Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through:

Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs.

This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy.

Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here.

I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through:

Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs.

This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy.

We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI.

Rebutals:

1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins.


2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment.

3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance.

This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad.


4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely.


5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC.

It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are.

Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that.

Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident"

Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced.

As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it.

Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait

As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know

@ Kain Spero, SirManBoy, Juno Tristan

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. One last rhetorical question in response to the point above and a potential request.

---

Is it not true that FW q-syncs fail on occasion? And on those occasions, do the "non-party" players who've been waiting in line for FW (for potentially long periods) get into a match? As I understand it, this is the case today and it would not be the case if those q-syncing did in fact have the equivalent of team deploy.

If a team deploy UI existed, 32-man syncs would "skip the line" altogether as they effectively create their own matches. Meanwhile, the assorted lego blocks in queue would likely remain in queue until other blocks of perfect, complementary size queued alongside them. I haven't read Leither's or Wikipedia's theories on this, but I seriously doubt that at current headcounts these "perfect storms" would happen in a timely fashion. Unexplained, perpetual queues would make for an extremely poor UX.

---

Assuming Team Deploy is supported:

Request
* A Squad Leader cannot queue for FW until he has a full squad of 8 or a full platoon of 16.
* The option to queue for FW is disabled to fireteams or partially filled squads/platoons.
* Players without squad are permitted to queue for FW to fill the singular gaps left by disconnect, leaving battle, etc.
* Players without squad are prompted with an "enter at your own risk" warning when they enter FW queue.

While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game?

On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6.

New players get kicked because there's no room in the squad (of 6 or 12) to make way for a vet and they don't have the skills to set up a new squad to sync

Team deploy will make it easier for them to stay on

Team deploy would be a blessing to the vets of the game which most of all wants a no bullshit clean good game outside PC. Anyone who opposses this suggestion is a scrub. Thats a Scientifictional fact.

You will alwaysa have randoms queuing up ready to fill the gaps

Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that.

In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when only 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen.

Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios.

No such thing as a no bullshit game, this is dust.

Needing 16 men to win a FW is what makes you a scrub.

Then again, you don't roll without 5 buddies into pub matches, so you calling anyone a scrub is more than a bit hypocritical.

No such thing as a no bullshit game, this is dust.

Needing 16 men to win a FW is what makes you a scrub.

Then again, you don't roll without 5 buddies into pub matches, so you calling anyone a scrub is more than a bit hypocritical.

Nobody is saying they need 16 to win.

I guess it's easy to not grow tired of worthless blueberries when you don't actually play the game you visit the forum for.

Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b.

Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular.

The blue donut was required .

In my opinion, it is far more fanciful to assume that queue times would be fine because "insert theory" than it is to suspect that there might be a problem. We may not have exact numbers, but we don't need exact numbers. We have a rough idea as to how many players are logging into Dust each day. We know that those players are split across multiple regions and timezones, and we know that those players are not all queuing for FW.

If we assume that 3000 players are logged in at any given time,

We know that we don't have 10,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW.
We know that we don't have 5,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW.
We know that we likely won't have 1,000 players queuing simultaneously for FW.
Realistically, we might have 500 ( +/- X) players queuing simultaneously for FW.
Of those 500, I think it reasonable to assume that a large subset will be party to organized battles.
Of the remaining randomly sized "lego blocks", not all will be evenly divided across the 4 factions.

Point being, valid concerns can be posited based solely upon ballparked figures. We've an optimization problem here with extremely specific output requirements and a wide range of variable inputs. I'm of the opinion that extremely long waits would be much more likely than short waits. And if those lines start out long, they will only lengthen as players discover that the lines are not worth waiting in.

If the goal is to eventually roll out team deploy for FW, I believe we'd do well to first restrict our inputs to readily managed blocks. I'd suggest blocks of 1, 8 and 16.

And you try and call me special?

And you try and call me special?

And you try and call me special?

Negatives and counters:
Everyone hears the fear for the team stomp.
Counter: This might happen but since it is 16 versus 16 you have to blame yourself. If you are worried the other side is better, you have given up before the fight. Use tactics and learn that not all fights are going to be traditional wins. Read some Tsung Su, "Winning (a battle) is all about defining what is the best outcome and achieving it, this may even be a defeat on your terms." You can learn from defeat and advance beyond your competition.

Teams excluding randoms.
Counter: The fear of excluding is improbable because squad finder is always putting random people together. I use it all the time for FW. Open it up and at any given time there are 8 teams across multiple languages.

I don't want to be in a squad or team.
Counter: That is stating you don't like people in a team based shooter. Sorry, but that is not viable, especially for people on the forums. Learn to get along or go play solo PVE games. This game has people in it.

Please specify your negatives in single sentence outcomes. That will make rebuking or weighting easier.

That isn't a counter argument, it is a philosophical statement on being a good loser.

Balistyc - Uhm, the statement is to improve or change tactics even against steep odds. I FC some PCs and there are many tactics that can be deployed. If a sports team keeps beating your team, then make the next game about losing by less points by focusing defense, then as you improve the losing gap is smaller so you have less of a gap which you can turn into a win with some luck and skill. Stop focusing on the fact that you could win if the other team did not show up! Glory is achieved through victory which requires effort. Without effort there is no glory. You are saying this will be a stomp because I can't beat the other team if there are 16 of them talking. Well you have 16 talking, where is the advantage?



And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen?

So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW?

Balistyc - Penalized? You are going to be in a team of 16 no matter what. This says, let the team fill outside of queue, then join. How is that a penalty? It gives you control instead of Scotty. Team deploy would be waiting to make the 16 or lets say 10+ team then joining in and starting the match. You will need 10 minimum to start. So what is your true argument? You don't like being told you have to team up with 10+ more people? If so, then state that. Not a fear of team stomping.



I didn't see this point brought up by anyone, but sure, lets address it.

I shouldn't have to squad up to play FW. Squadding up should improve my experience(depending on the degree of douchebag you are required to listen to) but it should be a choice I make, not made for me. If I want to fight for the Amarr by myself, that should be good to go. If I want to join solo into minnie FW and intentionally drag down the team, AWOX'ing is real. Closing off gameplay options just so that some people can have an easier time arranging a stomp is going backwards.

Balistyc - This speaks more to the point that some people refuse to acknowledge they are on a team and want to continually try to kick a goal into their own net. You are seeing the team as a group of stompers. The average player hates these counter productive players as well, I do. Especially when they are trying to turn a stomp. If someone wants to go be an un-useful jerk, why would you build the game around that trolling aspect? That hurts everyone, not just the team stompers. It also hurts the team's moral because they see a group of blue berries pull that move and feel segregated and alone and wish harder for some teamwork. I don't support those trolls, why do you?



Now please address the ease with which a team deploy system would be able to be staggered and virtually assure dominant matchups, which has been my primary point, and which no one wants to refute. Putting in place an easily gamed system does no one any good, and it will be exploited, either by Kane or some other equally selfish group.

Balistyc -
Why do you think having 16 guys together makes them unbeatable? I agree this could happen but with the payoff being too low why would that be present. LP is hard to use to fund proto. Where is the driver or profit? - Counter is there is minimal incentive.

I haven't fought Kane but I do hate how a lot of the PC corps used to exploit the situation. They would rather hold hands than fight each other and potentially lose. That is the minority of the population is the truth of the matter.I am fighting for this in PC because I hate what ringers have done to that game mode. At least in FW the payout is nice and low so minimal coordination or jerks rigging the teams. If we have team deploy in FW there will be some monster teams, but we need to be willing to counter them. It is the price for playing FW instead of pubs. Why is that so bad? We may lose. It is a competition where someone loses. Join a channel and understand my view point please. Qsyncs happen today and no one feels exploited. If Kane gives us issues, lets deal with it then.

Uhm, the statement is to improve or change tactics even against steep odds. I FC some PCs and there are many tactics that can be deployed. If a sports team keeps beating your team, then make the next game about losing by less points by focusing defense, then as you improve the losing gap is smaller so you have less of a gap which you can turn into a win with some luck and skill. Stop focusing on the fact that you could win if the other team did not show up! Glory is achieved through victory which requires effort. Without effort there is no glory. You are saying this will be a stomp because I can't beat the other team if there are 16 of them talking. Well you have 16 talking, where is the advantage?

This speaks more to the point that some people refuse to acknowledge they are on a team and want to continually try to kick a goal into their own net. You are seeing the team as a group of stompers. The average player hates these counter productive players as well, I do. Especially when they are trying to turn a stomp. If someone wants to go be an un-useful jerk, why would you build the game around that trolling aspect? That hurts everyone, not just the team stompers. It also hurts the team's moral because they see a group of blue berries pull that move and feel segregated and alone and wish harder for some teamwork. I don't support those trolls, why do you?

Why do you think having 16 guys together makes them unbeatable? I agree this could happen but with the payoff being too low why would that be present. LP is hard to use to fund proto. Where is the driver or profit? - Counter is there is minimal incentive.

I haven't fought Kane but I do hate how a lot of the PC corps used to exploit the situation. They would rather hold hands than fight each other and potentially lose. That is the minority of the population is the truth of the matter.

Qsyncs happen today and no one feels exploited. If Kane gives us issues, lets deal with it then.