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Posted - 2015.03.03 05:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
@ Rattati
Can you provide us with the specific time frame?
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7172
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Posted - 2015.03.03 06:59:00 -
[2] - Quote
John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR
EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. Today, the GalLogi is the only competitive recon unit. It is also the only competitive source of low-dB counter-infiltration (excluding inner Falloff rings).
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7180
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR
EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense?
There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon.
Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision)
Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision)
Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration
Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration.
Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good at sneaking, but they are no longer very good at scouting.
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7181
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
^ How does this relate to the data?
Assuming this data is current (i.e. post-falloff), Scouts have the best odds of ducking GalLogi scans and getting in close enough to the heavy blob to toss REs at it or shotgun it. While I am surprised that their killcounts are so high, I suspect their kills/spawn to be relatively low when compared to that of the blob.
TL;DR: Sneaky Kamikazes.
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7183
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Posted - 2015.03.03 14:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lorhak Gannarsein wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:^ How does this relate to the data?
Assuming this data is current (i.e. post-falloff), Scouts have the best odds of ducking GalLogi scans and getting in close enough to the heavy blob to toss REs at it or shotgun it. While I am surprised that their killcounts are so high, I suspect their kills/spawn to be relatively low when compared to that of the blob.
TL;DR: Kamikazes. It's worth pointing out here that non-RE scout kills outnumber RE kills by a factor of four (at the outside; note that I didn't check past the top thirty results). While it's definitely likely that their K/S is lower than the Sentinel's, I'd wager that the Assault suit's K/S is somewhat lower still; based on the data if scouts and sentinels are to be modified in any direction they both ought to be modified downwards. It's also clear, based on their sheer quantity, that Sentinels are incredibly prevalent (and presumably strong, though strictly speaking the numbers don't state that). It would be interesting to see how many HMG-wielders there would be had Sentinels a wider variety of anti-infantry weapons available to them, with a greater spread of ranges. I'd guess, though, based on the nature of PC (being a skirmish-type match where the city points are of vast importance) that the HMG would still tend to be the most popular of any other heavy weapons we might add. Last but not least, the shotgun is (trailing at half the kills of the HMG, true) the second most prevalent weapon (in that top thirty mentions). It outstrips all four rifle classes. If the HMG is to be modified (and it definitely should be) I'd suggest keeping a close eye on shotgun performance - I expect to see it skyrocket, right behind Six Kin ACR usage.
If the Heavy meta changes -- and hopefully it does soon -- it'll be interesting to see if Scout kills decline alongside Heavy kills. If they do, this would be a strong indication that they were being used out of necessity.
The only other explanation I can think of is that competitive play is perma-scanned at 21dB, which is forcing slayers from their Assault suits into GA and CA Scout suits.
I imagine slayers would prefer to be running Assault. That's what everyone's running in Ambush.
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7184
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor.
I suspect a simpler explanation:
A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both.
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7184
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bright Steel wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Bright Steel wrote: I believe the proliferation of MinASS has a lot to do with how powerful assaults have become as a whole while leaving two without meaningful bonuses. While also being effected by the proliferation of heavy armor.
I suspect a simpler explanation: A Fast and Tanky unit will tend to outperform Fast or Tanky units. The MN Assault is exceptionally good at being both. I agree speed is to high but don't want the suite nerfed into the ground either!!! Here was a nice thread that showed the MinASS was dispaportionatly faster then other assault suits. Will try to find it at lunch Here are the numbers.
All Scouts are 0.2 m/s removed between tiers. All *Assaults are 0.2 m/s removed between tiers.
*Excluding MN Assault, which is 0.3 m/s removed (and is faster than AM Scout).
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7184
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Posted - 2015.03.03 16:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
Meee One wrote:P.S. A 20m SG is a terrible idea .
I don't know where this came from, but I agree. A Shotgun w/ 20m optimal would be a very bad idea.
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7184
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Posted - 2015.03.03 16:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Balistyc Farshot wrote:The biggest problem will be that heavies will start to have a real hard time fighting each other and with the HMG being bad at range it will get horrible at range.
If it becomes a real problem, we could nerf Heavy HP :P
(jokes)
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7191
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Posted - 2015.03.03 19:04:00 -
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The-Errorist wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:John Psi wrote: Scout, whose task should be to EWAR
EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff. The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit. What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration
Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that.
1. Hmmm. May specific numbers will help:
Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m.
Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m.
To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half.
2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions. If you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely engaged in combat with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more interplay and counterplay among different unit types.
3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they've replaced the weakened Recon Scout. Passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play is perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much just like an Ambush match against Nyain San.
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7192
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Posted - 2015.03.03 19:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too.
The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without the Rattati's intervention and Range Amp nerf.
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7195
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:02:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete.
Not necessarily.
For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed.
Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. Which is kinda crappy in my book, not to mention imbalanced; in my opinion, a Low Slot module shouldn't confer a free pass against Backstabs.
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7200
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:38:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: If we can break the blob the reasoning for the nerf is obsolete.
Not necessarily. For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed. Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. This would be kinda crappy and broken, in my book at least. For this reason, I think we should fix inner scan rings at a set value, then pursue extending middle / outer scan rings with Range Amps. All assuming, of course, we want to return range amps and longer range passive scans to play. I was talking solely range amp nerf. I have no issue with the inner ring
Right. Fewer words:
Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance
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7201
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Posted - 2015.03.03 20:57:00 -
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Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: Right. Will retry with fewer words:
Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Stronger Scout Passives = "OP Wallhacks"
Opinion.
Yes, the first is my opinion. The second is Zatara's.
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7207
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Posted - 2015.03.03 21:40:00 -
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Breakin Stuff wrote: I have, the descriptions aren't in the same reality with how the weapons actually perform.
Yo quiero homing missiles for this flaylock, por favor.
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7217
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Posted - 2015.03.04 01:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Have you considered that the HMG is simply in massive usage due to the fact that PC map design heavily favors it because every PC battle is a cargo hub where they are the strongest?
As far as pub data would go, its another simple reason. Most people play Domination ...
So it seems to me that the weapon itself isn't problematic. "possibility" "possibility" "bedrock conclusion"
Your argument lacks foundation. Have you considered the possibility that the HMG might actually be OP?
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7217
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Posted - 2015.03.04 01:39:00 -
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Aeon Amadi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:The range amp nerf was... excessive. Possibly unnecessary, too. The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without Rattati's intervention. Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered the module useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix Range Amps if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. That is, if we wanted to ... I distinctly recall being told that "360 Wallhacks" were OP. I love this "we" versus "them" thing you got going, Adipem. It really comes off as ostracizing, like the "we" you refer to is somehow better than Cat Merc and Zatara, especially when you say "if their proposal had passed without Rattati's intervention". It's cheeky, to say the least. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that the "we" in this case paints a pretty sure-fire picture of a collective of individuals who are pressing their own particular agenda, because that's kinda what it comes off as. Take a second to set aside whatever arbitrary barrier "you guys" threw up to segregate yourselves and remember that this is still a community and all of our voices are responsible for any changes that happen in this game, please.
By "we" above, I mean the collective "we" as in all of us. If "we" as in Community+Rattati want to restore passive scans ...
And yes, I'm calling out Cat Merc and Zatara for being dead wrong. I called them out at the time, and I'll call them out the next time they're wrong. Whether or not you find that "cheeky" matters very little to me.
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7219
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Posted - 2015.03.04 03:42:00 -
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Vrain Matari wrote:Rattati has an unhealthy fondness for using the ehp/dps hammer when finer tools are called for. Was it once or twice that he tried tuning Heat to reign in the HMG?
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7233
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Posted - 2015.03.04 18:41:00 -
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I agree with the content of your message, Aeon, but the delivery struck me as a tad cheeky.
Also, let's not be too hard on them for locking down the meta. As bad as Scout/Heavy 514 has been this year, it is no where near as pronounced and single-moded as the prior year of AR-514.
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7245
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Posted - 2015.03.04 22:08:00 -
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el OPERATOR wrote: 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown.
GalLogi 21dB Scans Prox - 60m, 40-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown
* Will confirm cooldowns in game. I only run two of these.
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7264
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Posted - 2015.03.05 02:54:00 -
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el OPERATOR wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote: 21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown.
GalLogi 21dB Active ScansProx - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown All still countered by the counter, an appropriately dampened Stealth Scout. What we should asking ourselves is whether or not permascan at 21dB is appropriate.
Did we not replace passive scans with active scans on the assumption that they wouldn't be "always on"? That they would improve EWAR interplay? That they would be more about hide & seek and less about absolutes?
Run a dampened Scout in competitive play or be perma-scanned.
^ How is this not an absolute?
I believe that Dampened Assaults should be a viable slayer option in PC; the fact that they aren't artificially inflates Scout usage. To require 3 lows of Assaults to simply "not always be on radar" is to require too much. I say we drop that requirement from 3 to 2. Let them play hide & seek with GalLogis. Let the GalLogi run a Focused Scanner and paint sections of sockets periodically rather than the entirety of a city constantly.
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7290
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Posted - 2015.03.05 15:14:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote: ... I simply get frustrated when people call a weapon OP without considering all data points. Or it could have something to do with the prevalence of armor tank in PC.
I wouldn't be quick to label the ScR "not OP" ... it is presently Nyain San's (Addict, Kaizuka, Milkman, Aki etc) weapon of choice when stomping Ambush pubs, and we know for a fact that these guys don't fool around when it comes to pubstomping.
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7291
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Posted - 2015.03.05 15:37:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:... If it really was that OP, would it not have a larger presence in PC? Not necessarily.
The ScR is notoriously bad against heavily armored sentinels, and PC today is all about heavily armored sentinels. Meta is likely more at play here than the weapon itself. The one unit type the ScR cannot melt in an instant just so happens to be the dominant unit type in competitive play.
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7294
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Posted - 2015.03.05 16:13:00 -
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Vesta Opalus wrote:Archduke Ferd1nand wrote:Also Gal Scout...? You sure this wasn't from last patch? Scouts are irrelevant for slaying in PC now. Only reason to use one is for links and RE's on the same fit. Gal/Cal scouts are still very good in PC with shotguns and remotes. I don't know what game you're playing, but it aint Dust 514.
If your enemy is fielding GalLogi scans (which is the new meta), GA/CA Scouts are still your best options at getting under those scans and getting close to the blob. Assaults make for superior slayers, but they can't beat 21 dB permascan without gimping themselves.
If your enemy is not fielding GalLogi scans, then Archduke's assessment is closer to correct, though the MN Scout's hacks are another great reason to use a Scout suit in PC.
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7297
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Posted - 2015.03.05 16:54:00 -
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Interesting. But why create a separate damage profile for the ScR? Why not apply this proposed profile to all laser weaponry?
(simply curious ... not trying to poke holes in your proposition)
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