You can't.

That feels really ******* ****** if my bonus is tied to the cloak and I'll do everything I can to stop that from happening

@ Broker
Appia's right. As an alternative ...

GalScout "Ghost"
* Bonus to Cloak Duration OR Recharge OR Dampening & Shotgun max ammo capacity - alternatively and preferably, efficacy of Damps instead of any bonus to cloak at all

CalScout "Warden"
* Bonus to Precision Enhancers and Rail Rifle kick/charge time/max ammo capacity (pick one)

AmScout "Ranger"
* Bonus to Range Extenders and armor plate movement penalty

MinScout "Ninja"
* Bonus to Codebreakers and Knives

Thoughts?

I already said my piece about Range for Gallente and finding something useful for Amarr later

IMO, if the GalScout's bonus doesn't involve efficacy of damps, there's no reason for it not to plate up.

* Le Sigh *

You have to admit that Amarr weaponry lends itself to benefit from Range Extenders.
Jace nailed us with that one. There's no counter argument.

If we give that Range Extender bonus to Gallente, then what could we offer Amarr?
I thought Biotics, but the proposition bunches panties all around.

Gino says he'll need 2 damps. So he'll run 2 damps. If we give our "ghost" a bonus to damps, then we'll have to give our "ghost-buster" the precision needed to bust 'em. And then we'd be back to where we began; the MinScout marginalized by CalScout Precision chasing GalScout Profile.

Round and around we go :-)

Hmm, to go out and search for my old post on why Range is an important aspect of the Gallente Scout or to rewrite it?

The biggest issue with gino is that Cal scouts have no "real advantage" over regular scouts until you fit 3 precision enhancers. I don't jive with that. Its not a hunter if the other scouts can fit the same number of mods and do pretty much the same job.
(cals only get an advantage when a scout has cloak active)

Keep the stuff we have, but make it so scouts don't show up on passive radar. You make the hunter a hunter and not a lighthouse.

The biggest issue with gino is that Cal scouts have no "real advantage" over regular scouts until you fit 3 precision enhancers. I don't jive with that. Its not a hunter if the other scouts can fit the same number of mods and do pretty much the same job.
(cals only get an advantage when a scout has cloak active)

Keep the stuff we have, but make it so scouts don't show up on passive radar. You make the hunter a hunter and not a lighthouse.

The only real balanced way I can see this happening is if you make it so cal vs gal, they each have the same number of precision/damps the gal is detected, once cloak is active they aren't. Other scouts should have to fit one additional damp/precision on top of that to remain hidden/see.

Sad FACT: Ive been playing old NES games because everything else is boring.

No don't. I'm thinking an efficacy bonus to light-armor (i.e. ferroscale / reactive) for Amarr may be more appropriate. Will give it more thought and fill out the concept tomorrow.

The biggest issue with gino is that Cal scouts have no "real advantage" over regular scouts until you fit 3 precision enhancers. I don't jive with that. Its not a hunter if the other scouts can fit the same number of mods and do pretty much the same job.

Anyone know a TLDR for the shield module changes coming in bravo? I'm way too lazy to sift through the thread.

About Bloody Time

Wrote it out anyway. feel free to ignore

1) Ion Pistol, Shotgun, and Nova Knives are the only weapons we have that don't have an effective range within 30 meters, so Range amps benefit the Bolt Pistol, Magsec, Flaylock, Scrambler Pistol, SMG, Rail Rifle, Sniper Rifle, Swarm Launcher, Laser Rifle, Scrambler Rifle, Assault Rifle, Plasma Cannon, Combat Rifle, Mass Driver, and sleek Locus/AV grenades

2) Caldari Bolt Pistol, Magsec- which has a better range than the AR-, rail rifle and sniper rifle all have more range than the Scrambler and Laser Rifle, using the exact same reasoning why shouldn't Caldari be the ones to get the range amp bonus? It's faulty logic

3) When I look at infiltration I think of 3 things: Range, Precision, and Speed. The Minmatar Scout has the speed down, it is both the fastest suit and the fastest hacker. With my Minmatar Scout I can run into a point and jump a high priority target with knives, and with enough shields and the lack of stun lock I can then run the hell away and come in for another go or take some time and get rid of red uplinks and place blue ones then either wait for a red to come and take out my link or use it as a distraction to get a hack off.

With Caldari Precision I can move in slowly and carefully making sure no one is chasing me. The high precision protects my back from any scouts on defense that may chase after me. Or even give me a heads up if they are in my path or near me, letting me switch targets.

The third is Range. I can't tell you how much I miss running 1 damp, 1 range amp, 2 plates. But range is the Shotgun's best friend. The CQC shotgun scouts' main targets are the Slayerlogi and the Sentinel. It's why I made a post about my need for 600EHP. You know that first shot isn't going to kill. They can easily jump away to get outside optimal range making it take 2-3 more shots to kill. Range is important because it helps you pick out the route you're going to take to get to people.
When you see people moving in on your location with a little too much accuracy you know a Cal-Scout is there if you don't have the dampening effect. (sorry tangent. I loved active dampening because I could lure out people like this than cloak up again)
Ok. i'm sick. I think this made sense. I don't know. my head hurts and I should probably go back to sleep again. Range works best with CQC weapons, it works best when your passive scan range exceeds your weapon's effective range (effective which is greater than optimal)

This game is a shooter, I look at all of these abilities for how they can enhance my ability to shoot people

Anyone know a TLDR for the shield module changes coming in bravo? I'm way too lazy to sift through the thread.

I think it's important to remember that it's not just scouts the Warden is sharing passive scans of. It's everyone. He still has that basic utility in squad. But if he wants to see all those other scouts (whose entire intended role is to be stealthy) he should have to make sacrifices for it. Else the Warden simply negates the role of all other scouts by virtue of existing (the way it basically is now which most of us agree is bad, I think).


@Appia: I usually agree with everything you post, but on this one I gotta say, One scout can't be best at all the things =/

I mostly agree with you Appia. One point of difference.

I think there's actually 4 factors to infiltration. Speed, precision, range, and dampening. Being unseen is every bit as useful as being able to see, particularly when you can stack dampeners so that you know you are completely invisible to passive and active scans. And both are a damn sight more useful than being able to quickly run into scan range. There's a good reason why I run dampeners on my Min scout instead of KinCats and hack units.

Even with the removal of a range bonus for the Gal, they have the low slots to easily clear 60m while still being heavily damped. None of the rest of the scouts have that option. The Gal will be able to out-range and out-damp the Cal and Min, and will be balanced against the Amarr, who will have to decide between better range or equal dampening. Not both.

Look at the table and tell me why you would use a cal over any other scout suit for scanning. The ONlY utility it has is picking up scouts that have active cloak.

@shotty
How is a warden keeping scouts honest when regular scouts can do the same? Damps have no effect on non warden fits before 3+ enhancers. It shouldn't take an entire high slot rack to take advantage of your bonus.

@bastards
Why do you all have it in your mind all scouts should be immune to scans? If they have that option the cal and gal has no utility. If they can always "win". That will be the default. As long as uou include a mechanic that allows "waves of opportunity" it's more balanced. Aka cloak on, can't see. Cloak off you can. But both fits should make the same sacrifice in slots.

Look at the table and tell me why you would use a cal over any other scout suit for scanning. The ONlY utility it has is picking up scouts that have active cloak.

@shotty
How is a warden keeping scouts honest when regular scouts can do the same? Damps have no effect on non warden fits before 3+ enhancers.

@bastards
Why do you all have it in your mind all scouts should be immune to scans? If they have that option the cal and gal has no utility. If they can always "win". That will be the default. As long as uou include a mechanic that allows "waves of opportunity" it's more balanced. Aka cloak on, can't see. Cloak off you can. But both fits should make the same sacrifice in slots.

Separate equipment Active Damp cloak variantGǪ No Invisibility just dampGǪ It gives the option for the Cal, and Min to damp in waves
It can be done in the current system, just through the removal of invisibility from the cloak and tweaking the active time and the Damp%GǪ As a variantGǪ
We were close before alpha.
Said it before before they even launched the cloakGǪ it should be two separate pieces of equipment. Why not?

Dampening is a necessity. All scenarios were assumed 2 complex dampeners and a Cloak. The Min Scout had the option of a kincat or a codebreaker.
You were paying attention to the discussion, right? In Hearr's Gino table there's no room for Gallente dampening bonus without increase caldari precision which puts us back in square one with Min/Amarr being screwed over.

And just to make sure, you realize that Gallente and Amarr have the exact same slot layout because the second paragraph of yours makes me question that.

@ Broker
Are you not OK with Gino? Gino will fix MinScout / CalScout, and everything I'm suggesting assumes Gino is adopted.

@ Ghost
I'm having difficulty following your train of thought. Can you boil it down to an itemized list?

How Scanning works:

Gal Logi's are made to Scan Proto Damped suits and higher, but suffer from loss of scan duration. They can't keep scans up for a period of time. This makes them adept at scanning objectives to sense Spec Ops, but not to keep them lit up, just to tell you that they are there.

Gal Logi Focused is made to scan scouts. Once again, suffers from not being able to keep them lit up.

Cal Scouts are made to hunt Spec Ops suits. One of these guys is made to ruin their day. However, they don't share their scans. They are simply made to HUNT them, not to turn a squad into hunters.

Scouts are made to scan non-proto damped suits for extended periods of time. Some do it actively, some passively. Passive has the ability to scan 360 all the time, but lacks range. Active scans have a longer range, but have limited scan time and angle.

Hopefully, this balances scans.

You can't scan anything for forever. Each type of scanning has it's own pros and cons.

Want 360 24/7? You lack range and precision

Want to scan ANYTHING? You lack the ability to scan for duration and angle.

Want good distance and duration? You lack precision and angle

Lemme know if you wanna change anything.

Scout: Reconnaissance and Sabotage
They get the old bonus to dampening back. They should be able to dodge PRO Scans PASSIVELY. Dampening will still be encouraged on the suit, for Caldari Scout and Gal Logi reasons.

They can't cloak, but they don't need it. They have higher base Speed and passively dodge scans.

The Scout is made to dodge scanning, but can be seen. This makes them more viable as players who stay away from combat and focus on recon and running from combat.

Scout: 5% Reduction to Dampening, 5% Reduction to Active Scanner Cooldown

Spec Ops: Infiltration and Assassination
Gets the bonus to cloak, but has 40 base dB. This means that if they put on ONE complex Damp, they can get below Proto Scans (dB would be 27)

They get combat based bonuses for infiltration and sabotage. When you want to get down and dirty in the city, THIS is the go-to fit. Basically, their job is to get into the city and cause havoc.

Spec Ops: 15% Reduction to Cloak CPU/PG. (Bonus #2 Think of something that benefits the ideas of Infiltration and Assassination)

Playstyle: For the Slayer Scouts. These frames have speed and cloaking, but no dampening. Their greatest enemies are the Cal Scouts and Gal Logi's as they should be the only suits able to scan them through the cloak. Everyone else is a target.

Scouts have a love hate relationship with them. They can't be picked up by the Spec Ops passive scans (Unlike some of the other Med Frames), but at the same time, all of them have trouble scanning THEM as well.

One is electronically invisible, the other is VISIBLY invisible. Scouts will be able to outrun Spec Ops due to their higher base speed and due to the fact that they will most likely not be in the center of combat.

Scouts will be dead if caught by a med frame if they don't run.

Spec Ops have a fighting chance due to the cloak. They can still run, cloak, and set up a counter-attack. Scouts will have very little offensive capabilities due to them having only two sidearm slots. No Light Weapons.

They are made to fill to entirely separate roles, and with how scanning works above, I believe that all of the scouts will have their own "Niche" to perform.

@bastards
Why do you all have it in your mind all scouts should be immune to scans?