DUST Search - 4 man squads in Pubs? Then give us Team Deploy in FW!!!!

True Adamance wrote:

No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:

True Adamance wrote:

No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote:

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In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their ****, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field.

Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out.

More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the **** about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid **** is hilarious.

Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck?

My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew?

I do understand that perspective. Surely then you might see the inverse which is mine.

Praetoria Imperialis Excubatoris, my alliance has made FW their home for almost a decade now, and FW in Dust has the potential to actually mean something to EVE pilots and my alliance. I want to stop being that charity case of a division that does nothing to help them. I want to actually contribute in a meaningful way to their efforts up there.

FW is also my favourite mode. I don't want to see it bastardised into Public Matches 2.0 for the sake of players who don't care enough to get themselves sorted. Nor do I really want to see it become Corp Battles 2.0 either. But FW needs a real identity, it needs narrative, and it needs room for agency and those who want to take it seriously to take it seriously.


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No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:22:00 - [1] - Quote The problems I see with letting platoons into FW are: 1. When you've got a full 16 man team, or even a not quite filled 12-15, there isn't really room for anyone else to get in on that faction fight. You're locking people out of a match because a corporation wanted to grind some faction gear. 2. If two 16 man teams are set up on opposing factions to 'kick start' each other, it's just going to be those same 16 man teams killing each other again and again every single fight until: A. They get bored of stomping the not as good team. B. They get tired of being stomped by a better team. C. They lose enough members of their team who have actual lives that they can't continue fighting and they don't want to recruit randoms on the squad finder. 3. Your corporations are kick starting factional warfare? That's great! But what happens when your corporation backs out for one reason or another? Suddenly we're either back to where we started with needing to pick up strays for a five minute wait for a single match, or we're up against the other team who hasn't gotten the message that your corporation has left the field. Which means they'll either get bored of less competition and leave themselves, making it even harder to find a match, or they'll **** their god damn pants at the easy pickings, making it even harder to win a match, making the strays who went in for their factional gear drop out and make it, again, harder on both sides. You guys have eight man squads now. You will be fine not having a full 16 man team to completely wipe the opposition. And if you absolutely need your full team to win, it's a lot easier to sync up now since two squads will fill up the scoreboard, rather than two and two-thirds of a squad.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:48:00 - [2] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Two people out of however many others who wanted to get in on a factional match, but can't because a corporation took up nearly an entire scoreboard and there aren't enough extras for a second battle to happen. Seriously. Eight man squads are fine. Other people want to play your game, too.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 131	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:19:00 - [3] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? Let's look at it this way. A 14 man platoon deploys. There is only room for two more people on that team to join. Sure, two people get in, but who all is excluded? The solo players who weren't lucky enough to be picked by the game. The people who are squadding up to try to get into a match who have more than two people. And why form a squad of only two people? Who would even do that? So. If there is a 14 man platoon getting into a factional, anyone with a squad of 3-15 players isn't going to be able to get in. They are being blocked from the match. And do you know how many people there are going to be that have squad sizes ranging from 3-15? Nearly all of them. There are going to be squads from different regions, and if you don't speak Spanish you're not going to join a Spanish team, right? You won't join a Japanese team if you can't talk with them. If you don't have a mic, you're obviously not joining the squad that says (Mics only). There are going to be a wide variety of squad sizes in the squad finder, and very few of them are going to fit that exact number to fill in the gap that your buddies in your platoon caused when they had to leave. And the rest are being left to hang. There will be very, very few, if any, squads that are even in the double digits. Even fewer that work effectively as a team. Especially ones that are made up of randoms. A bigger problem is that a lot of those squads are doing different factionals. Even if you find a good sized squad or platoon, they may not be doing a factional you want to do. Or they may be doing several factionals, like Min/Gal. But what if you do Am/Gal Or Min/Cal? You don't want the chance of getting pulled into a battle against your factions. You can't join them. But it's not so much that those people can't get into that one match. It's not that at all. It's that there aren't enough people who do factional warfare in general, let alone the appropriate factionals to get a battle started, for decent matches to even happen when that one corporation that is starting up matches all by itself decides to leave. Allowing platoons into FW will pretty much ensure that only corporations are going to be playing because corporations are going to be the most frequent players and they'll be the most organized because they all know each other and communicate. You won't be able to get into a FW unless you're in a corporation that actually wants you in that battle. It's already frustrating enough going up against full corporations in FW. Do you know how much more frustrating it would be to be in a corp that does FW battles, only to be denied because 'Sorry, I don't think you're good enough and I don't want you throwing the match for us'. Locked out of FW not just because corporations would own them, but because someone else's opinion of you isn't high enough to let you play with them. 8 man squads at least give a chance for other people to get into the fight. And it's a much easier number to get to, as well as easier to fit onto a scoreboard that already has a few people in it. I don't want FW to become a cheap alternative to PC.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:21:00 - [4] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. I play entirely support roles. Rep logi, speed hacker, and forge gun AV, and I swap between them throughout the match as needed. (I'm considering AV support in this case because I play it defensively, keeping enemy vehicles back rather than seeking them out for destruction, and use the forge gun to counter snipe where I can.) I don't do much killing. But matches, Faction War and pub, have been won damn near entirely because of me. I'm not saying all of them or even many, but a decent few. And I am a solo player. When the enemy has all the objectives I drop an uplink nearby, run in, grab the hack, drop an RE, run out for the next objective and bomb the reds who try to counter-hack, giving my team members a few more seconds to get into position and hunker down, while I take the next objective that's less defended now that they need men to take the lost objective back. And I continue this cycle. I keep out of the way, and keep the objectives out of the enemy's hands. This is how I help as a solo player. When my team is under heavy fire and I'm a logi, I pick them up when they drop and I keep as many running and gunning as possible, not just the heavies. The machine gun may be an infantry dropper, but two or three people alone can't hold a position very well, and certainly can't keep eyes open for gankers on all sides. If you're missing armor you get reps. That's it. I'm not the best logi, but I know I'm a good one. In nearly all of these situations I know that objective would be lost without me if it gets pushed with any decent amount of force. I rarely see a logi unless it's a pub domination match and they're farming WP off a heavy. I guess they see me with the rep tool and think I have the whole team covered. I am dedicated as a logi and do not skimp on the gear I put on it like I do my other suits. I don't give one single ** how much ISK I lose or how much SP I gain. I do my best to keep my team alive. This is how I help as a solo player. If an enemy has a tank on the field or a dropship in the skies and they're closing in, removing it from the map is important. The obvious conclusions are that the tank is going to suppress or attempt to take out the team, and the dropship is going to plant uplinks in otherwise impossible to reach places. And if there aren't more pressing matters to attend to, like a swarm of incoming reds, I go AV and try to take it out or keep it back as soon as possible. When I know there's a sniper watching the field I go AV so I can take the first hit if they catch me scoping them out to determine their location and take them out when I come back after the second, if, hopefully, there even is a second. A decent sniper isn't going to let you live long enough to have a firefight with them and a heavy won't move nearly fast enough to escape a second shot, assuming they survive the first. When I respawn I find a good position and take them out. This is how I help as a solo player. You could argue that the matches would go more smoothly if I were in a squad. You could argue I would do better myself in a squad if I had proper support and could communicate what I was doing. Hell, you could even be pessimistic and argue that by going solo and hacking objectives I'm ruining carefully laid plans of the people running squads in that match. My point here is that you shouldn't discredit a solo player just because they're being independent in a team game. A solo player who does well against a team of well organized adversaries is someone I'd want on my side, ability to communicate or no. Now if you were specifically talking about solo players fresh from academy in militia gear wandering into FW and having no clue what they're getting into, yes. That's fine. They shouldn't be there and they'll learn that soon enough. But they shouldn't be denied the chance to learn, just like I shouldn't be denied the chance to play. Bright Cloud wrote:** And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. Yes, that's nice. I appreciate that. I enjoy Faction War the times I'm able to get in. Never had a bad match (except against Cap. Acq.). But just because a group of people are kickstarting Faction War doesn't mean they should get to decide how the game works. And if it's that same group of people 'keeping FW alive' it doesn't mean the game mode should cater to them. It means something is wrong and it needs to be fixed so it's a more easily accessible game mode. Faction War shouldn't be on life support thanks to a small group of dedicated players. And 16 man squads would ruin the game mode for a lot of people who don't have many connections or friends in Dust. It's a team game, yes, but you're already helping your team by supressing oncoming enemies, dropping uplinks/hives, scanning, hacking objectives, etc. And you can do that just fine solo. I am a team player. I love Faction War. I love the challenge. It's a hell of a lot more fun than pubs. I just don't want to be forced to squad up to play. And I really do think that allowing 16 man squads will cause certain corporations and groups to completely own Faction Warfare.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:24:00 - [5] - Quote No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: TL;DR: I am a dedicated team player who genuinely wants to help the team, but prefers to run solo and doesn't want to be forced into squadding up just to play a game mode. I also think that allowing 16 man squads would allow certain corporations or groups to basically own FW.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:28:00 - [6] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:52:00 - [7] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: Kain Spero wrote: If you have the knowledge and capability to squad and you choose not to in a game mode that was designed with the intent of catering to more and more organized players you have no one to blame but yourself. I don't think you read my post. That's fine. It's a lot of **** to go through to build up to a small point. But please at least read the last two paragraphs. Again the paranoia surrounding team deploy allowing a small group to take over FW is downright silly. With the tools to sync easily and properly no matter your language and no matter if you have a mic or anything else means that the current sync groups will get outnumbered by those that are able to easily organize using the system. I'm not saying that small groups are going to willfully, or even knowingly, take control of FW. If a full 16 man squad can be deployed quickly and easily all at once, it'd be a simple thing for that team to just be better than the ragtag randoms they may face and make said randoms drop out. The problem isn't that we won't be able to build up a sixteen man team at all. It's that we'd be doing it with strangers from squad finder who all want to do their own thing or want to take lead and have no respect for one another while the people who have already been syncing up together for months know the drill, know their places, know how to do their jobs, and know how to take orders. It isn't that we can't match them in numbers. It's that, if they wanted to, they really, seriously could basically own FW without even trying or meaning to. And the only people who could match them are another committed, organized team. Which you aren't going to get from squad finder randoms. Giving everyone the tools to make a 16 man squad doesn't even the playing field, it makes things cumbersome for anyone who isn't already experienced in leading large groups of people and easier for the ones who are. And the ones who are are the ones who already sync, and the ones who aren't are damn near everyone else. And the players without experience aren't going to suddenly gain it by running factionals with randoms, because one, it'd be frustrating as hell, two, leading isn't everyone's gig, and three, if your randoms don't want to take orders they're not going to take orders and things are going to fall apart, regardless. In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their ****, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 02:57:00 - [8] - Quote True Adamance wrote: To address Gaston's post ...... there is no doubt you are doing something. However as much as you demand others understand your perspective of your efforts in FW you too must attempt to understand the perspective others who play the mode, especially those like myself who take the mode very seriously, and make it as competitive as possible. In any instance where I could choose you as a solo player or any other player willing to communicate and function with the squad the choice is immediately clear. This is not because I want to force you out of the game mode but because I want to ensure those in my session do have a firm grasp of the tactics we will be using and can relay information back to the squad leader to then act upon. This voiced player is a significantly more 'reliable' asset to the squad. And that reliability is what is important. Though as Kain said.....and I have no idea why I am agreeing with him today..... if you enter into FW and are one of those individuals who are complaining about organised groups you do have no one to blame but yourself. These are players organising themselves into groups in 'LOW SECURITY SPACE'.....my god the sheer amount of tears that would flow if Dusters ever attempted to fly those systems EVE side with the sensibilities they currently have.... I have absolutely no qualms with organized groups. The other team has a good squad running together and my team is all Final Fantasy one man army wanna-bes, myself included? That's fine. I'll take my beating. I ran solo by choice. I have a problem with organized groups of 16 people being able to deploy all at once. It's one thing to fight a squad of just six, or even the upcoming eight people. Fighting a full group of 16 is silly. Factional Warfare is competitive. That's fine. I get that. It's why I play. But Factional Warfare isn't PC. I'm not running factionals to fight against a full team of Capital Acquisition.
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:17:00 - [9] - Quote True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew?
No-one-ganks like-Gaston Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 136	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:42:00 - [10] - Quote True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: True Adamance wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: [ In short, a 16 man squad of randoms could not possibly stand up to a 16 man squad of people who already know their **, and making it easier for 16 man squads to run together is just going to make it easier for close knitted teams to own the playing field. Yes. An organised 16 man team will likely and ideally should always beat a disorganised team. This is the purpose of team work. That being said I understand why you are concerned about team deploy though it does not stop me from wanting to try it out. More than winning though its about playing the game with some very cool people who also fight for the same faction. Hell listening to 16 random people shoot the about Emperor Jamal and how he dominated the inter-Empire basket ball leagues of New Eden....amongst of stupid ** is hilarious. Can you see why I think 16 man squads for FW is a bad thing, then? If a 16 man squad of randoms can't hope to stand up against an organized corp or FW channel group, that FW basically becomes a corporation playground? And it's either join a strong FW corp and hope they pick you out of their line-up of favorites or tough luck? My fears may seem silly, but as someone with no connections in Dust but still enjoys FW, it feels like my favorite game mode would be taken from me in favor of the more 'hardcore' players. When, really, do you actually need a full 16 man squad to enjoy yourselves in a match? Is there anything at all wrong with just going '8 is better than 6' and adding two more people to your regular crew? I do understand that perspective. Surely then you might see the inverse which is mine. Praetoria Imperialis Excubatoris, my alliance has made FW their home for almost a decade now, and FW in Dust has the potential to actually mean something to EVE pilots and my alliance. I want to stop being that charity case of a division that does nothing to help them. I want to actually contribute in a meaningful way to their efforts up there. FW is also my favourite mode. I don't want to see it bastardised into Public Matches 2.0 for the sake of players who don't care enough to get themselves sorted. Nor do I really want to see it become Corp Battles 2.0 either. But FW needs a real identity, it needs narrative, and it needs room for agency and those who want to take it seriously to take it seriously. I do see it, but, much like you don't agree with me, I can't quite agree with you. I'm a broken record by now, but I really don't think 16 man squads would be good for the game mode. I guess if Factionals ever actually get their platoons we'll see what comes of it. Thank you for actually talking with me, by the way, rather than simply saying 'no, you're wrong and stupid'. Even though I may very well be one or both of those things.