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Django Quik wrote:

Appia Vibbia wrote:

Django Quik wrote:

. . .
Bonuses should affect multiple things, so that each suit is not pushed into just one style. Okay, push a little in a particular direction but don't gimp anyone not going that way. Role bonuses should affect pretty much everything intended for that role -

Scouts our role bonus should be a fittings reduction on everything ewar and biotic (including cloaks).

The issue is that the way bonuses are currently we are corralled into very tight fittings set ups, rather than nudged towards styles. If scouts bonuses were more in favour of ewar/biotics, you'd see a lot less bricktankers (but you could still do that if you wanted to really be that light assault). If assault bonuses were more general, you'd see more of them too, I'm sure

Yes, we need a fitting bonus to EWAR mods that cost 26CPU, 33CPU, or 33CPU, and no PG requirement Roll

The cloak is EWAR. It's the only EWAR module that has a high fitting cost, second to the Active Scanner. Which we don't need as the Scout bonuses are to passive scanning.
Scouts might get the most benefit out of kincats and cardregs but that doesn't make them a scout-exclusive item. There's a growing trend out there to stack kincats on Sentinels. seeing as more sentinels are using biotic than scouts, wouldn't that mean they're a Sentinel thing?

I'm not saying the fittings requirements on those items should stay as they are if these bonuses are implemented.

I also make a repeated point of saying that these are just possible examples.

My intention is that role bonuses give people the opportunity to maximise on their suits inherent strengths. This is far preferable to giving people the opportunity to completely negate the inherent weaknesses of their suits.

Honestly Appia, your response here just seems like pedantry for the sake of argument.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1147	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:16:00 - [13621] - Quote mollerz wrote: Matticus Monk wrote: Hmmm.... do I sound lame? Maybe.... I'm sorry if I do, actually. That's not the intent. And I'm definitely all for CCP fixing bugs over pretty much anything else. They certainly need practice debugging and deploying fixes... it's a useful skill since they add enough new bugs every time they make a change to this pile of awesome. Wait.. how are you lame? lol. My guess is a bear trap. They do it every time. Looking for the scout hangout?
Master Smurf Nos Nothi 368	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:48:00 - [13622] - Quote Yes mollerz - you see no issue with it so everyone that does is obviously wrong. And if you dont see your hyper reaction responses (at least that is whow some of your posts come across) then excuse me from pointing it out. Said my piece and will leave it at that. "Shine bright like a diamond"
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4392	Posted - 2014.04.23 22:58:00 - [13623] - Quote I stand by what I said earlier for this argument. Pick one: Keep Cloak skills on the scout and watch as the cloak gets horribly nerfed Dump cloak skills, and focus on skills that have more to do with eWAR and the likes I for one, pick to dump the cloak. I use it because I have a bonus to it. I actually spend most of my time uncloaked, because I prefer the ability to have my gun up and ready at a moments notice. Cloaks give you a false sense of security, so I've learned to not rely on them. They are simply there to make you harder to see. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4394	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:00:00 - [13624] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: If you take away the cloak bonus to scout, then return the base DB of scouts to 45. Coupled with the old bonus? I'd take it. So long as I keep my hacking and knife bonuses. I consider those far more useful than the cloak bonus I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1376	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:09:00 - [13625] - Quote Appia, you're not wrong, we did keep the bonuses we had before, and we're not "forced" into a role, and we were given a free pass to a high fitting item. But no suit should ever be in a position were the game tells you "Sure, you could put that item on, but wouldn't you much rather this one that only you could reasonably use?" That's bad design, if you don't use it the game inherently makes you feel like you're missing out. It's the same reason I was against the Nova Knife bonus on the Minmatar scout, it tells the users "Y'know, you should really use this in that slot" but that's another issue, especially since so many seem happy with it. The same applies for Commando, Assault and logi racial bonuses "Oh no, don't go with that weapon/equipment, use this one that matches the colour of your suit or else you're worse than the others who use that suit and weapon combo" And the worst part about the role bonus? Newbies get shat on again. They gain nothing until level 4 of the Scout skill. Once again, bad design, locking newbies out of an item until they go about 1.5mil sp deep, and what if they don't like that role? Oh look, they used up nearly a months investment, then what they do? A: they quit (this is bad) or B: They head to the forums to meet a toxic community and ask if a respec is possible, by which point they get berated. (Turns out, this is also bad, who knew?) Did I miss anything? I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1318	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:38:00 - [13626] - Quote Spademan wrote: But no suit should ever be in a position were the game tells you "Sure, you could put that item on, but wouldn't you much rather this one that only you could reasonably use?" That's bad design, if you don't use it the game inherently makes you feel like you're missing out I disagree that it is bad design. What you're saying directly implies that no suit should ever have suit-specific bonuses that are meaningful. If they're not meaningful they may as well not be there. If they are meaningful, then of course you WILL be "missing out" if you dont fit according to the bonuses.
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4396	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:48:00 - [13627] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I like this. Its been a long time since we have had a good argument in here. Especially now that Quil talks sense. Argument time! (Gò»-¦Gûí-¦)Gò»n+¦ -ído+Ñs+¦¦¥q+¦+Éq ¦¥+Ñ-ç -P+öuGä¦ I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1379	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:54:00 - [13628] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: I disagree that it is bad design. What you're saying directly implies that no suit should ever have suit-specific bonuses that are meaningful. If they're not meaningful they may as well not be there. If they are meaningful, then of course you WILL be "missing out" if you dont fit according to the bonuses. Why should we be told to fit according to an arbitrary line of text? The bonuses could still be meaningful, why not give the Minmatar assault a clipsize increase to all weapons? And the same with the Gallente Assault bonus? I would include the Caldari assault, but that bonus got taken by the commandos. And the logi's, why not allow the Minmatar have a larger range on more than just the rep tool? Why not the nanohive too? This still creates meaningful and different roles, but still apply if you want to try something else. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1749	Posted - 2014.04.23 23:56:00 - [13629] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Spademan wrote: But no suit should ever be in a position were the game tells you "Sure, you could put that item on, but wouldn't you much rather this one that only you could reasonably use?" That's bad design, if you don't use it the game inherently makes you feel like you're missing out I disagree that it is bad design. What you're saying directly implies that no suit should ever have suit-specific bonuses that are meaningful. If they're not meaningful they may as well not be there. If they are meaningful, then of course you WILL be "missing out" if you dont fit according to the bonuses. I don't think a bonus should really apply to a SPECIFIC item. Like "the cloak" or "the scanner".... perhaps a range of items at most like "hybrid weaponry". Maybe this wouldn't be a problem if we had more racial EQ and you could go with "Gallente EQ" for the logi.... It's just a farce when it comes to fitting choices. Really, it's not a game about customizing your fit as you like, it's about selecting one of the many pre-defined most-efficient fits and rock/paper/scissor-ing it up from there. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Yan Darn Science For Death 656	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:43:00 - [13630] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: I stand by what I said earlier for this argument. Pick one: Keep Cloak skills on the scout and watch as the cloak gets horribly nerfed Dump cloak skills, and focus on skills that have more to do with eWAR and the likes I for one, pick to dump the cloak. I use it because I have a bonus to it. I actually spend most of my time uncloaked, because I prefer the ability to have my gun up and ready at a moments notice. So to clarify what I was trying to say was basically this ^ I'm seeing some stuff here that looks like it seems I and other are suggesting nerfs to cloaks - it's actually the opposite. If CCP do nerf cloaks however, in their special CCP way - how far would you take nerfs before you say 'hey cloaks are kinda crappy now, can we change our role bonus please?'. @ Monk & Quill - I'm fine with the 'hybrid weapon' type bonuses - I don't need to point out the variation there. Even active scanners have variations - but cloaks are...well you know how limited that choice is. But say a 25% reduction on Complex kincat fittings along with 25% CPU reduction (or increased efficacy?) on dampeners and precision enhancers etc.? There is broadness there that I thought would appeal to most scouts, no? In the end some people would be happier with the cloak bonus, others I guess would have rather have seen this handled differently and are now concerned about how it impacts future balancing. @ Appia - first, lulz. Second - I unfortunately have to (partly) agree about that thing about scouts who had their 'I'm in UP suit!' Excuse being bitter about being outperformed by other scouts. That is me right there. Pre 1.8 I hardly had to worry about my main weakness (scouts) killing me and other scouts outperforming me on my own team. Now though...but yeah -remember, I'm not asking to be nerfed. The opposite almost. Nerfs Bad. @ Everyone - there isn't enough bar fights here. The Ghost of Bravo

Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4403	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:46:00 - [13631] - Quote Drives a fist into Yan Darn's ribcage Flips over table Stumbles over a bar stool Spends 5 minutes trying to get up I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
mollerz 3335	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:49:00 - [13632] - Quote Master Smurf wrote: Yes mollerz- you see no issue with it so everyone that does is obviously wrong. -Finally. You are on the right track* And if you dont see your hyper reaction responses (at least that is whow some of your posts come across) then excuse me from pointing it out. Said my piece and will leave it at that. - OH BOO HOO Look- point out a real reason to nerf the cloak, and I will be the first to agree. *- Just kidding. You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1164	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:49:00 - [13633] - Quote Bar stools are OP. Looking for the scout hangout?
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1757	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:50:00 - [13634] - Quote Yan Darn wrote: But say a 25% reduction on Complex kincat fittings along with 25% CPU reduction (or increased efficacy?) on dampeners and precision enhancers etc.? There is broadness there that I thought would appeal to most scouts, no? In the end some people would be happier with the cloak bonus, others I guess would have rather have seen this handled differently and are now concerned about how it impacts future balancing. This would be sweet, and I'd much prefer that bonus which accentuates the scout's natural strengths but leaves a wide room for fitting diversity for various play styles. Double posting like a Kaiser.
mollerz 3335	Posted - 2014.04.24 00:51:00 - [13635] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Bar stools are OP. My cousin's on and off again BF got hit by a bar stool in a fight with off duty cops in NY. Given his huge facial scar I'd agree! You gotta hustle if you wanna make a dolla
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 316	Posted - 2014.04.24 07:52:00 - [13636] - Quote If you haven't seen this you should: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=153445&find=unread My friend and CEO Pokey has proposed a new mechanic for PC. He posted it a while ago but I wanted to see what people here thought.
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2956	Posted - 2014.04.24 08:17:00 - [13637] - Quote Wow, that argument really escalated quickly! ... Personally, I hate what CCP have done with many of the bonuses in this game. Personally I think logis got the worst end the stick because though they got fittings bonuses to ALL equipment, every single piece of equipment got nerfed, so that only one or two things are actually useful to each race! That's just batshitcraycray there. Bonuses should affect multiple things, so that each suit is not pushed into just one style. Okay, push a little in a particular direction but don't gimp anyone not going that way. Role bonuses should affect pretty much everything intended for that role - Scouts our role bonus should be a fittings reduction on everything ewar and biotic (including cloaks). Logis role bonus is fine (apart from it affecting cloaks too) but their race bonuses should affect more equipment types - for example: amarr could get an equipment carry increase perhaps; caldari get extra nanites for hives, needles, uplink spawns, other limited use things; gallente get extra range on everything, scanners, rep tool, hives, other remote use stuff; minmatar get speed increase on everything, rep tool rate, uplink spawn time, hive resupply rate, other ratey stuff. Assaults rightly get fittings reductions on all light weapons but their race bonus should not be tied to only one or two weapons; they should get bonuses that particularly affect their own racial weaponry but still have some good impact on other weapons. For example gallente get ROF increase, caldari range, minmatar clip and amarr damage. [NOTE - I am not saying these should be the bonuses; I've not put much thought into them at all] The issue is that the way bonuses are currently we are corralled into very tight fittings set ups, rather than nudged towards styles. If scouts bonuses were more in favour of ewar/biotics, you'd see a lot less bricktankers (but you could still do that if you wanted to really be that light assault). If assault bonuses were more general, you'd see more of them too, I'm sure. However, after all that long speechiness there is something more fundamental to everything said over the last few pages here - there is still so much that needs to be put right in this game before anything else is balanced at all. The decloak-insta-shoot bug (confirmed as a bug by CCP Rattati yesterday) needs to be fixed ASAP. Medium suits need the FULL balance pass they've been waiting for. Stunlock (or whatever we're calling it these days )needs fixing. Balance can NOT be done around bugs and known problems. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Mossellia Delt Militaires Sans Jeux 1254	Posted - 2014.04.24 10:25:00 - [13638] - Quote I'm here old friends, I missed you Join the Channel - CPM1 Candidates - Get to know who's running. Delt for CPM1
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 316	Posted - 2014.04.24 11:08:00 - [13639] - Quote Personally I feel bonuses should be tied to equipment/builds to stop people from just going: "Well this suits inherit bonuses work best with stacking damage and HP so that's what I'll use." So Gal scout should get bonuses to range amps and dampeners, Cal to precision and range and so on. Currently people use the inherent bonuses of the suit and then just build how they were going to anyway. This is why Scouts have become FotM. I would suggest making it a considerable bonus, the efficacy reduction we have on mods anyway would likely prevent exploiting (like having an insta-hack min scout).
noob cavman Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 1292	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:29:00 - [13640] - Quote Bonuses.... ehhhhh I build mine as a logi scout now. Core reps for all \o/ I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Jollys quirky inconsistent sidekick. dem spandex yo

Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2959	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:37:00 - [13641] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Personally I feel bonuses should be tied to equipment/builds to stop people from just going: "Well this suits inherit bonuses work best with stacking damage and HP so that's what I'll use." So Gal scout should get bonuses to range amps and dampeners, Cal to precision and range and so on. Currently people use the inherent bonuses of the suit and then just build how they were going to anyway. This is why Scouts have become FotM. I would suggest making it a considerable bonus, the efficacy reduction we have on mods anyway would likely prevent exploiting (like having an insta-hack min scout). I don't mind race bonuses being tied to more specific styles but not too specific. Role bonuses however, should be very wide-ranging. Assaults get weapons fitting reduction, logis equipment fittings reduction, sentinels tanking mods reduction, commandos weapon mods reduction (only dmg mods atm but the other ones too if/when they arrive) and scouts get ewar/biotics. (all examples only but I do like my thoughts on this so far) Then put in the more specific racial bonuses. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2959	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:38:00 - [13642] - Quote noob cavman wrote: Bonuses.... ehhhhh I build mine as a logi scout now. Core reps for all \o/ I'm only up to advanced rep tool but it's one of my fav fits lately - I just laugh at the thought of all the enemies looking at me and saying "Is that heavy being repped by a scout!?" teehee Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
noob cavman Heaven's Lost Property Dirt Nap Squad. 1293	Posted - 2014.04.24 12:41:00 - [13643] - Quote Django Quik wrote: noob cavman wrote: Bonuses.... ehhhhh I build mine as a logi scout now. Core reps for all \o/ I'm only up to advanced rep tool but it's one of my fav fits lately - I just laugh at the thought of all the enemies looking at me and saying "Is that heavy being repped by a scout!?" teehee Honestly the core pays for its self. jollys new vid shows off logi scouts. I did the links and a advance rep and he did nanohives and core. He just had to show the game were i did poop next game was much more entertaining ( so many easy tanks! ) I want to be a caveman! Ccp: DENIED YOU DRUNK Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Jollys quirky inconsistent sidekick. dem spandex yo
IgniteableAura Ancient Exiles. Dirt Nap Squad. 961	Posted - 2014.04.24 13:03:00 - [13644] - Quote In case you are not aware CCP is doing a twitch stream today at 1pm CDT on "whats to come" during fanfest. In case you are interested. Quote: On 24 April at 18:00 UTC we will host a live pre-Fanfest event via Twitch.TV to preview what fans can expect at the event. Join hosts CCP Guard and CCP Mimic as they grill developers from all our games and try to get them to spill the beans early. Source: ALLLLL the way at the bottom Youtube
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1393	Posted - 2014.04.24 13:39:00 - [13645] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: In case you are not aware CCP is doing a twitch stream today at 1pm CDT on "whats to come" during fanfest. In case you are interested. That's 7pm for anyone in Western Europe Summer Time. Or WEST. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Appia Nappia 621	Posted - 2014.04.24 13:41:00 - [13646] - Quote I wonder how long Mimic's hair has gotten since she shaved it all off for that fundraiser. Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2229	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:00:00 - [13647] - Quote Django Quik wrote: . . . Bonuses should affect multiple things, so that each suit is not pushed into just one style. Okay, push a little in a particular direction but don't gimp anyone not going that way. Role bonuses should affect pretty much everything intended for that role - Scouts our role bonus should be a fittings reduction on everything ewar and biotic (including cloaks). The issue is that the way bonuses are currently we are corralled into very tight fittings set ups, rather than nudged towards styles. If scouts bonuses were more in favour of ewar/biotics, you'd see a lot less bricktankers (but you could still do that if you wanted to really be that light assault). If assault bonuses were more general, you'd see more of them too, I'm sure Yes, we need a fitting bonus to EWAR mods that cost 26CPU, 33CPU, or 33CPU, and no PG requirement The cloak is EWAR. It's the only EWAR module that has a high fitting cost, second to the Active Scanner. Which we don't need as the Scout bonuses are to passive scanning. Scouts might get the most benefit out of kincats and cardregs but that doesn't make them a scout-exclusive item. There's a growing trend out there to stack kincats on Sentinels. seeing as more sentinels are using biotic than scouts, wouldn't that mean they're a Sentinel thing? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2962	Posted - 2014.04.24 14:19:00 - [13648] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Django Quik wrote: . . . Bonuses should affect multiple things, so that each suit is not pushed into just one style. Okay, push a little in a particular direction but don't gimp anyone not going that way. Role bonuses should affect pretty much everything intended for that role - Scouts our role bonus should be a fittings reduction on everything ewar and biotic (including cloaks). The issue is that the way bonuses are currently we are corralled into very tight fittings set ups, rather than nudged towards styles. If scouts bonuses were more in favour of ewar/biotics, you'd see a lot less bricktankers (but you could still do that if you wanted to really be that light assault). If assault bonuses were more general, you'd see more of them too, I'm sure Yes, we need a fitting bonus to EWAR mods that cost 26CPU, 33CPU, or 33CPU, and no PG requirement The cloak is EWAR. It's the only EWAR module that has a high fitting cost, second to the Active Scanner. Which we don't need as the Scout bonuses are to passive scanning. Scouts might get the most benefit out of kincats and cardregs but that doesn't make them a scout-exclusive item. There's a growing trend out there to stack kincats on Sentinels. seeing as more sentinels are using biotic than scouts, wouldn't that mean they're a Sentinel thing? I'm not saying the fittings requirements on those items should stay as they are if these bonuses are implemented. I also make a repeated point of saying that these are just possible examples. My intention is that role bonuses give people the opportunity to maximise on their suits inherent strengths. This is far preferable to giving people the opportunity to completely negate the inherent weaknesses of their suits. Honestly Appia, your response here just seems like pedantry for the sake of argument. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Quil Evrything Triple Terrors 1321	Posted - 2014.04.24 16:21:00 - [13649] - Quote Django Quik wrote: noob cavman wrote: Bonuses.... ehhhhh I build mine as a logi scout now. Core reps for all \o/ I'm only up to advanced rep tool but it's one of my fav fits lately - I just laugh at the thought of all the enemies looking at me and saying "Is that heavy being repped by a scout!?" teehee Now that you mention it... a scoutlogi, should be far better than a regular logi, for in-squad Heavy buddy, because of shared passive scan. Once more people figure this out, I would expect this to become the standard, rather than a rarity. Amarr Heavy+Cal Scout = Win. (Some people are probably going to want to bring up a certain unmentionable race's heavy suit to pair with the CalScout. I think that would be a problem when the 'team' keeps trying to kill each other more than the enemy... )
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1765	Posted - 2014.04.24 18:24:00 - [13650] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Django Quik wrote: . . . Bonuses should affect multiple things, so that each suit is not pushed into just one style. Okay, push a little in a particular direction but don't gimp anyone not going that way. Role bonuses should affect pretty much everything intended for that role - Scouts our role bonus should be a fittings reduction on everything ewar and biotic (including cloaks). The issue is that the way bonuses are currently we are corralled into very tight fittings set ups, rather than nudged towards styles. If scouts bonuses were more in favour of ewar/biotics, you'd see a lot less bricktankers (but you could still do that if you wanted to really be that light assault). If assault bonuses were more general, you'd see more of them too, I'm sure Yes, we need a fitting bonus to EWAR mods that cost 26CPU, 33CPU, or 33CPU, and no PG requirement The cloak is EWAR. It's the only EWAR module that has a high fitting cost, second to the Active Scanner. Which we don't need as the Scout bonuses are to passive scanning. Scouts might get the most benefit out of kincats and cardregs but that doesn't make them a scout-exclusive item. There's a growing trend out there to stack kincats on Sentinels. seeing as more sentinels are using biotic than scouts, wouldn't that mean they're a Sentinel thing? I'm not saying the fittings requirements on those items should stay as they are if these bonuses are implemented. I also make a repeated point of saying that these are just possible examples. My intention is that role bonuses give people the opportunity to maximise on their suits inherent strengths. This is far preferable to giving people the opportunity to completely negate the inherent weaknesses of their suits. Honestly Appia, your response here just seems like pedantry for the sake of argument. Solid points, Django. And I like Yan's other thread as well, even though this kind of stuff is really stirring up a lot of strong opinions. I definitely agree we'd need to make sure that the bonuses were appropriate, and not essentially useless given the module fitting cost. It's almost a foregone conclusion that CCP wouldn't get it right out of the gate. (or even on round 2) There are so many interesting ways to play, I wish the bonuses were broader.... Double posting like a Kaiser.



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