be so awesome for faction based corporations. Saying what's on people's minds
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:00:00 - [242] - Quote FW is kickstarted by qsyncs and not solo players..that being said I think FW should have TD, here is why..PC is like once or twice a day FW can last most of a day, the top corps will now be busy in FW since it'll be easier than qsyncing which leaves better matches in pubs as the top players will be fighting in FW now..of course this may not be the case as I noticed the current players are far from the old ones..the old players loved competition but the new ones seem to not like competition.. Benefits-top tier corps will spend more time in FW instead of pubstomping..more players in FW as they don't have to wait 30 minutes for a qsync to not have issues Downfall- I see none tbh..you can put in all these variables using math but those same variables happen now, you can deny it if you wish I really don't care. Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:08:00 - [243] - Quote Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when on 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:17:00 - [244] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: This argument is not a discussion of two sides of the same coin. Some people like Kain and Bright are arguing: "DUST deserves a game mode that supports TD". Other people like me are arguing: "The current implementation of FW cannot support TD". Although these argument are related, they are not in opposition. I don't think Deezy, Mina or I are against team deploy. We are just opposed to putting TD into a FW system where there is a limit on players. At the end of the day, I agree with Kevall. If we implement team deploy in FW's current state , we're going to see "CCP fix FW now!", "[Suggestion] Improving FW incentives" and "[Faction 1] / [Faction 2] kickstart event" threads on the forums. That's a bit of a null implication, since those threads should be present with or without any changes to deploying mechanics. FW isn't in a fantastic state, and needs to be in contention for the next "big thing" to be looked at after PC. It probably should have come before PC. If you have a good logical reason why people will vacate FW given a change to 16 players instead of 8, by all means. But I don't think that FW's reward structure being broken is a product of any grouping concerns. I think that people will leave more often with 16 man squads for some of the same reasons that newer corps don't go into PC: there isn't a reasonable expectation of an even fight. I understand that FW is not designed to be even all of the time. However, think one of the conditions for queuing for FW is: "I believe that, more often than not, me and my team mates will get good fights instead of bad ones", where "Good fights" could be defined as "Fight that we win", "Fights that give me lots of LP", "Fights that are close", etc. I don't think that the aforementioned condition will be satisfied for a group of 4-8 people who want to play FW. They will be going up against a much more organized team, and (I contend) will lose more often than not. Instead of queuing for a game mode where the reasonable expectation is: "I will, more often than not, get into bad fights instead of good ones", people will queue for game modes where that condition is satisfied. And that is going to be Pubs. The same's true of, for instance, FW in Eve. Invariably the smaller organizations who don't want to disband end up coordinating with others who can bolster their ranks to take on the larger corps. Without a much larger player base than it's reasonable to hope coalesces it's unreasonable to expect that segmenting up the number of squads people have to put together for a sync will discernibly impact the number of "high grade" syncs like NF's or Lucent Echelon's that will be entering FW. I said it in 2012, and it has been true for the 2.5 years since: If you leave communities without an easy-to-organize way to get into matches with a full team on short notice, those communities will atrophy and die. Looking at our corporate landscape, that's exactly what has happened. Have a pony
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 538	Posted - 2015.06.30 22:44:00 - [245] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when on 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. There's an old saying, if my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 01:04:00 - [246] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: I said it in 2012, and it has been true for the 2.5 years since: If you leave communities without an easy-to-organize way to get into matches with a full team on short notice, those communities will atrophy and die. Looking at our corporate landscape, that's exactly what has happened. Leither, you and I very rarely agree on things. In this instance I couldn't agree more. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.01 04:45:00 - [247] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Sure thing Thor: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 CCP FoxFour wrote: While CCP Nullarbor works on the new matchmaking system we are working on the design of an enhanced squads system that would let you queue entire teams for Factional Warfare. While it won't come out with the new matchmaking CCP Nullarbor is developing the new matchmaking to allow full team queueing for Factional Warfare. The idea being that if you can take an entire team and queue for Factional Warfare you should allow you to go corp versus corp so long as you both have 2 full teams. Since there won't be that many full teams queueing at the same time if you want to fight a specific team you should be able to queue sync easily. While this is obviously not perfect and only partially covers what you are seeking we feel it is a better first step in that direction as it covers more people and does more for the game. We can then look at actual corp versus corp again later. Hope that helps! :D He said very clearly that they CCP Nullarbor is working on it but it will not be included with the new matchmaking. Was there another update saying it was added? We know how things get sidelined so I can not imagine that it made its way in. FYI, FoxFour's post refers to the updated matchmaking in Uprising 1.4. You know, the one that worked soo good it didn't allow anybody in a match at release, and was (way later) admitted to be completely pulled by CCP Rattati. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2708845#post2708845 Now, this does of course not mean everything was pulled, and perhaps something of what FoxFours Team True Grit was working on made it in. But it's hardly "all there" just waiting for UI.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 06:13:00 - [248] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when on 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. There's an old saying, if my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle. You are related to the Jenners? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 06:14:00 - [249] - Quote Actually, CCP did specifically set the FW team builder that allows teams to deploy minus the user interface. To put it simply the team builder for faction warfare gives priority to larger squads. This simply priority is what allows for a set of squads of 6, 6, and 4 or squads of 5, 5, and 6 to deploy together into FW consistently with issues only arising if an equally large squad deploys at the same time as the sync (one of the extra squads subs out for one in the sync). Groups of 16 deploy with high success for hours on end with a few misfires over the course of syncing. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Hawkin P Molon Labe. RUST415 669	Posted - 2015.07.01 07:07:00 - [250] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first. It takes forever to get ccp to do anything. You go slow with this we might see team deploy in 2017, a month before PS3 is put down. How can you seriously want CCP to go slower about anything? The game has grown completely boring, change is good. FW is a useless appendage that is only good for Qsyncing. Seriously how can so you be so out of touch, with the tortoise like pace dust moves at.? Team Deploy ASAP!!! Molon Labe CEO

Hawkin P Molon Labe. RUST415 669	Posted - 2015.07.01 07:13:00 - [251] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: If you want this game to get to a 'healthier' place, you need to accept, encourage and allow for 'casuals' to play. Casuals don't care about FW, very few do outside of QSYNCing, which is the poor mans team deploy. You need create a reason for ppl to come back to dust. You need to make grand gestures, because doing more of the same never changes anything. Molon Labe CEO
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 391	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:14:00 - [252] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:33:00 - [253] - Quote The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then The exact opposite. By easing the ability to create full team deploys they will not be limited to a select few and thus the current syncs in the game will end up facing other syncs as well. The more syncs in the system the higher the probability that they will themselves face another sync. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:41:00 - [254] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then The exact opposite. By easing the ability to create full team deploys they will not be limited to a select few and thus the current syncs in the game will end up facing other syncs as well. The more syncs in the system the higher the probability that they will themselves face another sync. The issue is as you stated yourself above larger squads get the priority. Is removing everyone from the game mode who does not have a 16 man squad really the answer? In the 8 + 8 system anyone can still sync in and no one gets screwed over. Why is this an issue that has gone like 13 pages now? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 796	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:01:00 - [255] - Quote Just how in the world we have opposition to TD for FW? Seriously dude, what is the sense in that? We want Dust to grow. To provide meaningful content and the execution of thereof. Team Deploy is an absolute necessity to FW. Faction based corporations has long suffered the lack of a CCP sanctioned option of TD. In any case, the qsyncs has been a standard that has been active for many moons. So why the hate for an official option? Team Deploy can not only be an option but a symbol of organized tactical warfare that the game mode promotes. It pushes forward a basis of unity within corporation sets providing purpose and the necessity of growth within corporations. Plus I know Caldari corps would love to have the option lol. Put your tinfoil hats, your doom and gloom, your Mayan end of the world prophecies away. CCP, give FW its TD because its just. Its just another tweak needed in FW. Saying what's on people's minds
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:04:00 - [256] - Quote Again Deezy, you've been told on several occasions that your logic is both inaccurate and flawed. You can keep saying that team deploy will keep people that don't have 16 man platoons until you are blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Again, you make so many assumptions about what pairings will be present it's not even funny. Not to mention assumptions about total player population in faction warfare and don't even consider rolling population numbers or observational evidence that's been collected over the years that directly counters your, quite frankly, short sighted and somewhat moronic claims. The 8 + 8 does actually screw over people that may not play in a main language, multi-lingual groups that would like to form unified teams, and players that probably RARELY come to the forums that don't even know that q-syncing is an actual thing that can be executed. 8+8 won't allow a team to be publicly broadcast so all can join. It won't solve the issue that a custom player channel or corp chat is REQUIRED to execute a sync. This is about giving the faction warfare community the tools that they've be clamouring for for years and allowing the entire Dust community the ability to organize for themselves and easily make teams in an environment and game mode that allows instantaneous matches rather than being forced to only interact with some of the most important in-match social aspects through 24 hour minimum scheduling. Again, you have 5 game modes that are free from scheduling and logistic burdens. Four of which have both match making that takes into account MU to build fair teams and will soon limit groupings to 4 or less players to further enhance that matchmaker. Allowing 1 game mode out these 5 to be geared towards more organized play and teams is hardly onerous or unreasonable. This is especially given that many team deploy champions laid down their swords in limiting squad size in public matches with the understanding that team deploy would finally fully come to faction warfare. CCP needs to allow the faction warfare community to finally realize it's many-year-in-the-making dream of team deploy in Faction Warfare Skirmish. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:35:00 - [257] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again Deezy, you've been told on several occasions that your logic is both inaccurate and flawed. You can keep saying that team deploy will keep people that don't have 16 man platoons until you are blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Again, you make so many assumptions about what pairings will be present it's not even funny. Not to mention assumptions about total player population in faction warfare and don't even consider rolling population numbers or observational evidence that's been collected over the years that directly counters your, quite frankly, short sighted and somewhat moronic claims. The 8 + 8 does actually screw over people that may not play in a main language, multi-lingual groups that would like to form unified teams, and players that probably RARELY come to the forums that don't even know that q-syncing is an actual thing that can be executed. 8+8 won't allow a team to be publicly broadcast so all can join. It won't solve the issue that a custom player channel or corp chat is REQUIRED to execute a sync. This is about giving the faction warfare community the tools that they've be clamouring for for years and allowing the entire Dust community the ability to organize for themselves and easily make teams in an environment and game mode that allows instantaneous matches rather than being forced to only interact with some of the most important in-match social aspects through 24 hour minimum scheduling. Again, you have 5 game modes that are free from scheduling and logistic burdens. Four of which have both match making that takes into account MU to build fair teams and will soon limit groupings to 4 or less players to further enhance that matchmaker. Allowing 1 game mode out these 5 to be geared towards more organized play and teams is hardly onerous or unreasonable. This is especially given that many team deploy champions laid down their swords in limiting squad size in public matches with the understanding that team deploy would finally fully come to faction warfare. CCP needs to allow the faction warfare community to finally realize it's many-year-in-the-making dream of team deploy in the Faction Warfare Skirmish. How many people exactly do you think are playing FW? How many people exactly do you think is on this game at one time? This isn't COD and we barely manage to cross 3000 players online on a very good day. You said yourself as I have stated before that in the current system larger squads get priority. There are only a few hundred people at a time playing FW right now at the best. Is introducing a horribly broken system that only gives priority to the ones who have a 16 man squad going to fix anything about that? Forget whatever and think about this. If there is only a minimal number of actual matches a day and you prioritize the people that have 16 players in their squad what happens to those who do not. There are no numbers needed it is basic logic. I feel like we both very much want the same thing but the simple fact is the current system does not support it. It has been well shown that the system which you keep saying exists does not by public statements. If you know something that the rest of us do not then show me a shred of evidence that it is factual and I will gladly admit I was in the wrong. What it ultimately comes down to is that FW is not PC and placing restrictions on it that make it just as difficult to get into as a PC match helps nobody. We all want district selection and team deploy and probably a few other things but PC has all of the attention so we are forced to take what they can fit in to try to make FW better while they are busy on PC. If I had even a shred of doubt about the fact that 16 man squads would screw up FW for the average player we would not be here right now. That does not mean that I am correct in my doubts but if I am even remotely close to correct why should we risk it. Why risk killing a portion of Dust that many of us love just because us that sync want things to be even easier than they are already being made for us? It really comes down to basic risk analysis. Knowing how long things take to get changed if it were a flop would FW even survive to the point that a change is made? We already scratch by on people within the community forcing it to start so do you believe FW would survive an even bigger blow that takes a month or more to undo? As dedicated faction warfare players we may keep the game mode alive but by no means do we support it. Everyone in the community should have a chance to participate. Higher level players are far more than welcome to join PC where they do have to take part in waiting on 16 players to be on and they do have to think about getting picked by the FC or not. That is not what FW is or what it was meant to be. It is a middle ground where coordination is highly rewarded while taking the risk of joining solo will usually be met with a severe beating and that is how it should be. I can tell you from my experiences that FW creates PC players through seriously stressing the importance of working together without making people hope to be involved. I have people to this day that were absolute newbies when they joined AmarrOne that contact me because they got a mic or just came back to the game and tell me what a change running with us had on their Dust existence. Isn't that what FW should be about? If you think it is just suppose to be another PC then we are all wasting our time. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
iKILLu osborne T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 813	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:51:00 - [258] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Not read the full thirteen or so pages but no offense your post is nonsensical THIS IS A WAR GAME As the more organized win and I'm sure with the help of a gm you can see my wl ratio for cal fw so you k ow that I'm not full of crap when I say caldari (contrary to believe) is easily capable of organized or for that matter you can squad with kirjuun to see they have competent playe red (n`-´)+Æ;;; shotgun blast yo ASs Retired 62mil sp, z platoon vet, og shotty
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 10:53:00 - [259] - Quote Deezy, I'm not sure how many times it can be said that we already see the system operating and accommodating 16 man groups deploying and solo players being slotted into incomplete 16 man groups. In your risk assessment I think you fail to realize one of the key benefits of team deploy to faction warfare, which is the ability to jump start faction warfare at earlier and earlier times, which leads to a snowball effect of more and more players having access to the mode. You mention your experience with AmarrOne, but neglect the fact that team deployments that can be publicly broadcast in squad finder will allow even MORE players to find the exact experience you describe. You need to check you paranoia at the door, take a step back, and realize the benefits that the ability to have a game space where organized play can happen instantly brings to the table. Especially when 80% of instant game modes already cater to solo players and small squads. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:24:00 - [260] - Quote Ok, can we all just stop this rather pointless discussion? Regardless if you are For or Against team deployment in the current implementation of FW, the fact remains that Warlords 1.2 is now at Sony QA, and is likely not going to change until release. To blame the CPM is also ludicrous since we have CPM members who are publicly advocating both for and against Team Deploy. This is ultimately a CCP decision regardless if we agree with it or not..., and they probably had good reasons why they choose not to include full 16 teams in FW. This might change, based on a earlier quote by CCP Rattati regarding team sizes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2625732#post2625732

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:42:00 - [261] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Ok, can we all just stop this rather pointless discussion? Regardless if you are For or Against team deployment in the current implementation of FW, the fact remains that Warlords 1.2 is now at Sony QA, and is likely not going to change until release. To blame the CPM is also ludicrous since we have CPM members who are publicly advocating both for and against Team Deploy. This is ultimately a CCP decision regardless if we agree with it or not..., and they probably had good reasons why they choose not to include full 16 teams in FW. This might change, based on a earlier quote by CCP Rattati regarding team sizes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2625732#post2625732 Until team deploy is implemented in the game the discussion will never be pointless since it is something that the community has wanted and desired for years as has been previously stated. I can guarantee you that if the CPM had unanimously supported team deploy in faction warfare as CPM 0 had then it would have been in the game with 1.2. So, no the entire CPM is not to blame, but the holdouts (as can be seen in this thread) surely didn't help the case for team deploy in Faction Warfare being implemented in 1.2 off the bat. Luckily, it seems that this change can be fixed server side, so this mistake can be corrected quickly and the spotlight needs to be shone on the situation until it is fixed. Not only that, but the fact that the limitation of team deploy to Planetary Conquest occurred without a community discussion on the matter regarding 8 man squads is pretty surprising. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Spectral Clone Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:44:00 - [262] - Quote Hard to fill two "platoons" when the playerbase is so small (and declining). Better focus those resources on a PC port. EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet". My PS3: http://imgur.com/a/5O8ok
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:47:00 - [263] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: Hard to fill two "platoons" when the playerbase is so small (and declining). Better focus those resources on a PC port. Actually syncs happen everyday in FW and those that run the syncs are often the ones that are responsible for pushing back the start time of FW closer and closer right after down time. I have to agree that Dust x86 needs to happen sooner rather than later. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:50:00 - [264] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Ok, can we all just stop this rather pointless discussion? Regardless if you are For or Against team deployment in the current implementation of FW, the fact remains that Warlords 1.2 is now at Sony QA, and is likely not going to change until release. To blame the CPM is also ludicrous since we have CPM members who are publicly advocating both for and against Team Deploy. This is ultimately a CCP decision regardless if we agree with it or not..., and they probably had good reasons why they choose not to include full 16 teams in FW. This might change, based on a earlier quote by CCP Rattati regarding team sizes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2625732#post2625732 Until team deploy is implemented in the game the discussion will never be pointless since it is something that the community has wanted and desired for years as has been previously stated. I can guarantee you that if the CPM had unanimously supported team deploy in faction warfare as CPM 0 had then it would have been in the game with 1.2. So, no the entire CPM is not to blame, but the holdouts (as can be seen in this thread) surely didn't help the case for team deploy in Faction Warfare being implemented in 1.2 off the bat. Luckily, it seems that this change can be fixed server side, so this mistake can be corrected quickly and the spotlight needs to be shone on the situation until it is fixed. Not only that, but the fact that the limitation of team deploy to Planetary Conquest occurred without a community discussion on the matter regarding 8 man squads is pretty surprising. Referring to CPM 0 should be avoided and we all know that. Implementing CPM 0 did more damage to this game than anything aside from the infamous fanfest announcement. If Ratatti and team did not see the amazing flaws in what you are proposing I think they would have gone ahead and flipped the switch before they sent things over to Sony. I suppose by your logic presented in PC before you should go ahead and start breaking the terrible upgrade we are being given so that they can make that quick server side fix. This update happened without discussion of the community because of exactly what we are seeing in this thread. The inability of this community to think past the end of their nose is more than abundant and sometimes self serving measures just are not good for the thousands of people who play this game but are not here on the forums. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:55:00 - [265] - Quote Deezy, I'm sorry but now your ignorance is truly showing. From what CPM 1 members like Dennie has said they are being cautious. Again, since we already have team deploy in it's most basic form in Faction Warfare already there is no reason to NOT flip the switch. Let team deploy out of the box and then if there are issues it seems that CCP more than has the capability to quickly address it. This is a case where using the Golidlocks method would actually prove useful since the scenario of team deploy is already occurring. Again, part of CCP's caution was no doubt because of holdouts on the council that turned their backs on a compromise of letting team deploy occur in FW in light of reduced squad size in public matches. As for the how and why it doesn't really matter only that this mistake is addressed and quickly. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 12:03:00 - [266] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, I'm sorry but now your ignorance is truly showing. From what CPM 1 members like Dennie has said they are being cautious. Again, since we already have team deploy in it's most basic form in Faction Warfare already there is no reason to NOT flip the switch. Let team deploy out of the box and then if there are issues it seems that CCP more than has the capability to quickly address it. This is a case where using the Golidlocks method would actually prove useful since the scenario of team deploy is already occurring. Again, part of CCP's caution was no doubt because of holdouts on the council that turned their backs on a compromise of letting team deploy occur in FW in light of reduced squad size in public matches. As for the how and why it doesn't really matter only that this mistake is addressed and quickly. My ignorance is showing when I am arguing the same thing that according to you CCP has already said? Interesting Why dump on everyone that wants to play a certain game mode so a few people can get what they want? We already saw how that played out in PC and we see now how well that philosophy worked out years later while the pieces are still being picked up. Yes CCP is entirely ran by the CPM and never looks at factors on their own so obviously the whole issue is because of some holdouts within CPM. i wouldn't know anything about that so you got me there. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 12:13:00 - [267] - Quote Again you are making assumptions about how teams are made in FW and coming to the conclusion that players will be left out. This has already been proven to not be the case when solo players are slotted into 14 man groups, 12 man groups, 10 man groups etc. Also, trying to make out that this is a few people when easily the majority of FW players have been asking for team deploy is silly. Lastly, trying to compare Planetary Conquest with Faction Warfare that has high barriers to entry and is forced on a 24 hour minimum schedule is laughable at best. I guess the question comes down to if you already have 4 out 5 instant deployments geared towards solo and small group play how can you sit there are try to claim the 5th for yourself as well? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 13:52:00 - [268] - Quote Just give a no squad option for every mode aside from PC. I would much rather you see how few solo players actually want into your syncs than force people to get crushed because scrubs can't carry even 4 blueberries. The no squad option would be wonderful, the solo players could be free from scrub squads, and the squads can all just get challenges, no blues holding you back or giving you a hand up. The solo players wouldn't lack for matches. As always everyone, remember that Kain only advocates for his own advancement. He is not looking out for the health of the game, only to get ahead, as he has always done. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 394	Posted - 2015.07.01 14:00:00 - [269] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then The exact opposite. By easing the ability to create full team deploys they will not be limited to a select few and thus the current syncs in the game will end up facing other syncs as well. The more syncs in the system the higher the probability that they will themselves face another sync. Not so sure, if i have to be honest i think that if you find 16 players from the same good corp your synq will leave till it find 16 non good players(you is referred to a platoon leader). I say this because it is already happenig. You can fix the game but not the players The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 248	Posted - 2015.07.01 14:29:00 - [270] - Quote Posting this message of logic again. With the LP not being worth actual ISK - fewer people run proto. The KDR and win is not guaranteed so the super elites will not try to organize a crazy group of the best. There is no incentive. This is being compared to PC but that is correct because PC is full of those dirty ringers who have to wait hours for any PC and people are willing to gut punch their grandma to get in on the payout. The payout is too low and FW matches happen every 5 minutes. So put yourself into the shoes of the greedy, low on isk, proto stomping, fun killing jerks: "Why am I going into a team deploy to get some LP when I barely afford my crazy suits? I am going to go proto stomp a pub where I can get more isk to buy officer gear." Logic! Not what ifs. Team deploy is good. If it was terrible, then CCP would do what it always does, drop the bomb, check the impact, then adjust possibly by removing it 3 months later. Even haters could handle 3 months of team deploy. Hell, you haters should encourage it to fail and fail fast. That would shut everyone up. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.01 14:53:00 - [271] - Quote Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:02:00 - [272] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. So then let the pub pros just fight amongst themselves in PC. Don't cater to that 10% of the players that can't take defeat without giving a consolation to those of us who don't want to just stomp. No squad mode and let the 10% bleed themselves to the bone without any chum to feed on. You would still get CCP or NF roflstomping scrubs, but it would at least keep the people who are hopelessly outclassed from wasting their time only to have match after match ruined by a gang o' bitches who only have balls when they have gal logi scans and four bros with them. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:12:00 - [273] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. So then let the pub pros just fight amongst themselves in PC. Don't cater to that 10% of the players that can't take defeat without giving a consolation to those of us who don't want to just stomp. No squad mode and let the 10% bleed themselves to the bone without any chum to feed on. You would still get CCP or NF roflstomping scrubs, but it would at least keep the people who are hopelessly outclassed from wasting their time only to have match after match ruined by a gang o' bitches who only have balls when they have gal logi scans and four bros with them. Matches start 16vs16 if you have a problem that you are getting hit by teamfire or outplayed by teamwork then blame the 6 redline sniping randoms in the redline and not the opposite team for playing the game how it was ment to be played. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:17:00 - [274] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. So then let the pub pros just fight amongst themselves in PC. Don't cater to that 10% of the players that can't take defeat without giving a consolation to those of us who don't want to just stomp. No squad mode and let the 10% bleed themselves to the bone without any chum to feed on. You would still get CCP or NF roflstomping scrubs, but it would at least keep the people who are hopelessly outclassed from wasting their time only to have match after match ruined by a gang o' bitches who only have balls when they have gal logi scans and four bros with them. Matches start 16vs16 if you have a problem that you are getting hit by teamfire or outplayed by teamwork then blame the 6 redline sniping randoms in the redline and not the opposite team for playing the game how it was ment to be played. Want 16 v 16, there is PC. The game does not revolve around the three or four corps that want to stagger team stacks and farm LP. This isn't being pushed so hard by Kain because you it is the communities interest, but in his and the limp patrol with him. Turning winning in FW into a you must be on the list or you get nothing doesn't help expand the player base. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 802	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:17:00 - [275] - Quote Bright Cloud, it's a trap!! Saying what's on people's minds
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:20:00 - [276] - Quote "How the game was meant to be played" lol. On my squad of six got matched against 2. Back out! My squad got matched with ansquad against random. Look at those cowards run!. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:26:00 - [277] - Quote Sure there may be some syncs like that out there but I know that syncs like State Task Force, Lucent Echelon, and Negative-Feedback get excited when we realize it's a sync on the other side and ecstatic when we see a side with full corp tags that are the same. Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 394	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:31:00 - [278] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: "How the game was meant to be played" lol. On my squad of six got matched against 2. Back out! My squad got matched with ansquad against random. Look at those cowards run!. I m switching to my alts to give you more likes as soon as possible The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.01 15:57:00 - [279] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: "How the game was meant to be played" lol. On my squad of six got matched against 2. Back out! My squad got matched with ansquad against random. Look at those cowards run!. lol nice to see that you are talking about pub matches while we are discussing FW. But go on and keep acting like a fool. Allmost nobody will backout in FW if it is Q-sync vs q-sync. Actually its something that most players look forward to in FW and that is having a decent match and not just redline sniping 24/7. And personally if i see redline snipers on my team while i loose in FW i go over to their position and headhsot them with a bolt pistol to show them that their behaviour is wrong and needs to be punished. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:01:00 - [280] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. So the only squads in the game will be the two squads of 8 that are trying to sync and everyone else is a random? Sure there is no way other squads of 6 or 8 are going to be searching and get priority over the randoms to end up paired with other larger squads. Even Kain said that currently q syncs work just fine so how are they going to magically get broken by the fact that now the numbers all match up and you only have to have 2 squad leaders that need to hit X. What ever happens when that queue sync fails is up to the players involved but we do all know that it will probably be backing out of the battle. Let me ask you something on that tho. We know priority is given to the largest squad and we know that squad sizes are now balanced with match size making it so that only 2 squads are needed. Tell me then how a sync is going to fail and leave a squad of 8 with 8 randoms while another squad of 8 is searching. The only examples of failures we see now are uneven squads getting dumped into battles with other squads or the small squad ending up with a bunch of randoms due to a squad having their spot in the match already. When you break it all down 8 + 8 looks amazing for allowing coordination and queue syncs while also making it far easier for everyone to participate with or without a queue sync channel. If you don't like taking a chance on having a squad that you are not familiar with then hop on over to PC. You can round up all the districts you want and battle all you desire. I even hear rumors that there are going to be some cool rewards for doing that but no need to take my word when there are devblogs and the rest of the forums. I will admit that not being able to see squads in the warbarge adds a very broken dynamic there in knowing who is on your team and being able to squad up once in the warbarge but that is a separate bug which is hopefully being worked on. That is one thing that really does hurt badly in 8 + 8 where it does not in 16. I believe that your chances of only having another 6 - 8 man squad with you in a battle are amazingly high which means that anyone who wants to play FW can squad up and hop in without going through anyone else plain and simple. Only time will tell on that. Oh lets not forget that in typical CCP fashion we are buffing FW and PC through nerfing pubs which I am not at all complaining about. Where do you think all of these small corps who have 8 - 10 members on at a time are going to flock towards? Are they just going to break up into squads of 4 and keep running pubs? I guess they could go ahead and go play PC once per 24 hours where they have to bring in strangers to fill out the team, spend millions of ISK, and expect to get stomped by ringers if they actually manage to win a battle. I for one think they are going to fill up an 8 man squad and their extra people to hop into FW and maybe even recruit a few people to make a full 16 sync because they see that they are getting beat by exactly that. Call me optimistic but that provides one hell of a buff to FW and makes FW precisely the middle ground that it is suppose to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:12:00 - [281] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. There already is a place for people who want a full team deploy. Its called PC. I'm not trying to debate if your group plays like spoiled suburban girls in the ghetto at 7 p.m. on a Friday night in the summer. Its already well established. You either want to drive the solo players out, or manage where they are so that you can farm. No surprise there, you are NF after all, you ladies have never changed, but thankfully you have hoovered all the like minded women to your side. Its a shame you caught some nice folks up in your net, but most of them would be proper useless in a real slug fest. Probably why you guys work so hard to avoid them. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:14:00 - [282] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The Attorney General wrote: "How the game was meant to be played" lol. On my squad of six got matched against 2. Back out! My squad got matched with ansquad against random. Look at those cowards run!. lol nice to see that you are talking about pub matches while we are discussing FW. But go on and keep acting like a fool. Allmost nobody will backout in FW if it is Q-sync vs q-sync. Actually its something that most players look forward to in FW and that is having a decent match and not just redline sniping 24/7. And personally if i see redline snipers on my team while i loose in FW i go over to their position and headhsot them with a bolt pistol to show them that their behaviour is wrong and needs to be punished. You are so slow and special, I hope that your mother straps an I love you note to your mittens. Otherwise you would forget between the front door and the mailbox. "You play my way or else!" Respecting the sandbox right there. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
psyanyde 105	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:25:00 - [283] - Quote As it is now FW is unorganized chaos that has 6-7 people trying to take/guard objectives and the rest of the people doing the following -Guarding the MCC -Getting Slaughtered -Zerging objectives and then leaving it unguarded It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Which in fact could cause better player retention because now you have people to play with in Pubs and FW Team Deploy in FW would also allow smaller/medium corps interested in PC to get their tactics anshit together, which in return could/would breath new life into PC I see more good things that could come from having it than not
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:31:00 - [284] - Quote psyanyde wrote: As it is now FW is unorganized chaos that has 6-7 people trying to take/guard objectives and the rest of the people doing the following -Guarding the MCC -Getting Slaughtered -Zerging objectives and then leaving it unguarded It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Which in fact could cause better player retention because now you have people to play with in Pubs and FW Team Deploy in FW would also allow smaller/medium corps interested in PC to get their tactics anshit together, which in return could/would breath new life into PC I see more good things that could come from having it than not Much of the solo berries in FW come from very screwed up squad numbers which is something that is now getting fixed. I obviously do not have a crystal ball but I think we are going to see a lot less solo play in FW thanks to the nerf on Pubs and the easier ability to know that at minimum half your team is working together. We will see the results pretty quickly after the release. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 907	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:41:00 - [285] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. There already is a place for people who want a full team deploy. Its called PC. I'm not trying to debate if your group plays like spoiled suburban girls in the ghetto at 7 p.m. on a Friday night in the summer. Its already well established. You either want to drive the solo players out, or manage where they are so that you can farm. No surprise there, you are NF after all, you ladies have never changed, but thankfully you have hoovered all the like minded women to your side. Its a shame you caught some nice folks up in your net, but most of them would be proper useless in a real slug fest. Probably why you guys work so hard to avoid them. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:46:00 - [286] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. There already is a place for people who want a full team deploy. Its called PC. I'm not trying to debate if your group plays like spoiled suburban girls in the ghetto at 7 p.m. on a Friday night in the summer. Its already well established. You either want to drive the solo players out, or manage where they are so that you can farm. No surprise there, you are NF after all, you ladies have never changed, but thankfully you have hoovered all the like minded women to your side. Its a shame you caught some nice folks up in your net, but most of them would be proper useless in a real slug fest. Probably why you guys work so hard to avoid them. I have no interest in Molden Heath. It's a blood back water far too close to Minmatar space to use effectively. If I want Low Sec Content I have FW and if I want Null Sec Content I'm welcome in Providence. However at present it seems that what FW in Dust and EVE are too disparate to reconcile. EVE side it is a persistant conflict across entire regions of space where organisation and communication between militia groups are required to attack and flip valuable systems and defend held systems. In Dust it is a series of arbitrary battles on random planets in random systems where progress is barely remembers by the sysetm all of 20 minutes. No one wants to communicate, no one wants to change the status quo, no one wants a real FW system. Just remove FW's influence on EVE and be done with it. Our FW system is a blight against the efforts for capsuleers who are actually doing something worth while. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:54:00 - [287] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. There already is a place for people who want a full team deploy. Its called PC. I'm not trying to debate if your group plays like spoiled suburban girls in the ghetto at 7 p.m. on a Friday night in the summer. Its already well established. You either want to drive the solo players out, or manage where they are so that you can farm. No surprise there, you are NF after all, you ladies have never changed, but thankfully you have hoovered all the like minded women to your side. Its a shame you caught some nice folks up in your net, but most of them would be proper useless in a real slug fest. Probably why you guys work so hard to avoid them. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. So because PC has and always will be a very flawed design FW and the rest of the game in general has to suffer? Sounds like a plan to me! A group of people including myself said over and over that we have no interest in PC thanks to it revolving around 1 match a day at a set time. I really do not understand how that can even qualify as in game content but I am just a button masher. We are suppose to be getting raiding to try to resolve this but apparently the fix everyone wants to go with is to eliminate any middle ground and turn FW into PC so that PC can continue to be farmed by current land holders since no one has any reason to move up to PC. OOPS I revealed part of the master plan. Sorry about that. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:18:00 - [288] - Quote psyanyde wrote: It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Having team deploy wouldn't stop people from going solo into FW matches. It would only insure that once 16 losers where found they would get dumped into a team stomp. They would then leave the match over time, creating a super easy win for the scrubs stacking. Put two groups together, one for Minmatar and one for Amarr. Group one queues for a match. Once they get one, the other group fires up their search. Now you have two syncs going for the price of one, and both teams are almost assured wins. Free LP for everyone they like. Everyone else gets left out in the cold. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:23:00 - [289] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I want competitive gameplay but have no interest in Molden Heath. It's a bloody back water far too close to Minmatar space to use effectively. If I want Low Sec Content I have FW and if I want Null Sec Content I'm welcome in Providence. However at present it seems that what FW in Dust and EVE are too disparate to reconcile. EVE side it is a persistant conflict across entire regions of space where organisation and communication between militia groups are required to attack and flip valuable systems and defend held systems. In Dust it is a series of arbitrary battles on random planets in random systems where progress is barely remembers by the sysetm all of 20 minutes. No one wants to communicate, no one wants to change the status quo, no one wants a real FW system. Just remove FW's influence on EVE and be done with it. Our FW system is a blight against the efforts for capsuleers who are actually doing something worth while. I want a game with balanced vehicle play and a meaningful racial parity. What we both have is Dust. I absolutely agree that Dust and EvE should split the FW portions. There is no need for valiant space farmers to have to orbit one more button because of incompent dusties, or the whims of whatever some scrub lord leading the q sync needs to farm that day. There are many potential solutions to FW, but team deploy isn't one of them. It will only serve to narrow the people taking part, which is most likely the reason behind Kain pushing this so hard, although if he wants to sell access or corner the market on LP amongst his fellows remains to be seen. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:25:00 - [290] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: psyanyde wrote: It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Having team deploy wouldn't stop people from going solo into FW matches. It would only insure that once 16 losers where found they would get dumped into a team stomp. They would then leave the match over time, creating a super easy win for the scrubs stacking. Put two groups together, one for Minmatar and one for Amarr. Group one queues for a match. Once they get one, the other group fires up their search. Now you have two syncs going for the price of one, and both teams are almost assured wins. Free LP for everyone they like. Everyone else gets left out in the cold. I know Jadek had already pointed it out but I really did not think about the farming potential until now. Thanks to the larger squad having priority 2 groups of 16 could constantly give each other empty battles all day. It is possible now but incredibly difficult to the point it would almost never happen. Just think if someone were to send out 1 guy to fill up a 16 man squad of randoms and counter sync with the actual 16 man team. Holy stat padding. Thanks for bringing this up and sorry to Jadek for the fact that I completely ignored it when he originally pointed it out. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 543	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:42:00 - [291] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: The Attorney General wrote: psyanyde wrote: It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Having team deploy wouldn't stop people from going solo into FW matches. It would only insure that once 16 losers where found they would get dumped into a team stomp. They would then leave the match over time, creating a super easy win for the scrubs stacking. Put two groups together, one for Minmatar and one for Amarr. Group one queues for a match. Once they get one, the other group fires up their search. Now you have two syncs going for the price of one, and both teams are almost assured wins. Free LP for everyone they like. Everyone else gets left out in the cold. I know Jadek had already pointed it out but I really did not think about the farming potential until now. Thanks to the larger squad having priority 2 groups of 16 could constantly give each other empty battles all day. It is possible now but incredibly difficult to the point it would almost never happen. Just think if someone were to send out 1 guy to fill up a 16 man squad of randoms and counter sync with the actual 16 man team. Holy stat padding. Thanks for bringing this up and sorry to Jadek for the fact that I completely ignored it when he originally pointed it out. They can do all of this already. It's all good, let's keep lowering the common denominator. Why not remove squads altogether. Let's remove comms too.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:53:00 - [292] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: True Adamance wrote: I want competitive gameplay but have no interest in Molden Heath. It's a bloody back water far too close to Minmatar space to use effectively. If I want Low Sec Content I have FW and if I want Null Sec Content I'm welcome in Providence. However at present it seems that what FW in Dust and EVE are too disparate to reconcile. EVE side it is a persistant conflict across entire regions of space where organisation and communication between militia groups are required to attack and flip valuable systems and defend held systems. In Dust it is a series of arbitrary battles on random planets in random systems where progress is barely remembers by the sysetm all of 20 minutes. No one wants to communicate, no one wants to change the status quo, no one wants a real FW system. Just remove FW's influence on EVE and be done with it. Our FW system is a blight against the efforts for capsuleers who are actually doing something worth while. I want a game with balanced vehicle play and a meaningful racial parity. What we both have is Dust. I absolutely agree that Dust and EvE should split the FW portions. There is no need for valiant space farmers to have to orbit one more button because of incompent dusties, or the whims of whatever some scrub lord leading the q sync needs to farm that day. There are many potential solutions to FW, but team deploy isn't one of them. It will only serve to narrow the people taking part, which is most likely the reason behind Kain pushing this so hard, although if he wants to sell access or corner the market on LP amongst his fellows remains to be seen. Yet there needs to be some means to facilitate large scale player run operations. Especially if agency and locality ever actually come to matter. To be frank if PIE ever said ' we need X system captured in the next few days' I sure as **** would want to monopolise all contacts in the system with as many organised players as possible simply because random individuals cannot be trusted to perform well enough to support our efforts. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
The Attorney General 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:05:00 - [293] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Yet there needs to be some means to facilitate large scale player run operations. Especially if agency and locality ever actually come to matter. To be frank if PIE ever said ' we need X system captured in the next few days' I sure as **** would want to monopolise all contacts in the system with as many organised players as possible simply because random individuals cannot be trusted to perform well enough to support our efforts. Except that in EvE, you can't monopolize the FW content. There is nothing stopping someone from making an endless string of awoxing alts, and you certainly can't keep people out of plexes without suffering the standing hit. You certainly can't keep a carebear from farming LP with L4s. How to fix FW is a much longer topic than what this thread wants to deal with, and the topic at hand is bad for FW long term, in my opinion. I fully understand that you want to commit for your militia, but supporting this type of change would produce a constantly farmed, stale FW with little to no dynamics involved between who is farming harder. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:40:00 - [294] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. Is this in support of larger squads in Pubs, or did I misread your post? Because if you think that the biggest problem in Pubs has been that casual players have had it too good with to small a squad size, I think you are mistaken. It is coordinated squads are what have screwed over Pubs, not casual players. Its not casual or solo players who are able to take on newer players and ruin the fun. Mr Musturd just posted the past day or two how he likes to play solo precisely because of how boring it is to play squads in Pubs, and in my opinion that is the crux of the issue. PC and FW need to be the focal points for team play, and there needs to be entry level/casual games for new players, and players who still may spend money on the game, but not play outside of Pubs often. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 544	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:43:00 - [295] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: SirManBoy wrote: PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. Is this in support of larger squads in Pubs, or did I misread your post? Because if you think that the biggest problem in Pubs has been that casual players have had it too good with to small a squad size, I think you are mistaken. It is coordinated squads are what have screwed over Pubs, not casual players. Its not casual or solo players who are able to take on newer players and ruin the fun. Mr Musturd just posted the past day or two how he likes to play solo precisely because of how boring it is to play squads in Pubs, and in my opinion that is the crux of the issue. PC and FW need to be the focal points for team play, and there needs to be entry level/casual games for new players, and players who still may spend money on the game, but not play outside of Pubs often. He's saying that the squads size going to 4 in pubs will make MM better and a more casual experience.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:45:00 - [296] - Quote thor424 wrote: One Eyed King wrote: SirManBoy wrote: PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. Is this in support of larger squads in Pubs, or did I misread your post? Because if you think that the biggest problem in Pubs has been that casual players have had it too good with to small a squad size, I think you are mistaken. It is coordinated squads are what have screwed over Pubs, not casual players. Its not casual or solo players who are able to take on newer players and ruin the fun. Mr Musturd just posted the past day or two how he likes to play solo precisely because of how boring it is to play squads in Pubs, and in my opinion that is the crux of the issue. PC and FW need to be the focal points for team play, and there needs to be entry level/casual games for new players, and players who still may spend money on the game, but not play outside of Pubs often. He's saying that the squads size going to 4 in pubs will make MM better and a more casual experience. Thank you, I wasn't entirely sure where he was going. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:48:00 - [297] - Quote They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 7	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:49:00 - [298] - Quote True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: True Adamance wrote: I want competitive gameplay but have no interest in Molden Heath. It's a bloody back water far too close to Minmatar space to use effectively. If I want Low Sec Content I have FW and if I want Null Sec Content I'm welcome in Providence. However at present it seems that what FW in Dust and EVE are too disparate to reconcile. EVE side it is a persistant conflict across entire regions of space where organisation and communication between militia groups are required to attack and flip valuable systems and defend held systems. In Dust it is a series of arbitrary battles on random planets in random systems where progress is barely remembers by the sysetm all of 20 minutes. No one wants to communicate, no one wants to change the status quo, no one wants a real FW system. Just remove FW's influence on EVE and be done with it. Our FW system is a blight against the efforts for capsuleers who are actually doing something worth while. I want a game with balanced vehicle play and a meaningful racial parity. What we both have is Dust. I absolutely agree that Dust and EvE should split the FW portions. There is no need for valiant space farmers to have to orbit one more button because of incompent dusties, or the whims of whatever some scrub lord leading the q sync needs to farm that day. There are many potential solutions to FW, but team deploy isn't one of them. It will only serve to narrow the people taking part, which is most likely the reason behind Kain pushing this so hard, although if he wants to sell access or corner the market on LP amongst his fellows remains to be seen. Yet there needs to be some means to facilitate large scale player run operations. Especially if agency and locality ever actually come to matter. To be frank if PIE ever said ' we need X system captured in the next few days' I sure as **** would want to monopolise all contacts in the system with as many organised players as possible simply because random individuals cannot be trusted to perform well enough to support our efforts. I would say look at team deploy if agency and locality ever actually come to matter. I'd rather not have team deploy in FW if it is just to turn it into Corp Battles. FW should be it's own entity and stand upon it's own systemGÇª Where we can chose where and when to fight, have stakes that matter, and have meaningful battles, then Team Deploy would be an addition that compliments the system. MOAR Ladders SpadeGÇª Remember your Warbarge
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:50:00 - [299] - Quote So that this does not spill into other threads. Thor we all want team deploy but what good is it when it screws over peoples ability to play the game and opens a massive exploit in allowing FW to be farmed? How much damage are we willing to do for one feature? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 00:15:00 - [300] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? In this exact scenario any corporation with 17 people would be able to farm roughly 75 - 100 million ISK per hour and even more if they just use 32 people and lock in both sides making it absolutely risk free unlimited farming. Let's also not forget that while this farming is going on every member can complete most of their missions to earn command points to help in farming PC districts without including anyone else in their corporation. Should we really be making it as easy as possible to continue farming the game with very little effort involved? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 545	Posted - 2015.07.02 00:16:00 - [301] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? I can guarantee you with a 100% certainty that the NF dudes that are pushing for this would sync against each other to alternate wins. I guess it could happen, but this could already happen. It happened in PC apparently, but it was nowhere near as rampant as you and others elude to. I honestly can't picture 32 people getting together for something so cheesy, how boring would that be? The PC farming was a few people, I never heard of full teams farming.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 00:41:00 - [302] - Quote thor424 wrote: It happened in PC apparently, but it was nowhere near as rampant as you and others elude to. Bro, you don't. even. know. It was more rampant than most people understand because of the length of time it went on for. thor424 wrote: I honestly can't picture 32 people getting together for something so cheesy, how boring would that be? The PC farming was a few people, I never heard of full teams farming. You underestimate gamers in general, and the small cadre of dust diehards who just can't quit. You wouldn't even have to farm in the sense of trying to milk WP, as long as you weren't facing people determined to mess up your syncs, you would get stacked against randoms, which is going to be a rollover for a 16 man deployment. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.02 00:59:00 - [303] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: True Adamance wrote: Yet there needs to be some means to facilitate large scale player run operations. Especially if agency and locality ever actually come to matter. To be frank if PIE ever said ' we need X system captured in the next few days' I sure as **** would want to monopolise all contacts in the system with as many organised players as possible simply because random individuals cannot be trusted to perform well enough to support our efforts. Except that in EvE, you can't monopolize the FW content. There is nothing stopping someone from making an endless string of awoxing alts, and you certainly can't keep people out of plexes without suffering the standing hit. You certainly can't keep a carebear from farming LP with L4s. How to fix FW is a much longer topic than what this thread wants to deal with, and the topic at hand is bad for FW long term, in my opinion. I fully understand that you want to commit for your militia, but supporting this type of change would produce a constantly farmed, stale FW with little to no dynamics involved between who is farming harder. No you can't and in EVE the model of FW certainly means that the presence of allies in system is beneficial to your cause. In Dust the presence of those outside of your immediate squad are a liability and a factor that cannot be relied upon to achieve. As for the talk of farming....you talk as though this is not currently facilitated by the method we currently have. FW regional control values, as inaccurate as they are, are more or less static, they never change, even attempting to change them requires more luck than effort. Not to mention popular factions have been more or less farming FW for months now. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 01:08:00 - [304] - Quote thor424 wrote: I honestly can't picture 32 people getting together for something so cheesy, how boring would that be? The PC farming was a few people, I never heard of full teams farming. Full teams worked together many times to boost their SP payouts. I can not find the video at the moment but there was a video circulated a while back where WTF was able to farm well over 20k WP per player in PC battles. This is the same activity that would EASILY take place behind closed doors in 32 man FW syncs. Want 32 people in your corp to cap out in one day with free one day boosters stacked? Sure counter sync into FW which would be unbelievably easy with 16 man squads. Since it was in one match 2100 AUR for a x4 boost on top of that would be amazing. Fortunately there is a system in place now that slows this down but it still works. Assuming the cap is at 7500 WP: 7500 x 2.5 from boosters = 18,750 SP in one match. 7500 x 4 from a single instant boost = 30,000 SP on top of that. Once you add in time in battle SP you are over 50K SP from one risk free match which can easily be repeated as many times as you want per day. That means you can cap out in roughly 20 matches all triple stacked boosters and x4 instant boosts making millions of SP and getting a good amount of nearly free proto gear all at once. Thanks to no search times when countering with 32 people you can figure an average of 20 minutes per battle meaning with only 7 hours in one day you are able to net nearly a billion ISK for the corporation and nearly 10 million SP per player. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 545	Posted - 2015.07.02 02:10:00 - [305] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: I honestly can't picture 32 people getting together for something so cheesy, how boring would that be? The PC farming was a few people, I never heard of full teams farming. Full teams worked together many times to boost their SP payouts. I can not find the video at the moment but there was a video circulated a while back where WTF was able to farm well over 20k WP per player in PC battles. This is the same activity that would EASILY take place behind closed doors in 32 man FW syncs. Want 32 people in your corp to cap out in one day with free one day boosters stacked? Sure counter sync into FW which would be unbelievably easy with 16 man squads. Since it was in one match 2100 AUR for a x4 boost on top of that would be amazing. Fortunately there is a system in place now that slows this down but it still works. Assuming the cap is at 7500 WP: 7500 x 2.5 from boosters = 18,750 SP in one match. 7500 x 4 from a single instant boost = 30,000 SP on top of that. Once you add in time in battle SP you are over 50K SP from one risk free match which can easily be repeated as many times as you want per day. That means you can cap out in roughly 20 matches all triple stacked boosters and x4 instant boosts making millions of SP and getting a good amount of nearly free proto gear all at once. Thanks to no search times when countering with 32 people you can figure an average of 20 minutes per battle meaning with only 7 hours in one day you are able to net nearly a billion ISK for the corporation and nearly 10 million SP per player. I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 02:19:00 - [306] - Quote thor424 wrote: I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed. I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:13:00 - [307] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed. I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible. Deezy again you fail to realize that this can already be done and the more syncs that are floating around the more difficult trying to control both sides becomes. I'm sorry but "somewhere down the road" for persistent team deploy isn't acceptable. It also doesn't address that Team Deploy is something specifically desired for Faction Warfare. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:21:00 - [308] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed. I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible. Deezy again you fail to realize that this can already be done and the more syncs that are floating around the more difficult trying to control both sides becomes. I'm sorry but "somewhere down the road" for persistent team deploy isn't acceptable. It also doesn't address that Team Deploy is something specifically desired for Faction Warfare. So your argument is that since there is already an exploit we should just make it 10x easier? That's good stuff. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:41:00 - [309] - Quote No, I said it's already possible. Yet it doesn't occur and would be made harder by the presence of more syncs if folks were to try it. Also CCP already put anit-boosting measures in place becuase of what happened in PC. Your argument is about as sound as bad DRM policies. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:48:00 - [310] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy again you fail to realize that this can already be done and the more syncs that are floating around the more difficult trying to control both sides becomes. So you can already do it, it just takes effort. So CCP should spend some of their minimal dev resources on accomadating people who want a stomp but don't want to work for it? Kain Spero wrote: I'm sorry but "somewhere down the road" for persistent team deploy isn't acceptable. It also doesn't address that Team Deploy is something specifically desired for Faction Warfare. Somewhere down the road is the motto for Dust, you suddenly deciding that it isn't acceptable is laughable. You rode the CCP D for a year, don't pretend that you don't know how it works. Bottom line: You want an easy ride for your farming. Stop being a scrub. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:57:00 - [311] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: No, I said it's already possible. Yet it doesn't occur and would be made harder by he presence of more syncs if folks were to try it. Also CCP already put anit-boosting measures in place becuase of what happened in PC. Your argument is about as sound as bad DRM policies. First of all neither of us have any idea if it is actually possible. Remember that each game mode has different ways of putting us in matches. Pubs have the matchmaker while FW has the team builder and PC just allows 16 people to enter battle. Just because a 16 man squad was created does not mean that team builder has the ability to accept them. We could all be wasting our time on this convo because of the real reason for it not there is because CCP does not feel it best to spend the time modifying team builder to handle the logic which would involve a 16 man squad. You of all people should understand this and not be trying to say what CCP can or cant do. So lets review: You claim organization is being screwed over even tho it is getting buffed. You have already said you don't care if it screws over the player base. You believe that even tho it makes a known exploit even easier that it still needs to be in there right now. CCP already made the decision on this based on factors that neither of us know yet according to you it is already there. Suddenly "down the road" is unacceptable when the entire life of this game has been "down the road" Did I pretty much sum it up or would you like to add something? Good to know that I am the one with an argument "as souns as bad DRM politics". Had you actually made one valid statement in the entire course of this 15 something pages I may be offended by that. Have you noticed how you and a small group of people most likely just following you are the only ones still arguing for this? If you are speaking for so much of the community where is everyone else? I will give you a hint. They are all happy with the buff and could care less about this conversation. Trying to push an idea that CCP has already sided against, no one else is willing to argue for, and has been proven to be full of holes could be attempting to promote some agenda. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 06:45:00 - [312] - Quote Deezy, again the issue is that adding team deploy doesn't create anything that can't be done already. It gives the power of team deploy to all players rather than a select few. It's about improving the team play options at the same time the solo and small group options are improved (4 man fire teams in pubs). Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 06:59:00 - [313] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again the issue is that adding team deploy doesn't create anything that can't be done already. It gives the power of team deploy to all players rather than a select few. Address any exploiting that might occur directly rather than trying to punish everyone. It's about improving the team play options at the same time the solo and small group options are improved (4 man fire teams in pubs). Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. So far in this thread among other things you have said you dont care about screwing over a large portion of the player base and now that you dont care if it makes it 10x easier for people to exploit the living hell out of the game. You also claim to speak for the community when there is almost nobody left in this thread arguing along with you. You have yet to state one actual benefit of 16 man deploy besides that people ask for it. Just stop talking nobody cares about you wanting farmville now that the ISK faucet in PC has been turned off. Do you really think Ratatti and team have worked on PC for the last several months just to have your pointless ranting allow them to make a horribly broken change to the game which opens up another ISK faucet and makes no one give a damn about all that work they have done? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:05:00 - [314] - Quote I gave more than a few reasons. Your objections have been shot down numerous times and now you are just grasping at straws. Kain Spero wrote: I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches. Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks. That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here. Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months. Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!! Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!! Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:15:00 - [315] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I gave more than a few reasons. Your objections have been shot down numerous times and now you are just grasping at straws. Kain Spero wrote: I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches. Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks. That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here. Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months. Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!! Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!! Not a single thing that 8 man squads does not give with far less drawbacks. Not one scenario has been shot down every one of them have been sidestepped aside from where even you admit that it makes FW a giant exploit. I find it funny that the person who was so hell bent on getting CCP to fix an exploit that he used it to gain billions of ISK sits here in front of us and says that having exploits is fine as long as you make them easier and do it because a few people want it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:25:00 - [316] - Quote Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with. And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed? I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 6	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:39:00 - [317] - Quote In terms of preventing exploits and 'negative' player behaviors it's better to have all 16 players managed rather than leaving deployment open to chance with locking at 8 person squads. Team Deploy in FW could make it easier to avoid awoxing/suicide squads. If you unabashedly want to end a match fast I also have a great deal of experience with organizing and encouraging awox/suicide squads. A dead weight 8 player squad jumping in front of your bullets or falling to their deaths repeatedly is arguably more damaging for player moral than simply having a 16 player organized platoon dedicated to 'serious' play. CCP would obviously take measures if this got out of control, but in the mean time there's nothing stopping you from claiming that you are a simple awoxer engaging in the sandbox of New Eden. I will be happy to run 8 man suicide squads in FW when Warlords 1.2 deploys. Goal, die a lot or get people to accidentally kill you in order to kick them from FW. Here's Lee Corwood demonstrating one technique to die quickly. https://youtu.be/RlmZB1r5FQM 16 v 16 Teams that do decide to exploit with wp/kill/lp boosting can be addressed easily enough. I talk about these maters and solutions in greater depth on this topic. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=206637&find=unread Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:47:00 - [318] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? lol you do know that one team would need to keep loosing on purpose to achieve this? That would be boring as hell and most people rather want to shot stuff and dont want to participate in ingame farming activitys. The reason why they are fighting so hard for it is that the people who run the chats get a headache with the current system. I cant say how many times the phrase " if we had team deploy this wouldnt happend" has beeing sayd as soon a sync failed. You are nopw desperately searching for lame excuses to stop team deploy from happening. I could aswell say that its possible to farm crap tons of WP to boost your SP gain by having a friend on the opposition. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 706	Posted - 2015.07.02 08:53:00 - [319] - Quote Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:01:00 - [320] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with. And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed? I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home. SP caps is why my numbers were based on 7500 per match as oppose to the 20k that was easily possible before. I did not argue that the exploit is impossible right now I argued that 16 man deploy makes it almost effortless. I am not referring to ISK through BPO destruction I am referring to ISK through an unlimited flow of whatever FW items first become tradeable. My actual numbers in the examples were based on APEX suits and selling them at 40 million ISK for a 30 million profit per suit. Obviously those numbers are impossible to say what they will be but that is far lower than anyone has discussed for what APEX suits will be worth. Are you saying that fighting to not watch an entire game mode driven into the groundby someone who obviously has an inability to look at facts that affect anyone besides his self is paranoia now? I like how you failed to address the fact that there is no proof the current system can even handle a 16 man team for sure and your entire argument there is based on pure assumption. As I pointed out the systems in each game mode are different so just because they made it work in PC does not mean team builder can even handle it like you claim. I would also like to point your attention here You will notice in the section quoted below that FW is specifically meant to be a middle ground that is open to anyone. Quote: Unlike Planetary Conquest, which requires involvement with a player corporation and favors an extremely high level of gameplay, Factional Contracts are an area of the game that anyone can participate in. Factional Contracts and their link with Factional Warfare in EVE also serve as one of our best links between the two games. That being said, currently Factional Contracts were not hugely different to public contracts. Our goal with this iteration of Factional Contracts was to make them unique and more challenging while maintaining their accessibility to all players. It is our belief that, at least for now, players should want to play both Public Contracts and Factional Contracts; not one or the other. You have stated very clearly that you do not care about allowing anyone else in and do not care if 16 man deploy hurts players ability to get in to FW. Why exactly would CCP throw out this entire thinking and disparage all of the work that has been done over the past several months on PC? Because you and a few people that think the nerf which they are already giving us to stronger support the above statement say so does not quite count. Go find some other way to farm the game. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:04:00 - [321] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested Kain says FW needs 16 man deploy because it is suppose to be hard mode and a large part of the community wants it. I say 16 man deploy breaks wait times, blocks average players from joining, and seriously increases the ability to exploit the game mode similar to how PC use to be exploited. Sorry if I misstated Kain's opinion he is free to add his own "jist" if he likes. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:08:00 - [322] - Quote Juno you wouldn't be wrong that team deploy would get more people interested in the game mode. Q-syncs would be available to all rather than the select few that run them now in corp or player-made channels. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 706	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:31:00 - [323] - Quote My experience of the average player is they don't join syncs because they don't want the hassle, the amount of times people have dropped because either they don't know how a sync works or they get bored waiting and drop off ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.02 10:26:00 - [324] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested Kain says FW needs 16 man deploy because it is suppose to be hard mode and a large part of the community wants it. I say 16 man deploy breaks wait times, blocks average players from joining, and seriously increases the ability to exploit the game mode similar to how PC use to be exploited. Sorry if I misstated Kain's opinion he is free to add his own "jist" if he likes. This is hillarious you do know that there can be a infinite amount of matches and not just one at a time for 1 faction? As soon the 16 man sync gets deployed the game waits till the next match gets filled up in the que and with that creates another match in FW. The possibility that you run into another 16 man team are aswell higher cause the game prefers large squads over small/solo players and with that when both sides que at a similar time its allmost granted that they face each other. And about your argument about "we dont know if the system can handle team deploy" i could aswell claim the opposite where you dont know that it wouldnt work. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 10:37:00 - [325] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested Kain says FW needs 16 man deploy because it is suppose to be hard mode and a large part of the community wants it. I say 16 man deploy breaks wait times, blocks average players from joining, and seriously increases the ability to exploit the game mode similar to how PC use to be exploited. Sorry if I misstated Kain's opinion he is free to add his own "jist" if he likes. This is hillarious you do know that there can be a infinite amount of matches and not just one at a time for 1 faction? As soon the 16 man sync gets deployed the game waits till the next match gets filled up in the que and with that creates another match in FW. The possibility that you run into another 16 man team are aswell higher cause the game prefers large squads over small/solo players and with that when both sides que at a similar time its allmost granted that they face each other. And about your argument about "we dont know if the system can handle team deploy" i could aswell claim the opposite where you dont know that it wouldnt work. Infinite amount of matches but Dust is far from an infinite numbers of players and the losing side of FW always ends up low on players because people give up and join the winning side or go back to pubs. No I am not claiming that I know it will not work but I have pointed out possible flaws in function as well as the fact that CCP did not put this in the update so why would one believe that they did the update to the team builder if they did not want this in there. 8 man squads reduce the need for syncs by making it much more likely that you are matched with another 8 man squad by way of squad prioritization which already exists. This opens up the game mode to more people while also making it so that solos are going to be met with serious resistance that will either send them running to a squad or back to pubs. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Tyrunis Bloodstone Anubis Prime Syndicate 78	Posted - 2015.07.02 10:42:00 - [326] - Quote Wow, I would just ignore that deezy guy. He's just feeding off the back and forth negative side of things. How many times can someone make the same point, over and over and over again?
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:14:00 - [327] - Quote Tyrunis Bloodstone wrote: Wow, I would just ignore that deezy guy. He's just feeding off the back and forth negative side of things. How many times can someone make the same point, over and over and over again? Well, if it keeps the thread on the first page I can't complain that much now can I? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:14:00 - [328] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. To the first line, a former CPM trying to act haughty is completely absurd. To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:24:00 - [329] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: This is hillarious you do know that there can be a infinite amount of matches and not just one at a time for 1 faction? As soon the 16 man sync gets deployed the game waits till the next match gets filled up in the que and with that creates another match in FW. The possibility that you run into another 16 man team are aswell higher cause the game prefers large squads over small/solo players and with that when both sides que at a similar time its allmost granted that they face each other. . Unless they don't want to, in which case it is trivial to avoid each other. And then its just stomp like its pubs, all night long. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:25:00 - [330] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. To the first line, a former CPM trying to act haughty is completely absurd. To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? All he does is responds to every point with a reworded version of points that have been proven are all covered by 8+8. CCP has already stated what they want FW to be so I highly doubt they are going to make FW an easy alternative to PC which they have been working so hard on. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:25:00 - [331] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:28:00 - [332] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The Attorney General wrote: To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Its funny how you proved me right immediately after I said. Again Kain, nothing you are saying is not a benefit of 8 + 8 that is a benefit of 16. It is a bit weird how you talk about how easy Q syncing is and then say we need 16 because it makes it easier to get competitive battles. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 - [333] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with. And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed? I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home. This is needless drama queen BS, and also a strawman argument. People don't have to exploit anything when they can social engineer people out of FW, which 16 man deploys will make possible. Managing your opponents is a much easier way to generate auto wins while not being a total scrub and AFK'ing in the MCC(props to whoever has the link for that video of Kain doing to the dip from back before Uprising). Remember when everyone in Imps was doing the MCC salsa? I do, so don't you dare to pretend that you give a **** about the game. Keep it on point Kain, resorting to fallacies weakens your postion. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 - [334] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: 1. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. 2. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. 3. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. 1. Idea! On-the-fly raids. Have 16 guys? Open the starmap, find a district with an open raid window. Raid it. 2. "Paradise" seems a strong word for something we haven't seen yet. In fact, I've been assured by many a pubstomper in many a thread that if I run solo, I'll get stomped by a 4-man stompsquad as readily as I would a 6-man squad. 3. How is it that a change to pub squad size is a concession? Is it not more a response to extremely low match quality? Is extremely low match quality not a problem which is by-and-large to blame on stompsquads? I don't understand how fixing a problem is a concession, and I fail to see why CCP should feel the need to negotiate when it comes to fixing problems. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 - [335] - Quote Deezy, that is exactly my point though. I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth. 8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare. Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:40:00 - [336] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? I'm on the fence here. If your side of the argument has points to make, please spare us the platitudes and browbeating and deliver those points. The other side of the argument seems to think that you're looking for easier farm mechanics. If that isn't true, explain why it isn't true. If you truly want better fights, why not open up raids so PC-level play can be available around the clock? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:45:00 - [337] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, that is exactly my point though. I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth. 8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare. Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment. As I have said over and over. 8 + 8 makes it far more likely you will have a good squad with you thus eliminating the need for syncs while it is also still there for corps or channels who do want to sync. The little guy gets the ability to participate without ever having to take part in more than a 8 man squad if he does not feel like it. How on earth is making it difficult to even get a match unless you are in a 16 man squad helping anyone but large corps and channels that are already full of FW players. Which is better for the little guy? Hop in a squad that is barely bigger than a squad now and get put in with another 8 man squad which happens thanks to squad priority. Even a person in a solo corp can fill up a 8 man squad in no time. or Wait for a 16 man squad to show up. Hope for it to fill in in some bearable amount of time. Search for battle and go up against a corp squad that is actually coordinated and get stomped. Then have the squad leader get mad at everyone that did not perform to his standards and kick them so the whole process can start over. Sure you will say they can just start a squad of their own but what happens when there are 20 16 man squads sitting in squad finder so none of them can even fill up so they are just stuck waiting forever. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:45:00 - [338] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. What is this lack of experience you speak of? I don't play FW in your syncs because they are about as fun as watching flies mate. Well, that and you personally are such a raging shitler that I would rather bunch myself in the face with a rusty gauntlet than listen to you and your cadre of nut guzzlers try hard. The only good thing getting in your q syncs can produce is the subtle hilarity at listening to your scrub team complain about getting core naded, or calling people scrubs for using the various FOTMs. Playing against those stacks is more fun for me. I like taking tanks out of your pilots until they stop showing up in the syncs. Only takes a match or two. No, I don't go looking for the easiest possible matches all the time. That is why I don't join into your stupid team syncs. Your horrible voice and attitude, your folks complete inability to appreciate the irony of them complaining about scrub tactics, and the fact that your people fold and wilt if they take a little bit of a loss is why your q syncs are not worth my time or presence. Kain Spero wrote: If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. And this is why you are a piece of crap. The Attorney General wrote: To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. Stop rehashing your singular defense that team syncs can already be done. You still haven't answered this question: Why should the limited Dev resources be expended on making your LP farming easier? If you were this much of a simpleton when you were on the CPM, no wonder the game went the way it did. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:48:00 - [339] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:53:00 - [340] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field. Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better. So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:56:00 - [341] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field. Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better. So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? Going out of your way to shutdown exploits includes farming billions of ISK while you are a CPM and can directly talk to CCP? I am not saying I know they would have listened or whatever but it seems like the profitability in shutting down exploits is incredibly high. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Tyrunis Bloodstone Anubis Prime Syndicate 82	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:58:00 - [342] - Quote Guys, let's keep the talks centered around TD instead of monopolies that either one of us could have gained if our social skills, vision, planning and execution were exceptional. Its about what's best for the growth of FW. Not the ruthless nature of New Eden
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:05:00 - [343] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? 1. If PC-level players want better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:07:00 - [344] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better. So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? Holy Christ on a cracker, are you huffing glue? You think people who have been here since closed beta forget what you have gotten up to Kain? Don't pretend that you are not the same scumbag who played touch your toes in the MCC for the month leading up to uprising. Don't pretend that you didn't have most of Imps doing the same at that time because you guys were bored waiting for the release date but were not willing to sacrifice your SP edge before PC started. We won't even get into the whole blue donut BS, and since you were technically in charge of NS while they locked for months, that could be on you as well. No, you have been either associated with, lead, or condoned all the large scale exploits that you could, and no amount of you saying otherwise will change that. Your actions, remembered by people who watched it all go down cannot be countered by your dreamy assertions that you are fighting the good fight. Self delusion is dangerous. Be wary. I didn't personally attack you, I just listed why I don't join your q syncs. I don't play with whiny chicks who can't take a loss without freaking out. That fits most of the people you play with, and it fits you to a T. Honestly, Ydubbs kids cry less than you do. I just wish that Dubbs would tell you to shut up when you need it. You can't whitewash you being an exploiting scrub, anyone who was around remembers. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:10:00 - [345] - Quote Tyrunis Bloodstone wrote: Guys, let's keep the talks centered around TD instead of monopolies that either one of us could have gained if our social skills, vision, planning and execution were exceptional. Its about what's best for the growth of FW. Not the ruthless nature of New Eden Yeah, but Kain just wants to keep bringing it back to how he can already q sync, so the discussion gets stuck pretty easily. If Kain want to defend his position he can try, but he has no argument other than "I want my farming to be simpler! NOAW! Unacceptable for me to not get what I want!" Which, although hilarious to read in a mock of Kains losing a PC voice, isn't a great position from which a strong debate will occur. Until Kain starts actually responding to points, this discussion is DOA. But I'll keep providing some reality to Kains BS because he clearly needs to stop drinking his own kool aid. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:25:00 - [346] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: ... do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:27:00 - [347] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? Yet again questions get ignored because they do not match the agenda. 1. Exactly 2. This one will try to be answered with the SP cap which is still somewhere in the area of 7500 WP and there is no answer to the LP. 3. The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. 4. Exactly what I have been trying to say. Things get specifically messed up when you have any squad from 9 to 15 players. 5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:31:00 - [348] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate? 6. Why should limited developer resources be spent on this alteration of other improvements to the game? Just added my own question to the list for Kain to answer. Not that he will without deflecting, throwing out a strawman or maybe even a red herring. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:32:00 - [349] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? 5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. I honestly don't know the answer. Even when the Devs are careful, patches/updates and even simple balance tweaks don't always return the desired effect. Why rush a huge change through when we have the option to iterate? Why not move forward with 8-man as planned, work out all the kinks and then discuss (from an informed position) the ups and downs to 16-man? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:38:00 - [350] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? 5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. I honestly don't know the answer. Even when the Devs are careful, patches/updates and even simple balance tweaks don't always return the desired effect. Why rush a huge change through when we have the option to iterate? Why not move forward with 8-man as planned, work out all the kinks and then discuss (from an informed position) the ups and downs to 16-man? I am on the side of 8 + 8 not only as a test but as a fact that this should not even be getting discussed right now because I think it will work out wonderfully for FW and for the community as a whole. If 8 + 8 proves to not work anywhere near the way I am thinking then I was wrong and so be it. The "leaving it alone cause we all know this one" was really just a shot at Kain because his entire argument has been that we should have it right now because it is "already in there" and the community wants it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:39:00 - [351] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? First off thanks, Adipem. I'll do my best to answer from my perspective. 1. It has more to do with players outside of PC though. You have very dedicated faction warfare players that are just as dedicated as planetary conquest players. I think that raids are going to be essential long-term for PC, but they aren't even off the backlog at this point. Really though i think FW deserves as much of a chance to be an end-game as PC. 2. For starters boredom and secondly there are already mechanics in place that clamp down on boosting behavior (No SP gain after X WP). Plus a match can only end so quickly and the LP payouts are a static number. Plus there is nothing you can do with 16 man team deploy that you wouldn't be able to do with 8 man squads so in an attempt to stop a perceived threat raised by 32 players you don't actually put in any barrier and negatively impact those that would engage the game mode in a legitimate fashion. In effect it comes out like bad DRM having a negative impact on legitimate consumers while doing nothing to stop those potentially engaging in negative activity. CCP has been taking a much tougher stance on boosting and can monitor match behavior. I'm sure this kind of behavior could be pretty easy to detect on CCP's end and those doing it dealt with accordingly. 3. Newbro opens up squad finder and sees a platoon sitting at 14/16 and joins. Alternatively a newbro creates his own platoon and sets it to broadcast. 4. Leither would explain this better than I. It has to do with queueing theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory ). It's the same reason that things like 3 man squads get slotted into FW battles currently. You have a rolling population made up of a variety of numbers and the team builder combines those like lego pieces pretty effectively since it doesn't have to do heavy lifting like calculating MU rating that we see in public matches. 5. One of this biggest mistakes I made on CPM was trusting that a player market would soon follow the initial deployment of LP payouts instead of ISK in FW. This has been partially corrected with the reintroduction of ISK to FW. We still don't have trading of FW items well over a year after LP was implemented (APEX suit trading coming soon TM?). My biggest problem with 8 + 8 is that it doesn't open up the accessibility of team deploy to those outside corps and those in custom player channels. In order to execute a team deploy you would still be force to coms up in a channel an do a countdown and deployment just like we have today. All 8 + 8 does is reduce the hassle to current players that sync rather than opening up team deploy to those that have no idea how the mechanic works. This is situation where I would rather CCP get the numbers on full team deploy first and then walk it back if needed. I'm fairly confident that it would increase the viability of the game mode rather than hinder it. There is of-course no way to be 100% sure until it's actually implemented. Since you already have q-sycs running for hours on end I don't see this vast danger in implementation that some in this thread would have you think would be the case. We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI. Since we already have this syncing CCP has all the data in world IMO regarding syncs run out of corp chats and player channels. 8 + 8 would just be more of the same. It's time to see what the effect is when you allow a full team to be dynamically created without these hindrances in the squad finder. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
SirManBoy Molon Labe. RUST415 910	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:49:00 - [352] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: SirManBoy wrote: 1. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. 2. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. 3. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. 1. Idea! On-the-fly raids. Have 16 guys? Open the starmap, find a district with an open raid window. Raid it. 2. "Paradise" seems a strong word for something we haven't seen yet. In fact, I've been assured by many a pubstomper in many a thread that if I run solo, I'll get stomped by a 4-man stompsquad as readily as I would a 6-man stompsquad. I hope they're wrong, because that doesn't sound like much an improvement. Much less, paradise. 3. How is it that a change to pub squad size is a concession? Is it not more a response to extremely low match quality? Is extremely low match quality not a problem which is by-and-large to blame on stompsquads? I don't understand how fixing a problem is a concession, and I fail to see why CCP should feel the need to negotiate when it comes to fixing problems. 1. Sounds great! How long will we have to wait for that? According to my watch, I've waited about 2.5 years for persistent team deployments already. Also, I'm not confident that any raiding system is going to offer truly instant and unlimited opportunities for team deployments. That's what proponents of team deploy in FW are after. 2. The matchmaking system should be far better at doing its job once it starts working with fireteam-sized building blocks. Not only are these groups going to be weaker than their 6-man predecessors, but they should also find themselves competing with and against more groupings of equal size. Going solo will always have its risks, but teams should be built more evenly than ever before because of this change. 3. Losing 6-man squads has both benefits and costs. Dropping them should make public matches far more competitive, but there's no denying the fact that we are losing a great tool for in match social interaction across a variety of match types. They are an unfortunate but necessary casualty for the greater good of the community. That said, full team deploy in FW would at least give something substantial back to the portion of the community that values highly coordinated play and fun social experiences. However, jumping up to 8-man squads in a world of never ending skirm matches falls a bit short. It doesn't elevate the experience enough to make up for the fact that it's a single match type. 16-man deployments, however, would be a game-changer. You can build an entirely different culture and experience in an otherwise very limited game mode with a tool like that.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:04:00 - [353] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: This is situation where I would rather CCP get the numbers on full team deploy first and then walk it back if needed. I'm fairly confident that it would increase the viability of the game mode rather than hinder it. 6. Dev resources have already been expended. Platoons exists in Planetary Conquest come 1.2 and can be added to FW with essentially no Dev effort. Of course you would rather have a several months window where you can farm unopposed. That almost goes without saying, but thanks for covering it. As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation. Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:04:00 - [354] - Quote Rebutals: 1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins. 2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment. 3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad. 4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely. 5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC. It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are. Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that. Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident" Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced. As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:06:00 - [355] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation. Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now? I would say have a dev finish off both of these changes while finishing a cup of coffee. I think that'd make for quite a productive cup of joe! Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:08:00 - [356] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: They are an unfortunate but necessary casualty for the greater good of the community. And this attitude is one that Kain will never understand. Regardless of anything else, you can always count on Kain arguing for changes that serve his interests, and everyone else can go pound sand. Rarely do the interests of the NF core coincide with the health of the game. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:10:00 - [357] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The Attorney General wrote: As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation. Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now? I would say have a dev finish off both of these changes while finishing a cup of coffee. I think that'd make for quite a productive cup of joe! Would you agree that removing that horrible map would have a greater impact on the overall enjoyment of the game for all players than adjustments to FW ahead of already incoming changes? I would suppose that more people suffer from a poor experience because of that map than the small group of stompers who need a full team to not get rolled. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
IgniteableAura Pro Hic Immortalis 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:13:00 - [358] - Quote I'd say you can team deploy in FW but it costs command points... My Youtube Biomassed Podcast
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 710	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:14:00 - [359] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate? 1. Current PC 2.0 i being designed to encourage more participation by smaller corps, FW is the introduction of organised team play for players (give 4 man pubs) and the gateway for corps to become PC ready 2. The same as current - none 3. Squad finder, no longer need to voice in faction channels (what are they? -newbro) 4. More participation in FW, the same conditions as current (a sync is not always 16) 5. Dust does not have long left in the current format and FW is hardly thriving, therefore it is worth the risk to reinvigorate it Do other things need to be considered? Yes, leaving match, but CCP deployed matchmaking in pubs without giving that much thought ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:16:00 - [360] - Quote Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through: Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs. This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:18:00 - [361] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through: Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs. This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy. Take a read through my rebutals above and lets see what you have to say. Ignoring that and making tinfoil jokes is right along with what you have done in the rest of this thread. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:23:00 - [362] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through: Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs. This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy. And again, you are not addressing the fundamental crux of my argument. This is not about simply syncing up, but the dynamics that are created for an easily exploitable system by having team deploy. You may be scum, but you are not stupid, and you can clearly see how to game the system if team deploys are made available. However, since you are an exploiting piece of trash like you always have been, of course you will maximize the advantage if you can get it. Being able to sync is not the issue. Being able to socially engineer who gets wins in FW or not is. Tinfoil only applies when the subject at hand is improbable, or there are other more likely explanations. You trying to game the system is not improbable, you did it before. And it is just as likely(if not more so) that you are arguing for a self serving mechanic out of greed rather than some benign concern for the health of the game(which you have never shown up to now, in action, not words). Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:24:00 - [363] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI. @ Kain Spero, SirManBoy, Juno Tristan Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. One last rhetorical question in response to the point above and a potential request. Is it not true that FW q-syncs fail on occasion? And on those occasions, do the "non-party" players who've been waiting in line for FW (for potentially long periods) get into a match? As I understand it, this is the case today and it would not be the case if those q-syncing did in fact have the equivalent of team deploy. If a team deploy UI existed, 32-man syncs would "skip the line" altogether as they effectively create their own matches. Meanwhile, the assorted lego blocks in queue would likely remain in queue until other blocks of perfect, complementary size queued alongside them. I haven't read Leither's or Wikipedia's theories on this, but I seriously doubt that at current headcounts these "perfect storms" would happen in a timely fashion. Perpetual queues would make for an extremely poor UX. Assuming Team Deploy is supported: Request * A Squad Leader cannot queue FW until he has a full squad of 8 or a full platoon of 16. * The option to queue for FW is disabled to fireteams or partially filled squads/platoons. * Players without squad (solo) are permitted to queue for FW to fill gaps created by disconnect, leaving battle, etc. * Players without squad (solo) are warned when they enter a FW queue that they do so at high risk. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:25:00 - [364] - Quote Come on Kain show where my tinfoil is here deezy dabest wrote: Rebutals: 1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins. 2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment. 3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad. 4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely. 5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC. It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are. Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that. Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident" Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced. As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Powerh8er Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 865	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:31:00 - [365] - Quote Team deploy would be a blessing to the vets of the game which most of all wants a no bullshit clean good game outside PC. Anyone who opposses this suggestion is a scrub. Thats a Scientifictional fact. "if it can be done with sheep it can be done with HOBBITS!" - JONAHBENHUR
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 711	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:33:00 - [366] - Quote Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:38:00 - [367] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game? On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:44:00 - [368] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI. @ Kain Spero, SirManBoy, Juno Tristan Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. One last rhetorical question in response to the point above and a potential request. Is it not true that FW q-syncs fail on occasion? And on those occasions, do the "non-party" players who've been waiting in line for FW (for potentially long periods) get into a match? As I understand it, this is the case today and it would not be the case if those q-syncing did in fact have the equivalent of team deploy. If a team deploy UI existed, 32-man syncs would "skip the line" altogether as they effectively create their own matches. Meanwhile, the assorted lego blocks in queue would likely remain in queue until other blocks of perfect, complementary size queued alongside them. I haven't read Leither's or Wikipedia's theories on this, but I seriously doubt that at current headcounts these "perfect storms" would happen in a timely fashion. Unexplained, perpetual queues would make for an extremely poor UX. Assuming Team Deploy is supported: Request * A Squad Leader cannot queue for FW until he has a full squad of 8 or a full platoon of 16. * The option to queue for FW is disabled to fireteams or partially filled squads/platoons. * Players without squad are permitted to queue for FW to fill the singular gaps left by disconnect, leaving battle, etc. * Players without squad are prompted with an "enter at your own risk" warning when they enter FW queue. C'mon you know I'm likely to answer even if you flag it as rhetorical. When q-syncs fail it's more of the parties end up in different matches. This can be seen in when a q-sync fails we'll cancel out to pick up the lost squad(s) and then deploy again into another match shorty afterwards. The timing of this could be shorter or longer depending on the pool of players currently in FW. Again, there would only be so many 16 man groups and what you describe is the system doing it's best to actually make sure the 16 man groups fight each other as best it can and create numerically competitive matches in a timely fashion. For what the exact wait times and effects will be we can use observational evidence from what we've experienced so far with q-syncs running in FW, but there is no way to model exactly what will occur since we lack a lot of concrete numbers like the average FW player pool for each faction pair, average group sizing, number of solo queuing players, etc. In order to ensure that everyone gets slotted in you actually wouldn't want to force deployment of groups at a certain sizes IMO. The team builder for FW will be much more efficient and make use of solo players queuing to ensure teams end up with 16 v 16. I think that solo queuing players having a warning when joining FW would make a lot of sense. It reminds me a lot of the warning you get in Eve when jumping into Low Sec. That said I don't think that is something that should delay the addition of team deploy in the current environment. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 713	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:48:00 - [369] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game? On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6. New players get kicked because there's no room in the squad (of 6 or 12) to make way for a vet and they don't have the skills to set up a new squad to sync Team deploy will make it easier for them to stay on ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:57:00 - [370] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game? On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6. New players get kicked because there's no room in the squad (of 6 or 12) to make way for a vet and they don't have the skills to set up a new squad to sync Team deploy will make it easier for them to stay on Kicking when trying to fill up is not the issue. It is the endless supply of impatient people who leave after a minute or so to try to hop in a squad that is going into battle right then. Filling up a squad of 16 is very likely to be met with going through a cycle of losing 1 - 2 people for every 3 - 4 that you gain. How much of that is the squad lead going to put up with before he just tosses one of those messed up blocks into the team builder and runs into the issues of trying to be matched up while more appropriately numbered squads go ahead of them in line due to matching numbers and prioritization. It is seriously a logistical night mare to have such variations going on. I really believe that this is exactly why CCP went with 8 man squads in FW but we will never know. Even if it is not a massive amount of extra time at the end of the day why risk it instead of just making everyone happy with a solution that plays well inside of the code and gives everyone an equal chance. This has been my biggest point of contention for this entire thread simply for the fact that it has the potential to make FW a disaster area if I am even close to correct. In our current environment neither us or CCP can afford to go messing up an entire game mode for whatever amount of time it takes them to change their mind back and push the actual update through. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:08:00 - [371] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Team deploy would be a blessing to the vets of the game which most of all wants a no bullshit clean good game outside PC. Anyone who opposses this suggestion is a scrub. Thats a Scientifictional fact. No such thing as a no bullshit game, this is dust. Needing 16 men to win a FW is what makes you a scrub. Then again, you don't roll without 5 buddies into pub matches, so you calling anyone a scrub is more than a bit hypocritical. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 715	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:08:00 - [372] - Quote You will alwaysa have randoms queuing up ready to fill the gaps ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:19:00 - [373] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: You will alwaysa have randoms queuing up ready to fill the gaps Totally agreed but the issue is the more messed up blocks you have the more randoms get drawn in and the less chance they are there to fill in for more matches to get going in a timely manner. Unfortunately we need to think about this from a perspective of making FW work across as many time zones as possible which is a pretty big issue right now. When it is early in the morning or late at night when there are far less randoms around 2 squads of 9 searching may see one of them getting in when with 8 man squads there is a slightly higher chance of everyone involved getting into battle and having a good time. Its like in the example I have presented a couple of times. Quote: Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when only 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. While I am no mathematician the possibility of having that many people searching and no battle going on in a community of our sizes seems like a very serious issue. Obviously it would be a massive anomaly but in the slower times we could see enough people searching for 3 - 4 matches to be going but only 1 going on thanks to messed up blocks. In the above scenario the squad of 13 would be priority in the current system meaning they will grab 3 randoms and roll out. Then you have 42 people waiting on 22 randoms or properly formed squad. Making it all the way down to the 9 man squad would take entirely too long assuming it is any time other than prime time. This is also all assuming that there is not 14 and 15 man squads jumping in during that wait scooping up all of the randoms due to their size giving them priority. This is exactly why I say there is potential that a wrong numbered squad could be left searching indefinitely. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 16:35:00 - [374] - Quote Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 16:53:00 - [375] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios. In my opinion, it is far more fanciful to think that queue times would be fine than it is to think there might be a problem. We may not have exact numbers, but we don't need exact numbers. We have a rough idea as to how many players are logging into Dust each day. We know that those players are split across multiple regions and timezones, and we know that those players are not all queuing for FW. If we assume that 3000 players are logged in at any given time, We know that we don't have 10,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. We know that we don't have 5,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. We know that we likely won't have 1,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. Realistically, we might have 500 players queuing simultaneously for FW. Of those 500, I think it reasonable to assume that half will be party to organized battles. Point being, valid concerns can be posited based solely upon ballparked figures. I'm of the opinion that extremely long waits would be much more likely than short waits. And if those waits are long, they will only lengthen as players discover that the lines are not worth waiting in. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 547	Posted - 2015.07.02 16:58:00 - [376] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Powerh8er wrote: Team deploy would be a blessing to the vets of the game which most of all wants a no bullshit clean good game outside PC. Anyone who opposses this suggestion is a scrub. Thats a Scientifictional fact. No such thing as a no bullshit game, this is dust. Needing 16 men to win a FW is what makes you a scrub. Then again, you don't roll without 5 buddies into pub matches, so you calling anyone a scrub is more than a bit hypocritical. Nobody is saying they need 16 to win. I guess it's easy to not grow tired of worthless blueberries when you don't actually play the game you visit the forum for.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.02 17:00:00 - [377] - Quote There i go onto the lake to swimm while its 35 degree celcius and then i come back and see the forum tards teaming up against Kain. And with forum tards i mean The Attorney General and Deezy dabest. If it wouldnt be for kain then the ISk fountain would never had beeing shut down in the first place. The blue donut was required cause CCP only acts when they see extreme cases like this hardcore ISK farming. PC 1.0 was a mess when it launched cause all you had to do is bee quick after downtime and claim as much districts as possible. You didnt had to be a CPM to know that. @ The Attorney General: get off the forum cause you obviously have no clearence by the guy who watches over you so you dont set the house on fire or some other tard stuff. @Deezy Dabest: must be nice to repeat yourself like a tape from the 90's where you wind it back up and play the same nonesense again with worse quality each time. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Powerh8er Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 872	Posted - 2015.07.02 17:08:00 - [378] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Powerh8er wrote: Team deploy would be a blessing to the vets of the game which most of all wants a no bullshit clean good game outside PC. Anyone who opposses this suggestion is a scrub. Thats a Scientifictional fact. No such thing as a no bullshit game, this is dust. Needing 16 men to win a FW is what makes you a scrub. Then again, you don't roll without 5 buddies into pub matches, so you calling anyone a scrub is more than a bit hypocritical. Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b. Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular. "if it can be done with sheep it can be done with HOBBITS!" - JONAHBENHUR
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.02 17:37:00 - [379] - Quote The butthurt is real Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:04:00 - [380] - Quote thor424 wrote: Nobody is saying they need 16 to win. I guess it's easy to not grow tired of worthless blueberries when you don't actually play the game you visit the forum for. I'm saying they need 16 to win. They won't even fight without twelve. Why would I care about blueberries? I learned long, long ago to embrace the blues for their incompetence. I count on them to redline snipe, or go for a melee kill on the guy swarming me. Nothing new about it, you spin the wheel, you take your chances. Personally, the only time a redline is enjoyable rather than boring is if I am drunk and feeling chatty. Other than that I could not be bothered to dominate a pub so hard I'm driving into their redline to pass the time. There are others who would rather never lose a suit and never be at risk of losing. Those people are cancerous to the overall atmosphere of the game. If you give them an option to stack the deck, they are going to go as hard as possible to build in every advantage they can. It is perfectly natural for them to do so. Minimum investment, maximum return is hard wired into our brains for mass appeal. Which is precisely why you have to engineer the system to prevent those types of killjoys from being able to get their way. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:11:00 - [381] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b. Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular. The level of competition is dependent on the people playing, not the manner in which they get into the match. If corp a and corp b want to have a showdown, they can PC. Making it easier to rig the FW deck doesn't change that. Making it easier for corp a and corp b to offset their syncs so they don't have to face each other but can instead both pound on smaller squads or full teams of randoms is counter productive to getting more people involved, and creates a host of social engineering issues that could be even more toxic. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:13:00 - [382] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: The blue donut was required . And you try and call me special? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 258	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:20:00 - [383] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios. In my opinion, it is far more fanciful to assume that queue times would be fine because "insert theory" than it is to suspect that there might be a problem. We may not have exact numbers, but we don't need exact numbers. We have a rough idea as to how many players are logging into Dust each day. We know that those players are split across multiple regions and timezones, and we know that those players are not all queuing for FW. If we assume that 3000 players are logged in at any given time, We know that we don't have 10,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. We know that we don't have 5,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. We know that we likely won't have 1,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW. Realistically, we might have 500 ( +/- X) players queuing simultaneously for FW. Of those 500, I think it reasonable to assume that a large subset will be party to organized battles. Of the remaining randomly sized "lego blocks", not all will be evenly divided across the 4 factions. Point being, valid concerns can be posited based solely upon ballparked figures. We've an optimization problem here with extremely specific output requirements and a wide range of variable inputs. I'm of the opinion that extremely long waits would be much more likely than short waits. And if those lines start out long, they will only lengthen as players discover that the lines are not worth waiting in. If the goal is to eventually roll out team deploy for FW, I believe we'd do well to first restrict our inputs to readily managed blocks. I'd suggest blocks of 1, 8 and 16. I don't agree, but I +1 because you have the most logical statement about what will happen and reasonable support. The fact of the matter is that CCP is about as gentle as a jack hammer when it comes to gently scaling up or down. They are changing their pattern by going to 8 then talking about how they will follow up on the 16. The one thing I think would be nice for FW would be to see the open seats for each faction or see the queued up lines for each faction. The game is so heavy now though that the information would add lag we don't need. (Someone needs to learn how to write a stored proc and schedule it for periodic updates to staging tables for that kind of info.) That is why team deploy in squad finder would be awesome. Queue up your own team and then you are simply waiting for another team. Like you stated, some factions are more empty than others. This has fluctuated recently due to changes, so that is nice, but team deploy is the main way I see solving that problem. That is why kick starting came into effect. Scotty has a hard time matching up 16 solos in queue with the two 6 man teams queued opposing and then grabbing 4 randoms. Have one of those squads leave then re-enter and you are really hosing up Scotty. That is why team deploy is needed for the experiment. If there were team deploys we could see if the exclusivity happened, I doubt it. We also could see if FW occurred more regularly, very likely. The subtle approach won't allow this test because you are simply changing the squads not adding team deploy. We will still have the problem of letting Scotty trying to match up now bigger squads and the randoms to fight bigger squads and randoms. Scotty is drunk, we all know that. The positives out weigh the negatives here. Positive: Less wait times Less Scotty errors Unpopular Races should get more team syncs Team communication No qsyncs No backouts - the team knows who backs out More PC feeling for non-district holding mercs More community! Noobs get help and make friends in team deploy (Maybe get noticed as a team player and corp invited) Negative: Possibly excluding randoms until they join a team in squad finder or in a channel Single FC trying to manage FW - That will be tough Team stomps - but team vs team - Maybe the best mercs would clump - They could ruin things, but considering they all get on the rag sooner or later they would start to **** each other off Kain gets his way (I really didn't want that to happen. JK) Deezy and Attorney tears (So loud, QQ) All future comments should have a nice layout like that. List positive or negatives in a growing list. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:29:00 - [384] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: The blue donut was required . And you try and call me special? I dont have to try cause i allready did or is that too much for you to understand? Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 243	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:30:00 - [385] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: The blue donut was required . And you try and call me special? what fossil did you crawl out of? lol
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 258	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:36:00 - [386] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: The blue donut was required . And you try and call me special? Attorney and Deezy - You seem to be the minority here but you have an opinion. Please stay on target and list your arguments as positive and negative for team deploy. Negatives and counters: Everyone hears the fear for the team stomp. Counter: This might happen but since it is 16 versus 16 you have to blame yourself. If you are worried the other side is better, you have given up before the fight. Use tactics and learn that not all fights are going to be traditional wins. Read some Tsung Su, "Winning (a battle) is all about defining what is the best outcome and achieving it, this may even be a defeat on your terms." You can learn from defeat and advance beyond your competition. Teams excluding randoms. Counter: The fear of excluding is improbable because squad finder is always putting random people together. I use it all the time for FW. Open it up and at any given time there are 8 teams across multiple languages. I don't want to be in a squad or team. Counter: That is stating you don't like people in a team based shooter. Sorry, but that is not viable, especially for people on the forums. Learn to get along or go play solo PVE games. This game has people in it. Please specify your negatives in single sentence outcomes. That will make rebuking or weighting easier. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 18:56:00 - [387] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Negatives and counters: Everyone hears the fear for the team stomp. Counter: This might happen but since it is 16 versus 16 you have to blame yourself. If you are worried the other side is better, you have given up before the fight. Use tactics and learn that not all fights are going to be traditional wins. Read some Tsung Su, "Winning (a battle) is all about defining what is the best outcome and achieving it, this may even be a defeat on your terms." You can learn from defeat and advance beyond your competition. That isn't a counter argument, it is a philosophical statement on being a good loser. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Teams excluding randoms. Counter: The fear of excluding is improbable because squad finder is always putting random people together. I use it all the time for FW. Open it up and at any given time there are 8 teams across multiple languages. And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Balistyc Farshot wrote: I don't want to be in a squad or team. Counter: That is stating you don't like people in a team based shooter. Sorry, but that is not viable, especially for people on the forums. Learn to get along or go play solo PVE games. This game has people in it. I didn't see this point brought up by anyone, but sure, lets address it. I shouldn't have to squad up to play FW. Squadding up should improve my experience(depending on the degree of douchebag you are required to listen to) but it should be a choice I make, not made for me. If I want to fight for the Amarr by myself, that should be good to go. If I want to join solo into minnie FW and intentionally drag down the team, AWOX'ing is real. Closing off gameplay options just so that some people can have an easier time arranging a stomp is going backwards. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Please specify your negatives in single sentence outcomes. That will make rebuking or weighting easier. Now please address the ease with which a team deploy system would be able to be staggered and virtually assure dominant matchups, which has been my primary point, and which no one wants to refute. Putting in place an easily gamed system does no one any good, and it will be exploited, either by Kane or some other equally selfish group. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 258	Posted - 2015.07.02 19:52:00 - [388] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Negatives and counters: Everyone hears the fear for the team stomp. Counter: This might happen but since it is 16 versus 16 you have to blame yourself. If you are worried the other side is better, you have given up before the fight. Use tactics and learn that not all fights are going to be traditional wins. Read some Tsung Su, "Winning (a battle) is all about defining what is the best outcome and achieving it, this may even be a defeat on your terms." You can learn from defeat and advance beyond your competition. That isn't a counter argument, it is a philosophical statement on being a good loser. Balistyc - Uhm, the statement is to improve or change tactics even against steep odds. I FC some PCs and there are many tactics that can be deployed. If a sports team keeps beating your team, then make the next game about losing by less points by focusing defense, then as you improve the losing gap is smaller so you have less of a gap which you can turn into a win with some luck and skill. Stop focusing on the fact that you could win if the other team did not show up! Glory is achieved through victory which requires effort. Without effort there is no glory. You are saying this will be a stomp because I can't beat the other team if there are 16 of them talking. Well you have 16 talking, where is the advantage? Balistyc Farshot wrote: Teams excluding randoms. Counter: The fear of excluding is improbable because squad finder is always putting random people together. I use it all the time for FW. Open it up and at any given time there are 8 teams across multiple languages. And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Balistyc - Penalized? You are going to be in a team of 16 no matter what. This says, let the team fill outside of queue, then join. How is that a penalty? It gives you control instead of Scotty. Team deploy would be waiting to make the 16 or lets say 10+ team then joining in and starting the match. You will need 10 minimum to start. So what is your true argument? You don't like being told you have to team up with 10+ more people? If so, then state that. Not a fear of team stomping. Balistyc Farshot wrote: I don't want to be in a squad or team. Counter: That is stating you don't like people in a team based shooter. Sorry, but that is not viable, especially for people on the forums. Learn to get along or go play solo PVE games. This game has people in it. I didn't see this point brought up by anyone, but sure, lets address it. I shouldn't have to squad up to play FW. Squadding up should improve my experience(depending on the degree of douchebag you are required to listen to) but it should be a choice I make, not made for me. If I want to fight for the Amarr by myself, that should be good to go. If I want to join solo into minnie FW and intentionally drag down the team, AWOX'ing is real. Closing off gameplay options just so that some people can have an easier time arranging a stomp is going backwards. Balistyc - This speaks more to the point that some people refuse to acknowledge they are on a team and want to continually try to kick a goal into their own net. You are seeing the team as a group of stompers. The average player hates these counter productive players as well, I do. Especially when they are trying to turn a stomp. If someone wants to go be an un-useful jerk, why would you build the game around that trolling aspect? That hurts everyone, not just the team stompers. It also hurts the team's moral because they see a group of blue berries pull that move and feel segregated and alone and wish harder for some teamwork. I don't support those trolls, why do you? Balistyc Farshot wrote: Please specify your negatives in single sentence outcomes. That will make rebuking or weighting easier. Now please address the ease with which a team deploy system would be able to be staggered and virtually assure dominant matchups, which has been my primary point, and which no one wants to refute. Putting in place an easily gamed system does no one any good, and it will be exploited, either by Kane or some other equally selfish group. Balistyc - Why do you think having 16 guys together makes them unbeatable? I agree this could happen but with the payoff being too low why would that be present. LP is hard to use to fund proto. Where is the driver or profit? - Counter is there is minimal incentive. I haven't fought Kane but I do hate how a lot of the PC corps used to exploit the situation. They would rather hold hands than fight each other and potentially lose. That is the minority of the population is the truth of the matter.I am fighting for this in PC because I hate what ringers have done to that game mode. At least in FW the payout is nice and low so minimal coordination or jerks rigging the teams. If we have team deploy in FW there will be some monster teams, but we need to be willing to counter them. It is the price for playing FW instead of pubs. Why is that so bad? We may lose. It is a competition where someone loses. Join a channel and understand my view point please. Qsyncs happen today and no one feels exploited. If Kane gives us issues, lets deal with it then. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:18:00 - [389] - Quote First off, reformatting the post greatly helps with readability. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Uhm, the statement is to improve or change tactics even against steep odds. I FC some PCs and there are many tactics that can be deployed. If a sports team keeps beating your team, then make the next game about losing by less points by focusing defense, then as you improve the losing gap is smaller so you have less of a gap which you can turn into a win with some luck and skill. Stop focusing on the fact that you could win if the other team did not show up! Glory is achieved through victory which requires effort. Without effort there is no glory. You are saying this will be a stomp because I can't beat the other team if there are 16 of them talking. Well you have 16 talking, where is the advantage? So I need to be on comms with 15 other people to play FW now? Most of this is still merely philosophy, and has no bearing on the original point. Telling people to try harder isn't a solution for the other side team stacking. Balistyc Farshot wrote: This speaks more to the point that some people refuse to acknowledge they are on a team and want to continually try to kick a goal into their own net. You are seeing the team as a group of stompers. The average player hates these counter productive players as well, I do. Especially when they are trying to turn a stomp. If someone wants to go be an un-useful jerk, why would you build the game around that trolling aspect? That hurts everyone, not just the team stompers. It also hurts the team's moral because they see a group of blue berries pull that move and feel segregated and alone and wish harder for some teamwork. I don't support those trolls, why do you? Sentences 1,2 and 3 have no bearing on anything. Sentence 4, I don't know what turning a stomp is. Sentence 5, trolling happens. Subterfuge happens. If you don't like that, GET OUT OF NEW EDEN. No amount of silly baby bullshit will ever make this a flexible point. That is a hard rule in the EvE universe, and unless you don't want to be playing FW at all, you have to accept that. New Eden is never going to change for Dust. I may not like getting awoxed, but it damn well always be an option. More importantly, I support their OPTION to that playstyle. I don't have to do it, I can even look down on it. But I am not going to say they can't play that way. I'm not an elitist. That was the preface, and these points don't really need to be debated. I was just sort of playing along with your supposed counter arguments. Going to run out of quotes if I try to do the important part in this post. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:34:00 - [390] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Now please address the ease with which a team deploy system would be able to be staggered and virtually assure dominant matchups, which has been my primary point, and which no one wants to refute. Putting in place an easily gamed system does no one any good, and it will be exploited, either by Kane or some other equally selfish group. Why do you think having 16 guys together makes them unbeatable? I agree this could happen but with the payoff being too low why would that be present. LP is hard to use to fund proto. Where is the driver or profit? - Counter is there is minimal incentive. Why did people AFK in the MCC in a game where passive SP is gained? Because people will game any weak system. Why did people farm alts for ISK until that got stopped? Because people will game any weak system. Why did people district lock instead of actually fighting(especially these people who claim they are looking for close, tight matches)? Say it with me once again: Because people will game any weak system. If the system is weak, people will abuse it. That people think that this is some unique situation is absurd. That people think the people still playing this game with a history of seeking every tiny edge wouldn't jump on a broken bandwagon is puzzling. Balistyc Farshot wrote: I haven't fought Kane but I do hate how a lot of the PC corps used to exploit the situation. They would rather hold hands than fight each other and potentially lose. That is the minority of the population is the truth of the matter. I agree that they are in the minority, however, they are also some of the most committed no life dust players out there. And giving them the chance to screw over FW and profit off of it and they will. It doesn't even have to be about profit, as it would be about ease of play. If you can manipulate the queue to get uncoordinated matches, you gameplay in between hyper competitive PCs becomes a walk in the park and profitable, all at the expense of people you don't care about. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Qsyncs happen today and no one feels exploited. If Kane gives us issues, lets deal with it then. Hell no. You don't give people a broken system and say if they abuse it we will change it. It will be abused. The chances of a team deploy system in FW being manipulated are about the same as the sun rising in the east tomorrow. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:55:00 - [391] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.02 20:55:00 - [392] - Quote Attorney General, I know you don't like me and that's fine. That you would turn personal feelings against me into some sort of grounds to start some tin foil parade against a systems that would help players realize a multi-year dream is hilarious. Please explain to me in detail how team deploy can be exploited any differently than 4 eight-man squads on coms in a custom channel selecting two opposing factions and syncing? Also, please explain to me in detail how you perceive these matches would be exploited given that CCP has policies against boosting and 32 players attempting to do so would be red flagged. Please explain to me in detail how this group would magically bypass the SP thresholds per match CCP has put in place, the 150 clone limit for each side in a match that determines the maximum amount of equipment that can be destroyed, or the progressive reduction in ISK value of BPOs such as LAVs whose destruction CCP tracks and whose value would be reduced further if they detected outliers in the system? Also, I'd like to thank your persistence in ensuring that this topic stays on the front page of the forums. This issue's visibility to the community is paramount. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 258	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:05:00 - [393] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Now please address the ease with which a team deploy system would be able to be staggered and virtually assure dominant matchups, which has been my primary point, and which no one wants to refute. Putting in place an easily gamed system does no one any good, and it will be exploited, either by Kane or some other equally selfish group. Why do you think having 16 guys together makes them unbeatable? I agree this could happen but with the payoff being too low why would that be present. LP is hard to use to fund proto. Where is the driver or profit? - Counter is there is minimal incentive. Blah! Because people will game any weak system. That people think that this is some unique situation is absurd. That people think the people still playing this game with a history of seeking every tiny edge wouldn't jump on a broken bandwagon is puzzling. I agree that they are in the minority, however, they are also some of the most committed no life dust players out there. And giving them the chance to screw over FW and profit off of it and they will. It doesn't even have to be about profit, as it would be about ease of play. If you can manipulate the queue to get uncoordinated matches, you gameplay in between hyper competitive PCs becomes a walk in the park and profitable, all at the expense of people you don't care about. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Qsyncs happen today and no one feels exploited. If Kane gives us issues, lets deal with it then. Hell no. You don't give people a broken system and say if they abuse it we will change it. It will be abused. The chances of a team deploy system in FW being manipulated are about the same as the sun rising in the east tomorrow. Ok - Firstly, you are very annoying pushing for trolling to be an approved game style just because. That is typical forum troll response. It makes the rest of this very thin, so lets just move on from you approving of that behavior. You don't seem to want to acknowledge that having a team would make it easier to counter a team, but you don't sound like you understand the value of teamwork with all these posts you are depicted a distinct dislike for being told how to improve in any way. Back to the point. You want CCP to code the game so that people can't organize to remove any possibility of united gaming of the system. So you want to punish the wicked and the innocent in one motion. Interesting. So you must dislike qsyncs as well. Even though tons of randoms love them. I think you are painting yourself in the minority here. Most people want to play together as a team and win as a team. Small solo playing structure is the basis for games like COD. Dust is supposed to be more about community, hence the corp structure. If the new PC mode keeps the exploiting jerks busy, then perhaps we can have actual fun FW battles. That is why we want team deploy. Your statement about exploiting due to team stomping would require the team that wins gaining something of value. LP has too little value currently for the stomp to be profitable. That is why this is the perfect place for fun loving team players. The only people who would be stacking are KDR and Win/Loss board lovers. Those people are really not gaining anything you care about. Your explanation of their plan: Form proto stomp team Join sync against noob team Stomp Team and acquire LP at cost of isk ... Profit Explain their angle for exploiting and I will try to see why we should fear the exploit. Otherwise we should fear every move we make because they will exploit it. That will stop good features like team entry. I am trying to see your side here. Trust me, I hate the exploiting community in Dust. It caused many great (not just skilled) players to leave this game. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:15:00 - [394] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Attorney General, I know you don't like me and that's fine. That you would turn personal feelings against me into some sort of grounds to start some tin foil parade against a systems that would help players realize a multi-year dream is hilarious. Me pointing out that the idea is bad isn't personal. Me pointing out that you have a history of taking maximum advantage of any soft spots in systems is not personal, merely a fact. Do I dislike you? Absolutely. I don't need to rehash my criticisms of you here, as me liking you wouldn't stop my opposition to this idea. Kain Spero wrote: Please explain to me in detail how team deploy can be exploited any differently than 4 eight-man squads on coms in a custom channel selecting two opposing factions and syncing? Its slightly easier, and of course doesn't have the RNG interference from other people in the q. Its a more efficient way of generating stacked matches. Kain Spero wrote: Also, please explain to me in detail how you perceive these matches would be exploited given that CCP has policies against boosting and 32 players attempting to do so would be red flagged. Please explain to me in detail how this group would magically bypass the SP thresholds per match CCP has put in place, the 150 clone limit for each side in a match that determines the maximum amount of equipment that can be destroyed, or the progressive reduction in ISK value of BPOs such as LAVs whose destruction CCP tracks and whose value would be reduced further if they detected outliers in the system? See post 288. It isn't about WP boosting. Its about queue management to get 16 versus randoms. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 259	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:25:00 - [395] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: psyanyde wrote: It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Having team deploy wouldn't stop people from going solo into FW matches. It would only insure that once 16 losers were found they would get dumped into a team stomp. They would then leave the match over time, creating a super easy win for the scrubs stacking. Put two groups together, one for Minmatar and one for Amarr. Group one queues for a match. Once they get one, the other group fires up their search. Now you have two syncs going for the price of one, and both teams are almost assured wins. Free LP for everyone they like. Everyone else gets left out in the cold. Post #288 above. So again you think 32 people with skill are going to be able to push around the queues. The population of jerks can't arrange that. Sorry, but you are chasing windmills here. (Sorry, I read. Comparing your argument to a crazed spanish knight.) Also you think this will happen for LP, but why? Also, not everyone will back out and what happens when another queue of guys comes in and stomps them back. Goon Feet used to love doing that. I miss those guys a little. Each race has its heroes in Dust who can rally a good fight back. Go read some posts about us shaking sabers at each other. This isn't corp fights. People have party lines we have drawn for fun. Hell, message me what race is doing this and I will go take them down myself. As long as they aren't Matari. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:28:00 - [396] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Ok - Firstly, you are very annoying pushing for trolling to be an approved game style just because. That is typical forum troll response. It makes the rest of this very thin, so lets just move on from you approving of that behavior. We most certainly not just move on from that. It isn't about approved playstyles. Its about people being able to AWOX, which I fully support, even if I don't engage in it myself. I'm not supportive on things that wall off parts of the game, or forbid playstyles. Especially in FW, if someone wants to make an army of alts and spend all day awoxing and getting kicked, they can rock out until they get bored. Such is the nature of what should be an accessible form of gameplay in service of your chosen faction, instead of a farm LP for skins garbage we have going on now. Balistyc Farshot wrote: You don't seem to want to acknowledge that having a team would make it easier to counter a team, but you don't sound like you understand the value of teamwork with all these posts you are depicted a distinct dislike for being told how to improve in any way. And you seem to think this is about gameplay instead of matchmaking queue mechanics. Balistyc Farshot wrote: Back to the point. You want CCP to code the game so that people can't organize to remove any possibility of united gaming of the system. So you want to punish the wicked and the innocent in one motion. Interesting. So you must dislike qsyncs as well. Even though tons of randoms love them. Please provide a quote where I said I want CCP to remove organization options. You can't because I didn't. You talk about trolling then try and put words in my mouth, thats some bad form. Congrats on getting your posts hidden. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 550	Posted - 2015.07.02 21:52:00 - [397] - Quote Shouldn't a game like Dust be competitive enough that a few groups of 16 couldn't run unchecked in a game mode? If the potential rewards are so game breaking why aren't more groups willing to go after it? It just doesn't add up to me.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:22:00 - [398] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios. So you claim that when a squad of any size between 1 and 16 can be formed that everyone is going to just make sure to hop in 8s and 16s to keep in nice and orderly? You can say my numbers are flawed, full of bias, just plain stupid, full of tin foil, or any other insult you want to try but the simple fact is you have had every chance to disprove them in the slightest and have not even attempted to. It is all really basic common sense but that is obviously something that has escaped you totally. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:29:00 - [399] - Quote True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. This is absolutely a joke. Larger groups are given easier ability to queue together while mid sized groups are more likely to have actual support and randoms are still there to fill in. This lunatic agenda of screaming that not having team deploy hurts large groups is absolutely hilarious rhetoric. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:42:00 - [400] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. This is absolutely a joke. Larger groups are given easier ability to queue together while mid sized groups are more likely to have actual support and randoms are still there to fill in. This lunatic agenda of screaming that not having team deploy hurts large groups is absolutely hilarious rhetoric. As I've said the sole aspect of FW that I am interested in is ensuring that it is a narrative driven persistent conflict that allows people to take it as seriously as they want. If I want to take the mode seriously I see no reason why I should not be able to. Player determined combat zones somewhat do this as larger groups would ideally convene in the more hotly contested areas while smaller group could finish themselves in less contested area. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:53:00 - [401] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. This is absolutely a joke. Larger groups are given easier ability to queue together while mid sized groups are more likely to have actual support and randoms are still there to fill in. This lunatic agenda of screaming that not having team deploy hurts large groups is absolutely hilarious rhetoric. As I've said the sole aspect of FW that I am interested in is ensuring that it is a narrative driven persistent conflict that allows people to take it as seriously as they want. If I want to take the mode seriously I see no reason why I should not be able to. Player determined combat zones somewhat do this as larger groups would ideally convene in the more hotly contested areas while smaller group could finish themselves in less contested area. We all know that you can take it as serious as you want to. Large groups are free to sync in as much as they want and in the new system they are probably going to be met with alot more persistent higher level combat than before. Unfortunately the people like me and you who care about a narrative or lore or any of that are in the minority. FW is at its core meant to be a middle ground between pubs and PC which highly rewards coordination but allows anyone the chance to join and get the crap kicked out of them if they do not participate in more organized ways. Simply put FW is survival of the fittest to give people a chance to learn the ways of working together with the team while they hope to make it up to PC. FW is not PC and it is not meant to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:00:00 - [402] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b. Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular. Making corp A versus corp B as easy as possible is what PC is for. That is why an incredible amount of work has gone into lowering the barrier to entry for PC while shutting off the farmability. Just because PC has been constantly dumped on and broken for the entire history of this game does not mean we should break FW for most of the community just to make it a PC substitute. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:20:00 - [403] - Quote True Adamance wrote: As I've said the sole aspect of FW that I am interested in is ensuring that it is a narrative driven persistent conflict that allows people to take it as seriously as they want. If I want to take the mode seriously I see no reason why I should not be able to. Player determined combat zones somewhat do this as larger groups would ideally convene in the more hotly contested areas while smaller group could finish themselves in less contested area. The bold portions I agree with 100%. I'm all for creating a system where there is a place for full teams and low number people. How they come to that is not clear to me, although I do like your combat zone idea. Heck give me an 8 v 8 with no squads on smaller maps for lesser rewards, I'd be all up on that ****. But I would still disagree with team deploy for FW. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:23:00 - [404] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: True Adamance wrote: As I've said the sole aspect of FW that I am interested in is ensuring that it is a narrative driven persistent conflict that allows people to take it as seriously as they want. If I want to take the mode seriously I see no reason why I should not be able to. Player determined combat zones somewhat do this as larger groups would ideally convene in the more hotly contested areas while smaller group could finish themselves in less contested area. The bold portions I agree with 100%. I'm all for creating a system where there is a place for full teams and low number people. How they come to that is not clear to me, although I do like your combat zone idea. Heck give me an 8 v 8 with no squads on smaller maps for lesser rewards, I'd be all up on that **. But I would still disagree with team deploy for FW. However you cannot segment them. FW systems are not always important all the time. Serious fights would eventuate pretty much whenever a militia says "Oi ** boys go get X System for us, were pushing it in two days." 8v8 could work in FW if we were talking about complex sizing....but ruling out squads from it and demanding it have a place in FW....god no. When you go solo you take the risk that some random fleet out for blood will pop by and destroy you with incredible ease. That's just how FW is. It's not supposed to be fair, it's not balanced all the time, it requires large scale player participation. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 19	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:30:00 - [405] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Powerh8er wrote: Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b. Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular. Making corp A versus corp B as easy as possible is what PC is for. That is why an incredible amount of work has gone into lowering the barrier to entry for PC while shutting off the farmability. Just because PC has been constantly dumped on and broken for the entire history of this game does not mean we should break FW for most of the community just to make it a PC substitute. I can agree but FW IS NOT PUBLIC CONTRACTS 2. ******-OH! It's Low Sec. You know what that's like mate I know you do OB's and you don't get fair fights. FW should be hard, it should encourage team work, encourage wider militia connections not selfish gameplay. Unlike EVE solo plexing is not possible and it doesn't help in a semi-competitive setting where you are taking up slots other squadded players could be using. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:34:00 - [406] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: FW is not PC and it is not meant to be. Inclined to agree on this point. APEX suits aren't exactly end-game gear, and they're arguably of greater value to newer players than old. Should we put end-game play between APEX suits and the players who'd benefit the most from them? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:35:00 - [407] - Quote thor424 wrote: Shouldn't a game like Dust be competitive enough that a few groups of 16 couldn't run unchecked in a game mode? If the potential rewards are so game breaking why aren't more groups willing to go after it? It just doesn't add up to me. It isn't about the rewards being gamebreaking, nor should that be the only consideration when deciding is a system is robust or not. Part of why I am arguing against the team deploy option is that although it appears on the surface to promote competition, that competition is dependent on two equally skilled and organized groups looking for matches at the same time. I think that everyone can agree that pubs can sometimes be frustrating if you are not q syncing for quality. Being in a short squad, with a team full of muppets can cause much hair pulling and gnashing of teeth at the biblical incompetence one can see from randoms. The biggest issue I foresee is the ability of teams to create non-competitive matches. It wouldn't be difficult, with so few players, to massage the q and get 16 Corp a versus 16 idiots who q'd up, while the B team gets 16 more idiots who queued up. Run into another stack, back out, try again. Rinse and repeat for easy, easy LP. It would seem that some people are getting stuck on the word exploit as a software term rather than the transitive verb usage. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:48:00 - [408] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Unlike EVE solo plexing is not possible and it doesn't help in a semi-competitive setting where you are taking up slots other squadded players could be using. Me bringing my tank into Amarrian matches would be a great benefit to the empire. No mic, not in squad, still an asset. You want me to not support my Glorious Empress because I don't want to listen to a bunch of tryhards squeeling when they get a core locus in the face, but too stupid to report an enemy tank sighting? As a vehicle operator, there is a very small group of people I enjoy playing with. Those people understand vehicle dynamics in the game, and know how to work in coordination with armor. These are the people I trust with my whip, and I will drive it into the most redonkulous situations to help them. Everyone else is so ignorant of how vehicles actually work, that playing with them is a hindrance to my enjoyment of the game. Telling me I have to team form up with a bunch of people who think that my assets are only there to serve their interests and who will abandon me at the first sign of trouble is not conducive to me having a good time. Forcing me to do so in order to get into a not 16 v random stomp just means no supporting the empress for me. All of this is really moot though, unless there is some hidden plan to allow FW players to actually affect the warzone instead of just changing a percentage readout and adding or removing a plex or three from the total count needed to flip a system. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:58:00 - [409] - Quote True Adamance wrote: However you cannot segment them. FW systems are not always important all the time. Serious fights would eventuate pretty much whenever a militia says "Oi **** boys go get X System for us, were pushing it in two days." 8v8 could work in FW if we were talking about complex sizing....but ruling out squads from it and demanding it have a place in FW....god no. When you go solo you take the risk that some random fleet out for blood will pop by and destroy you with incredible ease. That's just how FW is. It's not supposed to be fair, it's not balanced all the time, it requires large scale player participation. As someone who solo'd an IHUB with a dread, I dispute that you need large scale participation to have an impact. You just need balls. That is eve side though. All a set of big brass ones gets you in Dust is looking at the respawn screen going "Well of course, what did I expect attempting to take on 7 people?" Small scale participation in FW eve side also includes things like farmer hunting, medium plex recon camping, and a host of other small gang options, where a gang can have an impact greater than their numbers. In Eve 5 can fight 30, and win. In dust numbers matter, and the zerg horde at flag a will always defeat the lose collection of randoms. The only question is how much do they lose to do it. I did not mean to imply that having a low player count small map option had to be exclusively no squad. You could have a 8 v 8 raid-esque format, both in a squad less and squaded option. I'm not about limiting options at all, I would rather expand things, although given the restrictions of the playerbase, more options are not always best. What I want to know is why we can't join the 24th in game. Would solve a lot of the OB nonsense where the militia doesn't know where the battles are. Maybe add team deploy for only faction members, so that you have to show your commitment to a particular faction to enable it. At least then it would be 16 committed faction players instead of 16 LP farmers. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 871	Posted - 2015.07.03 00:10:00 - [410] - Quote Personally I don't think we should have ANY carebear protections. Limiting squad size in pub to help the poor casuals? I hate it. The only thing casuals deserve (and they should be notified of this at every end of match screen) is more ISK and SP gain for fighting opponents using better gear with more SP levels. Think like the 'You COULD have this much more isk/sp if you had a booster on! ring -- but for their level/average isk used vs opponents avg isk used. Calculate average meta-level spawned per team and give the lower team an ISK/SP bonus based on that. But outside of THAT -- I think FW and up should be a full on free for all. 100% sandbox. Squad sizes? This is just my opinion, but I am in the camp of squad "1 to 16 if I damn well please" size.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 00:20:00 - [411] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: But outside of THAT -- I think FW and up should be a full on free for all. Hadn't considered no-squad as an alternative option to 8-man vs 16-man debate; could make for some interesting FW fights. Can't imagine the Team Deploy crowd getting behind this though. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
PARKOUR PRACTIONER D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3	Posted - 2015.07.03 00:21:00 - [412] - Quote Understand the concerns for both parties but have one thing to say. This, DO IT NOW! WE NEED THIS NOW! is equivalent of a kid stomping his feet and holding his breath cause he doesn't get what he wants immediately. And personal opinion, it will get you NOWHERE. It will be noticed but its more likely to be ignored cause of what i think is childish bickering. Getting your thoughts and concerns out there is important and wanting it done is nothing wrong, but the GIMME GIMME NOW NOW! and trying to rush them will only result in MORE problems. This comment probably will get picked apart or ignored but calling it how i see it. Not everybody is doing this so don't take offense to something that isn't there. One word; patience. Matari IRL xD Matari=Gets SCR BPO. It really doesn't matter what race you are :shrugs: Doesn't comprehend stupid
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:01:00 - [413] - Quote PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: One word; patience. I think over two years waiting for implementation is patience enough. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
PARKOUR PRACTIONER D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:08:00 - [414] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: One word; patience. I think over two years waiting for implementation is patience enough. True, sometimes no one understands the point till ya snap. I think once the new PC changes are finished and more team based balance is achieved, THEN you can talk team deploy. Also, so you're or someone else is losing/lost patience is a reason to take it out on others? Even you got it you'd still have no choice but to wait cause it won't happen overnight. We have way better Devs now then then, so i think it'll work out. Matari IRL xD Matari=Gets SCR BPO. It really doesn't matter what race you are :shrugs: Doesn't comprehend stupid
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 552	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:17:00 - [415] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: thor424 wrote: Shouldn't a game like Dust be competitive enough that a few groups of 16 couldn't run unchecked in a game mode? If the potential rewards are so game breaking why aren't more groups willing to go after it? It just doesn't add up to me. It isn't about the rewards being gamebreaking, nor should that be the only consideration when deciding is a system is robust or not. Part of why I am arguing against the team deploy option is that although it appears on the surface to promote competition, that competition is dependent on two equally skilled and organized groups looking for matches at the same time. I think that everyone can agree that pubs can sometimes be frustrating if you are not q syncing for quality. Being in a short squad, with a team full of muppets can cause much hair pulling and gnashing of teeth at the biblical incompetence one can see from randoms. The biggest issue I foresee is the ability of teams to create non-competitive matches. It wouldn't be difficult, with so few players, to massage the q and get 16 Corp a versus 16 idiots who q'd up, while the B team gets 16 more idiots who queued up. Run into another stack, back out, try again. Rinse and repeat for easy, easy LP. It would seem that some people are getting stuck on the word exploit as a software term rather than the transitive verb usage. I only brought up rewards and exploits because you started going on about it with your buddy Deezy. Most of the people that don't want to fight don't leave battles in FW, they just do what most people do in pubs (stay in redline or ignore objectives). If there is any hope for team play in this game then persistent team play is needed (over 2 years ago).
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 552	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:19:00 - [416] - Quote PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: Kain Spero wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: One word; patience. I think over two years waiting for implementation is patience enough. True, sometimes no one understands the point till ya snap. I think once the new PC changes are finished and more team based balance is achieved, THEN you can talk team deploy. Also, so you're or someone else is losing/lost patience is a reason to take it out on others? Even you got it you'd still have no choice but to wait cause it won't happen overnight. We have way better Devs now then then, so i think it'll work out. PC can't evolve without persistent team play. There's a reason why closed beta vets with corp battle experience set the foundation for the successful PC corps.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 552	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:23:00 - [417] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: But outside of THAT -- I think FW and up should be a full on free for all. Hadn't considered no-squad as an alternative option to 8-man vs 16-man debate; could make for some interesting FW fights. Can't imagine the Team Deploy crowd getting behind this though. If it was an option sure, but I'll never understand why soloist want to COD up Dust when they could just go play one of the many solo FPS games. At least I'll say, why are they vocal about not being overly successful solo in a team based game.
The Attorney General 3	Posted - 2015.07.03 01:31:00 - [418] - Quote thor424 wrote: I only brought up rewards and exploits because you started going on about it with your buddy Deezy. Most of the people that don't want to fight don't leave battles in FW, they just do what most people do in pubs (stay in redline or ignore objectives). If there is any hope for team play in this game then persistent team play is needed (over 2 years ago). I made no mention of rewards, so you need to check your statements. The people who don't want an actual fight are the people in the 16 man team form up. The people who don't want a fight are the same people who q sync pubs all night calling people scrubs when they back out. There are plenty of people in Dust who consider themselves good players, but have literally spent years avoiding any sort of challenging contest. Giving them team deploy allows them to stomp on uncoordinated groups while still maintaining their own illusions of competence. You know them, the guys who are deadweights in a PC, but the most vocal eager scrubs in pubs. The hope for team play isn't on having team deploy in pub matches(which FW essentially is), but rather a compelling competitive end game mode for people to either aspire to play or dominate. Its funny that you mention persistant teamplay as a necessity, which clearly shows you weren't in PC when it started. Battles every hour, 24/7. The burnout from high end competitive play 24/7 destroyed corps and made people throw up their hands at the horrible performance of the game when it mattered. Maybe if you had experienced what a full time war against Nyain San or Imperfects meant you wouldn't be clamoring for it so hard. The luxury of not being at the peak of the game when the war was real I guess. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 02:15:00 - [419] - Quote thor424 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Imp Smash wrote: But outside of THAT -- I think FW and up should be a full on free for all. Hadn't considered no-squad as an alternative option to 8-man vs 16-man debate; could make for some interesting FW fights. Can't imagine the Team Deploy crowd getting behind this though. If it was an option sure, but I'll never understand why soloist want to COD up Dust when they could just go play one of the many solo FPS games. At least I'll say, why are they vocal about not being overly successful solo in a team based game. If any game mode were to be made solo only it'd be Ambush I think. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 03:59:00 - [420] - Quote Not having team deploy isn't going to stop people from Q-syncing, but it may just reduce the amount of people that leave matches in FW whenever they want to q-sync with their friends. I can understand that a lot of people may want to prevent full teams from fighting other full teams but attempting to do so is just going to put an unnecessary barrier in front of the inevitable. If players are going to do it, and they're going to do it en masse (such is the nature of gamers, we want to play with our friends), than trying to stop them is going to lead to failure and it is actually going to cause more problems in an unintentional way. No matter how you look at it, team deploy is the better outcome here. We can't hold player's hands in every game mode and FW is intended, designed, and meant to be competitive - hence why there isn't a match maker attached to it. I can understand and support the justifications for wanting to prevent team deploy in pub matches but in FW there isn't much justification. If players go into FW, they know (or at least, should know) that they are going all out and there aren't any training wheels to help them along. We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?" And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 04:10:00 - [421] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. What if that safety mechanism's sole purpose is to prevent players from sitting in queue indefinitely? Would it be unacceptable to mechanically prevent this type of poor user experience? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.03 04:52:00 - [422] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. What if that safety mechanism's sole purpose is to prevent players from sitting in queue indefinitely? Would it be unacceptable to protect users from this type of poor UX? With this playerbase it's gonna happen either way Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 05:08:00 - [423] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. What if that safety mechanism's sole purpose is to prevent players from sitting in queue indefinitely? Would it be unacceptable to protect users from this type of poor UX? With this playerbase it's gonna happen either way Pretty much. It is a circumstance of a low PCU and that can only ever change with two things: - New player retention - Veteran retention Both of which are two sides of the same coin. I think the loadout progression system will work a lot of wonders as many of the new guys I've tried to bring on with Dust 514 have a perpetual feeling of not knowing what to do next, try as I may to tell them to go their own way. Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?" And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."
DaProphetMuhammed ZionTCO 0	Posted - 2015.07.03 05:13:00 - [424] - Quote I'm just going to say that someone in this thread is a such a whiny ***** that they report people. I guess debate is too much for some soft skinned people here. I bet they want team deploy to prove how hardcore they are though. When you want to sling dirt but can't take it back, that is what makes you a limp wristed bottom feeder. Can't win a debate? Report until they get banned. Scrubs.
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 317	Posted - 2015.07.03 05:34:00 - [425] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: One word; patience. I think over two years waiting for implementation is patience enough. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 10:12:00 - [426] - Quote Ignorance is bliss for the solo playing scrubs. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 396	Posted - 2015.07.03 10:31:00 - [427] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Ignorance is bliss for the solo playing scrubs. There are solo players that dont quit as pussies and there are players that dont want to farm lp but earn them, i know it s hard for you understand this cuz you always talk but not always fight. The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 11:32:00 - [428] - Quote KTM, I think Adipem Nothi put it well that you should just warn solo players what they are about to get into when joining FW. Essentially that It's a more organized mode and it's recommended that you bring a fire team, but you won't be blocked from making a choice for yourself to ignore the warning. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 396	Posted - 2015.07.03 11:54:00 - [429] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: KTM, I think Adipem Nothi put it well that you should just warn solo players what they are about to get into when joining FW. Essentially warn that It's a more organized mode and it's recommended that you bring a fire team, but you won't be blocked from making a choice for yourself to ignore the warning. I am not going to do anything to blueberries, why should i blame 5 mil SP players tryng to get an apex and not you stomping them with a 16 man q-synq? Will you ever take them in your platoon? No! So they have to get stomped anyway, GG kain & co The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 12:36:00 - [430] - Quote Actually our syncs are fairly open. KTM, explain me this though. If 4 our of 5 instant deployment game modes are geared towards solo and small group play why does the 5th need to be as well? Also, if I can make a sync fairly easily now and it'll be even easier with 8 man squads how do you see me wanted to INCREASE the number of syncs that I face as me trying to stomp teams of randoms? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 12:41:00 - [431] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. What if that safety mechanism's sole purpose is to prevent players from sitting in queue indefinitely? Would it be unacceptable to protect users from this type of poor UX? With this playerbase it's gonna happen either way Pretty much. Disagreed. This isn't a "yes or no" wait time situation. There are degrees of wait times. At risk of over-simplification: (A) If I threw 100 nickels and dimes and Heim and asked him to return sets of 25 cents, he'd be able to do so in short order. His "assembly queue" would move at a fast, reliable rate and his rate of output wouldn't be largely affected by adding new 5 cent and 10 cent coins to his pile. (B) But if I threw 100 nickels and dimes and 10 pennies at Heim and asked him to return sets of 32 cents, he'd quickly realize that he's short denomination X or Y. After the first few sets were completed, the remaining partially completed sets would have to wait on hold for their missing denominations to be added to the pile. The "assembly queue" would not move at a fast or reliable rate. As it relates to PCU: Scenario (A) is occasionally reliant upon new coin availability. Scenario (B) is constantly and heavily reliant new coin availability. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 318	Posted - 2015.07.03 12:44:00 - [432] - Quote The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: KTM, I think Adipem Nothi put it well that you should just warn solo players what they are about to get into when joining FW. Essentially warn that It's a more organized mode and it's recommended that you bring a fire team, but you won't be blocked from making a choice for yourself to ignore the warning. I am not going to do anything to blueberries, why should i blame 5 mil SP players tryng to get an apex and not you stomping them with a 16 man q-synq? Will you ever take them in your platoon? No! So they have to get stomped anyway, GG kain & co Quite a few newberries in STF and we bring them into syncs. So, if they're willing to learn and have patience, they're welcome everywhere... Just like anyone else in the game. That point is invalid. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
The KTM DuKe 0uter.Heaven 396	Posted - 2015.07.03 13:21:00 - [433] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Actually our syncs are fairly open. KTM, explain me this though. If 4 our of 5 instant deployment game modes are geared towards solo and small group play why does the 5th need to be as well? Also, if I can make a sync fairly easily now and it'll be even easier with 8 man squads how do you see me wanted to INCREASE the number of syncs that I face as me trying to stomp teams of randoms? It s useless talk to you The official commando points farmer of 0uter.Heaven ; I don't need team deploy for FW.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2015.07.03 13:23:00 - [434] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: thor424 wrote: I only brought up rewards and exploits because you started going on about it with your buddy Deezy. Most of the people that don't want to fight don't leave battles in FW, they just do what most people do in pubs (stay in redline or ignore objectives). If there is any hope for team play in this game then persistent team play is needed (over 2 years ago). I made no mention of rewards, so you need to check your statements. The people who don't want an actual fight are the people in the 16 man team form up. The people who don't want a fight are the same people who q sync pubs all night calling people scrubs when they back out. There are plenty of people in Dust who consider themselves good players, but have literally spent years avoiding any sort of challenging contest. Giving them team deploy allows them to stomp on uncoordinated groups while still maintaining their own illusions of competence. You know them, the guys who are deadweights in a PC, but the most vocal eager scrubs in pubs. The hope for team play isn't on having team deploy in pub matches(which FW essentially is), but rather a compelling competitive end game mode for people to either aspire to play or dominate. Its funny that you mention persistant teamplay as a necessity, which clearly shows you weren't in PC when it started. Battles every hour, 24/7. The burnout from high end competitive play 24/7 destroyed corps and made people throw up their hands at the horrible performance of the game when it mattered. Maybe if you had experienced what a full time war against Nyain San or Imperfects meant you wouldn't be clamoring for it so hard. The luxury of not being at the peak of the game when the war was real I guess. There are a lot of points to hit on there. I am going to ignore most of it. I've been in PC from the very first day. I was in all of the big wars. I'm an abvious, alt. There has never been a persistent way to team deploy. Scheduling a match 24-48 hours away isn't persistence. I've said it before, I think it's too late to revive team play in Dust, I don't think anything can change the pacifist behavior of the majority of our playerbase. But I think for any hope of a future, they have to try and make their best asset shine.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2015.07.03 13:26:00 - [435] - Quote The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Actually our syncs are fairly open. KTM, explain me this though. If 4 our of 5 instant deployment game modes are geared towards solo and small group play why does the 5th need to be as well? Also, if I can make a sync fairly easily now and it'll be even easier with 8 man squads how do you see me wanted to INCREASE the number of syncs that I face as me trying to stomp teams of randoms? It s useless talk to you Show up to the channel and you get in if there's room. I've never, ever heard a player asked to leave to make room for someone.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 559	Posted - 2015.07.03 13:29:00 - [436] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: We need to quit acting as though every game mode needs to have some kind of safety mechanism. What if that safety mechanism's sole purpose is to prevent players from sitting in queue indefinitely? Would it be unacceptable to protect users from this type of poor UX? With this playerbase it's gonna happen either way Pretty much. Disagreed. This isn't a "yes or no" wait time situation. There are degrees of wait times. At risk of over-simplification: (A) If I threw 100 nickels and dimes and Heim and asked him to return sets of 25 cents, he'd be able to do so in short order. His "assembly queue" would move at a fast, reliable rate and his rate of output wouldn't be largely affected by adding new 5 cent and 10 cent coins to his pile. (B) But if I threw 100 nickels and dimes and 10 pennies at Heim and asked him to return sets of 32 cents, he'd quickly realize that he's short denomination X or Y. After the first few sets were completed, the remaining partially completed sets would have to wait on hold for their missing denominations to be added to the pile. The "assembly queue" would not move at a fast or reliable rate. As it relates to PCU: Scenario (A) is occasionally reliant upon coin availability; a minority of sets may wait "on hold" in queue. Scenario (B) is constantly and heavily reliant coin availability; the majority of sets will wait "on hold" in queue. Are you trying to point out how poor the initial spawning of FW is? That new players who jump on at 2 ET US and queue for 10 minutes until scottied just abandon FW altogether?
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 13:50:00 - [437] - Quote The KTM DuKe wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Ignorance is bliss for the solo playing scrubs. There are solo players that dont quit as pussies and there are players that dont want to farm lp but earn them, i know it s hard for you understand this cuz you always talk but not always fight. You mean pub matches where it starts uneven? Not gonna waste time on those matches where its impossible to win. You do exactly the same when you are not getting carried by your squadmembers. Im not taking anyone in OH serious espacially not a recently recruited command point slave like you. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:18:00 - [438] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty much. Disagreed. Imagine that. Adipem Nothi wrote: This isn't a "yes or no" wait time situation. There are degrees of wait times. At risk of over-simplification: (A) If I threw 100 nickels and dimes and Heim and asked him to return sets of 25 cents, he'd be able to do so in short order. His "assembly queue" would move at a fast, reliable rate and his rate of output wouldn't be largely affected by adding new 5 cent and 10 cent coins to his pile. (B) But if I threw 100 nickels and dimes and 10 pennies at Heim and asked him to return sets of 32 cents, he'd quickly realize that he's short denomination X or Y. After the first few sets were completed, the remaining partially completed sets would have to wait on hold for their missing denominations to be added to the pile. The "assembly queue" would not move at a fast or reliable rate. As it relates to PCU: Scenario (A) is occasionally reliant upon coin availability; a minority of sets may wait "on hold" in queue. Scenario (B) is constantly and heavily reliant coin availability; the majority of sets will wait "on hold" in queue. I don't think wait times are what anyone is concerned about here at all. We're already waiting long times, adding another minute or two with which to take a **** or grab a beer isn't going to hurt anyone - especially if they're doing team deploy and chatting it up the whole time. If they were concerned about wait times they wouldn't be queing FW, which has a notoriety for long wait times as it is. But even still that defies the way FW Queing works to begin with, as FW prioritizes squads over solo players. So, with team deploy, theoretically we'd be looking at -less- wait times. Solo players, of course, might see longer wait times but that should be expected if you're queuing FW solo to begin with and, as Kain said, if we give those solo players a notification of what to expect than we're a lot better off. Organized entities get what they want (competitive team deploy without having to wait days, as per PC) and solo players are given better awareness on what to expect. Those same solo players might even be fueling Pub Matches which can never hurt as it would simultaneously reduce wait times in pub matches to begin with while also taking out organized entities from pub matches who would be more likely to fight in FW since squad/team deploy will not be applicable for pub matches. It is a win-win, as far as I'm concerned. Now it is your turn to come up with a rebuttle, because we all know you will Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?" And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 560	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:34:00 - [439] - Quote If loyalty store items were tradable couldn't the lazy solo players just buy the items they want? Then they can proceed to derp up pub matches instead of derping up game modes where people actually play the objectives.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 49	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:52:00 - [440] - Quote thor424 wrote: There are a lot of points to hit on there. I am going to ignore most of it. I've been in PC from the very first day. I was in all of the big wars. I'm an abvious, alt. There has never been a persistent way to team deploy. Scheduling a match 24-48 hours away isn't persistence. I've said it before, I think it's too late to revive team play in Dust, I don't think anything can change the pacifist behavior of the majority of our playerbase. But I think for any hope of a future, they have to try and make their best asset shine. And who is your main? Anyone can say they were in PC at the start, but the groups that were in a persistent war were few and far between. So instead of teaching teamplay, you just want to exclude people who don't meet your standards? Seems legit. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 49	Posted - 2015.07.03 14:53:00 - [441] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: You mean pub matches where it starts uneven? Not gonna waste time on those matches where its impossible to win. You do exactly the same when you are not getting carried by your squadmembers. Im not taking anyone in OH serious espacially not a recently recruited command point slave like you. You don't want to waste time on matches you can't win, but you want to be able to inflict that on others through team deploy. Seems REALLY legit. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 724	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:08:00 - [442] - Quote The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: KTM, I think Adipem Nothi put it well that you should just warn solo players what they are about to get into when joining FW. Essentially warn that It's a more organized mode and it's recommended that you bring a fire team, but you won't be blocked from making a choice for yourself to ignore the warning. I am not going to do anything to blueberries, why should i blame 5 mil SP players tryng to get an apex and not you stomping them with a 16 man q-synq? Will you ever take them in your platoon? No! So they have to get stomped anyway, GG kain & co Bollocks, people have the notion that FW is some predetermined 16 player sync, whereas really it's for the players who can't commit to being on every day (PC) but still want competitive team games ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:08:00 - [443] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: You mean pub matches where it starts uneven? Not gonna waste time on those matches where its impossible to win. You do exactly the same when you are not getting carried by your squadmembers. Im not taking anyone in OH serious espacially not a recently recruited command point slave like you. You don't want to waste time on matches you can't win, but you want to be able to inflict that on others through team deploy. Seems REALLY legit. With uneven matches i mean 6vs15 etc. as we all probs allready experienced. If you are on the receiving end of that pub match you wont win regardless what you do. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:19:00 - [444] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Bollocks, people have the notion that FW is some predetermined 16 player sync, whereas really it's for the players who can't commit to being on every day (PC) but still want competitive team games In case you haven't noticed, the proponents of this want to turn it into 16 man syncs all day. Because rather than duke it out in PC, they want to stay together as a team and play against uncoordinated groups. They are not looking for competitive play, they are looking to create unbalanced matches that they can essentially farm for easy wins, CP, and LP. Their goal is fundamentally uncompetitive. Look at how many blue donut folks are posting as this is the salvation for the game. Do you trust these same people who refused to fight each other for glory to suddenly start being legitimate competition seekers? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:21:00 - [445] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: With uneven matches i mean 6vs15 etc. as we all probs allready experienced. If you are on the receiving end of that pub match you wont win regardless what you do. And unless the q syncers are horrible, 16 in a team versus an 8 squad and 8 randoms is almost an assured win for the 16 in a team deploy. When the 8 squad sees they are overmatched, they back out and its 16 in a team versus 8 randoms and whoever fills in. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:29:00 - [446] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: With uneven matches i mean 6vs15 etc. as we all probs allready experienced. If you are on the receiving end of that pub match you wont win regardless what you do. And unless the q syncers are horrible, 16 in a team versus an 8 squad and 8 randoms is almost an assured win for the 16 in a team deploy. When the 8 squad sees they are overmatched, they back out and its 16 in a team versus 8 randoms and whoever fills in. I can tell you that a 16 man sync guaranteeing victory is completely false. We had a collection of random unsynced squads ((5 NF, 6 B.A.L.A, 3 Hellstorm, 1 Project Killer, and 1 corpless) that ended up going against the State Task Fore q-sync and ended up winning. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:37:00 - [447] - Quote General Mosquito. I want you to answer a couple questions. You realize than I can run a 16 man sync right now with little to no trouble right for hours on end? Secondly, as the number of full teams or large squads in the FW pool raises the probability of a sync facing another sync does what? As you said if we "turn it into 16 man syncs all day" what would the other team deployments be fighting? I would like you to take into account that the team builder for FW prioritizes larger groups when making your assessment of these questions. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 724	Posted - 2015.07.03 15:44:00 - [448] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Bollocks, people have the notion that FW is some predetermined 16 player sync, whereas really it's for the players who can't commit to being on every day (PC) but still want competitive team games In case you haven't noticed, the proponents of this want to turn it into 16 man syncs all day. Because rather than duke it out in PC, they want to stay together as a team and play against uncoordinated groups. They are not looking for competitive play, they are looking to create unbalanced matches that they can essentially farm for easy wins, CP, and LP. Their goal is fundamentally uncompetitive. Look at how many blue donut folks are posting as this is the salvation for the game. Do you trust these same people who refused to fight each other for glory to suddenly start being legitimate competition seekers? So what's stopping them from syncing right now? They already have the tools they need Team deploy is about bringing more players into FW ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 16:13:00 - [449] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: With uneven matches i mean 6vs15 etc. as we all probs allready experienced. If you are on the receiving end of that pub match you wont win regardless what you do. And unless the q syncers are horrible, 16 in a team versus an 8 squad and 8 randoms is almost an assured win for the 16 in a team deploy. When the 8 squad sees they are overmatched, they back out and its 16 in a team versus 8 randoms and whoever fills in. I could aswell claim the very same thing when its 2X8 man squads syncing in FW. Your argument has beeing made invalid without me even have to think for 0.1 sec. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2015.07.03 16:23:00 - [450] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: General Mosquito. I want you to answer a couple questions. You realize than I can run a 16 man sync right now with little to no trouble right for hours on end? Secondly, as the number of full teams or large squads in the FW pool raises the probability of a sync facing another sync does what? As you said if we "turn it into 16 man syncs all day" what would the other team deployments be fighting? I would like you to take into account that the team builder for FW prioritizes larger groups when making your assessment of these questions. Little to no trouble, and yet you are demanding an expenditure of development resources just to make your stomping easier. This is the kain we all know. Go and read post 288, and provide an answer to that method of managing the queue. You never did address that when someone asked you. Instead you went the other way and lashed out because you can't reply to it. We both know how you roll, and I think that the opportunity you had to change that was when someone yesterday told you to man up and talk to me instead of asking around on Skype to please stay out of your thread. Did you man up? Of course not, you went the other way because you can't properly respond without admitting that there is no method of stopping offsetting syncs from farming. At this point, you can have your team deploy. You clearly are willing to go to extreme lengths to ensure uncompetitive gameplay, so why not. It'll be yet another sterling example of how you are willing to throw anyone under the bus to get yours. The best part about this is that the people this will really affect aren't the ones on the forum. Almost every person who comes here is the type of cowardly scrub who you would find more than willing to help you create LP easy mode. Enjoy a sub 2k player count Kain, you have been working so hard to get it down over the years, only a little further to go! 6 months more of stomping and you guys can pretend to have won dust. This will probably be my last post after you report it, because we both know you can't get into a discussion on this subject. Its ok though, when that happens it will be my personal validation that you intend to farm the crap out of FW, because if you could defend your position you would instead of being the report monkey. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 16:29:00 - [451] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Bollocks, people have the notion that FW is some predetermined 16 player sync, whereas really it's for the players who can't commit to being on every day (PC) but still want competitive team games In case you haven't noticed, the proponents of this want to turn it into 16 man syncs all day. Because rather than duke it out in PC, they want to stay together as a team and play against uncoordinated groups. They are not looking for competitive play, they are looking to create unbalanced matches that they can essentially farm for easy wins, CP, and LP. Their goal is fundamentally uncompetitive. Look at how many blue donut folks are posting as this is the salvation for the game. Do you trust these same people who refused to fight each other for glory to suddenly start being legitimate competition seekers? Would be an interesting theory, if there were any truth to it. You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Despite this game being - quite literally - slated, designed, and marketed a team-based tactical shooter. You are literally saying that everyone who plays this game only wants Team Deploy in a one-sided, selfish display of superiority over others despite knowing full and well that Team Deploy applies to both sides. Yet, if you actually played FW... You'd see that, frequently, teams Q-synch against each other, sometimes repeatedly over the course of several matches... Lucent Echelon, State Task Force, Negative-Feedback, etc -FREQUENTLY- Q-synch and fight against one another. We don't back out at the first sign of a q-synch on the enemy team (though we have seen entire corporations of 12+ players leave the battle on the warbarge whenever they see us xD) because we WANT more competitive matches. Hate to break your heart but redlining the enemy team every match is boring as hell. We want more close matches. We want the rush and adrenaline of "maybe losing" and we want to fight hard for our victories. But most of all, we want to practice FOR those competitive matches (I.E: PC). We can't do that against a group of randoms, so advocating for that is pointless. Some people ask us, "Where do you call home?" And we say, "Home is where the bullets fly. Where the shells land."
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 50	Posted - 2015.07.03 17:03:00 - [452] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Not everyone. But certain people and corps most definitely. Bringing in a robust system that allows team deploy would be fine. Bringing in one that is easily gamed is silly, because there will be groups who take advantage. That no one wants to admit this, and instead pretends that those persons who have a history of either boosting, exploiting or otherwise engaging in uncompetitive activities(blue donut bros!) are suddenly going to develop a sense of integrity is frankly absurd. Will be hilarious when they give it to you and it plays out how I say it will. I'll necro this thread when it does, to laugh heartily at all you scrubs. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 576	Posted - 2015.07.03 17:45:00 - [453] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Bollocks, people have the notion that FW is some predetermined 16 player sync, whereas really it's for the players who can't commit to being on every day (PC) but still want competitive team games In case you haven't noticed, the proponents of this want to turn it into 16 man syncs all day. Because rather than duke it out in PC, they want to stay together as a team and play against uncoordinated groups. They are not looking for competitive play, they are looking to create unbalanced matches that they can essentially farm for easy wins, CP, and LP. Their goal is fundamentally uncompetitive. Look at how many blue donut folks are posting as this is the salvation for the game. Do you trust these same people who refused to fight each other for glory to suddenly start being legitimate competition seekers? Who said anything about not doing PC? Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 17:51:00 - [454] - Quote thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 17:57:00 - [455] - Quote @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 580	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:00:00 - [456] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? He has no idea. He doesn't play Dust. He just saw another cuunt posting in this thread (you) and his vag started spewing nonsense on the forums. His vag actually types. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:04:00 - [457] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? He has no idea. He doesn't play Dust. He just saw another cuunt posting in this thread (you) and his vag started spewing nonsense on the forums. His vag actually types. Oh good so running around calling everyone "cuunts" when you have done nothing but make yourself look like an idiot is how you make yourself feel good. That's good for you man, I am glad you found a vent for your prepubescent frustrations. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:05:00 - [458] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Not everyone. But certain people and corps most definitely. Bringing in a robust system that allows team deploy would be fine. Bringing in one that is easily gamed is silly, because there will be groups who take advantage. That no one wants to admit this, and instead pretends that those persons who have a history of either boosting, exploiting or otherwise engaging in uncompetitive activities(blue donut bros!) are suddenly going to develop a sense of integrity is frankly absurd. Will be hilarious when they give it to you and it plays out how I say it will. I'll necro this thread when it does, to laugh heartily at all you scrubs. How is it easily gamed...? How does one form a 16 man team and deploy to FW in a way that consistently pits them against non-que-synched teams without constantly re-queing until they get that one magical match that they know isn't que-synched? How do they know that they aren't going against a que-synched team when entities like State Task Force and Lucent Echelon recruit team members on a Factional Loyalty basis and not on a corporation basis (arguably the only way you'd know, just by looking at the player list). Once you answer that, is that hypothesis and theory (of which it will always be because there is no way to prove otherwise) worth NOT allowing players to team deploy, if they are just going to do it anyway using current in-game mechanics? As far as boosting and exploiting, CCP has ways of tracking this. If you think you can get a team of thirty two players into an FW match for the sole purpose of boosting, good luck making those stats look in any way believable. Good luck convincing thirty two people to not talk about it outside of that group. Good luck finding thirty two people who wouldn't do it repeatedly and leave the tell tell signs of boosting. Even still, we can't punish everyone for the sake of a handful of boosters. There are more responsible players than there are not and there is no reason to make their lives hell because of something that could be fixed by a different means. And finally, who are these magical unicorn players that you speak of that boost en masse as you say? And to what end? So they can temporarily hit the leaderboards? So that they can complete their daily missions faster? So that they can cap out their SP faster? This isn't making them better players. They're not getting ISK from it. Their LP gains are predetermined and capped. There is literally no gain to boosting in FW save for SP and meta-stats which have absolutely no value other than personal accomplishment. Those are some of the considerations that need to be taken into account if we're seriously going to prevent team deploy over such isolated, minute, and largely irrelevant cases. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:06:00 - [459] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 580	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:15:00 - [460] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? He has no idea. He doesn't play Dust. He just saw another cuunt posting in this thread (you) and his vag started spewing nonsense on the forums. His vag actually types. Oh good so running around calling everyone "cuunts" when you have done nothing but make yourself look like an idiot is how you make yourself feel good. That's good for you man, I am glad you found a vent for your prepubescent frustrations. It's clear you idiots are going to get your way so now I'm **** posting. Congrats Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 580	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:16:00 - [461] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:16:00 - [462] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Not everyone. But certain people and corps most definitely. Bringing in a robust system that allows team deploy would be fine. Bringing in one that is easily gamed is silly, because there will be groups who take advantage. That no one wants to admit this, and instead pretends that those persons who have a history of either boosting, exploiting or otherwise engaging in uncompetitive activities(blue donut bros!) are suddenly going to develop a sense of integrity is frankly absurd. Will be hilarious when they give it to you and it plays out how I say it will. I'll necro this thread when it does, to laugh heartily at all you scrubs. How is it easily gamed...? How does one form a 16 man team and deploy to FW in a way that consistently pits them against non-que-synched teams without constantly re-queing until they get that one magical match that they know isn't que-synched? How do they know that they aren't going against a que-synched team when entities like State Task Force and Lucent Echelon recruit team members on a Factional Loyalty basis and not on a corporation basis (arguably the only way you'd know, just by looking at the player list). Once you answer that, is that hypothesis and theory (of which it will always be because there is no way to prove otherwise) worth NOT allowing players to team deploy, if they are just going to do it anyway using current in-game mechanics? As far as boosting and exploiting, CCP has ways of tracking this. If you think you can get a team of thirty two players into an FW match for the sole purpose of boosting, good luck making those stats look in any way believable. Good luck convincing thirty two people to not talk about it outside of that group. Good luck finding thirty two people who wouldn't do it repeatedly and leave the tell tell signs of boosting. Even still, we can't punish everyone for the sake of a handful of boosters. There are more responsible players than there are not and there is no reason to make their lives hell because of something that could be fixed by a different means. And finally, who are these magical unicorn players that you speak of that boost en masse as you say? And to what end? So they can temporarily hit the leaderboards? So that they can complete their daily missions faster? So that they can cap out their SP faster? This isn't making them better players. They're not getting ISK from it. Their LP gains are predetermined and capped. There is literally no gain to boosting in FW save for SP and meta-stats which have absolutely no value other than personal accomplishment. Those are some of the considerations that need to be taken into account if we're seriously going to prevent team deploy over such isolated, minute, and largely irrelevant cases. As far as how it is easily gamed that is quite simple. 16 people in one squad and one of their friends on comms opening a squad in squad finder to make sure to serve up a nice uncoordinated squad to his friends. This may sound a bit far fetched to some but we already have people that leave battle at any sign of opposition to protect their stats so I do not think it is going too far to say they would intentionally try to setup some cannon fodder for themself. One may also argue that this is already possible and that 8 + 8 also makes this easier which would be very true but it is about finding a balance. 8 + 8 simply has less possibility of breaking team builder, more possibility of syncs not even being needed, is slightly more difficult than full 16 deploy to farm meaning it is easier for CCP to track those doing it because they stick out like a sore thumb, and gives everyone a chance to participate as oppose to dropping control of FW firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group which is what PC is suppose to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:18:00 - [463] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass More prepubescent spewing. Keep showing off the thought processes of those who support this so everyone can be clear that you can not think past anything but your self and maybe the few people you want to exploit the game with. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:24:00 - [464] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass More prepubescent spewing. Keep showing off the thought processes of those who support this so everyone can be clear that you can not think past anything but your self and maybe the few people you want to exploit the game with. You are an idiot. I love this game and pushed for mechanics to open up the higher levels of Dust to the population WHILE a director of the most active corp in the history of Dust. These changes would have given Molon, Dark Legion, KEQ, Pheonix Fed, and all the others sooo much content. That has been what's missing. It's the reason why these corps are all dead. There's no reason to be in a corp. They couldn't compete with the small elite groups. Persistent team play was the only way for those types of corps to hone the skill necessary to have any hope of overtaking the small elite corps in PC. I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to see that. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:28:00 - [465] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass More prepubescent spewing. Keep showing off the thought processes of those who support this so everyone can be clear that you can not think past anything but your self and maybe the few people you want to exploit the game with. You are an idiot. I love this game and pushed for mechanics to open up the higher levels of Dust to the population WHILE a director of the most active corp in the history of Dust. These changes would have given Molon, Dark Legion, KEQ, Pheonix Fed, and all the others sooo much content. That has been what's missing. It's the reason why these corps are all dead. There's no reason to be in a corp. They couldn't compete with the small elite groups. Persistent team play was the only way for those types of corps to hone the skill necessary to have any hope of overtaking the small elite corps in PC. I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to see that. What all of you seem to want to avoid in this discussion is that 8 + 8 is a BUFF to team play without all of the drawbacks. There is nothing about 8 + 8 that stops full 16 man team play while it does make exploits slightly more difficult so the real question becomes what are you fighting for here. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:32:00 - [466] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Not everyone. But certain people and corps most definitely. Bringing in a robust system that allows team deploy would be fine. Bringing in one that is easily gamed is silly, because there will be groups who take advantage. That no one wants to admit this, and instead pretends that those persons who have a history of either boosting, exploiting or otherwise engaging in uncompetitive activities(blue donut bros!) are suddenly going to develop a sense of integrity is frankly absurd. Will be hilarious when they give it to you and it plays out how I say it will. I'll necro this thread when it does, to laugh heartily at all you scrubs. How is it easily gamed...? How does one form a 16 man team and deploy to FW in a way that consistently pits them against non-que-synched teams without constantly re-queing until they get that one magical match that they know isn't que-synched? How do they know that they aren't going against a que-synched team when entities like State Task Force and Lucent Echelon recruit team members on a Factional Loyalty basis and not on a corporation basis (arguably the only way you'd know, just by looking at the player list). Once you answer that, is that hypothesis and theory (of which it will always be because there is no way to prove otherwise) worth NOT allowing players to team deploy, if they are just going to do it anyway using current in-game mechanics? As far as boosting and exploiting, CCP has ways of tracking this. If you think you can get a team of thirty two players into an FW match for the sole purpose of boosting, good luck making those stats look in any way believable. Good luck convincing thirty two people to not talk about it outside of that group. Good luck finding thirty two people who wouldn't do it repeatedly and leave the tell tell signs of boosting. Even still, we can't punish everyone for the sake of a handful of boosters. There are more responsible players than there are not and there is no reason to make their lives hell because of something that could be fixed by a different means. And finally, who are these magical unicorn players that you speak of that boost en masse as you say? And to what end? So they can temporarily hit the leaderboards? So that they can complete their daily missions faster? So that they can cap out their SP faster? This isn't making them better players. They're not getting ISK from it. Their LP gains are predetermined and capped. There is literally no gain to boosting in FW save for SP and meta-stats which have absolutely no value other than personal accomplishment. Those are some of the considerations that need to be taken into account if we're seriously going to prevent team deploy over such isolated, minute, and largely irrelevant cases. As far as how it is easily gamed that is quite simple. 16 people in one squad and one of their friends on comms opening a squad in squad finder to make sure to serve up a nice uncoordinated squad to his friends. This may sound a bit far fetched to some but we already have people that leave battle at any sign of opposition to protect their stats so I do not think it is going too far to say they would intentionally try to setup some cannon fodder for themself. One may also argue that this is already possible and that 8 + 8 also makes this easier which would be very true but it is about finding a balance. 8 + 8 simply has less possibility of breaking team builder, more possibility of syncs not even being needed, is slightly more difficult than full 16 deploy to farm meaning it is easier for CCP to track those doing it because they stick out like a sore thumb, and gives everyone a chance to participate as oppose to dropping control of FW firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group which is what PC is suppose to be. So your concern isn't boosting or 'exploiting' but AWOXing? Welcome to New Eden? I mean, that sucks for them, but it is entirely allowed and I'd even encourage it given that there really isn't enough space drama going on in this opera xD Again, these fears are unfounded as they have no basis or proof. It is merely a hypothetical, extremely unlikely situation. If it really did become a problem, or were a problem, then people would instantly be TKing the one guy from Negative-Feedback on their their team when the rest of us are on the other side, just as an example. It is like the guy running a sniper rifle in FW. How often do you see that anymore? Players learn based on behavior and the unanimous hatred of snipers has forced them out of the game mode almost entirely. And why -shouldn't- FW go 'firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group'? That is the nature of competitive. Are you saying that we shouldn't allow organized, competitive groups and entities because it isn't fair to the other team? It was never meant to be fair. If it were, it'd have a match maker. The very nature of FW is that it -IS- competitive and that is what many players find appealing about it. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:34:00 - [467] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: What all of you seem to want to avoid in this discussion is that 8 + 8 is a BUFF to team play without all of the drawbacks. There is nothing about 8 + 8 that stops full 16 man team play while it does make exploits slightly more difficult so the real question becomes what are you fighting for here. Again, why -SHOULDN'T- team play be a thing in what is Dust 514's most competitive game-mode outside of PC? Are you saying that non-PC entities shouldn't be allowed a competitive experience? That teamplay shouldn't be allowed? Any 'exploit' you have mentioned here could just as easily be fielded by an 8+8 group, or a 6+6+4 group, or a 4+4+4+4 group. Making it a hassle for them isn't going to stop them from doing what they were already going to do, it is just going to make responsible players have to deal with the hassle in order to play with their comrades. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:37:00 - [468] - Quote Deezy, if I'd known I'd need to read all the stupid **** you would post in this thread I would have never posted in it. I think my brain actually lost 15% of its efficacy reading your stupidity. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:44:00 - [469] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So your concern isn't boosting or 'exploiting' but AWOXing? Welcome to New Eden? I mean, that sucks for them, but it is entirely allowed and I'd even encourage it given that there really isn't enough space drama going on in this opera xD Again, these fears are unfounded as they have no basis or proof. It is merely a hypothetical, extremely unlikely situation. If it really did become a problem, or were a problem, then people would instantly be TKing the one guy from Negative-Feedback on their their team when the rest of us are on the other side, just as an example. It is like the guy running a sniper rifle in FW. How often do you see that anymore? Players learn based on behavior and the unanimous hatred of snipers has forced them out of the game mode almost entirely. And why -shouldn't- FW go 'firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group'? That is the nature of competitive. Are you saying that we shouldn't allow organized, competitive groups and entities because it isn't fair to the other team? It was never meant to be fair. If it were, it'd have a match maker. The very nature of FW is that it -IS- competitive and that is what many players find appealing about it. AWOXing newbs is a concern yes but as you stated very much a part of New Eden. My biggest concern is when instead of that other 16 man squad being randoms it is a second corp squad meaning that anyone with 32 people will have a very easy time taking part in the same types of activity that went on behind closed doors on PC districts where the big guys were capping out all at once with a 1 day booster going. Now that we have triple stacking boosters and instant SP boosts at the end of match screen it would be quite easy for anyone with 32 people to gain nearly 10 million SP in about 7 hours while also getting very close to a totally free apex suit for 16 of those 32 people. I can not say the exact amount of time it would take but based on the assumption of diminished SP happening after 7500 WP and the fact that when both are syncing against each other there is zero wait time it would take roughly 7 hours to cap out the entire pool for the week with as much boosts as possible on top of it. Obviously that would have to be adjusted for what the actual payout cap is set at but the maximum time it could take if the number was more in the 5000 area would be about 10 hours. I have avoided stating this but based on what I can figure with squad priorities and the 8 + 8 formation Q syncs are actually going to become slightly more difficult thanks to the nice even numbers. If I am correct that means that anyone who wants to sync will have to run squads sizes now of 6/6/4. This gives a variable for CCP to search by to catch frequent boosters. By simple pulling up the matches where that was the squad formation on both sides and checking the WP totals boosters are incredibly easy to catch. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:52:00 - [470] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So your concern isn't boosting or 'exploiting' but AWOXing? Welcome to New Eden? I mean, that sucks for them, but it is entirely allowed and I'd even encourage it given that there really isn't enough space drama going on in this opera xD Again, these fears are unfounded as they have no basis or proof. It is merely a hypothetical, extremely unlikely situation. If it really did become a problem, or were a problem, then people would instantly be TKing the one guy from Negative-Feedback on their their team when the rest of us are on the other side, just as an example. It is like the guy running a sniper rifle in FW. How often do you see that anymore? Players learn based on behavior and the unanimous hatred of snipers has forced them out of the game mode almost entirely. And why -shouldn't- FW go 'firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group'? That is the nature of competitive. Are you saying that we shouldn't allow organized, competitive groups and entities because it isn't fair to the other team? It was never meant to be fair. If it were, it'd have a match maker. The very nature of FW is that it -IS- competitive and that is what many players find appealing about it. AWOXing newbs is a concern yes but as you stated very much a part of New Eden. My biggest concern is when instead of that other 16 man squad being randoms it is a second corp squad meaning that anyone with 32 people will have a very easy time taking part in the same types of activity that went on behind closed doors on PC districts where the big guys were capping out all at once with a 1 day booster going. Now that we have triple stacking boosters and instant SP boosts at the end of match screen it would be quite easy for anyone with 32 people to gain nearly 10 million SP in about 7 hours while also getting very close to a totally free apex suit for 16 of those 32 people. I can not say the exact amount of time it would take but based on the assumption of diminished SP happening after 7500 WP and the fact that when both are syncing against each other there is zero wait time it would take roughly 7 hours to cap out the entire pool for the week with as much boosts as possible on top of it. Obviously that would have to be adjusted for what the actual payout cap is set at but the maximum time it could take if the number was more in the 5000 area would be about 10 hours. I have avoided stating this but based on what I can figure with squad priorities and the 8 + 8 formation Q syncs are actually going to become slightly more difficult thanks to the nice even numbers. If I am correct that means that anyone who wants to sync will have to run squads sizes now of 6/6/4. This gives a variable for CCP to search by to catch frequent boosters. By simple pulling up the matches where that was the squad formation on both sides and checking the WP totals boosters are incredibly easy to catch. Sure, but CCP can do that anyway and already have, regardless of the squad sizes. They keep logs of each match, henceforth why they ask us to help narrow down which match we experience issues in rather than provide, say, a video recording of the entire match itself. And, let us assume that these 32 guys (because that is what you'd have to have if you wanted to reduce the likeliness of interference and being caught by a third party) -did- run seven straight hours in some crazy attempt to literally spend an entire work day capping out by boosting. Assuming the boredom didn't kill them, they'd have to fight the battlefinder -the entire seven hour duration- to make sure that they consistently got in the same matches and not a single one of them could leave. Otherwise, they'd have other players that you can be -damn certain- would be interfering with their activities and likely posting about it here on the forums. I dunno about you, but I can barely stomach waiting an hour for a PC match to start up let alone spending seven hours hacking/re-hacking an installation. The very concept wears on my patience and I doubt anyone else has the patience for it. But as said, to what end? So they can get an APEX suit that they could have just as easily bought with ISK? So that they could hit their SP cap -with literally no competition at all-? For what, though? So that they could continue boosting with it? 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:17:00 - [471] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, but CCP can do that anyway and already have, regardless of the squad sizes. They keep logs of each match, henceforth why they ask us to help narrow down which match we experience issues in rather than provide, say, a video recording of the entire match itself. And, let us assume that these 32 guys (because that is what you'd have to have if you wanted to reduce the likeliness of interference and being caught by a third party) -did- run seven straight hours in some crazy attempt to literally spend an entire work day capping out by boosting. Assuming the boredom didn't kill them, they'd have to fight the battlefinder -the entire seven hour duration- to make sure that they consistently got in the same matches and not a single one of them could leave. Otherwise, they'd have other players that you can be -damn certain- would be interfering with their activities and likely posting about it here on the forums. I dunno about you, but I can barely stomach waiting an hour for a PC match to start up let alone spending seven hours hacking/re-hacking an installation. The very concept wears on my patience and I doubt anyone else has the patience for it. But as said, to what end? So they can get an APEX suit that they could have just as easily bought with ISK? So that they could hit their SP cap -with literally no competition at all-? For what, though? So that they could continue boosting with it? With 16 man deploy they would not be fighting anything which is why I am fight for keeping it to 8 + 8. Boredom is not really a defense because we have watched the same activity take place on empty PC districts and obviously they do not have to do the full amount in one shot. Is it okay for 32 people to grab 3 - 4 million SP totally for free in just a couple of hours? The new PC system is also highly based on corp activity which means this farming behavior could be used to complete all of the non AUR missions for all 32 of their members giving them a huge amount of command points which means that they could feasibly use an alt each time to farm up new command points to launch an unlimited number of free raids every day. Making it so incredibly easy to manipulate the hell out of FW will screw up the rest of the game just like how PC did before. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:20:00 - [472] - Quote ^ it's amazing a brain can be that stupid, yet function a computer and communicate with others Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:27:00 - [473] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, but CCP can do that anyway and already have, regardless of the squad sizes. They keep logs of each match, henceforth why they ask us to help narrow down which match we experience issues in rather than provide, say, a video recording of the entire match itself. And, let us assume that these 32 guys (because that is what you'd have to have if you wanted to reduce the likeliness of interference and being caught by a third party) -did- run seven straight hours in some crazy attempt to literally spend an entire work day capping out by boosting. Assuming the boredom didn't kill them, they'd have to fight the battlefinder -the entire seven hour duration- to make sure that they consistently got in the same matches and not a single one of them could leave. Otherwise, they'd have other players that you can be -damn certain- would be interfering with their activities and likely posting about it here on the forums. I dunno about you, but I can barely stomach waiting an hour for a PC match to start up let alone spending seven hours hacking/re-hacking an installation. The very concept wears on my patience and I doubt anyone else has the patience for it. But as said, to what end? So they can get an APEX suit that they could have just as easily bought with ISK? So that they could hit their SP cap -with literally no competition at all-? For what, though? So that they could continue boosting with it? With 16 man deploy they would not be fighting anything which is why I am fight for keeping it to 8 + 8. Boredom is not really a defense because we have watched the same activity take place on empty PC districts and obviously they do not have to do the full amount in one shot. Is it okay for 32 people to grab 3 - 4 million SP totally for free in just a couple of hours? The new PC system is also highly based on corp activity which means this farming behavior could be used to complete all of the non AUR missions for all 32 of their members giving them a huge amount of command points which means that they could feasibly use an alt each time to farm up new command points to launch an unlimited number of free raids every day. Making it so incredibly easy to manipulate the hell out of FW will screw up the rest of the game just like how PC did before. I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:27:00 - [474] - Quote thor424 wrote: ^ it's amazing a brain can be that stupid, yet function a computer and communicate with others Tell me one place where I am wrong in the fact that it unlocks massive exploits that even break the PC system which so much work has been put into building. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:29:00 - [475] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, but CCP can do that anyway and already have, regardless of the squad sizes. They keep logs of each match, henceforth why they ask us to help narrow down which match we experience issues in rather than provide, say, a video recording of the entire match itself. And, let us assume that these 32 guys (because that is what you'd have to have if you wanted to reduce the likeliness of interference and being caught by a third party) -did- run seven straight hours in some crazy attempt to literally spend an entire work day capping out by boosting. Assuming the boredom didn't kill them, they'd have to fight the battlefinder -the entire seven hour duration- to make sure that they consistently got in the same matches and not a single one of them could leave. Otherwise, they'd have other players that you can be -damn certain- would be interfering with their activities and likely posting about it here on the forums. I dunno about you, but I can barely stomach waiting an hour for a PC match to start up let alone spending seven hours hacking/re-hacking an installation. The very concept wears on my patience and I doubt anyone else has the patience for it. But as said, to what end? So they can get an APEX suit that they could have just as easily bought with ISK? So that they could hit their SP cap -with literally no competition at all-? For what, though? So that they could continue boosting with it? With 16 man deploy they would not be fighting anything which is why I am fight for keeping it to 8 + 8. Boredom is not really a defense because we have watched the same activity take place on empty PC districts and obviously they do not have to do the full amount in one shot. Is it okay for 32 people to grab 3 - 4 million SP totally for free in just a couple of hours? The new PC system is also highly based on corp activity which means this farming behavior could be used to complete all of the non AUR missions for all 32 of their members giving them a huge amount of command points which means that they could feasibly use an alt each time to farm up new command points to launch an unlimited number of free raids every day. Making it so incredibly easy to manipulate the hell out of FW will screw up the rest of the game just like how PC did before. I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. No, let's continue to hold the game back and make it impossible for groups to become proficient in team play so we can guarantee that all the dev work for PC 2.0 is wasted. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:30:00 - [476] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: ^ it's amazing a brain can be that stupid, yet function a computer and communicate with others Tell me one place where I am wrong in the fact that it unlocks massive exploits that even break the PC system which so much work has been put into building. Honestly, I can't refute things that are so stupid that I can't see where they are coming from. It's like reasoning with a really drunk, crazy homeless person. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:32:00 - [477] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. We have seen how far that even certain people fighting their ass off to get team deploy will go to exploit the game. Quote: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana Yet we are sitting here talking about shoving through a system which just like the previous version of PC allows people to make tons of risk free money and even get unique items out of it depending on what actually ends up in the DK store. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 581	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:35:00 - [478] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. We have seen how far that even certain people fighting their ass off to get team deploy will go to exploit the game. Quote: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana Yet we are sitting here talking about shoving through a system which just like the previous version of PC allows people to make tons of risk free money and even get unique items out of it depending on what actually ends up in the DK store. People made tons of ISK in PC because they were unchecked idiot. You could dominate PC with a few teams with the mechanics. Nobody had the ISK to attempt to break through every 24 hours, one redline at a time. Lack of persistent team play guaranteed than nobody could contend with them. And it created the pacifist, ***** mentality that plagues Dust. Is Attorney General the biggest cuunt in Dust?
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:37:00 - [479] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. We have seen how far that even certain people fighting their ass off to get team deploy will go to exploit the game. Quote: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana Yet we are sitting here talking about shoving through a system which just like the previous version of PC allows people to make tons of risk free money and even get unique items out of it depending on what actually ends up in the DK store. It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:45:00 - [480] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:46:00 - [481] - Quote Your worst case scenario with 32 people agreeing to farm is just stupid as hell. First off you need to find 32 people who are willing to do nothing at all and if they go ahead and boost WP there is the danger that they get stright out banned for that. It is boring and not worth to get banned for. People want to play the game and not farm it to death and you cannot compare it to PC farming since PC farming required 0 player input and was automated. If you have no clue about it i shall enlighten you how PC farming worked out before: -corp claims district -district produces clones till it hits the max capacity -clones that are produced that exceed the districts capacity where sold automatically without any player input -ISK goes to the corp wallet Its impossible to compare that PC 1.0 mechanic to FW where you have to be present and need to move here and there to not get kicked from the match. The blue donout was formed to show that CCP did something horribly wrong with the passive ISK generation. We are getting ISK generation back but you will have to lower your clonecount by doing so. So stop comparing FW where you need to play actively to PC 1.0 where you got ISK by doing nothing at all, where you didnt even had to log into the game. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 20:27:00 - [482] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 22:14:00 - [483] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Okay I understand now. Go drink some more of the Kool-Aid. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.03 22:36:00 - [484] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Okay I understand now. Go drink some more of the Kool-Aid. A good friend once told me something that is relevant here: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." I'll let you sit and think on that for a while. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 22:40:00 - [485] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Okay I understand now. Go drink some more of the Kool-Aid. A good friend once told me something that is relevant here: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." I'll let you sit and think on that for a while. And if you can make billions of ISK and **** on an entire community in the process of trying to draw attention to the problem then why not. Oh and that makes it okay to fight for putting more exploits in the game? How long will that squeaky wheel pour ISK out to people before it gets the grease? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
PARKOUR PRACTIONER D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 3	Posted - 2015.07.03 23:03:00 - [486] - Quote Got something to say. If we're going to get team deploy, whats wrong with implementing 8-man fireteams first? Here's my thoughts, 1) We will actually see how it works /doesn't work 2) We'll definitely get more competition if 8v8 is matched up properly 3) We could just have 8-man fireteams and be done with it. As long as its evenly matched in 8v8 every time it should work, or maybe 10-man teams. Not everyone should have no choice but to roll with another 15 people just to play a FW. It's not fair to the little man but they dont exist right? So have it at 8-man or 10-man teams and leave a little leway? for the solo or small squad players that surprisingly want to play FW too. Personally its not easy for me to socialize, so if i want to play MFW i should be crammed into a team with 15 other people? No. So the soloists should just stay in pubs right? They're over there and the serious guys over here? Uh-uh, there's nothing wrong with that. I think i have a solution to both problems -+10-man teams room for lots of competition and room for those who want a more competition setting without being crammed into your either a FW player or a pub player bracket type thing. And it'll decrease wait time that FW is infamous for. -+You seem to be forgetting about or just trying to stomp out the little guy other have been waiting 2+ years or longer Matari IRL xD Matari=Gets SCR BPO. It really doesn't matter what race you are :shrugs: Doesn't comprehend stupid
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.04 01:45:00 - [487] - Quote Parkour 4 out of 5 instant game modes are having squad size reduced for the express reason of helping the little guy. It isn't unreasonable to ask that one out of 5 instant deployment game modes be more geared towards teams. Also FW will still be 16 v 16 the addition is currently just adding 8 man squads which will make it easier for current q-syncs to operate but it won't democratize the system of team deploy to those without corp channels or custom player channels voicing a sync. Social groups are one of Dust's strongest points and easing the ability for those not in the know about syncing to run a full team instantly would strengthen those social groups which increases player retention. Also, you forget that a solo player wiil be able to just open up squad finder and join a platoon or start one themselves. Last, you understand we have 16 man syncs right now correct? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:05:00 - [488] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:08:00 - [489] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:46:00 - [490] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. What advantage? Your are conflicting yourself more and more, first the complain about the huge ISK generation in PC 1.0 which made alot of people rich and now you complain that this could happend aswell in FW. If you havent noticed the rich players from PC 1.0 dont need LP to play PC. So stop coming up with this nonesense. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:52:00 - [491] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. What advantage? Your are conflicting yourself more and more, first the complain about the huge ISK generation in PC 1.0 which made alot of people rich and now you complain that this could happend aswell in FW. If you havent noticed the rich players from PC 1.0 dont need LP to play PC. So stop coming up with this nonesense. No my point is that FW will be a giant farmville for command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.04 10:25:00 - [492] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. You predict this apocalypse yet fail to cite how 8+8 is comparatively different than having team deploy for those groups that are already organized? You then ignore that CCP has policies against boosting, already has code in place to limit the practice, and then ignore that this exploit you carry on about actually involves 32 people having to do something extremely boring. I'm sorry but your argument doesn't hold water and is grasping at straws at best. Especially given restricting team deploy doesn't do anything to prevent your fantasy land cries of the sky is falling. If you are going to come up with an argument the least you could do is use something that actually has logic behind it rather than loaded with paranoia tied to your bias and dislike of certain entities. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 11:08:00 - [493] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. What advantage? Your are conflicting yourself more and more, first the complain about the huge ISK generation in PC 1.0 which made alot of people rich and now you complain that this could happend aswell in FW. If you havent noticed the rich players from PC 1.0 dont need LP to play PC. So stop coming up with this nonesense. No my point is that FW will be a giant farmville for command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. lol what has this to do with command points? Command points are going to be generated by the players daylie missions and if you havent noticed those can be done at any time in a pub match. You wont need FW to earn command points and there are only 10 missions per day. Before you muppet run to your PS3 and count the missions avaible currently i can allready tell you that we have 14 missions due to the 4 that have beeing added from the event. You are searching for more straws cause each argument you make is beeing made invalid. You ramble about randoms should play with vets, that the matchmaker couldnt handle 16 man squads, that FW would become farmville and now you try to pull the CP card. Heck i usually can accomplish at least 7 out of 10 missions by playing casually and the way to go to get more command points is by recruiting more players. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.07.04 11:19:00 - [494] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: No my point is that FW will be a giant farmville for command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. How so? Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.04 11:44:00 - [495] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: deezy dabest wrote: No my point is that FW will be a giant farmville for command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. How so? By jumping up and down on his chair yelling "DONT WANT, DONT WANT, DONT WANT"! Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 611	Posted - 2015.07.05 04:21:00 - [496] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. What advantage? Your are conflicting yourself more and more, first the complain about the huge ISK generation in PC 1.0 which made alot of people rich and now you complain that this could happend aswell in FW. If you havent noticed the rich players from PC 1.0 dont need LP to play PC. So stop coming up with this nonesense. FW will be a huge tool for corps to generate command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. FIFY
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 611	Posted - 2015.07.05 04:25:00 - [497] - Quote Why would playing together as a team, generating CP for a shot at PC be a bad thing? These are the necessary ingredients to make it all work. If farming means to play the game and try to win then call me a farmer and sign me up. People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 08:31:00 - [498] - Quote thor424 wrote: Why would playing together as a team, generating CP for a shot at PC be a bad thing? These are the necessary ingredients to make it all work. If farming means to play the game and try to win then call me a farmer and sign me up. People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. FW is not required to earn CP. CP are beeing handed out for completing missions which are limited to 10 every day per char. So thats not going to be a issue. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 12:06:00 - [499] - Quote thor424 wrote: People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. RIP Oceanic 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 14:00:00 - [500] - Quote thor424 wrote: There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. A merc might be inclined to think that low battle quality, choppy performance, low player headcounts, NPE and attrition are things we should work on to keep Dust alive. But that merc would be wrong. Soloists do more damage to Dust than anything else in the game. First, we should chase off all the soloists. / sarcasm Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 623	Posted - 2015.07.05 14:41:00 - [501] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. A merc might be inclined to think that low battle quality, choppy performance, low player headcounts, NPE and attrition are things we should work on to keep Dust alive. But that merc would be wrong. Soloists do more damage to Dust than anything else in the game. First, we should chase off all the soloists. / sarcasm The best NPE for Dust was pushing players into squads (auto squading). The randomness of 20-30 players individually running around doing who knows what makes for a frustrating experience far more often than not. It's a shame people are too stubborn to admit that, or too stupid to realize it.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 623	Posted - 2015.07.05 14:44:00 - [502] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: thor424 wrote: Why would playing together as a team, generating CP for a shot at PC be a bad thing? These are the necessary ingredients to make it all work. If farming means to play the game and try to win then call me a farmer and sign me up. People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. FW is not required to earn CP. CP are beeing handed out for completing missions which are limited to 10 every day per char. So thats not going to be a issue. My point is that it should be encouraged for corps to run together and the CP takes care of itself. To raise the bar in Dust it will take people learning how to squad and play within a team. PC is the bar, yet there's no ramp to get there.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:03:00 - [503] - Quote thor424 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. A merc might be inclined to think that low battle quality, choppy performance, low player headcounts, NPE and attrition are things we should work on to keep Dust alive. But that merc would be wrong. Soloists do more damage to Dust than anything else in the game. First, we should chase off all the soloists. / sarcasm The best NPE for Dust was pushing players into squads (auto squading). The randomness of 20-30 players individually running around doing who knows what makes for a frustrating experience far more often than not. It's a shame people are too stubborn to admit that, or too stupid to realize it. Turning a handful of indicators from blue to green solves all kinds of newberry problems. Defies all practical sense, but it works! Tired of getting officer stomped? Are you ready to fight back? Use squadfinder, today! / s Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 625	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:16:00 - [504] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. A merc might be inclined to think that low battle quality, choppy performance, low player headcounts, NPE and attrition are things we should work on to keep Dust alive. But that merc would be wrong. Soloists do more damage to Dust than anything else in the game. First, we should chase off all the soloists. / sarcasm The best NPE for Dust was pushing players into squads (auto squading). The randomness of 20-30 players individually running around doing who knows what makes for a frustrating experience far more often than not. It's a shame people are too stubborn to admit that, or too stupid to realize it. Turning a handful of indicators from blue to green solves all kinds of newberry problems. Defies all practical sense, but it works! Tired of getting officer stomped? Are you ready to fight back? Use squadfinder, today! / s There you go, you are catching on!
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:19:00 - [505] - Quote thor424 wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: thor424 wrote: Why would playing together as a team, generating CP for a shot at PC be a bad thing? These are the necessary ingredients to make it all work. If farming means to play the game and try to win then call me a farmer and sign me up. People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. FW is not required to earn CP. CP are beeing handed out for completing missions which are limited to 10 every day per char. So thats not going to be a issue. My point is that it should be encouraged for corps to run together and the CP takes care of itself. To raise the bar in Dust it will take people learning how to squad and play within a team. PC is the bar, yet there's no ramp to get there. When people can lock up FW behind closed doors to complete every one of their missions in one battle there becomes an issue. Specially when they can do this with alts to just continue to generate more and more CP. Sure this is more work than before to exploit PC but we know how far people in this game are willing to go for an advantage. As far as why am I not outraged by the terrible way pubs work I very much am and have made quite a few recommendations for payouts to be adjusted to only fix activity which is in essence a buff to team play, bitched enormously about the removal of the WB which was a nerf to team play, now seriously wonder how we can be allowed to go on with no freaking names in team chat which also messes up the possibilities of team play, and a few other things. What I had to say on those subjects was apparently either stupid or not outrageous enough to spark controversy so landed in the depths of forum purgatory never to seen again. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:41:00 - [506] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: thor424 wrote: There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. A merc might be inclined to think that low battle quality, choppy performance, low player headcounts, NPE and attrition are things we should work on to keep Dust alive. But that merc would be wrong. Soloists do more damage to Dust than anything else in the game. First, we should chase off all the soloists. / sarcasm The best NPE for Dust was pushing players into squads (auto squading). The randomness of 20-30 players individually running around doing who knows what makes for a frustrating experience far more often than not. It's a shame people are too stubborn to admit that, or too stupid to realize it. Turning a handful of indicators from blue to green solves all kinds of newberry problems. Defies all practical sense, but it works! Tired of getting officer stomped? Are you ready to fight back? Use squadfinder, today! / s Actually... It does... Because newer players learn about the team-play mechanics that are available, such as squad orders and orbital bombardment. There are a lot of new players who learned about this game from when we were auto-squaded together and even today the newer players that I get into the game learned through joining squads in the squad finder. New players learn the game a lot faster through social interaction, not trial and error. There is merit to auto-squading and there is nothing wrong with putting an option in the Neocom that allows a player to disable it. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:50:00 - [507] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Actually... It does... Because newer players learn about the team-play mechanics that are available, such as squad orders and orbital bombardment. There are a lot of new players who learned about this game from when we were auto-squaded together and even today the newer players that I get into the game learned through joining squads in the squad finder. New players learn the game a lot faster through social interaction, not trial and error. There is merit to auto-squading and there is nothing wrong with putting an option in the Neocom that allows a player to disable it. While you are both correct that auto squading could help it would end up just as useless as being auto placed in team comms in no time. Many players have decided they only want to run solo which is fine by me because who am I or who is anyone else to tell them how to play the game. Those players would just continue to create solo squads, comm into empty channels, or leave their comms turned off. What I would very much support is extending the academy and adding auto squads there along with some basic accomplishments that show them how to use those squads to ensure new players are familiar with these mechanics. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:23:00 - [508] - Quote If autosquad paired noobs to vets, then yes, the noobs would benefit. Right up until those mixed squads get tired of getting wrecked by proper squads. We end up with more of the same; stomp or be stomped with a touch of "well, we tried". Like with squadfinder. We can do better than this. For newberries to thrive, NPE needs more of a safe zone. Edit: And for bacon's sake, don't try to pin Dust's woes on soloists. (* not directed at Aeon). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:40:00 - [509] - Quote Deezy, again with this whole locked door thing. As long as their is a rolling popluation in FW matches keep spawning. Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:42:00 - [510] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If autosquad paired noobs to vets, then yes, the noobs would benefit. Right up until those mixed squads get tired of getting wrecked by proper squads. We end up with more of the same; stomp or be stomped with a touch of "well, we tried". Like with squadfinder. We can do better than this. For newberries to thrive, NPE needs more of a safe zone. Edit: And for bacon's sake, don't try to pin Dust's woes on soloists. They buy AUR and play the game like everyone else, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Dust's problems. (* not directed at Aeon). Instead of local we should have a rookie help chat like Eve does that vets could join to help newbies. A simple notification that pops up on login until you reach 3 - 5 million SP saying check there and squad up would do wonders for new player experience. By making it a channel that vet has to apply to get into would keep the amount of moderation needed to keep the channel from getting trolled into oblivion at a minimum. Then once that 3 - 5 million SP has been reached they are simply moved to their normal local chat. There are several work arounds to the local chat system that would make this work with minimum effort. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:54:00 - [511] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again with this whole locked door thing. As long as their is a rolling popluation in FW matches keep spawning. Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf That is impressive but I see no accounting for a couple of issues. The fact that squad size prioritization is already in effect. The fact that this same math must take place on both sides which means at any given time if one side has 16 players ready and the other does not a 16 man squad can hit search on the not ready side and force the process to start over on the other side meaning those players who were not ready for battle are left waiting. This is the slim case that I point out could lead to infinite search times for a group that has bad luck. What is also being missed is that we need a system that works as efficiently as possible with in the player community we have. We saw the affects of not understanding that in previous versions of matchmaking that were built for larger groups and ultimately turned into a serious mess for anyone that was not a top level vet. Why should the same mistake be made with FW? So yet again I have to ask why we should rush into a system that we know has a ton of unknown variables that could be extremely damaging instead of going with 8 + 8 so that everyone that wants persistent team play can even see if it is enough of a buff for them. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:54:00 - [512] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If autosquad paired noobs to vets, then yes, the noobs would benefit. Right up until those mixed squads get tired of getting wrecked by proper squads. We end up with more of the same; stomp or be stomped with a touch of "well, we tried". Like with squadfinder. We can do better than this. For newberries to thrive, NPE needs more of a safe zone. Edit: And for bacon's sake, don't try to pin Dust's woes on soloists. They buy AUR and play the game like everyone else, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Dust's problems. (* not directed at Aeon). Again solo players will always have their place in the system. We just have to remember that at the end of the day DUST is very focused on playing as a team and players should be encouraged and funneled into grouping up over time. It really is one of the keys to retaining players. Auto squading in pubs and maybe even FW would help I think. It's important that we create places for solo players to thrive the same as we create areas in the game for team play and groups to take a higher precedence. That's really the crux of the issue and it's going to come down to your personal opinion. For me the reduction in squad size was vital and makes it where Pub skirm, acq, dom, and ambush serve that role for incubating small groups and giving solo players a a place to enjoy DUST514 balanced by matchmaking and the 4 man fire team limit. That said once you leave high sec and it's 4 game modes and enter lowsec and the game mode of FW that emphasis on small groups and solo players should fall by the wayside with the emphasis put on players organizing themselves into fire teams, squads, and platoons. While the 4 public game modes incubate players starting out then FW serves as the mode for incubating larger groups including corps. With this being the case larger and more organized groups are pulled away from public play which then gives further breathing room to the less organized players. Solo players can of course enter FW, but should do so at their own risk. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:55:00 - [513] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again with this whole locked door thing. As long as their is a rolling popluation in FW matches keep spawning. Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf Ooooh man, I see this turning into Personal Incredulity real freaggin fast... Better put that in English so that the average Duster can understand >_<; 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Alaika Arbosa Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:56:00 - [514] - Quote I would support this though only if FW were made like PC in that we could actually choose a FW-held District to assault or defend I won't dodge another silver bullet Just to save a little face
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:57:00 - [515] - Quote The argument for "as long as there is a rolling population" is terribly flawed. We know this simply from the fact that FW has to be jump started every morning and the fact that players outside of the US have major issues joining FW unless of course they play during prime US hours. Being that we already have those exclusions for a large percent of our very small player base why strive to make those exclusions worse? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 17:03:00 - [516] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf Fun math. Which variable represents time? Or are we assuming infinite time? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 17:20:00 - [517] - Quote Deezy do you know whats even easier then to team deploy into FW and complete your missions there? Having a allied corp attacking one of your districts to boost CP missions and you dont even need 32 people to do that. So why should i do it in FW if i could do that on a PC district much better? Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 17:24:00 - [518] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf Fun math. Which variable represents time? Or are we assuming infinite time? You'd have to ask Leither to be sure, but from what I understand this looks at the probability of success at a specific moment in time. As others then join into the queue you then run another round using what Leither drew up. At it's core though the indication is that Deezy's issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. There is weight given to when you queue and how many you queue, but we'd have to drag Nullarbor away from Eve for exact weighting. Needless to say in the discussions I've had with CPM the actually queuing happening was never a concern using a one FW queue system. What did become a concern is if the FW queue was broken into two queues where solo players got put in their own FW box in order to protect them from going against players forming fireteams, squads, and platoons. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:00:00 - [519] - Quote The wait time is a flawed excuse and makes no difference...whether it's 2 squads of 8, 1 squad of 16 or 4 squads of 4 the wait will all be the same you are just making the chances of dc's more likely to accur... No matter how you look at it TD does not leave out players it simply makes the first match happen sooner and the second match start to fill up sooner But sure you can find a flaw in this logic as well most likely "exploiters"..other NF QQ "Kain" Also how I feel when I solo FW - http://youtu.be/ch85ZIoLH60 Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:05:00 - [520] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy do you know whats even easier then to team deploy into FW and complete your missions there? Having a allied corp attacking one of your districts to boost CP missions and you dont even need 32 people to do that. So why should i do it in FW if i could do that on a PC district much better? Raise a good point, there. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.

benandjerrys Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 247	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:05:00 - [521] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first. It's not a major problem in my eyes as we still have syncing that can be done. But there are other concerns as well with the final introduction of the fireteams, Squad and Platoon that I have which haven't been addressed yet. Namely WP unlock levels for each level of squad size. A 16 man team will garner enough WP to a full OB in a matter of a couple of minutes, probably quicker. Going against another Platoon is fine, going against two squads with the same WP requirement for OB but less players is frankly stupid. So first we need to determine a fair and scaled level of WP requirement for each size of 'squad'. For that we need data. And this is exactly way it's full deploy in PC, Squads in FW and Fireteams in Pubs. When the data is available then full TD in FW will happen with the correctly scaled OB requirements. I'm sorry but the community has asked and waited for team deploy long enough. It's time to rip off the bandaid. There are times to throw caution to the wind and charge forward with progress. This is one of those times. To put things in perspective here are threads dating back to 2012 asking for team deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=231803 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=512586 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=390856 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=920479 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104107 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=922358 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=85273 Original Dev intention of Team Deploy in FW: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=111664 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116266 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=117177 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=116032 Devs working on team deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1410067#post1410067 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124987 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123829 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124992 Devs mentioning the desire the implement Team Deploy: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1559253#post1559253 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=126295 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128200 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=128516 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133236 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=133081 https:/... ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content We need live events discussion
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:41:00 - [522] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: At it's core though the indication is that issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. This is a textbook optimization problem, and optimization is a very real kind of math, Kain Spero. Restricting input sizes to 4, 8 or 16 would absolutely result in less process time and - more importantly- substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs. If you think I'm trying to fool you, ask Demens Grimwulff. Or get Leither in here to defend his theory. Leither's math is fun and appears to be accurate, but for these purposes, it is incomplete and assumptive. Edit: You've got a billion Isk, right? Care to make a wager? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:54:00 - [523] - Quote Considering that this thread has made it to 26 pages based almost exclusively around the same handful of people arguing the same points of logic despite what can only be described as a great majority of players being in favor of the Team Deploy.... Is startling. Maybe those concerns are ill-founded when compared to the rest of the community's desires. But, yanno, tin-foil about how the only people who would support this are boosters. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
benandjerrys Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 247	Posted - 2015.07.05 18:58:00 - [524] - Quote Good tl;Dr mate. ONE UNIVERSE//ONE WAR Support Dust/EvE cross content We need live events discussion
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 19:02:00 - [525] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Considering that this thread has made it to 26 pages based almost exclusively around the same handful of people arguing the same points of logic despite what can only be described as a great majority of players being in favor of the Team Deploy.... Is startling. Like, seriously. CCP Rattati's thread has 52 likes, this one has 45. I'd say that that is a pretty sizable portion of the players being in favor of team deploy and considering that, as mentioned above, it's the same handful of people arguing against it...? Maybe those concerns are ill-founded when compared to the rest of the community's desires. But, yanno, tin-foil about how the only people who would support this are boosters. Sounds like the Forums during AR-514, right? For every one guy who had a problem with It, there were 4 or 5 there to proclaim that everything was fine. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 19:25:00 - [526] - Quote What baffles me is the flawed logic behind the anti-team deploy position. It's like people took pills to make them forget that we already have a team deploy system in place. It's really starting to seem like the folks that don't want more competition are those that refuse to give the community the tools to make their own groups easily. I've said it before and I'll say it again 8+8 doesn't effect the current people such as myself that run syncs. It only makes it easier, but it doesn't solve key problems like needing to sync via voice or allowing teams to search more than two factions at a time. I want more teams floating around in FW to increase the quality of the matches and to make it where corps can build themselves up so they can compete in FW should the so choose. I'm sorry but the solo crowd trying to monopolize all 5 instant deploy game modes seems like short-sighted selfishness. On top of this the Dust community has been asking for a way to instantly deploy teams for years. 8+8 will solve the problem for the most part for the elite crowd, but leaves those less knowledgeable about syncing in the dirt. Again, since we already have 16 man team deploy via q-syncs why not codify it? The queue nonsense is just that and forcing players to have complete sets of 4, 8, or 16 is silly concept since the player population and natural variation in how many people have in their groups will solve the team builder issue just as it does today. The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)? The rest of these arguments are quite frankly a load of garbage that clouds the actual issue. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 19:29:00 - [527] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Considering that this thread has made it to 26 pages based almost exclusively around the same handful of people arguing the same points of logic despite what can only be described as a great majority of players being in favor of the Team Deploy.... Is startling. Like, seriously. CCP Rattati's thread has 52 likes, this one has 45. I'd say that that is a pretty sizable portion of the players being in favor of team deploy and considering that, as mentioned above, it's the same handful of people arguing against it...? Maybe those concerns are ill-founded when compared to the rest of the community's desires. But, yanno, tin-foil about how the only people who would support this are boosters. Lemme just twist this around right quick in an attempt to completely derail the thread AND SHOW MY HATRED OF THE PAST GRRRRRR ADIPEM SMASH PUNY THINGS THAT HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO. FTFY 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:00:00 - [528] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Considering that this thread has made it to 26 pages based almost exclusively around the same handful of people arguing the same points of logic despite what can only be described as a great majority of players being in favor of the Team Deploy.... Is startling. Like, seriously. CCP Rattati's thread has 52 likes, this one has 45. I'd say that that is a pretty sizable portion of the players being in favor of team deploy and considering that, as mentioned above, it's the same handful of people arguing against it...? Maybe those concerns are ill-founded when compared to the rest of the community's desires. But, yanno, tin-foil about how the only people who would support this are boosters. Lemme just twist this around right quick in an attempt to completely derail the thread AND SHOW MY HATRED OF THE PAST GRRRRRR ADIPEM SMASH PUNY THINGS THAT HAPPENED TWO YEARS AGO. FTFY "The vast majority" isn't always right; what the majority wants isn't always what's best for the game. PS: I don't have a horse in this race; OK either way. Though if teamdeploy does go through and flops, I do intend to laugh at Kain's hubris. Maybe even make some isk if he's willing to wager Isk on queue problems. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:02:00 - [529] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: What baffles me is the flawed logic behind the anti-team deploy position. It's like people took pills to make them forget that we already have a team deploy system in place. It's really starting to seem like the folks that don't want more competition are those that refuse to give the community the tools to make their own groups easily. I've said it before and I'll say it again 8+8 doesn't effect the current people such as myself that run syncs. It only makes it easier, but it doesn't solve key problems like needing to sync via voice or allowing teams to search more than two factions at a time. I want more teams floating around in FW to increase the quality of the matches and to make it where corps can build themselves up so they can compete in FW and even PC should the so choose. I'm sorry but the solo crowd trying to monopolize all 5 instant deploy game modes seems like short-sighted selfishness. On top of this the Dust community has been asking for a way to instantly deploy teams for years. 8+8 will solve the problem for the most part for the elite crowd, but leaves those less knowledgeable about syncing in the dirt. Again, since we already have 16 man team deploy via q-syncs why not codify it? The queue nonsense is just that and forcing players to have complete sets of 4, 8, or 16 is silly concept since the player population and natural variation in how many people have in their groups will solve the team builder issue just as it does today. The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)? The rest of these arguments are quite frankly a load of garbage that clouds the actual issue. What bothers me is the fact that you claim there is a team deploy system in place with absolutely zero evidence. People are able to Q sync easily because of low numbers in FW and squad prioritization. This has nothing to do with a team deploy system like you are proposing and the possible issues which it presents. The dev post you linked very clearly stated that CCP Nullarbor is working on it but it is NOT being deployed in that update. There was nothing else said about it following that and someone else even linked Ratatti talking about much of that update having been completely removed at this point. So as I said before unless you are revealing something you learned as CPM or there is absolutely zero evidence what so ever that the system you keep claiming even exists. Which is it? You keep saying you want more teams running around but you have also made it pretty clear you do not give a flying **** about the negative consequences for anyone that does not have a 16 man team. I for one am quite happy that more people around here do not have your ignorant view of screw everyone else as long as I get what I want. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:10:00 - [530] - Quote Again, I was present when CCP set up team deploy as it stands in FW. I know for a fact that it was intentional. This has been stated publicly by CCP on a few occasions including fanfest round tables etc. so it isn't some gotcha moment. The matchmaker that was removed was for public matches and had nothing to do with Faction Warfare which is a separate system. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:12:00 - [531] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, I was present when CCP set up team deploy as it stands in FW. I know for a fact that it was intentional. This has been stated publicly by CCP on a few occasions including fanfest round tables etc. so it isn't some gotcha moment. The matchmaker that was removed was for public matches and had nothing to do with Faction Warfare which is a separate system. So you are revealing information (or claiming to) that was obtained under NDA with CCP and using that as your argument? You have yet to show any of these public statements that you are claiming so it all has a bit of a stink to it. The only thing you linked stated exactly to the contrary of what you are saying. Show me any of this evidence and I will gladly admit that I was far in the wrong. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:15:00 - [532] - Quote How can I reveal something that's been known publicly about for years and been utilized by the FW community accordingly? Please can you drop your straw man arguments? "The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)?" Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:22:00 - [533] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Again, I was present when CCP set up team deploy as it stands in FW. I know for a fact that it was intentional. This has been stated publicly by CCP on a few occasions including fanfest round tables etc. so it isn't some gotcha moment. The matchmaker that was removed was for public matches and had nothing to do with Faction Warfare which is a separate system. So you are revealing information (or claiming to) that was obtained under NDA with CCP and using that as your argument? You have yet to show any of these public statements that you are claiming so it all has a bit of a stink to it. The only thing you linked stated exactly to the contrary of what you are saying. Show me any of this evidence and I will gladly admit that I was far in the wrong. God you're reaching. The fact that squads have priority in the matchmaking queue was an open secret that's been around since chromosome and earlier. The fact that Q-syncs were possible was arranged because they were having problems with the code to link multiple squads to the same match, which rattati and co. handily decided to work around via making three types of squads. Is this really difficult to figure out? If kane had been vomiting NDA materiel, Archduke woulda banned his ass and deleted the thread before it hit page 3. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:41:00 - [534] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: "The vast majority" isn't always right; what the majority wants isn't always what's best for the game. PS: I don't have a horse in this race; OK either way. Though if teamdeploy does go through and flops, I do intend to laugh at Kain's hubris. Maybe even make some isk if he's willing to wager Isk on queue problems. I was hoping to argue about how OP ARs were two years ago and how it has nothing to do with why we should/shouldn't have team deploy now... But yeah, we can flip-flop on whether or not the community is right or wrong, but in this case; they're pretty much right just because we're -already q-synching full teams as it is-. The majority is advocating for something that already exists, not some grand hypothetical that came out of left field. Hate to lay down the reals here but unfounded, baseless fears that have no evidence don't trump the majority that have already been utilizing a 'feature' since FW was opened in the first place. I'm sorry, but if we stopped a Quality of Life feature for every hypothetical fear that was introduced we would get no-where. Sometimes it's best to take a risk and be reactionary than it is to be proactive and prevent progress. deezy dabest wrote: So you are revealing information (or claiming to) that was obtained under NDA with CCP and using that as your argument? You have yet to show any of these public statements that you are claiming so it all has a bit of a stink to it. The only thing you linked stated exactly to the contrary of what you are saying. Show me any of this evidence and I will gladly admit that I was far in the wrong. Bro, I'mma cut you off right there and just say this. It isn't Kain's sole responsibility to show evidence as to validate -your- fears or to endlessly show you reasons why you shouldn't be afraid. Likewise, you are under no obligation to agree with him, but what is for certain is that if you aren't willing to accept evidence given that doesn't necessarily make you 100% right and the rest of the world 100% wrong. It is okay to demand a logical position but to outright dismiss all evidence provided while submitting nothing true yourself is like arguing God versus Evolution. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:58:00 - [535] - Quote FYI the DNS creampie was my doing Kain was just the public announcer Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:59:00 - [536] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bro, I'mma cut you off right there and just say this. It isn't Kain's sole responsibility to show evidence as to validate -your- fears or to endlessly show you reasons why you shouldn't be afraid. Likewise, you are under no obligation to agree with him, but what is for certain is that if you aren't willing to accept evidence given that doesn't necessarily make you 100% right and the rest of the world 100% wrong. It is okay to demand a logical position but to outright dismiss all evidence provided while submitting nothing true yourself is like arguing God versus Evolution. I.m not asking him to validate my fears I am asking him to validate what most would consider the entire groundwork of his argument. I have already said in detail how to manipulate team deploy to pad stats, farm SP, and even manipulate the new PC system. The only argument anyone has had for those is "people won't do that because it takes work." Well those same people would probably have you believe that no one would buy a $150 - $200 controller just to be able to shoot a little faster. While I can not show the numbers that people are or will be using to search I have shown very clearly how the increase in variations as well as having more than 50% and less than 100% of the players needed in one squad presents very possible issues that not only increase search times for those players but have the ability to leave some people out completely. I would like to point out that Kain's one and only argument to those is that team deploy already exists which he has presented zero actual evidence of other than the evidence that stated exactly to the contrary of what he is claiming. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:03:00 - [537] - Quote To be clear: There has been zero evidence presented that team deploy already exists. The fact that people can queue sync is simply squad priority which is actually something that causes an issue with having more than 50% of players in one squad. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:11:00 - [538] - Quote Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. 10% of US schools no longer teach Cursive. A decade from now, 10% of the US isn't going to understand all the squiglies.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:13:00 - [539] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: At it's core though the indication is that issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. This is a textbook optimization problem, and optimization is a very real kind of math, Kain Spero. Restricting input sizes to 4, 8 or 16 would absolutely result in less process time and - more importantly - substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs. If you think I'm trying to fool you, ask Demens Grimwulff. Or get Leither in here to defend his theory. Leither's math is fun and appears to be accurate, but for these purposes, it is incomplete and assumptive. Edit: You've got a billion Isk, right? Care to make a wager? You're completely right that the problem is irrelevant, but you kinda say: "The problem is irrelevant" and then "The problem is actually relevant" in two subsequent sentences. Your statement "substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs" is unclear for two competing reasons: It is precisely a statement which is equivalent to the counting problem I attempted to detail in my discussion. It's clear that the problem is difficult, and that the results don't necessarily match your claimed intuition about the impact of larger squad sizes has on the proportion of "good" squad partitions. In fact, my proof was incorrect for a number of reasons, though I've finally turned up what looks to be a paper by an undergraduate or graduate student pair that can be used to put the question to rest for a few basic examples. https://www.rose-hulman.edu/mathjournal/archives/2008/vol9-n2/paper5/v9n2-5pd.pdf ; I'm checking it and then I'll have to futz around with some CAS stuff. All of the discussion of proportions of valid partitions is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. We have absolutely no clue as to how frequently groupings of particular sizes typically arrive in the queue. If solo players turn up excessively often then the entire discussion is meaningless. This isn't a matter of optimization, it's a matter of queuing theory, and a complicated matter at that even if we had the information that we're missing. There are so many better points of contention in this discussion space than trying to make an argument based on mathematics that none of us have the time to synthesize. The statement is entirely vacuous without more information and more analysis. Even further, it completely ignores the psychological aspect of how the queuing environment will probably change as players respond to new conditions. I'm not entirely caught up on this thread because it has run so long. Perhaps you were suggesting that we should just restrict groups to sizes of 4, 8, and 16 wholesale in FW. That might not be a terrible idea for a number of psychological and gameplay reasons, but in terms of math? I'm not so sure. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:15:00 - [540] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. The most profitable scenario would be 16 people each from two corps who are both land holders. They would then be able to lock up districts and sell clones at will with no risk other than one of the squad leaders not hitting X at the right time. Yes this would take a somewhat considerable amount of effort. But hey everyone is too lazy to exploit things in this game right? No one uses modded controllers because they are too expensive for Dust either. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:21:00 - [541] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: At it's core though the indication is that issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. This is a textbook optimization problem, and optimization is a very real kind of math, Kain Spero. Restricting input sizes to 4, 8 or 16 would absolutely result in less process time and - more importantly - substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs. If you think I'm trying to fool you, ask Demens Grimwulff. Or get Leither in here to defend his theory. Leither's math is fun and appears to be accurate, but for these purposes, it is incomplete and assumptive. Edit: You've got a billion Isk, right? Care to make a wager? You're completely right that the problem is irrelevant, but you kinda say: "The problem is irrelevant" and then "The problem is actually relevant" in two subsequent sentences. Your statement "substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs" is unclear for two competing reasons: It is precisely a statement which is equivalent to the counting problem I attempted to detail in my discussion. It's clear that the problem is difficult, and that the results don't necessarily match your claimed intuition about the impact of larger squad sizes has on the proportion of "good" squad partitions. In fact, my proof was incorrect for a number of reasons, though I've finally turned up what looks to be a paper by an undergraduate or graduate student pair that can be used to put the question to rest for a few basic examples. https://www.rose-hulman.edu/mathjournal/archives/2008/vol9-n2/paper5/v9n2-5pd.pdf ; I'm checking it and then I'll have to futz around with some CAS stuff. All of the discussion of proportions of valid partitions is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. We have absolutely no clue as to how frequently groupings of particular sizes typically arrive in the queue. If solo players turn up excessively often then the entire discussion is meaningless. This isn't a matter of optimization, it's a matter of queuing theory, and a complicated matter at that even if we had the information that we're missing. There are so many better points of contention in this discussion space than trying to make an argument based on mathematics that none of us have the time to synthesize. The statement is entirely vacuous without more information and more analysis. Even further, it completely ignores the psychological aspect of how the queuing environment will probably change as players respond to new conditions. I'm not entirely caught up on this thread because it has run so long. Perhaps you were suggesting that we should just restrict groups to sizes of 4, 8, and 16 wholesale in FW. That might not be a terrible idea for a number of psychological and gameplay reasons, but in terms of math? I'm not so sure. First of all I will say that making it so that only 1 - 8 and 16 man squads can deploy would entirely work and null my entire argument. I will go even further and say that I would 100% support that if it were the discussion on the table. Back to the math stuff. The simple issue here is that you are trying to calculate based on a clean slate which is simply not the case. We already have squad prioritization in effect which means that would have to be reworked as well before 16 man can be added. Before someone tries to say it: Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 5	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:33:00 - [542] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Before someone tries to say it: Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed. Well, then after all this argument it's good to know that we all basically support team deployment then. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:35:00 - [543] - Quote Wow..... People are still blathering away at this? Most basic concepts for this: Public Matches --- for entry/earning money -- used to repel newcomers like the plague because of Proto squads Faction Warfare-- supposed to be a "step up" but those same Proto squads made it so a good majority of people didn't want to show up.... they were bored of the same old same old. Planetary Conquest --- The endgame target--- clearly only meant for experienced players Bluntly put--- Proto squads are living proof that a full deploy would be bad for FW people ready to move up from disorganized squads would ALWAYS be in a loosing group so here's a question: Why would you even try to continue a game mode if everything you do ends in failure? ...until they found a dedicated corporation. But do you know how long it takes to search through the Dust system to find a reliable one without coming to these forums? Many people get rejected just because of KD/R, which is absurd. Having an 8 man means you don't need a full corp just to enter battle, but a semi-organized corp with partially casual players can join to engage and learn the ropes if needed. Much easier to find one of this value. Aside from removing mid-level play... a full team would also prevent faction rewards from meaning anything. Most likely the skins and such would all have to be removed. On top of that... the repellant nature of excessive competition would stop all new entrants from even looking at FW. Then you'd start launching complaints as to why FW battles don't ever seem to start, or take an hour to launch.... The more players there are in a mode, the faster it launches. The more players you repel from a mode the slower it launches. If I recall... in the past people complained because they had to "Kickstart" Matches? Imagine if this switched to a daily occurrence. I mean think people. Seriously. Do you want to play, or stare at an empty match screen? http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:35:00 - [544] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. The most profitable scenario would be 16 people each from two corps who are both land holders. They would then be able to lock up districts and sell clones at will with no risk other than one of the squad leaders not hitting X at the right time. Yes this would take a somewhat considerable amount of effort. But hey everyone is too lazy to exploit things in this game right? No one uses modded controllers because they are too expensive for Dust either. O.o????? The hell are you going on about now with this clone selling business? Land holders? The hell does any of that have to do with Faction Warfare???? It has to do with exactly the point I made earlier about intentional CP farming through the same exploits. Considering CP is required for almost every move you make in PC as well as provides access to discounted clone packs any CP exploit is a serious one that has the means to offset the many months now that has been spent trying to work out PC 2.0. CP is required to sell clones. No CP no passive ISK from clone generation, more CP more passive ISK and district credits to spend in the "unique market" CP is required to change timers. If you want to lock districts through moving timers around you need a large flow of CP exactly what exploiting this could provide. CP can be used for cheaper clone packs which can also be used to launch locking attacks as well as give any corp a larger advantage than their corporation activity is meant to dictate. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:39:00 - [545] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Before someone tries to say it: Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed. Well, then after all this argument it's good to know that we all basically support team deployment then. I thought I had made it clear a few times but in the mess that this thread has become I can see it being missed. I 100% support persistent team play. I 0% support just tossing it into the current system to rush it in and potentially screw over a large portion of the player base. Also with team deploy in place at the right time CCP would have the time to explore counter measures above the ones which currently exist and would not properly limit advantages that come from nothing more than manipulating bad mechanics. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:40:00 - [546] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. The most profitable scenario would be 16 people each from two corps who are both land holders. They would then be able to lock up districts and sell clones at will with no risk other than one of the squad leaders not hitting X at the right time. Yes this would take a somewhat considerable amount of effort. But hey everyone is too lazy to exploit things in this game right? No one uses modded controllers because they are too expensive for Dust either. O.o????? The hell are you going on about now with this clone selling business? Land holders? The hell does any of that have to do with Faction Warfare???? It has to do with exactly the point I made earlier about intentional CP farming through the same exploits. Considering CP is required for almost every move you make in PC as well as provides access to discounted clone packs any CP exploit is a serious one that has the means to offset the many months now that has been spent trying to work out PC 2.0. CP is required to sell clones. No CP no passive ISK from clone generation, more CP more passive ISK and district credits to spend in the "unique market" CP is required to change timers. If you want to lock districts through moving timers around you need a large flow of CP exactly what exploiting this could provide. CP can be used for cheaper clone packs which can also be used to launch locking attacks as well as give any corp a larger advantage than their corporation activity is meant to dictate. none of the preceding argument means a goddamn thing in the context of team deploy in faction warfare. Confirming Chewbacca Defense in action. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:03:00 - [547] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: At it's core though the indication is that issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. This is a textbook optimization problem, and optimization is a very real kind of math, Kain Spero. Restricting input sizes to 4, 8 or 16 would absolutely result in less process time and - more importantly - substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs. If you think I'm trying to fool you, ask Demens Grimwulff. Or get Leither in here to defend his theory. Leither's math is fun and appears to be accurate, but for these purposes, it is incomplete and assumptive. Edit: You've got a billion Isk, right? Care to make a wager? You're completely right that the problem is irrelevant, but you kinda say: "The problem is irrelevant" and then "The problem is actually relevant" in two subsequent sentences. Your statement "substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs" is unclear for two competing reasons: It is precisely a statement which is equivalent to the counting problem I attempted to detail in my discussion. It's clear that the problem is difficult, and that the results don't necessarily match your claimed intuition about the impact of larger squad sizes has on the proportion of "good" squad partitions. In fact, my proof was incorrect for a number of reasons, though I've finally turned up what looks to be a paper by an undergraduate or graduate student pair that can be used to put the question to rest for a few basic examples. https://www.rose-hulman.edu/mathjournal/archives/2008/vol9-n2/paper5/v9n2-5pd.pdf ; I'm checking it and then I'll have to futz around with some CAS stuff. All of the discussion of proportions of valid partitions is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. We have absolutely no clue as to how frequently groupings of particular sizes typically arrive in the queue. If solo players turn up excessively often then the entire discussion is meaningless. This isn't a matter of optimization, it's a matter of queuing theory, and a complicated matter at that even if we had the information that we're missing. There are so many better points of contention in this discussion space than trying to make an argument based on mathematics that none of us have the time to synthesize. The statement is entirely vacuous without more information and more analysis. Even further, it completely ignores the psychological aspect of how the queuing environment will probably change as players respond to new conditions. I'm not entirely caught up on this thread because it has run so long. Perhaps you were suggesting that we should just restrict groups to sizes of 4, 8, and 16 wholesale in FW. That might not be a terrible idea for a number of psychological and gameplay reasons, but in terms of math? I'm not so sure. Back to the math stuff. The simple issue here is that you are trying to calculate based on a clean slate which is simply not the case. We already have squad prioritization in effect which means that would have to be reworked as well before 16 man can be added. No, I've never purported that the conclusion here has any bearing on the actual situation from a mathematical standpoint. What I've set about to show is that yours and Adipem's intuitions are absolutely not useful, and that's patently the case. It should be clear to you and Adipem now that the existence of "bad" partitioning configurations is only a single, tiny observation in what would be a detailed investigation. For the length of the history of this discussion, I've been emphasizing that the fact of the matter is that there are no useful conclusions to draw on a mathematical basis without substantial further analysis of a type none of us are going to do. "There will be odd parts!" is a concern that is neither here nor there without information that we don't have. The problem is not simple, and both of your continuing posting patterns make it clear that you don't really understand the level of analysis necessary to draw even cursory conclusions. I'm not really going to sit around arguing this point much further, since I'm pretty sure only you and Adipem insist on trying to draw mathematical conclusions without any particular rigorous basis in fact. From the outset, the only conclusion any reader should take away is this: Without proof it's completely impossible to say whether a mathematical statement is true or false. Claiming that a statement is true because of a few observations that make you "feel that way" is a great place to start investigating proof, but it's not a valid place from which to draw a conclusion. Have a pony
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:10:00 - [548] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: No, I've never purported that the conclusion here has any bearing on the actual situation from a mathematical standpoint. What I've set about to show is that yours and Adipem's intuitions are absolutely not useful, and that's patently the case. It should be clear to you and Adipem now that the existence of "bad" partitioning configurations is only a single, tiny observation in what would be a detailed investigation. For the length of the history of this discussion, I've been emphasizing that the fact of the matter is that there are no useful conclusions to draw on a mathematical basis without substantial further analysis of a type none of us are going to do. "There will be odd parts!" is a concern that is neither here nor there without information that we don't have. The problem is not simple, and both of your continuing posting patterns make it clear that you don't really understand the level of analysis necessary to draw even cursory conclusions. I'm not really going to sit around arguing this point much further, since I'm pretty sure only you and Adipem insist on trying to draw mathematical conclusions without any particular rigorous basis in fact. From the outset, the only take away that I want any reader to take away is this: Without proof it's completely impossible to say whether a mathematical statement is true or false. Claiming that a statement is true because of a few observations that make you "feel that way" is a great place to start investigating proof, but it's not a valid place from which to draw a conclusion. When you take squad prioritization into play it makes a very big difference which is why I mention the fact that you are simply operating from the assumptions of a clean slate being what we are talking about. The current system was never built to handle just randomly throwing in squad sizes like we are discussing here. If it was built to handle it we would not be having this discussion because CCP would have gone ahead and dropped 16 man deploy into the mix. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:32:00 - [549] - Quote You're making a lot of assumptions about "what, and Why" and forgetting that the previous dev team loved to overcomplicate simple things. We are currently at the mercy of a mad scientist dev who seems to think that simplicity that even a 12 year old can understand isn't a bad thing if it can add to the game. There is not "Matchmaker wasn't built to handle 16 man squads. the matchmaker doesn't give a crap if the squad is 16 or 6. In fact, if there's multiple 16s in the queue all the matchmaker has to do is pull the two highest in the queue, drop them then go back to Mu sorting of the smaller squads and randumbs. Every argument I have seen based on math eitehr needs to sh*t numbers proving the thesis or admit that the thesis is based on an asspull. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:44:00 - [550] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You're making a lot of assumptions about "what, and Why" and forgetting that the previous dev team loved to overcomplicate simple things. We are currently at the mercy of a mad scientist dev who seems to think that simplicity that even a 12 year old can understand isn't a bad thing if it can add to the game. There is not "Matchmaker wasn't built to handle 16 man squads. the matchmaker doesn't give a crap if the squad is 16 or 6. In fact, if there's multiple 16s in the queue all the matchmaker has to do is pull the two highest in the queue, drop them then go back to Mu sorting of the smaller squads and randumbs. Every argument I have seen based on math eitehr needs to sht numbers proving the thesis or admit that the thesis is based on an asspull. The team builder in FW is not the match maker in pubs. It does not have Mu or anything else. It simply slams 16 people together as fast as possible while making sure squads get to go in first. CCP Rattati wrote:* Yokal Bob wrote: Matchmaking will probably put a 16 man squad against randoms in FW. Such is the way of dust there is no matchmaking in FW Source Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:49:00 - [551] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: The team builder in FW is not the match maker in pubs. It does not have Mu or anything else. It simply slams 16 people together as fast as possible while making sure squads get to go in first. OMG! YOU PAID ATTENTION! It appears you DO seem to understand how the matchmaker works. Now apply the following logic: Greater squad size = acceleration to a higher spot on queue. Priority of deployment: Full Squads. THEN partial squads THEN Randumbs. It has always been thus, even in FW. It does not simply roll the random number generator and go "All right, what miserable mismatch can I pop out of my ass today???" WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 9	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:52:00 - [552] - Quote Literally the only way to get a pot of randoms in FW vs a 16 would be for THE ENTIRE FW FACTION TO NOT DEPLOY ANY FULL TEAMS WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:59:00 - [553] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: The team builder in FW is not the match maker in pubs. It does not have Mu or anything else. It simply slams 16 people together as fast as possible while making sure squads get to go in first. OMG! YOU PAID ATTENTION! It appears you DO seem to understand how the matchmaker works. Now apply the following logic: Greater squad size = acceleration to a higher spot on queue. Priority of deployment: Full Squads. THEN partial squads THEN Randumbs. It has always been thus, even in FW. It does not simply roll the random number generator and go "All right, what miserable mismatch can I pop out of my ass today???" And correct. Rattati did not apply any new matchmaking logic other than what was already there to FW deployment. Now remember this and go back to one of my examples and you will see exactly the problem I am trying to point too. Obviously you have not bothered to read anything I said and instead surmised an opinion based on peoples responses or quick skims. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 23:08:00 - [554] - Quote If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 635	Posted - 2015.07.05 23:17:00 - [555] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. What game are you playing? This happens all the time already.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 23:19:00 - [556] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. What game are you playing? This happens all the time already. You obviously missed the portion which I underlined for you. Since there is already a problem does that mean we should make it worse? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 637	Posted - 2015.07.06 01:20:00 - [557] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. What game are you playing? This happens all the time already. You obviously missed the portion which I underlined for you. Since there is already a problem does that mean we should make it worse? I don't think team deploy would make it worse.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.06 01:25:00 - [558] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: I'm not really going to sit around arguing this point much further, since I'm pretty sure only you and Adipem insist on trying to draw mathematical conclusions without any particular rigorous basis in fact. Whoa now. Let's not get confused about who's drawing conclusions here. Kain Spero is dismissing as "nonsense" concerns about potential queue complications, citing your earlier math as evidence. My position is and has been that queues would move faster and probability of "hang ups" would be lower if matchmaking were fed blocks of 4, 8 or 16 (for example) rather than 1<=n<=16. From an optimization standpoint, this is a simple and obvious truth. I'm not arguing for or against team deploy. I'm simply pointing that at present headcounts, the potential for queuing problem exists under 1<=n<=16, and that "blocking" inputs together could be a simple solution for that problem. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

CCP Frame C C P C C P Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.07.06 01:29:00 - [559] - Quote This thread derailed into oblivion from flaming, trolling and I really can't see any more constructive feedback in here. While we appreciate the OP feedback and its stance on this matter, we will lock this thread for now, and come back to you with an official feedback thread should we consider this feature once again. Until then, keep an eye out for CCP Rattati's forum posts. Thank you for all your constructive feedback that you had so far guys. CCP Frame, CCP Community Team



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