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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr Blink

,

can you assist me in two ways

double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes Bear

and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak.

The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct.

Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok".

EWAR Calculations

So you're saying that all scouts should require 2x complex damps to dodge the best scans but only if they use a proto cloak?

No offense intended but that is a poor idea, as it takes away from modules like kin cats or range amps or cardiac regulators that some scouts (myself included) rely upon.

I think the real problem comes down to being able to stack armor plates in the low slots while being unscannable, and id REALLY LOVE if there was a way to increase the speed penalty only for scouts/lights, making it very unnapatizing to use plates, and allowing scouts more freedom in their fittings in a competitive setting. Remember, in a PC match or a pub stomp or a competitive FW match, the best scans are going to be the ONLY scans, and there will be a few dedicated people whose only purpose is to use them at all times, making it necessary to dodge those scans.

By requiring two damps to do so, the min/cal scout will be, pardon my french, screwed in every competitive setting due to their lack of an ability to use any other scoutly modules such as range amps or kin cats. Please reconsider this. If we continue to pursue the idea of a scout being a scout only if they have maxed out skills, can fit a proto cloak (minmitar can't btw if they run PG intensive modules), and completely ignore every EWAR and biotic module or tank module for dampeners.

The real problem is EWAR + Brick tanking. EWAR is what the scout should be best at, so instead of screwing them through EWAR, why don't we nerf the scouts ability to plate stack/shield stack where they should be using range amps or kin cats or cardiac regulators by increasing the speed penalties and delay penalties by two (2) for light frames?

If this happened, suits would look more like these--

http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5408
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5409 ---Assumes PG reduction for KinCats
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5410
http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5411

If you look at these, none of them have the "pigeonholing" effect that is happening right now, but none of them are "OP" IMHO as they are good at EWAR and being stealthy while knowing where the more assault based frames (medium/heavy) are at all times so they can avoid them or pick them off if they happen to leave the pack.

I'd also really appreciate if you at least told me what you thought on my ideas even if it is harsh and you tell me "No, that would make scouts overpowered." Lol


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Toby Flenderson research lab 550	Posted - 2014.07.06 19:07:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: What do you feel about Amarr having the range, Gallente having dampeners, CA having precision and MM get better at hacking and running. I am not too comfortable with giving the CA both range and precision supremacy, I believe you have to make a choice. This sounds great to me. I have the Gal/Cal/Min scout at level 5 so I'd be losing my "range" scout for the second time, but I still think it needed to happen. It was way too easy to see everything/everywhere with two of the scouts after 1.8 so I'd like to see them become more specialized. I do have a specific question though regarding the Minmatar scout: How would you like to see the hacking improve? My Minmatar scout fittings all utilize complex code breakers as it is and they can hack objectives literally in front of enemies before they realize it's happening. I'm not asking for exact numbers, I'm just wondering if you were thinking of a passive bonus increase from 5% to x% or something else.
Toby Flenderson research lab 553	Posted - 2014.07.12 16:41:00 - [2] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Dear scouts, and I am looking at you Haerr , can you assist me in two ways double check my calculations, because this is pretty complex stuff, and even I can make mistakes and then start thinking about the right bonuses. We really want EWAR to be less binary, so I want to play with bonuses so that a dedicated scout with all slots, can evade even the best precision, but only while cloaked, but the gallente would retain the ability to be unscannable out of cloak. The numbers in the document are just something I was playing around with last night while proof reading the calculations, but they should be correct. Let's iterate on this over the weekend and early next week and see if we can't make it a little better then "ok". EWAR Calculations So you're saying that all scouts should require 2x complex damps to dodge the best scans but only if they use a proto cloak? No offense intended but that is a poor idea, as it takes away from modules like kin cats or range amps or cardiac regulators that some scouts (myself included) rely upon. I think the real problem comes down to being able to stack armor plates in the low slots while being unscannable, and id REALLY LOVE if there was a way to increase the speed penalty only for scouts/lights, making it very unnapatizing to use plates, and allowing scouts more freedom in their fittings in a competitive setting. Remember, in a PC match or a pub stomp or a competitive FW match, the best scans are going to be the ONLY scans, and there will be a few dedicated people whose only purpose is to use them at all times, making it necessary to dodge those scans. By requiring two damps to do so, the min/cal scout will be, pardon my french, screwed in every competitive setting due to their lack of an ability to use any other scoutly modules such as range amps or kin cats. Please reconsider this. If we continue to pursue the idea of a scout being a scout only if they have maxed out skills, can fit a proto cloak (minmitar can't btw if they run PG intensive modules), and completely ignore every EWAR and biotic module or tank module for dampeners. The real problem is EWAR + Brick tanking. EWAR is what the scout should be best at, so instead of screwing them through EWAR, why don't we nerf the scouts ability to plate stack/shield stack where they should be using range amps or kin cats or cardiac regulators by increasing the speed penalties and delay penalties by two (2) for light frames? If this happened, suits would look more like these-- http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5408 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5409 ---Assumes PG reduction for KinCats http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5410 http://www.protofits.com/fittings/shared/0/5411 If you look at these, none of them have the "pigeonholing" effect that is happening right now, but none of them are "OP" IMHO as they are good at EWAR and being stealthy while knowing where the more assault based frames (medium/heavy) are at all times so they can avoid them or pick them off if they happen to leave the pack. I'd also really appreciate if you at least told me what you thought on my ideas even if it is harsh and you tell me "No, that would make scouts overpowered." If you want to be invisible, shouldn't it cost you? What I mean is that if invisibility is your main concern, then you should choose the gal scout. If you'd prefer other scouty qualities like speed or scans then pick the minmatar or cal (now amarr I guess) scouts. What I don't understand is why people expect every scout to do everything without having to sacrifice a lot to do what other scouts were built for. This new approach of "every scout can be invisible with mods and a cloak" is perfect IMO. Damps should always beat precision as long as scans are shared. No question in my mind. So allowing EVERY scout to beat the scans with a cloak is fair to me. This is more than generous in itself. I don' understand why it also has to be easy to do with say a minmatar suit. If you want to be able to do this then you shouldn't also be able to tank biotics. This argument goes for any particular scout chasing after the bonus of a different scout. You should be able to get close (if not to the effectiveness of the intended scout) but it shouldn't also allow you keep slots for your own scout's tanking of speed/range/damps/scans or whatever else you choose.
Toby Flenderson research lab 553	Posted - 2014.07.12 16:46:00 - [3] - Quote Sorry, I guess I should've added that I support your idea of increasing the penalty for armor stacking scouts. I would also support a shield stacking penalty of some kind. Maybe the increase in profile that I hear about randomly in forums for shield tanking a scout. I'd actually support a blanket increase in any module and then giving out bonuses to each tier of suit accordingly to mimic the scout's reduction o cloak fittings. For instance make armor ridiculous to fit without the "75% fitting reduction for heavies and mediums" type bonus. Numbers are arbitrary ATM but you get the idea.
Toby Flenderson research lab 554	Posted - 2014.07.13 01:32:00 - [4] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The cloak is there for reference at the bottom. We can also reduce the dampening bonus of the cloak to zero. From a "I want all scouts to be unscannable in some way even by sacrificing all slots and cloak" point of view, I think we need to have that discussion. I think we can tune these numbers to an acceptable resolution. Why do you think ratio of precision to dampening should not be 1:1? This is the biggest problem with perceiving any sense of balance in giving Amarr Scout a bonus to precision. I don't understand the question. This game is played in absolutes. I want to have the lowest Scan Precision possible on one suit and the lowest Scan Profile possible on another. The question is if the best Scan Precision can be acquired in only 2 modules (Amarr Scout with 2 Complex Precision Enhancers) why shouldn't the best Scan Profile be similarly acquired with the same number of modules? Let's see how that scenario plays out by actually just changing the numbers. I'm just catching up on the dev posts so I don't know if anyone has brought this up again but if passive scans are shared then precision is innately more powerful. What I mean is that countering 6 dampened scouts with one player with high enough precision is not balanced. I'm for passive scans being shared but I'm also for every scout being invisible with enough sacrifice.