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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
78
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Posted - 2015.03.03 15:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability.
Sounds good. The main question I have is if you can pull the suits that died the most to HMGs. BTW - I am an analyst as well.
I bet the consensus will be that this is Heavy on Heavy/Logi death. The problem is that 10-12 guys go to the inside city for the big fight and 4-5 guys try to cap the outside plus one in ADS (Python).
If the heavy spam is the issue, then the best solution is to make more outside point maps. Heavies can't fight out in the open, rifles take them apart. The CQC combat required to hold a point makes a heavy the best choice and with 2 in city and 2 out, holding the city is a race for the more secure win.
This is the meta. Check out League of Legends and see that they have pushed hard to support their meta. I would not recommend that because it alienates some players.
My advice on balancing out heavies in PC - When we start getting value for holding districts, give more value to the open maps which are not prone to heavies, the bridge map is a good example, same as the table top map.
This isn't a heavy QQ, I run the burst HMG and over heat that thing all the time. I take my risk with my reward. I am surprised that cal heavy isn't higher though because I would want that next to me over a gal for speed and self charging.
The other funny thing is with all the sniper nerfs, now they aren't on this chart at all.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
78
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Posted - 2015.03.03 16:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
The major problem is going to be how the community responds to dropping the dmg on HMGs. As a heavy in most PCs, I agree that our next weapon will be the shotgun and ACR. We may even switch to commandos if we need two CQC weapons.
The biggest problem will be that heavies will start to have a real hard time fighting each other and with the HMG being bad at range it will get horrible at range.
CCP - Take all the guns TTK and ranges and find a place for the HMG. You should be able to do that with spread sheets.
We will also see more min assaults mixed in for the city if this changes. Sorry, they are effective, no complaining about that please. Time to dust mine off.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
79
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Posted - 2015.03.04 16:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
ReGnYuM wrote:IMHO, I think the focus on the HMG rebalance needs to be its range. I think any PC player (or any seasoned vet) understands that if you run at a heavy full-frontal, you will lose. However, on numerous occasions I have have placed myself at reasonable distance and still I have been shredded down. The HMG's reach is just too much for the sockets we're playing in.
As for the Heavy's role, I am pretty sure it has been established that they're PD (Point Defense).
I totally agree. +1
The other thing people need to consider is why a heavy is used for defense fundamentally. They are built for defense or assault over a short distance due to their speed.
Think of this as American football. We have big linemen pushing each other back in forth. The play has to go around this mob or be thrown over it, but don't expect those big guys to chase down a running back in the open or catch a pass. Instead they stop plays through the obvious routes and close off areas.
So the reason for this is that they can't chase, run for cover, or quick assault on a point except as slow ponderous beasts. So they are built for defense where distance is not required.
CCP - If the HMG gets nerfed, what is the outcome you are really driving for? More balanced gun use in PCs?
CCP - Do you want people to use less heavies for defense? That is impossible when PC is requiring specialty of role.
Is the goal to have a diverse set of HMGs used by heavies. If so, please clarify this with the masses because the numbers will not change, just the gun titles.
The assault and scout will have his outside points because heavies are aweful out there but the city will always be for heavies because it is CQC building to building combat. 30m max. I just want to know the long game we are going for with this. I can switch to a shotgun if that is where we are going.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
80
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Posted - 2015.03.05 17:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
I have a great idea to nerf the HMG!
Everyone keeps focusing on range.
That is one factor in all weapons.
Why don't we take the ammo in the hopper down. Then we will see heavies perform closer to the PLC (I threw up a little thinking about heavies with PLCs.)
Heavies will then still be dangerous and use HMGs, but they will be down, reloading more. Using the burst like I do, the heat is the factor that has a huge impact, but bullets are also needed. This will take the time the guns are spraying a crowd down. Don't expect them to disappear from PCs, just expect more percision and team work to keep the HMGs up on the battlefield then.
As a heavy, I yell out, reloading a lot, then step back. Sometimes my logis and I have had to fight with sidearms because the scouts wouldn't let us reload. It makes for more nail biting conflicts. Instead of the back and forth of nerfing ranges and dps.
The HMG needs to continue to out DPS the other weapons at CQC or it will simply be dropped for the next lowest TTK defense weapon. If you make variants that is great and make heavy's roles change possibly, but reduce the ammo on the boundless because it doesn't have a downside or skill requirement which is the most OP effect. Make clip management the downside.
Also, if you guys want to change the types of heavies up a bit, make heavies get a racial benefit to a specific weapon variant. It worked for the assaults and commandos. Wouldn't that expand which heavy is chosen. Give the Min Heavy the boudless HMG. Then heavies will be using weapons more based on race.
What do people think?
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
81
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Posted - 2015.03.05 20:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Balistyc Farshot wrote:I have a great idea to nerf the HMG!
I think we've kittened around long enough with heat/reload/ammo to know that at this point it is the sheer killing potential that is the problem. Heat/Reload/Ammo doesn't matter when everyone in front of you is already dead.
Aeon - We have played around with the DPS of the HMG as well. Nerfing dmg is not going to fix the problem until you get on the razor's edge of balanced. The issue is if the HMG gets a lower TTK than any other gun at CQC, then heavies will change to that gun and it will be the next to be nerfed.
You need to change an aspect of the HMG to make it less of a continual death weapon. Heavies are anchored death machines, so make them commit to fewer kills without reducing the TTK. Shotguns currently drop a full armor sentinel in 3 shots. 1.5 seconds per shot. The proto HMG needs to be able to deal more than 2k hp (Most EHP of any suit) in 4.5 seconds. There is the line using math.
If you don't then the shotgun will be the next OP weapon to be awaiting its nerf and the vicious cycle.
The gun not being on permanent ready is the leveling agent we need to reduce. The other option I had was add in spin up time, like the forge gun, but that feels like it would be too painful and extreme to the HMG.
15 dmg per bullet, 400 bullets roughly per hmg clip, roughing it out a little.
6,000 dmg per hopper. I will say the average suit has 1,000 ehp. That is 6 suits dying to him before he reloads.
15*400=6,000 - droping DPS reduces the TTK which will change the gun entirely
15*200=3,000 - same TTK, but now team efforts will dig out heavy groups much easier.
Simply get them to waste their ammo and use cover. The current dispersion makes range difficult, now it is scary to shoot at target outside of optimal range because reload is 3 seconds of weapons down. Balances out the HMG. Heavy on heavy battles will require a reload typically now too, which will be very interesting. This will cause less outrage and they can slowly turn this dial back.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Balistyc Farshot wrote:I have a great idea to nerf the HMG!
What do people think? this would require a much faster loading time to be viable. Which would negate a lot of the intent.
What? I am saying make heavies count their bullets because during reloads they are vulnerable.
Hell, extend the reload time with this and really make them commit to musket style defense. See where I am going? First line, then second. The heavies with skill will feel some impact but still be able to hold a point.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
81
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Posted - 2015.03.05 21:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design.
Ok, not attacking you Breakin Stuff, but you aren't regularly a heavy in a PC right? (Your previous posts point more to RE scout or assault, playing Sherlock here)
When you have other heavies coming at you and you know you have what, 1.5-2 heavies worth of ammo and more than one is walking down a hall. The tactical question always is when do I reload? Even if you have 3 core focus at your back, you are going to die if you can't think this out because during that 8 seconds you will die.
I get questioned about when I reloaded last all the time especially in a fire fight with my usual 2 heavies on inside squad. If I have a fresh mag and someone needs to reload, we switch places while the low ammo heavy reloads.
We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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Balistyc Farshot
The Exemplars
RISE of LEGION
81
|
Posted - 2015.03.05 22:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Balistyc Farshot wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:the reload time of the HMG is 8 seconds. If you're spending more time reloading than anything else overall there's a defect in design. We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire. Dude, I've got all the sentinels at 5, I don't scout. I actually do have some knowledge of how the class works.
So please enlighten me with your POV on how you would fight with half your ammo?
Hell, I have tried it, fire off into a wall after each reload half your rounds. Things get scary after killing 2-3 standard suits. Even in pub matches, missing stops being an option.
BTW - To equalize - I PC Proto - Full Equip Min Logi, Cal Scout, and Amar Heavy. Best of each world, IMO, GAL Scout is next on the list, but I have been spreading my SP pretty thin.
I also like how you used, "Dude" to start that statement out because as an ex-surfer, I say dude a lot still. Don't flame up, just acknowledge my post and evaluate it please. The meat of this thread has been gathering ways to nerf the HMG and provide variances. When ideas like mine are posted, like on the tank hull thread, we need to stay productive and on topic.
Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
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