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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17707
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Posted - 2015.03.03 03:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear players,
the experiments continue on the "share more data" front.
Here is something that some of you fellow number-nutters might enjoy.
The data is all kills in PC for a recent time period.
First column is Dropsuit type and Second column is Weapon type, and the Kills are kills performed in that combination.
Then, the last three columns are basically a one up category on both types, plus the Dropsuit race for further analysis.
You can consider all of these kills performed in prototype gear, that is almost exclusively used in PC.
Quick analysis (just drop the three last columns into an Excel pivot table, race across the columns and some conditional formatting to get the top 10 combinations), gives us:
1)AM Sent HMG, at 2X the next weapo 2)GA Scouts Shotgun 3)GA Sent HMG 4)Python MIssile Launcher 5)CA Scout Shotgun 6)MN Assault ACR 7) CA Sent HMG 8)Gunnlogi Railgun 9)MN Scout Nova Knifes 10)GA Scout Remote Explosives
Picture for reference, and I know it is illegible
Raw Data (csv)
Also to note, MN Assault trending rapidly up, may need reining in soon.
It's also interesting to study, not only the top, but the absolute combinations that are never used. For example, caldari scouts have no kills with nova knives.
Also, Large Basic Frames are being used in PC, that is a conundrum to me...
No-one ever got a kill with an Amarr commando.
That's it, this is meant for the community to discuss, I have to work on some google docs
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17711
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Posted - 2015.03.03 04:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences.
I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17714
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Posted - 2015.03.03 05:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cat Merc wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:well, there is no way in this kind of hyper-competitive and complex end-game could be balanced so that every combination has a place. The best of the best migrate to "best", sometimes actually on orders, not by choice. Tactical commanders simply don't aloow sub-optimal choices in their PC team, regardless of player preferences.
I am actually kind of happy to see that the situation is as flavorful as it is. I expected absolute black and white. Sure, but don't you find the Amarr and Gal Sent with the HMG outstripping together the next 5 suit combinations combined, kind of over the top? Some trends here and there are to be expected, but this is more than a trend in my eyes.
That's the reason we are now, after achieving relative balance overall on Rifles, studying the combinations and see which ones are UP and OP.
First things first.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17720
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Posted - 2015.03.03 06:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17741
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Posted - 2015.03.03 07:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability. At last!
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17755
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Posted - 2015.03.03 09:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:What would be more intersesting is PC deaths.
If heavies have the most kills and the most deaths, would they still need a nerf? Thier K/S ratio twould say a lot more than the blindingly obvious.
Heavies suits are made for upclose point defense, PC is about grabing a letter and point defense. You don't need to redline the other team, you just need the majority of letters and keep them. I would be hard pressed to say its a revelation that heavies have the most kills by a good margin. But if heavy kills are in junction with the rest of the game outside of PC, then nerfing them doesn't make sense.
It aking to saying Logis have the most triage WP by a good margin, therefore nerf. Nobody would be surprised if there was data tommorrow saying Logis on average get 25% more WP
Anothing thing i noticed my end was the claim that the "incubus is fine by proxy" made by Rattati, because of python kills in PC. The highest ranked Proto Incubus has 909 kills on the chart. Only about 7427 kills behind the Python. Just saying.
The HMG K/S is also too high, which is why we are acting on it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17811
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Evan Gotabor wrote:I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly?
Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon.
Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels"
And put more objectives in the relative open.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17811
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:... for a recent time period.
Can you provide us with the specific time frame polled? If this data spans the last 6 months, for example, it may still reflect old trends. Still interested in the answer to this question.
It's from the day before and then some.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17813
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:So I have a serious question, and this is not intended to come off in a snide tone.
But in over six months, there have been no less than five serious, well thought threads on addressing HMG dominance in CQC. There has not been a single dev response, nor any indication that these threads have even been reviewed.
In fact there has never been a non-trolling dev response in any similar thread in two years that I have read.
Why?
Further, Sentinels/heavies have been proven more problematic than worthwhile in a balance perspective, so the answer has been "make them even MORE CQC. More of the same thing that has never worked should work now, right?"
Why are Heavies not being repurposed to dedicated AV and area denial?
Area denial is not room by room brawling. Area denial is what you post at the door/gate to keep people OUT of the rooms in the first place.
Sentinel suit's advantages and disatvantages are TEXTBOOK examples of open-ground, area suppression parameters. But they are being crammed into close quarters.
Why?
The only answer anyone has EVER provided is "heavies are cqc." This is a non-answer that holds as much validity as when I say "because :reasons:"
There is no vision for the heavy suit. They were originally billed as the go-to suits for AV and area denial. What we have is a CQC brawler that performs poorly in an AV capacity compared to lighter, more agile AV options (swarms).
So instead of doing more of the same thing, why do we not separate the role of the heavy, which should be a support platform that assists an assault squad, from the assault, which should be the go-to suit for attacking in CQC? A question I also want answered. Historically and at the same time logically you don't create a heavily armoured unit with massive ordinance and force it into confined conditions. Units like this typically excel as Breaking has said in open field positions, or in defensible position in overwatch. An overwatching unit is one that has taken a position where it can clearly see the terrain ahead and around it to provide clear lines of fire. Moreover having trawled through the thread I never found an answer to Sgt Kirk's outrage either. Why are you converting the Assault HMG into an AV autocannon? You know full well we already have a disproportionate number of Anti Armour AV forms and you want to add more? I don't answer outrages or indignant anger.
To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17822
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Posted - 2015.03.04 05:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:
To address anti-shield concerns, after we add HAV progression, we will add anti-shield swarm launchers, and homing av-flux grenades, probably reduce lock on range on normal swarm launchers and add an anti-air version, most likely a single long range swarm missile to hopefully improve the rendering of incoming threats to dropships.
Would this anti-shield swarm launcher fall under the same skills? Also would it for the game logic be classified as a laser weapon (+20, -20)?
yes,
not sure, or hybrid, laser profile is very un-lorey
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17822
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Posted - 2015.03.04 05:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Evan Gotabor wrote:I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right... there is absolutely ample reason to change/nerf the HMG. My problem is this particular "solution" proposed has been done four times already, and all it did was shift the pendulum the other way. So why not kick sentinels out of CQC and into the open where they can both excel, and be vulnerable to weapons that can kill them rapidly? Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon. Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels" And put more objectives in the relative open. Your logic is sound and I agree with it. I do not agree with the method. It has been done four times before and was an unmitigated disaster each time. I would MUCH rather have the DPS sharply nerfed and the range pushed out. I'd like to see the dispersion reduced because wide dispersion helps in CQC. There was no more difficult time in CQC than when the HMG got buggered up and it had laser beam dispersion. The other frustration I have had is there's a lot of us proposing ways to nerf and change the weapon just so the range nerf could be avoided. Not the damage nerf. The HMG has entirely too much DPS. But the range is the absolute drop-dead "please do not do this" for the vast majority of us who want to work with you to keep the stupid gun functional but not OP. we would like alternative options please. the linked spreadsheet is one example. But this came off as rather like the ADS: like we are percieved as not trying to give active alternatives to the way only a few people claim is working as intended.
why can't we have both, the lower dps, short range hmg and use the burst as the one you are describing, tighter, longer stream, and assault is what we have talked about?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
17911
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Posted - 2015.03.05 06:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Notice how the scrambler rifle isn't up there? Almost like it's not OP or something. Weird. It's right up there, a few hundred kills from the top 10...
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P C C P Alliance
18322
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Posted - 2015.03.11 03:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
This is going over to the Archives, thanks for the insights.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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