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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
896
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Posted - 2015.03.04 21:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:The-Errorist wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff.
The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit.
What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration
Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. 1. Hmmm. Sorry about that. Maybe specific numbers will help: Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 250HP CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m. Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 288HP AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m. * Assumes units are decloaked (85% less range if cloaked). To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half. Meanwhile, a GalLogi with multiple 21dB, 200m, 90 degree scanners covers much more area at greater intensity (and his recon is shared team-wide, with directional arrows). A Field Commander who knows what he's doing will field a GalLogi for recon before he fields an AM or CA Scout.
2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions; if you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely exchanging bullets with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more EWAR interplay and counterplay among different unit types.
3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they replaced the weakened Recon Scout. As of December, passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play are perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much exactly like an Ambush match against Nyain San.
21db scans are only 45-¦ angle and 100m range with I think a 10 second light up and a 30 second cooldown.
RECON was never a "passive" activity until OP scout profile/detection conditions made you suddenly think it is.
PASSIVE RECON was never RECON. Except to scouts that got high on their passives and movement speed to the point of hallucination.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
896
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 21:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:The-Errorist wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Zaria Min Deir wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
EWAR Scouts were put out to pasture with Falloff.
The GalLogi is the only competitive Recon & Counter-Infiltration unit.
What exactly do you mean by the Falloff mechanic removing the EWAR role from scouts? In what sense? There are three parts to EWAR: infiltration, counter-infiltration and recon. Between HF Alpha and HF Charlie, there were two competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration CA Scout - Counter-Infiltration, Recon (long-range / low-precision) Between HF Charlie and Falloff, there were three competitive EWAR Scouts: GA Scout - Infiltration AM Scout - Counter-Infiltration (short-range / low-precision) CA Scout - Recon (long range / high-precision) Following Falloff, there remains one competitive EWAR Scout: GA Scout - Infiltration
Today, passive counter-infiltration and passive recon are both insufficiently potent to compete with GalLogi long-range / low-precision active scans. Since Falloff, the GalLogi has replaced 2 of 3 EWAR Scouts and has become the only source of competitive recon and competitive counter-infiltration. Whether or not this is good or bad is up for debate, but if our thinking is like John Psi's in that "Scouts should be out scouting" then our thinking is out-dated. Scouts are still good for sneaking, but they are no longer good for scouting. 1. You didn't answer his question; you haven't make it clear how having the concentric scanning circles with scan precision falloff, ruined EWAR and somehow suddenly made the GalLogi better in comparison. 2. If anything, having a close range scanning circle with higher precision and a higher than base range scanning circle with lower precision, improves EWAR scouts and makes EWAR in general better with more counterplay (assualts can dampen a litlle, logis can scan a bit, and you can now play with varying zones of precision). 3. Also nothing about the GalLogi or active scanners changed with that. 1. Hmmm. Sorry about that. Maybe specific numbers will help: Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 250HP CA Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 20dB out to 91 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 10dB out to 12m, 20dB out to 29m, 26dB out to 58m. Prior to Falloff, an EWAR-maxed 288HP AM Scout provided passive recon at a fixed 18dB out to 86 meters. Today, the same unit scans at 9dB out to 9m, 18dB out to 22m, 23dB out to 44m. * Assumes units are decloaked (85% less range if cloaked). To summarize, the "effective range" of passive scans has been more-or-less reduced by half. Meanwhile, a GalLogi with multiple 21dB, 200m, 90 degree scanners covers much more area at greater intensity (and his recon is shared team-wide, with directional arrows). A Field Commander who knows what he's doing will field a GalLogi for recon before he fields an AM or CA Scout.
2. High-intensity inner scan rings serve to provide early warning of incoming flank attack, and that's pretty much it. Beyond "I'm being attacked over here" inner scan rings are far too limited in range to provide meaningful recon / counter-infiltration functions; if you're 5-10 meters away from a unit, you are very likely exchanging bullets with that unit. In the absence of GalLogi perma-scan, you are absolutely correct about more EWAR interplay and counterplay among different unit types.
3. That is correct. GalLogi scans are as strong as ever, which is why they replaced the weakened Recon Scout. As of December, passive recon is out, GalLogi active scans are in, and the highest tiers competitive play are perma-scanned at 21dB. Pretty much exactly like an Ambush match against Nyain San.
21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown.
"Passive Recon" was never RECON except to scouts who were high on their passives and their speed to the point of being delusional. RECON is never a "passive" activity. Support, yes. Passive, no.
EWAR, btw =/= RECON. It can be part of it, but you're doing yourself a major disservice by trying to redherring the question and presenting inaccurate figures instead.....
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
|
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
896
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 21:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
@ OP
Not suprised to see the HMG at the top, those who've expressed already that PC is essentially skirmish mode, so Point Defense and PD focused fits are pivotal to success are accurate.
Not suprised either that Scout and Scout tools are also high on the list, they've been very prominent in PCs for a long time, and ideally should be if for perhaps different reasons than they are actually.
I too would like to see more data than just kill charts for PC, though it is a skirm there's so much more going on in general that drawing complete accurate conclusions about any of this based just on a list like this is probably more troublesome than its worth.
@ Rattati- Thanks for releasing this, some info is better than no info provided the wild speculation can be kept in check.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
|
el OPERATOR
Capital Acquisitions LLC
Bad Intention
899
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 00:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:
21 db scans are only 45-¦ angle capture and only 100m range. They also (iirc) only light for 10seconds but are 30 second cooldown.
GalLogi 21dB Active ScansProx - 60m, 45-¦, 15 sec visibility, 10 sec cooldown Creo - 100m, 60-¦, 7.5 sec visibility, 15 sec cooldown Flux - 200m, 90-¦, 12 sec visibility, 30 sec cooldown Qua - 100m, 60-¦, 30 sec visibility, 40 sec cooldown
All still countered by the counter, an appropriately dampened Stealth Scout.
Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner.
This is my Main and Original.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
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