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Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3764	Posted - 2014.11.12 08:44:00 - [901] - Quote Also, just to reiterate, make sure you are getting your feedback into the eWar thread as in part how that balance iteration plays out will define some of our course for further polish on the Logi Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 453	Posted - 2014.11.12 18:34:00 - [902] - Quote As an Update, Logi/Support survivability is still extremely bad unless heavily tanked, then its just pretty bad. The iteration 3 sheet proposals really do not do enough to raise logi frames to an even survival performance level, especially under PC conditions and doubly especially with the continued reticence about balancing light frames, which are overwhelmingly prominent in PC. 80 extra hp was barely enough as a start, stripping it to 40 even with the addition of a couple innate reps/second is laughable. The movement speed "buff" I don't see really being much of one, its still short what Assaults are capable of and Assaults only pull it off because they have the extra tank to withstand the combat while they track their targets. And cpu/pg nerfs instated because of the possibility of equipment changes? Thats not logical, if we decide to and how to change equipment THEN we can debate adjusting cpu/pg. At this point in time its premature to include them. If anything based on conditions in 1.9 we should include the addition of sidearms to all the logi frames since every other frame has them AND they need to be "balanced", like scouts. Could someone point me towards this Nanocircutry discussion please? I've not been forum'ing the last couple days and my initial looking around for the thread has not been successful. I'd like to read the proposal in depth. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:23:00 - [903] - Quote Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Orion Sanjeet Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 217	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:32:00 - [904] - Quote Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Ebola makes me feel all warm and squishy inside.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:39:00 - [905] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Lol 'might'. The eWAR thread is one big nerf aimed straight at the logistics class. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1289	Posted - 2014.11.14 16:53:00 - [906] - Quote Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 843	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:28:00 - [907] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. I think we all know it's coming either way. Hey, when it comes to CCP, might as as well expect the worst. And one of the main problems is that the loudest voices talking about changes to the logistics role aren't people like you. Who, you know, actually know what they are talking about. So, I'll blame you, Orion :P Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 17:48:00 - [908] - Quote Orion Sanjeet wrote: Y'all better stop trying to turn this into a "how shall we best nerf the logi" thread, otherwise, it just might happen. Those aren't Logis talking, they're scout loyalist alts more concerned with preserving inherent scout frame dominance than overall game balance. The most unfortunate part about it is that, most likely (hopefully) due to limits in unbiased analytical resouces, Rattati, the CPM and whoever else dev-side is listening to them . Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 471	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:05:00 - [909] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. snip The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? No, you are not alone in seeing this for what it is, the further outpacing of Logistics base stats by the already advantaged other suits. Months of gross imbalance perpetuated even longer by the "fixes", most of which just create a wash of performance, so that while the circumstances change the imbalances remain. And the failure to directly address those imbalances just lead to balancing attempts that will never be truly effective because none actually addresses the core imbalanced elements. So sad to watch, like watching a great major corporation who provided a great service still fail and be forced into bankruptcy because it wouldn't address its executive bloat and instead hid behind accounting tricks until the damage was too far done. The execs party it up and parachute, everybody else is fired and the world loses an excellent service provider. **** is de-press-ing. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 472	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:12:00 - [910] - Quote Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: i have mentioned this idea before but... Is it possible to have a non-combat variety of logistics? Drawbacks: -no weapon -no grenade -no res or proxies -no melee But its draws would be: -sent eHP -scout regen -scout stamina -scout speed -scout stamina regen Purely defense oriented,this suit would offer the greatest defense at the cost of all offense. Logistics bonuses would apply of course,and it would have 25% blast resistance built in. This pure logistics suit would enable the rep tool to be equipped instead of a light weapon,freeing up an equipment slot. Cpu and pg would of course be bountiful,to allow any fitting the user desires. I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 844	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:16:00 - [911] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4542	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:31:00 - [912] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Also in Zaria's camp. Makes no sense in an FPS. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 18:40:00 - [913] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Meee One wrote: Meee One wrote: ...... I still like this idea. I still hate this idea. Sorry dude. ^Seconded. Though not sorry about it. Also in Zaria's camp. Makes no sense in an FPS. It makes sense, my issue is it's creating even more of a "soft target" out of the class. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:00:00 - [914] - Quote So, after reading over the thread, and going over the current 3rd iteration proposals, as well as brushing up on Nanohive Alchemy (it's SCIENCE!), and forming a few ideas of my own, I decided to collate, distill, and then post my thoughts. This will probably be long, and might end up being a multi-part post. You have been warned- but please do bear with me. So, my initial impressions of the 3rd iteration proposals: for the most part, I think there's a lot of solid suggestions and hard work that went into it, and it looks really good. There are some parts I don't care for, and I'll get to that, but a few things immediately jumped out at me: Nanocircuitry skill bonus "bugfix"? Why should we remove the bonus, when it's actually a good model of what all of the equipment skills should do- not that they should all provide a fitting reduction, but that all of the equipment skills should also have a skill bonus attached to them. IMO, the so-called bugfix that should be applied is to simply alter the skill description string so that it lists the -5% CPU requirement per level bonus. Demolitions skill bonus. I mostly like this idea, except that I fear that RE's will become even more brokenly powerful than they are right now. It's still very common for them to be spammed at stuff, and I think that this would make the problem even worse. My personal solution would be to apply a nerf to RE damage to accompany the skill bonus addition- the particular value should be sufficient to put RE's at a 5% net damage increase at L5 Demolitions, with L4 Demo being the same damage as presently. Logistics Role Bonus Buff. This seems nice, but I feel that the bonus as-constructed ends up like the current cloak fitting bonus on scout suits- the net result is that at the low-investment end it's still incredibly difficult to fit the relevant, fitting-bonused mods and build a good fit. Even with L3 scout skill, I find it incredibly difficult to build a solid Amarr scout fit using the STD-level suit and a basic clack- I can only wonder at how much more difficult it would be for a newbro with racial scout L1. The logi bonus change ends up with the same problem, IMO. It's not as bad with logi suits due to the difference in equipment fittings, slot layouts, and CPU/PG budgets on logi suits, but I'd wager it's still a problem. As an example, I currently have Dropsuit Core Upgrades L5, Dropsuit Engineering L4, and Amarr Logi L5. Back when I had Engineering L3 and AmLogi L4, to build a fit that was survivable while prioritizing equipment required that I fit either a CR or ACR as my light weapon. I was able to shuffle a few mods around- mostly by downgrading my repper mod and upgrading to Logi 5 and Engineering 4, and fit my preferred ARR. I would recommend as a fix, to apply a flat Role Bonus of -20% CPU/PG fitting requirement of equipment, and then add a -6% CPU/PG requirement per level for equipment. At level 1 racial logi, this equates to a -26% CPU/PG requirement on equipment mods, which is quite slick, IMO. If that proves to much, then I would say scale back to perhaps -15% role bonus, and -7%/level bonus. Logi Bonus works on Clacks. Simply put, with the current level of bonus, I don't see this as even slightly a problem. Even with the bonus doubled, I really don't see it as an issue. Clacks are equipment, and Logis getting reduced Clack fittings doesn't seem like an issue- clacks suck CPU/PG like nothing else in the game, and require a Logi to sacrifice a great deal to be effective with them. Moreover, clacks no longer provide nearly as much active damping as they did on release- STD clacks provide no damping bonus whatsoever, so even if a logi is "invisible", which in practice is highly dependent on the lighting conditions and mood of a map, then they still show up on TACNET. In short, I don't really see a problem with Logis being able to get a fitting discount on Clacks. It's an incredibly niche, and honestly kind of dumb and/or "lulzy" fit, and because of that I see no reason to remove it. It just seems like an artificial limitation on the desired sandbox of DUST. That being said, if someone could provide substantial, well-reasoned, and hard evidence that clacky logis would become the Next Big Thing and FOTM in/of DUST, then I could probably be swayed into changing my opinion. Now, on to some of the Stat Changes: First off, I generally like the slight buff to basic armor/shield values- I haven't checked the others, but the proposed change for the Amarr Logi generally looks like the intent is to nestle Logi base health values almost perfectly in the middle of scouts and assaults. This seems like an excellent start. However, I don't see anything about slot layout parity... which is already the case for the PRO GalLogi suit (3/5 high low), and all of the MinLogi line. At the very least, I'd like the slot layout of my Amarr Logi to be 1/3 STD, and 2/4 ADV. At PRO AmLogi, I think I would honestly be okay with 3/4 or 2/5- but the STD/ADV AmLogi slot layouts are a relic of a bygone age, and really need to be changed. I'm also fairly confident that the Caldari and Gallente logis need some slot layout work at STD/ADV- especially the poor CalLogi, with only 2 equips and no sidearm to compensate at STD (side note: please give the AmLogi a 3rd equip at STD). The only other standout issue I see is that sprint speed is still slower than the assault- IMO sprint speed should be equal between assaults and logis, with logis having less stamina. This means that yes, a logi will end up falling behind a bunch of assaults... but only after running for 20+ seconds. Increased sprint speed would also improve, IMO, the ability of logis to perform triage/medic duties when carrying a needle. Pretty much ran out of space on this post, so yes, this is going to be a multi-part deal. Grab some popcorn, and something to drink. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 474	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:10:00 - [915] - Quote busts out popcorn, minds his bbq from afar Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 20:44:00 - [916] - Quote Part the second! Quick Thoughts on Needles. Maybe a little change to the low-end needles? Say, 40% armor-on-revive for the MLT/STD needles, and 60% for the ADV? This incidentally builds a nice progression between the MLT/STD, ADV, PRO, and LP specialist needles- each time you go up in grade, you get an additional 20%. Seems much cleaner, than the current 30%/50%/80% for STD/ADV/PRO, with LP specialist at 100%. More Thoughts on Logi Mobility. When running my AmLogi suit, which is generally a case of "run Logi until scouts make me really mad or I just feel ultra-fat or scroog-ish", I find that I generally wish I could sprint faster more than walk faster. Certainly, more health would be nice, but IMO more base speed is really where it's at. Maybe it's because I just run armor tanks more, so Kincats tend to be a much bigger tradeoff than for a shield suit, or maybe it's just that it's easier to get useful tank than it is to get useful speed. But overall, I'd argue for a sprint speed buff over a movement speed buff. A Brief Detour on MedFrame EWAR. I perused the opening and first page or two of the EWAR thread, and... honestly, I'm not impressed. Granted, I've got a few ideas that would likely provoke reactions ranging from "that's pretty drastic" to "omahgerrd scout hater tryin to nurf scouts!!1!", but such is the price of genius (I jest, of course... about the genius part). Overall, I think the only change that seemed particularly interesting, and potentially meta-shaking, is the Logi/Assault EWAR dynamic; that being that a Logi has better scan precision, but Assaults have lower scan profile. The suggested values would incidentally always allow a Logi to see an Assault and vice versa, but the caveat is that Heavies would have more difficulty seeing assaults... though it's not like heavy EWAR is useful anyways, so that's cool too. Thoughts on Skill Buff Proposals. I quite frankly automatically dislike Method 1. It feels overly contrived and would could potentially eclipse an ADS as "most SP-intensive role in the game". It also seems like it would require a client-side patch. Such an update isn't out of the question (ref Uprising 1.9), but I feel that changes to the Logi Racial skill bonuses are best left as things which can be hotfixed server side. As far as Methods 2/2b and 4... I'm not too crazy about Methods 2 or 4, since I actually refuse to skill into rep tools at present because of reasons, and I run Amarr Logi Method 2b though... Get a big bonus to the racial equipment, and then a lesser bonus to the other 3 "BIG FOUR" equips? I really like this idea. I will, of course, fully admit that part of the reason I like this idea is that it gives the Amarr Logi an Active Scanner precision bonus, which I like, given that scouts are my mortal enemy as a Logi. Going over Method 3/3b, it looks to be mostly in the same position as Method 2 and 4- I'd feel like I'm wasting half the skill bonus because I find repping to be fairly boring and I- for the present at least- refuse to skill into rep tools. Equipment Changes. First off, let me get the dunce cap for myself, as I only just now noticed the annotation about adjusting RE damage to compensate for the Demolitions skill bonus change. I have already given my opinion on Logi/Clack relationships, so I won't repeat myself here; Proxy changes look good; the only thing I can think of is that might be interesting to swap Proxy/RE positions on the skill tree, with Proxy's being unlocked at L1/L3/L5, and RE's at L2/L4/L5. Just going over RE's a third time, the trigger delay suggestions look good. Repair tool changes look like they'd be pretty good, but I don't use Reppers, so I don't consider myself qualified to comment in detail on the matter. While within the triage gear range, the recommended Needle changes look fantastic, barring the technical difficulties that have come to light, IIRC. Generally liking the nanohive proposal, though I have some more in-depth comments I'd like to make on that subject. Tabling of equipment ISK cost is potentially a poor choice, given that Rattati did normalize variant costs for most weapons- see the Market for how the RR and ARR now have the same ISK pricing for a given tier (I love that change so much). Link changes are where I'm a little bit iffy, but like nanos, I'd like to make a more in-depth commentary on them. I do want to take a quick moment and touch on the internal balance of the Scanner variants. First off, why is there no Flux scanner at ADV? Seriously, we have a STD-level model, and we have a PRO version, but no ADV? Seems pretty wonky to me. Next, the ADV-level Stable scanner needs more of a drawback; currently it just ends with ISK cost being the only drawback compared to even the ADV-level basic scanner. Also, why are all of the theoretically very flexible scanners chained to the proto tiers? Why does the Proxy scanner have such a ** scan angle, and the Proto Flux scanner have an amazeballs scan angle? Why does the Focused scanner have twice the PG usage, and ** cooldown/recharge? I'll all for the Focused having limitations, but it just seems overly constrained into uselessness when it comes down to it. As for how I'd fix that... well, that'll have to wait for Part the Third, because of character limits. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 21:21:00 - [917] - Quote This has gotten to be much longer than I thought it would be... hopefully it will be helpful feedback at least. On to Part the Third! Fixing Active Scanners, You Say? Yes, I did indeed say /fails at puns. So, how to fix active scanners: 1. Flux variant added at ADV, since we already have STD/PRO versions 2. Stable variant added at STD/PRO; Stable variants have the same paint time (5 secs) as regular scanners, but a longer cooldown (20 seconds instead of 15). This helps give a tradeoff to using a Stable scanner, in addition to the ISK cost. Perhaps a slight nerf to Stable-variant precision would also be appropriate, as well. 3. Proximity variant added at ADV; swap Proxy/Proto Flux scan angles. This will simultaneously tone down the Proto Flux and make Proxy Scanners a desirable gizmo. For the curious, this means that the Proto Flux scanner will have a 45 degree scan angle, while Proxy Scanners will have a 90 degree scan angle; given the much shorter range of Proxy scanners, and the MUCH longer range of Flux scanners, I think this would be entirely appropriate. 4. Slightly reduce Focused scanner cooldown. IIRC, it's currently an 5 second paint time with 40 second cooldown. I would recommend bringing it down to 35 seconds, as a trial run. Eventually it may need to go down further, but I would recommend no less than 25 seconds cooldown for the Focused scanner. Nanohive Commentary (Finally). So, nanos. Well, to start, as I mentioned, I like the direction that we're going with them- reduce the cluster capacity of each individual hive, but then increase the number of hives carried to match the total cluster count that we currently have. This being said, I think that we need to retool hives a bit. First off, let's just completely get rid of Flux hives. An increased area of resupply is of zero utility in almost any situation imaginable. About the only time I can think that a Flux hive would be useful, would be if it repped armor. Which would make it either a Flux (R) or Triage hive, depending on the exact particulars. The ADV-level X-3 Quantum nanohive is somewhat similar; the only advantage it offers is an increased resupply rate. It's certainly convenient, but I can't think of any reason to carry X-3 Quantum hives over K-2 hives, considering that X-3s cost more ISK and CPU to fit. My recommendation would be to convert the X-3 Quantum hives into an ADV-level dedicated Triage hive, to provide a pure triage hive at a lower-level. There's also potential in introducing a STD-level Triage hive to complement such a proposed X-3 Triage and the traditional Wyki Triage hives. Now we get to the part that will probably be considered, if not outright controversial, then at least very radical. It's quite simple. We retool the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) nanohives to be more like the Compact nanohive, but you simply carry more of them at the high-end. IMO, the K17/D (R) and Allotek (R) hives are the logical extension of the Compact nanohive, merely as a larger, higher-capacity, lower-rate solution. IMO, this is... subpar. Primarily because there seems to be a disconnect between the STD-level Compact and the higher-end rep+resupply hives. A desire for both reps and ammo would best be fulfilled by simply providing a higher-tier Compact hive variant wherein you carry more hives. Here's the proposed statblock, along with the recommended X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage change: STD-level Compact Nanohives: change armor rep rate from 50 HP/s to 40 HP/s. This will become obvious momentarily. K17/D (R) to K17/D Compact: from 2 max deployed, 2 carried, to 2 deployed, 3 carried; 48 clusters->25 clusters, resupply rate 7.5%->25%, armor repair rate 20 HP/s->40 HP/s, effective range from 6 meters->2 meters. Fitting requirements would change from 63 CPU/12 PG to 25 CPU/5 PG- there is a slight (5 CPU/1 PG) discount for the equivalent of carrying three compact hives as a single K17/D Compact module over carrying them separately. Allotek (R) to Allotek Compact: more or less, the only difference between the K17/D Compact and Allotek Compact would be as follows: 2 max active, 4 carried, 35 CPU/7 PG. While the discount isn't quite as good by percentage, it's still the case that you can fit an Allotek Compact for less CPU/PG- and especially less slots- than the equivalent number of traditional compact nanos. X-3 Quantum to X-3 Triage: more or less, the changes are quite simple: remove resupply rate, add a 55 HP/s rep rate, and then change the name from "Quantum" to "Triage". Incidentally, this then creates a stepped variance between Compact and Triage Hives. Compact reps at 40 HP/s, and resupplies ammo, and has really low fitting requirements, but has a tiny AoE. ADV Triage has a large AoE, 15 more reps per second for 55 HP/s, but has higher fitting reqs and can't resupply ammo. PRO Triage has the same drawbacks, with the added advantage of 70 HP/s- nearly double that of Compact rep rate. With this being said, I by no means consider this a definitive concept- there are probably ways to integrate ADV-level Triage hives and ADV/PRO level Compact hives (which would best be implemented as "not better hives, but more carried", IMO) with the existing dual-purpose and resupply hives. However, there is no one in the world who could convince me that the PRO Flux hives have any use or even a reason to exist, and I highly doubt that there exists a person who can convince me of the utility of the ADV-level Quantum hives. Since there's only about 500 characters left, I must now confine my drop uplink analysis to a fourth post. This is turning into the forum equivalent of a full-length movie, and I still have no idea where it will end. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 109	Posted - 2014.11.14 21:55:00 - [918] - Quote So, now we're at part four, and hopefully this will be the last part. For those who may be wondering, any edits to the above were minor syntax corrections. Drop Uplink Analysis. So, Links. I think the biggest thing that jumps out at me is this: Why do we need sixty spawns worth of links? I mean, that's nearly four times as many players are on a team, and more than a third the total clone count of a Dom or Skimish match. It just seems ridiculously overkill. I mean, currently due to how link mechanics are structured, it sort of makes sense... but that has more to do with the fact that we're not carrying very many links in total. The expectation almost seems like a link is supposed to be destroyed or made irrelevant by changing battle conditions than to be completely expended. There's also the issue of how this change interacts with the Amarr Logi bonus. Currently, the referenced proto links have 20 spawns per link, with 3 carried. With the AmLogi bonus, this becomes 30 spawns per link, with 3 carried, for a total of 90 spawns. Using the proposed numbers of 5 spawns/link, 12 links carried... I arrive at a whopping one hundred eighty potential spawns. 180! That's more than ten times as many players per team, and is 20% more than the total clone count per team of any game mode! Currently, with maxed out AmLogi and Link skills, the AmLogi provides a 50% increase in potential spawns with basic, Flux, and Stable-variant proto links. Under the proposal as-stated, however, this goes to an insane 300% increase. Which leads to a very important question: Is the Amarr Logi bonus broken, in reference to the proposal, or was it merely the victim of unintended consequence. I submit that it is the former- I only thought to examine this when I was thinking about how Quantum-variant links seem rather useless to me, as an Amarr Logi. Let me explain: the Amarr Logi bonus includes a +2 spawn count per level value. At max skills, this is +10 spawn count for every link deployed. Obviously, this seems pretty cool. In practice, however, it's quite lackluster. Quantum-variant links, which generally provide a +33% to +50% spawn count bonus, IIRC, either make this bonus irrelevant and/or useless, or the inverse occurs- an Amarr Logi player has no reason to equip Quantum links, as the likelihood that they will expend as many as 40 spawns (proto Quantum links, IIRC, are 30 spawns/link) is incredibly low. Not only is that nearly 33% of the teams total clone reserve in Dom/Skirmish modes, thus meaning it's actually paradoxically bad for an AmLogi to provide forty spawns from a single link and have every single one used up, but it's also far more likely that the link will be found and then popped, or rendered irrelevant to battle conditions depending on where the fighting is heaviest at a particular moment. At which point I surmised that Quantum links could very likely be removed from the game with zero ill effect. At the same time, I also noticed that: 1. There is no Stable Link variant at ADV, but there is at STD and PRO. More or less, the "Flux Scanner" problem. 2. Flux links quickly obsolete basic links; the only downside is ISK cost, but the benefit is a faster spawn time- significantly so if the deployer uses an AmLogi suit. Flux links have the same spawn count and fitting requirements as basic links, making the problem that much worse. 3. Gauged links are very nice, but suffer from being restricted to proto-level, and IMO should really be limited to "you get to carry more, but you can only deploy the same amount". Gauged nanohives have the same problem as well. They also suffer from consisting of "+1 carried, +1 active", which seems odd that there is a specific variant for, given that STD links are "1 active, 2 carried", and ADV links are currently "2 active, 2 carried"; I'll note a solution momentarily. As far as solutions, I offer the following, in no particular order: ---Reduce the number of links carried. My gut says to cut it by half, to 6 max carried, as it just feels weird that I'd be able to carry more individual links than nanos. However, I think it would be more reasonable to cut it down to 8 carried instead of 12. ---Give flux links an actual drawback. My personal opinion is that flux links should have a reduced spawn count; under the proposal I would recommend instead that flux links have fewer total carried; if basic links are cut down to 8 carried, then flux should be 4 or 5 carried, IMO. If basic link carry capacity is retained as-is, then I would recommend 6 flux uplinks carried, with 5 spawns per link. ---With your proposal, I would recommend that Quantum links consist of fewer carried, but with more spawns; as an example, proto Quantum links would have 10 spawns per link; under the current proposal I would recommend 6 links carried- this then creates a dynamic of "more spawns, but less links", making Quantum links a sort of 'low-maintenance' variant. If my suggestion of reducing the carried link value to 8 were to be implemented, then I would recommend 4-5 links carried for Quantum links. ---Introduce a Stable link variant at ADV level, as it doesn't make any sense as to why there are STD and PRO stable links, but not ADV Stable links. ---Remove Gauged equipment variants and adjust other variants accordingly. Under the current system, this would look like: 2 active/3 carried for ADV level Links/Nanos, and 3 active/4 carried for PRO level Links/Nanos. Under the proposal- which I like much better, BTW- I do not see any reason that we couldn't just roll Gauged variants into the basic model. As far as a potential adjustment to equipment fitting costs to make them more difficult to mount to non-Logi suits, I'll sit out on that for the moment; for one, it's currently tabled, and for two, I'd need to organize my thoughts on it. And I am (finally) finished. I hope this is very helpful to Cross, and other posters. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 478	Posted - 2014.11.14 22:34:00 - [919] - Quote still munching popcorn sees that theres 4 full pages to digest, decides to wait to finish grilling first then will sit and read Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 216	Posted - 2014.11.15 04:36:00 - [920] - Quote Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). * Logis almost always come in 1st place at the end of the match. I don't mind. * Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18m (max range 80m). * Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan precision will be buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB).

Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 294	Posted - 2014.11.15 05:00:00 - [921] - Quote Little something I dropped from another topic but is relevant : Doshneil Antaro wrote: I've been holding out for some time about my last idea as it would impact myself as a logi, and how the rep tool and the whole class performs. Rework the rep tool so that it is a prior to combat tool. Instead of constantly repping it should over charge a suit for the same current health tics up to 5 tics over 5 seconds. This extra health would remain in effect up to a minute but the over charged suit could not be recharged for 1 min 30 sec. This fix although dramic and really push the coders at CCP, would benefit all classes especially the assault. Over charge the heavy, Then assault , and then "oh well but the scouts already ran off". It would also free up a logis hands to do other things like more revives, quicker placement of hives and uplinks, and ( god forbid ) put some rounds down range. source: Sentinels are a problem! feedback pg 2. ( Sorry on my ps3 and cant remember how to link it ) . This idea is not something I believe CCP would release this late but they should look into something like this if Legion takes flight. BTW I'm a pre Chrome logi medic, I repped in the original corp battles even though there was no war points for it and still topped the charts. Edit: I support the bandwith per equipment per suit as I asked for years ago that CCP is finally considering. I'm also against REs being replenished with hives/supply depots. It is the only equipment that murders but yet does not have the same drawback as other placed equipment. All equipment needs to be well thought out and not easily replenished. Sage /thread
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:05:00 - [922] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: snipped stuff about repair tool changes and problems with sentinels Repair tool idea is interesting, but as I am refusing to touch reppers with an eleven foot pole I consider myself unqualified to comment on that aspect. The sentinel part though? It's very simple: Sentinels should not be in CQC, and should instead be retooled as a long-range fire support platform. Seriously, a sentinel user is then faced with their disadvantages, like incredibly low mobility when on foot. Doshneil Antaro wrote: Edit: I support the bandwith per equipment per suit as I asked for years ago that CCP is finally considering. I'm also against REs being replenished with hives/supply depots. It is the only equipment that murders but yet does not have the same drawback as other placed equipment. All equipment needs to be well thought out and not easily replenished. I agree on the bandwidth idea, but I disagree on the equipment replenishment. Particularly considering the proposal to reduce the capacities of a single hive or link, and increase the number carried- thus making it more difficult to spam them (since they will be expended at significantly higher rates)- means that a smoother equipment replenishment system is required. I would recommend that nanohives and droplinks be replenished by supply depots, but not deployed nanos- the latter doesn't make much sense after all. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Auris Lionesse Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 1192	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:16:00 - [923] - Quote formerly gal assault and light gal logi cal and min logi need a shield repair tool. gal and amarr need an armor repair tool. both would be primary equipment and be altered by the logis primary bonuses. where secondary bonuses would apply to secondary equipment such as nanohives, uplinks, scanners, and remotes. this is how eve operates and therefore is how dust should operate. every racial logi should get a bonus to their races preferred repair tool. having an armor tool on a minmatar suit is absolute nonsense. Don't vote for iron wolf saber. Vote for someone who will help the community i.e. anyone else.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2014.11.15 06:51:00 - [924] - Quote While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot. If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun. Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun. TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea. Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4553	Posted - 2014.11.15 13:06:00 - [925] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * Scouts have been nerfed a bunch of times in the past few months. * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). * The Logis I run with place 1st nearly every match; they are fantastic (and viable). Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 222	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:16:00 - [926] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). By "Hunt" and "Hide" I intended to describe general interplay Precision vs Profile, rather than describe a particular function or activity. We know that Rattati intends to buff MedFrame EWAR. Looking at the APEX fittings, it appears that Logis will be the more precision-oriented of the two Meds. A buff to Logi Precision necessitates a buff to Assault Profile (the Apex GA Assault makes no sense otherwise). I'm speculating as to the specific numbers themselves. For funsies :-) My money's on Assault base profile (45 dB) and Logi base precision (42 dB). These values returns interplay not unlike the hunter/hunted progressions of Scouts (1/2/3 precision beats 0/1/2 damps). Though my expectations may be overly simplified. Rattati might divide the EWAR shakeup along racial lines, which could get really interesting. Some Logis get a buff to Precision. Other Logis don't. Craziness!
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5402	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:31:00 - [927] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. Are you sure you don't have that last part reversed? Unless you mean we are finders/spotters (which is also off, that should be the scouts role but I guess they would be the mobile version) and assaults become more stealthy killers (the other current/broken scout role). By "Hunt" and "Hide" I intended to describe general interplay Precision vs Profile, rather than describe a particular function or activity. We know that Rattati intends to buff MedFrame EWAR. Looking at the APEX fittings, it appears that Logis will be the more precision-oriented of the two Meds. A buff to Logi Precision necessitates a buff to Assault Profile (the Apex GA Assault makes no sense otherwise). I'm speculating as to the specific numbers themselves. For funsies :-) My money's on Assault base profile (45 dB) and Logi base precision (42 dB). These values returns interplay not unlike the hunter/hunted progressions of Scouts (1/2/3 precision beats 0/1/2 damps). Though my expectations may be overly simplified. Rattati might divide the EWAR shakeup along racial lines, which could get really interesting. Some Logis get a buff to Precision. Other Logis don't. Craziness! Logis are already heard towards better Precision so this makes senseGÇª just bumping more in that direction would add a lot to balance for EWAR, and boost the Logi team support role in a positive direction. Dividing Precision and Dampening along Factional linesGÇª that would be interesting. MOAR Ladders
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:33:00 - [928] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Meee One wrote: Just want to point something out... Scouts have been running at 8m/s permascanning in a 360 degree radius for months,no nerf. Logistics gets a team scanner to help their team,plans on nerfing 2 days after implemented. Logistics is even specifically mentioned in the eWAR post. Funny how a "fully skilled scout" scanning 100% of the time passively isn't OP enough to warrant a nerf. But a "fully skilled logistics" scanning once every 15-30 seconds is. Even a 50% range nerf,which will completely destroy active scanners. And you notice the whole premise behind the eWAR thread is yet another buff to assaults. 500 base eHP,high speed,8-9 slots apparently wasn't enough. Plates and extenders will add to your signature,guess what logistics needs to compensate its low eHP? It isn't dampeners,because logistics isn't innately fast enough to make them viable. Prepare for heavies to passively scan you down. Assaults have enough base eHP that extra is an option. The eWAR thread is what you get when you ignore a whole mediums frame class in favor of another. Well, logistics aren't exactly being ignored,they are being nerfed,in favor of assaults,again. What's next? Assaults getting 2 equipment slots? A few things: * Scouts have been nerfed a bunch of times in the past few months. * A Scout's passive scans are now interrupted when his cloak is active. * Overheard two Top 100 Assaults asking for exactly that (2 EQ). So,i can use the white logi with better survival,or the yellow logi with crap survival,this would in no way be infringement. * The Logis I run with place 1st nearly every match; they are fantastic (and viable). Will bet Cross 1M Isk that Logi scan range will be buffed to 18-20m (max range 80-90m) and scan precision buffed to 42 dB (max precision 20dB). My money's on you guys becoming better Hunters while Assaults become better Hiders. Would be really neat to see Logi passives forcing Scouts to run damps. So,logistics,the non killing suit (defensive),will be able to hunt other suits down(offensive),instead of hiding like a non killer should.(defensive ) And assaults,a killing suit(offensive),won't be able to actively hunt targets(offensive),but instead will be able to hide from them?(defensive) Doesn't that seem slightly backwards? Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:39:00 - [929] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: While I am a big fan of bring DUST and EVE closer in conceptual design... it's a stupid idea for an infantry unit to have no ability to shoot stuff in the face. Almost every player will, at some point, have to run around on foot. If such a player chooses a logi suit, I'm sure they would appreciate being able to shoot something in the face. I mean, look at Team Fortress 2 (which I haven't actually played), where the medic has some pretty amazeballs ability (so I've heard, at least), and still has a freakin' gun. Even Blizzard's new FPS, with it's super-supporty-medic-class, still gives said class a freakin' gun. TL;DR: don't replace the Logi's gun with a repair tool. It's stupid and a fail idea. Addendum: racial repair tools is an admittedly cool idea. Still, no likes for you. I am so glad no one can read. The weaponless logistics would be a variation not a replacement. Just like the equipment they hold,logistics would have a non-combat variety. Where the current gun toting logistics suffers base stat wise. This new completely separate variety would sacrifice offensive power for defensive. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1298	Posted - 2014.11.15 16:47:00 - [930] - Quote And as for hybrid hives being repurposed. I'd prefer copy and paste current compact stats on amount refilled and cluster amount. Still keeping 1 deployed per level. STD- 1 carried ADV- 2 carried Pro- 3 carried The smaller bubble would make them more useful to players that try to hide. Eg.Snipers,scouts,etc Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.



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