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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 13 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17707	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:41:00 - [1] - Quote Dear players, the experiments continue on the "share more data" front. Here is something that some of you fellow number-nutters might enjoy. The data is all kills in PC for a recent time period. First column is Dropsuit type and Second column is Weapon type, and the Kills are kills performed in that combination. Then, the last three columns are basically a one up category on both types, plus the Dropsuit race for further analysis. You can consider all of these kills performed in prototype gear, that is almost exclusively used in PC. Quick analysis (just drop the three last columns into an Excel pivot table, race across the columns and some conditional formatting to get the top 10 combinations), gives us: 1)AM Sent HMG, at 2X the next weapo 2)GA Scouts Shotgun 3)GA Sent HMG 4)Python MIssile Launcher 5)CA Scout Shotgun 6)MN Assault ACR 7) CA Sent HMG 8)Gunnlogi Railgun 9)MN Scout Nova Knifes 10)GA Scout Remote Explosives Picture for reference, and I know it is illegible Raw Data (csv) Also to note, MN Assault trending rapidly up, may need reining in soon. It's also interesting to study, not only the top, but the absolute combinations that are never used. For example, caldari scouts have no kills with nova knives. Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando. That's it, this is meant for the community to discuss, I have to work on some google docs "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 111	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:52:00 - [2] - Quote I, for one, am incredibly surprised that there isn't a single Gal Assault/ TAR up there Also Gal Scout...? You sure this wasn't from last patch? Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. BRB, looking for socks Asslut Rifles OP, anal now I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5135	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:34:00 - [3] - Quote To make things a little easier on the eyes... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bUltXQYBFeUqpvWsTbX72PEcSkUKlrqi8MSfWm3il0c/edit?usp=sharing "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15348	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:38:00 - [4] - Quote I don't know if the fact that nothing surprised me here, not even the Amarr Commando thing, should make me sad or laugh. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9722	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:39:00 - [5] - Quote Lol the only assault is the Minmatar assault. They called me crazy....I AINT CRAZY. That is a huge issue about the Knives and especially the Amarr commando. Something needs to be done about those pronto while reining in that Min Assault. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17711	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:46:00 - [6] - Quote well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5136	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:47:00 - [7] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I don't know if the fact that nothing surprised me here, not even the Amarr Commando thing, should make me sad or laugh. I think I've contributed a fair number of those very few Plasma Cannon kills on a Gallente Commando. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15349	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:55:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. Sure, but don't you find the Amarr and Gal Sent with the HMG outstripping together the next 5 suit combinations combined, kind of over the top? Some trends here and there are to be expected, but this is more than a trend in my eyes. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15349	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:56:00 - [9] - Quote >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >28th place >Looks at the weapon >rail rifle >Head desk Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5138	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:59:00 - [10] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >Finds one in 28th place >Looks at the weapon >Sees that it's a rail rifle >Head desk Well if the Caldari Assault actually got a bonus worth using.... "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15349	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:01:00 - [11] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Cat Merc wrote: >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >Finds one in 28th place >Looks at the weapon >Sees that it's a rail rifle >Head desk Well if the Caldari Assault actually got a bonus worth using.... Same goes for the Gal Assault, the bonus is too poor for them to care about losing it. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17714	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:01:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. Sure, but don't you find the Amarr and Gal Sent with the HMG outstripping together the next 5 suit combinations combined, kind of over the top? Some trends here and there are to be expected, but this is more than a trend in my eyes. That's the reason we are now, after achieving relative balance overall on Rifles, studying the combinations and see which ones are UP and OP. First things first. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7170	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:04:00 - [13] - Quote @ Rattati Can you provide us with the specific time frame? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 390	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:09:00 - [14] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. Sure, but don't you find the Amarr and Gal Sent with the HMG outstripping together the next 5 suit combinations combined, kind of over the top? Some trends here and there are to be expected, but this is more than a trend in my eyes. It's one (point defence) game mode and it guarantees a city map, it's going to feature a lot of heavies ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15349	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:18:00 - [15] - Quote Juno Tristan wrote: Cat Merc wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. Sure, but don't you find the Amarr and Gal Sent with the HMG outstripping together the next 5 suit combinations combined, kind of over the top? Some trends here and there are to be expected, but this is more than a trend in my eyes. It's one (point defence) game mode and it guarantees a city map, it's going to feature a lot of heavies City maps in general, doesn't matter if it's point defense or not. They're excellent in closed maps, regardless of attacking or defending. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Iria Gren Liquid Swords 113	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:35:00 - [16] - Quote Quote: No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando. I run almost nothing but Amarr commandos and this makes me happy, for soon there will be commando love.
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 10195	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:54:00 - [17] - Quote Just did some number crunching. Total Kills in PC: 231,145 (To do this quick, highlight the entire column, excel will add them for you. Don't forget to include the ones that weren't formatted correctly) Total HMG kills in PC: 62,491 % HMG Kills in PC: 27% You have a 1 in 4 chance of dying to an HMG in PC. The heavy spam is real. Something should probably be done about it. Personally, I think that the DPS needs to be brought down and cooldown dialed back to allow for longer bursts of fire. Rather than a death beam that heats up real quick, how about a deadly spray that is good for engagements vs. Multiple targets in CQC? Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman. Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe. Nobody messes with my family
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15351	Posted - 2015.03.03 05:58:00 - [18] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Just did some number crunching. Total Kills in PC: 231,145 (To do this quick, highlight the entire column, excel will add them for you. Don't forget to include the ones that weren't formatted correctly) Total HMG kills in PC: 62,491 % HMG Kills in PC: 27% You have a 1 in 4 chance of dying to an HMG in PC. The heavy spam is real. Something should probably be done about it. Personally, I think that the DPS needs to be brought down and cooldown dialed back to allow for longer bursts of fire. Rather than a death beam that heats up real quick, how about a deadly spray that is good for engagements vs. Multiple targets in CQC? Rattati said he's happy with the DPS of the HMG VoV I might have changed by now, but that's a thing he said a while back. Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17720	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:03:00 - [19] - Quote HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 316	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:05:00 - [20] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. Yes! Molestia approved

Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4632	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:08:00 - [21] - Quote Yeah, HMG and shotguns seems about right. I actually got some kills in PC with Amarr commando last week. Didn't realize I was pulling out a unicorn. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 317	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:12:00 - [22] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Yeah, HMG and shotguns seems about right. I actually got some kills in PC with Amarr commando last week. Didn't realize I was pulling out a unicorn. caldari assault in pc. I pulled out an Alicorn apparently. Molestia approved
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1345	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:13:00 - [23] - Quote Highly specialized weapons and suits still are abused. Scout, whose task should be to EWAR and covert penetration (uplinks for team), has the means of attack. ...we can not blame the players - they simply choose what works best. Please support fair play!
Cat Merc Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 15351	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:13:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. https://i.imgur.com/j7TYYkE.jpg Cat Merc for C¦¦P¦¦M¦¦9¦¦ CPM Nyan! *Vote 'Keshava' for the new Gallente vehicle name!*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9725	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:14:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. More Anti Armor Anti Vehicle weapons! Just what we needed! I sure hope you at least intend on having EM Warhead Swarms when you add in the Auto Cannon. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4632	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:18:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. Talking about AV weapons is changing the Swarms to a Caldari damage profile still being considered? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 890	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:20:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. It is black and white. You run max hp sentinels or re scouts to kill sentinels. The combo of both are used to give heavies working passive scans. Python missiles kill everything. Gunnlogi rail kills drop ships from redline. Minmatar assault is rising because it's there's something wrong with it. It's too fast even with plates on it. And it has the same hitbox issues as the cal scout now.
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1346	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:45:00 - [28] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: It is black and white. You run max hp sentinels or re scouts to kill sentinels. The combo of both are used to give heavies working passive scans. Python missiles kill everything. Gunnlogi rail kills drop ships from redline. Minmatar assault is rising because it's there's something wrong with it. It's too fast even with plates on it. And it has the same hitbox issues as the cal scout now. 10/10 Please support fair play!
Random1628 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 3	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:55:00 - [29] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... Well I don't know the exact reason for the use of the Amarr and Caldari Heavy Frames, I do know the reasons for using the Minmatar and Gallente and that being speed. Now I use the Minmatar Heavy Frame because of the increased base movement speed with sprint speed of 7.71 with two Kin Cats and the Burst HMG and I'd like to think that I got most of those kills but I don't know for sure and the probably the reason some one/people use the Gallente is for the 7.85 sprint speed but I don't know anyone that uses it.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7172	Posted - 2015.03.03 06:59:00 - [30] - Quote John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. Today, the GalLogi is the only competitive recon unit. It is also the only competitive source of low-dB counter-infiltration (excluding inner Falloff rings). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Zaria Min Deir 0uter.Heaven 1204	Posted - 2015.03.03 07:13:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? Also, what I find interesting is, how several scouts have stated that the Gal Logi scans make them obsolete in PC, when both this chart, and the experiences of most who currently play PC, begs to differ. 4 out of the 10 top killers being scouts. And surpirisingly, REs are not the highest scout placement, even. Sentinels, scouts and vehicles, yep, that's PC. Maybe, however, we would see some variety in the weapons used by sentinels, if they had options other than HMG? Not saying the HMG doesn't need balancing, it clearly does. Also, poor Amarr Commando :( Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22433	Posted - 2015.03.03 07:14:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. At last! Gallente Guide

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17741	Posted - 2015.03.03 07:53:00 - [33] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. At last! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 151	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:06:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, the experiments continue on the "share more data" front. Here is something that some of you fellow number-nutters might enjoy. The data is all kills in PC for a recent time period. First column is Dropsuit type and Second column is Weapon type, and the Kills are kills performed in that combination. Then, the last three columns are basically a one up category on both types, plus the Dropsuit race for further analysis. You can consider all of these kills performed in prototype gear, that is almost exclusively used in PC. Quick analysis (just drop the three last columns into an Excel pivot table, race across the columns and some conditional formatting to get the top 10 combinations), gives us: 1)AM Sent HMG, at 2X the next weapo 2)GA Scouts Shotgun 3)GA Sent HMG 4)Python MIssile Launcher 5)CA Scout Shotgun 6)MN Assault ACR 7) CA Sent HMG 8)Gunnlogi Railgun 9)MN Scout Nova Knifes 10)GA Scout Remote Explosives Picture for reference, and I know it is illegible [img]http://puu.sh/gkbJz/fe98516519.png[/img] Raw Data (csv) Also to note, MN Assault trending rapidly up, may need reining in soon. It's also interesting to study, not only the top, but the absolute combinations that are never used. For example, caldari scouts have no kills with nova knives. Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando. That's it, this is meant for the community to discuss, I have to work on some google docs Okay so most corporations want the city in pcs, that's why you see so many heavys, they will always be best point defence. However the amar sentinel has to much shield, it already has the most armour. Min assault is building due to speed and shield stacked. You have an extreme challenge trying to register bullets. The amar commando is pointless in my view. The damage is just not enough as a bonus when you have the amar assault having such an insane bonus and being able to stack better it is useless :/ Assault combat rifle is used due to close range, like cities only way you honestly change the data is bringing more maps! Maps that require all range battles and not just close exposedsquad
Wolfica Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 812	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:09:00 - [35] - Quote working on a commentary for why suits/weapons are being used together. have top 10 so far only 500 more to go https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lVSresvJVfczA3DXxZ-3GtdQD2NpYjV9_-gaMKRXRAA/edit?usp=sharing (spreadsheet was copied from Leowen Dravon's post earlier in this thread) contact: [email protected] twitter:@Wolfica514 Skype:Wolfica.514 OG Director of FA, and owner of TLoDT
H0riz0n Unlimit 489	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:13:00 - [36] - Quote If you nerf Ak.0 sentinel there will be a lot of scrubs buyng respecs and skilling the new OP/FOTM, so, please, do it ( said a poor gal heavy) "Doc DDD is better than you" cit. Extacy cravings; Dead man's game proud member since 09/14. Alt of The KTM(FOTM) DuKe
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 151	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:19:00 - [37] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. At last! Range I understand but dps? With a tone of range surely a tonne of dps will Turn it into a close range freedom? Which honestly will mean shield suits will make fun of heavies exposedsquad
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7431	Posted - 2015.03.03 08:32:00 - [38] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. I have proposed numbers for autocannon for you. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2267	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:03:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. Foreword: I am not a pc player. Will assault HMG dispersion actually allow it to be used over those ranges? Also, my experience with nova knife on cal-scout is that it's sub-optimal as your large scan radius allows you to carry a longer range weapon like the SCR / ARR for fighting, the cal scouts that I do see going 'short range' prefer to use shotguns as they're considerably easier to use at short range. In regards to the shotgun & the fact that it's practically exclusive to the scout - The weapon relies far too much on stealth & speed, If it was capable of hitting out to say 20m people wouldn't have to make the crazy suicide rushes / brazen "IM GUNNA RUN STRAIGHT AT YOU & DECLOAK THEN JUMP N SHOOT" plays that they do with them. I'd love to see shotguns be affected by gal assault bonus & be a viable carry for short range fights where they just kind of rack shots into/at you at around 20m. 20m optimal, 27m effective sound reasonable with some reduction of damage so they're not super-insta-murder weapons? As far as dropships go? Yeah missiles being used because it's too damn hard to hit / kill infantry with rails / blasters & rooftop uplink spam being a thing in every game mode. I almost wish blasters were shotgun-turrets. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
G Clone Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:11:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Dear players, the experiments continue on the "share more data" front. Here is something that some of you fellow number-nutters might enjoy. Rattati, Just to reiterate why this sort of data should come via APIs, instead of you manually exporting and analysing: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php Even the analysis work can be "out-sourced" to players (or the CPM?): https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2072141#post2072141

Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1687	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:15:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. This sentinel-meta has been the exact same since 1.8, it is about ******* time you do something to Fix it. This is not about avoid choosing the sub-optimal choice in PC, this is about "spam as many heavy as we can" (where heavy means sentinels.) I love CCP Rattati and everything but I cant stand these sentinels being so ez game One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:24:00 - [42] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Also to note, MN Assault trending rapidly up, may need reining in soon. Most MN Assault usually sprint at 9.73 m/s (faster than average scout sprint) by stack 2 kinkat but still maintain EHP at around 800 Combine with ewar falloff at close range for self-awareness, this is probably the best combination!(FAST + TANK + AWARENESS) CCP Rattati wrote: caldari scouts have no kills with nova knives. NK is really a niche weapon. It require high skill + low profile + fast movement in order to make it effective. To kill any photo suit, even scout, you would need to hit the target with both swing (311 dmg per swing with 1 dmg mod) below 2.5M, but SG do 700+ dmg with only 1 shot at 10M. So, why would you choose to run NK over SG on other suit except MN scout? Only 1 reason I run gal scout with NK is because it can really damp (2 complex damp) but still maintain the speed above 9 m/s (1 kinkat) and can scan un-damp scout! CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... Heavy basic frames grain favor on high slot with a small difference on EHP compare to Sentinel. When it has a photo rep stick to the butt, they can push out more dmg by stack dmg mod. CCP Rattati wrote: No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando. Can you give me a good reason to run Amarr commando in PC? Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Haerr Nos Nothi 2416	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:26:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: NUMBERS So in PC you are more likely to be killed by someone in a Scout suit than an HMG. inb4nerfscouts
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 886	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:27:00 - [44] - Quote What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1687	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:34:00 - [45] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: NUMBERS So in PC you are more likely to be killed by someone in a Scout suit than an HMG. inb4nerfscouts Not sure if trolling or just completely retrd... One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 152	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:37:00 - [46] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. This sentinel-meta has been the exact same since 1.8, it is about ******* time you do something to Fix it. This is not about avoid choosing the sub-optimal choice in PC, this is about "spam as many heavy as we can" (where heavy means sentinels.) I love CCP Rattati and everything but I cant stand these sentinels being so ez game But pag heavy spam is only reliable on two points :/ it's easy to deal with outside if that makes sense exposedsquad
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 152	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:45:00 - [47] - Quote Okay nerf the hmg I'll just use my shotgun on my heavy suit in PC >: ( exposedsquad
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 159	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:49:00 - [48] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. - Heavy is dominate both in and out PC. Rattati words " It's too damn high, ranking with top tier rifles. " - 90% of the Logis make very high WP by stick a rep tool to heavy butt. Try implement overheat to it, and you will see the totally difference. Once it happens, we can talk about buff logi - You talk about python kills compare to Incubus, What about lost? Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 153	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:50:00 - [49] - Quote Getting fed up of this fast, heavies will have the most kills? They're defenders? They are ment to have most kills -_- exposedsquad
Pagl1u M Dead Man's Game RUST415 1688	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:50:00 - [50] - Quote jade gamester wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. This sentinel-meta has been the exact same since 1.8, it is about ******* time you do something to Fix it. This is not about avoid choosing the sub-optimal choice in PC, this is about "spam as many heavy as we can" (where heavy means sentinels.) I love CCP Rattati and everything but I cant stand these sentinels being so ez game But pag heavy spam is only reliable on two points :/ it's easy to deal with outside if that makes sense This reminds me of a conversation I had with Sota pop. He said the same thing you just said and I asked:"So what am I, as an assault, supposed to do in a PC match? " his answer was" stay outside of the city or camp roofs". This is BS to me! An assault is supposed to be assaulting points, not only outsider points. Jade you are a great PC sentinel, tell everyone here, what is the main force used to assault points in the city in any PC: assaults or sentinels? Sentinels role should be to defend points but they ve been since 1.8 also the greatest pushing resource for every team. But why are we even talking? Just take a look at the numbers! One of the few assaults you'll find in a PC match!

Haerr Nos Nothi 2417	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:50:00 - [51] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: NUMBERS So in PC you are more likely to be killed by someone in a Scout suit than an HMG. inb4nerfscouts Not sure if trolling or just completely retrd... Can't I be both?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17755	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:51:00 - [52] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Haerr Nos Nothi 2417	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:57:00 - [53] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. What is the Scout Suits K/S?
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 972	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:58:00 - [54] - Quote I don't understand the surprise, even without the numbers you clearly see heavies and min assaults with CR everywhere. I had my first ambush the other day where there were just minmatar suits running CR (plus one min logi). As the only amarr carrying a scrambler rifle this was infuriating as they were on my team. CCP do something about all these heathens!!
Grimmiers 810	Posted - 2015.03.03 09:59:00 - [55] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. About damn time... They'd still be scary with a 10% damage nerf
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 391	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:02:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Are you factoring in Logis? There's a reason the heavies being used are armour based... ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7432	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:50:00 - [57] - Quote So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone. But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed. In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read. Why? Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?" Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial? Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place. Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters. Why? The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:" There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms). So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? AV
VALCORE72 Dead Man's Game RUST415 221	Posted - 2015.03.03 10:57:00 - [58] - Quote what about when the hmg is is being used it slows the heavy down like when usen a forge gun? about the mim assault its mostly its the way it moves . has a scout strafe and thats based off walk speed i hear . make all assaults walk speed 3 or 4 max . plus dont let kin cats effect walkn speed . it does change walkn speed. assault over land speed to move from point to point needs to be there but its the strafe on some suits that are breakn it . ive seen amar assault strafe as fast as a mim . think kats need lookd at .
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4363	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:03:00 - [59] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone. But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed. In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read. Why? Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?" Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial? Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place. Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters. Why? The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:" There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms). So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? I strongly agree in theory; in practise, a Sentinel isn't going to be all that good at area denial when he can't deal effective damage (as opposed to his effective range) outside what, thirty metres? I think either the HMG will need some seeerrious reworking or we'll need more weapon options. Neither of which options to which I am opposed. Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7433	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:06:00 - [60] - Quote Remove aim assist from the HMG. It WILL make a rather large difference in performance. I have tested it with the DS3 (I suck badly) I tested this with raw mouse input (its bad) Then I hooked up a xim to the ps3 and tried it with aim assist. In both control option cases the HMG SIGNIFICANTLY performed better than the non-AAoption by a wide and notable margin? AV

Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 437	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:07:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Logi's keep Heavy's alive so they can keep that HMG Firing. Heavy only has two weapons to use Forge gun and HMG. Nerf it and you will see Heavy's with Light weapons kept alive by logis rep tool .Think about it again. 1.Heavy nerf Heavy weapon slot only for Heavy Weapon. Question how long are they staying alive once combat starts?Shotgun scout take my heavy out to fast for my liking but I can live with that if I have a hmg that can kill that lightly armored scout .
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2267	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:12:00 - [62] - Quote I would be okay with a HMG being a 50m ~500dps 30 seconds of fire (this is highly exaggerated) death-hose rather than a 'room by room brawler'. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7434	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:12:00 - [63] - Quote If the HMG hits a certain range/damage threshold, the competitive players in PC will move directly to shotguns. AV
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2267	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:14:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If the HMG hits a certain range/damage threshold, the competitive players in PC will move directly to shotguns. Shotguns themselves could use a rework, and I would be entirely okay with heavies using shotguns at 20m Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Big miku Nation of Miku 457	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:35:00 - [65] - Quote SO when is the new heavy weapon coming, Complaining about the Heavy having a high kill stat with their only AI heavy weapon is a bit silly, of course it will close in on Rifles stats, it is the only heavy weapon for AI after all. The stats would even out if there were more heavy weapons, but hey Nerf away, go ahead and reduce the Heavy Frames HP and nerf the HMGs 30m Optimal Range and 50m Effective. All in all, it will not change a thing unless you nerf the heavy down to Assault levels HP and make the HMGs damage DPS as low as an Rifle, at which point Heavys will just use Rifles. And keep making the players figure out the weapon ranges, that is nice https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FYU-aHBH9jmOdTd9LFJu6XlmvINRapJGw71OAE49Qec/edit#gid=0
VALCORE72 Dead Man's Game RUST415 221	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:36:00 - [66] - Quote hmg nerf yeaaaa heavys with rails inc soon lol or shottys
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7434	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:45:00 - [67] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: hmg nerf yeaaaa heavys with rails inc soon lol or shottys This. Bluntly the HMG and swarms both need a core overhaul. They are not working as intended. AV
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 887	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:50:00 - [68] - Quote To reply to rattati and the others who brought up valid points about heavies, K/S, reps, and logis. I agree that heavy CQC dominance needs to be adressed. I dont think nerfing the HMG is the way to go about it. Its been modified in several hotfixes, and this hasn't stopped it from being a dominant CQC killer. After all, CQC is their role, even if you nerf the HMG to 20m range, it will still devastate anybody who gets close. CQC in PC being the way it is, those fights are not happening at 40-50m out, they are happening in and around letters at 20m or less, where the most vicious fights take place. In CQC between the shotgun scouts, remotes, and the heavys, theres very little room for the assaults to fit in. The minmatar assault is one of the few that can stick and move with the scouts which IMO explains its rise, and the Viziam Scrambler can charge single shot most scouts, can also explain why its use is disproportionatley higher in PC compared to the Pubs. Another poster here brought up the point, that if its not the HMG, it will be bricked sentinels with the same logis on their butts, using the hardest hitting light weapons. I ask any members of the hardcore PC community whether you see more heavy spam on the wide open maps or in the closed in city socket maps. Only two PCs that i have been in were in open maps, thats where dropships/scouts were dominant. Compared to normal skirm, heavies sit on points there as well, but most of the fighting occurs in between points trying to cut off marauding bands of scouts and assaults. Domination is point defense heavy heaven. Ambush on open maps heavies get eaten alive. In CQC maps, they eat everybody else alive. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7434	Posted - 2015.03.03 11:52:00 - [69] - Quote Let's be clear about one thing even though my posts might on the surface smell of "dont nerf my (insert stupid thing here). I am all for fixing sentinels. I am all for making HMGs not be instapop deathvomit. I am not, however, a fan of balancing methods which have, time and time again, proven either inineffectual or utterly neutering. The whole "reduce HMG range/damage" have been done over and over again. And every single time within three patch cycles, someone gets it in their head that reverting those changes will provide a balanced fix. This pendulum has been swung far too many times for me to have any faith in it's ability to solve the core issues with the gun. It's time to rethink how the gun works entirely. AV
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 893	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:07:00 - [70] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? Also, what I find interesting is, how several scouts have stated that the Gal Logi scans make them obsolete in PC, when both this chart, and the experiences of most who currently play PC, begs to differ. 4 out of the 10 top killers being scouts. And surpirisingly, REs are not the highest scout placement, even. Sentinels, scouts and vehicles, yep, that's PC. Maybe, however, we would see some variety in the weapons used by sentinels, if they had options other than HMG? Not saying the HMG doesn't need balancing, it clearly does. Also, poor Amarr Commando :( the gal logi scans make dampened scouts obsolete, and i what mean is that you have to become paper thin to even have a chance of getting under them and when you do... gal logi active scans simply say "margin of error" and the everyone knows youre coming lol so as long as there's at least one gal logi on the field, the scouts wont even bother with damps. theyll just speed mods shotgun, re's, nova knives and lurk around looking for enemy uplinks. or blind siding people while theyre preoccupied with other things. all the scouts ive faced in PC unfortunately die in a fire, simply because i was expecting them because... gal logi told me they were coming.

shaman oga Dead Man's Game 4093	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:12:00 - [71] - Quote As expected AM sentinel is on top of that list. The only reason AM assault is not there is because bad framerate make scr rifle worse than an automatic weapon. Milk my barge > Acquire Key > Open mistery box > quit Dust514
GLOBAL RAGE Consolidated Dust 107	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:15:00 - [72] - Quote SPEED...... MINASS is to fast Nova knives on suits that are too fast RE's dropped by suits that can run away too fast. Shotguns on suits that are too fast, now the minass 4k kills..lol Auto weapons like the ACR will be used because of bad hit detection. HMG solves bad hit detection. slow EVERYTHING down-the game is broken. I requested the APEX efficiency numbers, I already knew the results, so that the above points could be made.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 893	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:20:00 - [73] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: To reply to rattati and the others who brought up valid points about heavies, K/S, reps, and logis. I agree that heavy CQC dominance needs to be adressed. I dont think nerfing the HMG is the way to go about it. Its been modified in several hotfixes, and this hasn't stopped it from being a dominant CQC killer. After all, CQC is their role, even if you nerf the HMG to 20m range, it will still devastate anybody who gets close. CQC in PC being the way it is, those fights are not happening at 40-50m out, they are happening in and around letters at 20m or less, where the most vicious fights take place. In CQC between the shotgun scouts, remotes, and the heavys, theres very little room for the assaults to fit in. The minmatar assault is one of the few that can stick and move with the scouts which IMO explains its rise, and the Viziam Scrambler can charge single shot most scouts, can also explain why its use is disproportionatley higher in PC compared to the Pubs. Another poster here brought up the point, that if its not the HMG, it will be bricked sentinels with the same logis on their butts, using the hardest hitting light weapons. I ask any members of the hardcore PC community whether you see more heavy spam on the wide open maps or in the closed in city socket maps. Only two PCs that i have been in were in open maps, thats where dropships/scouts were dominant. Compared to normal skirm, heavies sit on points there as well, but most of the fighting occurs in between points trying to cut off marauding bands of scouts and assaults. Domination is point defense heavy heaven. Ambush on open maps heavies get eaten alive. In CQC maps, they eat everybody else alive. i did a PC against KEQ a week ago. obviously we had a cargo hub and were defending. 2 inside and 2 out. KEQ sent 4 guys outside to our home point. 3 scouts and one badly injured amarr assault. the scouts all died in a fire. and the assault guy was too wounded to do anything really. on the inside, almost everything i shot at was amarr sentinel, each with over 1100 armor. why? easy. its so cramped in there that you cant engage anyone until youre bumping into each other. the heavies have so much eHP that 3 of them will hack while a 4th body blocks your shots. they can actually get the hack off before you can kill them all, individually, so thats where the scouts with re's come into play. you gotta bomb them all in one shot cause nothing else works. its easier to fight indoors because it excludes so many other factors. snipers, long range weapons, and vehicles are largely ineffective. and everything else is ineffective against heavies with hmgs, so there's little room for anything else. show up in a heavie suit and your fairly well protected from light weapons in general. the only thing that effectively takes out heavies are the re's in cqc.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 893	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:25:00 - [74] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Let's be clear about one thing even though my posts might on the surface smell of "dont nerf my (insert stupid thing here). I am all for fixing sentinels. I am all for making HMGs not be instapop deathvomit. I am not, however, a fan of balancing methods which have, time and time again, proven either inineffectual or utterly neutering. The whole "reduce HMG range/damage" have been done over and over again. And every single time within three patch cycles, someone gets it in their head that reverting those changes will provide a balanced fix. This pendulum has been swung far too many times for me to have any faith in it's ability to solve the core issues with the gun. It's time to rethink how the gun works entirely. get rid of its improved accuracy over firing time. OR increase scan range on all drop suits so we can see the heavies 50m out. they cant kill us if we can avoid them. the fact that you cant see them until youre well within their optimal range is a problem IMO
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 391	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:26:00 - [75] - Quote Hey Rattati, a couple of questions do you exclude logis when running rifle K/S stats? is there a noticeable difference between shield vs armour suit performance? (plus don't forget logi + heavy will affect the HMG performance) ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 893	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:28:00 - [76] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. can you determine if that's because those heavies have one are more logis repping them? i believe thats a factor. heavies are almost always being repped by at least 2 logis. often times i can cause enough damage to deter them from advancing but not actually kill them. then they group up and blob me with the help of the logis.
Poultryge1st KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 95	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:32:00 - [77] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Let's be clear about one thing even though my posts might on the surface smell of "dont nerf my (insert stupid thing here). I am all for fixing sentinels. I am all for making HMGs not be instapop deathvomit. I am not, however, a fan of balancing methods which have, time and time again, proven either inineffectual or utterly neutering. The whole "reduce HMG range/damage" have been done over and over again. And every single time within three patch cycles, someone gets it in their head that reverting those changes will provide a balanced fix. This pendulum has been swung far too many times for me to have any faith in it's ability to solve the core issues with the gun. It's time to rethink how the gun works entirely. Could not have put it better myself. If I remember correctly this will be the forth time the pendulum has been swung back the other way since the HMG was introduced to the game. Unfortunately I do not see it fixing the problem this time either.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1235	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:32:00 - [78] - Quote Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I bet they will nerf all the assaults to fix the min assault problem as well, lol The same as they nerfed all the scouts to fix the shotgun gal scout. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Faction
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7443	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:42:00 - [79] - Quote Until the following things are addressed: Strafing breaking hit detection. The supposed "fix" was only applied to the dropsuits that were incapable of using the exploit in the first place due to lower baseline speed. Sentinels, amarr and gallente assault/logi. Inertia must be added to dropsuits to fix this. Fix the controls. Screw remapping, the X, Y, Z direction controls are the worst of any FPS I have played. Combine this with the strafe issue and the HMG with AA active is the only real counter. Framerate drops: also affects hit detection. Regardless of whether the HMG/Sentinel combo needs fixing (it does) without these three things, nothing will ever get fixed, especially with at least one CPM (soraya) actively opposing limiting things like chat and mail notifications in battle because apparently the core game is less important than social networking. If anyone tries to call me on the last I'll post the skype logs. I'm done trying to be nice when over and over valid input has been utterly ignored by all indication. This right here is the capper. After six months of offering solutions oonly to be treated like it's a repeat of the ADS crowd basically saying "we know we're OP, but we don't want to offer ideas for fixes." I've been trying to provide useful feedback, as have many others. If we're wasting our time trying to help by all means say so. Because that's exactly what this feels like. AV
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 888	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:49:00 - [80] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I bet they will nerf all the assaults to fix the min assault problem as well, lol The same as they nerfed all the scouts to fix the shotgun gal scout. The "Min assault problem" I'm going to run some comparable fits and see if it really pans out. I think its versatility that makes it the most popular, not simply speed. In terms of pure DPS, , or HP stacking gallente/amarr assault can put out much more than the min. but vulnerable to an anti armor weapon. Shield, certainly caldari is the king of those. Vulnerable to anti shield weapons. Speed and being able to mix the two types of eHP to have some defense against all weapons type projectile, hybrid, blaster, and laser weapons is whats in the minmatars favor. A good shield and a good armor buffer. A dual tanked caldari can pull it off, but lose a lot of speed doing so. all of my assaults are the racial ADV suits, though i admit some bias, Minmatar was my main assault suit for a very long time Gonna speed tank them all and check the stats, then make a thread about it later. I think i can get a lot more eHP out of a caldari or gallente speed tanked suit, maybe not toe to toe faster than the min, but quite a good ways up there. I think i can get quite a bit of speed out of the amarr, but not as much shield to make up for it. More on that in another thread. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7444	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:52:00 - [81] - Quote Minmatar dropsuits take more SP than any other racial to make effective. Once you get those SP dialed in and figure out the speed tactics, you're pretty much death on a cracker because of bad hit detection. On those occasions when the shots register mminmatar ANYTHING goes down like a house of cards in a gale. AV
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 894	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:52:00 - [82] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I bet they will nerf all the assaults to fix the min assault problem as well, lol The same as they nerfed all the scouts to fix the shotgun gal scout. they could do alot just by nerfing all weapon damage by 10%. Then add 10% damage bonuses to the appropriate suits. the end result would something like this: min assault 10% bonus to light projectile weaponry min scout 10% bonus to sidearm projectile weaponry what it also means, is that racial weapons would always perform better and their intended suit. a gal assault with AR would always be better than amarr assault with AR because the gal assault would get a 10% damage bonus over the amarr. and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. now you can balance suits by intended design, because no competitive player is going to put himself at a disadvantage by using a non bonused weapon on their suit.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7444	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:55:00 - [83] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. Please don't. I know your suggestion is intended well but this will have serious consequences in the AV side. The kind that mean more vehicle rebalancing than we already have to do. AV
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 391	Posted - 2015.03.03 12:56:00 - [84] - Quote I don't think get this spreadsheet Is the first column total kills using the specific suit Third Column specific weapon 5th Column the combination of kills with that suit and that weapon If so, then why has the python got 353,884 kills but there are only 11,647 kills for small turrets ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1346	Posted - 2015.03.03 13:21:00 - [85] - Quote Haerr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. What are the Scout Suits K/S? 10/10! PC is SKIRMISH! Heavyes not needed nerf DPS, maybe he need to deprive excessive mobility, to prevent them from be used as a fast-moving Assaults? Please support fair play!
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1235	Posted - 2015.03.03 13:29:00 - [86] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I bet they will nerf all the assaults to fix the min assault problem as well, lol The same as they nerfed all the scouts to fix the shotgun gal scout. they could do alot just by nerfing all weapon damage by 10%. Then add 10% damage bonuses to the appropriate suits. the end result would something like this: min assault 10% bonus to light projectile weaponry min scout 10% bonus to sidearm projectile weaponry what it also means, is that racial weapons would always perform better and their intended suit. a gal assault with AR would always be better than amarr assault with AR because the gal assault would get a 10% damage bonus over the amarr. and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. now you can balance suits by intended design, because no competitive player is going to put himself at a disadvantage by using a non bonused weapon on their suit. Even though I like the idea of I use a tac-ar on a G-I scout so I already gimp myself enough. I don't need to be gimped even more and pushed to use the shotgun. Even though many THINK gal scout is shotguns they do have the hunter fitting that uses a AR and the blackeagle uses both shotgun and ar. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Faction
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7180	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:03:00 - [87] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good at sneaking, but they are no longer very good at scouting. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7181	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:18:00 - [88] - Quote ^ How does this relate to the data? Assuming this data is current (i.e. post-falloff), Scouts have the best odds of ducking GalLogi scans and getting in close enough to the heavy blob to toss REs at it or shotgun it. While I am surprised that their killcounts are so high, I suspect their kills/spawn to be relatively low when compared to that of the blob. TL;DR: Sneaky Kamikazes. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4371	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:31:00 - [89] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: ^ How does this relate to the data? Assuming this data is current (i.e. post-falloff), Scouts have the best odds of ducking GalLogi scans and getting in close enough to the heavy blob to toss REs at it or shotgun it. While I am surprised that their killcounts are so high, I suspect their kills/spawn to be relatively low when compared to that of the blob. TL;DR: Kamikazes. It's worth pointing out here that non-RE scout kills outnumber RE kills by a factor of four (at the outside; note that I didn't check past the top thirty results). While it's definitely likely that their K/S is lower than the Sentinel's, I'd wager that the Assault suit's K/S is somewhat lower still; based on the data if scouts and sentinels are to be modified in any direction they both ought to be modified downwards. It's also clear, based on their sheer quantity, that Sentinels are incredibly prevalent (and presumably strong, though strictly speaking the numbers don't state that). It would be interesting to see how many HMG-wielders there would be had Sentinels a wider variety of anti-infantry weapons available to them, with a greater spread of ranges. I'd guess, though, based on the nature of PC (being a skirmish-type match where the city points are of vast importance) that the HMG would still tend to be the most popular of any other heavy weapons we might add. Last but not least, the shotgun is (trailing at half the kills of the HMG, true) the second most prevalent weapon (in that top thirty mentions). It outstrips all four rifle classes. If the HMG is to be modified (and it definitely should be) I'd suggest keeping a close eye on shotgun performance - I expect to see it skyrocket, right behind Six Kin ACR usage. Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.
The-Errorist 1071	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:36:00 - [90] - Quote Wolfica wrote: working on a commentary for why suits/weapons are being used together. have top 10 so far only 500 more to go https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lVSresvJVfczA3DXxZ-3GtdQD2NpYjV9_-gaMKRXRAA/edit?usp=sharing (spreadsheet was copied from Leowen Dravon's post earlier in this thread) You forgot about the Amr Sent's shield resistance to rails and armor resistance to projectiles. It's able to have the best total HP and that resistance to HMGs and combat rifles makes them extremely useful. People use proto basic heavy frames with HMGs because mostly because it's a quicker SP investment and are 23k cheaper. They also have +5m scan radius and -5db better scan profile, +0.5 armor repair, plus other differences in base stats and slots. Amr basic heavy trades 1 low slot for 1 more high slot (1 more damage mod). Min basic heavy has +0.22 m/s sprint speed, +0.15 m/s movement speed, and +0.135 m/s strafe speed. shaman oga wrote: As expected AM sentinel is on top of that list. The only reason AM assault is not there is because bad framerate make scr rifle worse than an automatic weapon. Based on the data, the assaults who get the most kills in PC use mostly assault variants; what's stopping the Amarr assault from using an aSCR? Suits, Tanks, a mode

jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 155	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:37:00 - [91] - Quote Not being funny but youre looming at the data for pc maps, which 90% of time are city dominated, most the time I'm killing scouts and logis which have no health? You can't nerf a heavy solely on five maps? When there are tonnes of maps that I hate using heavy on, trying to remove shield with a hmg is hard. Nerf the range then consider dps decrease unless the hmg will turn into contact grenades... exposedsquad
John Psi Vacuum Cleaner. LLC Steel Balls Alliance 1346	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:41:00 - [92] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Based on the data, the assaults who get the most kills in PC use mostly assault variants; what's stopping the Amarr assault from using an aSCR? Based on common sense Assault - universal basic infantry unit, everything else - highly specialized classes, especially Scouts and Logi. Again: PC is SKIRMISH, Heavyes have many kills just cuz defend points. Please support fair play!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7183	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:41:00 - [93] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: ^ How does this relate to the data? Assuming this data is current (i.e. post-falloff), Scouts have the best odds of ducking GalLogi scans and getting in close enough to the heavy blob to toss REs at it or shotgun it. While I am surprised that their killcounts are so high, I suspect their kills/spawn to be relatively low when compared to that of the blob. TL;DR: Kamikazes. It's worth pointing out here that non-RE scout kills outnumber RE kills by a factor of four (at the outside; note that I didn't check past the top thirty results). While it's definitely likely that their K/S is lower than the Sentinel's, I'd wager that the Assault suit's K/S is somewhat lower still; based on the data if scouts and sentinels are to be modified in any direction they both ought to be modified downwards. It's also clear, based on their sheer quantity, that Sentinels are incredibly prevalent (and presumably strong, though strictly speaking the numbers don't state that). It would be interesting to see how many HMG-wielders there would be had Sentinels a wider variety of anti-infantry weapons available to them, with a greater spread of ranges. I'd guess, though, based on the nature of PC (being a skirmish-type match where the city points are of vast importance) that the HMG would still tend to be the most popular of any other heavy weapons we might add. Last but not least, the shotgun is (trailing at half the kills of the HMG, true) the second most prevalent weapon (in that top thirty mentions). It outstrips all four rifle classes. If the HMG is to be modified (and it definitely should be) I'd suggest keeping a close eye on shotgun performance - I expect to see it skyrocket, right behind Six Kin ACR usage. If the Heavy meta changes -- and hopefully it does soon -- it'll be interesting to see if Scout kills decline alongside Heavy kills. If they do, this would be a strong indication that they were being used out of necessity. The only other explanation I can think of is that competitive play is perma-scanned at 21dB, which is forcing slayers from their Assault suits into GA and CA Scout suits. I imagine slayers would prefer to be running Assault. That's what everyone's running in Ambush. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4372	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:42:00 - [94] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Based on the data, the assaults who get the most kills in PC use mostly assault variants; what's stopping the Amarr assault from using an aSCR? Nothing, except that Amarr Assault would be better off using an ACR than an AScR; the weapon is trash. Without the stopping power of the ScR, laser profile means you need to deal what, 1700 damage to kill a tanked Sentinel? And he's got a repper on him while you struggle, so that 1400 armour damage you have to deal with just got harder to break. Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 896	Posted - 2015.03.03 14:57:00 - [95] - Quote voidfaction wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I bet they will nerf all the assaults to fix the min assault problem as well, lol The same as they nerfed all the scouts to fix the shotgun gal scout. they could do alot just by nerfing all weapon damage by 10%. Then add 10% damage bonuses to the appropriate suits. the end result would something like this: min assault 10% bonus to light projectile weaponry min scout 10% bonus to sidearm projectile weaponry what it also means, is that racial weapons would always perform better and their intended suit. a gal assault with AR would always be better than amarr assault with AR because the gal assault would get a 10% damage bonus over the amarr. and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. now you can balance suits by intended design, because no competitive player is going to put himself at a disadvantage by using a non bonused weapon on their suit. Even though I like the idea I use a tac-ar on a G-I scout so I already gimp myself enough. I don't need to be gimped even more and pushed to use the shotgun. Even though many THINK gal scout is shotguns they do have the hunter fitting that uses a AR and the blackeagle uses both shotgun and ar. no need to be so literal with it. it was only an idea lol. there are ways for addressing issues like that. particularly for races that lack weapons within certain classes. gal only has one sidearm for instance so you could specifically bonus shotguns and ar on a gal scout if it worked out to be intended
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:04:00 - [96] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. Sounds good. The main question I have is if you can pull the suits that died the most to HMGs. BTW - I am an analyst as well. I bet the consensus will be that this is Heavy on Heavy/Logi death. The problem is that 10-12 guys go to the inside city for the big fight and 4-5 guys try to cap the outside plus one in ADS (Python). If the heavy spam is the issue, then the best solution is to make more outside point maps. Heavies can't fight out in the open, rifles take them apart. The CQC combat required to hold a point makes a heavy the best choice and with 2 in city and 2 out, holding the city is a race for the more secure win. This is the meta. Check out League of Legends and see that they have pushed hard to support their meta. I would not recommend that because it alienates some players. My advice on balancing out heavies in PC - When we start getting value for holding districts, give more value to the open maps which are not prone to heavies, the bridge map is a good example, same as the table top map. This isn't a heavy QQ, I run the burst HMG and over heat that thing all the time. I take my risk with my reward. I am surprised that cal heavy isn't higher though because I would want that next to me over a gal for speed and self charging. The other funny thing is with all the sniper nerfs, now they aren't on this chart at all. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 822	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:06:00 - [97] - Quote Its no surprise that sentinels/heavys get the most kills simply because they do what they are intended for and that is face to face combat. Nerfing reptools wont achieve anything cause you will just see a huge influx of Caldari sentinels due to their self efficency in HP regen. A Cal sentinel with 4 complex damage mods is probs the most brutal DPS king in the whole game. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
ReGnYuM State of Purgatory General Tso's Alliance 3515	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:11:00 - [98] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If the HMG hits a certain range/damage threshold, the competitive players in PC will move directly to shotguns. Worst post in a long time... Shotgun performance is heavily based on the speed and agility of the suit, more then range or damage. You're far more likely to see Heavies switch to rifles before shotguns
Lorhak Gannarsein Nos Nothi 4374	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:13:00 - [99] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I'll point out that the problem isn't the sentinels - get a bricked Sentinel ak.0 by himself and he's meat - slow, big hitbox, poor regen. Put him with a Logistics mk.0 and suddenly he's capable of eating you right up. And all your friends. Guys, we need to stop calling MU a 'matchmaker' when it's actually a 'teambuilder'. And I want to play FE:A now. Damn.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1015	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:14:00 - [100] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Cat Merc wrote: >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >Finds one in 28th place >Looks at the weapon >Sees that it's a rail rifle >Head desk Well if the Caldari Assault actually got a bonus worth using.... Same goes for the Gal Assault, the bonus is too poor for them to care about losing it. I hope they take this in consideration when looking at the MinASS. Other assaults don't appeal as much due to their bonus except amarr but the ScR isn't ideal to deal with the heavy spam where the MinASS with cr does pretty well against them. I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7453	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:15:00 - [101] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If the HMG hits a certain range/damage threshold, the competitive players in PC will move directly to shotguns. Worst post in a long time... Shotgun performance is heavily based on the speed and agility of the suit, more then range or damage. You're far more likely to see Heavies switch to rifles before shotguns Done it before. Put two kincats on an amarr or galsent and you can efficiently ambush and butcher almost anything in CQC. AV
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 1362	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:18:00 - [102] - Quote I can tell this data is old because none of my Min Logi Mk.0 Republic Freedom Specialist Mass Driver kills from 2015 are listed. It could be up to the first part of January, since I've only been PCing again since mid January. I think I am the only Logi left that uses this combo... Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7184	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:20:00 - [103] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor. I suspect a simpler explanation: A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:22:00 - [104] - Quote Rattati- "Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me..." Prolly cause of the slot layouts. Basic frames never got slot count and layout changes the specialized suits did... Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:24:00 - [105] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor. I suspect a simpler explanation: A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both. I agree speed is to high but don't want the suite nerfed into the ground either!!! Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7184	Posted - 2015.03.03 15:42:00 - [106] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor. I suspect a simpler explanation: A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both. I agree speed is to high but don't want the suite nerfed into the ground either!!! Here was a nice thread that showed the MinASS was dispaportionatly faster then other assault suits. Will try to find it at lunch Here are the numbers. All Scouts are 0.2 m/s removed between tiers. All Assaults are 0.2 m/s removed between tiers. Excluding MN Assault, which is 0.3 m/s removed (and is faster than AM Scout). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8903	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:18:00 - [107] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. An entire year later you finally touch the DPS Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
LOOKMOM NOHANDS Warpoint Sharx 72	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:25:00 - [108] - Quote Ratatti, Can you tell us what factors you are analyzing on out side of the numbers them self? There are just so many factors coming into play here that we really should get a little more insight to the actual process. Some of these things may include. analyzing based on logi versus heavy concentration to eliminate outlying data when several logis are present when looking at kills versus suit how do injectors fall into that ratio shotgun kill proximity to the objective (aka was this an easy kill by someone camping around the corner waiting to shoot you in the back) RE kill proximity to the letter (aka did someone forget to flux) what were most of the suits killed by X weapon These are all I can think of for now. My point is just that there are so many real world scenarios that numbers do not show that we need to be able to both point out situations to you that may b getting overlooked and understand your thought process a little bit better. I am not asking for data dumps of those cases just know that they are being considered and that they are being considered in the right quantity. Some examples of questions that the raw numbers would not answer: Is the Min Assault getting most of its kills when flanking and killing logis? Are shotgun kills mainly in the back while someone is hacking? Are REs mostly from letters that were not cleared before hacking? Are heavies really getting all of their kills when sitting very close to the letter? (Would naturally inflate the numbers due to a high volume of enemies moving to them at various times) There are tons more questions I want to ask because the data really gives no information on that but I will leave it there. Lets just all get close to the same page to make sure the discussion is as productive as possible.
Meee One Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki 1555	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:26:00 - [109] - Quote My suggestion? Add a shield rep tool. Then see how the numbers add up. P.S. A 20m SG is a terrible idea,and sounds like it was given by a scout who can't be bothered to sneak up on a repping logi. Official Blueberry of the Forums. Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7184	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:32:00 - [110] - Quote Meee One wrote: P.S. A 20m SG is a terrible idea . I don't know where this came from, but I agree. A Shotgun w/ 20m optimal would be a very bad idea. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8903	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:34:00 - [111] - Quote So, just singled out some information with my own spreadsheet and decided to take a look at this from a different light. Bear in mind this is raw values from the last three columns and does not sub-divide the data by other things. Caldari/Gallente could be higher due to vehicles, for instance. 1) Races by popularity 2) Suit Type Popularity 3) Top 10 Weapon Popularity 4) Rifle Popularity Top 10 Assault combinations (italics indicate a 'pure' choice, with racial dropsuit and racial weapon. This is because Assaults give a specialized bonus to their weapon type.): MinmatarAssault Combat Rifle Caldari Assault Rail Rifle Amarr Scrambler Rifle MinmatarCombat Rifle Gallente Assault Rail Rifle MinmatarShotgun Gallente Assault Rifle Gallente Breach Assault Rifle MinmatarCore Locus Grenade MinmatarShotgun A few fun facts that can be derived: - In weapon popularity, Remote Explosives are more popular than Assault Rifles (lol!) - Submachine guns are more popular than -any other rifle- besides Combat Rifles/Assault Combat Rifles. - Bolt Pistols and Flaylock Pistols came up the same number of times (10 each). Ion Pistol only came up once. - If you combine Heavy Machine Guns and Shotguns, they came up 124 times, versus -ALL RIFLES COMBINED- with 163 occurrences. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:49:00 - [112] - Quote The major problem is going to be how the community responds to dropping the dmg on HMGs. As a heavy in most PCs, I agree that our next weapon will be the shotgun and ACR. We may even switch to commandos if we need two CQC weapons. The biggest problem will be that heavies will start to have a real hard time fighting each other and with the HMG being bad at range it will get horrible at range. CCP - Take all the guns TTK and ranges and find a place for the HMG. You should be able to do that with spread sheets. We will also see more min assaults mixed in for the city if this changes. Sorry, they are effective, no complaining about that please. Time to dust mine off. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9729	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:51:00 - [113] - Quote Aeon, you put Gallente Assault Rail as pure. As much as I'd love for that to be true....nah. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
M Zwei Nyain San 42	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:52:00 - [114] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. one idea: would the HMG receive an ability to hurt vehicle, with the laser rifle mechanic : focusing and continuous fire build up damage, but not hit & run.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7184	Posted - 2015.03.03 16:54:00 - [115] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: The biggest problem will be that heavies will start to have a real hard time fighting each other and with the HMG being bad at range it will get horrible at range. If it becomes a real problem, we could nerf Heavy HP :P (jokes) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:09:00 - [116] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone. But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed. In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read. Why? Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?" Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial? Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place. Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters. Why? The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:" There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms). So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? +10 Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:16:00 - [117] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Let's be clear about one thing even though my posts might on the surface smell of "dont nerf my (insert stupid thing here). I am all for fixing sentinels. I am all for making HMGs not be instapop deathvomit. I am not, however, a fan of balancing methods which have, time and time again, proven either inineffectual or utterly neutering. The whole "reduce HMG range/damage" have been done over and over again. And every single time within three patch cycles, someone gets it in their head that reverting those changes will provide a balanced fix. This pendulum has been swung far too many times for me to have any faith in it's ability to solve the core issues with the gun. It's time to rethink how the gun works entirely. +1 Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3389	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:35:00 - [118] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. I wanna know what PCs you're playing in -- because in the ones I'm playing in virtually every night, nothing could be further from the truth....and the data posted above confirms this as the truth more broadly in PC.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7461	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:38:00 - [119] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. I wanna know what PCs you're playing in -- because in the ones I'm playing in virtually every night, nothing could be further from the truth....and the data posted above confirms this as the truth more broadly in PC. scout vs fat meta byplay is starting to define pubs as much as it does in PC. whatever is abused in PC will creep into pubs over the course of three months AV
The-Errorist 1072	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:54:00 - [120] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. Suits, Tanks, a mode

DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 899	Posted - 2015.03.03 17:56:00 - [121] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. Please don't. I know your suggestion is intended well but this will have serious consequences in the AV side. The kind that mean more vehicle rebalancing than we already have to do. I see your point. We could exclude av from that though to maintain balance with av against vehicles
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7461	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:00:00 - [122] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%. Please don't. I know your suggestion is intended well but this will have serious consequences in the AV side. The kind that mean more vehicle rebalancing than we already have to do. I see your point. We could exclude av from that though to maintain balance with av against vehicles There's a lot of work that needs to be done. AV
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 149	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:03:00 - [123] - Quote I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... Prima Gallicus diplomat Eve 21 day Trial
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7461	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:04:00 - [124] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? AV
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8907	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:24:00 - [125] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Aeon, you put Gallente Assault Rail as pure. As much as I'd love for that to be true....nah. No, I didn't. Items -in- italics are 'pure'. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22439	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:33:00 - [126] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. At last! screaming and applause Gallente Guide
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8907	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:38:00 - [127] - Quote See, my thing is, why is the Gallente Assault using an Assault Rail Rifle, a weapon it doesn't provide a specialized bonus toward, more often than an Assault Rifle, which it does. At first I thought, "Well maybe players just prefer armor over shields" but that's not the case as the Caldari Assault is more popular with the same weapon. Armor is great in Pubs but speed and damage output is where it's at in PC. That fact is further established by the popularity of the Minmatar Assault. So, my thinking is that the Assault Rail Rifle is good enough on it's own to go without warrant of a specialized bonus, so much so that it's actually worth -more- than using a typical Assault Rifle on the Gallente Assault, despite the implications of a bonus. It occurs more than the Assault Rifle, as well. Personally, I think it's just coming down to the fact that Range is worth more than raw DPS. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7463	Posted - 2015.03.03 18:43:00 - [128] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Personally, I think it's just coming down to the fact that Range is worth more than raw DPS. on anything but a 100% CQC combat your statement is absolutely correct. Any weapon that retains utility in the widest range of applications will always be the go-to choice for any game. Especially when the DPS advantage of the gallente rifles do not approach the advantage of the CR/RR range advantage. DPS doesn't mean anything if you can't apply said DPS. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7191	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:04:00 - [129] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. 1. Hmmm. May specific numbers will help: Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m. Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m. To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half. 2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions. If you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely engaged in combat with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more interplay and counterplay among different unit types. 3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they've replaced the weakened Recon Scout. Passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play is perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much just like an Ambush match against Nyain San. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 149	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:07:00 - [130] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? I don't say HMG don't need some changes, I just say that the remotes are as much efficient, but they remain untouched by CCP... Prima Gallicus diplomat Eve 21 day Trial

Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:11:00 - [131] - Quote I'd like to see an HMG dps and range nerf with a proportionate heat build up reduction so non-amarr sentinels can can actually brawl with the amarr sentinel. Of course the gal scout is 2nd becuase the only scans in PC are gal logi scans, and the gal scout is the only scout that can get under most scans without being completely gimped therefore it is the best counter to the amarr heavy + logi spam with the use of shotguns and REs.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:19:00 - [132] - Quote Part of the problem I've sen in balancing attempts that I hope to avoid here is: X weapon and/or suite is being favored because of Y advantage. Nerf X to be balanced (but people are still skilled into X and are familure with it so the continue to us the now balanced weapon and/or suite) Nerf X more to make it subpar to force people to look for the next FOTM Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
The-Errorist 1074	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:22:00 - [133] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: stuff Thank you being clear in post #129 and bring up specific numbers. Suits, Tanks, a mode
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7467	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:37:00 - [134] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: stuff Thank you being clear in post #129 and bring up specific numbers. Also, this needs to be mentioned: Range amps are now crap and have no value to any suit. On a Cal scout, a complex range amp only adds 5m to medium and 6m to long range. range amps should have been made a flat 15m extension. AV
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22442	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:40:00 - [135] - Quote The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. Gallente Guide
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7192	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:48:00 - [136] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without the Rattati's intervention and Range Amp nerf. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7467	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:52:00 - [137] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without the Rattati's intervention and Range Amp nerf. Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered them useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix them if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. If we wanted to, that is; I seem recall being told that "OP Wallhacks" were OP. If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete. AV
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1011	Posted - 2015.03.03 19:58:00 - [138] - Quote To be quite honest, I'm not very sure whether reducing HMG range is the correct solution to the problem that HMGs are very popular at close range. Problem: Everyone uses the HMG for the CQC fights that happen a lot in PCs. Solution: Reduce HMG range. What to do about that? I'm not sure. One option would be to have more maps that have three objectives outside the outpost. That'd probably fix it. The alternative would be to turn the HMG into the short-to-medium weapon it was supposed to be. That means down with the DPS but up with the range. Do this until other options dominate CQC. This won't fix the fact that PC fights pretty much appear to happen at less than 30m range.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7195	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:02:00 - [139] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete. Not necessarily. For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed. Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. Which is kinda crappy in my book, not to mention imbalanced; in my opinion, a Low Slot module shouldn't confer a free pass against Backstabs. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 161	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:08:00 - [140] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor. I suspect a simpler explanation: A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both. + ewar-falloff also give them an advantage. They can see a SG or NK who sneak up behind them, give then an option to sprint away to grain a distance to turn back to fight. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7469	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:23:00 - [141] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete. Not necessarily. For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed. Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. This would be kinda crappy and broken, in my book at least. For this reason, I think we should fix inner scan rings at a set value, then pursue extending middle / outer scan rings with Range Amps. All assuming, of course, we want to return range amps and longer range passive scans to play. I was talking solely range amp nerf. I have no issue with the inner ring AV
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 162	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:25:00 - [142] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? I don't say HMG don't need some changes, I just say that the remotes are as much efficient, but they remain untouched by CCP... Please study some history, so you won't embarrass yourself. The RE got nerf every literater. Start from prevent detonate during bleeding, increase detonate time, dmg progress, add bandwidth an so on.... Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Big miku Nation of Miku 461	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:32:00 - [143] - Quote I still don't understand how the heavy with HMG excelling at its intended role is bad. Tell us CCP devs, what do you want the heavy to be? If heavy spam is such a problem, just increase the number of clones a heavy counts for.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7200	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:38:00 - [144] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete. Not necessarily. For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed. Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. This would be kinda crappy and broken, in my book at least. For this reason, I think we should fix inner scan rings at a set value, then pursue extending middle / outer scan rings with Range Amps. All assuming, of course, we want to return range amps and longer range passive scans to play. I was talking solely range amp nerf. I have no issue with the inner ring Right. Fewer words: Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 162	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:46:00 - [145] - Quote Big miku wrote: I still don't understand how the heavy with HMG excelling at its intended role is bad. Tell us CCP devs, what do you want the heavy to be? If heavy spam is such a problem, just increase the number of clones a heavy counts for. "THE NUMBER IS TOO DAMN HIGH!" If it exceed only 10-15% They won't worry about it. But right now, it is exceed 30% and still growth. Ask yourself, what is a reason to have suit and weapon various if all user select to run only heavy? Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7469	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:52:00 - [146] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete. Not necessarily. For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed. Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. This would be kinda crappy and broken, in my book at least. For this reason, I think we should fix inner scan rings at a set value, then pursue extending middle / outer scan rings with Range Amps. All assuming, of course, we want to return range amps and longer range passive scans to play. I was talking solely range amp nerf. I have no issue with the inner ring Right. Will retry with fewer words: Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Stronger Scout Passives = "OP Wallhacks" Opinion. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:52:00 - [147] - Quote RedPencil wrote: "THE NUMBER IS TOO DAMN HIGH!"[/b] If it exceed only 10-15% They won't worry about it. But right now, it is exceed 30% and still growth. Ask yourself, what is a reason to have suit and weapon various if all user select to run only heavy? Everyone don't run heavy though, the fact is heavies were meant for cqc, so they Excell at it. Heavy+Logi combo is a powerful force. What next? Complain about sniper rifles ruling ultra long range combat? What do You want the heavy you to be?
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7469	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:55:00 - [148] - Quote Big miku wrote: the fact is heavies were meant for cqc, this is an arbitrary statement. it's also a statement that has become highly problematic. The HMG sentinel is too powerful in CQC and because of this, marginalizes non-scouts, which excel at murdering sentinels. And I've stated on numerous occasions what the heavies should be. AV and area denial. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7201	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:57:00 - [149] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Right. Will retry with fewer words: Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Stronger Scout Passives = "OP Wallhacks" Opinion. Yes, the first is my opinion. The second is Zatara's. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 20:59:00 - [150] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: this is an arbitrary statement. it's also a statement that has become highly problematic. The HMG sentinel is too powerful in CQC and because of this, marginalizes non-scouts, which excel at murdering sentinels. And I've stated on numerous occasions what the heavies should be. AV and area denial. Why on earth would people spec into a suit mentioned for that when swarms, Mass drivers and plasma cannons are light weapons?

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7469	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:01:00 - [151] - Quote Big miku wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: this is an arbitrary statement. it's also a statement that has become highly problematic. The HMG sentinel is too powerful in CQC and because of this, marginalizes non-scouts, which excel at murdering sentinels. And I've stated on numerous occasions what the heavies should be. AV and area denial. Why on earth would people spec into a suit mentioned for that when swarms, Mass drivers and plasma cannons are light weapons? laser rifles are area denial. Mass drivers and PLCs are breach tools. they suck at suppressing enemies. AV
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 164	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:16:00 - [152] - Quote Big miku wrote: RedPencil wrote: "THE NUMBER IS TOO DAMN HIGH!"[/b] If it exceed only 10-15% They won't worry about it. But right now, it is exceed 30% and still growth. Ask yourself, what is a reason to have suit and weapon various if all user select to run only heavy? Everyone don't run heavy though, the fact is heavies were meant for cqc, so they Excell at it. Heavy+Logi combo is a powerful force. What next? Complain about sniper rifles ruling ultra long range combat? What do You want the heavy you to be? First, sarcastic about sniper rifles is nonsense. They already force out from the redline. Second, heavy was a joke before 1.8 but now it totally opposite, and it growth way too far. Sometime people just need to study history before embarrass themselves Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:23:00 - [153] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifles are area denial. Mass drivers and PLCs are breach tools. they suck at suppressing enemies. You seem to misunderstand what Are denial Weapons are. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon You also need to reread the Mass Driver Weapon description. You want the Heavy, to be shoe horned into a role you think it is meant to be. You should also reread the Sentinel description.
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:26:00 - [154] - Quote RedPencil wrote: First, sarcastic about sniper rifles is nonsense. They already force out from the redline. Second, heavy was a joke before 1.8 but now it totally opposite, and it growth way too far. Sometime people just need to study history before embarrass themselves First, Redline Sniping is alive and well Second, I've been rolling heavy since with was first introduced, I remember the HMG being Effective out to 60m when Skilled into Heavy Weapon Sharpshooter. The HMG was only a Joke ONCE, and that was at the start of Uprising when the nerfed its damage to about 13 at the Proto Level, which was quickly fixed after massive out cry. Maybe you should go back thought the forums and study yourself.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7471	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:27:00 - [155] - Quote A machinegun is areea denial. Don't lecture me based on a wiki article when I did that professionally IRL. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:30:00 - [156] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: A machinegun is areea denial. Don't lecture me based on a wiki article when I did that professionally IRL. A machine gun fits the loosest terms of area denial within military academia but if you are using the logic, then the HMG does a magnificent job at denying Areas. Once again, reread those weapon descriptions.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7471	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:38:00 - [157] - Quote Big miku wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: A machinegun is areea denial. Don't lecture me based on a wiki article when I did that professionally IRL. A machine gun fits the loosest terms of area denial within military academia but if you are using the logic, then the HMG does a magnificent job at denying Areas. Once again, reread those weapon descriptions. I have, the descriptions aren't in the same reality with how the weapons actually perform. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7207	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:40:00 - [158] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I have, the descriptions aren't in the same reality with how the weapons actually perform. Yo quiero homing missiles for this flaylock, por favor. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:45:00 - [159] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I have, the descriptions aren't in the same reality with how the weapons actually perform. So you're saying the fact the the mass driver expressly says it is a Breaching and Area Denying Weapon don't matter cause you don't want it too? Or that the HMG is meant to murder things to death and back? The Heavy is dust operates just like the Heavy in TF2 which is fine.
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:46:00 - [160] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: My Flaylock wants some homing missiles, por favor. Now that would cause an out roar, but in a way Titanfall pulled it off perfectly with the Smart Pistol MK5, doubt CCP could do it.

Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 639	Posted - 2015.03.03 21:48:00 - [161] - Quote I'm worried, because in pubs it really feels like assaults are the most powerful suits. Not by much, I'm not crying for nerfs. I'm just worried that nerfs to heavies or scouts would be wrong, and that the issues with PC are more complex than they seem. I think the simplest solution to heavies being overused in PC, would be to include more open maps. How about some with no large sockets, or where only one objective was in a large socket? Heavies and scouts excel in close quarters, assaults are superior in more open areas. I think nerfing either would be the wrong solution. Atleast, I worry about the hmg. It has to be a fair bit more powerful than a rifle or it doesn't make sense as a heavy weapon. If heavies need a nerf perhap their defence needs reducing. But again, with hit box and speed taken into consideration, they have to be more survivable in a straight up fight than an assault. Currently their weakness is range, a problem they don't have to deal with in PC. Perhaps it's PC that needs a change, not the suits in it.
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 164	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:03:00 - [162] - Quote Big miku wrote: RedPencil wrote: First, sarcastic about sniper rifles is nonsense. They already force out from the redline. Second, heavy was a joke before 1.8 but now it totally opposite, and it growth way too far. Sometime people just need to study history before embarrass themselves First, Redline Sniping is alive and well Second, I've been rolling heavy since with was first introduced, I remember the HMG being Effective out to 60m when Skilled into Heavy Weapon Sharpshooter. The HMG was only a Joke ONCE, and that was at the start of Uprising when the nerfed its damage to about 13 at the Proto Level, which was quickly fixed after massive out cry. Maybe you should go back thought the forums and study yourself. - Redline sniping is alway there and will continue be there but the number and the effective was toned down. Same goal apply to heavy. - If you really have been rolling heavy since with was first introduced,since beta, you would experienced a grumpy slow turn and not so high EHP and no one scare even though the heavy was designed to be the tough and strong. AR or even SCR the was later introduce can chew through Amarr heavy as easy as chew banana The actual experience is a prove, not a word on a board. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1014	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:04:00 - [163] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Atleast, I worry about the hmg. It has to be a fair bit more powerful than a rifle or it doesn't make sense as a heavy weapon. If heavies need a nerf perhap their defence needs reducing. There is an important truth here. The basic gist is that we're looking at heavies killing infantry. There is only one heavy anti-infantry weapon. Thus the numbers we're looking at are a mixture of the effect of the HMG and the sentinel suits. It isn't immediately possible to say which of these two factors is to blame. If the big upside of a heavy suit is being able to wield a heavy weapon - and using one should be preferable to a light weapon - then we can keep the HMG as powerful as it is as long as the heavy suit has enough disadvantages to keep it in balance. The important point here is that the "product" - in the mathematical sense - of the heavy suit and weapon has to exceed a certain threshold of power with the constraint that the usefulness of the HMG must be better than that of a light weapon, if we don't want sentinels to run around with ARs again.
Big miku Nation of Miku 462	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:09:00 - [164] - Quote RedPencil wrote: - Redline sniping is alway there and will continue be there but the number and the effective was toned down. Same goal apply to heavy. - If you really have been rolling heavy since with was first introduced,since beta, you would experienced a grumpy slow turn and not so high EHP and no one scare even though the heavy was designed to be the tough and strong. AR or even SCR the was later introduce can chew through Amarr heavy as easy as chew banana The actual experience is a prove, not a word on a board. Forgive me, I am not insulting you at all, but I am having a hard time understanding what you are saying. I think I get the gist of it, but am not sure.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 639	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:09:00 - [165] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: I think the simplest solution to heavies being overused in PC, would be to include more open maps. How about some with no large sockets, or where only one objective was in a large socket? Having said that, open areas should really be the domain of tanks and dropships. So maybe assaults should be closer in power to the heavy-logi combo in large sockets. I guess we could see how nerfing hmg range and dps works, and put it back if it breaks things. Perhaps look at sharing the nerf burden by nerfing heavy defence aswell (less dps nerf). The reason I'm not onboard with long range, lower dps hmgs, like I believe Breakin Stuff advocates, is that I don't see the distinction between that and a rifle. Though I'm probably missing some subtleties of his proposal. I still think open PC maps would be fun though. Imagine if we had vehicle focused maps (especially considering the upcoming tank stuff), long range infantry focused maps, and CQC focused maps. The variety would be fun. Instead of always cramming all combat types into all PCs and ending up with mostly heavies v heavies.
Big miku Nation of Miku 463	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:11:00 - [166] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: The important point here is that the "product" - in the mathematical sense - of the heavy suit and weapon has to exceed a certain threshold of power with the constraint that the usefulness of the HMG must be better than that of a light weapon, if we don't want sentinels to run around with ARs again. The issue cannot be narrowed down to one thing. It is a number of aspects. We have CQC points in nearly ever map, heavy+logi is powerful, choke points all over the place. Of course CCP will do the easiest thing and nerf instead of making better maps.
Big miku Nation of Miku 463	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:13:00 - [167] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: [quote=Varoth Drac]I guess we could see how nerfing hmg range and dps works, and put it back if it breaks things. Perhaps look at sharing the nerf burden by nerfing heavy defence aswell (less dps nerf).. They did a DPS nerf back at the start of Upraising when the Proto HMG had its damage reduced to about 13, it did not work out well at all and heavies with HMGs vanished from PC. Hopefully the incoming nerf is not that extream.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8202	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:18:00 - [168] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ... for a recent time period. Can you provide us with the specific time frame polled? If this data spans the last 6 months, for example, it may still reflect old trends. Still interested in the answer to this question. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 639	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:21:00 - [169] - Quote Big miku wrote: Hopefully the incoming nerf is not that extream. I also hope not, heavies were a joke. I guess it's balance. Tweaking the power down a bit might be all that's needed.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1015	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:25:00 - [170] - Quote Big miku wrote: Stefan Stahl wrote: The important point here is that the "product" - in the mathematical sense - of the heavy suit and weapon has to exceed a certain threshold of power with the constraint that the usefulness of the HMG must be better than that of a light weapon, if we don't want sentinels to run around with ARs again. The issue cannot be narrowed down to one thing. It is a number of aspects. We have CQC points in nearly ever map, heavy+logi is powerful, choke points all over the place. Of course CCP will do the easiest thing and nerf instead of making better maps. I fully agree that having more maps with a majority of the objectives outside of the outposts would probably change those numbers a lot. However I also agree that it's probably not going to happen in the mid-term, thus the limited scope of the analysis above.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7472	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:32:00 - [171] - Quote Big miku wrote: So you're saying the fact the the mass driver expressly says it is a Breaching and Area Denying Weapon don't matter cause you don't want it too? what I want is irrelevant. the weapons do not actually succeed at DOING the function they are DESCRIBED as HAVING. they do something entirely different from the fluff. they do not perform their stated mission in said fluff very well at all. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7472	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:32:00 - [172] - Quote Oops, I appear to have dropped a spreadsheet on this post. Have a look. Feel free to cry. Bear in mind DPS numbers assume zero-loss DPS from dispersion in all cases. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 464	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:37:00 - [173] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: what I want is irrelevant. the weapons do not actually succeed at DOING the function they are DESCRIBED as HAVING. they do something entirely different from the fluff. they do not perform their stated mission in said fluff very well at all. So you're saying tha Mass Driver is not good at Area Denial and the HMG is not good at man murder? Because they are.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7472	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:39:00 - [174] - Quote Big miku wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: what I want is irrelevant. the weapons do not actually succeed at DOING the function they are DESCRIBED as HAVING. they do something entirely different from the fluff. they do not perform their stated mission in said fluff very well at all. So you're saying tha Mass Driver is not good at Area Denial and the HMG is not good at man murder? Because they are. oh for... DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ??? Start here. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 464	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:41:00 - [175] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: oh for... DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ??? Start here. Now you're just being childish. So you deny that the Mass driver and HMG fit their Fluff and gameplay role and turn in to a kid.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17436	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:42:00 - [176] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Big miku wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: what I want is irrelevant. the weapons do not actually succeed at DOING the function they are DESCRIBED as HAVING. they do something entirely different from the fluff. they do not perform their stated mission in said fluff very well at all. So you're saying tha Mass Driver is not good at Area Denial and the HMG is not good at man murder? Because they are. oh for... DO YOU KNOW HOW TO READ??? Start here. I'M READING! "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2271	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:44:00 - [177] - Quote Meee One wrote: My suggestion? Add a shield rep tool. Then see how the numbers add up. P.S. A 20m SG is a terrible idea,and sounds like it was given by a scout who can't be bothered to sneak up on a repping logi. What makes a 20m shotgun such a bad idea? Remember that this accompanies the weapon getting a much lowered alpha - no longer being an 'instant death' weapon and in fact even if it kept the same high it has now, players would be far more able to break line of attack. To me this would make a shotgun actually feel like a shotgun, not these pathetic things that we have in games that cant shoot beyond 3 **ing meters. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.** I have a few alts.
Big miku Nation of Miku 464	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:44:00 - [178] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I'M READING! READING RAINBOW!
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17436	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:44:00 - [179] - Quote Big miku wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: laser rifles are area denial. Mass drivers and PLCs are breach tools. they suck at suppressing enemies. You seem to misunderstand what Are denial Weapons are. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_denial_weapon You also need to reread the Mass Driver Weapon description. You want the Heavy, to be shoe horned into a role you think it is meant to be. You should also reread the Sentinel description. Neither do you apparently or you'd know the Laser Rifle can and have done since Chromosome lock down entire sections of certain maps and kill anything that moves through it. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2271	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:47:00 - [180] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Oops, I appear to have dropped a spreadsheet on this post. Have a look. Feel free to cry. Bear in mind DPS numbers assume zero-loss DPS from dispersion in all cases. Why are shield damage numbers higher than neutral damage numbers on the proposed example? Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7472	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:49:00 - [181] - Quote MINA Longstrike wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Oops, I appear to have dropped a spreadsheet on this post. Have a look. Feel free to cry. Bear in mind DPS numbers assume zero-loss DPS from dispersion in all cases. Why are shield damage numbers higher than neutral damage numbers on the proposed example? Because I'm an idiot and applied 0.9 multiplier rather than 0.85 each one of these assumes triple mod, max skills. Basically worst-case scenario for anyone facing them AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 464	Posted - 2015.03.03 22:56:00 - [182] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Neither do you apparently or you'd know the Laser Rifle can and have done since Chromosome lock down entire sections of certain maps and kill anything that moves through it. So can a mass Driver, area denying weapons are explosives in nature in these modern times. Which the Mass Drive expressly is. A laser on the pipes don't change the nature of what an area denial weapon is.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 639	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:05:00 - [183] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Oops, I appear to have dropped a spreadsheet on this post. Have a look. Feel free to cry. Bear in mind DPS numbers assume zero-loss DPS from dispersion in all cases. Thinking about it, I quite like the idea. I don't see why it would have to replace the current hmg, you could just introduce it as a tactical hmg. Then you could safely nerf the current hmg, and maybe heavy defence a bit, safe in the knowledge that heavies also have a long range anti infantry option. Assaults having the ability to compete in built up area combat wouldn't be unfair on heavies, as heavies would have a long range option as well. Another issue is uplinks. They give heavies a method of getting round their mobility disadvantage, perhaps they could be nerfed? Then the heavies inability to attack objectives easilly, combined with being locked into cqc combat or ranged combat, would be a real disadvantage in PC to balance out their superior combat capability. Assaults would be best at attack, sentinels would be best at defence, as it should be (imo).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7477	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:28:00 - [184] - Quote Not defense necessarily. Suppressing/supporting fire AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 466	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:45:00 - [185] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: [Then you could safely nerf the current hmg, and maybe heavy defence a bit, safe in the knowledge that heavies also have a long range anti infantry option. Assaults having the ability to compete in built up area combat wouldn't be unfair on heavies, as heavies would have a long range option as well. And then what is to stop Heavies with Logis Attached from running amok and still donmating CQC Attacking? The Heavy is not assaulting tor defending those points with out support..
STYLIE77 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 449	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:45:00 - [186] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: To reply to rattati and the others who brought up valid points about heavies, K/S, reps, and logis. I agree that heavy CQC dominance needs to be adressed. I dont think nerfing the HMG is the way to go about it. Its been modified in several hotfixes, and this hasn't stopped it from being a dominant CQC killer. After all, CQC is their role, even if you nerf the HMG to 20m range, it will still devastate anybody who gets close. CQC in PC being the way it is, those fights are not happening at 40-50m out, they are happening in and around letters at 20m or less, where the most vicious fights take place. In CQC between the shotgun scouts, remotes, and the heavys, theres very little room for the assaults to fit in. The minmatar assault is one of the few that can stick and move with the scouts which IMO explains its rise, and the Viziam Scrambler can charge single shot most scouts, can also explain why its use is disproportionatley higher in PC compared to the Pubs. Another poster here brought up the point, that if its not the HMG, it will be bricked sentinels with the same logis on their butts, using the hardest hitting light weapons. I ask any members of the hardcore PC community whether you see more heavy spam on the wide open maps or in the closed in city socket maps. Only two PCs that i have been in were in open maps, thats where dropships/scouts were dominant. Compared to normal skirm, heavies sit on points there as well, but most of the fighting occurs in between points trying to cut off marauding bands of scouts and assaults. Domination is point defense heavy heaven. Ambush on open maps heavies get eaten alive. In CQC maps, they eat everybody else alive. You make a lot of sense, sounds to me like others want the Heavy role to be nerfed. If CCP is talking a balance pass fine... but the issue here isn't the suits... it is the MAPS. 2 or 3 points in a city socket... assault rifles time to kill is too long so what is being used? HMG, Shotgun, Remote Explosives, and Combat Rifle... Combat rifles are working due to players finishing off the armor of wounded players. Armor Reppers work despite taking damage, shields stop repping when damage is taken. Therefore, PC is dominated by Armor Stacking and Weapons that are effective vs Armor. More maps like the Communications that is Replacing the Gal Lag Facility would change what weapons and suits are being used considerably. We have an issue of mainly 2 maps being used in PC, the suits and weapons are those that work well in those environments. Nerf the Heavy and the Scouts will be spammed in their place. Min Assaults are being used as pseudo scouts, nerf those and the Cal Scouts and Cal Assaults will take their place. Even if Heavies were Removed entirely, people would just build assault suits with shotguns and combat rifles or go with more scouts. The gameplay will remain, it will just be different suits doing the same thing... POINT DEFENSE http://caughtyouflinching.ytmnd.com/
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1236	Posted - 2015.03.03 23:51:00 - [187] - Quote Lorhak Gannarsein wrote: voidfaction wrote: Its funny they are going to nerf the weapon and not the to armor sentinels. I'll point out that the problem isn't the sentinels - get a bricked Sentinel ak.0 by himself and he's meat - slow, big hitbox, poor regen. Put him with a Logistics mk.0 and suddenly he's capable of eating you right up. And all your friends. You just made my point. The shield sentinels are not doing so good because they are not as good with a logi. If you nerf the HMG then you are also nerfing the shield tankers that are not doing so good. They done this with scouts. Nerfed all scouts to combat the gal scout shotguners. guess what the gal scout is still the best scout. The HMG is all the Sentinels really have vs infantry so nefing it is a nerf to ALL sentinels not just the ones that are over performing. I hate sentinels so nefing them all is fine with me. But would prefer a nerf that targets the over performing combo not the entire class. Just as I wanted gal scout nerf over full class nerfs to combat the gal shotgun FOTM and I am and always will run a gal scout as long as it is the stealth class scout. Same as I hope they nerf the min assault vs all assaults to combat the rise in min assaults. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Faction
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5179	Posted - 2015.03.04 00:20:00 - [188] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Have you considered that the HMG is simply in massive usage due to the fact that PC map design heavily favors it because every PC battle is a cargo hub where they are the strongest? Heavies on, say, a production facility, typically get wrecked because they are being peppered from everywhere in the open and can't fire back. As far as pub data would go, its another simple reason. Most people play Domination, where a bunch of people are typically concentrated in one area around a single objective. That is the definition of HMG heaven. So it seems to me that the weapon itself isn't problematic. Rather, your maps and your overall design around them is problematic. It also doesn't help that current game mechanics allow the fatmen to spawn right next to the action, where again they are strongest. Extreme force projection for a unit who's largest downside is a lack of mobility is simply a bad game design choice. It wasn't your choice, of course, but there it is. Gimp the HMG any further however, and you're going to have a suit that only does as much appliable damage as one of the rifles but with no mobility, crippled scans, no ability to chase down an enemy, can't be used to really damage enemies behind partial cover unlike rifles, etc etc etc. Overall, it'll be just a bad weapon. Imo, you need to revamp force projection. Then you're going to find fewer people willing to use the heavy suit as they would actually have to move through exposed areas at a slow pace before they get to be effective. Ditch uplinks from the game, force people to use mobile CRU's. Put some actual tactical play back into the game rather than make it super-whack-a-mole with the uplinks. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Hellsatano Academy Inferno E-R-A 521	Posted - 2015.03.04 00:23:00 - [189] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando. disagree. i have 2 guys running amarr comando with massdriver. check your data Protostomper Twich Youtube
Grand Master Kubo PIanet Express Smart Deploy 339	Posted - 2015.03.04 00:44:00 - [190] - Quote We need more access to data like this. I would really like to know how many kills I got personally with various suits and weapons in PC. I'm fairly certain that a large proportion of those Gallente commando plasma cannon kills and Gallente scout Ion pistol kills are mine. I heard that in EVE, players have access to mountains of data and that this is a reason why people like it. Dust players need acces to more stats!

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17442	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:07:00 - [191] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone. But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed. In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read. Why? Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?" Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial? Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place. Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters. Why? The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:" There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms). So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? A question I also want answered. Historically and at the same time logically you don't create a heavily armoured unit with massive ordinance and force it into confined conditions. Units like this typically excel as Breaking has said in open field positions, or in defensible position in overwatch. An overwatching unit is one that has taken a position where it can clearly see the terrain ahead and around it to provide clear lines of fire. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 375	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:24:00 - [192] - Quote So everyonr armor stacking ftw Shield suits only used because of hit detection / hit box issues No surprises. Shields are still garbage.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8908	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:26:00 - [193] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Have you considered that the HMG is simply in massive usage due to the fact that PC map design heavily favors it because every PC battle is a cargo hub where they are the strongest? Heavies on, say, a production facility, typically get wrecked because they are being peppered from everywhere in the open and can't fire back. As far as pub data would go, its another simple reason. Most people play Domination, where a bunch of people are typically concentrated in one area around a single objective. That is the definition of HMG heaven. So it seems to me that the weapon itself isn't problematic. Rather, your maps and your overall design around them is problematic. It also doesn't help that current game mechanics allow the fatmen to spawn right next to the action, where again they are strongest. Extreme force projection for a unit who's largest downside is a lack of mobility is simply a bad game design choice. It wasn't your choice, of course, but there it is. Gimp the HMG any further however, and you're going to have a suit that only does as much appliable damage as one of the rifles but with no mobility, crippled scans, no ability to chase down an enemy, can't be used to really damage enemies behind partial cover unlike rifles, etc etc etc. Overall, it'll be just a bad weapon. Imo, you need to revamp force projection. Then you're going to find fewer people willing to use the heavy suit as they would actually have to move through exposed areas at a slow pace before they get to be effective. Ditch uplinks from the game, force people to use mobile CRU's. Put some actual tactical play back into the game rather than make it super-whack-a-mole with the uplinks. You would be one to say that the HMG "isn't problematic" despite being shown glaring evidence that it is... Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7217	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:31:00 - [194] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Have you considered that the HMG is simply in massive usage due to the fact that PC map design heavily favors it because every PC battle is a cargo hub where they are the strongest? As far as pub data would go, its another simple reason. Most people play Domination ... So it seems to me that the weapon itself isn't problematic. "possibility" "possibility" "bedrock conclusion" Your argument lacks foundation. Have you considered the possibility that the HMG might actually be OP? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8909	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:36:00 - [195] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without Rattati's intervention. Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered the module useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix Range Amps if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. That is, if we wanted to ... I distinctly recall being told that "360 Wallhacks" were OP. I love this "we" versus "them" thing you got going, Adipem. It really comes off as ostracizing, like the "we" you refer to is somehow better than Cat Merc and Zatara, especially when you say "if their proposal had passed without Rattati's intervention". It's cheeky, to say the least. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the "we" in this case paints a pretty sure-fire picture of a collective of individuals who are pressing their own particular agenda, because that's kinda what it comes off as. Take a second to set aside whatever arbitrary barrier "you guys" threw up to segregate yourselves and remember that this is still a community and all of our voices are responsible for any changes that happen in this game, please. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7217	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:39:00 - [196] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without Rattati's intervention. Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered the module useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix Range Amps if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. That is, if we wanted to ... I distinctly recall being told that "360 Wallhacks" were OP. I love this "we" versus "them" thing you got going, Adipem. It really comes off as ostracizing, like the "we" you refer to is somehow better than Cat Merc and Zatara, especially when you say "if their proposal had passed without Rattati's intervention". It's cheeky, to say the least. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the "we" in this case paints a pretty sure-fire picture of a collective of individuals who are pressing their own particular agenda, because that's kinda what it comes off as. Take a second to set aside whatever arbitrary barrier "you guys" threw up to segregate yourselves and remember that this is still a community and all of our voices are responsible for any changes that happen in this game, please. By "we" above, I mean the collective "we" as in all of us. If "we" as in Community+Rattati want to restore passive scans ... And yes, I'm calling out Cat Merc and Zatara for being dead wrong. I called them out at the time, and I'll call them out the next time they're wrong. Whether or not you find that "cheeky" matters very little to me. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Big miku Nation of Miku 469	Posted - 2015.03.04 01:40:00 - [197] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: You would be one to say that the HMG "isn't problematic" despite being shown glaring evidence that it is... Actually, there is no evidence proving that the HMG is the sole factor. It has been stated. Heavies With Logi Bros are powerful, As they should be. There is only one Heavy weapon meant for AI. Until there is another option to weigh against the HMG needs to remain where it is. You cannot take away from the Heavy+HMG combo to make it less offensive with out gimping its defensiveness. People just want to Jam a heavy into a mold and force it to do only that, again look at the heavy in TF2, a much better and balanced game, you get down to it, the Heavy in TF2 is used exactly like our heavy minus the AV, but some Dust players refuse to adapt.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17811	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:50:00 - [198] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon. Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels" And put more objectives in the relative open. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17811	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:52:00 - [199] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ... for a recent time period. Can you provide us with the specific time frame polled? If this data spans the last 6 months, for example, it may still reflect old trends. Still interested in the answer to this question. It's from the day before and then some. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Big miku Nation of Miku 469	Posted - 2015.03.04 02:54:00 - [200] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place Oh is that it? Well it has a place, that place being under the Superior Combat Rifle and Rail Rifle. Also, "Heavy" Blaster when?


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17813	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:00:00 - [201] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone. But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed. In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read. Why? Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?" Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial? Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place. Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters. Why? The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:" There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms). So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? A question I also want answered. Historically and at the same time logically you don't create a heavily armoured unit with massive ordinance and force it into confined conditions. Units like this typically excel as Breaking has said in open field positions, or in defensible position in overwatch. An overwatching unit is one that has taken a position where it can clearly see the terrain ahead and around it to provide clear lines of fire. Moreover having trawled through the thread I never found an answer to Sgt Kirk's outrage either. Why are you converting the Assault HMG into an AV autocannon? You know full well we already have a disproportionate number of Anti Armour AV forms and you want to add more? I don't answer outrages or indignant anger. To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Big miku Nation of Miku 470	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:10:00 - [202] - Quote True Adamance wrote: A question I also want answered. Historically and at the same time logically you don't create a heavily armoured unit with massive ordinance and force it into confined conditions. Units like this typically excel as Breaking has said in open field positions, or in defensible position in overwatch. Actually Historically speaking Heavy Armored Soldiers Trump Lightly armored Soldiers in CQC, but lighter armored people can skirmish harder. Heavy Personal Armor came about due to close quarters combat after all.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8214	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:27:00 - [203] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: ... for a recent time period. Can you provide us with the specific time frame polled? If this data spans the last 6 months, for example, it may still reflect old trends. Still interested in the answer to this question. It's from the day before and then some. Thank you. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17447	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:30:00 - [204] - Quote Big miku wrote: True Adamance wrote: A question I also want answered. Historically and at the same time logically you don't create a heavily armoured unit with massive ordinance and force it into confined conditions. Units like this typically excel as Breaking has said in open field positions, or in defensible position in overwatch. Actually Historically speaking Heavy Armored Soldiers Trump Lightly armored Soldiers in CQC, but lighter armored people can skirmish harder. Heavy Personal Armor came about due to close quarters combat after all. I'm thinking more modern military....y'know guns and the like. You don't put massive fire power in the hands of a slow moving unit then force said unit into urban warfare. What you did do was put that unit in the best available cover and have them rake enemy advances with gunfire. Machine-guns are most effective in areas where there is little or no cover for an enemy force to exploit whereas smaller and more compact weapons are useful in urban combat zones. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2525	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:40:00 - [205] - Quote Pagl1u M wrote: jade gamester wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. This sentinel-meta has been the exact same since 1.8, it is about ******* time you do something to Fix it. This is not about avoid choosing the sub-optimal choice in PC, this is about "spam as many heavy as we can" (where heavy means sentinels.) I love CCP Rattati and everything but I cant stand these sentinels being so ez game But pag heavy spam is only reliable on two points :/ it's easy to deal with outside if that makes sense This reminds me of a conversation I had with Sota pop. He said the same thing you just said and I asked:"So what am I, as an assault, supposed to do in a PC match? " his answer was" stay outside of the city or camp roofs". This is BS to me! An assault is supposed to be assaulting points, not only outsider points. Jade you are a great PC sentinel, tell everyone here, what is the main force used to assault points in the city in any PC: assaults or sentinels? Sentinels role should be to defend points but they ve been since 1.8 also the greatest pushing resource for every team. But why are we even talking? Just take a look at the numbers! Remember when we did the Assault suit rework that wasn't? All that happened was an ehp buff. We never did turn assault suits into assault suits, and now they're a minority in PC(game engine exploitation aside) - big surprise to anyone here? Along with the basic frame rework, it's an important job left undone. Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Maybe the ehp buff was a stopgap measure to restore some viability to assaults. I certainly hope that's the case. PSN: RationalSpark
Big miku Nation of Miku 472	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:41:00 - [206] - Quote True Adamance wrote: I'm thinking more modern military....y'know guns and the like. You don't put massive fire power in the hands of a slow moving unit then force said unit into urban warfare. What you did do was put that unit in the best available cover and have them rake enemy advances with gunfire. Machine-guns are most effective in areas where there is little or no cover for an enemy force to exploit whereas smaller and more compact weapons are useful in urban combat zones. That is what we did, During Vitamin the US would use M48s and M60s in urban environments, these tanks were small compared to the MBT of today but we would trounce them in hot urban environments with infantry support to provide Firepower and wall busting to take out entrenched snipers and machine guns nest. You telling me if we had a man sized heavily armored suit of Powered Armour armed with a LMG we'd not use it for Urban Fighting in buildings and out of? A Man Sized Tank that can move faster than normal men while holding normal weaponry would not be used for breach and clear? The US Navy and Marines think otherwise. Whoops not the M60 but the M103, I can't recall if any M60s were fielded in Vietnam other than bridgers and recavs.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7219	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:42:00 - [207] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Was it once or twice that he tried tuning Heat to reign in the HMG? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1238	Posted - 2015.03.04 03:45:00 - [208] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Was it once or twice that he tried tuning Heat to reign in the HMG? I thought it was 3 times noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Faction
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17449	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:04:00 - [209] - Quote Big miku wrote: True Adamance wrote: I'm thinking more modern military....y'know guns and the like. You don't put massive fire power in the hands of a slow moving unit then force said unit into urban warfare. What you did do was put that unit in the best available cover and have them rake enemy advances with gunfire. Machine-guns are most effective in areas where there is little or no cover for an enemy force to exploit whereas smaller and more compact weapons are useful in urban combat zones. That is what we did, During Vitamin the US would use M48s and M60s in urban environments, these tanks were small compared to the MBT of today but we would trounce them in hot urban environments with infantry support to provide Firepower and wall busting to take out entrenched snipers and machine guns nest. You telling me if we had a man sized heavily armored suit of Powered Armour armed with a LMG we'd not use it for Urban Fighting in buildings and out of? A Man Sized Tank that can move faster than normal men while holding normal weaponry would not be used for breach and clear? The US Navy and Marines think otherwise. Whoops not the M60 but the M103, I can't recall if any M60s were fielded in Vietnam other than bridgers and recavs. It comes down to the simple ideal that when you put a great deal of armour plating and a powerful large calibre weapon on a frame that frame slows down. Knight's invading castles would find it difficult to fight adequately in narrow corridors. Calvary would suffer when funnelled into streets to be surrounded by more agile infantry. Tanks suffer in urban environments as well vulnerable when unable to turn its main gun on enemies, from alley ways, from above. I'd suggest that it's equally likely when you stack very dense armour plating (25mm thickness) and an under slung machine gun that functions in the manner it does, with the design that it has mobility would be impaired especially when entering into tight urban environments. Consequently the benefit of that lessened mobility is that you gain that protection and capacity to carry more potent weaponry. Also to note of the M103 bears many hall mark traits of an open country tank. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Vrain Matari Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 2526	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:12:00 - [210] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Was it once or twice that he tried tuning Heat to reign in the HMG? That's a good case in point, heat being a soft dps limit. Heavies are pretty much what they should be, imo. Access to shared scans makes them very powerful and tends to negate the mobility advantage of lighter suits. The assault needs a suite of skills that allow it to press heavies but not overwhelm them. Those skills should not involve ehp or dps, but it's really a separate conversation. Only bringing it up here because the state of the assault suit makes it largely incapable of assaulting heavy-entrenched points. The game needs a way to do this without relying on OHK weapons. The assault suit should be the answer. Short-to-mid term advantage should go to the heavies, but as the fight drags out advantage should switch to the assaults by virtue of being able to apply sustained, adaptable pressure. PSN: RationalSpark

Foehammerr Dead Man's Game RUST415 156	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:17:00 - [211] - Quote My two cents on the various subjects brought up as a response to PC meta and popularity of various suits: I believe Sentinels need to have rotation speed return to them when using the Heavy Machine Gun and the Amarr heavy weapon.This solves a lot of the problem with sentinels in CQB. to counteract this, the Heavy Machine Gun and whatever the Amarr heavy weapon is going to be ( im assuming its going to be anti-personnel as the Heavy blaster is intended to be AT) need to have their proficiencies changed from damage bonus to rotation speed bonus, much like vehicle turrets. STYLIE77 wrote: Armor Reppers work despite taking damage, shields stop repping when damage is taken. Therefore, PC is dominated by Armor Stacking and Weapons that are effective vs Armor. This needs to be addressed even if not fully on topic. Theres this misconception that Armor repair modules always work where as shields stop after every nudge. While the latter statement holds true to a degree, the former is not. Repair tools/modules work under the notion that they are effective because they can repair faster then the attacking force can take damage. however this is never the case in any practical sense for infantry in DUST. Every single weapon available has a higher dps/alpha than hp a repair tool or combination of mods can offer. in order to effectively tank a militia sub machine gun, you would need to be using a prototype Gallente Logistics suit, five complex armor repair modules, one level five minmatar logi with a Core Focused repair tool, and at least two Caldari logi augmented Wyrkomi Triage Nanohives. this is before bonus to armor effectiveness, damage mods, and headshots. Not only that, but all armor repair except for the rep tool is cyclical, not persistent. Even when used with a sentinels resistance bonuses, repair tools act more like hardeners than actual rep tools because of how easy it is to take massive amounts damage. To solve the issues of armor and shield tanking, I propose this: Shield -Shield transfer tool (this one is a given) -Shields are persistent like repair tools -Shields repair at a percentage, rather than a flat amount the only problem with this is how shield regulators would fit into this -Armor repair modules receive a 100% increase in efficacy -Repair tools receive a 25-50% efficacy increase even with this increase it would not be enough to counter kinetic or rail weaponry, but would make active armor tanking for infantry a little more viable. active shield tanking wouldn't work for infantry because it relies on mechanics that don't work on this level like it would for vehicles or In EVE, which is why I didn't mention it besides the shield tool. Also, to Rattati: Why add EM swarm launchers and AV grenades rather than improving the Plasma Cannon and adding the heavy blaster weapon? I Understand missiles and grenades can have different damage types, but still. *Rangers Lead The Way!* Beta Vet since 2/5/2013
Big miku Nation of Miku 472	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:19:00 - [212] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Consequently the benefit of that lessened mobility is that you gain that protection and capacity to carry more potent weaponry. Also to note of the M103 bears many hall mark traits of an open country tank. I understand where you're coming from, but as tech advances, powered armor is coming closer and closer to a reality, When the burden of heavy armor is relived by artificial means or lighter materials , it'll find its way in to Indoor fighting. Forces in modern warfare are quit armored even in Rom by Room combat and they are armed with Rifles and usually a few shot guns, which are equally unwieldy. Only Urban Officers, who are also quite protected by various body armors, have the time to pick out the nice and compact SMGs. LMGs have been used indoors quite often in the Various Wars in the Middle East and many troops pay or jirry rig additional Armor plates into their kit. Only special forces and Civilian Officers have to worry about moving and clearing buildings quickly and are afforded the luxury of choosing weapons that are compact and less cumbersome. Again, when we are able to make a man sized tank, even a fat man like the Heavy Suit, We will start using them in all forms of combat and we will give it weapons that normal men can not handle.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4646	Posted - 2015.03.04 04:45:00 - [213] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17822	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:11:00 - [214] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? yes, not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 2274	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:16:00 - [215] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? yes, not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey No! no its not! Every race in eve makes their own missiles. Caldari make pure kinetic damage ones, Gallente make pure thermal ones, Amarr pure em and minmatar pure explosive! Generally the caldari and the minmatar are the only ships that pack actual missile bonuses, but there's a very very robust line of khanid assault / heavy assault ships that use short range missile technology (rockets & heavy assault missiles & potentially even torpedos) with bonuses (though not specifically to EM damage). Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 326	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:38:00 - [216] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? yes, not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey Hybrid, I'd hate for anti shield swarms to decimate shields even more. Molestia approved
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7479	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:51:00 - [217] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon. Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels" And put more objectives in the relative open. Your logic is sound and I agree with it. I do not agree with the method. It has been done four times before and was an unmitigated disaster each time. I would MUCH rather have the DPS sharply nerfed and the range pushed out. I'd like to see the dispersion reduced because wide dispersion helps in CQC. There was no more difficult time in CQC than when the HMG got buggered up and it had laser beam dispersion. The other frustration I have had is there's a lot of us proposing ways to nerf and change the weapon just so the range nerf could be avoided. Not the damage nerf. The HMG has entirely too much DPS. But the range is the absolute drop-dead "please do not do this" for the vast majority of us who want to work with you to keep the stupid gun functional but not OP. we would like alternative options please. the linked spreadsheet is one example. But this came off as rather like the ADS: like we are percieved as not trying to give active alternatives to the way only a few people claim is working as intended. AV

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17822	Posted - 2015.03.04 05:55:00 - [218] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon. Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels" And put more objectives in the relative open. Your logic is sound and I agree with it. I do not agree with the method. It has been done four times before and was an unmitigated disaster each time. I would MUCH rather have the DPS sharply nerfed and the range pushed out. I'd like to see the dispersion reduced because wide dispersion helps in CQC. There was no more difficult time in CQC than when the HMG got buggered up and it had laser beam dispersion. The other frustration I have had is there's a lot of us proposing ways to nerf and change the weapon just so the range nerf could be avoided. Not the damage nerf. The HMG has entirely too much DPS. But the range is the absolute drop-dead "please do not do this" for the vast majority of us who want to work with you to keep the stupid gun functional but not OP. we would like alternative options please. the linked spreadsheet is one example. But this came off as rather like the ADS: like we are percieved as not trying to give active alternatives to the way only a few people claim is working as intended. why can't we have both, the lower dps, short range hmg and use the burst as the one you are describing, tighter, longer stream, and assault is what we have talked about? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7479	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:06:00 - [219] - Quote Your burst HMG , as I have said in multiple places, is amazing. I die more to overheat than enemy brilliance. That is exactly how, in my opinion, a CQC heavy weapon should interact. Ithe standard HMG needs an overhaul. Let's be clear. I do not want this meta preserved even though I GREATLY benefit from it. It's the one I want the DPS dropped SHARPLY. My opinion on the assault HMG idea depends on two factors: Will it be viable for fighting HAVs? What you want the average TTK on an HAV Main Battle Tank to be when fought by a solo gunner. Assume perfect conditions but no backshot. I want to shoot for 13-16 seconds if the stars align given identical tiers. Versus an armor tank. I honestly don't care HOW the heavy AV parity is achieved. Im perfectly cool with your idea. If you wanna slap a laser beam on a scrambler pistol and call it an antitank gun I'm cool. My ONLY objection is making the standard HMG even more CQC. This has always proven in ththe past to end badly and result in a mass swap to light weapons. AV
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 213	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:23:00 - [220] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? yes, not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey Could be Mjolnir Warheads like what are used in space, they do only EM damage (which is also what Amarr Drones do) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal

Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:24:00 - [221] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... The amarr heavy frame is used because players that are skilled into the sentinel role can easily skill into the frame and get the 2nd high slot for forge gunning, the minmatar basic heavy frame has a better strafe and sprint speed than the minmatar sentinel and can actually brawl with sentinels since the minmatar sentinels resistances are irrelevant in sentinel vs sentinel situations anyway.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7479	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:24:00 - [222] - Quote I need to know the above parameters so I can give accurate feedback. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7479	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:27:00 - [223] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... The amarr heavy frame is used because players that are skilled into the sentinel role can easily skill into the frame and get the 2nd high slot for forge gunning, the minmatar basic heavy frame has a better strafe and sprint speed than the minmatar sentinel and can actually brawl with sentinels sincethe minmatar sentinels resistances are irrelevant in sentinel vs sentinel situations anyway. There are only what, three effective builds for the minsent for fighting other sentinels. All of them involve hot racking shields, rechargers and biotics. Plates and reps don't help. AV
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:32:00 - [224] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... The amarr heavy frame is used because players that are skilled into the sentinel role can easily skill into the frame and get the 2nd high slot for forge gunning, the minmatar basic heavy frame has a better strafe and sprint speed than the minmatar sentinel and can actually brawl with sentinels sincethe minmatar sentinels resistances are irrelevant in sentinel vs sentinel situations anyway. There are only what, three effective builds for the minsent for fighting other sentinels. All of them involve hot racking shields, rechargers and biotics. Plates and reps don't help. Correct
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7481	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:42:00 - [225] - Quote Back to serious note, I honestly think using the firing mechanics used by the Alex HMG is the best place to start for the boundless, MH-82 and heavy machinegun. It's fairly close to the chrome base HMG and FEELS less problematic than say the gastun. I am dead serious when I say Aim Assist is a major consideration. It matters greatly on the HMG. But I think the burst is best in CQC. It's been the first cqc hmg I consider balanced. You found the razor's edge. The boundless? I highly recommend using them as a sustained suppression weapon. Get the sentinels out of CQC where they can be fought better. Tight dispersion makes it much harder to hit a fast target in CQC. If the dispersion is tight then "run at the heavy" will be the primary victim in close. Until I know your design parameters for the assault AV anything I say will be a pure asspull based on supposition. I suck at reading minds. AV
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:46:00 - [226] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Back to serious note, I honestly think using the firing mechanics used by the Alex HMG is the best place to start for the boundless, MH-82 and heavy machinegun. noo Alex's HMG = officer breach HMG
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7481	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:49:00 - [227] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Back to serious note, I honestly think using the firing mechanics used by the Alex HMG is the best place to start for the boundless, MH-82 and heavy machinegun. noo Alex's HMG = officer breach HMG Let's fix the core gun before we try to make new variants. AV
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:51:00 - [228] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Back to serious note, I honestly think using the firing mechanics used by the Alex HMG is the best place to start for the boundless, MH-82 and heavy machinegun. noo Alex's HMG = officer breach HMG Let's fix the core gun before we try to make new variants. you're going to have the gastun's and alex's being redundant if the same firing mechanics are used. Just saying.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7481	Posted - 2015.03.04 06:57:00 - [229] - Quote I never said anything about changing the gastun. That one can have the damage per round dropped and the range pushed out for slightly higher DPS in exchange for eating the ammo much faster. AV
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 399	Posted - 2015.03.04 07:04:00 - [230] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I never said anything about changing the gastun. That one can have the damage per round dropped and the range pushed out for slightly higher DPS in exchange for eating the ammo much faster. Do you mean RoF pushed up for higher DPS?

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7481	Posted - 2015.03.04 07:07:00 - [231] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I never said anything about changing the gastun. That one can have the damage per round dropped and the range pushed out for slightly higher DPS in exchange for eating the ammo much faster. Do you mean RoF pushed up for higher DPS? No. I mean higher DPS than the reduced boundless. The current HMGs are in no uncertain terms broken given the conditions of the game. Also the higher you push the rate of fire, the worse hit detection seems to get. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7483	Posted - 2015.03.04 09:44:00 - [232] - Quote I'm trying to figure out if giving the burst range is a bad idea like rattati suggested. I'm really torn. I'm intrigued and apprehensive which is why I'm having difficulty commenting constructively. My immediate thought was instead of rebalancing all three it would be easier to just do the basic model and the assault. Given a choice though, for the boundless Between less damage and less range or a fairly sharp reduction in damage, same range? I will opt for the sharp reduction in damage. AV
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5180	Posted - 2015.03.04 09:47:00 - [233] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Have you considered that the HMG is simply in massive usage due to the fact that PC map design heavily favors it because every PC battle is a cargo hub where they are the strongest? Heavies on, say, a production facility, typically get wrecked because they are being peppered from everywhere in the open and can't fire back. As far as pub data would go, its another simple reason. Most people play Domination, where a bunch of people are typically concentrated in one area around a single objective. That is the definition of HMG heaven. So it seems to me that the weapon itself isn't problematic. Rather, your maps and your overall design around them is problematic. It also doesn't help that current game mechanics allow the fatmen to spawn right next to the action, where again they are strongest. Extreme force projection for a unit who's largest downside is a lack of mobility is simply a bad game design choice. It wasn't your choice, of course, but there it is. Gimp the HMG any further however, and you're going to have a suit that only does as much appliable damage as one of the rifles but with no mobility, crippled scans, no ability to chase down an enemy, can't be used to really damage enemies behind partial cover unlike rifles, etc etc etc. Overall, it'll be just a bad weapon. Imo, you need to revamp force projection. Then you're going to find fewer people willing to use the heavy suit as they would actually have to move through exposed areas at a slow pace before they get to be effective. Ditch uplinks from the game, force people to use mobile CRU's. Put some actual tactical play back into the game rather than make it super-whack-a-mole with the uplinks. You would be one to say that the HMG "isn't problematic" despite being shown glaring evidence that it is... And none of that evidence countered anything I just said. Therefore that evidence isn't highly relevant. Gota look at the entire puzzle and not just one piece like you guys are doing. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7485	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:18:00 - [234] - Quote Under the circumstances in which the game exists the HMG is overpowered. Not "well maps." Not "well you need to HTFU." The balance that exists NOW matters. Balance "maybe in the future" is only a concern when relevant changes are imminent. There is no IMMINENT danger of a dozen zero-cqc maps opening up, so the map rotation in the here and now isn't going to balance the sentinel HMG combo. Besides K4dert no one bi*ches about the sentinel/forge combo unless they're tower camping and out of reach. That's a map problem. The fact that the HMG tears apart an entire racial weapon line In that entire racial weapon line's optimal range. With no recourse. This is an imbalance. Saying that only maps are a factor when the HMG rendering gallente CQC killers pointless there is a problem. The gun performs universally well on all heavy suits. Light infantry weapons cannot say the same. In CQC there are no drawbacks to deploying an HMG sentinel. It is always the optimal choice. This is TEXTBOOK imbalance. This meta needs to be killed with fire. AV
duster 35000 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 326	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:28:00 - [235] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Under the circumstances in which the game exists the HMG is overpowered. Not "well maps." Not "well you need to HTFU." The balance that exists NOW matters. Balance "maybe in the future" is only a concern when relevant changes are imminent. There is no IMMINENT danger of a dozen zero-cqc maps opening up, so the map rotation in the here and now isn't going to balance the sentinel HMG combo. Besides K4dert no one bi*ches about the sentinel/forge combo unless they're tower camping and out of reach. That's a map problem. The fact that the HMG tears apart an entire racial weapon line In that entire racial weapon line's optimal range. With no recourse. This is an imbalance. Saying that only maps are a factor when the HMG rendering gallente CQC killers pointless there is a problem. The gun performs universally well on all heavy suits. Light infantry weapons cannot say the same. In CQC there are no drawbacks to deploying an HMG sentinel. It is always the optimal choice. This is TEXTBOOK imbalance. This meta needs to be killed with fire. No it doesn't need to be killed by fire. It needs to be killed with balefire. Molestia approved
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 159	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:52:00 - [236] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: jade gamester wrote: Pagl1u M wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. This sentinel-meta has been the exact same since 1.8, it is about ******* time you do something to Fix it. This is not about avoid choosing the sub-optimal choice in PC, this is about "spam as many heavy as we can" (where heavy means sentinels.) I love CCP Rattati and everything but I cant stand these sentinels being so ez game But pag heavy spam is only reliable on two points :/ it's easy to deal with outside if that makes sense This reminds me of a conversation I had with Sota pop. He said the same thing you just said and I asked:"So what am I, as an assault, supposed to do in a PC match? " his answer was" stay outside of the city or camp roofs". This is BS to me! An assault is supposed to be assaulting points, not only outsider points. Jade you are a great PC sentinel, tell everyone here, what is the main force used to assault points in the city in any PC: assaults or sentinels? Sentinels role should be to defend points but they ve been since 1.8 also the greatest pushing resource for every team. But why are we even talking? Just take a look at the numbers! Remember when we did the Assault suit rework that wasn't? All that happened was an ehp buff. We never did turn assault suits into assault suits, and now they're a minority in PC(game engine exploitation aside) - big surprise to anyone here? Along with the basic frame rework, it's an important job left undone. Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Maybe the ehp buff was a stopgap measure to restore some viability to assaults. I certainly hope that's the case. if a point is needed to be taken im sent in pc, ill agree, there are issues I feel main issue, gal assaults and amar are useless in cqc the gal assault because as you see most kills in pc is the amar sentinel armour guys that means the ar is at disadvantage. im a min sentinel in pc. ill always play that role. its inbetween assault and heavy. hmg is insane however against shield its terrible, which it should be, this argument can be said about the scrambler rifle, it massacres shield aswell as armour, but because of heat build up its apparently balanced? a scrambler on a amar assault can kill a min sentinel faster then a hmg can excluding the sixkin. you want to balance hmgs that's cool but if you decrease damage and range at least give us the ability of suppression by giving better heat build up like original. just remember if you nerf the hmg you nerf it against shield, be very careful you could remove sentinels for good orrrrrrr youll see a lot more heavies with light weapons fun fun fun exposedsquad
Big miku Nation of Miku 476	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:55:00 - [237] - Quote The HMG is THE ONLY CHOICE, for every Sentinel that wants to do CQC, what they are meant for. You cannot nerf the HMGs CQC, nothing will ever stop it from being used up close, you nerf the Basic and people will just use the SKB, which even now is just as good as the others. You reduce its range and damage too much and, like at the start of upraising, Heavies will just switch to Rifles, Combat Rifles to be exact. I forgot, you want the Heavy "out of CQC" and forced into some arbitrary role. Agaan, what is going to stop Heavies from having logis glued to them a pushing points? The balance has always been the Heavies lack of Speed, lack of passive scans, lack of slot variety, lack of equipment, and the need of Logistical support to be effective.
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 159	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:57:00 - [238] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... The amarr heavy frame is used because players that are skilled into the sentinel role can easily skill into the frame and get the 2nd high slot for forge gunning, the minmatar basic heavy frame has a better strafe and sprint speed than the minmatar sentinel and can actually brawl with sentinels since the minmatar sentinels' resistances are irrelevant in sentinel vs sentinel situations anyway. a proud proto min heavy frame, in my view the best of heavy frames but yeah whats the point of a shield resistance with scramblers I don't even see it exposedsquad
jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 159	Posted - 2015.03.04 10:59:00 - [239] - Quote Big miku wrote: The HMG is THE ONLY CHOICE, for every Sentinel that wants to do CQC, what they are meant for. You cannot nerf the HMGs CQC, nothing will ever stop it from being used up close, you nerf the Basic and people will just use the SKB, which even now is just as good as the others. You reduce its range and damage too much and, like at the start of upraising, Heavies will just switch to Rifles, Combat Rifles to be exact. I forgot, you want the Heavy "out of CQC" and forced into some arbitrary role. Agaan, what is going to stop Heavies from having logis glued to them a pushing points? The balance has always been the Heavies lack of Speed, lack of passive scans, lack of slot variety, lack of equipment, and the need of Logistical support to be effective. its one of those moments really... " omg all these heavies with hmgs" oh wait that's there oonly weapon unless they forge which they cant because ccp nerfed splash lmao exposedsquad
Big miku Nation of Miku 476	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:04:00 - [240] - Quote jade gamester wrote: its one of those moments really... " omg all these heavies with hmgs" oh wait that's there oonly weapon unless they forge which they cant because ccp nerfed splash lmao He mentioned how the HMG, a Heavy Weapon, is encroaching on the Blaster Rifles, a light weapon, Turf as being a concern. So this my be a ploy to get Sentinels to switch to Blaster Rifles. I've seen though his plot, nope, combat rilfe all day.

jade gamester Dead Man's Game RUST415 159	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:11:00 - [241] - Quote Big miku wrote: jade gamester wrote: its one of those moments really... " omg all these heavies with hmgs" oh wait that's there oonly weapon unless they forge which they cant because ccp nerfed splash lmao He mentioned how the HMG, a Heavy Weapon, is encroaching on the Blaster Rifles, a light weapon, Turf as being a concern. So this my be a ploy to get Sentinels to switch to Blaster Rifles. I've seen though his plot, nope, combat rilfe all day. I mean why would you use a blaster when every uses armour mainly? so weird hahaha exposedsquad
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7487	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:18:00 - [242] - Quote Big miku wrote: jade gamester wrote: its one of those moments really... " omg all these heavies with hmgs" oh wait that's there oonly weapon unless they forge which they cant because ccp nerfed splash lmao He mentioned how the HMG, a Heavy Weapon, is encroaching on the Blaster Rifles, a light weapon, Turf as being a concern. So this my be a ploy to get Sentinels to switch to Blaster Rifles. I've seen though his plot, nope, combat rilfe all day. Oh you big bad expert, you. I run sentinel without a logi leash crutch constantly. It is not necessary. Further, Sentinels were never defined as a CQC role. That was assumed because the HMG was CQC. What the hell were you gonna do if a heavy laser comes out with 200m optimal? It'll work on infantry too. Ya gonna beat the "heavies are for CQC only drum hard then too? There has never been a developer statement that sentinels are CQC. The HMG on the other hand... but things can change and designs can be rebuilt to fit the balance needs of the game. Not some random player vision of how they think it should be. Heavies are only CQC so long as the weapons dictate such. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 477	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:27:00 - [243] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Oh you big bad expert, you. I run sentinel without a logi leash crutch constantly. It is not necessary. Further, Sentinels were never defined as a CQC role. That was assumed because the HMG was CQC. What the hell were you gonna do if a heavy laser comes out with 200m optimal? It'll work on infantry too. Ya gonna beat the "heavies are for CQC only drum hard then too? There has never been a developer statement that sentinels are CQC. The HMG on the other hand... but things can change and designs can be rebuilt to fit the balance needs of the game. Not some random player vision of how they think it should be. Heavies are only CQC so long as the weapons dictate such. There is no other heavy weapons, taking away their only weapon now, or forcing it into a "suppression" Role as in reducing its killing power to that of an Rifle will just mean a hot swap to Combat Rifles, again as in what happened at the start of Upraising. Also, How you solo play your heavy in PUBs don't matter, a majority of Heavies when defending those clustered City points don't have "logi leashes" unless they are pushing or actively defending, they do however have support from those logis in the form of Hives, Scans, and spot heals. "Not some random player vision of how they think it should be." Funny how this applies to you more so than me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7487	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:37:00 - [244] - Quote Big miku wrote: There is no other heavy weapons, taking away their only weapon now, or forcing it into a "suppression" Role as in reducing its killing power to that of an Rifle will just mean a hot swap to Combat Rifles, again as in what happened at the start of Upraising. Also, How you solo play your heavy in PUBs don't matter, a majority of Heavies when defending those clustered City points don't have "logi leashes" unless they are pushing or actively defending, they do however have support from those logis in the form of Hives, Scans, and spot heals. "Not some random player vision of how they think it should be." Funny how this applies to you more so than me. Not only have I played, but I have successfully FC'd in planetary conquest. More than once. Quit trying to pass me off as an unenlightened pubstar. Now that this is out of the way, the only benefit that the PC meta of heavies, heavies everywhere, is to point out that all other choices are poor in comparison. this is a flagrant indication that there is a problem. The meta is creeping into pubmatches as well. Assaults have no place in PC. this is NOT "working as intended." Tanks have no real utility in PC except as a distraction. This is NOT "working as intended." ADS are simply flying uplink deployment platforms. Really? Heavies are fine, when they are the ONLY active role in PC besides scouts, which are the only class of dropsuit suited to KILLING said heavies? The HMG is not "fine." The HMG is not even "all right." Trying to push that on me when I've been running HMGs since the ass end of Codex closed beta is not going to get you any traction. I have seen HMGs at overpowered and underpowered at both ends of the spectrum. I believe that a range nerf is the WRONG thing. However keeping the heavy machinegun as-is without change is bluntly A BAD THING. i really don't care if it inconveniences PC players who don't want to have to learn a new trick. In fact all your post does is make me want to do is say "Hey Rattati, I changed my mind, nerf the ever-loving Sh*t out of my gun please. I want to see the FOTM people scream and cry more than I want it to remain useful." Knock off the entitled attitude, it gets you no points with me, any more than vehicle drivers screaming that it's unfair that infantry can kill them gets traction with me. Nerf my gun, please. AV
Big miku Nation of Miku 477	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:37:00 - [245] - Quote About that "HMG stepping on the Blasters Range game" The HMG is listed at having 33m Opt and 55m Effective compared to the Blasters 50 Optimal and 78 effective. Would it be possible to see the ranges that most HMG kills take place and the ammo expenditure to acquire those kills as well as the typical life Span and K:D of those heavy in PC? Can we have more numbers.
Big miku Nation of Miku 477	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:44:00 - [246] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Words and ego You're not a PUB star, clearly a Forum Star. You say assaults and ADS have no place in PC but many people would tell you otherwise. ADS are a godsend for taking out people on those outside points and popping as well as dropping those high top uplinks. ADS can lock down a point solo and many times requires and answer. And assaults are all over PC, you make it sound as if PC is just Heavy and Logis, the numbers clearly show Assaults, Minni ones, are prevalent in PC, and what do those have? Speed, a hard counter to the HMG. Again who are you? Just some forum rat. Although I do agree with tanks being mostly distractions or ADS Removal.
Big miku Nation of Miku 477	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:47:00 - [247] - Quote No point in arguing with you, You've made it clear you want the Heavy to be "Area Denial without actual area denying weapons" and AV.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7487	Posted - 2015.03.04 11:56:00 - [248] - Quote Big miku wrote: No point in arguing with you, You've made it clear you want the Heavy to be "Area Denial without actual area denying weapons" and AV. And bluntly you're pushing keeping the current meta which is broken, which the numbers clearly show are broken, and then claiming you are being reasonable. When the numbers of HMG kills outnumber all comers by THAT WIDE a margin, then exactly in what reality is this indicating that HMGs are working in a well balanced fashion? If there's a serious place for assaults, why are the assault kill numbers so very distant behind sentinels and scouts? Do tell just how keeping sentinels in CQC is advantagious to the game in general, and not turning out to be detrimental. So far your most compelling argument has been "Sentinels are supposed to be CQC." That's not evidence, it's an assertion. AV
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3091	Posted - 2015.03.04 12:06:00 - [249] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Well then I hope you buff the Python then. Swarms already 3-shot even the best fits, and they do -20% damageGÇª Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7487	Posted - 2015.03.04 12:13:00 - [250] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Well then I hope you buff the Python then. Swarms already 3-shot even the best fits, and they do -20% damageGÇª I think the idea is to separate anti-air and antitank swarms from each other. AV

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9733	Posted - 2015.03.04 13:35:00 - [251] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Whoa, don't tell me you consider my post an outrage of anger. That's standard sarcasm that's found literally everywhere and did no think you'd find something like that as an outrage. it's lighthearted way of saying another anti armor AV weapon shouldn't be brought into this game until at least some other viable anti shield weaponry is brought in. So sorry you took that as "offensive" *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9733	Posted - 2015.03.04 13:42:00 - [252] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Well then I hope you buff the Python then. Swarms already 3-shot even the best fits, and they do -20% damageGÇª I think the idea is to separate anti-air and antitank swarms from each other. I'm really glad this is finally being taken into consideration. I've said this since closed beta and it has always fell on deaf ears or the feedback was completely negative. Also, I don't see why you'd need to buff swarms right off the bat, that's jumping the gun a bit. We don't even know how they will behave. I proposed a moderate damage, long range, high speed missile with a longer lock up time. Not as powerful as basic swarms (now the anti tank swarms?) *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7494	Posted - 2015.03.04 13:59:00 - [253] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Also, I don't see why you'd need to buff swarms Going to stop you right there. No. this thought is bad. swarms need ZERO buffing. it is not at any point being suggested. AV
Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 9733	Posted - 2015.03.04 15:00:00 - [254] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Also, I don't see why you'd need to buff swarms Going to stop you right there. No. this thought is bad. swarms need ZERO buffing. it is not at any point being suggested. Sorry I meant Pythons. If they make the current swarms anti tank and slower with the already mentioned idea for Anti air missiles is there a need to buff the python right off the bat? That's reminiscent of old CCP tactics of vehicle balance of changing too many things at once and that never went over well. *As long as 4/5 (80%) of infantry AV weapons are Anti Armor based you're never going to achieve vehicle balance CCP*
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7497	Posted - 2015.03.04 15:08:00 - [255] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Also, I don't see why you'd need to buff swarms Going to stop you right there. No. this thought is bad. swarms need ZERO buffing. it is not at any point being suggested. Sorry I meant Pythons. If they make the current swarms anti tank and slower with the already mentioned idea for Anti air missiles is there a need to buff the python right off the bat? That's reminiscent of old CCP tactics of vehicle balance of changing too many things at once and that never went over well. Pretty much on the nose. he seems to have a plan. I just wish there was more shared. Certain statements in a vacuum can be uplifting or maddening. Context is king. AV
ReGnYuM State of Purgatory General Tso's Alliance 3517	Posted - 2015.03.04 15:34:00 - [256] - Quote IMHO, I think the focus on the HMG rebalance needs to be its range. I think any PC player (or any seasoned vet) understands that if you run at a heavy full-frontal, you will lose. However, on numerous occasions I have have placed myself at reasonable distance and still I have been shredded down. The HMG's reach is just too much for the sockets we're playing in. As for the Heavies role, I am pretty sure it has been established that they're PtD (Point Defence).
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 79	Posted - 2015.03.04 16:08:00 - [257] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: IMHO, I think the focus on the HMG rebalance needs to be its range. I think any PC player (or any seasoned vet) understands that if you run at a heavy full-frontal, you will lose. However, on numerous occasions I have have placed myself at reasonable distance and still I have been shredded down. The HMG's reach is just too much for the sockets we're playing in. As for the Heavy's role, I am pretty sure it has been established that they're PD (Point Defense). I totally agree. +1 The other thing people need to consider is why a heavy is used for defense fundamentally. They are built for defense or assault over a short distance due to their speed. Think of this as American football. We have big linemen pushing each other back in forth. The play has to go around this mob or be thrown over it, but don't expect those big guys to chase down a running back in the open or catch a pass. Instead they stop plays through the obvious routes and close off areas. So the reason for this is that they can't chase, run for cover, or quick assault on a point except as slow ponderous beasts. So they are built for defense where distance is not required. CCP - If the HMG gets nerfed, what is the outcome you are really driving for? More balanced gun use in PCs? CCP - Do you want people to use less heavies for defense? That is impossible when PC is requiring specialty of role. Is the goal to have a diverse set of HMGs used by heavies. If so, please clarify this with the masses because the numbers will not change, just the gun titles. The assault and scout will have his outside points because heavies are aweful out there but the city will always be for heavies because it is CQC building to building combat. 30m max. I just want to know the long game we are going for with this. I can switch to a shotgun if that is where we are going. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8911	Posted - 2015.03.04 17:46:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)? yes, not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey Missiles in Eve Online are the only weapon system- other than Drones - that can hit every single damage type depending on which one you use. Damage TypeName EM --------------Mjolnir Explosive -----Nova Kinetic ---------Scourge Thermal -------Inferno Missile systems also usually come in long and short range models, so it's not out of the realm of disbelief that there'd be a short/long range option for each one of those damage types - although, given Dust 514's nature, could just have four: Long-range EM/Explosive, short-range EM/Explosive. Gives more of a 'rock/paper/scissors' feel anyway. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8911	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:06:00 - [259] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The fact that the HMG tears apart an entire racial weapon line In that entire racial weapon line's optimal range. With no recourse. This is an imbalance. Saying that only maps are a factor when the HMG rendering gallente CQC killers pointless there is a problem. The gun performs universally well on all heavy suits. Light infantry weapons cannot say the same. In CQC there are no drawbacks to deploying an HMG sentinel. It is always the optimal choice. This is TEXTBOOK imbalance. This meta needs to be killed with fire. Gallente CQC Killers been saying this since 1.7, no-one batted an eye until they started talking about nerfing HMG DPS/Range. Now look at the comments over the past two pages x3 Big miku wrote: The HMG is THE ONLY CHOICE, for every Sentinel that wants to do CQC, what they are meant for. You cannot nerf the HMGs CQC, nothing will ever stop it from being used up close, you nerf the Basic and people will just use the SKB, which even now is just as good as the others. You reduce its range and damage too much and, like at the start of upraising, Heavies will just switch to Rifles, Combat Rifles to be exact. I forgot, you want the Heavy "out of CQC" and forced into some arbitrary role. Agaan, what is going to stop Heavies from having logis glued to them a pushing points? The balance has always been the Heavies lack of Speed, lack of passive scans, lack of slot variety, lack of equipment, and the need of Logistical support to be effective. Okay, cool, I'll play this game one more time even though it has been -exactly a year later- that I'm having to bring up the same arguments and counter-arguments: 1) If you're right and the Sentinel + HMG is a CQC option, then why would I want to use anything else? What balance function is there to ensure that Sentinels aren't the -only- sane option in a city fight? Don't say speed/mobility, keep reading. 2) If speed and mobility is it's weakness, then why are they allowed to get in a vehicle and bugger off? Why are they even allowed to sprint if this is considered a legitimate weakness? Would -that- be too OP all of a sudden? If so, why? 3) If point defense is a primary role of the Sentinel, is personal defense (huge amounts of EHP on top of resistances) -absolutely necessary- for that role in tandem with huge amounts of DPS output? Why not one or the other? What is so bad about making a heavy rely on a Logi to have any sort of regeneration at all without having to sacrificing module slots (implying passive regen from the base suit)? It has very little to do with the maps. Yes, city gameplay does play a big part in it, but there's other factors to consider. This game revolves around four different factors when fitting: Offense (DPS/Range), Defense (EHP/Regen), Speed, and EWAR (Profile/Precision). The Sentinel has the absolute best in Offense and Defense, it's speed can be negated by circumstantial map layouts and vehicle use. Meaning it's only persistent weakness is EWAR and that's why there's so many freaggin Scouts. Scouts are the only logical counter to an HMG Sentinel because they can get into range using EWAR and use high-alpha damage weaponry (shotguns/remote explosives/nova knives) to completely forego Sentinel Defense. That meta has been like that since 1.7/1.8 and only until now is it ever going to stop because they're wanting to nerf Sentinel HMGs because they're the only thing you can use in CQC other than -extreme CQC-, where the Scouts take over. If you can provide an option for Sentinel HMGs to be balanced -AS A CQC WEAPON- without infringing on other CQC options and forcing EWAR tanking + high alpha, extreme CQC weaponry to be the only viable counter, I'll listen, but until then it's just going to have to get brought down a peg. This has been a long time coming, you guys have had this meta for an entire year and a lot of us theorized this was going to happen before it did and it went on deaf ears. Let us have our turn to figure out how to un-kitten the situation. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7233	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:41:00 - [260] - Quote I agree with the content of your message, Aeon, but the delivery struck me as a tad cheeky. Also, let's not be too hard on them for locking down the meta. As bad as Scout/Heavy 514 has been this year, it is no where near as pronounced and single-moded as the prior year of AR-514. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6067	Posted - 2015.03.04 18:44:00 - [261] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. Interesting... Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 6067	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:02:00 - [262] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Your logic is sound and I agree with it. I do not agree with the method. It has been done four times before and was an unmitigated disaster each time. I would MUCH rather have the DPS sharply nerfed and the range pushed out. I'd like to see the dispersion reduced because wide dispersion helps in CQC. There was no more difficult time in CQC than when the HMG got buggered up and it had laser beam dispersion. The other frustration I have had is there's a lot of us proposing ways to nerf and change the weapon just so the range nerf could be avoided. Not the damage nerf. The HMG has entirely too much DPS. But the range is the absolute drop-dead "please do not do this" for the vast majority of us who want to work with you to keep the stupid gun functional but not OP. we would like alternative options please. the linked spreadsheet is one example. But this came off as rather like the ADS: like we are percieved as not trying to give active alternatives to the way only a few people claim is working as intended. why can't we have both, the lower dps, short range hmg and use the burst as the one you are describing, tighter, longer stream, and assault is what we have talked about? While this makes the HMG less versatile, the Assault HMG changes might allow more versatility for the HMG Sentinel to adapt to open maps and longer ranges. It just means they can't do it all with the same fit. I am willing to see how it plays out before I pass judgement. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
PLAYSTTION Corrosive Synergy RISE of LEGION 609	Posted - 2015.03.04 20:47:00 - [263] - Quote My fix for the min assault remove one low slot. Done. Gassault Calogi and more. Respec Pending. `- Open Beta Vet - 38 mil sp - - Director of Corrosive Synergy -`
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3091	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:08:00 - [264] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships. Well then I hope you buff the Python then. Swarms already 3-shot even the best fits, and they do -20% damageGÇª I think the idea is to separate anti-air and antitank swarms from each other. Honestly I don't agree with the on several points, both for AV and vehicles. It's not fair (at least I don't see it as fair) to AV to have to need two different variants of missiles to engage both aerial and ground vehicles. Vehicles are fine like this (needing split weapons); they can easily disengage to the redline, call in another vehicle, and recall their current one. But AV infantry don't have the luxury of accessing a supply depot as easily, especially when they're set up on, say, a roof top. There's no need to increase the effectiveness of swarms agains any ADS. All ADS fits get downed in 3-4 shots of decent AV (keep in mind you're virtually guaranteed 2 hits, and a third if the ADS doesn't run immediately). This is balanced, in my opinion; swarms have the potency to threaten and kill ADSs and ADSs still have a chance to escape. To improve on this damage-wise would put swarms over the edge of balance and make them OP. The only change I'd suggest would be the change to a single missile. (However, there needs to be improvements to dropship threat and target recognition, including early-warning of AV and improved rendering of infantry when approaching). My idea is to have AV engage different vehicles in different ways. Similar to how Eve has signature radius, velocity, tracking, etc. to balance larger ships against smaller, all AV should have set values against different vehicles. Just for example: forge does full damage to an HAV and 85% to an LAV, lock-on for swarms is base against HAVs but slightly longer for LAVs (dropships are somewhere in the middle/ leaning toward base). Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:22:00 - [265] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. 1. Hmmm. Sorry about that. Maybe specific numbers will help: Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 250HP CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m. Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 288HP AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m. * Assumes units are decloaked (85% less range if cloaked). To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half. Meanwhile, a GalLogi with multiple 21dB, 200m, 90 degree scanners covers much more area at greater intensity (and his recon is shared team-wide, with directional arrows). A Field Commander who knows what he's doing will field a GalLogi for recon before he fields an AM or CA Scout. 2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions; if you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely exchanging bullets with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more EWAR interplay and counterplay among different unit types. 3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they replaced the weakened Recon Scout. As of December, passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play are perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much exactly like an Ambush match against Nyain San. 21db scans are only 45-¦ angle and 100m range with I think a 10 second light up and a 30 second cooldown. RECON was never a "passive" activity until OP scout profile/detection conditions made you suddenly think it is. PASSIVE RECON was never RECON. Except to scouts that got high on their passives and movement speed to the point of hallucination. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17461	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:23:00 - [266] - Quote ReGnYuM wrote: IMHO, I think the focus on the HMG rebalance needs to be its range. I think any PC player (or any seasoned vet) understands that if you run at a heavy full-frontal, you will lose. However, on numerous occasions I have have placed myself at reasonable distance and still I have been shredded down. The HMG's reach is just too much for the sockets we're playing in. As for the Heavies role, I am pretty sure it has been established that they're PtD (Point Defence). I've heard that too. However point defence does not infer a close quarters focus. Would not it simply make more sense to defend the point and prevent anyone getting to it as opposed to shooing them off it once they are already in there. A Machine-gun as compared to a rifle is an unwieldy thing. Typically have longer barrels, heavier magazines and rounds (of larger calibre) and difficult to control recoil which is why you might typically see them with bipod attachments or mounted on vehicles. More importantly the rounds can be fired as far if not further than those of a standard rifle. Strikes me that a better defined role for a sentinel would be one in which they can leverage their superior RoF and range to keep enemies away from the point they are defending or supporting at long range faster moving allies attacking another another point but suffer in close quarters where faster suits can strafe passed them. "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:33:00 - [267] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The-Errorist wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. 1. Hmmm. Sorry about that. Maybe specific numbers will help: Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 250HP CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m. Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 288HP AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m. * Assumes units are decloaked (85% less range if cloaked). To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half. Meanwhile, a GalLogi with multiple 21dB, 200m, 90 degree scanners covers much more area at greater intensity (and his recon is shared team-wide, with directional arrows). A Field Commander who knows what he's doing will field a GalLogi for recon before he fields an AM or CA Scout. 2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions; if you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely exchanging bullets with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more EWAR interplay and counterplay among different unit types. 3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they replaced the weakened Recon Scout. As of December, passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play are perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much exactly like an Ambush match against Nyain San. 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown. "Passive Recon" was never RECON except to scouts who were high on their passives and their speed to the point of being delusional. RECON is never a "passive" activity. Support, yes. Passive, no. EWAR, btw =/= RECON. It can be part of it, but you're doing yourself a major disservice by trying to redherring the question and presenting inaccurate figures instead..... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1018	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:48:00 - [268] - Quote By the way, some optional terminology changes on the HMG topic: - Burst HMG receives a range and dispersion buff, becomes standard HMG. (Short bursts, medium range - typically Minmatar) - Standard HMG gets a range reduction, becomes assault HMG. (Short range bullet hose - typically Gallente) - Assault HMG becomes autocannon, becomes breach HMG. (Low RoF, long range - typically Caldari) Also, while we're discussion heavy weapons, may I plant the idea that we're missing a anti-infantry Forgegun variant? Such as the Tactical Forgegun - 80 m optimal range, 130 m effective range, 1.3 s charge up before skills, can't hold charge, 8 shots per clip, 500 damage per shot at proto, barely any splash damage.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 896	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:53:00 - [269] - Quote @ OP Not suprised to see the HMG at the top, those who've expressed already that PC is essentially skirmish mode, so Point Defense and PD focused fits are pivotal to success are accurate. Not suprised either that Scout and Scout tools are also high on the list, they've been very prominent in PCs for a long time, and ideally should be if for perhaps different reasons than they are actually. I too would like to see more data than just kill charts for PC, though it is a skirm there's so much more going on in general that drawing complete accurate conclusions about any of this based just on a list like this is probably more troublesome than its worth. @ Rattati- Thanks for releasing this, some info is better than no info provided the wild speculation can be kept in check. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7515	Posted - 2015.03.04 21:53:00 - [270] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: By the way, some optional terminology changes on the HMG topic: - Burst HMG receives a range and dispersion buff, becomes standard HMG. (Short bursts, medium range - typically Minmatar) - Standard HMG gets a range reduction, becomes assault HMG. (Short range bullet hose - typically Gallente) - Assault HMG becomes autocannon, becomes breach HMG. (Low RoF, long range - typically Caldari) Also, while we're discussion heavy weapons, may I plant the idea that we're missing a anti-infantry Forgegun variant? Such as the Tactical Forgegun - 80 m optimal range, 130 m effective range, 1.3 s charge up before skills, can't hold charge, 8 shots per clip, 500 damage per shot at proto, barely any splash damage. I very deeply want to get the HAV thing done first before I brainstorm things like that AV

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7515	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:00:00 - [271] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: It's not fair (at least I don't see it as fair) to AV to have to need two different variants of missiles to engage both aerial and ground vehicles. Vehicles are fine like this (needing split weapons); they can easily disengage to the redline, call in another vehicle, and recall their current one. But AV infantry don't have the luxury of accessing a supply depot as easily, especially when they're set up on, say, a roof top. You can do what I do. Jump OFF the roof and run to a depot. Rooftop camping isn't the only successful AV method, it's just the laziest. Quote: There's no need to increase the effectiveness of swarms agains any ADS. All ADS fits get downed in 3-4 shots of decent AV (keep in mind you're virtually guaranteed 2 hits, and a third if the ADS doesn't run immediately). This is balanced, in my opinion; swarms have the potency to threaten and kill ADSs and ADSs still have a chance to escape. To improve on this damage-wise would put swarms over the edge of balance and make them OP. The only change I'd suggest would be the change to a single missile. (However, there needs to be improvements to dropship threat and target recognition, including early-warning of AV and improved rendering of infantry when approaching). There's no intent to increase the effectiveness vs. dropships, there is an intent to balance one for tanks and one for dropships so it isn't the casual bloody-handed ripball that simply annihilates if the pilot is slightly slower of reflex. Quote: My idea is to have AV engage different vehicles in different ways. Similar to how Eve has signature radius, velocity, tracking, etc. to balance larger ships against smaller, all AV should have set values against different vehicles. Just for example: forge does full damage to an HAV and 85% to an LAV, lock-on for swarms is base against HAVs but slightly longer for LAVs (dropships are somewhere in the middle/ leaning toward base). there's no reason why a forge would do less to an LAV than an HAV. There's no reason a railgun would be less effective versus an LAV. Making heavier hitting weapons less effective against "soft" targets negates the need to have tanks to begin with. AV
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1018	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:00:00 - [272] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I very deeply want to get the HAV thing done first before I brainstorm things like that And I wish you the best of luck with that. I fully expect the game to be unplayable for two months following the deployment of the new HAVs. And I have no idea how to avoid that under the current design goals for the new HAVs. I'll just continue to distract myself with other suggestions. [Edit] By the way, I very much hope all Swarm Launcher variants will be able to lock on to all targets. They should just have different efficiencies at fighting air and ground targets. A short range SL should lock on quickly and apply large DPS. A long range SL should take a while to lock on and apply less DPS. Both can lock on any target within their individual range.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7515	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:03:00 - [273] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I very deeply want to get the HAV thing done first before I brainstorm things like that And I wish you the best of luck with that. I fully expect the game to be unplayable for two months following the deployment of the new HAVs. And I have no idea how to avoid that under the current design goals for the new HAVs. I'll just continue to distract myself with other suggestions. Rattati hasn't revealed his hand yet. We only have bare bones. the HAVs might go out by themselves. They might be released with modded AV. We won't know till we see the end result. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7245	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:08:00 - [274] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown. GalLogi 21dB Scans Prox - 60m, 40-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown * Will confirm cooldowns in game. I only run two of these. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Big miku Nation of Miku 481	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:19:00 - [275] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: A whole lotta text that I did read but quoting it all would be silly First off, All we have is Raw data and not the circumstance of the data nor the full picture, writing the data off as "heavy scout meta" is over simplification. The Meta could be broken down to Armor: Most popular Heavy suits Anti-Armor: Most popular Heavy weapon and Rifle and REs Speed: Scouts and MK.0s, Knives, REs and Shotguns Stealth:Scouts It is clear that Sentinels and Scouts are domination, but that can of course be attributed to Map design, as nearly every PC map will have 2 objectives in doors that are hotly contested, we need a bigger picture, how many of these heavy and scouts kills took place ontop of objectives, how often did they die, how long did the live? Then we have the Heavy weapons themselves, for that I'd like to say that the 2 Heavy Weapons we have mirror the Racial(?) damage type and trait to the extream end of the spectrum, if this was intended or not I do not know as I don't follow DEV Blogs. Rail Rifles Mid to Long Anti-Armor, Combat Rifles Short to Mid Anti-Armor, Blaster Rifles Short to Mid Anti-Shield, Scramblers Mid to Long Anti-Shield This design is mirrored by nearly all racial weaponry, by that you can assume that Heavy Weaponry would also mirror Racial Weapon philosophy as it currently does with our only two. Forge Gun is long range Anti-Armor AV which previously posed threat to Infantry. Heavy Machine Gun is close range Anti-Armor which previously posed a threat to Vehicles, primarily LAVs From the Above we could infer that the Amarr Heavy Weapon would be Long range Anti-Shield and the Gals Short Range Anti-Shield That is the reasoning I use for the HMG being Top tier at close range, because it is meant to embody the end spectrum of its Racial Weapon philosophy as a High Damage Anti-Armor weapon. I'll try to address your points now the best I can "1) If you're right and the Sentinel + HMG is a CQC option, then why would I want to use anything else? What balance function is there to ensure that Sentinels aren't the -only- sane option in a city fight? Don't say speed/mobility, keep reading" Right now the HMG is the only CQC option for the Sentinel and as long as Armor Trumps Shields when it comes to logistical support the HMG will remain the King of Heavy CQC, as to why you would use anything else, People are using things other than Sents with HMGs, Scouts, which also excel at CQC fighting and defending the lonely outdoor points, are in wide use. 2) If speed and mobility is it's weakness, then why are they allowed to get in a vehicle and bugger off? Why are they even allowed to sprint if this is considered a legitimate weakness? Would -that- be too OP all of a sudden? If so, why? Vehicles cannot easily get indoors and Heavies Cannot shoot while Driving they must disembark. You're asking me why are Fat suits allowed transportation because in your opinion it removes one of their weakness? then why would Scouts be allowed to Ride in tanks as that as well forgoes the Scouts Weakness. Vehicles by nature are meant for transportation. 3) If point defense is a primary role of the Sentinel, is personal defense (huge amounts of EHP on top of resistances) -absolutely necessary- for that role in tandem with huge amounts of DPS output? Why not one or the other? What is so bad about making a heavy rely on a Logi to have any sort of regeneration at all without having to sacrificing module slots (implying passive regen from the base suit)? Dust 514 is a Class Based shooter with all 4 of the Traditional Classes with some mix and matching, the reason the Sentinel is a High Damage Bullet Sponges is because that is what the Role is traditionally, High DPS, High Health, Slow mover. Class Based Shooter Concept Rundown It is just a design choice on CCPs. As to how to balance the HMG? As I said, it seems that current Heavy Weapon design is about extremes racial traits, so making shield tanking viable in the form of Rep Tools and Triage Hives for Shields and Introducing the Gal Heavy Weapon would change up the meta.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Dominion of the Supreme Emperor God-King KAGEHOSHI 12106	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:48:00 - [276] - Quote I would recommend giving the CA and GA assaults better bonuses before messing with the MN assault. Support 'Keshava' for the new Gallente HAV name in honor of Cat Merc's cat which recently passed away.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17461	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:48:00 - [277] - Quote Big miku wrote: Dust 514 is a Class Based shooter with all 4 of the Traditional Classes with some mix and matching, the reason the Sentinel is a High Damage Bullet Sponges is because that is what the Role is traditionally, High DPS, High Health, Slow mover. Class Based Shooter Concept Rundown It is just a design choice on CCPs. "Heavy Infantry Focuses on heavy weapons such as the light-machine gun to defend objectives from a distance. Slower than the light infantry class, but compensates for higher range and firepower." Taken from the article..... "This is the Usumgal boy, the exalted dragon, wreathed in the fires of heaven. He is a true symbol of God's majesty."
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 1018	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:49:00 - [278] - Quote Big miku wrote: Class Based Shooter Concept Rundown The 404 page that links to told me that friends don't send friends broken links. You're not a friend.
Big miku Nation of Miku 481	Posted - 2015.03.04 22:59:00 - [279] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Focuses on heavy weapons such as the light-machine gun to defend objectives from a distance. Slower than the light infantry class, but compensates for higher range and firepower." Taken from the article..... There lays the problem, Have you Played TF2, Battle Field, or Star Wars Battle Front? In those games Heavy Infantry are as described, but they are still used offensively. TF2 Is the prime Example, where Ubered Heavies and Medics on their Tails are used to Push Objectives, In Battle Field and Battle Front, the LMG weapons are Just as effective Up close as it is at Range. How do You take a Weapon That Kills With ROF and DPS at range and nullify it in CQC, which as I theorized is against the Minn Weapon Philosophy. I wish CCP would tell use what they want the heavy to be in this sense.
Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 69	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:00:00 - [280] - Quote I have to admit, I did not read every post in this thread, so please bear with me, if I unknowingly bring up an idea someone else already had here. But has any of you ever thought about a completely different take on heavy+HMG combo? You all talk about buff here, nerf there. CQC aside, we all agree on this game not being about CQC PC alone, pubs are a factor as well. And balancing HMG for CQC PC but killing it for everything else in the same run won't get us anywhere near happy, will it? I read in this thread and in many others as well, that burst HMG is in a fine place. Cannot say, if it was the same guy posting multiple places multiple times with multiple aliases, who knows...but I hope this not to be the case, as Iam the wrong person to judge the burst HMG by myself; Iam simply sucky with it. Let me get to the point. When we want the HMG, Burst HMG and Assault HMG to be distinct from another, and all agree on burst to be OK, assault to be in need of love to be any good for garden work out in the open, how about... ...making the regular HMG a no move, no strafe weapon as is the breach forge gun already? Please take this approach into consideration, and tell me, how this could change the pub AND PC meta landscape, for as slightly deranged this idea might sound to mine own ears, it has a certain for me not fully fathomable appeal I cannot ignore. [ Besides, I'd love to see the ridiculousness of heavies trying to breach-forge-like bunny hop in CQC. I guess we all know quite well what such hopping ends in.]

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7521	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:21:00 - [281] - Quote The breach lockdown is a trash mechanic that only serves to make you trivially easy to kill. It has no tactival limiting value except to guarantee that you will forever be a redline/tower sniper. AV
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1017	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:51:00 - [282] - Quote Big miku wrote: True Adamance wrote: Focuses on heavy weapons such as the light-machine gun to defend objectives from a distance. Slower than the light infantry class, but compensates for higher range and firepower." Taken from the article..... There lays the problem, Have you Played TF2, Battle Field, or Star Wars Battle Front? In those games Heavy Infantry are as described, but they are still used offensively. TF2 Is the prime Example, where Ubered Heavies and Medics on their Tails are used to Push Objectives, In Battle Field and Battle Front, the LMG weapons are Just as effective Up close as it is at Range. How do You take a Weapon That Kills With ROF and DPS at range and nullify it in CQC, which as I theorized is against the Minn Weapon Philosophy. I wish CCP would tell use what they want the heavy to be in this sense. You can make the HMG excel at range but not CqC several ways 1) hip fire, possibly like the SR. 2) turn speed, if heavies had very slow turn speed they could still track a target at 30m+ but not in CQC 3) charge time, however it could be bypassed by ore hatching 4)rising optimal range window above 30m like the LR Take your pick... Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Big miku Nation of Miku 481	Posted - 2015.03.04 23:56:00 - [283] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: 1) hip fire, possibly like the SR. 2) turn speed, if heavies had very slow turn speed they could still track a target at 30m+ but not in CQC 3) charge time, however it could be bypassed by ore hatching 4)rising optimal range window above 30m like the LR Take your pick... No the question that needs to be answered is, What does CCP intend with the only 2 Heavy Weapons?
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 899	Posted - 2015.03.05 00:00:00 - [284] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown. GalLogi 21dB Active Scans Prox - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown All still countered by the counter, an appropriately dampened Stealth Scout. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1017	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:32:00 - [285] - Quote If they give the HMG as many variants as the AR we will be doing pretty good Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL 438	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:36:00 - [286] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: What would be more intersesting is PC deaths. If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious. Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense. It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. What else would a heavy shoot if we had more heavy weapons maybe the numbers would be lower. ps lasers suck ,I was proto laser and proto commando and amarr assault and it was so bad i respected to Gallentee.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1017	Posted - 2015.03.05 01:42:00 - [287] - Quote I could be happy with the standard HMG having slightly more DPS then an AR but with 20m less range and a slow turn speed. In this way the heavy will have the HP and a solid gun (although not as powerful as it is currently) to be a POINT defense(not city defense). The slow turn speed would limit its "prowling" of the point. At this point the AR will be able to compete damage wise and the galASS will have the mobility to make it viable. Then we could have the long range suppression variant breakin has very logically shown to be a great idea and the AV variant that the devs want. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 720	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:14:00 - [288] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Data too raw and without all factors. To avoid Myopia, can you give us a list of the number of times which sockets were used for these PCs? The location of the objectives affect how well suits perform where. That aside...huge spike in Amarr HMGs. Why is that? I posit -- because more armor plates for logi rep tools. So can we have a list of the top WP in PC gain JUST like this one? See, here is the thing. We have this massive spike in Amarr heavies and act as though it is definitely the HMG. Yet, the Min Assault and CR as well as the Gal scout and shotgun outperforms The Cal heavy and their HMG. It outperforms the Min heavy and their HMG 2 to 1. The Gal heavy and HMG performs 30% better than the two above mentioned scouts. The burst HMG is better than the HMG -- but it doesn't have near the number of kills. Why is that as well? Too much raw data with no comparable over all picture data from other areas such as WP gained per suit/death (or, if it exists -- WP gained per suit by equipment.) (where is the assist per weapon/suit data?) All sorts of data that needs to be considered before blanket nerfing. A lot of people are going to draw ridiculous, narrow minded, knee jerk conclusions based on this and most people wouldn't know the scientific method if it bit them on their ass.
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1017	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:51:00 - [289] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Data too raw and without all factors. To avoid Myopia, can you give us a list of the number of times which sockets were used for these PCs? The location of the objectives affect how well suits perform where. That aside...huge spike in Amarr HMGs. Not so much the other HMGs. Why is this?. So can we have a list of the top WP in PC gain JUST like this one? See, here is the thing. We have this massive spike in Amarr heavies and act as though it is definitely the HMG. Yet, the Min Assault and CR as well as the Gal scout and shotgun outperforms The Cal heavy and their HMG. It outperforms the Min heavy and their HMG 2 to 1. The Gal heavy and HMG performs 30% better than the two above mentioned scouts. The burst HMG is better than the HMG -- but it doesn't have near the number of kills. Why is that as well? Too much raw data with no comparable over all picture data from other areas such as WP gained per suit/death (or, if it exists -- WP gained per suit by equipment.) (where is the assist per weapon/suit data?) All sorts of data that needs to be considered before blanket nerfing. A lot of people are going to draw ridiculous, narrow minded, knee jerk conclusions based on this and most people wouldn't know the scientific method if it bit them on their ass. I believe it's because of the idea that heavies are the best in CQC if you have a logi at his back and of all the heavies amarr take advantage of this the most with all their armor. If we removed the amarr heavy then gal would be the top used and if it was removed then even the min sent would be the most used. Although I do believe the HMG needs a rework, the problem in part also lies in the high armor suit with logi combo with an very high DPS weapon. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7264	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:54:00 - [290] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown. GalLogi 21dB Active Scans Prox - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown All still countered by the counter, an appropriately dampened Stealth Scout. What we should asking ourselves is whether or not permascan at 21dB is appropriate. Did we not replace passive scans with active scans on the assumption that they wouldn't be "always on"? That they would improve EWAR interplay? That they would be more about hide & seek and less about absolutes? *Run a dampened Scout in competitive play or be perma-scanned.* ^ How is this not an absolute? I believe that Dampened Assaults should be a viable slayer option in PC; the fact that they aren't artificially inflates Scout usage. To require 3 lows of Assaults to simply "not always be on radar" is to require too much. I say we drop that requirement from 3 to 2. Let them play hide & seek with GalLogis. Let the GalLogi run a Focused Scanner and paint sections of sockets periodically rather than the entirety of a city constantly. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Bright Steel Horizons' Edge VP Gaming Alliance 1017	Posted - 2015.03.05 02:59:00 - [291] - Quote After looking at the whole thread and from personal experience I believe what we are dealing with here is a lot like our frame rate issues. It's not one specific thing that's causeing ALL the problems but a combination of problems that have culminated into a very bad situation. 3 things come to mind: 1) map design 2) a unit that has BOTH high HP and DPS 3) rep tool being too powerful behind said unit (needs some kind of overheat mechanic and/or nanite consumption mechanic) If we tried to remedy the problem by addressing only one of these issues we will undoubtedly over nerf that aspect of the game. Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2581	Posted - 2015.03.05 06:46:00 - [292] - Quote Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 17911	Posted - 2015.03.05 06:47:00 - [293] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. It's right up there, a few hundred kills from the top 10... "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 400	Posted - 2015.03.05 08:45:00 - [294] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. Notice the armor meta.
Mexxx Dust-Slayer Negative-Feedback 400	Posted - 2015.03.05 10:00:00 - [295] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Imp Smash wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't. Data too raw and without all factors. To avoid Myopia, can you give us a list of the number of times which sockets were used for these PCs? The location of the objectives affect how well suits perform where. That aside...huge spike in Amarr HMGs. Not so much the other HMGs. Why is this?. So can we have a list of the top WP in PC gain JUST like this one? See, here is the thing. We have this massive spike in Amarr heavies and act as though it is definitely the HMG. Yet, the Min Assault and CR as well as the Gal scout and shotgun outperforms The Cal heavy and their HMG. It outperforms the Min heavy and their HMG 2 to 1. The Gal heavy and HMG performs 30% better than the two above mentioned scouts. The burst HMG is better than the HMG -- but it doesn't have near the number of kills. Why is that as well? Too much raw data with no comparable over all picture data from other areas such as WP gained per suit/death (or, if it exists -- WP gained per suit by equipment.) (where is the assist per weapon/suit data?) All sorts of data that needs to be considered before blanket nerfing. A lot of people are going to draw ridiculous, narrow minded, knee jerk conclusions based on this and most people wouldn't know the scientific method if it bit them on their ass. I believe it's because of the idea that heavies are the best in CQC if you have a logi at his back and of all the heavies amarr take advantage of this the most with all their armor. If we removed the amarr heavy then gal would be the top used and if it was removed then even the min sent would be the most used. Although I do believe the HMG needs a rework, the problem in part also lies in the high armor suit with logi combo with an very high DPS weapon. I agree with what both of you are saying, the HMG is definitely OP but it is not the sole factor. It's the fact that the amarr sentinel is flat out better than the other sentinels and most survivable against scouts paired up with the logis on them. If this were not the case, HMG sentinels would be behind in the PC data.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7524	Posted - 2015.03.05 10:59:00 - [296] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: I could be happy with the standard HMG having slightly more DPS then an AR but with 20m less range and a slow turn speed. In this way the heavy will have the HP and a solid gun (although not as powerful as it is currently) to be a POINT defense(not city defense). The slow turn speed would limit its "prowling" of the point. At this point the AR will be able to compete damage wise and the galASS will have the mobility to make it viable. Then we could have the long range suppression variant breakin has very logically shown to be a great idea and the AV variant that the devs want. Slow turn speeds are only balanced on long range weapons. If you can get close it's likely dogmeat. However, putting a slow turn speed on a point blank weapon makes it worthless for everything. We had this in chrome it was removed for a REASON. If heavy weapons are ranged support then absolutely. Not in CQC. If you have a CQC fighter everyone can casually circle strafe around shooting in the head you will merelycause them all to go up and forge snipe. This is why I want sentinels pushed out of CQC. Because it's easier to apply changes liike that logically without gimping them into uselessness. Also losing 20m of range means HMG optimal is 10m. Well within the threshold where heavies universally switch to rifles and shotguns. This is why I detest CQC HMGs. They only have ONE function. They have no utility and honestly they create more problems than they solve. AV
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2585	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:00:00 - [297] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. It's right up there, a few hundred kills from the top 10... Yet outclassed by I see 12 weapons I believe? I do not deny its power at all, but there is a reason it isn't in the top 5, or even the top 10. I meant no offense to you, I simply get frustrated when people call a weapon OP without considering all data points. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7290	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:14:00 - [298] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... I simply get frustrated when people call a weapon OP without considering all data points. Or it could have something to do with the prevalence of armor tank in PC. I wouldn't be quick to label the ScR "not OP" ... it is presently Nyain San's (Addict, Kaizuka, Milkman, Aki etc) weapon of choice when stomping Ambush pubs, and we know for a fact that these guys don't fool around when it comes to pubstomping. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8918	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:26:00 - [299] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I agree with the content of your message, Aeon, but the delivery struck me as a tad cheeky. Also, let's not be too hard on them for locking down the meta. As bad as Scout/Heavy 514 was this past year, it was no where near as profuse and rampant as AR-514 the year prior. We have more build variety today than at any time since Chromosome. Glad you noticed what I was trying to do there. The AR-514 meta stemmed from the fact that up until Uprising was released everyone just specced into Light Weapon Sharpshooter and had ARs with 100m optimal. That was a fundamental design flaw, not a fault of the weapon. I'd hardly say that it was "AR-514" before 1.7/1.8 came along because then you'd be forgetting to mention: No-one can shoot past their optimal 514 (1.0 - 1.2 era) Flaylock/Contact Locus Grenade 514 (1.4-era) LLAV 514 (1.5-era) The AR-514 thing was dead -long- before 1.7/1.8 came around. Plus, if it was really -THAT BAD- then why didn't anyone say anything about it after the Combat Rifle and Rail Rifle were released..? The AR hasn't been nerfed, save for the 10% damage nerf that applied to everything BUT the HMG (hilarious coincidence I know) ever since 1.7, it's actually been buffed a few times. Big miku wrote: Bunch of maybes 1) Heavies versus Scouts and ALL DAT BUTTER-SAUCE I just explained to you that players use Scouts to combat Sentinels. Factors like "how long was the person with the HMG alive before they died" are a deflection at best and have absolutely nothing to do with the HMG balance. -OF COURSE- the person with the HMG is going to be alive longer, look at the only suit it can be fitted to and look at what it is. This meta has been going on for a year. Not a month, not a few weeks. We've had plenty of time to see what the root reasons are here and just because a dev didn't directly come out and say, "Yeah, it's because it's so kittening awesome at butter-sauce" doesn't mean that the rest of the community is just making hair-brained theories that it's butter-sauce. It's butter-sauce. Pure and simple. It shouldn't require a dev to repeat what we already know. 2) Mobility =/= Transportation. Learn the distinction. As far as the mobility question, you didn't answer it at all, you just deflected. Again. I'd tell you how frustrating that is but instead I'll do you a solid and just deflect myself. If Scouts are using Tanks to circumvent their defensive weakness than why am I still drinking diet pepsi? It's a simple equation: Sentinel + Vehicle = No more speed weakness. Instead of saying "Well, scouts can do it too" how about acknowledging the fact that I might actually be able to 1-v-1 the kitten Scout when he decides to bail out of said vehicle? Do you see Scouts roaming the country-side ready to murder taxi lone individuals out in the open? No. It's Sentinels. Every time. What functional, MEANINGFUL, impactful, enthralling, and engaging gameplay comes from Sentinels being able to drive LAVs and HAVs? Nothing. Transportation is one thing, using it to circumvent a weakness is BS. 3) Arguing that the HMG shouldn't be nerfed because WE CAN MAKE MOAR STUFF Yes, Dust 514 is -loosely- a class based shooter with an absolutely incredibly amount of customization that allows for those classes to be tweaked to certain gameplay styles (such as a Sentinel with a Sniper Rifle). It is not -RESTRICTIVE- of that design philosophy, CCP has -constantly- changed design teams (we've blown through several senior producers in the past few years), and CCP has shown a remarkable tendency to change their design philosophies at the drop of a hat. So far, it's worked with Rattati. It didn't really work before. But even in your cherry-picked evidence of "Heavy Infantry = Best at everything" link, you apparently didn't read the fact that no-where in that article did it say that Point Defense came with being the absolute best at Offense -and- Defense, let alone have the ability to hamstring their speed weakness. It quite literally says that the reason Heavy Infantry is slower because it has higher range and higher firepower. You don't solve problems by introducing more problems. The HMG doesn't have problems hammering through heavily shielded targets and if it did we'd been seeing a meta-adaptation to counter that in the form of more shielded suits running around. When your DPS is so high that hitting shields still puts you at higher DPS values than an Assault Rifle (which was designed for shielded targets) you can't really say that you use it because of the "armor meta". If you look at the break-down of what the top 10 combos are being used, they're not exactly prevalent armor users either with the exception of the Sentinels. Introducing new modules/equipment to support shield tanking doesn't suddenly solve the fact that the HMG is the end-all-be-all at ranges <40m. Quote: The TL;DR 4) How the cookie boils down The Sentinel's role is point defense. It always was. It's class is defined by it's ability to use heavy weapons but that -does not mean- that it's heavy weaponry has to usurp everything else and it -does not mean- that the Sentinel has to usurp everything else. The Sentinel can absolutely be powerful but at the moment the problem is that it's -TOO GOOD- at it's own role, so much so that other roles that are designed to play in the same environment are being pushed out in favor of it. We had a pretty good balance toward the end of 1.6 when they fixed the 'laser accurate' issue with the HMG and actually gave it dispersion. The balance was -slightly skewed- when they gave it an RoF buff in 1.7. They completely ruined the balance when everything -BUT- the HMG got a 10% damage nerf. Imagine how much different Dust 514 would have been if they hadn't done that. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2585	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:30:00 - [300] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... I simply get frustrated when people call a weapon OP without considering all data points. Or it could have something to do with the prevalence of armor tank in PC. I wouldn't be quick to label the ScR "not OP" ... it is presently Nyain San's (Addict, Kaizuka, Milkman, Aki etc) weapon of choice when stomping Ambush pubs, and we know for a fact that these guys don't fool around when it comes to pubstomping. As I've said before, the ScR is indeed very powerful, but for a very limited window. Overheat is a punishing disadvantage. If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Yet it doesn't even make the top ten. Pubs are a contentious place to look for balancing, because you are not on an equal playing field; yes, my Viziam is going to maul starter suits, just like any other proto rifle will. PC is the best place to look for balance issues because everyone is on similar footing in terms of gear. We are all basically in proto suits with proto weapons and proto mods. So seeing what is used in PC gives a good look at what needs to be tweaked. IT should by no means be the only data point. We should consider all data points, like PC usage, DPS, range, ease-of-use, alpha damage, etc. But PC usage is all about optimization, and if the ScR really was the wondeful death-machine some forum wariors make it out to be, then the top players of PC would be using it when they clearly aren't. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7291	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:37:00 - [301] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily. The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7526	Posted - 2015.03.05 15:44:00 - [302] - Quote Aeon quit making me question our philosophical emnity. On a more serious note: I am a shameless, unrepentant HMG hosehead. I say I want things changed because the weapon's fundamental design negates far too many things. Only in CQC? Sure. I would give you that were it not for the fact that CQC conditions account for well over 80% of all valuable spots on the maps for winning. I'm happy that the LAVs are getting nerfed. Now murder taxi fatties in full proto with no tank modules will die horribly to a single AV nade. I call this a win. Hope ya like that 150k/suit replacement bill, scumbag! Thing is, every so often the meta needs a shakeup. Certain aspects of the game have become far too stagnant. Whenever the dance between tactical maneuver and defensive counter boil down to one action the meta has become stagnant. I embrace changes because I (and a few others) only have to alter a fit to adjust to a new meta. Nerf the amsent into the ground? No worries I have the other three maxed anyway. Nerf heavies into the ground? I have assaults and commandos to fall back on. All of them. Some people don't have that luxury I understand. But what I want to know is: you know it's easy. You know it's completely OP. Yet you still blow all your SP to get into that thing and get mad when the inevitable happens. By "you" I am speaking as a vague generalization, not directed at ANYONE in this thread or any other. Sometimes "you" can fully include me when I'm not paying attention. It's happened before. Nerfing the HMG is not "an attack on my playstyle." It is an attempt to break a stagnant meta. The most constructive response would be to acknowledge that and state whether you consider the method of fixing bad and why. I dislike range hacks INTENSELY. But I fully expect to see a 20-25m optimal on yhe HMG and a sharp DPS nerf. If it's too much I'll just shift to another weapon or tactic. All I cscan do is provide input and hope it is seriously considered. AV
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:00:00 - [303] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Also to note, MN Assault trending rapidly up, may need reining in soon. Try nerfing the stamina gain on it. Its got 250% of the Gal/Cal assault stamina gain, and ~166% the stamina gain of the Amarr assault. With the advantage in speed that the minmitar assault has, it gives that one suit a massive advantage in mobility over the other assaults. I made a thread about this a while back but nobody seemed to think it was overpowered, but I think its probably why the min assault is so well used. You get mobility better than all but the minmitar scout with slighty under your run of the mill assault's health. I'd suggest making the stamina gain 30/s like the Amarr assault and see if that helps before taking any more drastic measures.
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:02:00 - [304] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: I, for one, am incredibly surprised that there isn't a single Gal Assault/ TAR up there Also Gal Scout...? You sure this wasn't from last patch? Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. Gal/Cal scouts are still very good in PC with shotguns and remotes. I don't know what game you're playing, but it aint Dust 514.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7294	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:13:00 - [305] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Also Gal Scout...? You sure this wasn't from last patch? Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. Gal/Cal scouts are still very good in PC with shotguns and remotes. I don't know what game you're playing, but it aint Dust 514. If your enemy is fielding GalLogi scans (which is the new meta), GA/CA Scouts are still your best options at getting under those scans and getting close to the blob. Assaults make for superior slayers, but they can't beat 21 dB permascan without gimping themselves. If your enemy is not fielding GalLogi scans, then Archduke's assessment is closer to correct, though the MN Scout's hacks are another great reason to use a Scout suit in PC. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:17:00 - [306] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The incubus is there to murder vehicles, its going to get less kills. If you want to farm infantry kills you go Python/Missile turret, so it gets more kills.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2585	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:24:00 - [307] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily. The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play. And this is one of its balancing points; it sucks against armor. I proposed a solution that would nerf its shield killing while not hurting its armor killing awhile back but it never got traction. But I hold by the fact that the ScR isn't in the top ten when it comes to kills in PC, and the fact that the shotgun, a weapon with ~1/20 the optimal (Shotgun: 4m vs ScR: 75m) and barely more DPS ( Viziam ScR: 715, CreoDron Shotgun: 754) is head and shoulders above the ScR in presence, and the shotgun also has an armor weakness. The ScR is powerful no doubt, but that power comes at a high price, a price people obviously aren't willing to pay by a very large margin. I would also pooint out that over 90% of all ScR kills come from a single suit. The ScR has about 400 kills on a couple of scouts, and other than that no presence on any other suit, save Amarr Assault. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5189	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:25:00 - [308] - Quote Mexxx Dust-Slayer wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. Notice the armor meta. Also notice the lag meta. Semi-autos lose DPS in poor frame rate environments. PC isn't exactly stellar in this regard. Usually banned for being too awesome.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7530	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:30:00 - [309] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The incubus is there to murder vehicles, its going to get less kills. If you want to farm infantry kills you go Python/Missile turret, so it gets more kills. I'll be over here with a forge pointed up while incubus pilots experiment with the blaster changes. This is either going to be really hilarious or really scary. I'm personally hoping for hilariously scary. AV
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:39:00 - [310] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily. The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play. And this is one of its balancing points; it sucks against armor. I proposed a solution that would nerf its shield killing while not hurting its armor killing awhile back but it never got traction. But I hold by the fact that the ScR isn't in the top ten when it comes to kills in PC, and the fact that the shotgun, a weapon with ~1/20 the optimal (Shotgun: 4m vs ScR: 75m) and barely more DPS ( Viziam ScR: 715, CreoDron Shotgun: 754) is head and shoulders above the ScR in presence, and the shotgun also has an armor weakness. The ScR is powerful no doubt, but that power comes at a high price, a price people obviously aren't willing to pay by a very large margin. I would also pooint out that over 90% of all ScR kills come from a single suit. The ScR has about 400 kills on a couple of scouts, and other than that no presence on any other suit, save Amarr Assault. I keep trying to get this point across too: its way too good against shields to be balanced and not good enough against armor to be useful in PC. Nobody wants to touch their precious scrambler rifle to fix it, but until both of these issues are fixed its going to be a ****** weapon, both in terms of prohibiting real shield tanking and being not good enough in competitive environments. Its overpowered and underpowered at the same time but whenever I suggest fixing it people cry like babies. And the problem is even worse for the ASCR since you cant front load massive damage bursts by clicking fast enough.

Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2587	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:39:00 - [311] - Quote I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:40:00 - [312] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying. The incubus is there to murder vehicles, its going to get less kills. If you want to farm infantry kills you go Python/Missile turret, so it gets more kills. I'll be over here with a forge pointed up while incubus pilots experiment with the blaster changes. This is either going to be really hilarious or really scary. I'm personally hoping for hilariously scary. Probably the blaster still wont be used in dropships, their range is too crappy (or did it get buffed? Im too lazy to look).
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2587	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:45:00 - [313] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily. The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play. And this is one of its balancing points; it sucks against armor. I proposed a solution that would nerf its shield killing while not hurting its armor killing awhile back but it never got traction. But I hold by the fact that the ScR isn't in the top ten when it comes to kills in PC, and the fact that the shotgun, a weapon with ~1/20 the optimal (Shotgun: 4m vs ScR: 75m) and barely more DPS ( Viziam ScR: 715, CreoDron Shotgun: 754) is head and shoulders above the ScR in presence, and the shotgun also has an armor weakness. The ScR is powerful no doubt, but that power comes at a high price, a price people obviously aren't willing to pay by a very large margin. I would also pooint out that over 90% of all ScR kills come from a single suit. The ScR has about 400 kills on a couple of scouts, and other than that no presence on any other suit, save Amarr Assault. I keep trying to get this point across too: its way too good against shields to be balanced and not good enough against armor to be useful in PC. Nobody wants to touch their precious scrambler rifle to fix it, but until both of these issues are fixed its going to be a ****** weapon, both in terms of prohibiting real shield tanking and being not good enough in competitive environments. Its overpowered and underpowered at the same time but whenever I suggest fixing it people cry like babies. And the problem is even worse for the ASCR since you cant front load massive damage bursts by clicking fast enough. I proposed a solution to its shield devastation that never gained traction. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:52:00 - [314] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily. The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play. And this is one of its balancing points; it sucks against armor. I proposed a solution that would nerf its shield killing while not hurting its armor killing awhile back but it never got traction. But I hold by the fact that the ScR isn't in the top ten when it comes to kills in PC, and the fact that the shotgun, a weapon with ~1/20 the optimal (Shotgun: 4m vs ScR: 75m) and barely more DPS ( Viziam ScR: 715, CreoDron Shotgun: 754) is head and shoulders above the ScR in presence, and the shotgun also has an armor weakness. The ScR is powerful no doubt, but that power comes at a high price, a price people obviously aren't willing to pay by a very large margin. I would also pooint out that over 90% of all ScR kills come from a single suit. The ScR has about 400 kills on a couple of scouts, and other than that no presence on any other suit, save Amarr Assault. I keep trying to get this point across too: its way too good against shields to be balanced and not good enough against armor to be useful in PC. Nobody wants to touch their precious scrambler rifle to fix it, but until both of these issues are fixed its going to be a **** weapon, both in terms of prohibiting real shield tanking and being not good enough in competitive environments. Its overpowered and underpowered at the same time but whenever I suggest fixing it people cry like babies. And the problem is even worse for the ASCR since you cant front load massive damage bursts by clicking fast enough. I proposed a solution to its shield devastation that never gained traction. Yeah I think thats a good start on fixing the problem, though I think armor damage for the scrambler might actually need to go up some before it gets there. Any change in the right direction is welcome though. The ASCR in particular needs help with this, but it looks like instead of a profile change Rattatti is giving it a straight damage boost (which makes it more effective against already **** over shield suits, oh boy!)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7531	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:53:00 - [315] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. dispersion actually HELPS in CQC. the most torturous part of the HMG screwballs in Uprising 1.0 was when the HMG did the laser beam thing. It was insanely hard to apply damage at all the closer you got. Tighter dispersion means more rounds hit, yes, but it's also a much smaller area where aim assist applies bullet magnetism. AV
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7297	Posted - 2015.03.05 16:54:00 - [316] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I proposed a solution to its shield devastation that never gained traction. Interesting. But why create a separate damage profile for the ScR? Why not apply this proposed profile to all laser weaponry? (simply curious ... not trying to poke holes in your proposition) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2590	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:00:00 - [317] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I proposed a solution to its shield devastation that never gained traction. Interesting. But why create a separate damage profile for the ScR? Why not apply this proposed profile to all laser weaponry? (simply curious ... not trying to poke holes in your proposition) For similar reasons to the CR not having -20/+20 like the MD. I feel like +15/-15 is opposite the CR -15/+15, and the LR +20/-20 is opposite the MD -20/+20. Lore-wise, Eve ships have different ammo types that trade range for more damage. The short range laser ammo in Eve does this by upping thermal damage along with em damage, meaning the ScR is loaded with short range crystals that deal some thermal damage (thus +15/-15) while the LR is loaded with a long range crystal (thus +20/-20) And in the end, the range profile in my eyes did more good than harm. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2590	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:01:00 - [318] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. dispersion actually HELPS in CQC. the most torturous part of the HMG screwballs in Uprising 1.0 was when the HMG did the laser beam thing. It was insanely hard to apply damage at all the closer you got. Tighter dispersion means more rounds hit, yes, but it's also a much smaller area where aim assist applies bullet magnetism. Exatly, this helps it in CQC. But the argument is that the HMG is too good at range, and in that regard more dispersion is a hindrance than help. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 479	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:02:00 - [319] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I proposed a solution to its shield devastation that never gained traction. Interesting. But why create a separate damage profile for the ScR? Why not apply this proposed profile to all laser weaponry? (simply curious ... not trying to poke holes in your proposition) Because we want the weapon to be balanced, which it is not right now. Damage profile change is a quick step in the right direction and might fix both issues with the gun (shields are completely worthless at any EHP value against a scrambler and large amounts of armor tank make the scrambler almost unusable) at the same time.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7533	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:12:00 - [320] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. dispersion actually HELPS in CQC. the most torturous part of the HMG screwballs in Uprising 1.0 was when the HMG did the laser beam thing. It was insanely hard to apply damage at all the closer you got. Tighter dispersion means more rounds hit, yes, but it's also a much smaller area where aim assist applies bullet magnetism. Exatly, this helps it in CQC. But the argument is that the HMG is too good at range, and in that regard more dispersion is a hindrance than help. being too good at range is a side effect of "too much DPS to begin with." If it's doing as much DPS at range as would be fair as a baseline for overall DPS, is it a better solution to hack the range? or reduce the DPS. Honestly most of the crying for range nerfs is rather reminiscent of the calls in beta to hack the range of the HMG when we had more open ground maps, which made them easy to farm for KD. there's a few things going on here. But the range? Nah. People want the range hacked because for some reason most players have it in their head that if a heavy can do ANY damage at 50m it's overpowered. The range nerf that has been bandied about is a side effect of the mindset that crystallized during beta. Problem is in the gal lab 20 meter optimal isn't going to affect a DAMN thing in the orbital artillery map, the gallente lab underground bunker, Etc. It'll just be easier to farm them on the rare occasion they want to move around. AV

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8921	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:13:00 - [321] - Quote As far as damage profiles, I really wish we borrowed more from Eve and had the whole EM/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive damage layout that we could individually tweak to what we're fighting against specifically instead of just being stuck with it. Can you imagine how awesome it would be to run armor and have all your resistances geared against Explosive to handle up on Mass Drivers/Grenades, but having a Thermal hole that Blaster weapons (like the AR) could punch through easier..? Would be so much more fun in my opinion. But, alas, it's just Armor vs Shield with five different weapon types. ..... Although, in retrospect, if we had modules to increase our resistance to certain weapons in the same slots as buffer... That'd be cool.... Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 80	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:21:00 - [322] - Quote I have a great idea to nerf the HMG! Everyone keeps focusing on range. That is one factor in all weapons. Why don't we take the ammo in the hopper down. Then we will see heavies perform closer to the PLC (I threw up a little thinking about heavies with PLCs.) Heavies will then still be dangerous and use HMGs, but they will be down, reloading more. Using the burst like I do, the heat is the factor that has a huge impact, but bullets are also needed. This will take the time the guns are spraying a crowd down. Don't expect them to disappear from PCs, just expect more percision and team work to keep the HMGs up on the battlefield then. As a heavy, I yell out, reloading a lot, then step back. Sometimes my logis and I have had to fight with sidearms because the scouts wouldn't let us reload. It makes for more nail biting conflicts. Instead of the back and forth of nerfing ranges and dps. The HMG needs to continue to out DPS the other weapons at CQC or it will simply be dropped for the next lowest TTK defense weapon. If you make variants that is great and make heavy's roles change possibly, but reduce the ammo on the boundless because it doesn't have a downside or skill requirement which is the most OP effect. Make clip management the downside. Also, if you guys want to change the types of heavies up a bit, make heavies get a racial benefit to a specific weapon variant. It worked for the assaults and commandos. Wouldn't that expand which heavy is chosen. Give the Min Heavy the boudless HMG. Then heavies will be using weapons more based on race. What do people think? Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2590	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:27:00 - [323] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. dispersion actually HELPS in CQC. the most torturous part of the HMG screwballs in Uprising 1.0 was when the HMG did the laser beam thing. It was insanely hard to apply damage at all the closer you got. Tighter dispersion means more rounds hit, yes, but it's also a much smaller area where aim assist applies bullet magnetism. Exatly, this helps it in CQC. But the argument is that the HMG is too good at range, and in that regard more dispersion is a hindrance than help. being too good at range is a side effect of "too much DPS to begin with." If it's doing as much DPS at range as would be fair as a baseline for overall DPS, is it a better solution to hack the range? or reduce the DPS. Honestly most of the crying for range nerfs is rather reminiscent of the calls in beta to hack the range of the HMG when we had more open ground maps, which made them easy to farm for KD. there's a few things going on here. But the range? Nah. People want the range hacked because for some reason most players have it in their head that if a heavy can do ANY damage at 50m it's overpowered. The range nerf that has been bandied about is a side effect of the mindset that crystallized during beta. Problem is in the gal lab 20 meter optimal isn't going to affect a DAMN thing in the orbital artillery map, the gallente lab underground bunker, Etc. It'll just be easier to farm them on the rare occasion they want to move around. I agree mostly, but I feel like the HMG is justified to have high DPS like it does. The issue is damage application in my mind. Keep it at high damage for when they get in close, but hinder its effectiveness farther out through dispersion. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8921	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:27:00 - [324] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: I have a great idea to nerf the HMG! Everyone keeps focusing on range. That is one factor in all weapons. Why don't we take the ammo in the hopper down. Then we will see heavies perform closer to the PLC (I threw up a little thinking about heavies with PLCs.) Heavies will then still be dangerous and use HMGs, but they will be down, reloading more. Using the burst like I do, the heat is the factor that has a huge impact, but bullets are also needed. This will take the time the guns are spraying a crowd down. Don't expect them to disappear from PCs, just expect more percision and team work to keep the HMGs up on the battlefield then. As a heavy, I yell out, reloading a lot, then step back. Sometimes my logis and I have had to fight with sidearms because the scouts wouldn't let us reload. It makes for more nail biting conflicts. Instead of the back and forth of nerfing ranges and dps. The HMG needs to continue to out DPS the other weapons at CQC. If you make variants that is great, but reduce the ammo on the boundless because it doesn't have a downside or skill requirement. Make clip management the downside. What do people think? I think we've kittened around long enough with heat/reload/ammo to know that at this point it is the sheer killing potential that is the problem. Heat/Reload/Ammo doesn't matter when everyone in front of you is already dead. Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1738	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:27:00 - [325] - Quote Nerfing heavies will not fix the main problem that causes heavy spam in the first place which is map design.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7533	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:27:00 - [326] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: I have a great idea to nerf the HMG! Everyone keeps focusing on range. That is one factor in all weapons. Why don't we take the ammo in the hopper down. Then we will see heavies perform closer to the PLC (I threw up a little thinking about heavies with PLCs.) Heavies will then still be dangerous and use HMGs, but they will be down, reloading more. Using the burst like I do, the heat is the factor that has a huge impact, but bullets are also needed. This will take the time the guns are spraying a crowd down. Don't expect them to disappear from PCs, just expect more percision and team work to keep the HMGs up on the battlefield then. As a heavy, I yell out, reloading a lot, then step back. Sometimes my logis and I have had to fight with sidearms because the scouts wouldn't let us reload. It makes for more nail biting conflicts. Instead of the back and forth of nerfing ranges and dps. The HMG needs to continue to out DPS the other weapons at CQC or it will simply be dropped for the next lowest TTK defense weapon. If you make variants that is great and make heavy's roles change possibly, but reduce the ammo on the boundless because it doesn't have a downside or skill requirement which is the most OP effect. Make clip management the downside. Also, if you guys want to change the types of heavies up a bit, make heavies get a racial benefit to a specific weapon variant. It worked for the assaults and commandos. Wouldn't that expand which heavy is chosen. Give the Min Heavy the boudless HMG. Then heavies will be using weapons more based on race. What do people think? this would require a much faster loading time to be viable. Which would negate a lot of the intent. AV
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7533	Posted - 2015.03.05 17:31:00 - [327] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range. dispersion actually HELPS in CQC. the most torturous part of the HMG screwballs in Uprising 1.0 was when the HMG did the laser beam thing. It was insanely hard to apply damage at all the closer you got. Tighter dispersion means more rounds hit, yes, but it's also a much smaller area where aim assist applies bullet magnetism. Exatly, this helps it in CQC. But the argument is that the HMG is too good at range, and in that regard more dispersion is a hindrance than help. being too good at range is a side effect of "too much DPS to begin with." If it's doing as much DPS at range as would be fair as a baseline for overall DPS, is it a better solution to hack the range? or reduce the DPS. Honestly most of the crying for range nerfs is rather reminiscent of the calls in beta to hack the range of the HMG when we had more open ground maps, which made them easy to farm for KD. there's a few things going on here. But the range? Nah. People want the range hacked because for some reason most players have it in their head that if a heavy can do ANY damage at 50m it's overpowered. The range nerf that has been bandied about is a side effect of the mindset that crystallized during beta. Problem is in the gal lab 20 meter optimal isn't going to affect a DAMN thing in the orbital artillery map, the gallente lab underground bunker, Etc. It'll just be easier to farm them on the rare occasion they want to move around. I agree mostly, but I feel like the HMG is justified to have high DPS like it does. The issue is damage application in my mind. Keep it at high damage for when they get in close, but hinder its effectiveness farther out through dispersion. dispersion is already horrendous. In my experience the people who die outside the optimal (unless they are already SERIOUSLY wounded) is they are A: standing out in the open with no cover B: standing still and trying to engage in a gun duel C: running at the heavy D: expecting a prototype heavy with a prototype gun to be UTTERLY worthless at 35m (slightly outside optimal) and treating it as such. Personally I'd rather have a lot less DPS, and a lot more range. AV
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 546	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:04:00 - [328] - Quote Big miku wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: My Flaylock wants some homing missiles, por favor. Now that would cause an out roar, but in a way Titanfall pulled it off perfectly with the Smart Pistol MK5, doubt CCP could do it. He's commenting on the fact that the description of the flaylock SAYS IT CAN HOME IN ON TARGETS, and agreeing with Break'n Stuff about how descriptions on the items in this game "live in another world". Know what cannot be known.
Benjamin Ciscko Negative-Feedback 3645	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:16:00 - [329] - Quote Random1628 wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me... Well I don't know the exact reason for the use of the Amarr and Caldari Heavy Frames, I do know the reasons for using the Minmatar and Gallente and that being speed. Now I use the Minmatar Heavy Frame because of the increased base movement speed with sprint speed of 7.71 with two Kin Cats and the Burst HMG and I'd like to think that I got most of those kills but I don't know for sure and the probably the reason some one/people use the Gallente is for the 7.85 sprint speed but I don't know anyone that uses it. I don't get the caldari but Minmatar is definitely useable with the sprint and strafe over the actual sentinel not sure about gallente but the Amarr is understandable because you have a 2/3 slot layout so if you want to double as a forger but don't want an entirely new suit you can save some sp and get the frame. Fatal Absolution Director http://imgur.com/VwYJUI3
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 81	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:22:00 - [330] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: I have a great idea to nerf the HMG! I think we've kittened around long enough with heat/reload/ammo to know that at this point it is the sheer killing potential that is the problem. Heat/Reload/Ammo doesn't matter when everyone in front of you is already dead. Aeon - We have played around with the DPS of the HMG as well. Nerfing dmg is not going to fix the problem until you get on the razor's edge of balanced. The issue is if the HMG gets a lower TTK than any other gun at CQC, then heavies will change to that gun and it will be the next to be nerfed. You need to change an aspect of the HMG to make it less of a continual death weapon. Heavies are anchored death machines, so make them commit to fewer kills without reducing the TTK. Shotguns currently drop a full armor sentinel in 3 shots. 1.5 seconds per shot. The proto HMG needs to be able to deal more than 2k hp (Most EHP of any suit) in 4.5 seconds. There is the line using math. If you don't then the shotgun will be the next OP weapon to be awaiting its nerf and the vicious cycle. The gun not being on permanent ready is the leveling agent we need to reduce. The other option I had was add in spin up time, like the forge gun, but that feels like it would be too painful and extreme to the HMG. 15 dmg per bullet, 400 bullets roughly per hmg clip, roughing it out a little. 6,000 dmg per hopper. I will say the average suit has 1,000 ehp. That is 6 suits dying to him before he reloads. 15400=6,000 - droping DPS reduces the TTK which will change the gun entirely 15200=3,000 - same TTK, but now team efforts will dig out heavy groups much easier. Simply get them to waste their ammo and use cover. The current dispersion makes range difficult, now it is scary to shoot at target outside of optimal range because reload is 3 seconds of weapons down. Balances out the HMG. Heavy on heavy battles will require a reload typically now too, which will be very interesting. This will cause less outrage and they can slowly turn this dial back. Breakin Stuff wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: I have a great idea to nerf the HMG! What do people think? this would require a much faster loading time to be viable. Which would negate a lot of the intent. What? I am saying make heavies count their bullets because during reloads they are vulnerable. Hell, extend the reload time with this and really make them commit to musket style defense. See where I am going? First line, then second. The heavies with skill will feel some impact but still be able to hold a point. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 546	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:29:00 - [331] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without Rattati's intervention. Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered the module useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix Range Amps if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. That is, if we wanted to ... I distinctly recall being told that "360 Wallhacks" were OP. I love this "we" versus "them" thing you got going, Adipem. It really comes off as ostracizing, like the "we" you refer to is somehow better than Cat Merc and Zatara, especially when you say "if their proposal had passed without Rattati's intervention". It's cheeky, to say the least. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the "we" in this case paints a pretty sure-fire picture of a collective of individuals who are pressing their own particular agenda, because that's kinda what it comes off as. Take a second to set aside whatever arbitrary barrier "you guys" threw up to segregate yourselves and remember that this is still a community and all of our voices are responsible for any changes that happen in this game, please. I believe the "we" he is referring to is everyone who disagreed with the other proposal. Not some imaginary barrier. In any debate between two parties there is us and them, don't try to make this into something more than it is. Adipem has always been extremely civil with and even defended you. I find this little jab a bit treacherous. Know what cannot be known.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7538	Posted - 2015.03.05 20:30:00 - [332] - Quote the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. AV
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 81	Posted - 2015.03.05 21:52:00 - [333] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. Ok, not attacking you Breakin Stuff, but you aren't regularly a heavy in a PC right? (Your previous posts point more to RE scout or assault, playing Sherlock here) When you have other heavies coming at you and you know you have what, 1.5-2 heavies worth of ammo and more than one is walking down a hall. The tactical question always is when do I reload? Even if you have 3 core focus at your back, you are going to die if you can't think this out because during that 8 seconds you will die. I get questioned about when I reloaded last all the time especially in a fire fight with my usual 2 heavies on inside squad. If I have a fresh mag and someone needs to reload, we switch places while the low ammo heavy reloads. We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7540	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:29:00 - [334] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. Ok, not attacking you Breakin Stuff, but you aren't regularly a heavy in a PC right? (Your previous posts point more to RE scout or assault, playing Sherlock here) When you have other heavies coming at you and you know you have what, 1.5-2 heavies worth of ammo and more than one is walking down a hall. The tactical question always is when do I reload? Even if you have 3 core focus at your back, you are going to die if you can't think this out because during that 8 seconds you will die. I get questioned about when I reloaded last all the time especially in a fire fight with my usual 2 heavies on inside squad. If I have a fresh mag and someone needs to reload, we switch places while the low ammo heavy reloads. We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire. Dude, I've got all the sentinels at 5, use them all on a regular basis. I don't scout. I actually do have some knowledge of how the class works. every PC I've been in or FC'd I was in a sentinel suit forging and HMGing. AV
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 81	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:44:00 - [335] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire. Dude, I've got all the sentinels at 5, I don't scout. I actually do have some knowledge of how the class works. So please enlighten me with your POV on how you would fight with half your ammo? Hell, I have tried it, fire off into a wall after each reload half your rounds. Things get scary after killing 2-3 standard suits. Even in pub matches, missing stops being an option. BTW - To equalize - I PC Proto - Full Equip Min Logi, Cal Scout, and Amar Heavy. Best of each world, IMO, GAL Scout is next on the list, but I have been spreading my SP pretty thin. I also like how you used, "Dude" to start that statement out because as an ex-surfer, I say dude a lot still. Don't flame up, just acknowledge my post and evaluate it please. The meat of this thread has been gathering ways to nerf the HMG and provide variances. When ideas like mine are posted, like on the tank hull thread, we need to stay productive and on topic. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7540	Posted - 2015.03.05 22:57:00 - [336] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire. Dude, I've got all the sentinels at 5, I don't scout. I actually do have some knowledge of how the class works. So please enlighten me with your POV on how you would fight with half your ammo? Hell, I have tried it, fire off into a wall after each reload half your rounds. Things get scary after killing 2-3 standard suits. Even in pub matches, missing stops being an option. BTW - To equalize - I PC Proto - Full Equip Min Logi, Cal Scout, and Amar Heavy. Best of each world, IMO, GAL Scout is next on the list, but I have been spreading my SP pretty thin. I also like how you used, "Dude" to start that statement out because as an ex-surfer, I say dude a lot still. Don't flame up, just acknowledge my post and evaluate it please. The meat of this thread has been gathering ways to nerf the HMG and provide variances. When ideas like mine are posted, like on the tank hull thread, we need to stay productive and on topic. the problem is it eliminates ANY margin for error in exchange for... the ability to kill one person at a time. I reload after EVERY kill unless I have multiple opponents ANYWAY. You NEVER have any idea when the next hit's gonna come. being able to hold off because there's a reasonable chance that you're gonna get two more coming at you with 350 still in the drum? that's not overpowering. NOT having that option would be more crippling than the nerfs Rattati is proposing. Also remember I rarely run with a logi partner. even in PC I deliberately put myself on the attack as the big, metal walking distraction. While everyone was focused on killing me my squads would flank, and do things like drop REs down the defenders' pants or just focus them down. Then they'd pick me up and we'd carry on. it worked well. probably STILL work well given the scout/sentinel meta. I'm personally too aggressive for a logi to want to tether himself to me, so I would always exploit it to my team's advantage. Sure, I looked like a dumbass. but the job got done almost every single time. So given the choice between your reduced ammo idea and Rattati's fix? I'd take rattati's fix. AV
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 724	Posted - 2015.03.06 01:04:00 - [337] - Quote This Bright Steel wrote: I believe it's because of the idea that heavies are the best in CQC if you have a logi at his back and of all the heavies amarr take advantage of this the most with all their armor. If we removed the amarr heavy then gal would be the top used and if it was removed then even the min sent would be the most used. Plus this Bright Steel wrote: 3 things come to mind: 1) map design 2) a unit that has BOTH high HP and DPS 3) rep tool being too powerful behind said unit (needs some kind of overheat mechanic and/or nanite consumption mechanic) If we tried to remedy the problem by addressing only one of these issues we will undoubtedly over nerf that aspect of the game. Seems very reasonable to me. Especially this.
Atiim Commando Perkone Caldari State 15884	Posted - 2015.03.06 01:27:00 - [338] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Something needs to be done about those pronto while reining in that Min Assault. There's nothing to reign in. The only advantages the MinAssault has over the others are speed and versatility. In any other aspect, be it health, regen, eWAR, equipment, etc it either performs equally or is inferior to the other Assaults. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2602	Posted - 2015.03.06 05:24:00 - [339] - Quote Atiim wrote: Sgt Kirk wrote: Something needs to be done about those pronto while reining in that Min Assault. There's nothing to reign in. The only advantages the MinAssault has over the others are speed and versatility. In any other aspect, be it health, regen, eWAR, equipment, etc it either performs equally or is inferior to the other Assaults. And yet people are flocking to it in droves, I'm guessing not for the aesthetics. It can have the speed of a scout with easily twice the health, can be dual bricked, and gets a bonus to the already OP CR. It needs reigning in. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 206	Posted - 2015.03.06 06:38:00 - [340] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences. I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. It is black and white. You run max hp sentinels or re scouts to kill sentinels. The combo of both are used to give heavies working passive scans. Python missiles kill everything. Gunnlogi rail kills drop ships from redline. Minmatar assault is rising because it's there's something wrong with it. It's too fast even with plates on it. And it has the same hitbox issues as the cal scout now. Its speed/health ratio is is the best followed by the Cal/Gal then the amarr.... it's speed needs to be toned down or the amarr assault needs to have its hp buffed by the same amount they buffed min with. which is 15 I believe, and one more thing that needs to be done is a stamina buff for all the assaults except for min. the latter is an alternative to nerfing the Min suit though. Director / Slayer / Emperor

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7575	Posted - 2015.03.06 06:50:00 - [341] - Quote Imp at least you have reasons that are backed by something resembling logic usually. Most of the people I argue with can't get past "I don't like it therefore it's bad!" AV
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 729	Posted - 2015.03.06 23:33:00 - [342] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Imp at least you have reasons that are backed by something resembling logic usually. Most of the people I argue with can't get past "I don't like it therefore it's bad!" Same goes for you. Some sort of logic is going on in there so I can respect the time taken to think about it even if sometimes I really can't agree. People not arguing past 'I don't like it therefore it's bad" is just a matter of self humility. If people could admit to themselves in their heart of hearts the possibility that they are completely wrong and take that into account when making statements or arguments -- we would have a lot of people arguing points constructively.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7586	Posted - 2015.03.07 05:27:00 - [343] - Quote 500k ISK says the AScR changes are going to put a sharp halt to the popularity of the min assault. And i will laugh while killing amarr from extreme range. In my covenant C-1 with a militia rail rifle blueprint AV
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 986	Posted - 2015.03.07 11:20:00 - [344] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >28th place >Looks at the weapon >rail rifle >Head desk lol thats probably me framerate>everything else
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2613	Posted - 2015.03.07 14:29:00 - [345] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: 500k ISK says the AScR changes are going to put a sharp halt to the popularity of the min assault. And i will laugh while killing amarr from extreme range. In my covenant C-1 with a militia rail rifle blueprint And my basic ScR will show you the light of God by beaming it right through your face, Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 7588	Posted - 2015.03.07 14:37:00 - [346] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: 500k ISK says the AScR changes are going to put a sharp halt to the popularity of the min assault. And i will laugh while killing amarr from extreme range. In my covenant C-1 with a militia rail rifle blueprint And my basic ScR will show you the light of God by beaming it right through your face, how do those flechettes taste? AV
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3043	Posted - 2015.03.07 15:52:00 - [347] - Quote Nerfs incoming due to data from PC, where everybody uses their best gear and brings their A-game? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 3178	Posted - 2015.03.07 15:57:00 - [348] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Nerfs incoming due to data from PC, where everybody uses their best gear and brings their A-game? To which nerfs are you referring to friend? I'm not saying this to be an ******** or anything but in most successful competitive games top down balancing is usually the way to go. (I.E Balance things based from the top players data. Examples would be Starcraft 2, Counter Strike, Battlefield, League of Legends) Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 986	Posted - 2015.03.08 00:36:00 - [349] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Nerfs incoming due to data from PC, where everybody uses their best gear and brings their A-game? To which nerfs are you referring to friend? I'm not saying this to be an ******** or anything but in most successful competitive games top down balancing is usually the way to go. (I.E Balance things based from the top players data. Examples would be Starcraft 2, Counter Strike, Battlefield, League of Legends) Competitive play is the only true way to seek the full potential of anything. framerate>everything else
H0riz0n Unlimit 504	Posted - 2015.03.08 14:14:00 - [350] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Cat Merc wrote: >Looks at the raw data >Searches for Gallente Assault >28th place >Looks at the weapon >rail rifle >Head desk lol thats probably me Not me for sure, i use duvolle on my gal assault or gal logi, sometimes kalante's :D "Doc DDD is better than you" cit. Extacy cravings; Dead man's game proud member since 09/14. Alt of The KTM(FOTM) DuKe

XxBlazikenxX Y.A.M.A.H 449	Posted - 2015.03.08 16:57:00 - [351] - Quote How many kills has the Breach Shotgun had? Maybe time for a buff? Terrestrial Combat Officer of Y.A.M.A.H Recruitment, Free BPOs!
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 5271	Posted - 2015.03.08 19:27:00 - [352] - Quote XxBlazikenxX wrote: How many kills has the Breach Shotgun had? Maybe time for a buff? Right? I feel like the Breach Shotgun should be awesome on my Gallente Commando due to the damage and reload bonus, but.....eh, doesn't perform much. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 733	Posted - 2015.03.09 02:30:00 - [353] - Quote Can anyone tell me how the ASCR heat buildup feels on a non Amarr suit? I've never used one outside of my Amarr assault. If it is like all the other Amarr guns and the suit is very important to heat buildup then I wonder how many people might switch to Amarr suits. Which will make armor tanking even more prevalent. The meta shakeup from this upcoming patch is going to be fascinating. (and probably take a few months to fully shift around.)
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2614	Posted - 2015.03.09 06:21:00 - [354] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Can anyone tell me how the ASCR heat buildup feels on a non Amarr suit? I've never used one outside of my Amarr assault. If it is like all the other Amarr guns and the suit is very important to heat buildup then I wonder how many people might switch to Amarr suits. Which will make armor tanking even more prevalent. The meta shakeup from this upcoming patch is going to be fascinating. (and probably take a few months to fully shift around.) Overheats in 57 shots, about 3/4 magazine. Cooldown is much slower though. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K RISE of LEGION 484	Posted - 2015.03.09 15:24:00 - [355] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Can anyone tell me how the ASCR heat buildup feels on a non Amarr suit? I've never used one outside of my Amarr assault. If it is like all the other Amarr guns and the suit is very important to heat buildup then I wonder how many people might switch to Amarr suits. Which will make armor tanking even more prevalent. The meta shakeup from this upcoming patch is going to be fascinating. (and probably take a few months to fully shift around.) Overheats in 57 shots, about 3/4 magazine. Cooldown is much slower though. This. The basic difference here between the scrambler and the assault scrambler is: the scrambler overheat is there to keep you from being able to spam damage in a very short time frame with high heat buildup and quick cooldown, and the ascr overheat is there to make you concerned about overheat during long continuous engagements with its much slower buildup but much longer cooldown times.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 18322	Posted - 2015.03.11 03:28:00 - [356] - Quote This is going over to the Archives, thanks for the insights. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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