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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance
735
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 01:51:00 -
[1291] - Quote
Meee One wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Meee One wrote: As long as repair tools have a nearly 400% loss vs weapons,i'll fight cooldowns tooth and nail.
However,a warm up mechanism would be interesting.
The more you repair,the better you repair. If you stop you slowly cooldown to a low repair rate.(the starting rate)
This could be very fun. Adding a sense of timing and reward for some heavy battle repairs. And it would make repairing installations and vehicles worth it. And can add chances for other logis to get bonuses. For example: -Min gets a starting advantage (rep amount) -Amarr gets a heat increase to top out faster,seeing as it is their native tech -Gal gets a heat rep rate multiplier so they end up repping the most -Cal gets a reduction to the cooldown so they can maintain higher rep rates during combat lulls That's if shield and hybrid tools aren't added of course,then it allows for a whole more host of bonuses.
That is some good thinking :) Querry: Your Gal multiplier makes them repair more per cycle, shortens cycle, or... i'm sorry I guess i'm just not getting it. I'm confused because Minmatar are the current master reppers and this sounds like it would change that. The Min base amount advantage seems like it would still push the max.
For some numbers to help my mind with your idea, it sounds like this to me: (Imaginary numbers) repair tool base rep of 50 hp per cycle. (hpc) 1 cycle = 1second. Heat build up is 10 per sec. (h) Buildup maxed at 10. So, 10 seconds of repping = 100h = fully warmed up. Warmup multipliers could be at diff levels, but we will choose 50h and 100h for our example. 1.5x at 50 heat. and 2x at 100 heat Cooldown of 5heat per sec when not repping. Full cooldown in 20seconds I am not exploring the possibilty of race specific tools at this moment - too complicated for an example.
Minmatar starting bonus of 25% pushes initial repair tool to starting rep rate of 0s- 0h - 62.5hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75hpc 10s -100h - 125hpc
Amarr bonus of 50% to heat build up. (h) 0s - 0h - 50hpc 2.5s - 50h - 75hpc 5s - 100h - 100hpc
Caldari 50% bonus to -cooldown. Cooldown is 40seconds wow, that could be a reason to use Caldari always staying near the top of the rep cycle power. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 75hpc 10s - 100h - 100hpc
Gallente 25% bonus to rep rate multiplier. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75 (1.875 rate) 10s - 100h - 125 (2.5 rate)
OK, so I get it now. It was not as drastic as I thought. I just needed the numbers to speak to me and get it out to logic the situation. A warm up could be useful and make repping a new kind of fun, and the race would really bring a new dynamic that does not add Complexity - and that is what I think we like. Have some cool ideas but don't make it complicated for the newbros, but add some flavor for the oldbros.
I approve this idea.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1513
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Posted - 2015.02.21 01:58:00 -
[1292] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now!
"Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go.
Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits.
Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class.
Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to.
Mediums? Assault + Logistics?
Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately.
And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles.
By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier.
For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed.
Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR.
Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:02:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Cross would know better than I, but Scouts are very likely UP at the moment. An increase in GA Logi grade scans would render Scouts obsolete. I'm of the opinion that the GA Logi precision bonus should be toned down, or the bonus replaced with something logistics related and given to the AM Scout. The AM Scout has had no competitive function since Falloff killed passive recon, and active recon seems a much more appropriate role for a Scout than a Logi. Further, a maximum of two periodic, overpowered scans would be 100% less overpowered than 4.
If the GA Logi scan bonus were going to be replaced, what would you want in its stead?
Tbh,Gal logis have 0 other options. Gal have 0 other equipment that their logi can be good with. So i would have 0 other suggestions regarding a replacement,unless CCP lets us know possible options. But as for scouts getting to be better with equipment than a logistics...the answer is a resounding NO!Besides that,it's Gal tech why would Amarr be better with it? Plus scouts are supposed to be niche anyway. Used as a last resort,just read their description FFS it basically sums up to "assault with dampening instead of eHP meant to sneak by enemies". Consider the following as well,each scanner takes 15-30 seconds,with 4 you sacrifice a lot of possible WP through lost equipment. As well as leaving yourself without aid through hives and idle through cooldown timers. It's actually a pretty bad sacrifice IMO. I don't run scouts,but wouldn't a bonus to cardiac regs be more in-line with its current bonuses? Run in,reveal enemies,run out or around them. It would overcome its weakness with oodles of stamina. ------ To address your question specifically... There's obviously only 1 valid replacement,repair rate on the repair tool. If CCP adds different repair tools,shield(blue),hybrid(blue and gold),to go along with the armor (gold) one we currently have.(just change beam colors) That's when you get the chance to replace it with a worthwhile bonus. Armor repair tool: -Amarr would have the longest range -Gal would have the highest repair rate Shields: -Cal would have the longest range -Min would have the highest repair rate -or- Shields: -Cal would have the highest repair rate and longest range Hybrid (1/2 as effective as the others): -Min would have the highest repair rate and longest range. But as it currently stands i'd say there isn't really a fair bonus to offer for poking their eyes out.
That being said I would like to clarify that logi bonuses should not only be reptools. Not that MeeeOne is suggesting that, only that latecomers to the thread may not get that. A repairtool only bonuse does not fit the overall equipment focus of the logi.
For the Gal Logi... I have to disagree with you Adipem. You have undoubtably been in a conversation about "everything needs a counter". And I agree. A fully maxed scout with 4 dampeners and the racial bonus to dampening should have a chance to escape a scan because the entire build is dedicated to it. To that same end a GalLogi with a native EWAR and not active scanner should be able to pick up most things, but dedicating every slot to precision it should weed out every scout. My opinion - I believe that LOGI should be better ewar scanning. You may feel that if both opponents were maxed that the scout should win - that's fine, but I am saying it should be a dedicated fit, no scout with 1 or 2 damps should beat a GalLogi with 1 or two precision. That is where I see it.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:09:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Meee One wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now!
"Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go.
Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits.
Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class.
Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes.
AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions.
I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized.
I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw?
Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
|
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1518
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:12:00 -
[1295] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:That is some good thinking :) Querry: Your Gal multiplier makes them repair more per cycle, shortens cycle, or... i'm sorry I guess i'm just not getting it. I'm confused because Minmatar are the current master reppers and this sounds like it would change that. The Min base amount advantage seems like it would still push the max. For some numbers to help my mind with your idea, it sounds like this to me: (Imaginary numbers) repair tool base rep of 50 hp per cycle. (hpc) 1 cycle = 1second. Heat build up is 10 per sec. (h) Buildup maxed at 10. So, 10 seconds of repping = 100h = fully warmed up. Warmup multipliers could be at diff levels, but we will choose 50h and 100h for our example. 1.5x at 50 heat. and 2x at 100 heat Cooldown of 5heat per sec when not repping. Full cooldown in 20seconds I am not exploring the possibilty of race specific tools at this moment - too complicated for an example. Minmatar starting bonus of 25% pushes initial repair tool to starting rep rate of 0s- 0h - 62.5hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75hpc 10s -100h - 125hpc Amarr bonus of 50% to heat build up. (h) 0s - 0h - 50hpc 2.5s - 50h - 75hpc 5s - 100h - 100hpc Caldari 50% bonus to -cooldown. Cooldown is 40seconds wow, that could be a reason to use Caldari always staying near the top of the rep cycle power. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 75hpc 10s - 100h - 100hpc Gallente 25% bonus to rep rate multiplier. 0s - 0h - 50hpc 5s - 50h - 93.75 (1.875 rate) 10s - 100h - 125 (2.5 rate) OK, so I get it now. It was not as drastic as I thought. I just needed the numbers to speak to me and get it out to logic the situation. A warm up could be useful and make repping a new kind of fun, and the race would really bring a new dynamic that does not add Complexity - and that is what I think we like. Have some cool ideas but don't make it complicated for the newbros, but add some flavor for the oldbros. I approve this idea. Exactly.
Cal and Gal can out repair in an extended battle,but Amarr and Min benefit from burst battles.
Balanced with their racial enemy.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1518
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:18:00 -
[1296] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Meee One wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now!
"Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go.
Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits.
Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class.
Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions. I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized. I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw? Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it. Core as in suits CCP wants players to use over 90% of the time,not basics.
Basics are terrible to force players into specialist suit.
If CCP wants 90% of the suits to be assaults and logistics,they need to balance around that idea.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
RedBleach LeSanglant
Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance
736
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:24:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Meee One wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Meee One wrote:RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Is it possible to love you more? I doubt it - You are nailing this discussion right now!
"Where does CCP see the Logi Role" is the perfect question because we don't see the Eve side of the role reflected in Dust514. - I'm not advocating or debating such a practice only agreeing that we don't have that definition and that it would be very useful. There must be a survival mechanism for the Logi, even if it was logi's didn't have a side arm because they all had a active energy shield they could throw up... but since that is equipment like that wouldn't be suit specific.... so nevermind. But we know where we want to go.
Logis as a class must excel in one or two of the traits that offer a mechanism to live in a battle. AND We need to be more that a pack mule with a specialty in 1 piece of gear. So I'm on board with most suggestions to implement that defining. I wanted best regens but best EWAR is OK too if there is some increase in survivability. As a few others have posted the roles all need definition and some qualities that make them different that then allow us to customize styles with those benefits.
Will we agree as a community? I doubt it, but with an official CCP proposal at least we would know what they are willing to look at and then we could work on ideas from there. Currently we have ideas from all over the board covering quite a full spectrum of solutions from a lighter logi to a heavier logi simply because we all see the suit handling differently and CCP has muddied the waters with stat and story values that don't nail down the class. I'm all for open game play and breaking things, but first want the balance conversation that can come from defining each class.
Before that can happen CCP needs to decide what it's 'core' is going to be. The first suits newer players will be driven to get in to. Mediums? Assault + Logistics? Then define those two (combat vs support),and balance appropriately. And after those suits are balanced,then do the other more niche roles. By balancing their core suits properly they can balance the fringe suits easier. For example: Assaults are good for eHP,sents are better,but worse for speed. Logistics is good for eWAR and hacking,but scouts are good at evasion and sabotage (also hacking) via stealth,but worse for eWAR. Fringe suits would be for very specific purposes. While core suits would be for generalist purposes. AGREE that CCP skipped over defenitions. I never even look at the core (basic?) suits because of the lack of bonuses. I always opted for a leveling system that took your cumulative bonuses and that the basic suits carried a racial and frame bonus. then the class bonus would come into play as a person specialized. I can see your point. but In my mind I never see the basics as a choice I just see specialized on the battlefield.... where else would a logi fit? Weird situation to think about. If Basic Frames were worthwhile... the whole game experience would change for newbros. For oldbros it just means another bonus and if the basics are cheaper... but what else would be the draw? Not a discussion I'm ready to get into. I'd have do to alot more thinking about it. Core as in suits CCP wants players to use over 90% of the time,not basics. Basics are terrible to force players into specialist suit. If CCP wants 90% of the suits to be assaults and logistics,they need to balance around that idea.
Wow. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing.
Seriously? CCP wants 90% of the players to be Assault and Logi? I could deal with fewer scouts - they annoy the hell out of me (and gank me to no end) - but fewer heavies and commandos too?....
Really? I mean I'm sorry to derail the thread a little bit here it's just that I thought I was caught up on most things and this just seems out there for them to want people to play logis. I get that they want the ASSAULT to have the biggest draw but I was thinking more like a 50% max.... .... huh ..... I guess that's something new to think about.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
|
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1519
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 02:41:00 -
[1298] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Wow. Honestly I had no idea that this was a thing.
Seriously? CCP wants 90% of the players to be Assault and Logi? I could deal with fewer scouts - they annoy the hell out of me (and gank me to no end) - but fewer heavies and commandos too?....
Really? I mean I'm sorry to derail the thread a little bit here it's just that I thought I was caught up on most things and this just seems out there for them to want people to play logis. I get that they want the ASSAULT to have the biggest draw but I was thinking more like a 50% max.... .... huh ..... I guess that's something new to think about.
Well,90% might be stretching it.
But it was an example of how common core suits would be.
Until CCP finds that core and balances around it,suits will always be lopsided.
Whether that core is mediums,lights,or heavies has yet to be defined.
But if it ever is,you can expect to see less and less of the non-core suits.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6814
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 04:42:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Meee One wrote: These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do.
I appreciate your earlier feedback. It hadn't occurred to me that no other Gallente equipment exists, and I agree wholeheartedly agree that Scouts shouldn't be out-EQ'ing Logis. So that we're clear, I'm not upset, and I don't hate Logis. I simply believe that the GA Logi precision bonus to Active Scans is imbalanced. I'll attempt to explain my reasoning concisely ...
The need for 15 dB scanners to "sniff out" lurking Scouts was replaced by Falloff. Today, any unit can fit a precision enhancer and protect his own flank. An SG or NK assassin on the prowl -- even when successfully evading LoS -- has his position revealed on squad TacNet with each and every takedown. Scouts are now blind as bats while cloaked, and they are required to decloak well in advance of any attack. Long story short, sneaking has been greatly diminished over the past few builds; it stands to reason that the hard counters to sneaking should follow suit.
Then there's the 21 dB, 200M, 90 degree scans. One unit with the power to illuminate entire Ambush matches. For an entire team. And at zero to no risk. Just spam those scans and stick with the blob! There's a good reason why Nyain San stompers field a GA Logi. And these massively powerful scans do more than accelerate pubstomps; they also serve to perpetuate King HP and limit build build variety. Why would an Assault even bother running damps with these things on the field?
That's my two cents on the present state of GalLogi Scans; I could go on, but this isn't my thread and I don't intend to commandeer it. I hope you guys find my reasoning reasonable. Perhaps there are other ways to deescalate GalLogi scans without altogether replacing the bonus ...
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1530
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 15:28:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Meee One wrote: These players often get upset about being scanned while flanking,preventing sneak attacks AKA what scanners were meant to do.
I appreciate your earlier feedback. It hadn't occurred to me that no other Gallente equipment exists, and I agree wholeheartedly agree that Scouts shouldn't be out-EQ'ing Logis. So that we're clear, I'm not upset, and I don't hate Logis. I simply believe that the GA Logi precision bonus to Active Scans is imbalanced. I'll attempt to explain my reasoning concisely ... The need for 15 dB scanners to "sniff out" lurking Scouts was replaced by Falloff. Today, any unit can fit a precision enhancer and protect his own flank. An SG or NK assassin on the prowl -- even when successfully evading LoS -- has his position revealed on squad TacNet with each and every takedown. Scouts are now blind as bats while cloaked, and they are required to decloak well in advance of any attack. Long story short, sneaking has been greatly diminished over the past few builds; it stands to reason that the hard counters to sneaking should follow suit. Then there's the 21 dB, 200M, 90 degree scans. One unit with the power to illuminate entire Ambush matches. For an entire team. And at zero to no risk. Just spam those scans and stick with the blob! There's a good reason why Nyain San stompers field a GA Logi. And these massively powerful scans do more than accelerate pubstomps; they also serve to perpetuate King HP and limit build build variety. Why would an Assault even bother running damps with these things on the field? That's my two cents on the present state of GalLogi Scans; I could go on, but this isn't my thread and I don't intend to commandeer it. I hope you guys find my reasoning reasonable. Perhaps there are other ways to deescalate GalLogi scans without altogether replacing the bonus ... But don't those 200m scans have a 30 second cooldown?
That and you must consider the logistics suit itself.
Amarr has the most eHP at 300. Min has the lowest at 240.(the same as an AM scout)
Yet all logistics are still slower than their basic frame,and even 160 eHP advantaged assault counterpart.
Logistics sacrifices speed and eHP for those unique advantages with equipment,yet can cost more to die faster.
For example: http://www.protofits.com/fittings/view/0/7831
That fit is just with the cost of equipment. 0 modules,0 weapons,just equipment.
Logistics must pay more to have less eHP,less speed,less stamina,less offensive power,less eWAR.
And logistics is singled out first every time.
So IMHO for all the sacrifices logistics has to make i believe they each should be game breakingly OP with their respective equipment.
That aside there's really nothing that can replace precision,exept cooldowns. So take your pick,super scans every once in a while -or- weak scans all the time.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6820
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 16:17:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Meee One wrote: ... and you must consider the logistics suit itself. Amarr has the most eHP at 300. Min has the lowest at 240.(the same as an AM scout) Yet all logistics are still slower than their basic frame,and even 160 eHP advantaged assault counterpart.
Current Speed/Tank Paradigm Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Logi < Assault < Scout
Balanced Speed/Tank Paradigm Tank: Heavy > Commando > Assault > Logi > Scout Speed: Heavy < Commando < Assault < Logi < Scout
^ I've personally proposed this 5 or 6 times now. I'm of the opinion that Assault and Logi speed profiles should be swapped. Sounds like you and I might be in agreement.
Meee One wrote:That aside there's really nothing that can replace precision,exept cooldowns. So take your pick,super scans every once in a while -or- weak scans all the time. This is an interesting idea. Swapping precision for cooldown would deescalate the Counter Sneak side of Sneak vs Counter Sneak, and a higher precision baseline for competitive scans (especially if more frequent) would encourage Assaults to drop King HP for damps (good for build variety).
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6820
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Posted - 2015.02.21 16:54:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you.
Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown.
Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on)
What do you guys think?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
825
|
Posted - 2015.02.21 18:20:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you.
Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown.
Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on)
What do you guys think?
I think existing GalLogi bonusing and Active Scans are fine, Stealth scouts who damp and sneak are not detectable (lookin at you,sub 18db GalScouts). The "Cocentric Rings" passive currently in effect does not provide the sort of flanking protection you describe, since the distances are easily covered by all scouts' movement speeds while individual suit turning speeds may or may not save the victim.
EWAR right now across frames is more balanced than it has been practically ever, so the root core of that balance should be left alone. Scouts need to behave stealthly and not just "dress" stealthly (add damps)? Working well, as intended.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1533
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Posted - 2015.02.21 19:00:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you.
Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown.
Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on)
What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution.
What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks?
Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion.
How about making scanners more active?
Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans.
Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge.
Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information.
Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in.
That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge.
Pretty sweet paired up together.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
826
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Posted - 2015.02.21 19:31:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Meee One wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you.
Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown.
Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on)
What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together.
Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them?
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1533
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Posted - 2015.02.22 00:15:00 -
[1306] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Meee One wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Ok! Have some tentative numbers for you.
Assumption GA Logi bonus to Active Scanner Precision replaced by Active Scanner Cooldown.
Active Scanner Overhaul 46 dB Scanners ---> 40dB: Commando beats w/1 cmp damp, Heavy w/2 36 dB Scanners ---> 33dB: Assault & Logi beats w/1 cmp damp, Commando w/2 28 dB Scanners ---> 25dB: Scouts beat w/1 cmp damp, Assault w/2, Logi w/3 20 dB Scanners ---> 18dB: MN/AM Scout beat w/2 cmp damp + proto cloak (on)
What do you guys think? Well,that looks good but i have a more proactive solution. What if scanners had capacitors like cloaks? Instead of tapping the shoot button and getting constant images for a snapshot motion. How about making scanners more active? Make the capacitor last the entire scan length,and have it where a scanner user can hold the shoot button to get active scans. Or release the shoot button to stop scanning and let the capacitor recharge. Active scans for active information,and snapshot scans for snapshot information. Cooldowns would have to be decreased to compensate the new danger it leaves the user in. That change,with your change would be pretty cool IMO. And Gal logistics can reduce the time it takes to recharge. Pretty sweet paired up together. Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? No one is implying that.
It just makes sense that as long as you scan you get updated information,and if you stop you don't.
It potentially makes scanners more versatile by allowing multiple snapshots to find enemies,and longer scans to keep track of them.
Instead of firing blanks then waiting for a 30 second cooldown to try again.
As well as extending the possibility of WP through intel kill assists.
Plus you know as well as i do CCP will never listen to logistics regarding equipment,they'll listen to everyone else. So its not like anyone influential will read this anyway.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
826
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Posted - 2015.02.22 01:23:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Just because the thread isn't littered with blue tags doesn't mean no one worthwhile is listening, just that they haven't responded.
Active scans are fine, GalLogi bonuses are fine and Scouts (by and large) are fine. Don't let this thread turn into the Scout wishlist for stats, this whole thing about Active Scans being a problem is RepTool capacitor/cooldown QQ only for scanners. It's bs. The sort of bs that if we start addressing it the limited resources we have will go to addressing it instead of the laundrylist of other things that are actually broken or poorly performing (like base stats).
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
826
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Posted - 2015.02.22 01:29:00 -
[1308] - Quote
And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6827
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Posted - 2015.02.22 02:42:00 -
[1309] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:And I'm kind of amazed you'd entertain the subject at all considering that it stems from the input of a proven purveyor of false or otherwise misleading information. In here.
2. Be respectful toward others at all times. The purpose of the DUST 514 forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of DUST 514. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited. Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
22. Post constructively. Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve DUST 514 provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding DUST 514 and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
826
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Posted - 2015.02.22 04:08:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey.
TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6830
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 04:46:00 -
[1311] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? Sneaking has been greatly diminished.
* Cloak Active dampening bonus was substantially reduced. * Cloak Duration was substantially reduced. * Cloaked units are now TacNet blind. * Cloaked units must now decloak seconds in advance performing any action. * If/when they fit plates, Scouts now suffer steep mobility penalty. * Falloff.
GA Logi scans were balanced against stealth units which no longer exist. If they were balanced before, it is not possible that they are balanced now.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6830
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Posted - 2015.02.22 05:00:00 -
[1312] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request.
I came here to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Ryanjr TUG
KnightKiller's inc.
14
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Posted - 2015.02.22 05:12:00 -
[1313] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request.
Ehglish Please......
"I come in peace I didn't bring artillery, but I'm pleading with you with tears in eyes
if you fuck me I kill you all"
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1534
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 14:00:00 -
[1314] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Just because the thread isn't littered with blue tags doesn't mean no one worthwhile is listening, just that they haven't responded.
Active scans are fine, GalLogi bonuses are fine and Scouts (by and large) are fine. Don't let this thread turn into the Scout wishlist for stats, this whole thing about Active Scans being a problem is RepTool capacitor/cooldown QQ only for scanners. It's bs. The sort of bs that if we start addressing it the limited resources we have will go to addressing it instead of the laundrylist of other things that are actually broken or poorly performing (like base stats). As for scan DB CCP will come to their own conclusion,with or without us.
And i wasn't talking about DB,i was talking about mechanics. The function of the device.
Doing a single split second scan to get 5 seconds of information has always been confusing to me.
Doing a split second scan to get split second information makes more sense. And the ability to stop scanning and refocus your attention sounds good too.
IMHO 30 seconds is a long time to wait if you scanned the wrong area.
I'm not saying active scans are a problem i'm saying the current system is too punishing for an accidental misfire -or- misplaced scan.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1534
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 14:02:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Ryanjr TUG wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. Ehglish Please...... He's saying someone tryed to get eWAR changed and tried to make it look balanced but it actually favored scouts.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1534
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 14:24:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Dude. They're not broken. Why fix them? GA Logi scans are balanced against stealth units which no longer exist. * Cloak Active dampening bonus was substantially reduced. * Cloak Duration was substantially reduced. * Cloaked units are now TacNet blind. * Cloaked units must now decloak seconds in advance performing any action. * If/when they fit plates, Scouts now suffer steep mobility penalty. * Falloff. If GA Logi scans were balanced before, it is not possible that they are balanced now. I may not like scouts,but i can sympathize with your objective.
Back when CCP buffed assaults by 160 eHP and 8 slots with 0 speed reduction.
I made several posts (1 in GD,1 in FB+R) asking what logistics would be getting,seeing as CCP said logistics would be getting a pass at the same time previously.
I protested loudly about logistics being ignored.
I was trolled,insulted,and bombarded with "slayer-logi" and "logis are support they're supposed to suck".
And i,not the players insulting me,got banned for a month. It was before this thread was even made. And logistics still sucks now as it did waaay back then.
So yes,i understand the struggle to keep your class relevant.
That being said,i only run logistics so my opinion on the plight of scouts means nothing. I can only competently suggest changes in my area of knowledge.
So i'll leave the eWAR talk to other folks.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Mister Goo
Random Gunz RISE of LEGION
148
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Posted - 2015.02.22 17:50:00 -
[1317] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored.
Adipem,
I think what el OPERATOR is implying is that you need to take your scout QQ about scanners back to the scout thread. It has nothing to do with improving the logistics class and does not need to be discussed in this thread. (If I'm wrong el OPERATOR I apoligize now)
What I'm saying is stop trying to derail this thread with garbage that does not directly benefit the improvement of the logistics class.
If it is so important to you, then start another thread in F&B and have a proper discussion there.
If you want to help the Logistics class, great stay and participate with ideas that benefit us. If you want to QQ about the UP scout class do it else where.
Closed Beta Vet
Minmatar Logistics I Repair, Revive, and Replenish. Leave the slaying for Assaults and Heavies.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6837
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Posted - 2015.02.22 18:50:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Hi Mr Goo,
I suspect that my goals and your goals are more intimately connected than you realize. Might the Logistics Class have been buffed sooner if its OP elements hadn't played leading roles in both pubstomps and PC? OP Heavy/Logi blobs and OP GalLogi scans are two very goods reasons why not to buff the Logistics class.
Your goal (a better Logi) and my goal (balanced EWAR) are two variables in the same equation. We could be working together on this; is better balance not a mutual goal?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Dementia Maniaclease
Dust 514 Elite Ops
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 22:10:00 -
[1319] - Quote
Cass Caul wrote:
- Caldari Logistics: +10% to nanohive maximum nanites and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and 5% to repair amount per leveland +2 to maximum spawn count per level
- Gallente Logistics: +10% to active scanner visibility duration and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level
- Minmatar Logistics: +10% to repair tool range and 5% to repair amount per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and +2 to maximum spawn count per level
- Amarr Logistics: 10% reduction to drop uplink spawn time and +2 to maximum spawn count per level. and +2% to active scan angle per level. and +5% to supply rate and repair amount per level and 5% to repair amount per level
I agree with this... And more HP, not a lot more just a touch
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention
828
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Posted - 2015.02.23 00:14:00 -
[1320] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Yeah. Because this conversation never happened and after it you didn't continue trying to peddle the same debunked hooey. TruthInTheFeedbackForum@CCP. com/support eagerly awaits your ticket request. I came here to try to solve a problem, not to play games with trolls. I don't know and don't care to know whatever it is you're getting at above. If you've something constructive to contribute, I'm all ears, but consider your hostilities ignored.
Only problem I'm seeing on the topic is your repeated insistence that it exists as a problem.
I'm not trolling, as others have pointed out that thread very clearly stars you putting forth "facts" and "figures" that are corrupt and conclusions just as corrupt.
Now, after the the scout class has undergone several minor adjustments, the GalLogi and scanner and bonus are nicely balanced vs. Scouts. Every match has scouts, those scouts are effective when being scouts and it happens without 90% of frames on the field being scouts to combat scouts. This was not the case previously. But this is the case now. IE, theres nothing broken or otherwise determinant that GalLogis or scanners need fixing.
So take your "balance proposals" elsewhere . This thread had suffered under their distractionary deadweight too much already.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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