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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:25:00 -
[331] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one.
You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going.
You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms.
Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier?
Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now.
I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights.
Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast.
I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:28:00 -
[332] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The Attorney General wrote:To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one.
You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going.
You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms.
Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things.
Its funny how you proved me right immediately after I said.
Again Kain, nothing you are saying is not a benefit of 8 + 8 that is a benefit of 16. It is a bit weird how you talk about how easy Q syncing is and then say we need 16 because it makes it easier to get competitive battles.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 -
[333] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with.
And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed?
I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home.
This is needless drama queen BS, and also a strawman argument.
People don't have to exploit anything when they can social engineer people out of FW, which 16 man deploys will make possible. Managing your opponents is a much easier way to generate auto wins while not being a total scrub and AFK'ing in the MCC(props to whoever has the link for that video of Kain doing to the dip from back before Uprising). Remember when everyone in Imps was doing the MCC salsa? I do, so don't you dare to pretend that you give a **** about the game.
Keep it on point Kain, resorting to fallacies weakens your postion.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 -
[334] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:
1. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play.
2. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can.
3. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog.
1. Idea! On-the-fly raids. Have 16 guys? Open the starmap, find a district with an open raid window. Raid it.
2. "Paradise" seems a strong word for something we haven't seen yet. In fact, I've been assured by many a pubstomper in many a thread that if I run solo, I'll get stomped by a 4-man stompsquad as readily as I would a 6-man squad.
3. How is it that a change to pub squad size is a concession? Is it not more a response to extremely low match quality? Is extremely low match quality not a problem which is by-and-large to blame on stompsquads? I don't understand how fixing a problem is a concession, and I fail to see why CCP should feel the need to negotiate when it comes to fixing problems.
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:35:00 -
[335] - Quote
Deezy, that is exactly my point though.
I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth.
8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare.
Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:40:00 -
[336] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut?
I'm on the fence here. If your side of the argument has points to make, please spare us the platitudes and browbeating and deliver those points. The other side of the argument seems to think that you're looking for easier farm mechanics. If that isn't true, explain why it isn't true. If you truly want better fights, why not open up raids so PC-level play can be available around the clock?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:45:00 -
[337] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Deezy, that is exactly my point though.
I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth.
8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare.
Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment.
As I have said over and over. 8 + 8 makes it far more likely you will have a good squad with you thus eliminating the need for syncs while it is also still there for corps or channels who do want to sync. The little guy gets the ability to participate without ever having to take part in more than a 8 man squad if he does not feel like it.
How on earth is making it difficult to even get a match unless you are in a 16 man squad helping anyone but large corps and channels that are already full of FW players.
Which is better for the little guy?
Hop in a squad that is barely bigger than a squad now and get put in with another 8 man squad which happens thanks to squad priority. Even a person in a solo corp can fill up a 8 man squad in no time.
or
Wait for a 16 man squad to show up. Hope for it to fill in in some bearable amount of time. Search for battle and go up against a corp squad that is actually coordinated and get stomped. Then have the squad leader get mad at everyone that did not perform to his standards and kick them so the whole process can start over.
Sure you will say they can just start a squad of their own but what happens when there are 20 16 man squads sitting in squad finder so none of them can even fill up so they are just stuck waiting forever.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:45:00 -
[338] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things.
What is this lack of experience you speak of? I don't play FW in your syncs because they are about as fun as watching flies mate. Well, that and you personally are such a raging shitler that I would rather bunch myself in the face with a rusty gauntlet than listen to you and your cadre of nut guzzlers try hard.
The only good thing getting in your q syncs can produce is the subtle hilarity at listening to your scrub team complain about getting core naded, or calling people scrubs for using the various FOTMs.
Playing against those stacks is more fun for me. I like taking tanks out of your pilots until they stop showing up in the syncs. Only takes a match or two.
No, I don't go looking for the easiest possible matches all the time. That is why I don't join into your stupid team syncs. Your horrible voice and attitude, your folks complete inability to appreciate the irony of them complaining about scrub tactics, and the fact that your people fold and wilt if they take a little bit of a loss is why your q syncs are not worth my time or presence.
Kain Spero wrote:
If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast.
And this is why you are a piece of crap.
The Attorney General wrote:
To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one.
Stop rehashing your singular defense that team syncs can already be done.
You still haven't answered this question:
Why should the limited Dev resources be expended on making your LP farming easier?
If you were this much of a simpleton when you were on the CPM, no wonder the game went the way it did.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:48:00 -
[339] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut?
Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back.
Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:53:00 -
[340] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field.
Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better.
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:56:00 -
[341] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The Attorney General wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field. Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better. So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
Going out of your way to shutdown exploits includes farming billions of ISK while you are a CPM and can directly talk to CCP?
I am not saying I know they would have listened or whatever but it seems like the profitability in shutting down exploits is incredibly high.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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Tyrunis Bloodstone
Anubis Prime Syndicate
82
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Posted - 2015.07.02 12:58:00 -
[342] - Quote
Guys, let's keep the talks centered around TD instead of monopolies that either one of us could have gained if our social skills, vision, planning and execution were exceptional.
Its about what's best for the growth of FW. Not the ruthless nature of New Eden |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:05:00 -
[343] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
1. If PC-level players want better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand?
2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs?
3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy.
4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely?
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:07:00 -
[344] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:
Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better.
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
Holy Christ on a cracker, are you huffing glue?
You think people who have been here since closed beta forget what you have gotten up to Kain? Don't pretend that you are not the same scumbag who played touch your toes in the MCC for the month leading up to uprising. Don't pretend that you didn't have most of Imps doing the same at that time because you guys were bored waiting for the release date but were not willing to sacrifice your SP edge before PC started.
We won't even get into the whole blue donut BS, and since you were technically in charge of NS while they locked for months, that could be on you as well.
No, you have been either associated with, lead, or condoned all the large scale exploits that you could, and no amount of you saying otherwise will change that. Your actions, remembered by people who watched it all go down cannot be countered by your dreamy assertions that you are fighting the good fight. Self delusion is dangerous. Be wary.
I didn't personally attack you, I just listed why I don't join your q syncs. I don't play with whiny chicks who can't take a loss without freaking out. That fits most of the people you play with, and it fits you to a T.
Honestly, Ydubbs kids cry less than you do. I just wish that Dubbs would tell you to shut up when you need it.
You can't whitewash you being an exploiting scrub, anyone who was around remembers.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:10:00 -
[345] - Quote
Tyrunis Bloodstone wrote:Guys, let's keep the talks centered around TD instead of monopolies that either one of us could have gained if our social skills, vision, planning and execution were exceptional.
Its about what's best for the growth of FW. Not the ruthless nature of New Eden
Yeah, but Kain just wants to keep bringing it back to how he can already q sync, so the discussion gets stuck pretty easily.
If Kain want to defend his position he can try, but he has no argument other than "I want my farming to be simpler! NOAW! Unacceptable for me to not get what I want!"
Which, although hilarious to read in a mock of Kains losing a PC voice, isn't a great position from which a strong debate will occur.
Until Kain starts actually responding to points, this discussion is DOA. But I'll keep providing some reality to Kains BS because he clearly needs to stop drinking his own kool aid.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:25:00 -
[346] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
... do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:27:00 -
[347] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
Yet again questions get ignored because they do not match the agenda.
1. Exactly
2. This one will try to be answered with the SP cap which is still somewhere in the area of 7500 WP and there is no answer to the LP.
3. The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance.
4. Exactly what I have been trying to say. Things get specifically messed up when you have any squad from 9 to 15 players.
5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:31:00 -
[348] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand?
2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs?
3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy.
4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely?
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate?
6. Why should limited developer resources be spent on this alteration of other improvements to the game?
Just added my own question to the list for Kain to answer. Not that he will without deflecting, throwing out a strawman or maybe even a red herring.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
11
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:32:00 -
[349] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there.
I honestly don't know the answer. Even when the Devs are careful, patches/updates and even simple balance tweaks don't always return the desired effect. Why rush a huge change through when we have the option to iterate? Why not move forward with 8-man as planned, work out all the kinks and then discuss (from an informed position) the ups and downs to 16-man?
Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:38:00 -
[350] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:deezy dabest wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. I honestly don't know the answer. Even when the Devs are careful, patches/updates and even simple balance tweaks don't always return the desired effect. Why rush a huge change through when we have the option to iterate? Why not move forward with 8-man as planned, work out all the kinks and then discuss (from an informed position) the ups and downs to 16-man?
I am on the side of 8 + 8 not only as a test but as a fact that this should not even be getting discussed right now because I think it will work out wonderfully for FW and for the community as a whole. If 8 + 8 proves to not work anywhere near the way I am thinking then I was wrong and so be it.
The "leaving it alone cause we all know this one" was really just a shot at Kain because his entire argument has been that we should have it right now because it is "already in there" and the community wants it.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:39:00 -
[351] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand?
2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs?
3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy.
4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely?
5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first?
First off thanks, Adipem. I'll do my best to answer from my perspective.
1.
It has more to do with players outside of PC though. You have very dedicated faction warfare players that are just as dedicated as planetary conquest players. I think that raids are going to be essential long-term for PC, but they aren't even off the backlog at this point. Really though i think FW deserves as much of a chance to be an end-game as PC.
2.
For starters boredom and secondly there are already mechanics in place that clamp down on boosting behavior (No SP gain after X WP). Plus a match can only end so quickly and the LP payouts are a static number. Plus there is nothing you can do with 16 man team deploy that you wouldn't be able to do with 8 man squads so in an attempt to stop a perceived threat raised by 32 players you don't actually put in any barrier and negatively impact those that would engage the game mode in a legitimate fashion.
In effect it comes out like bad DRM having a negative impact on legitimate consumers while doing nothing to stop those potentially engaging in negative activity. CCP has been taking a much tougher stance on boosting and can monitor match behavior. I'm sure this kind of behavior could be pretty easy to detect on CCP's end and those doing it dealt with accordingly.
3.
Newbro opens up squad finder and sees a platoon sitting at 14/16 and joins. Alternatively a newbro creates his own platoon and sets it to broadcast.
4.
Leither would explain this better than I. It has to do with queueing theory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory ). It's the same reason that things like 3 man squads get slotted into FW battles currently. You have a rolling population made up of a variety of numbers and the team builder combines those like lego pieces pretty effectively since it doesn't have to do heavy lifting like calculating MU rating that we see in public matches.
5.
One of this biggest mistakes I made on CPM was trusting that a player market would soon follow the initial deployment of LP payouts instead of ISK in FW. This has been partially corrected with the reintroduction of ISK to FW. We still don't have trading of FW items well over a year after LP was implemented (APEX suit trading coming soon TM?).
My biggest problem with 8 + 8 is that it doesn't open up the accessibility of team deploy to those outside corps and those in custom player channels. In order to execute a team deploy you would still be force to coms up in a channel an do a countdown and deployment just like we have today. All 8 + 8 does is reduce the hassle to current players that sync rather than opening up team deploy to those that have no idea how the mechanic works.
This is situation where I would rather CCP get the numbers on full team deploy first and then walk it back if needed. I'm fairly confident that it would increase the viability of the game mode rather than hinder it. There is of-course no way to be 100% sure until it's actually implemented. Since you already have q-sycs running for hours on end I don't see this vast danger in implementation that some in this thread would have you think would be the case. We already have team deploy it just lacks an in-game UI.
Since we already have this syncing CCP has all the data in world IMO regarding syncs run out of corp chats and player channels. 8 + 8 would just be more of the same. It's time to see what the effect is when you allow a full team to be dynamically created without these hindrances in the squad finder.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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SirManBoy
Molon Labe.
RUST415
910
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Posted - 2015.07.02 13:49:00 -
[352] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:SirManBoy wrote:
1. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play.
2. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can.
3. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog.
1. Idea! On-the-fly raids. Have 16 guys? Open the starmap, find a district with an open raid window. Raid it. 2. "Paradise" seems a strong word for something we haven't seen yet. In fact, I've been assured by many a pubstomper in many a thread that if I run solo, I'll get stomped by a 4-man stompsquad as readily as I would a 6-man stompsquad. I hope they're wrong, because that doesn't sound like much an improvement. Much less, paradise. 3. How is it that a change to pub squad size is a concession? Is it not more a response to extremely low match quality? Is extremely low match quality not a problem which is by-and-large to blame on stompsquads? I don't understand how fixing a problem is a concession, and I fail to see why CCP should feel the need to negotiate when it comes to fixing problems.
1. Sounds great! How long will we have to wait for that? According to my watch, I've waited about 2.5 years for persistent team deployments already. Also, I'm not confident that any raiding system is going to offer truly instant and unlimited opportunities for team deployments. That's what proponents of team deploy in FW are after.
2. The matchmaking system should be far better at doing its job once it starts working with fireteam-sized building blocks. Not only are these groups going to be weaker than their 6-man predecessors, but they should also find themselves competing with and against more groupings of equal size. Going solo will always have its risks, but teams should be built more evenly than ever before because of this change.
3. Losing 6-man squads has both benefits and costs. Dropping them should make public matches far more competitive, but there's no denying the fact that we are losing a great tool for in match social interaction across a variety of match types. They are an unfortunate but necessary casualty for the greater good of the community. That said, full team deploy in FW would at least give something substantial back to the portion of the community that values highly coordinated play and fun social experiences. However, jumping up to 8-man squads in a world of never ending skirm matches falls a bit short. It doesn't elevate the experience enough to make up for the fact that it's a single match type. 16-man deployments, however, would be a game-changer. You can build an entirely different culture and experience in an otherwise very limited game mode with a tool like that. |
The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:04:00 -
[353] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:
This is situation where I would rather CCP get the numbers on full team deploy first and then walk it back if needed. I'm fairly confident that it would increase the viability of the game mode rather than hinder it.
6.
Dev resources have already been expended. Platoons exists in Planetary Conquest come 1.2 and can be added to FW with essentially no Dev effort.
Of course you would rather have a several months window where you can farm unopposed. That almost goes without saying, but thanks for covering it.
As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation.
Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now?
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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deezy dabest
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:04:00 -
[354] - Quote
Rebutals:
1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins.
2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment.
3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance.
This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad.
4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely.
5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC.
It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are.
Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that.
Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident"
Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced.
As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it.
Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:06:00 -
[355] - Quote
The Attorney General wrote:
As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation.
Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now?
I would say have a dev finish off both of these changes while finishing a cup of coffee. I think that'd make for quite a productive cup of joe! 
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:08:00 -
[356] - Quote
SirManBoy wrote:
They are an unfortunate but necessary casualty for the greater good of the community.
And this attitude is one that Kain will never understand.
Regardless of anything else, you can always count on Kain arguing for changes that serve his interests, and everyone else can go pound sand.
Rarely do the interests of the NF core coincide with the health of the game.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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The Attorney General
3
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:10:00 -
[357] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:The Attorney General wrote:
As to the second point, a single minute spent writing code to get this done would be a waste while we still have the Gal Lag Facility in the rotation.
Both take about the same amount of effort according to you, but team deploy needs to happen right now?
I would say have a dev finish off both of these changes while finishing a cup of coffee. I think that'd make for quite a productive cup of joe!
Would you agree that removing that horrible map would have a greater impact on the overall enjoyment of the game for all players than adjustments to FW ahead of already incoming changes?
I would suppose that more people suffer from a poor experience because of that map than the small group of stompers who need a full team to not get rolled.
Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
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IgniteableAura
Pro Hic Immortalis
2
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:13:00 -
[358] - Quote
I'd say you can team deploy in FW but it costs command points...
My Youtube
Biomassed Podcast
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
710
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:14:00 -
[359] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kain Spero wrote:
So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy?
1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? To quote Kevall Longstride, "I do support full TD in FW but I prefer the iterative approach we have to make sure we don't break something first." Why is Kevall wrong and why shouldn't we iterate?
1. Current PC 2.0 i being designed to encourage more participation by smaller corps, FW is the introduction of organised team play for players (give 4 man pubs) and the gateway for corps to become PC ready
2. The same as current - none
3. Squad finder, no longer need to voice in faction channels (what are they? -newbro)
4. More participation in FW, the same conditions as current (a sync is not always 16)
5. Dust does not have long left in the current format and FW is hardly thriving, therefore it is worth the risk to reinvigorate it
Do other things need to be considered? Yes, leaving match, but CCP deployed matchmaking in pubs without giving that much thought
ADS Ramming Revenge!
Plasma Cannon Rampage
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Kain Spero
Negative-Feedback
5
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Posted - 2015.07.02 14:16:00 -
[360] - Quote
Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here.
I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through:
Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs.
This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy.
Owner of Spero Escrow Services
Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
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