Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr ,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr ,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr ,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

I think the real problem comes down to being able to stack armor plates in the low slots while being unscannable, and id REALLY LOVE if there was a way to increase the speed penalty only for scouts/lights, making it very unnapatizing to use plates, and allowing scouts more freedom in their fittings in a competitive setting. Remember, in a PC match or a pub stomp or a competitive FW match, the best scans are going to be the ONLY scans, and there will be a few dedicated people whose only purpose is to use them at all times, making it necessary to dodge those scans.

By requiring two damps to do so, the min/cal scout will be, pardon my french, screwed in every competitive setting due to their lack of an ability to use any other scoutly modules such as range amps or kin cats. Please reconsider this. If we continue to pursue the idea of a scout being a scout only if they have maxed out skills, can fit a proto cloak (minmitar can't btw if they run PG intensive modules), and completely ignore every EWAR and biotic module or tank module for dampeners.

Not entirely true.

Min Scout's MAIN role in PC is hacking.

We can still do that. Anyone who tries to range amp their min scout is loco. We don't have the precision or the range to do so properly.

We lose a bit of slaying ability, but not much. We only lose that Kincat slot to be INVISIBLE.

I would much rather be sprinting at 8.31 and be invisible than to be scanned and sprinting at 9.35.

Damp > Speed

If you don't want to hack, stack shields and damps. You can still slay really well with your shields and weapons.

Also: We are getting a PG buff. Remember that. We can totally run what we need to now.

Hmm.. Looking at how the slot layouts and bonuses work, I like the way this is headed. If you want max precision, you go Amarr, if you want decent precision with excellent range, you go Cal.

I also noticed that you made the PRO cloak a 15% reduction instead of 10%

Using that number.....

My min Scout with 2x Damps and PRO cloak has a profile of 15.71. This rounds up to 16 (Stupid rounding)

I can dodge 1x Amarr Scans, and 2x Cal Scans (3x rounds up to 16, and tie goes to scanner)

3x Damps and PRO cloak and I have a profile of 13.47. Rounds up to 14.

I can dodge everything.

Normally, I would be saying "This doesn't change anything" but since Min Scout gets codebreakers to high, I can still do my job. I can Speed hack AND be invisible, meaning that I can get onto the objective undetected and hack.

What fit's will I run?

2x Damp Min Scout:

1x Shield
2x Codebreaker

1x Speed
2x Damp

Hacks in 3.81s, dodges most scans while cloaked.

The 3x Damp will be the same, except just with 3x damps and 3x codebreakers.

---

I suspect that Cal Scouts will still be slightly more popular, but Amarr scouts will have a role as point defense specialists. They can Tank both precision and armor and be tough to take down.

Granted, we can walk under his scans, but he still has a huge HP advantage.

Caldari will be more popular due to those 87-120m scans. This guy will LOCK DOWN the city for everyone not running damps.

So scouts damp and everyone else has to duke it out with the wall hack on.

No reason to run active scanners anymore. This guy does it better. Scanners will solely be used for the focused to scan scouts.

eWAR is slightly better for scouts, but still f'd up overall.

It looks like the amarr scout has too large of a bonus. Unless I am reading this wrong a gal scout will have to use three complex profile dampeners to avoid an amarr scout with just two precision enhancers.

It looks like the amarr scout has too large of a bonus. Unless I am reading this wrong a gal scout will have to use three complex profile dampeners to avoid an amarr scout with just two precision enhancers.

@ Appia, Haerr, Mathfolks
On the road til Sunday. Would you guys mind double checking Rattati's numbers?

@ Rattati
On Cal, 20% per level seems a bit much. A future efficacy bonus value req'd to match these results would be quite high. Also, please ignore Gav :-)

Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr ,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

It looks like the amarr scout has too large of a bonus. Unless I am reading this wrong a gal scout will have to use three complex profile dampeners to avoid an amarr scout with just two precision enhancers.

@ Appia

not_helping.jpg

If these numbers won't work, what numbers would? Why?

@ Appia

not_helping.jpg

If these numbers won't work, what numbers would? Why?

So you're saying that all scouts should require 2x complex damps to dodge the best scans but only if they use a proto cloak?

No offense intended but that is a poor idea, as it takes away from modules like kin cats or range amps or cardiac regulators that some scouts (myself included) rely upon.

I think the real problem comes down to being able to stack armor plates in the low slots while being unscannable, and id REALLY LOVE if there was a way to increase the speed penalty only for scouts/lights, making it very unnapatizing to use plates, and allowing scouts more freedom in their fittings in a competitive setting. Remember, in a PC match or a pub stomp or a competitive FW match, the best scans are going to be the ONLY scans, and there will be a few dedicated people whose only purpose is to use them at all times, making it necessary to dodge those scans.

By requiring two damps to do so, the min/cal scout will be, pardon my french, screwed in every competitive setting due to their lack of an ability to use any other scoutly modules such as range amps or kin cats. Please reconsider this. If we continue to pursue the idea of a scout being a scout only if they have maxed out skills, can fit a proto cloak (minmitar can't btw if they run PG intensive modules), and completely ignore every EWAR and biotic module or tank module for dampeners.

The real problem is EWAR + Brick tanking. EWAR is what the scout should be best at, so instead of screwing them through EWAR, why don't we nerf the scouts ability to plate stack/shield stack where they should be using range amps or kin cats or cardiac regulators by increasing the speed penalties and delay penalties by two (2) for light frames?

If this happened, suits would look more like these--

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5408
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5409 ---Assumes PG reduction for KinCats
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5410
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5411

If you look at these, none of them have the "pigeonholing" effect that is happening right now, but none of them are "OP" IMHO as they are good at EWAR and being stealthy while knowing where the more assault based frames (medium/heavy) are at all times so they can avoid them or pick them off if they happen to leave the pack.

I'd also really appreciate if you at least told me what you thought on my ideas even if it is harsh and you tell me "No, that would make scouts overpowered."

Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr ,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

yeah, checking the Table again after initial post: Caldari get to keep their precision bonus and have range
Gallente gets a nerf to dampening.

This is just stupid.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i0LbL4DJt6LGioHeUVfuCyJlDK1CHf_n9plFNUtrHOs/edit#gid=0

yeah, checking the Table again after initial post: Caldari get to keep their precision bonus and have range
Gallente gets a nerf to dampening.

This is just stupid.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i0LbL4DJt6LGioHeUVfuCyJlDK1CHf_n9plFNUtrHOs/edit#gid=0

I'll be playing the beta on PS3, and apparently we are supposed to receive 3 beta download codes. I'll be glad to give one to you.

It seems like CCP is plain old painted into a development corner.

CCP rastatat- there might not be a way to balance everything without more of an overhaul of what you guys put out. There is no way to broaden solutions outside of what's already here?

@ Appia, Haerr, Mathfolks
On the road til Sunday. Would you guys mind double checking Rattati's numbers?

@ Rattati
On Cal, 20% per level seems a bit much. A future efficacy bonus value req'd to match these results would be quite high. Also, please ignore Gav :-)