DUST Search - 4 man squads in Pubs? Then give us Team Deploy in FW!!!!

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4 man squads in Pubs? Then give us Team Deploy in FW!!!!

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deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 14:52:00 - [1] - Quote Team deploy could be very damaging to new player ability to participate if no changes to the queue system were made. What you have to remember is that the FW system places priority on squads meaning that if randoms were searching there would be a high probability of them just getting passed over many times until they become cannon fodder for a 16 man team. 8 man squads are going to hurt queue syncs and they are going to hurt new player interaction with FW. Yet again FW players are left responding to a half ass fix because PC gets all of the attention without any real merit to that. As I have been doing lately I will toss out my usual rant of "Get NPC orbitals OUT of FW before you do anything else" Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:04:00 - [2] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:22:00 - [3] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: I'm against any queuing system where full teams can go against not full teams. And making two separate FacWar queues doesn't help anyone. With any luck, we'll get a raiding mechanic that allows full team action with short notice in PC. Factional is Null-Sec... Don't take Eden out of New Eden Factional is LOW sec. Dust does not currently have an existence in null sec. If we did have an existence in null sec it would be in PC not in FW. FW is not even null sec in Eve. As I pointed out above 16 man squads in FW would break things even worse than 8 man squads is going to. It is quite unfortunate that FW just gets the scraps of changes that fall over from other game modes. Break it how? You can already deploy a full team to FW right now it's just gated behind a cumbersome methodology that limits team deploy to those that know how to execute it rather than it being as straightforward as "start platoon, deploy platoon". All you are doing by trying to limit platoons deploying to FW is protect the organized syncs that are already there! More syncs in the mode means more competition in the mode! You will always have public play that offers full match making protection to smaller groups and solo players. It breaks it because in the current system squads hold absolute priority based on size for who gets into the contract. Allowing 16 man squads to hit deploy on FW would give them the contract every time and shut out every person that is not in a 16 man squad effectively killing FW for anyone that does not know the FW channels or does not get the tap from the FC of those channels. Basically allowing 16 man squads would require a much needed reworking of the queue for fw which is obviously not happening anytime soon thanks to PC being the focus. What people are also missing is the fact that 8 man squads are also going to nerf most queue syncs because of how that system works. The uneven numbers is what kept 16 man queue syncs going because we were able to build squads that forced our team to take the contract. To give a basic example of that lets say that an 8 man squad is already searching therefore they have priority based on the timer. 2 8 man squads from XYZ channel hit search trying to sync. which ever of those squad leads hit search first is going to enter the match with that 8 man squad that was already searching while the other squad becomes the one with next priority. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 15:37:00 - [4] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: No-one-ganks like-Gaston wrote: The problems I see with letting platoons into FW are: 1. When you've got a full 16 man team, or even a not quite filled 12-15, there isn't really room for anyone else to get in on that faction fight. You're locking people out of a match because a corporation wanted to grind some faction gear. 2. If two 16 man teams are set up on opposing factions to 'kick start' each other, it's just going to be those same 16 man teams killing each other again and again every single fight until: A. They get bored of stomping the not as good team. B. They get tired of being stomped by a better team. C. They lose enough members of their team who have actual lives that they can't continue fighting and they don't want to recruit randoms on the squad finder. 3. Your corporations are kick starting factional warfare? That's great! But what happens when your corporation backs out for one reason or another? Suddenly we're either back to where we started with needing to pick up strays for a five minute wait for a single match, or we're up against the other team who hasn't gotten the message that your corporation has left the field. Which means they'll either get bored of less competition and leave themselves, making it even harder to find a match, or they'll **** their god damn pants at the easy pickings, making it even harder to win a match, making the strays who went in for their factional gear drop out and make it, again, harder on both sides. You guys have eight man squads now. You will be fine not having a full 16 man team to completely wipe the opposition. And if you absolutely need your full team to win, it's a lot easier to sync up now since two squads will fill up the scoreboard, rather than two and two-thirds of a squad. Thats not right you still would get deployed with small squads/solo. Nope, he hit hit the nail right on the head. In FW squads have priority based on size. Currently a 6 man squad gets priority over a 4 man squad for example. As much as I want to see team deploy in FW I also do not want to see it destroyed or even worse see it become some exclusive club for those of us that have the ability to round up 15 other people. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 16:02:00 - [5] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: It isn't time to rip off the band aid just yet. We need to get the scaling right on the OB's. FW OB support is different from other OB's because the Eve pilots get faction LP. Full teams will gain the OB's faster meaning Eve pilots will be getting more LP or rather farming them for Factional Gear for sale in Eve for ISK. A business opportunity that I'm sure hasn't escaped someone's attention. Obviously you only understand half of how Eve OB support works. You are correct that payment for pilots is based on orbitals dropped. What you are incorrect on is the fact that WP has anything to do with that. Eve orbitals happen as soon as the satellite is captured which takes 3 minutes assuming no enemy shows up and contests it. NPC orbitals absolutely DESTROYED the Eve link. I covered this subject in depth during the FW event that Maken Tosch hosted. Dust players having no idea when these are available ensures that most pilots will not bother with attempting orbital support. The only thing that needs to be "ripped off" is NPC orbitals getting ripped out of FW like how it was originally intended to work. That is the only way you will even have a chance at Eve players starting to care again. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:39:00 - [6] - Quote Come on guys you are making me really hate myself for agreeing so strongly with CCP on this one. I want team deploy as well but its just not good for FW or for the game with what we have right now. The people saying we are just protecting newbs are seriously missing out on the big picture here. It is not about protecting newbs it is about keeping FW playable at all. What happens when no newbs are searching so your 14 man squad can not get a match thanks to no one to fill it in? The people that can not seem to comprehend the numbers and logistics here should just be glad of one thing. You only have to sync 2 squads now instead of 3 so there was an improvement. I seriously hope that I am incorrect about what 8 man squads is going to do to queue syncs but that is something we as a community can very easily work around and has massive upside in that work around but I am not going to go into that because it is all theory at this point. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:50:00 - [7] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? There is no mistaking anything here. If a 14 man squad hits search in the current system every single squad with 3 people or more is left to sit in the searching for battle queue until they are lucky enough to have enough people create 16. Oh wait, while they were waiting to get lucky a 16 man squad hit search so they have been bumped again along with the other squad of 6 that was searching as well. So no there is no mistaking anything. Allowing 16 man squads to search will BLOCK anyone that is not participating in those squads. Do you seriously want all of FW to be controlled by a few FCs in a few channels? If so I will gladly revive AmarrOne and show all of you exactly how to block anyone from playing if they do not want to follow us. Damn that sounds like fun. None of the top players queuing minmatar because they are so busy protecting their stats and nothing but brutal stomps brought down by my new ability to stop anyone from playing Amarr FW that I do not want to play. I am getting more convinced now that we are talking about outright exploiting the entire game mode for the good of the Empire. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 17:56:00 - [8] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:03:00 - [9] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Look when it comes to team deploy in FW (low sec) this is what needs to be said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuHfVn_cfHU If they "DO IT" I will gladly pillage FW in exactly the way I described and there will not be a single thing any of you can do about it. Making me and only the people I choose the richest people in the game would be amazing. For clarity I know we would never reach the highest amounts of ISK but we would have the steadiest flow of massive ISK to be seen since corps first learned how to lock districts. If you start a sync then others will to again the whole point. Right now you have a barrier to entry that limits the competition. Seriously, if I have 1 sync what's the probability it will go against another? Now if I have 2? 3? 50? Get the picture? I already said the system needs to be reworked. The argument here is about allowing 16 man squads in right now which I can personally promise will burn FW to the ground. I have proposed many fixes that would give everyone here exactly what they wanted with some tweaking to make any of them work within what the Shanghai team has the ability to do but no one gives a flying **** about that they just want to get butt hurt when a right call is actually made that does not line up with what they think should happen. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:10:00 - [10] - Quote Nocturnal Soul wrote: All I see are people posting the extreme negatives on both sides. While I see the negatives in platoon syncs in FW it will ultimately improve the organization of serious players looking for a fight or those starter corps looking to test their might, that alone is reason enough in my book to allow this. Besides FW was never a place for the solo player its always been a set of your bros verses the other. It's also like that in EvE, if you want to chill stay in high sec if you wanna prosper anywhere else you better have someone watching your 6. There is no real negative to keeping it to 8 man squads. It is an improvement over the current system and there is going to be some great side effects if I am right about how the even numbers will affect syncs. The only people complaining about 8 man squads are the ones unable to realize that things are getting improved and Ratatti and team made the right call. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:18:00 - [11] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again you already have 16 man groups able to deploy. CCP coded in a workaround to make it happen long ago. Why do you want to keep others from going against the already established q-syncs? I would LOVE to see 16 people deploy together with no extra effort. I would love even more to see us be able to have battles that are nothing more than a PC in with no barrier to entry and under the flag of the races militias. When I finally die out of this game it will be having always believed that FW should be the real end game in Dust. The problem is, like I have said over and over, allowing 16 man squads to hit search within the current system will block anyone that is not "in the know" on FW chats or given the tap by FCs. How is this good for anyone? It shuts out newbies completely and sends everyone that does not feel like sitting around waiting on a 16 man team to be formed running back to pubs. The real question is why is everyone so impassioned with seeing FW be totally put into the hands of a few people because CCP does not have the time to create a whole new system thanks to being busy on Planetary Conquest. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:27:00 - [12] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: I am in agreement here... team deploy for PC only is silly. Faction warfare q-syncs are a real thing, and with channels popping up daily, FW has started to be reborn, with more and more players in it every day. This game mode should, unequivocally, be allowed team deploy. They can and even easier than before. Before you had to organize squads of 6/6/4 and sync all three hoping that your squad of 4 did not get pulled into a different battle. Now you only have to sync two squads. Whether it will make actual Q syncs between those squads easier or harder is something that I do not have the numbers to figure out but I can already tell you that no matter what it makes FW better for everyone this way. It really is the best call for now until FW can get some actual love and grow to what it should be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:33:00 - [13] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you are straight wrong. With platoons in Fw you eliminate the need of being forced to sync by voice in a player created channel. You create a platoon, voice there, and deploy. The more you talk it seems more likely you are trying to protect the few syncs that already exists rather than enabling the community to give them competition. Your logic is completely flawed, so by democratizing the ability to create a q-sync and lowering the barrier to entry fewer people will be creating q-syncs? I explained very clearly above how the numbers work out in the current system to block most people from FW yet that is being ignored. I want FW to be open to everyone and as I will say for the hundredth time allowing 16 man squads to hit search kill that completely. Please tell me in any amount of detail how my numbers are incorrect. I know that you know the current system as well as I do so I really do not understand how you can not see what I am saying. You can call it democratizing the ability to create Q syncs but I prefer to think of it as avoiding an absolute oligarchy. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:50:00 - [14] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, Deezy, you aren't seeing the big picture here. Would you not agree that we already have 16 man syncs in FW? Those syncs ARE what's limited to the choosen few that know about faction warfare channels like PIE Ground Control, Chosen Matari, State Task Force, and Lucent Echelon. Right now you MUST create a player channel to have a sync or do it in corp chat. With platoons in the finder though you could get a sync together from start to finish without having to say a world aloud. That's the problem right now. The barrier to entry is so high that you limit the number of groups able to successfully sync. Those limits need to be stripped away so the status quo is shifted AWAY from the chosen few that know how to run a sync to the masses that can use the finder to create challengers to those that already have established syncs. Of course there are already 16 man syncs and of course it is an issue that they can not consistently get good fights. How does leaving anyone that does not want to join one of the 16 man platoons searching indefinitely fix that? Has anyone even thought about the fact that with 8 man squads the need for a Q sync is strongly reduced? You now have a far better chance of getting with another 8 man squad that you did not sync with as oppose to ending up with a bunch of randoms. If we had put this much effort into coming up with a better system we could probably even have half of it coded for CCP by now. Instead we are here arguing about applying a band aid over a bullet wound to let it rot. The simple fact is the right call was made and still no one has refuted my point on how it would block a huge portion of the player base to do what is being discussed here. As much as I love with a passion disagreeing with the decisions made in this game I simply do not see any flaw in the decision that was made to the point that I am now burning all of this time and energy defending it and trying to let people see all of the facts so that at least someone could tell me where I am wrong so that I can switch back to my normal bitching about what is being done. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 18:54:00 - [15] - Quote Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:03:00 - [16] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The simple fact is that disallowing full team deploy does nothing but harm those that aren't the well connected in FW. Again the simple fact remains that more syncs equal more good fights. Public matches are being designed to cater to 4 man squads and solo players. It makes sense that FW caters to those that are in fireteams and above. Again the more syncs running means that those solo players will be the ones that fill the holes on the 13 and 15 man platoons. FW was intentionally designed to give solo players longer queue times to encourage players to group up in a squad to engaged the game mode. What about a 4 or 5 man squad that would get totally shut out? Are they meant to have longer times just because they did not fill up to 16? You claim they will fill in the holes. How would they fill in the holes when they gave up searching after seeing nothing but Scotty for an hour because every time they restart the search a 14 - 16 man squad swoops in and takes their place? Search times are bad enough as it is for people that do not take part in a sync. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:05:00 - [17] - Quote Dust User wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Do you seriously want all of FW to be controlled by a few FCs in a few channels? If so I will gladly revive AmarrOne and show all of you exactly how to block anyone from playing if they do not want to follow us. Damn that sounds like fun. None of the top players queuing minmatar because they are so busy protecting their stats and nothing but brutal stomps brought down by my new ability to stop anyone from playing Amarr FW that I do not want to play. Is there really a Red Omen guy claiming he can rule the world? Funniest thing I've read all day. There are many people in this thread that can attest to what I have done in the past in FW. Unlock others who you are referring to I do not make claims that I can not back up. CCP knows what I am saying is exactly what would happen by someones hand if not my own which is exactly why 16 man squads going into FW is not going to happen. Glad you could get a laugh tho. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:07:00 - [18] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. Just because you would join a 16 man squad does not mean that other players would. What about the people that do not want to wait 20+ minutes for that squad to fill up before they hit search to see how long they will be waiting for 16 to queue on the other side? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:12:00 - [19] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: What about a 4 or 5 man squad that would get totally shut out? Are they meant to have longer times just because they did not fill up to 16? You claim they will fill in the holes. How would they fill in the holes when they gave up searching after seeing nothing but Scotty for an hour because every time they restart the search a 14 - 16 man squad swoops in and takes their place? Search times are bad enough as it is for people that do not take part in a sync. The system is robust enough to handle multiple FW matches at the same time, so it would slot them into another match. However, your problem would still be persistent if we allowed 8 man squads, too. Yes it will slot them into other matches but they are still stuck waiting on the other side to fill up after the 16 on the other side have been snatched away by the platoon. Allowing 8 man squads does present a possibility of the same issue but not a likely hood. An 8 man squad searching can still go in with a squad of any other size and use newbies to fill in. An 8 man squad does not effectively block anyone else where even a 9 man squad would. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:15:00 - [20] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Everyone arguing for this is consistently avoiding my example of how it shuts out the player base from FW. I wonder why that is? Not at all, I am just unable to see how it would. The game mode, as Kane points out, was designed FOR large group deployment. You will begin to see more and more groups forming, with positions available for everyone in a 16 man group in the squad finder. This move will benefit everyone. From the training corps (Immortal Guides, Dust University, etc), to the not just yet PC ready corps, to the freshly in PC corps, and to those who have been in PC... and those who aren't in a corp, by introducing them to a large group of new people. One thing I love to do is to use squad finder to find new and interesting people in the game... if I saw a 16 man FW deploy in squad finder, I would join immediately. I, honestly, see it as a win-win for everyone. Just because you would join a 16 man squad does not mean that other players would. What about the people that do not want to wait 20+ minutes for that squad to fill up before they hit search to see how long they will be waiting for 16 to queue on the other side? Then deploy at an earlier, non-complete fill. You will still get in a match. As well, the system won't look, specifically, to put 16 v 16 deployments. You will, of course, get scenarios where the deployment will be 16 v 8+8, or 16 v 4x4, or any possible combination of the different scenarios possible. This option would just give everyone another possible way to form a team and deploy easier, removing currently existing headaches. Again you go back to exactly what I said earlier that the system itself needs to be reworked. Luckily Ratatti has thrown away the old styles of band aid after band aid and we can look forward to a system in FW at some point that allows what everyone here wants. For now breaking it even worse with a bunch of band aids is not really an option. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:27:00 - [21] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy you've already agreed that FW syncs are already in the system. There is no "breaking the system more" unless you are referring to solo players that shouldn't be in the system anyways and if they are they've taken the risk on themselves. Again, allowing higher barriers to entry than other players that are more organized and have their own channels makes no sense. Are you openly saying you want to eliminate anyone from FW that feels like running solo or does not waiting on 16 people? I am not sure when you last checked but we do not have the player numbers to eliminate anyone from any mode little less shut off FW to well over half of the player base. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:30:00 - [22] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Actually there are NPC OB still in Faction Warfare costing WP which is what confused me earlier. They were returned with the reduced WP costs back in Uprising 1.10 I think it was. If you want Platoon deploy in FW these will have to be removed or scaled and I'll explain why. Say all 32 players in a match are of exact equal skill, with each Merc earning 50 WP a minute. Say for the sake of example that a major laser Warbarge strike costs 1600 WP to activate. A 16 Man Platoon would earn 1600 WP in two minutes. A 8 Man Squad would earn it in four minutes. A 4 Man fire team would earn it in eight minutes. So if a match is 16 minutes long: Platoon gets 8 Strikes Squad Gets 4 Fireteam gets 2 Now if Platoon goes agains another Platoon then we have perfect parity. A Platoon goes against two squads, both teams get the same number of Strikes but at different times of the match. Not perfect but still fairish. A platoon goes up against a Squad and a Fireteam with 4 randoms not able to earn a Strike then the Platoon gets 8 strikes to the other sides total of six. Not so fair. A Platoon goes against a Squad and 8 other randoms then thats 8 Strikes against 4. Not fair at all. For the sake of fairness A Platoon goes up against four Fireteams Strikes are again equal but the timing of them is not great for the Fireteam based side. So we have a number of options. Remove the NPC OB's altogether. Scale the cost based on the member size of the squad. Ensure that Platoons face only other Platoons or two Squads and keep Fireteams in a separate queue. Now personally I'd support the removal of the NPC OB's. But I'd also want it so the team balancing do this: Platoon V Platoon Platoon V 2 Squads 2 Squads v 2 Squads 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams v 1 Squad + 2 Fireteams And finally randoms placed in matches with no more than two Fireteams on each side. This would I feel produce the best fights for those larger teams while keeping the randoms and smaller teams away from potential stomping but still having a more challenging match I don't hold at all with the notion 'This is New Eden, git gud'. We need the NPE to more balanced and ease players into these more difficult modes. Most new players quit before they even know about Chat Channels, The squad finder and the different level of play in the game. Until the NPE is more explicit in its warnings about the challenges in FW and PC we must allow for those that are new to the game. We can't carry on with the current meta of stomping. I know we can't legislate for people being A-holes and stomping for fun but we can make easier for new players to deal with these kind of players. It goes into Eve side stuff but the only way to ever have a chance of the link in FW mattering is by removing NPC orbitals from FW completely. This is how it was originally and the system was working well but when the new orbitals were applied they some how ended up in FW as well. I do not know if this was a bug or by design but that day completely screwed up the link with regards to FW. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:40:00 - [23] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. I could take it or leave it on that. Eve is able to provide flux strikes pretty easily without giving up other strikes which would add a depth in strategy. The big thing we should all be pushing for is unique orbital notifications across the board as a way to improve all game modes and make the link slightly stronger assuming it is not possible to remove the NPCs thanks to the code change when more orbitals were added. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 19:49:00 - [24] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: Kain Spero wrote: I have to agree with deezy here that NPC strikes largely need to go, but I would suggest keeping the flux strikes due to the high ground camping with links meta. I'm sorry but without the scaling and/the team set ups I described on the previous page You can have it both ways. The NPC OB's have to go and you'll to instruct the pilot to us eEMP ammo against spam using an OB. I would like to point out that there is an issue with the Eve EMPs. They are MASSIVE. I have yet to see a squad lead drop one in the battle field without getting kicked from FW due to the fact that they are about 5 times as large as the circle you aim with when you zoom in. That is the only reason I can support keeping the flux NPCs instead of trying to sort that out. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 20:26:00 - [25] - Quote thor424 wrote: Yet there's more action in FW than ever with syncs going all the time. It was incentive that was missing before. APEX suits and skins did wonders for FW participation. That along with the LP store being filled in FW is in a pretty good place right now and we all even agreed on that in the group discussion that was held. There are definitely still some tweaks that are needed to make it more consistently competitive as well as not make it so much of a breaking point for some corps or groups. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:00:00 - [26] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 22:56:00 - [27] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. The statement is more about how the 8 man queue syncs will still back out when the sync fails. That creates havoc and lopsided games. You seem to think you are right, so answer me my question and you will see the flaw in your logic: What are you doing about my problem with FW battles going belly up when at launch half the team bails due to failed sync? Your statement holds less water for exclusions if squad finder is leveraged. People will not be excluded if squad finder is leveraged, because there are always open teams. I know lots of the channels will get pretty full but still have open spots because they don't get to 16 and stop. They will open up to the squad finder and possibly introduce new players to massive coordinated FW attacks. Where is the wrong? You are assuming Dust is super organized and exclusive, but you are incorrect. What happens instead is people get butthurt from the FOTM queue syncs which this would lessen. Fixing people leaving battle is not possible. Take a quick look at the disaster area that is public contracts. The funny thing is I have proposed a system meant to encourage completion of battles no matter what but of course that does not get a second glance from anyone because it requires actual thoughts instead of just echoing what everyone else is posting. "if squad finder is leveraged" How many times have I said now that the problem is anyone that does not want to sit around and wait for a 16 man squad to fill up will be eliminated? Your entire argument is IF IF IF. WHAT IF your argument was based on something besides your own personal opinion? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:03:00 - [28] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy the vast majority in this thread is for implementing team deploy to FW. There is no breaking the system when we allready can q-sync. The next step would just be to make the lifes of those easier. And guess what? There is no room for solo players or small sized squads in the current FW q-syncs. If you are too ignorant to see that then stop posting nonesense cause you clearly have no clue about FW at all. All of the major FW channels support team deploy cause it would make their queing easier, not just those channels but aswell large corps are for it. So you are fighting here for the solo playing militia scrub who either camps in the redline or goes 1-20. Those guys contribute nothing to the game as just beeing cannonfodder. The more teams are queing on all sides the higher are the chances that they will fight each other. Yes there wouldnt be any solo players but they would be deployed into the next match thats about to open. And shall i remind you who is kickstarting FW each time so that the "solo player" can enjoy it? Its the Q-syncers who gather 32 players so that YOU actually get a estimated timer on your match. Those guys are the people who keep FW alive. By not adding team deploy you punch every person thats in a FW channel in the face. Cause without them FW would allways be down and nobody could play. Now get out of here Deezy you have beeing owned by argument proficency 5. Owned by arguing proficiency 5? You are just delusional now. The simple fact is that eliminating everyone from FW besides those that want to get into a 16 man squad is idiotic. Not a single person has been able to tell me where I am wrong in the numbers on how it screws over most of the player base and obviously CCP agrees or this conversation would not even be happening right now. I do not need an explanation on jump starting as I am the one that coined the phrase and taught people how to do it back when I ran AmarrOne. Punching every person in the channel in the face? I am not sure how keeping FW functional for the majority of the player base while eliminating some of the need to sync and making it easier for them to sync if they still feel like it is punching them in the face but ok. No you are the delusional one. If all FW channels and corps would work together and say no to kickstart FW then you would not even see a single FW match in a week. Yet you want to screw them over. Here i give you a number on team deploy and that the FW chats are in the majority: -no FW kickstart= 0 matches played for any faction -no matches played means that no solo players can play Or do you believe that the "solo players" care enough to stay long enough in a FW que until it magically works? That is more then questionable. I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Oh and guess what with 8 man squads it will only take 4 people and a little bit of ISK to jump start FW. I know because that is how we did it back when we were the only Q sync channel and did not have huge numbers. P.S. Delusional comes from a Latin word meaning "deceiving." So delusional thinking is kind of like deceiving yourself by believing outrageous things. Delusional thoughts are often a sign of mental illness, but the word can also be used more loosely to describe behavior that is just not realistic. Believing all the players in the game are going to join together and refuse to play anything besides PC and 4 man squads in pub contracts is EXACTLY an "outrageous thing". You can close down every FW chat out there and chances are any mid level corp out there would have it jump started in no time just because they want to run in an 8 man squad like never before. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:18:00 - [29] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.29 23:30:00 - [30] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: I am delusional while you are thinking that all of a sudden FW players are going to protest the game mode? This is just plain funny. Honestly the game mode would lack real value to me if more pointless limitations were imposed upon us. It's hard to keep justifying committing to a game mode in which progress is measured in 20 minute intervals and capturing one district is likely to see it lost within that time frame, where the only reason people play it is to grind LP, and players themselves are penalised for taking the mode seriously. No argument there but adding 16 man deploy to the current system and blocking most of the player base as is being proposed here only serves to do more damage. Not really sure it does. Organised groups will keep queuing as they do and keep winning matches out over those who do not care enough or are too lazy to deploy with allies. Organisation and Numbers > Individual Skill What happens when those organized squads can not get a match for most of the day because everyone but the players who want to run 16 man squads have quit. When people know they can not go in without a 16 man squad and do not have the time or the energy to sit around waiting on 15 other people the whole game mode goes down the drain in a hurry. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 03:50:00 - [31] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Again you mistake priority from an outright block. If there is a 14 man platoon deploy guess who would fill in the gaps? I have to agree with this. Randoms who run solo will be the ones filling in the gaps if there are any. Just don't expect a fireteam to be able to squeeze in. At least not without having someone getting dropped from the match. As a veteran faction warfare player here in Dust, my stance is that the NPC warbarge needs to be addressed. I originally wanting to suggest removing it entirely, but after reading that Deezy, Kain, and other said about the flux strikes and how they compare to the size of an EMP-type OB from an Eve player, I think the best course of action here is to remove the NPC Warbarge's ability to deliver anything else except flux strikes. But at the same time, we should NOT be stopping there. I hosted a lecture about this some time ago and the general consensus right now is that the notifications of Eve-side orbitals being available is just not there or it's not clear enough to the Dust-side players. PS: I'm kind of on the fence about whether or not it was a good idea to limit FW to no bigger than 8-man squads. Greater than 8 man squads also generates squads who are unable to join battle until they get lucky and hit a squad that matches up with them to make 16. What do you think wait times will be for 2 12 man squads that hit search? They will now be waiting on a total of 8 people with none of them being in a squad larger than 4. Anyone want to guess how bad the endless list of combinations like that will affect wait time? An 8 man squad is now waiting on any combination of 8 people while a 12 man squad is waiting on any combination of 4 people while a 6 man squad is waiting on any combination of 10 people. None of them are in battle even tho 26 people are now searching and only 16 are required to create a match. Instead they are forced to wait on specific combinations of people that can total 22 more people based on their respective requirements. How is it that no one is seeing how horribly broken this would be? It is absolute basic mathematics. If squad size reaches more than 50% of the match generation goes all to hell. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 04:54:00 - [32] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Why is it that no one in your corp can understand simple mathematics? Screwed up mismatches equal amazingly high search times for anyone that is not in a 16 man squad. I just gave a very straight forward and more than realistic scenario above yet just like everything else strafing level 5 kicked in and you side step the argument and actually did not even manage to make a point. Kain, why are you so hell bent on ***** up queue times for everyone in small to mid size corps who can not instantly create a full 16 man squad? I honestly do not see the point behind doing that besides hurting the game even more but when a group of people continuously avoid logic and keep arguing for something that is obviously broken there has to be an agenda. Queue times for anyone outside of certain time zones is already horrendous and even people in the prime time zones have bad search times. You want to seriously increase this all so that you dont have to count down for 2 squad leaders to hit search? Is it so that you do not have to take the risk of a different 8 man squad getting into the battle with you and you make actually have to put in some effort if they are not full on proto stompers? For someone arguing about "more organization" there is an awful lot of work going on to avoid having to get 2 people to press X at the same time. Admit you dont give a flying ** about the rest of the community and could care less about their search times being increased by any number and I will gladly leave it alone. There is zero way to argue that squads entering the queue which are larger than 50% of match size do not present a massive possibility of increased search times for everyone else so no matter what you are sending a clear message about your feelings to do with anyone outside of your group. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 05:43:00 - [33] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I'm sorry but cries about exploits are truly unfounded because the system in effect already has team deploy minus the UI for it. Anything that can be exploited under platoons can already be done under q-syncing team deploy (even activities with 32 players) it just requires more effort. I swear this is like people arguing about how bad DRM protects people when it does more to hurt the legit end users. Another side step of the basic numbers presented you showing the exact issue that makes 16 man deployment a very bad idea. We have already locked everyone we can out of PC for quite some time so I suppose the fact that it has finally at least reached a possible point that it can function for most people in the game it is time to do all we can to break another game mode. Next lets add SP locks to game modes so that we can run as many people out of the game as possible. I think I figured it out. You got PC fixed by exploiting billions of ISK and now you are trying to get Dust ported to PS4 or PC by making it miserable enough for everyone else that CCP thinks the PS3 is finally dead? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:02:00 - [34] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, except for no one that knows what their talking about is worried about matches actually occurring. The arguments that I've heard about team deploy is that there is concern that there will be instances of 16 vs 16 randoms or a variation there off. If you are going to try and argue a point at least try to use a valid argument that takes into account with a rolling player population in FW of greater than two teams your problem doesn't exist. Why is it that no one in your corp can understand simple mathematics? I'm actually due to study mathematics as a graduate student at the Uni. of Oxford this upcoming year. As such, I feel reasonably confident when I say what you describe as "basic" mathematics in your posts is neither mathematics in the strictest sense of the rigor required for proper mathematical discourse, nor does it resemble mathematics that is "basic". Mathematical modelling is an entire discipline that takes serious study to understand properly. In this case we'd need to discuss a sincere amount of probability theory in deriving an appropriate approximation of the main thing we'd want to know, which is average wait time on a by-group-size basis. Realistically there are variables which can only be guessed experimentally, such as the average size of a group in the Factional Warfare matching pool. We could wax eloquent all day about how we might look to model player queuing, and queue theory in and of itself is literally its own area of research (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queueing_theory). I think it's clear that none of us have the time to write a thesis on the subject. You did have the seeds of a model that I think you were trying to use to make conclusions about potential waiting time situations. It was flawed in that you assumed that matches won't start without full 16 man teams on each side, which I believe is experimentally not the case. Given the complexity of analyzing a queuing system like this from a mathematical standpoint, you'd probably be better served by discussing some other aspect of FW grouping concerns. GG sir GG. We can see from what it takes to jump start FW in the morning that it does strictly take 16 people ready to enter battle for a match to begin. Unfortunately this is the only pure example as most matches after that end up with at least a couple of people getting Scotty or DCing which does present the illusion that the match has started with less than 16 people. The simplicity of it is this. The match must have 16 people to start and when squad sizes over 50% of the match size those involved are left waiting on their lucky number of players to hit to be able to go in. When you take that into account with the fact that at that point squads can be anywhere from 1 to 16 people the probability of having 16 people ready to go on either side with exactly matching numbers is significantly reduced. Queuing up in anything less than a 16 man squad becomes more of a game of luck than opening strong boxes 1 at a time. Look at that how ever you wish. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:21:00 - [35] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. You can ask anyone that takes part in jump starts about the 16 man thing. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. Don't we already screw over new players enough that even the chance of hurting them even more is enough to consider if something is a bad call? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:37:00 - [36] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Okay so give me a basic example of how queue times get screwed over in 8 v 8 and lets compare. Oh wait with no number greater than 50% of the required total there is not a single such example of more than enough people searching for battle without a battle taking place. That is all that needs to be said. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 06:57:00 - [37] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: On the one hand, a 16 man queue requirement is not what I've observed experimentally, though there's always room for an investigation of legitimate evidence. On the other even assuming that the threshold is 16, making intricate assumptions about arrival times of groups of particular sizes isn't something to do without justification. There are plenty of interesting discussion points already on the table in regards to this thread's topic, but I virtually guarantee that mathematical modelling of wait times isn't one of them. Proof is a helluva drug. It does not take a fully flushed out model to see the chances of it really messing up the system. I think that anyone can look at the basic example scenarios and see where flaws are in the system. This really isn't a trivial mathematical claim. Your concern would be a component of modelling wait times for a scenario this complex, but the actual probabilities would require a full analysis. The "basic examples" you present are meaningless without probability distributions associated with their likelihood. Okay so give me a basic example of how queue times get screwed over in 8 v 8 and lets compare. Oh wait with no number greater than 50% of the required total there is not a single such example of more than enough people searching for battle without a battle taking place. That is all that needs to be said. Unfortunately I'm going to have to stop responding for awhile with the note that it's easier to make incorrect statements like yours than it is to debunk them. If there's a 0% probability of something happening, the fact that it exists as a configuration of the given system is irrelevant in a reasonable model. Additionally, purporting that queue times get "screwed up" in particular configurations without anything approaching rigorous reasoning is incorrect and irresponsible. Yea I guess pros and cons lists never work without a full model. I do appreciate your view on it all. The links you posted are proving a fun read at the moment. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:15:00 - [38] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: System prioritizes squad sizes. That means it rapidly generates matches to dump 16 man squads. It then immediately dumps in the 9-15 groups, filling in gaps as needed. Then it drops the 8s. Then continues down. The more people who queue, the faster the process goes. If you get 8 miscellaneous squads in the queue with 500 solos, they get dumped on each other. Then the game rapidly generates 25 more matches for the randumbs There's not going to be any idiotic exclusion. This is tinfoil... More tinfoil... And look! More tinfoil! And singe the matchmaker in FW literally looks to pit larger groups against each other, there are still lots of places for smaller queues to fall in. Trying to force FW to cater to solos isn't expanding the game play. It's fostering that "individual > team" mentality catered to in other games. If I wanted that I'd play those other games. What happens when a bunch of 9 man squads have priority? How about when a 12 man squad has been searching for 5 minutes and a 16 man squad jumps in? The biggest question of all is how the hell is sticking to 8 man squads who as you even stated get priority building the system around individuals? Sticking to 8 man squads caters to smaller squads far more than solos . 500 people searching for FW? HAHAHAHAHA at many points in the day that is more than 30% of the online players. We only manage to even open up the game mode when 32 people get together and force it to start. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 08:53:00 - [39] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 09:02:00 - [40] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, match leaving is a problem present in ALL game modes today. There is a reason removing the team list has been discussed of a of couple occasions and even touched on by CCP Rattati and leaving who you are fighting to the kill feed and the EOM screen. The whole match leaving thing seems to fall back more on incentive to fight. There is just not any real reward to battling it out and taking the win. Adding incentive to win solves the issues of leaving matches as well as gives people a reason to want to work together and bring an actual fight to the table. When it comes to solving that the possibilities are truly endless which is strange to me that out of all the things that could work we ended up with the one that does the exact opposite. The incentive to fight is LP and affecting EVE Online. Lets not forget the fact that we've complained about the **** LP payouts. They boosted LP to add more incentive to fight. I was speaking more to all game modes on that part. With regards to FW every single one of us know that point that a match is lost and that no profit is going to be made no matter what happens so the whole match just turns into waiting for it to end. There are anomalies in there that go against that such as wanting bragging rights or whatever but none of the rest of our team share those feelings unless there is at minimum a partial sync so that we can get others excited. I am not even bothering to say what I have tried to get people to see in that whole thing as this thread has been argumentative enough. What I will say is that something needs to be done for both FW and pubs because we can all agree on that. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 10:06:00 - [41] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Kevall Longstride wrote: You can continue the line about us already having full teams as much as you want Kane. But there a psychological difference between going up again two squads of 6 and a four and a squad of 16. Deploy it by all means. But I still maintain that after a while they'll be calls for it to be reduced back to squads and Fireteams only for the reasons I specified. And by the way saying ALL the community when less then 10% even post on the forums has always made an argument weaker in my eyes. You have to always take into account the vast majority that don't come here. The majority who does not give a damn? Well played im allways amazed to see useless people in the CPM position. So the community caring means someone gets to speak for them? Oh no you meant just because they don't come on the forums they don't give a damn I guess. Out of all the people I know in Dust a large portion of them do not even have a way besides a phone or their ps3 to come to the forums if they wanted to. Out of everyone most players either realize that the forums are mostly bullshit while the rest are just here to log in and play the game. They could care less about trying to play forum games when they have a console in front of them that they bought just for playing actual games. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 20:34:00 - [42] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Sure thing Thor: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1104074#post1104074 CCP FoxFour wrote: While CCP Nullarbor works on the new matchmaking system we are working on the design of an enhanced squads system that would let you queue entire teams for Factional Warfare. While it won't come out with the new matchmaking CCP Nullarbor is developing the new matchmaking to allow full team queueing for Factional Warfare. The idea being that if you can take an entire team and queue for Factional Warfare you should allow you to go corp versus corp so long as you both have 2 full teams. Since there won't be that many full teams queueing at the same time if you want to fight a specific team you should be able to queue sync easily. While this is obviously not perfect and only partially covers what you are seeking we feel it is a better first step in that direction as it covers more people and does more for the game. We can then look at actual corp versus corp again later. Hope that helps! :D He said very clearly that they CCP Nullarbor is working on it but it will not be included with the new matchmaking. Was there another update saying it was added? We know how things get sidelined so I can not imagine that it made its way in. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.06.30 21:08:00 - [43] - Quote Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when on 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 06:13:00 - [44] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when on 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. There's an old saying, if my aunt had ballz, she'd be my uncle. You are related to the Jenners? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 08:41:00 - [45] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The KTM DuKe wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Piercing, again whether you like it or not 16 man syncs are already in the system all you are doing is limiting their competition, but restricting platoons. So in a game in which there is no competition you want to limit it more? Go play barbie then The exact opposite. By easing the ability to create full team deploys they will not be limited to a select few and thus the current syncs in the game will end up facing other syncs as well. The more syncs in the system the higher the probability that they will themselves face another sync. The issue is as you stated yourself above larger squads get the priority. Is removing everyone from the game mode who does not have a 16 man squad really the answer? In the 8 + 8 system anyone can still sync in and no one gets screwed over. Why is this an issue that has gone like 13 pages now? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 09:35:00 - [46] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again Deezy, you've been told on several occasions that your logic is both inaccurate and flawed. You can keep saying that team deploy will keep people that don't have 16 man platoons until you are blue in the face, but it won't make it true. Again, you make so many assumptions about what pairings will be present it's not even funny. Not to mention assumptions about total player population in faction warfare and don't even consider rolling population numbers or observational evidence that's been collected over the years that directly counters your, quite frankly, short sighted and somewhat moronic claims. The 8 + 8 does actually screw over people that may not play in a main language, multi-lingual groups that would like to form unified teams, and players that probably RARELY come to the forums that don't even know that q-syncing is an actual thing that can be executed. 8+8 won't allow a team to be publicly broadcast so all can join. It won't solve the issue that a custom player channel or corp chat is REQUIRED to execute a sync. This is about giving the faction warfare community the tools that they've be clamouring for for years and allowing the entire Dust community the ability to organize for themselves and easily make teams in an environment and game mode that allows instantaneous matches rather than being forced to only interact with some of the most important in-match social aspects through 24 hour minimum scheduling. Again, you have 5 game modes that are free from scheduling and logistic burdens. Four of which have both match making that takes into account MU to build fair teams and will soon limit groupings to 4 or less players to further enhance that matchmaker. Allowing 1 game mode out these 5 to be geared towards more organized play and teams is hardly onerous or unreasonable. This is especially given that many team deploy champions laid down their swords in limiting squad size in public matches with the understanding that team deploy would finally fully come to faction warfare. CCP needs to allow the faction warfare community to finally realize it's many-year-in-the-making dream of team deploy in the Faction Warfare Skirmish. How many people exactly do you think are playing FW? How many people exactly do you think is on this game at one time? This isn't COD and we barely manage to cross 3000 players online on a very good day. You said yourself as I have stated before that in the current system larger squads get priority. There are only a few hundred people at a time playing FW right now at the best. Is introducing a horribly broken system that only gives priority to the ones who have a 16 man squad going to fix anything about that? Forget whatever and think about this. If there is only a minimal number of actual matches a day and you prioritize the people that have 16 players in their squad what happens to those who do not. There are no numbers needed it is basic logic. I feel like we both very much want the same thing but the simple fact is the current system does not support it. It has been well shown that the system which you keep saying exists does not by public statements. If you know something that the rest of us do not then show me a shred of evidence that it is factual and I will gladly admit I was in the wrong. What it ultimately comes down to is that FW is not PC and placing restrictions on it that make it just as difficult to get into as a PC match helps nobody. We all want district selection and team deploy and probably a few other things but PC has all of the attention so we are forced to take what they can fit in to try to make FW better while they are busy on PC. If I had even a shred of doubt about the fact that 16 man squads would screw up FW for the average player we would not be here right now. That does not mean that I am correct in my doubts but if I am even remotely close to correct why should we risk it. Why risk killing a portion of Dust that many of us love just because us that sync want things to be even easier than they are already being made for us? It really comes down to basic risk analysis. Knowing how long things take to get changed if it were a flop would FW even survive to the point that a change is made? We already scratch by on people within the community forcing it to start so do you believe FW would survive an even bigger blow that takes a month or more to undo? As dedicated faction warfare players we may keep the game mode alive but by no means do we support it. Everyone in the community should have a chance to participate. Higher level players are far more than welcome to join PC where they do have to take part in waiting on 16 players to be on and they do have to think about getting picked by the FC or not. That is not what FW is or what it was meant to be. It is a middle ground where coordination is highly rewarded while taking the risk of joining solo will usually be met with a severe beating and that is how it should be. I can tell you from my experiences that FW creates PC players through seriously stressing the importance of working together without making people hope to be involved. I have people to this day that were absolute newbies when they joined AmarrOne that contact me because they got a mic or just came back to the game and tell me what a change running with us had on their Dust existence. Isn't that what FW should be about? If you think it is just suppose to be another PC then we are all wasting our time. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 11:50:00 - [47] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Ok, can we all just stop this rather pointless discussion? Regardless if you are For or Against team deployment in the current implementation of FW, the fact remains that Warlords 1.2 is now at Sony QA, and is likely not going to change until release. To blame the CPM is also ludicrous since we have CPM members who are publicly advocating both for and against Team Deploy. This is ultimately a CCP decision regardless if we agree with it or not..., and they probably had good reasons why they choose not to include full 16 teams in FW. This might change, based on a earlier quote by CCP Rattati regarding team sizes: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2625732#post2625732 Until team deploy is implemented in the game the discussion will never be pointless since it is something that the community has wanted and desired for years as has been previously stated. I can guarantee you that if the CPM had unanimously supported team deploy in faction warfare as CPM 0 had then it would have been in the game with 1.2. So, no the entire CPM is not to blame, but the holdouts (as can be seen in this thread) surely didn't help the case for team deploy in Faction Warfare being implemented in 1.2 off the bat. Luckily, it seems that this change can be fixed server side, so this mistake can be corrected quickly and the spotlight needs to be shone on the situation until it is fixed. Not only that, but the fact that the limitation of team deploy to Planetary Conquest occurred without a community discussion on the matter regarding 8 man squads is pretty surprising. Referring to CPM 0 should be avoided and we all know that. Implementing CPM 0 did more damage to this game than anything aside from the infamous fanfest announcement. If Ratatti and team did not see the amazing flaws in what you are proposing I think they would have gone ahead and flipped the switch before they sent things over to Sony. I suppose by your logic presented in PC before you should go ahead and start breaking the terrible upgrade we are being given so that they can make that quick server side fix. This update happened without discussion of the community because of exactly what we are seeing in this thread. The inability of this community to think past the end of their nose is more than abundant and sometimes self serving measures just are not good for the thousands of people who play this game but are not here on the forums. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 12:03:00 - [48] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, I'm sorry but now your ignorance is truly showing. From what CPM 1 members like Dennie has said they are being cautious. Again, since we already have team deploy in it's most basic form in Faction Warfare already there is no reason to NOT flip the switch. Let team deploy out of the box and then if there are issues it seems that CCP more than has the capability to quickly address it. This is a case where using the Golidlocks method would actually prove useful since the scenario of team deploy is already occurring. Again, part of CCP's caution was no doubt because of holdouts on the council that turned their backs on a compromise of letting team deploy occur in FW in light of reduced squad size in public matches. As for the how and why it doesn't really matter only that this mistake is addressed and quickly. My ignorance is showing when I am arguing the same thing that according to you CCP has already said? Interesting Why dump on everyone that wants to play a certain game mode so a few people can get what they want? We already saw how that played out in PC and we see now how well that philosophy worked out years later while the pieces are still being picked up. Yes CCP is entirely ran by the CPM and never looks at factors on their own so obviously the whole issue is because of some holdouts within CPM. i wouldn't know anything about that so you got me there. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:01:00 - [49] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Deezy stop trying to force teamplayers to play with randoms in FW. Q-syncers wont allow randoms on their team due to the exact knowledge that randoms are 95% of the times useless. Deezy what you think will happend when a 8+8 q-sync fails? The squad that gets deployed will backout and leave the 8 randoms in the match. Q-syncers will allways keep trying to play with a full team and you will not prevent this. All what you are standing for is trying to throw sand into the gears of war from the coordinated players. It will allways stay like this and that is that q-syncers will never play with randoms and that is a fact you moron. So the only squads in the game will be the two squads of 8 that are trying to sync and everyone else is a random? Sure there is no way other squads of 6 or 8 are going to be searching and get priority over the randoms to end up paired with other larger squads. Even Kain said that currently q syncs work just fine so how are they going to magically get broken by the fact that now the numbers all match up and you only have to have 2 squad leaders that need to hit X. What ever happens when that queue sync fails is up to the players involved but we do all know that it will probably be backing out of the battle. Let me ask you something on that tho. We know priority is given to the largest squad and we know that squad sizes are now balanced with match size making it so that only 2 squads are needed. Tell me then how a sync is going to fail and leave a squad of 8 with 8 randoms while another squad of 8 is searching. The only examples of failures we see now are uneven squads getting dumped into battles with other squads or the small squad ending up with a bunch of randoms due to a squad having their spot in the match already. When you break it all down 8 + 8 looks amazing for allowing coordination and queue syncs while also making it far easier for everyone to participate with or without a queue sync channel. If you don't like taking a chance on having a squad that you are not familiar with then hop on over to PC. You can round up all the districts you want and battle all you desire. I even hear rumors that there are going to be some cool rewards for doing that but no need to take my word when there are devblogs and the rest of the forums. I will admit that not being able to see squads in the warbarge adds a very broken dynamic there in knowing who is on your team and being able to squad up once in the warbarge but that is a separate bug which is hopefully being worked on. That is one thing that really does hurt badly in 8 + 8 where it does not in 16. I believe that your chances of only having another 6 - 8 man squad with you in a battle are amazingly high which means that anyone who wants to play FW can squad up and hop in without going through anyone else plain and simple. Only time will tell on that. Oh lets not forget that in typical CCP fashion we are buffing FW and PC through nerfing pubs which I am not at all complaining about. Where do you think all of these small corps who have 8 - 10 members on at a time are going to flock towards? Are they just going to break up into squads of 4 and keep running pubs? I guess they could go ahead and go play PC once per 24 hours where they have to bring in strangers to fill out the team, spend millions of ISK, and expect to get stomped by ringers if they actually manage to win a battle. I for one think they are going to fill up an 8 man squad and their extra people to hop into FW and maybe even recruit a few people to make a full 16 sync because they see that they are getting beat by exactly that. Call me optimistic but that provides one hell of a buff to FW and makes FW precisely the middle ground that it is suppose to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:31:00 - [50] - Quote psyanyde wrote: As it is now FW is unorganized chaos that has 6-7 people trying to take/guard objectives and the rest of the people doing the following -Guarding the MCC -Getting Slaughtered -Zerging objectives and then leaving it unguarded It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Which in fact could cause better player retention because now you have people to play with in Pubs and FW Team Deploy in FW would also allow smaller/medium corps interested in PC to get their tactics anshit together, which in return could/would breath new life into PC I see more good things that could come from having it than not Much of the solo berries in FW come from very screwed up squad numbers which is something that is now getting fixed. I obviously do not have a crystal ball but I think we are going to see a lot less solo play in FW thanks to the nerf on Pubs and the easier ability to know that at minimum half your team is working together. We will see the results pretty quickly after the release. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 21:54:00 - [51] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Maybe we're the exception rather than the rule, but how about we get the tools in place to let others than the select few get a chance to experience deploying with a full team and see where things land? Not to mention with a full team deploy implementing penalties for leaving matches repeated could even be a possibility since you won't have the issue of squads leave because of a misfired sync. There already is a place for people who want a full team deploy. Its called PC. I'm not trying to debate if your group plays like spoiled suburban girls in the ghetto at 7 p.m. on a Friday night in the summer. Its already well established. You either want to drive the solo players out, or manage where they are so that you can farm. No surprise there, you are NF after all, you ladies have never changed, but thankfully you have hoovered all the like minded women to your side. Its a shame you caught some nice folks up in your net, but most of them would be proper useless in a real slug fest. Probably why you guys work so hard to avoid them. PC is on a schedule and is therefore not a persistently accessible outlet for team-based play. Moreover, pubs are being turned into a paradise for casual players because no group larger than a fireteam will have access to it, and matchmaking is going to attempt to put those groupings against each other as much as it can. That's a huge concession! 8-man squads in just one match type (FW-style skirm) is not a fair trade for the amount of coordinated play and social interaction that is being lost across the entire public match catalog. So because PC has and always will be a very flawed design FW and the rest of the game in general has to suffer? Sounds like a plan to me! A group of people including myself said over and over that we have no interest in PC thanks to it revolving around 1 match a day at a set time. I really do not understand how that can even qualify as in game content but I am just a button masher. We are suppose to be getting raiding to try to resolve this but apparently the fix everyone wants to go with is to eliminate any middle ground and turn FW into PC so that PC can continue to be farmed by current land holders since no one has any reason to move up to PC. OOPS I revealed part of the master plan. Sorry about that. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 22:25:00 - [52] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: psyanyde wrote: It would seem that if team deploy were instituted in FW, it would cause solo berries to gravitate towards a corp. Having team deploy wouldn't stop people from going solo into FW matches. It would only insure that once 16 losers where found they would get dumped into a team stomp. They would then leave the match over time, creating a super easy win for the scrubs stacking. Put two groups together, one for Minmatar and one for Amarr. Group one queues for a match. Once they get one, the other group fires up their search. Now you have two syncs going for the price of one, and both teams are almost assured wins. Free LP for everyone they like. Everyone else gets left out in the cold. I know Jadek had already pointed it out but I really did not think about the farming potential until now. Thanks to the larger squad having priority 2 groups of 16 could constantly give each other empty battles all day. It is possible now but incredibly difficult to the point it would almost never happen. Just think if someone were to send out 1 guy to fill up a 16 man squad of randoms and counter sync with the actual 16 man team. Holy stat padding. Thanks for bringing this up and sorry to Jadek for the fact that I completely ignored it when he originally pointed it out. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:48:00 - [53] - Quote They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.01 23:50:00 - [54] - Quote So that this does not spill into other threads. Thor we all want team deploy but what good is it when it screws over peoples ability to play the game and opens a massive exploit in allowing FW to be farmed? How much damage are we willing to do for one feature? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 00:15:00 - [55] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: They are not going to put anything that has as massive of an exploit as 16 man squads in FW would. Step 1 Get 17 people together. 16 of them in a platoon. Step 2 The 17th man tosses a squad up in squad finder and the original platoon runs a match until his squad is full. Step 3 The two 16 man squads sync against each other. Step 4 The "bad" squad leader kicks anyone that is actually killing people. Step 5 Repeat syncs all day with triple stacked boosters and laugh at your insane profits. I find it odd that many of the same people who farmed PC to the ground are the ones fighting so hard for this system to be implemented now that farmability in PC has been reduced to almost nothing. Do you believe in coincidences? In this exact scenario any corporation with 17 people would be able to farm roughly 75 - 100 million ISK per hour and even more if they just use 32 people and lock in both sides making it absolutely risk free unlimited farming. Let's also not forget that while this farming is going on every member can complete most of their missions to earn command points to help in farming PC districts without including anyone else in their corporation. Should we really be making it as easy as possible to continue farming the game with very little effort involved? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 01:08:00 - [56] - Quote thor424 wrote: I honestly can't picture 32 people getting together for something so cheesy, how boring would that be? The PC farming was a few people, I never heard of full teams farming. Full teams worked together many times to boost their SP payouts. I can not find the video at the moment but there was a video circulated a while back where WTF was able to farm well over 20k WP per player in PC battles. This is the same activity that would EASILY take place behind closed doors in 32 man FW syncs. Want 32 people in your corp to cap out in one day with free one day boosters stacked? Sure counter sync into FW which would be unbelievably easy with 16 man squads. Since it was in one match 2100 AUR for a x4 boost on top of that would be amazing. Fortunately there is a system in place now that slows this down but it still works. Assuming the cap is at 7500 WP: 7500 x 2.5 from boosters = 18,750 SP in one match. 7500 x 4 from a single instant boost = 30,000 SP on top of that. Once you add in time in battle SP you are over 50K SP from one risk free match which can easily be repeated as many times as you want per day. That means you can cap out in roughly 20 matches all triple stacked boosters and x4 instant boosts making millions of SP and getting a good amount of nearly free proto gear all at once. Thanks to no search times when countering with 32 people you can figure an average of 20 minutes per battle meaning with only 7 hours in one day you are able to net nearly a billion ISK for the corporation and nearly 10 million SP per player. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 02:19:00 - [57] - Quote thor424 wrote: I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed. I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:21:00 - [58] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: I usually get between 300 and 800 WP while syncing. Most people I play with have from 50 to 125 mil SP, I personally have right under 125 mil with 4 mil unallocated. Nothing will change for NF with 4, 6, or 8 man squads, it'll just be more of a pain to do it. I certainly don't know anyone who is going to spend $ to boost SP. A year ago, maybe. I think the game needs persistent team deploy and FW is the best way to achieve it with the least amount of dev time. Maybe raiding becomes this, but either way team deploy is needed. I am talking about people going into matches which are fully controlled by them so that everyone can run up a quick 7500 WP and move on to the next one. That's exactly what went on in PC for a long time. Persistent team deploy is exactly what raids are meant to be somewhere down the road. I can not wait as it will actually make PC interesting. Can you imagine logging in and hanging out with your corp to launch 10 - 20 raids through out the day just causing mayhem across Molden Heath? Now THAT is the team deploy we need. Fortunately that is what Ratatti seems to be trying to make possible. Deezy again you fail to realize that this can already be done and the more syncs that are floating around the more difficult trying to control both sides becomes. I'm sorry but "somewhere down the road" for persistent team deploy isn't acceptable. It also doesn't address that Team Deploy is something specifically desired for Faction Warfare. So your argument is that since there is already an exploit we should just make it 10x easier? That's good stuff. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 04:57:00 - [59] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: No, I said it's already possible. Yet it doesn't occur and would be made harder by he presence of more syncs if folks were to try it. Also CCP already put anit-boosting measures in place becuase of what happened in PC. Your argument is about as sound as bad DRM policies. First of all neither of us have any idea if it is actually possible. Remember that each game mode has different ways of putting us in matches. Pubs have the matchmaker while FW has the team builder and PC just allows 16 people to enter battle. Just because a 16 man squad was created does not mean that team builder has the ability to accept them. We could all be wasting our time on this convo because of the real reason for it not there is because CCP does not feel it best to spend the time modifying team builder to handle the logic which would involve a 16 man squad. You of all people should understand this and not be trying to say what CCP can or cant do. So lets review: You claim organization is being screwed over even tho it is getting buffed. You have already said you don't care if it screws over the player base. You believe that even tho it makes a known exploit even easier that it still needs to be in there right now. CCP already made the decision on this based on factors that neither of us know yet according to you it is already there. Suddenly "down the road" is unacceptable when the entire life of this game has been "down the road" Did I pretty much sum it up or would you like to add something? Good to know that I am the one with an argument "as souns as bad DRM politics". Had you actually made one valid statement in the entire course of this 15 something pages I may be offended by that. Have you noticed how you and a small group of people most likely just following you are the only ones still arguing for this? If you are speaking for so much of the community where is everyone else? I will give you a hint. They are all happy with the buff and could care less about this conversation. Trying to push an idea that CCP has already sided against, no one else is willing to argue for, and has been proven to be full of holes could be attempting to promote some agenda. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 06:59:00 - [60] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again the issue is that adding team deploy doesn't create anything that can't be done already. It gives the power of team deploy to all players rather than a select few. Address any exploiting that might occur directly rather than trying to punish everyone. It's about improving the team play options at the same time the solo and small group options are improved (4 man fire teams in pubs). Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. So far in this thread among other things you have said you dont care about screwing over a large portion of the player base and now that you dont care if it makes it 10x easier for people to exploit the living hell out of the game. You also claim to speak for the community when there is almost nobody left in this thread arguing along with you. You have yet to state one actual benefit of 16 man deploy besides that people ask for it. Just stop talking nobody cares about you wanting farmville now that the ISK faucet in PC has been turned off. Do you really think Ratatti and team have worked on PC for the last several months just to have your pointless ranting allow them to make a horribly broken change to the game which opens up another ISK faucet and makes no one give a damn about all that work they have done? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 07:15:00 - [61] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I gave more than a few reasons. Your objections have been shot down numerous times and now you are just grasping at straws. Kain Spero wrote: I was always and still am a big proponent of four-man squads (fireteams) in public matches. Public matches should have a protectionist aspect to them that gives players and opportunity to familiarize themselves with the game and get those initial social hooks. That said, to me the compromise to 4 man squads in public play was to implement team deploy in FW. Fireteams are coming to Pubs but only Squads of 8 are coming to FW. There is something wrong here. Getting this close to team deploy in FW and then not getting it is extremely frustrating. I understand the desire to iterate and use caution, but this is an instance where the band-aid needs to be ripped off. Team Deploy has been a requested and clamored for feature in FW for years. We now have the tools to realize a dream of many many Dust players: the ability to deploy with a full team with little delay. PC matches in less than 24 hours will not be coming to PC at this time and team deploy in FW offers a fantastic alternative to a feature that may not be implemented for months. Team Deploy will make the lives of those that already sync in Faction Warfare easier, yes, but it will accomplish so much more! A single instigator will be able to enable 15 players to socialize and play Dust together at the drop of a hat. Corporations will be able try out newer members by easily fielding them with vets in FW. Faction Warfare enthusiast will be able to truly organize their forces and move FW to a more concrete and substantial meta. Corporations will even be able to create a pseudo corp battle 2.0 system! Also, the easier it is to sync the more syncs will be running and thus the number of quality matches in FW will further increase. Jump starting FW will go from a many hour affair to two individuals creating public platoons and gathering the forces needed to kick FW off which means more and more timezones will be able to enjoy a game mode that has been out of reach!!! Again, I can understand and appreciate the hesitancy to directly implementing this feature off the bat, but the time is now for team deploy in FW. We've waited long enough, CCP, give us the tool to truly organize ourselves for immediate full team play!!!!! Not a single thing that 8 man squads does not give with far less drawbacks. Not one scenario has been shot down every one of them have been sidestepped aside from where even you admit that it makes FW a giant exploit. I find it funny that the person who was so hell bent on getting CCP to fix an exploit that he used it to gain billions of ISK sits here in front of us and says that having exploits is fine as long as you make them easier and do it because a few people want it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:01:00 - [62] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Your "drawbacks" in terms of destroying the ability to queue have been shown to be fantasy at best by a mathematician that you actually agreed with. And if you actually bothered to read you would see that I said that the tools are already in place for team deploy through q-syncing and yet this massive exploiting doesn't exist. So you think everyone will wake up tomorrow and then try to execute exploits that aren't even possible with SP caps in matches, set LP payouts, and the creation of ISK through the destruction of BPOs already haven been addressed? I'm sorry, but the sky isn't falling. You really should leave the tinfoil and paranoia at home. SP caps is why my numbers were based on 7500 per match as oppose to the 20k that was easily possible before. I did not argue that the exploit is impossible right now I argued that 16 man deploy makes it almost effortless. I am not referring to ISK through BPO destruction I am referring to ISK through an unlimited flow of whatever FW items first become tradeable. My actual numbers in the examples were based on APEX suits and selling them at 40 million ISK for a 30 million profit per suit. Obviously those numbers are impossible to say what they will be but that is far lower than anyone has discussed for what APEX suits will be worth. Are you saying that fighting to not watch an entire game mode driven into the groundby someone who obviously has an inability to look at facts that affect anyone besides his self is paranoia now? I like how you failed to address the fact that there is no proof the current system can even handle a 16 man team for sure and your entire argument there is based on pure assumption. As I pointed out the systems in each game mode are different so just because they made it work in PC does not mean team builder can even handle it like you claim. I would also like to point your attention here You will notice in the section quoted below that FW is specifically meant to be a middle ground that is open to anyone. Quote: Unlike Planetary Conquest, which requires involvement with a player corporation and favors an extremely high level of gameplay, Factional Contracts are an area of the game that anyone can participate in. Factional Contracts and their link with Factional Warfare in EVE also serve as one of our best links between the two games. That being said, currently Factional Contracts were not hugely different to public contracts. Our goal with this iteration of Factional Contracts was to make them unique and more challenging while maintaining their accessibility to all players. It is our belief that, at least for now, players should want to play both Public Contracts and Factional Contracts; not one or the other. You have stated very clearly that you do not care about allowing anyone else in and do not care if 16 man deploy hurts players ability to get in to FW. Why exactly would CCP throw out this entire thinking and disparage all of the work that has been done over the past several months on PC? Because you and a few people that think the nerf which they are already giving us to stronger support the above statement say so does not quite count. Go find some other way to farm the game. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 09:04:00 - [63] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested Kain says FW needs 16 man deploy because it is suppose to be hard mode and a large part of the community wants it. I say 16 man deploy breaks wait times, blocks average players from joining, and seriously increases the ability to exploit the game mode similar to how PC use to be exploited. Sorry if I misstated Kain's opinion he is free to add his own "jist" if he likes. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 10:37:00 - [64] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Someone give me the jist of the last 5 pages? FW is hardly booming now, give it team deploy and it might actually get more people interested Kain says FW needs 16 man deploy because it is suppose to be hard mode and a large part of the community wants it. I say 16 man deploy breaks wait times, blocks average players from joining, and seriously increases the ability to exploit the game mode similar to how PC use to be exploited. Sorry if I misstated Kain's opinion he is free to add his own "jist" if he likes. This is hillarious you do know that there can be a infinite amount of matches and not just one at a time for 1 faction? As soon the 16 man sync gets deployed the game waits till the next match gets filled up in the que and with that creates another match in FW. The possibility that you run into another 16 man team are aswell higher cause the game prefers large squads over small/solo players and with that when both sides que at a similar time its allmost granted that they face each other. And about your argument about "we dont know if the system can handle team deploy" i could aswell claim the opposite where you dont know that it wouldnt work. Infinite amount of matches but Dust is far from an infinite numbers of players and the losing side of FW always ends up low on players because people give up and join the winning side or go back to pubs. No I am not claiming that I know it will not work but I have pointed out possible flaws in function as well as the fact that CCP did not put this in the update so why would one believe that they did the update to the team builder if they did not want this in there. 8 man squads reduce the need for syncs by making it much more likely that you are matched with another 8 man squad by way of squad prioritization which already exists. This opens up the game mode to more people while also making it so that solos are going to be met with serious resistance that will either send them running to a squad or back to pubs. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:25:00 - [65] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Also, if you think just because CCP decides something it's the right course of action I have a bridge to sell you. Attorney General, if you think the lack of 16 man platoons will stop the current syncs from continuing they you really have no idea what you are talking about. To the first line, a former CPM trying to act haughty is completely absurd. To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? All he does is responds to every point with a reworded version of points that have been proven are all covered by 8+8. CCP has already stated what they want FW to be so I highly doubt they are going to make FW an easy alternative to PC which they have been working so hard on. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:28:00 - [66] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The Attorney General wrote: To the second, please provide a point where I say that limiting team deploy to PC is done to stop q syncs. You can't, because I didn't say it. Stop trying to respond to a point with a different one. You want to be able to farm easier. I get it, I think we all get it. You want a few button clicks and 32 people are fighting matches without organized opposition, and you don't have to even put in the effort to get a sync going. You want CCP to gift wrap your LP for you becuase heaven forbid you have to put some work in to stomp the **** out of randoms. Once again, since you clearly need it drilled into your mouth breathing skull: Why should CCP invest limited Dev resources into making your farming easier? Again, Attorney, you show that you have no idea what you are talking about. If someone wanted to queue 32 people at once they could do that right now. I can run a q-sync right now for hours on end with limited hassle due to my experience with the mechanic. Others are not so lucky. I want MORE syncs running, so our syncs will have stiffer competition and thus better fights. Rather than talking from an obvious lack of experience you should join me on a q-sync and see how the system currently works. Would team deploy eliminate some of the hassle? Of course. If you think the lack of team deploy stops a dedicated sync, which you try indicate if your own post you probably need to eat some more brain food with your breakfast. I actually look forward to our sync having more competition and better fights. Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Its funny how you proved me right immediately after I said. Again Kain, nothing you are saying is not a benefit of 8 + 8 that is a benefit of 16. It is a bit weird how you talk about how easy Q syncing is and then say we need 16 because it makes it easier to get competitive battles. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:45:00 - [67] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, that is exactly my point though. I can sync and run 16 and you can sync and run 16 because we know how the mechanic works which has no in-game explanation and the only way to know you can execute it is through reading about it on the forums or from word--of-mouth. 8 + 8 will only make syncing easier for those that know about the mechanic. Not the players in the game that have no idea what q-syncing is. You try to say you are for the little guy and in the same breath try to take away his tools that would allow him to organize himself more easily and bootstrap his way into engaging the more well established groups in Faction Warfare. Surely you can be so blind and short-sighted to NOT see this? A lack of tools only hurts the masses not those that have created their own in the current environment. As I have said over and over. 8 + 8 makes it far more likely you will have a good squad with you thus eliminating the need for syncs while it is also still there for corps or channels who do want to sync. The little guy gets the ability to participate without ever having to take part in more than a 8 man squad if he does not feel like it. How on earth is making it difficult to even get a match unless you are in a 16 man squad helping anyone but large corps and channels that are already full of FW players. Which is better for the little guy? Hop in a squad that is barely bigger than a squad now and get put in with another 8 man squad which happens thanks to squad priority. Even a person in a solo corp can fill up a 8 man squad in no time. or Wait for a 16 man squad to show up. Hope for it to fill in in some bearable amount of time. Search for battle and go up against a corp squad that is actually coordinated and get stomped. Then have the squad leader get mad at everyone that did not perform to his standards and kick them so the whole process can start over. Sure you will say they can just start a squad of their own but what happens when there are 20 16 man squads sitting in squad finder so none of them can even fill up so they are just stuck waiting forever. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 12:56:00 - [68] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Only through adversity do we rise above and better ourselves. If you don't think that's the case I just have to feel sorry for you and your small outlook on things. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the guy behind the Blue Donut? Don't forget corp wide MCC dipping way back. Kain has been a min maxer since day one, and he won't ever stop. He equates high wallet amounts with being good at dust because he can't hack it on the field. Actually, if you had any idea what you were talking about you know I've gone out of my way on numerous occasions to shut down exploits, but keep outright lying between your teeth if that makes you feel better. So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? Going out of your way to shutdown exploits includes farming billions of ISK while you are a CPM and can directly talk to CCP? I am not saying I know they would have listened or whatever but it seems like the profitability in shutting down exploits is incredibly high. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:27:00 - [69] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: So rather than trying to attack me as a person do you have anything specific to add regarding the current discussion of introducing team deploy? 1. If PC-level players want access to team deploy and better fights around the clock, why does that demand have to be met by FW? Why not instead open up around-the-clock raids so PC-level play can be found on demand? 2. What mechanics would prevent the risk-free farming of FW by 32-man q-syncs? 3. Assume a newbro with no in-game connections or knowledge of the Forums wishes to earn an APEX suit through FW participation. To save Isk. Walk me through how he will meet that goal in a FW setting which supports Team Deploy. 4. What mechanics would prevent an oddly shaped block (say 5 players) from queuing for FW and remaining stuck in that queue indefinitely? 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? Yet again questions get ignored because they do not match the agenda. 1. Exactly 2. This one will try to be answered with the SP cap which is still somewhere in the area of 7500 WP and there is no answer to the LP. 3. The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. 4. Exactly what I have been trying to say. Things get specifically messed up when you have any squad from 9 to 15 players. 5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 13:38:00 - [70] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: 5. Why the big rush? What specific downsides are there to test-driving 8-man support first? 5. I will leave that one alone as we all know the answer there. I honestly don't know the answer. Even when the Devs are careful, patches/updates and even simple balance tweaks don't always return the desired effect. Why rush a huge change through when we have the option to iterate? Why not move forward with 8-man as planned, work out all the kinks and then discuss (from an informed position) the ups and downs to 16-man? I am on the side of 8 + 8 not only as a test but as a fact that this should not even be getting discussed right now because I think it will work out wonderfully for FW and for the community as a whole. If 8 + 8 proves to not work anywhere near the way I am thinking then I was wrong and so be it. The "leaving it alone cause we all know this one" was really just a shot at Kain because his entire argument has been that we should have it right now because it is "already in there" and the community wants it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:04:00 - [71] - Quote Rebutals: 1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins. 2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment. 3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad. 4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely. 5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC. It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are. Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that. Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident" Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced. As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:18:00 - [72] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Lol, Attorney. You actually make yourself look like a fool here. I'm not sure how many different ways I can say it, but let me see if this gets through: Any syncing that goes on now will continue to go on whether there are 8 man squads or heck even if there were just 4 man fire teams in FW. The lack of team deploy only hurts those that don't know about the mechanic and allows syncs to exist in the environment unmolested by the prevalence of other syncs. This is about increasing the quality of matches in the game mode. I swear I could make a killing on selling tin foil with just you and deezy. Take a read through my rebutals above and lets see what you have to say. Ignoring that and making tinfoil jokes is right along with what you have done in the rest of this thread. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:25:00 - [73] - Quote Come on Kain show where my tinfoil is here deezy dabest wrote: Rebutals: 1. A whole new PC system is coming out along with the fact that this change is being made and none of this is even being given a chance before the **** storm begins. 2. Boredom never proved to be a problem for the guys that were going into matches farming up 10s of thousands of WP in one go. A skirmish match can be completed in roughly 14 minutes if all letters are immediately taken. This gives more than enough time to go complete a few missions and farm up some SP. With a 32 man counter sync there is also no time waiting for battle unless it is a failed deployment. 3. That one I covered above: The answer here will be that they can join through squad finder. What will be left out is the fact that they will have to wait who knows how long for the squad to fill up if it happens at all because of people leaving from impatience. After that he can hope the squad leader does not kick him due to sub par performance. This is far from newbro friendly as now only 16 man squads can compete and has newbros they are not always welcomed specially in large groups and when they die too much. All of the power lies firmly in the hands of the people with the ability to fill in a 16 man squad. 4. Actually I read a bit into his point and queuing theory does not really apply to what we are asking. Team builder is not queuing by what that primarily goes by but just crams in people until it gets 16 people. This comes down to the fact that when 9 people search it leaves them waiting for a very odd number to go in. On top of that the current system prioritizes larger squads meaning that an odd number block would get passed over repeatedly by 16 man squads taking away the enemies. Here the argument will be that there are unlimited matches but the real issue is if a 16 man squad swoops in and pulls away all of the enemies for them to fight then they are left searching almost indefinitely. 5. Team deploy is not needed when matches are getting paired up with prioritized squads of 8 + 8. Good coordimated matches can happen within your group or you can choose to go up to 16 if you have that many people and want to. You act like Q syncs are some best kept secret but the simple fact is if you have 16 people together and none of them know about it someone will probably figure it out. This is not a great answer but something we have to be stuck with thanks to FW getting passed over for now in favor of PC. It also plays the part of a middle ground exactly as CCP intended by allowing players to work together with a larger group than pubs and with friendly fire turned on so that they can work up to either Q syncs or PC. If a player has not even gotten the chance to operate in an environment outside of a 4 man squad how can they be expected to work well in a 16 man squad where they can not even be given individual squad orders. Team cohesion is already going to be very odd for PC corps who are not well meshed so there is not a chance of it working out well in a 16 man squad where the squad leader has no idea what anyone runs or what their skill levels are. Just to reiterate 8 + 8 has an extremely high chance of not even needing syncs so at least there is that. Getting CCP the numbers at the expense of seriously damaging the game mode just does not work. Every day our average player numbers slip just a little bit and shutting out a huge amount of players from FW for even a day has a great chance of doing permanent damage to not only FW but the entire game. Why would CCP gamble their wallet on your or any of us being "fairly confident" Your claims on already having team deploy are absolutely unfounded unless you are revealing information you received as CPM. The dev post you linked said that CCP Nullarbor was working on it but it was NOT being deployed in that update. No follow up was ever made stating that it was released and Ratatti stated that the update in question has been almost totally replaced. As to your claims on being mistaken about something that was suppose to be coming we all went for that gig without even being CPM. The fact there is that that team has been almost or possibly even totally replaced and there are no empty promises being made here. In fact CCP has not even gotten involved in this discussion what so ever. They made a decision based on their facts and their discussions with CPM and moved on it. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:38:00 - [74] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game? On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 14:57:00 - [75] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Juno Tristan wrote: Deezy to your point 3. FW is meant to be a serious mode, that newbro needs to be carried to win the match, I'm happy to do this if they can be bothered to wait. Team deploy will shorten that wait As for kicking for poor performance so long as they're not team killing they'll get to stay in, many syncs are hardly awash with numbers and it's better the devil you know While I agree and have treated things exactly that way in the past we do not speak for the bulk of the community. For a newbro that is already getting slaughtered thanks to low skills how many times getting kicked from a squad does it take for them to be ready to quit FW or even the game? On the wait time I am pointing to time to fill up a squad. Drop a 6 man squad in squad finder right now and watch how many people pop in demanding you go into battle and leave if you do not hit search right then. How much does that get multiplied when you are waiting for 16 instead of 6. New players get kicked because there's no room in the squad (of 6 or 12) to make way for a vet and they don't have the skills to set up a new squad to sync Team deploy will make it easier for them to stay on Kicking when trying to fill up is not the issue. It is the endless supply of impatient people who leave after a minute or so to try to hop in a squad that is going into battle right then. Filling up a squad of 16 is very likely to be met with going through a cycle of losing 1 - 2 people for every 3 - 4 that you gain. How much of that is the squad lead going to put up with before he just tosses one of those messed up blocks into the team builder and runs into the issues of trying to be matched up while more appropriately numbered squads go ahead of them in line due to matching numbers and prioritization. It is seriously a logistical night mare to have such variations going on. I really believe that this is exactly why CCP went with 8 man squads in FW but we will never know. Even if it is not a massive amount of extra time at the end of the day why risk it instead of just making everyone happy with a solution that plays well inside of the code and gives everyone an equal chance. This has been my biggest point of contention for this entire thread simply for the fact that it has the potential to make FW a disaster area if I am even close to correct. In our current environment neither us or CCP can afford to go messing up an entire game mode for whatever amount of time it takes them to change their mind back and push the actual update through. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 15:19:00 - [76] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: You will alwaysa have randoms queuing up ready to fill the gaps Totally agreed but the issue is the more messed up blocks you have the more randoms get drawn in and the less chance they are there to fill in for more matches to get going in a timely manner. Unfortunately we need to think about this from a perspective of making FW work across as many time zones as possible which is a pretty big issue right now. When it is early in the morning or late at night when there are far less randoms around 2 squads of 9 searching may see one of them getting in when with 8 man squads there is a slightly higher chance of everyone involved getting into battle and having a good time. Its like in the example I have presented a couple of times. Quote: Say there are squads of 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 searching. There are now 55 people in the queue and there is not a match going on. In the current system it is impossible that it happen to that extent. This is exactly why CCP chose to not throw 16 man squads in the current system which is simply not built to handle that. In that scenario those 55 people now have to wait on groups of 7, 6, 5, 4, and 3 before they can start. How is holding up 55 people and forcing them to wait on 25 more people in the proper number groups when only 16 are required for a match good for anyone? You can do this same math with any number from 9 to 15 and the same results happen. While I am no mathematician the possibility of having that many people searching and no battle going on in a community of our sizes seems like a very serious issue. Obviously it would be a massive anomaly but in the slower times we could see enough people searching for 3 - 4 matches to be going but only 1 going on thanks to messed up blocks. In the above scenario the squad of 13 would be priority in the current system meaning they will grab 3 randoms and roll out. Then you have 42 people waiting on 22 randoms or properly formed squad. Making it all the way down to the 9 man squad would take entirely too long assuming it is any time other than prime time. This is also all assuming that there is not 14 and 15 man squads jumping in during that wait scooping up all of the randoms due to their size giving them priority. This is exactly why I say there is potential that a wrong numbered squad could be left searching indefinitely. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:22:00 - [77] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy your examples are all flawed and full of bias in order to provide support for your hypothesis. Unless you magically have the actual numbers of players queuing for FW over some period of time there is no way for you to effectively model the system. By all means though keep wasting time coming up with fantasy scenarios. So you claim that when a squad of any size between 1 and 16 can be formed that everyone is going to just make sure to hop in 8s and 16s to keep in nice and orderly? You can say my numbers are flawed, full of bias, just plain stupid, full of tin foil, or any other insult you want to try but the simple fact is you have had every chance to disprove them in the slightest and have not even attempted to. It is all really basic common sense but that is obviously something that has escaped you totally. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:29:00 - [78] - Quote True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. This is absolutely a joke. Larger groups are given easier ability to queue together while mid sized groups are more likely to have actual support and randoms are still there to fill in. This lunatic agenda of screaming that not having team deploy hurts large groups is absolutely hilarious rhetoric. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 22:53:00 - [79] - Quote True Adamance wrote: deezy dabest wrote: True Adamance wrote: The Attorney General wrote: And will those 8 disparate groups stay in matches against team deploys? Unlikely. Will they wait until they have their own sixteen? So now the prereq for getting into FW is join a squad, wait until it fills then q for a match? Why should smaller groups be penalized with other steps just to play FW? Irony at its best. Why should larger groups be penalised for the unwillingness of solo players to actually contribute? The issue between out two disparate philosophies is that on one hand you have players who genuinely want to institute a real change in the FW setting. These players achieve this by communicating and working with other players. Then you have those who don't feel inclined to institute these changes. As solo players they cannot do so. Not with the current FW model we have in Dust Neither side is particularly well catered to. Certain players simply want to take the mode seriously and need the agency to deploy when they want and where they want in larger sized groups. A model that allows us to determine which areas of the FW we can deploy to and keep deploying to would benefit us. This way if solo players joined these specified matches in highly contested systems they are quickly brought to expect squad-centric gameplay whereas if they deployed to other systems and regions they could find similar groups and matches. This is absolutely a joke. Larger groups are given easier ability to queue together while mid sized groups are more likely to have actual support and randoms are still there to fill in. This lunatic agenda of screaming that not having team deploy hurts large groups is absolutely hilarious rhetoric. As I've said the sole aspect of FW that I am interested in is ensuring that it is a narrative driven persistent conflict that allows people to take it as seriously as they want. If I want to take the mode seriously I see no reason why I should not be able to. Player determined combat zones somewhat do this as larger groups would ideally convene in the more hotly contested areas while smaller group could finish themselves in less contested area. We all know that you can take it as serious as you want to. Large groups are free to sync in as much as they want and in the new system they are probably going to be met with alot more persistent higher level combat than before. Unfortunately the people like me and you who care about a narrative or lore or any of that are in the minority. FW is at its core meant to be a middle ground between pubs and PC which highly rewards coordination but allows anyone the chance to join and get the crap kicked out of them if they do not participate in more organized ways. Simply put FW is survival of the fittest to give people a chance to learn the ways of working together with the team while they hope to make it up to PC. FW is not PC and it is not meant to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.02 23:00:00 - [80] - Quote Powerh8er wrote: Shouldnt FW be more competitive than pubs? People will q sync Fw with or without team deploy, team deploy just makes it easier especially corp a vs corp b. Wish I could play more solo though, but im just too damn handsome and popular. Making corp A versus corp B as easy as possible is what PC is for. That is why an incredible amount of work has gone into lowering the barrier to entry for PC while shutting off the farmability. Just because PC has been constantly dumped on and broken for the entire history of this game does not mean we should break FW for most of the community just to make it a PC substitute. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 17:51:00 - [81] - Quote thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:04:00 - [82] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: Your own corp does Q syncs and pulled out of PC a long time ago, so I'm not sure what you are going on about. You should look into a local Low T center, it might help you stop being a cuunt. Doesn't the fact that his corp is basically already doing what he is talking about actually validate what he is saying? He has no idea. He doesn't play Dust. He just saw another cuunt posting in this thread (you) and his vag started spewing nonsense on the forums. His vag actually types. Oh good so running around calling everyone "cuunts" when you have done nothing but make yourself look like an idiot is how you make yourself feel good. That's good for you man, I am glad you found a vent for your prepubescent frustrations. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:06:00 - [83] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:16:00 - [84] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: You'd have us believe that everyone who plays this game wants Team Deploy out of a sense of maliciousness... Not everyone. But certain people and corps most definitely. Bringing in a robust system that allows team deploy would be fine. Bringing in one that is easily gamed is silly, because there will be groups who take advantage. That no one wants to admit this, and instead pretends that those persons who have a history of either boosting, exploiting or otherwise engaging in uncompetitive activities(blue donut bros!) are suddenly going to develop a sense of integrity is frankly absurd. Will be hilarious when they give it to you and it plays out how I say it will. I'll necro this thread when it does, to laugh heartily at all you scrubs. How is it easily gamed...? How does one form a 16 man team and deploy to FW in a way that consistently pits them against non-que-synched teams without constantly re-queing until they get that one magical match that they know isn't que-synched? How do they know that they aren't going against a que-synched team when entities like State Task Force and Lucent Echelon recruit team members on a Factional Loyalty basis and not on a corporation basis (arguably the only way you'd know, just by looking at the player list). Once you answer that, is that hypothesis and theory (of which it will always be because there is no way to prove otherwise) worth NOT allowing players to team deploy, if they are just going to do it anyway using current in-game mechanics? As far as boosting and exploiting, CCP has ways of tracking this. If you think you can get a team of thirty two players into an FW match for the sole purpose of boosting, good luck making those stats look in any way believable. Good luck convincing thirty two people to not talk about it outside of that group. Good luck finding thirty two people who wouldn't do it repeatedly and leave the tell tell signs of boosting. Even still, we can't punish everyone for the sake of a handful of boosters. There are more responsible players than there are not and there is no reason to make their lives hell because of something that could be fixed by a different means. And finally, who are these magical unicorn players that you speak of that boost en masse as you say? And to what end? So they can temporarily hit the leaderboards? So that they can complete their daily missions faster? So that they can cap out their SP faster? This isn't making them better players. They're not getting ISK from it. Their LP gains are predetermined and capped. There is literally no gain to boosting in FW save for SP and meta-stats which have absolutely no value other than personal accomplishment. Those are some of the considerations that need to be taken into account if we're seriously going to prevent team deploy over such isolated, minute, and largely irrelevant cases. As far as how it is easily gamed that is quite simple. 16 people in one squad and one of their friends on comms opening a squad in squad finder to make sure to serve up a nice uncoordinated squad to his friends. This may sound a bit far fetched to some but we already have people that leave battle at any sign of opposition to protect their stats so I do not think it is going too far to say they would intentionally try to setup some cannon fodder for themself. One may also argue that this is already possible and that 8 + 8 also makes this easier which would be very true but it is about finding a balance. 8 + 8 simply has less possibility of breaking team builder, more possibility of syncs not even being needed, is slightly more difficult than full 16 deploy to farm meaning it is easier for CCP to track those doing it because they stick out like a sore thumb, and gives everyone a chance to participate as oppose to dropping control of FW firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group which is what PC is suppose to be. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:18:00 - [85] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass More prepubescent spewing. Keep showing off the thought processes of those who support this so everyone can be clear that you can not think past anything but your self and maybe the few people you want to exploit the game with. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:28:00 - [86] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Attorney General - If it goes through and ends poorly, I hope you'll be around for lots and lots of "told you so". Please don't biomass/quit over this. No its not worth biomassing over but if they do make the change it will be a sure sign that CCP cares more about the whining of the farmers who have already taken a dump on the game than the game itself. It would be cool if you'd biomass More prepubescent spewing. Keep showing off the thought processes of those who support this so everyone can be clear that you can not think past anything but your self and maybe the few people you want to exploit the game with. You are an idiot. I love this game and pushed for mechanics to open up the higher levels of Dust to the population WHILE a director of the most active corp in the history of Dust. These changes would have given Molon, Dark Legion, KEQ, Pheonix Fed, and all the others sooo much content. That has been what's missing. It's the reason why these corps are all dead. There's no reason to be in a corp. They couldn't compete with the small elite groups. Persistent team play was the only way for those types of corps to hone the skill necessary to have any hope of overtaking the small elite corps in PC. I'm sorry you aren't smart enough to see that. What all of you seem to want to avoid in this discussion is that 8 + 8 is a BUFF to team play without all of the drawbacks. There is nothing about 8 + 8 that stops full 16 man team play while it does make exploits slightly more difficult so the real question becomes what are you fighting for here. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 18:44:00 - [87] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: So your concern isn't boosting or 'exploiting' but AWOXing? Welcome to New Eden? I mean, that sucks for them, but it is entirely allowed and I'd even encourage it given that there really isn't enough space drama going on in this opera xD Again, these fears are unfounded as they have no basis or proof. It is merely a hypothetical, extremely unlikely situation. If it really did become a problem, or were a problem, then people would instantly be TKing the one guy from Negative-Feedback on their their team when the rest of us are on the other side, just as an example. It is like the guy running a sniper rifle in FW. How often do you see that anymore? Players learn based on behavior and the unanimous hatred of snipers has forced them out of the game mode almost entirely. And why -shouldn't- FW go 'firmly into the hands of whatever corp can field the best 16 man group'? That is the nature of competitive. Are you saying that we shouldn't allow organized, competitive groups and entities because it isn't fair to the other team? It was never meant to be fair. If it were, it'd have a match maker. The very nature of FW is that it -IS- competitive and that is what many players find appealing about it. AWOXing newbs is a concern yes but as you stated very much a part of New Eden. My biggest concern is when instead of that other 16 man squad being randoms it is a second corp squad meaning that anyone with 32 people will have a very easy time taking part in the same types of activity that went on behind closed doors on PC districts where the big guys were capping out all at once with a 1 day booster going. Now that we have triple stacking boosters and instant SP boosts at the end of match screen it would be quite easy for anyone with 32 people to gain nearly 10 million SP in about 7 hours while also getting very close to a totally free apex suit for 16 of those 32 people. I can not say the exact amount of time it would take but based on the assumption of diminished SP happening after 7500 WP and the fact that when both are syncing against each other there is zero wait time it would take roughly 7 hours to cap out the entire pool for the week with as much boosts as possible on top of it. Obviously that would have to be adjusted for what the actual payout cap is set at but the maximum time it could take if the number was more in the 5000 area would be about 10 hours. I have avoided stating this but based on what I can figure with squad priorities and the 8 + 8 formation Q syncs are actually going to become slightly more difficult thanks to the nice even numbers. If I am correct that means that anyone who wants to sync will have to run squads sizes now of 6/6/4. This gives a variable for CCP to search by to catch frequent boosters. By simple pulling up the matches where that was the squad formation on both sides and checking the WP totals boosters are incredibly easy to catch. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:17:00 - [88] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Sure, but CCP can do that anyway and already have, regardless of the squad sizes. They keep logs of each match, henceforth why they ask us to help narrow down which match we experience issues in rather than provide, say, a video recording of the entire match itself. And, let us assume that these 32 guys (because that is what you'd have to have if you wanted to reduce the likeliness of interference and being caught by a third party) -did- run seven straight hours in some crazy attempt to literally spend an entire work day capping out by boosting. Assuming the boredom didn't kill them, they'd have to fight the battlefinder -the entire seven hour duration- to make sure that they consistently got in the same matches and not a single one of them could leave. Otherwise, they'd have other players that you can be -damn certain- would be interfering with their activities and likely posting about it here on the forums. I dunno about you, but I can barely stomach waiting an hour for a PC match to start up let alone spending seven hours hacking/re-hacking an installation. The very concept wears on my patience and I doubt anyone else has the patience for it. But as said, to what end? So they can get an APEX suit that they could have just as easily bought with ISK? So that they could hit their SP cap -with literally no competition at all-? For what, though? So that they could continue boosting with it? With 16 man deploy they would not be fighting anything which is why I am fight for keeping it to 8 + 8. Boredom is not really a defense because we have watched the same activity take place on empty PC districts and obviously they do not have to do the full amount in one shot. Is it okay for 32 people to grab 3 - 4 million SP totally for free in just a couple of hours? The new PC system is also highly based on corp activity which means this farming behavior could be used to complete all of the non AUR missions for all 32 of their members giving them a huge amount of command points which means that they could feasibly use an alt each time to farm up new command points to launch an unlimited number of free raids every day. Making it so incredibly easy to manipulate the hell out of FW will screw up the rest of the game just like how PC did before. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:27:00 - [89] - Quote thor424 wrote: ^ it's amazing a brain can be that stupid, yet function a computer and communicate with others Tell me one place where I am wrong in the fact that it unlocks massive exploits that even break the PC system which so much work has been put into building. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:32:00 - [90] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: I'm not convinced that this will be as big of a problem as you think it is, man. I apologize that I can't see it from your standpoint but I simply can't. My proposal is this: We roll out Team Deploy, since the greater community seem to be in favor of it, and if it becomes a problem we do exactly what we did with PC and cut it from the game until we can find a better system. We have seen how far that even certain people fighting their ass off to get team deploy will go to exploit the game. Quote: 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' - George Santayana Yet we are sitting here talking about shoving through a system which just like the previous version of PC allows people to make tons of risk free money and even get unique items out of it depending on what actually ends up in the DK store. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 19:45:00 - [91] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 22:14:00 - [92] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Okay I understand now. Go drink some more of the Kool-Aid. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.03 22:40:00 - [93] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It isn't unreasonable to ask sixty days of any idea. Sixty days is a reasonable amount of time to see if something works, or doesn't, and if you aren't willing to give a concept or proposal a try for sixty days - to hold your opinions and judgements until there is factual evidence with which to back it. The PC thing was bad, sure, but let us remember that this is a slippery slope argument and not everything is connected, the same, or doomed to failure automatically. That's all I will say on the matter. The same could be said about going with 8 + 8 to see what it does with the game. Considering this change also comes along with an almost totally new PC system don't you think we should give a chance to see if that system works and gives people across the game the ability to fight 16 v 16 perfectly team deployed for real stakes while they can freely fill up 16 people in FW anytime they want to with only a touch of extra effort. Someone asked the real question earlier. What is the rush? Why is it that we have to have this right now without even letting things play out in the slightest with what CCP has decided? It is strictly opinion but I will say that this thread was started by and continuously fought in to get this rushed through by the person that was behind the total shut down of PC. I would also like to point out that we are a small group here even discussing this because the majority of the faction players are very happy with the fact that they and all of FW is getting a buff here. Lol, you realize that Kain Spero making the Big Blue Donut (I prefered waffle but nobody would go for it) was instrumental in getting PC reformed in the first place, right? Like, we'd still be locking districts and farming ISK if he hadn't done what he did. You have to -SHOW- CCP how broken the mechanic is in order for it to become a problem, that has always been the case. You have to break something in order to get it fixed. That and stating that Team Deploy is doomed to failure because of who is advocating it is a logical fallacy. Ad Hominem, certainly, but I'm pretty sure it is also a No True Scotsman sort of deal as well... Okay I understand now. Go drink some more of the Kool-Aid. A good friend once told me something that is relevant here: "The squeaky wheel gets the grease." I'll let you sit and think on that for a while. And if you can make billions of ISK and **** on an entire community in the process of trying to draw attention to the problem then why not. Oh and that makes it okay to fight for putting more exploits in the game? How long will that squeaky wheel pour ISK out to people before it gets the grease? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:08:00 - [94] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.04 08:52:00 - [95] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Forget about him hes probs jealous that he missed out of the free ISK and now hes seeking for revenge with stupid arguments that have no substance to them. No substance when I have very clearly shown out to not only farm a crazy amount of SP but also how to give yourself a very clear advantage in PC is quite funny. I am also very far from needing ISK and have not needed ISK since about 2 weeks after I started this game. What advantage? Your are conflicting yourself more and more, first the complain about the huge ISK generation in PC 1.0 which made alot of people rich and now you complain that this could happend aswell in FW. If you havent noticed the rich players from PC 1.0 dont need LP to play PC. So stop coming up with this nonesense. No my point is that FW will be a giant farmville for command points which is what makes all of PC 2.0 work. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:19:00 - [96] - Quote thor424 wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: thor424 wrote: Why would playing together as a team, generating CP for a shot at PC be a bad thing? These are the necessary ingredients to make it all work. If farming means to play the game and try to win then call me a farmer and sign me up. People "farm" pubs every day all day to the detriment of all the random people in the match with them. Why is Deezy not outraged about this? There is NOTHING more damaging to the game than all the solo derp town, passive BS that goes on in pubs. FW is not required to earn CP. CP are beeing handed out for completing missions which are limited to 10 every day per char. So thats not going to be a issue. My point is that it should be encouraged for corps to run together and the CP takes care of itself. To raise the bar in Dust it will take people learning how to squad and play within a team. PC is the bar, yet there's no ramp to get there. When people can lock up FW behind closed doors to complete every one of their missions in one battle there becomes an issue. Specially when they can do this with alts to just continue to generate more and more CP. Sure this is more work than before to exploit PC but we know how far people in this game are willing to go for an advantage. As far as why am I not outraged by the terrible way pubs work I very much am and have made quite a few recommendations for payouts to be adjusted to only fix activity which is in essence a buff to team play, bitched enormously about the removal of the WB which was a nerf to team play, now seriously wonder how we can be allowed to go on with no freaking names in team chat which also messes up the possibilities of team play, and a few other things. What I had to say on those subjects was apparently either stupid or not outrageous enough to spark controversy so landed in the depths of forum purgatory never to seen again. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 15:50:00 - [97] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Actually... It does... Because newer players learn about the team-play mechanics that are available, such as squad orders and orbital bombardment. There are a lot of new players who learned about this game from when we were auto-squaded together and even today the newer players that I get into the game learned through joining squads in the squad finder. New players learn the game a lot faster through social interaction, not trial and error. There is merit to auto-squading and there is nothing wrong with putting an option in the Neocom that allows a player to disable it. While you are both correct that auto squading could help it would end up just as useless as being auto placed in team comms in no time. Many players have decided they only want to run solo which is fine by me because who am I or who is anyone else to tell them how to play the game. Those players would just continue to create solo squads, comm into empty channels, or leave their comms turned off. What I would very much support is extending the academy and adding auto squads there along with some basic accomplishments that show them how to use those squads to ensure new players are familiar with these mechanics. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:42:00 - [98] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: If autosquad paired noobs to vets, then yes, the noobs would benefit. Right up until those mixed squads get tired of getting wrecked by proper squads. We end up with more of the same; stomp or be stomped with a touch of "well, we tried". Like with squadfinder. We can do better than this. For newberries to thrive, NPE needs more of a safe zone. Edit: And for bacon's sake, don't try to pin Dust's woes on soloists. They buy AUR and play the game like everyone else, and they have absolutely nothing to do with Dust's problems. (* not directed at Aeon). Instead of local we should have a rookie help chat like Eve does that vets could join to help newbies. A simple notification that pops up on login until you reach 3 - 5 million SP saying check there and squad up would do wonders for new player experience. By making it a channel that vet has to apply to get into would keep the amount of moderation needed to keep the channel from getting trolled into oblivion at a minimum. Then once that 3 - 5 million SP has been reached they are simply moved to their normal local chat. There are several work arounds to the local chat system that would make this work with minimum effort. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:54:00 - [99] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Deezy, again with this whole locked door thing. As long as their is a rolling popluation in FW matches keep spawning. Also on the matter of Lego pieces not fitting and that whole pick a number nonsense. Leither was kind enough do some math: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84423423/computer_login_how_to.pdf That is impressive but I see no accounting for a couple of issues. The fact that squad size prioritization is already in effect. The fact that this same math must take place on both sides which means at any given time if one side has 16 players ready and the other does not a 16 man squad can hit search on the not ready side and force the process to start over on the other side meaning those players who were not ready for battle are left waiting. This is the slim case that I point out could lead to infinite search times for a group that has bad luck. What is also being missed is that we need a system that works as efficiently as possible with in the player community we have. We saw the affects of not understanding that in previous versions of matchmaking that were built for larger groups and ultimately turned into a serious mess for anyone that was not a top level vet. Why should the same mistake be made with FW? So yet again I have to ask why we should rush into a system that we know has a ton of unknown variables that could be extremely damaging instead of going with 8 + 8 so that everyone that wants persistent team play can even see if it is enough of a buff for them. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 16:57:00 - [100] - Quote The argument for "as long as there is a rolling population" is terribly flawed. We know this simply from the fact that FW has to be jump started every morning and the fact that players outside of the US have major issues joining FW unless of course they play during prime US hours. Being that we already have those exclusions for a large percent of our very small player base why strive to make those exclusions worse? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:02:00 - [101] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: What baffles me is the flawed logic behind the anti-team deploy position. It's like people took pills to make them forget that we already have a team deploy system in place. It's really starting to seem like the folks that don't want more competition are those that refuse to give the community the tools to make their own groups easily. I've said it before and I'll say it again 8+8 doesn't effect the current people such as myself that run syncs. It only makes it easier, but it doesn't solve key problems like needing to sync via voice or allowing teams to search more than two factions at a time. I want more teams floating around in FW to increase the quality of the matches and to make it where corps can build themselves up so they can compete in FW and even PC should the so choose. I'm sorry but the solo crowd trying to monopolize all 5 instant deploy game modes seems like short-sighted selfishness. On top of this the Dust community has been asking for a way to instantly deploy teams for years. 8+8 will solve the problem for the most part for the elite crowd, but leaves those less knowledgeable about syncing in the dirt. Again, since we already have 16 man team deploy via q-syncs why not codify it? The queue nonsense is just that and forcing players to have complete sets of 4, 8, or 16 is silly concept since the player population and natural variation in how many people have in their groups will solve the team builder issue just as it does today. The only argument that has any merit and the only one in discussion by CCP and CPM with any seriousness is as follows: should a 16 man unit be allowed to fight against a variation of a 16 man unit (8x2, 8x1+4x2, 4x4, 4x1 +1x12, etc.)? The rest of these arguments are quite frankly a load of garbage that clouds the actual issue. What bothers me is the fact that you claim there is a team deploy system in place with absolutely zero evidence. People are able to Q sync easily because of low numbers in FW and squad prioritization. This has nothing to do with a team deploy system like you are proposing and the possible issues which it presents. The dev post you linked very clearly stated that CCP Nullarbor is working on it but it is NOT being deployed in that update. There was nothing else said about it following that and someone else even linked Ratatti talking about much of that update having been completely removed at this point. So as I said before unless you are revealing something you learned as CPM or there is absolutely zero evidence what so ever that the system you keep claiming even exists. Which is it? You keep saying you want more teams running around but you have also made it pretty clear you do not give a flying **** about the negative consequences for anyone that does not have a 16 man team. I for one am quite happy that more people around here do not have your ignorant view of screw everyone else as long as I get what I want. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:12:00 - [102] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Again, I was present when CCP set up team deploy as it stands in FW. I know for a fact that it was intentional. This has been stated publicly by CCP on a few occasions including fanfest round tables etc. so it isn't some gotcha moment. The matchmaker that was removed was for public matches and had nothing to do with Faction Warfare which is a separate system. So you are revealing information (or claiming to) that was obtained under NDA with CCP and using that as your argument? You have yet to show any of these public statements that you are claiming so it all has a bit of a stink to it. The only thing you linked stated exactly to the contrary of what you are saying. Show me any of this evidence and I will gladly admit that I was far in the wrong. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 20:59:00 - [103] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Bro, I'mma cut you off right there and just say this. It isn't Kain's sole responsibility to show evidence as to validate -your- fears or to endlessly show you reasons why you shouldn't be afraid. Likewise, you are under no obligation to agree with him, but what is for certain is that if you aren't willing to accept evidence given that doesn't necessarily make you 100% right and the rest of the world 100% wrong. It is okay to demand a logical position but to outright dismiss all evidence provided while submitting nothing true yourself is like arguing God versus Evolution. I.m not asking him to validate my fears I am asking him to validate what most would consider the entire groundwork of his argument. I have already said in detail how to manipulate team deploy to pad stats, farm SP, and even manipulate the new PC system. The only argument anyone has had for those is "people won't do that because it takes work." Well those same people would probably have you believe that no one would buy a $150 - $200 controller just to be able to shoot a little faster. While I can not show the numbers that people are or will be using to search I have shown very clearly how the increase in variations as well as having more than 50% and less than 100% of the players needed in one squad presents very possible issues that not only increase search times for those players but have the ability to leave some people out completely. I would like to point out that Kain's one and only argument to those is that team deploy already exists which he has presented zero actual evidence of other than the evidence that stated exactly to the contrary of what he is claiming. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:03:00 - [104] - Quote To be clear: There has been zero evidence presented that team deploy already exists. The fact that people can queue sync is simply squad priority which is actually something that causes an issue with having more than 50% of players in one squad. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:15:00 - [105] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. The most profitable scenario would be 16 people each from two corps who are both land holders. They would then be able to lock up districts and sell clones at will with no risk other than one of the squad leaders not hitting X at the right time. Yes this would take a somewhat considerable amount of effort. But hey everyone is too lazy to exploit things in this game right? No one uses modded controllers because they are too expensive for Dust either. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:21:00 - [106] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Kain Spero wrote: At it's core though the indication is that issues with the team builder breaking down are not based in any kind of real math. This is a textbook optimization problem, and optimization is a very real kind of math, Kain Spero. Restricting input sizes to 4, 8 or 16 would absolutely result in less process time and - more importantly - substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs. If you think I'm trying to fool you, ask Demens Grimwulff. Or get Leither in here to defend his theory. Leither's math is fun and appears to be accurate, but for these purposes, it is incomplete and assumptive. Edit: You've got a billion Isk, right? Care to make a wager? You're completely right that the problem is irrelevant, but you kinda say: "The problem is irrelevant" and then "The problem is actually relevant" in two subsequent sentences. Your statement "substantially lesser odds of oddly shaped inputs getting hung up in queue while awaiting complementary pairs" is unclear for two competing reasons: It is precisely a statement which is equivalent to the counting problem I attempted to detail in my discussion. It's clear that the problem is difficult, and that the results don't necessarily match your claimed intuition about the impact of larger squad sizes has on the proportion of "good" squad partitions. In fact, my proof was incorrect for a number of reasons, though I've finally turned up what looks to be a paper by an undergraduate or graduate student pair that can be used to put the question to rest for a few basic examples. https://www.rose-hulman.edu/mathjournal/archives/2008/vol9-n2/paper5/v9n2-5pd.pdf ; I'm checking it and then I'll have to futz around with some CAS stuff. All of the discussion of proportions of valid partitions is completely irrelevant to the problem at hand. We have absolutely no clue as to how frequently groupings of particular sizes typically arrive in the queue. If solo players turn up excessively often then the entire discussion is meaningless. This isn't a matter of optimization, it's a matter of queuing theory, and a complicated matter at that even if we had the information that we're missing. There are so many better points of contention in this discussion space than trying to make an argument based on mathematics that none of us have the time to synthesize. The statement is entirely vacuous without more information and more analysis. Even further, it completely ignores the psychological aspect of how the queuing environment will probably change as players respond to new conditions. I'm not entirely caught up on this thread because it has run so long. Perhaps you were suggesting that we should just restrict groups to sizes of 4, 8, and 16 wholesale in FW. That might not be a terrible idea for a number of psychological and gameplay reasons, but in terms of math? I'm not so sure. First of all I will say that making it so that only 1 - 8 and 16 man squads can deploy would entirely work and null my entire argument. I will go even further and say that I would 100% support that if it were the discussion on the table. Back to the math stuff. The simple issue here is that you are trying to calculate based on a clean slate which is simply not the case. We already have squad prioritization in effect which means that would have to be reworked as well before 16 man can be added. Before someone tries to say it: Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:35:00 - [107] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Kain, you down to get the NF boys together and Q-synch 32 people, 16v16? I can record it. The most profitable scenario would be 16 people each from two corps who are both land holders. They would then be able to lock up districts and sell clones at will with no risk other than one of the squad leaders not hitting X at the right time. Yes this would take a somewhat considerable amount of effort. But hey everyone is too lazy to exploit things in this game right? No one uses modded controllers because they are too expensive for Dust either. O.o????? The hell are you going on about now with this clone selling business? Land holders? The hell does any of that have to do with Faction Warfare???? It has to do with exactly the point I made earlier about intentional CP farming through the same exploits. Considering CP is required for almost every move you make in PC as well as provides access to discounted clone packs any CP exploit is a serious one that has the means to offset the many months now that has been spent trying to work out PC 2.0. CP is required to sell clones. No CP no passive ISK from clone generation, more CP more passive ISK and district credits to spend in the "unique market" CP is required to change timers. If you want to lock districts through moving timers around you need a large flow of CP exactly what exploiting this could provide. CP can be used for cheaper clone packs which can also be used to launch locking attacks as well as give any corp a larger advantage than their corporation activity is meant to dictate. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 21:39:00 - [108] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Before someone tries to say it: Not once have I argued against team deploy in this thread. I have argued against just throwing it into the current system as fast as possible without even thinking about what else needs to be there besides " a UI change " as Kain claims is all that is needed. Well, then after all this argument it's good to know that we all basically support team deployment then. I thought I had made it clear a few times but in the mess that this thread has become I can see it being missed. I 100% support persistent team play. I 0% support just tossing it into the current system to rush it in and potentially screw over a large portion of the player base. Also with team deploy in place at the right time CCP would have the time to explore counter measures above the ones which currently exist and would not properly limit advantages that come from nothing more than manipulating bad mechanics. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:10:00 - [109] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: No, I've never purported that the conclusion here has any bearing on the actual situation from a mathematical standpoint. What I've set about to show is that yours and Adipem's intuitions are absolutely not useful, and that's patently the case. It should be clear to you and Adipem now that the existence of "bad" partitioning configurations is only a single, tiny observation in what would be a detailed investigation. For the length of the history of this discussion, I've been emphasizing that the fact of the matter is that there are no useful conclusions to draw on a mathematical basis without substantial further analysis of a type none of us are going to do. "There will be odd parts!" is a concern that is neither here nor there without information that we don't have. The problem is not simple, and both of your continuing posting patterns make it clear that you don't really understand the level of analysis necessary to draw even cursory conclusions. I'm not really going to sit around arguing this point much further, since I'm pretty sure only you and Adipem insist on trying to draw mathematical conclusions without any particular rigorous basis in fact. From the outset, the only take away that I want any reader to take away is this: Without proof it's completely impossible to say whether a mathematical statement is true or false. Claiming that a statement is true because of a few observations that make you "feel that way" is a great place to start investigating proof, but it's not a valid place from which to draw a conclusion. When you take squad prioritization into play it makes a very big difference which is why I mention the fact that you are simply operating from the assumptions of a clean slate being what we are talking about. The current system was never built to handle just randomly throwing in squad sizes like we are discussing here. If it was built to handle it we would not be having this discussion because CCP would have gone ahead and dropped 16 man deploy into the mix. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:44:00 - [110] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You're making a lot of assumptions about "what, and Why" and forgetting that the previous dev team loved to overcomplicate simple things. We are currently at the mercy of a mad scientist dev who seems to think that simplicity that even a 12 year old can understand isn't a bad thing if it can add to the game. There is not "Matchmaker wasn't built to handle 16 man squads. the matchmaker doesn't give a crap if the squad is 16 or 6. In fact, if there's multiple 16s in the queue all the matchmaker has to do is pull the two highest in the queue, drop them then go back to Mu sorting of the smaller squads and randumbs. Every argument I have seen based on math eitehr needs to sht numbers proving the thesis or admit that the thesis is based on an asspull. The team builder in FW is not the match maker in pubs. It does not have Mu or anything else. It simply slams 16 people together as fast as possible while making sure squads get to go in first. CCP Rattati wrote:* Yokal Bob wrote: Matchmaking will probably put a 16 man squad against randoms in FW. Such is the way of dust there is no matchmaking in FW Source Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 22:59:00 - [111] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: deezy dabest wrote: The team builder in FW is not the match maker in pubs. It does not have Mu or anything else. It simply slams 16 people together as fast as possible while making sure squads get to go in first. OMG! YOU PAID ATTENTION! It appears you DO seem to understand how the matchmaker works. Now apply the following logic: Greater squad size = acceleration to a higher spot on queue. Priority of deployment: Full Squads. THEN partial squads THEN Randumbs. It has always been thus, even in FW. It does not simply roll the random number generator and go "All right, what miserable mismatch can I pop out of my ass today???" And correct. Rattati did not apply any new matchmaking logic other than what was already there to FW deployment. Now remember this and go back to one of my examples and you will see exactly the problem I am trying to point too. Obviously you have not bothered to read anything I said and instead surmised an opinion based on peoples responses or quick skims. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 23:08:00 - [112] - Quote If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest Evil Syndicate Alliance. 2	Posted - 2015.07.05 23:19:00 - [113] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: If we get 16 man deploy any randoms can just search solo and AFK with whatever group they get dropped into. Do we really want to teach randoms that they can just roll the dice for a match to AFK a free win a portion of the ime because they got dropped in with a 14 man squad who was just short? I thought AFKing was bad enough in FW. What game are you playing? This happens all the time already. You obviously missed the portion which I underlined for you. Since there is already a problem does that mean we should make it worse? Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

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