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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6886	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:22:00 - [1351] - Quote I don't know why you keep bringing up that thread. Magnus proposed a bad EWAR model. I tried to explain why it was a bad model. Magnus mistook me for a troll and threw mud, so I threw mud back (which was a mistake on my part). But my lapse of judgment and decorum doesn't make his idea less bad; his model was flawed and it wouldn't have worked, and I stand by every point I made in that thread. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:25:00 - [1352] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Pretty Please with sugar on top take your bs elsewhere. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 18:38:00 - [1353] - Quote Where are we on getting our LAVs back? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 829	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:04:00 - [1354] - Quote Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:43:00 - [1355] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 739	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:45:00 - [1356] - Quote Meee One wrote: One Eyed King wrote: @Meee One. Logis were overperforming as slayers, that is what got them into trouble, not that they were killing anyone at all. All suits should have some viability with shooting other players. A balanced Logi should be able to rep, provide scans, and shoot mercs among other supporting actions. It becomes imbalanced when the degree to which they do any of the above results in over performance and abuse. That goes the same for any suit or vehicle. Well,if my ability to rep gets reduced via overheat. My shooting time increases because of overheat. I personally picked logistics so thay my shooting responsibilities would be minimal,and yet players want to reduce my supporting ability? Lolno Mad is saying he wants an overheat to add skill and he's bored. All he has to do is stop repping and shoot,but as rep tools are infinite he wouldn't have a valid excuse to give squad mates. So instead of being candid with his crew he comes here to try to have an excuse made for him. It's terribly childish,and i can see through it easily. He doesn't want to be a logistics,he wants to be an assault with more than 1 equipment slot. Agreed. An overheat that seizes the repair or more diminished returns with WP are not the answer. It is a barrier to new logis that creates a steep learning curve and will also lead to cursed frustration whenever that limit is reached in battle. Especially in a situation where those reps would have allowed your team to hold a point, survive, or turned the tide of battle. Overheat no. A warm up capacitor to reward actual repping - meaning that when it is repairing it is increasing in efficiency and when it is tethered but not repping it begins to cool down - is a method that rewards active repping with a direct battle effect. This affects repping behavior and has a greater possibility to lead to the desired behavior of smart repping rather than "leashing" an entire match. That said - you can't force anyone to play the way you want them to. All we can do is provide tools and allow players to use them however they see fit. You will have that guy that is dedicated to pistols, RE's, LZR, or other situational/unique items and we cant change that. All that can be done is to give fair rules of play for all. An overheat is punishing to a class that draws players for the reason that they don't want to/or have to shoot, or they are just not good at it. But being able to leash another player, help out, and provide other support may full that need of fun, purpose, or entertainment that we all seek by playing games, and that's perfect for people like me. I believe that the majority of users would find the overheat a bane to the class and alienate players even further. While it is unique, and may offer a minority of users a new thrill for a while the permanency of such a change, and how that might affect future changes in the mechanics of other items is not something that can be supported. Capacitors or warm up mechanics maybe. Seizing/stopping/arresting/halting/etc.... just no. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 833	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:46:00 - [1357] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and the GalLogi seems UP somehow... Maybe it should lose a sidearm slot in favor of a second light weapon slot. Oh and it should run up vertical surfaces. Oh and it should run down vertical surfaces too. Oh and it should be while it dual-wields Kubo PlasmaCannons that have over and under-barrel scanners that autoscan in 720 degree arcs at 10db. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 739	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:47:00 - [1358] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.24 19:59:00 - [1359] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope But "Fear" made every logi a target. It is similar to modern profiling: color = crime. Therefore all yellow logis were under scrutiny for the actions of one races class and bonus. CalLogi technically wasn't even "bonused" , it just happened to be able to stack Damage Mods during the time period when Damage Mods had no stacking penalty. DM stacking without penalty + ability to self-logi (its own ammo/rephives) = a Slayer's go-to fit. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 740	Posted - 2015.02.25 01:29:00 - [1360] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Considering the slayer logis, the only real problem with that ever, was the cal logi, which had way to good bonuses. Wasn't the Slayer GalLogi at some point as equally bad as the Slayer CalLogi? I recall Nyain San switching from 6 of one to 6 of the other, but I don't recall which was FoTM first. All long ago, of course; Slayer Logis have been dead for quite some time (barring that "Vagheitan" guy from AE). Nope But "Fear" made every logi a target. It is similar to modern profiling: color = crime. Therefore all yellow logis were under scrutiny for the actions of one races class and bonus. CalLogi technically wasn't even "bonused" , it just happened to be able to stack Damage Mods during the time period when Damage Mods had no stacking penalty. DM stacking without penalty + ability to self-logi (its own ammo/rephives) = a Slayer's go-to fit. I believe that the statement is not entirely accurate. While damage mod scaling had yet to be implemented even that was fixed after the "slayer logi" problem was fixed. As previously posted the Cal Logi's bonus supplied it with extreme shield HP. On a Caldari with low recharge time, 4 low slots for armor/reppers, and a natural 5hps rep - it was the most survivable Tank to date as this was well before a lot of other balancing took place (like the TAR god gun). Damage mods were secondary to the survivability of such a suit as going toe to toe with any other logi or assault, even heavies at the time, it would come out the victor and quickly recharge all HP. While carrying nanos to refill ammo. The CPU nerf, initial bonus change to regulators, took care of the threat. To further specify: at the time Logis had more modules than assaults and better CPU/GP to fit with. The extra module slots, and the Cal bonus worked in tandem to create a suit that, despite worse base stats, could still survive better than an assault. Since the weapons had not been balanced the extra module slots, AFTER the CalLogi bonus fiasco, did make a DMG mod logi desirable - BUT low base stats often stopped players from using the logi for slaying... but not all. Until the Module efficiency re-balancing and the Slot balancing that put Assaults at the top of the fitting charts the potential for a "slayer logi" was still there. But no longer. The bonuses do not support survivability, low base stats ensure worse performance, module stacking penalties apply uniformly (except armor and scouts) making the best suit for modules, survivability, and overall better performance for slaying most commonly and Assault... or it was until scout upgrades and other tampering that has made scouts the more popular suit choice. Moving ON. We have derailed this thread long enough. How bonuses interact with other classes, equipment, vehicles, etc. does have import as to how the logi class should be balanced. Though direct scout balancing threads are best for some issues, bringing up a concern in this thread on the interaction of that bonus is input that should be taken into consideration. Just as "leashed heavies" would have some valuable input as to how they like being tethered. AS several pages have been spent on comments as to whether leashing is acceptable from a support/logi standpoint we should hear from the Heavies. Do they appreciate it? Do they care? What do they want? They rely on us shouldn't we have some direction from them? Yes. Their first input would probably be visual notification that they are being repped. This we know. What about the survivability of their logis? Do they often die before the skirmish is over? Do they outlast the Heavy? Do most of them want us to be firing when we could be repping them? Answers to these questions are better than a Support oriented class dictating how it should be done. What do they think of a Seize/Overheat Mechanic? - What do you believe their answer would be... You already know don't you. (no question marks - these are statements). You know they would call it stupid, pointless, and make the same points that have been made about such a mechanic. HOW our work affects players should be the ultimate guiding principle when speaking to equipment. That incorporates changes to bonuses, base stats, EQ pricing, and more. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 247	Posted - 2015.02.25 15:22:00 - [1361] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I've offered some of the reasons why GalLogi scans seem broken from the Scout's perspective. Assault users will point out that there's no benefit to running damps with GalLogi scans in play. Three complex damps to beat team-wide, 200m scans? Not reasonable. Better off sticking with King HP (which is bad for build variety and bad for balance) How does cost factor into that balance issue? Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? Because what I find unreasonable is that you can fit three stealthy scouts, each one damped enough to avoid my proto scans, and even if I miraculously killed all three, their combined isk loss would be less than if one of them kills me. That's not balanced either. I think you'll find a lot of resistance to the effectiveness of stealthy scouts disappears, if they actually have to pay for their mistakes. Losing a suit that's almost free, because you were detected by a suit that costs at least three times as much when fitted with proto equipment, IS balanced. If scanner logis cost 1/4th as much as they do, I'd concede your claim that GalLogi scans are OP. They aren't because of their expense and the cheapness of the multiple counters that obliterate them. We all know my hypothetical above isn't realistic, because my logi is more likely to die than even a single one of those "paper thin" scouts. Don't suggest anybody should win the EWAR competition without paying for it. There's nothing balanced about that. Each of my proto scanners costs more than a scout suit that can easily gank me. Should logis an heavies have an incentive to fit damps too? Should we not show up on scouts' passives unless they've fit more precision than we've fit damps? I'd be up for an psuedo-EWAR-tiericide. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6929	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:12:00 - [1362] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: How does cost factor into that balance issue? I would agree with you if you were to say, "... a Logi equipped with proto gear is too expensive; if I die once I lose money, and this isn't the case with other suits; we should do something to fix this disproportionate expense." This statement is reasonable and makes practical sense. By contrast, a statement to the effect of "... my proto scanner should always scan X because it is expensive" makes no more sense than "... my proto weapon should always kill Y because it is expensive". Neither of these statements are reasonable. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 836	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:15:00 - [1363] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: How does cost factor into that balance issue? I would agree with you if you were to say, "a Logi equipped with proto gear is too expensive; if I die once I lose money, and this isn't the case with other suits; we should do something to fix this disproportionate expense." This statement makes practical sense. By contrast, a statement to the effect of "... my proto scanner should always scan X because it is expensive" makes no more sense than "... my proto fine rifle should always kill Y because it is expensive". Neither of these statements makes practical sense. Look, Ma!!! Input that isn't total trash!!! Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 1035	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:24:00 - [1364] - Quote High end injectors should provide temporary damage resistance. All injectors should restore some ammo Who cares what some sniper has to say. CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6929	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:37:00 - [1365] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: REDACTED. BECAUSE. I removed the part you disagreed with. It detracted from the point I was trying to make. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:48:00 - [1366] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: High end injectors should provide temporary damage resistance. All injectors should restore some ammo I could see a small amount of ammo being given... but I'm not there on a a damage resist. Yes, it would be nice and Yes I'd like to have more of a guarantee that when I pick someone up they'll be able to return to battle but personally I think the new shield regen injectors are doing mostly covers that. Really, I guess I'm just worried that a damage resist on pick up would result in less discriminate use of needles and more innappropriate pickups, since people will rely on the resist instead of safety awareness when picking up. What if.... the nanites in the injector had a fixed value, which increased going up the tiers. That value would equal some amount of healing, for ex at a 1:1 ratio. So an injector of 500 nanites did 500 hp of healing. Now, if the clone being resurrected only had say, 375 hp the difference between the 500 vs the 375 (125 nanites) was converted to ammo? Maybe at a different ratio, but still converted. Numbers would need some playing around with (so it works for heavies AND scouts) but on the surface I think something like this could be made to work without it being a major travesty. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:55:00 - [1367] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: REDACTED. BECAUSE. I removed the part you disagreed with. It detracted from the point I was trying to make. The only solution I can think of to "too expensive" would be a steep reduction in the price of Logistics suits (and possibly EQ as well). Would be easier than trying to find a way to increase Logi pay. Actually, my comment was in agreement with your position. The tone/verbage I used I just don't feel like starting my day with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6931	Posted - 2015.02.25 18:58:00 - [1368] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: ... in agreement with your position. (and thank you!) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:01:00 - [1369] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? I don't and won't. To do so would require applying the same logic (isk cost = success) everywhere else and from what the HAV threads have produced in that direction....yeah, I'm a no. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 838	Posted - 2015.02.25 19:04:00 - [1370] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: ... in agreement with your position. (and thank you!) Just on the cost topic, bud. Don't get it twisted. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 250	Posted - 2015.02.26 01:01:00 - [1371] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you agree that whoever wins the EWAR competition for top spot, whether it the detectors or the hiders, the supreme EWAR position should be the more expensive option? I don't and won't. To do so would require applying the same logic (isk cost = success) everywhere else and from what the HAV threads have produced in that direction....yeah, I'm a no. No, it really doesn't require applying the same logic more broadly. I'm not suggesting that isk cost should always equal success, just that there should be some reason for a huge disparity. Cost is one of many factors that can help (as opposed to being the sole determining factor) balance the elements of a game. One (of many) possible indicator of an imbalance can be a huge cost differential. I don't think its unreasonable to suggest that you shouldn't be able to field an effective scout fitting that avoids my scans, for a fraction of the cost of one piece of scanning equipment, when that fit can also reliably gank me 9/10ths of the time. At the very least that circumstance should give us pause when Adipem suggests that GalLogi scans are OP. GalLogis are less survivable, more expensive, less lethal. How exactly is that OP? I'm only suggesting that perhaps our being less survivable and less lethal would be a little less Under-Powered, if we weren't also wildly more expensive. That's really not as simple as, "more expensive should always win." There should be a reason for why a bargain is disproportionately effective. Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6938	Posted - 2015.02.26 01:11:00 - [1372] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity; it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedBleach LeSanglant Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 742	Posted - 2015.02.26 02:46:00 - [1373] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity; it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. As Gwyn Stated there are many factors to determine balance. A piece of that factoring are the veracity of generalizations and determining if they are quantifiable or not. CCP may have the data needed, but lets look at the statement made of: Adipem Nothi wrote: 1. Running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. and Adipem Nothi wrote: 2. it is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. 1. True at face value. Are we comparing like activities, are we talking about trading situations by putting a 600hp logi running around or the same scout using an active scanner around friendlies? Taking into account speed, regen, stealth, etc. the risk is decidedly lower than it might sound compared to a logi int the same situation - else why would it be the suit of choice? And what action is being taken? Running around the redline sniping is hardly as dangerous as being on the battlefield. Running in an enemy free zone is hardly risky... so what exact situation are you trying to create here for comparison? A hot point battle at a letter that is constantly being attacked and the blues are holed up inside while a scout runs around outside looking for stragglers.... 2. Possible. But this is hardly defined. Are you saying that if the logi and scout switched places one would be at more risk than the other? are you saying that all/ most users of active scanners are embedded among friendlies? would it surprise you to find out that most are running scans on the front lines or from different areas outside 'the blob"? are you assuming that all logis are team players and stay with the friendlies most of the time? are you stating that the logi is at low risk because they are with the team? are you assuming that "shoot the logi first" is not the primary objective of most experienced players? Around an objective or with blue/green dots every suit is at risk. This is a shooter. Object -> to win -> shoot reds... so what are we trying to say? In the same situation would a logi survive as opposed to a scout? The comparisons are classically apples to oranges. Which can be done when measuring nutritional content in the context of dietary human health or vitamin C values. But comparing one situation to an entirely different situation based on assumptions, without explanation or specifics, isn't helpful to build a discussion. I get that you are fighting for the scout and how the Gal bonus affects the play, but make something that is comparable. Give something that can be worked with as opposed to pigeon-holed stereotypes. I appreciate many of your statements, but I feel like this one was not as well constructed or thought out. It seemed reactionary. The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1551	Posted - 2015.02.26 07:06:00 - [1374] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Stealth isn't getting a bargain as running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. It is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Lol. Now you're starting to sound like a logi hater. Let me too make an equally stupid comparison. What if when you were going to KN someone they had to press X to accept? Injectors require X to call for help (one hit heal),why don't KN require X for permission to kill (one hit kill)? My point? Things aren't as one colored as you are trying to get sympathizers to believe. And if you continue bashing logistics,imma have to debunk your posts. For example: >Risky >Cal scout 50 sp/s and lowest delay The door is that way. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6945	Posted - 2015.02.26 13:17:00 - [1375] - Quote Fact Checking =/= Bashing Logistics Gyn Wallace opined that stealth play is low risk. It isn't. This is a poor premise upon which to build an argument about balance. That's the point I'd intended to make. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 254	Posted - 2015.02.26 16:38:00 - [1376] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gyn Wallace wrote: GalLogis are less survivable, more expensive, less lethal. How exactly is that OP? ...Why should stealth get to be the bargain instead of detection? I don't know that this is a reasonable premise, Gyn Wallace. Stealth isn't getting a bargain as running around in a 400HP Scout Suit is not a low risk activity. It is certainly more risky than using an Active Scanner while embedded among friendlies. Well let's examine the premise then, and be precise in our use of language. First, let's be sure of what we mean by "risk." Are you taking a greater or lesser risk by running a suit that you can afford to die in ten times per match, while still making a profit, compared to my running a suit that puts me at a net isk loss if i die twice? Even if you die 8 times (because you can afford to play very aggressively; not because of any inherent vulnerability when your eHP AND speed are taken into account), and I die 3 times, should we describe that as you as engaging in a "high risk" activity and me engaging in a "low risk" activity? You're not being specific about whether you're risking death or isk loss. Our clones are free when we're earning isk in pubs. So long as you don't throw the match due to clone losses, or perhaps even if you do lose the match, you can easily finish weathier than when you started. What are you risking in your "high risk activity"? Risk of being detected, so I'm not as surprised when I get shotgunned in the face? A Gal logi being aware that he's about to die in the next 5 seconds, instead of some more vague time in the future, doesn't make him OP. Where you really seem to be disagreeing is with my claim that the scanning Gal Logi is less survivable. Does the 400HP scout actually have lower survivability than a scanning Gal Logi? With high-alpha weapons (REs, one-shot kill shotgunners, plasma cannons, forge guns, etc.) the disparity in eHP is irrelevant. Your speed tanking is very relevant. Your ability to chose whether to engage or disengage is relevant. Do the scouts you know actually die more than the logis? If so, are they dying because they're vulnerable, or because they know their suit is so cheap that they can play extremely aggressively? No, I don't believe your 400HP scout can reasonably be described as engaging in "high risk" activity, compared to a wildly more expensive logis, because its the cheapness of your suit that lets you play so aggressively, and hence die a fair amount, not any inherent weakness in your over all tank (ehp + speed). If the costs were reversed (if a cloak cost 150K isk, and logis could run for 30k) you'd almost never see scouts getting killed. If logis were cheap enough to run that aggressively, they'd die at least as often as scout currently die. My lowest risk spawn of the game is my initial spawn in an uplink carrying scout suit (wildly superior to logis for initial uplinks and hacks). Its so cheap I can run it without caring if I get killed. If it cost as much as a logi, so that I minded throwing them away, it would be so much easier to stay alive in that suit compared to my regular logi fits. I routinely wind up getting more kills with it than my logi. I usually have to do something incredibly aggressive to get killed, so I can respawn and start supporting my heavies. In other words, I have to do something suicidal, instead of trying to stay alive to get killed in that scout suit. That's how much more survivable a scout suit is, compared to logis. You need specifically disadvantageous circumstances for the scout to become less survivable, like trying to keep a heavy repped in a scout suit, or defending a single objective in a way that doesn't use the scout's superior mobility. Generally though, their relative survivability is not even close. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6948	Posted - 2015.02.26 17:21:00 - [1377] - Quote @ Gyn Wallace I agree with you that the role of Logi is disproportionately expensive. Why are you assuming that Scouts run BPO / Basic gear? MinScout have no choice but to run a prototype suit (and a prototype cloak) to beat GalLogi scans. Should a MinScout lose 2-3 proto suits at ~120k per suit, he -- just like you -- will lose Isk that match. In order for a Scout to earn warpoints, he must hack, engage/kill targets or use equipment. Earning WP via EQ is not the Scout's strong suit; if it were, we'd have have a role overlap issue with Logistics. The other two activities are high risk activities for a low-hitpoint unit. Stealth play has become far more risky since Falloff, and today's Scout is no where near as strong as the pre-nerf, overpowered 1.8 Scout. If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 255	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:00:00 - [1378] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Gyn Wallace I agree with you that the role of Logi is disproportionately expensive. Why are you assuming that Scouts run BPO / Basic gear? MinScout have no choice but to run a prototype suit (and a prototype cloak) to beat GalLogi scans. Should a MinScout lose 2-3 proto suits at ~120k per suit, he -- just like you -- will lose Isk that match. In order for a Scout to earn warpoints, he must hack, engage/kill targets or use equipment. Earning WP via EQ is not the Scout's strong suit; if it were, we'd have have a role overlap issue with Logistics. The other two activities are high risk activities for a low-hitpoint unit. Stealth play has become far more risky since Falloff, and today's Scout is no where near as strong as the pre-nerf, overpowered 1.8 Scout. If GalLogi scans were in balance with the pre-nerf / pre-Falloff 1.8 Scout, what are they in balance with now? Let's not change gears before we get as close as we can to resolving the previous point. Are you conceding that despite their lower HP, scouts are more survivable than logis unless they choose to behave in the most aggressive play styles available to them? Scouts can avoid enemy contact better than any other infantry, instead favoring running and hacking wherever the enemy is weakest. Scouts can chose long range weapons, like the plasma cannon or RR, and avoid any gun fight where they lack a range advantage. Scouts can run scanners too, if that's such a huge advantage. Only because most scouts run cheap fits (despite the Very rare protoscouts) do they die much from playing aggressively, not because they're inherently vulnerable when their speed and straffing are taken into account. Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal? The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6951	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:03:00 - [1379] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Do you disagree that its easier to kill a logi than to kill a scout that isn't being suicidal? Yes, it is far harder to overrun a blob and kill the Logi at its nucleus than it is to spot and kill a Scout. Edit: I am not claiming that Logi survivability is fine; I've already suggested that its speed be increased such that speed/tank paradigm is brought into balance (a couple pages back). Imbalanced (Current) Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout Balanced (Proposed) Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 849	Posted - 2015.02.26 18:24:00 - [1380] - Quote smh Adipem Nothi wrote: Fact Checking =/= Bashing Logistics Gyn Wallace opined that stealth play is low risk. This is a poor premise upon which to build an argument about balance. That's the point I'd intended to make, gentlemen. Nope. He opined it's low cost relative to its counter. You redirected the topic to risk . Adipem Nothi wrote: Any future Logi rework is going to be subject to an Official Feedback Session. I've been reasonable and polite here discussing hot-button issues with you guys; out there in a Feedback Session, people will not be. Out there, a baseless premise like "stealth play is a bargain" is guaranteed to lose your side standing. Out there, rushing to the defense of a baseless premise (see Pilots) will waste everyone's time and lose your side standing. Out there, "the door is that way" would only serve to lose your side standing. You guys are going to need solid and defensible positions in advance of this Feedback Session. You're going to need thick skin, and you're going to need reasonable and convincing responses to tough questions. One of those questions I've asked here in advance; many responses to that question have been less than convincing and reasonable. In a way, we are practicing; and in doing so, we are shoring up your arguments in advance. Cross is hand's down my favorite CPM, and I have his back should he ever need it. I favor your side by default. But if you were to build your balance arguments atop a false premise like "Scouts have it easy", I'd have no choice but to attack that false premise. It is better for everyone involved if we fight out Scout v Logi here, rather than out there in the Official Feedback Session. If Scouts and Logis were to come to mutually agreeable terms in advance, we could enter that session on the same side of the argument. ^ Another steamy pile of redirection that I'd prefer you stop dropping in here. Polite bs is still bs. Thread title is Input Request: Logistics and Support. It isn't Scouts, How do you Feel? It isn't Hey Non-Support Come and be Heard, it also isn't Practice Closing Arguments Hour. IF you have some sort of input about Support play or Logistics play, have a seat. IF you don't, as politely as possible please gtfo. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.



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