HMG dps and range will be toned down, burst hmg will keep current range, assault hmg will be a longer range autocannon with anti-vehicle capability.

hmg nerf yeaaaa heavys with rails inc soon lol or shottys

and to compensate for commandos, you just buff their damage bonus to 20%.

Worst post in a long time...

Shotgun performance is heavily based on the speed and agility of the suit, more then range or damage. You're far more likely to see Heavies switch to rifles before shotguns

I wanna know what PCs you're playing in -- because in the ones I'm playing in virtually every night, nothing could be further from the truth....and the data posted above confirms this as the truth more broadly in PC.

I see your point. We could exclude av from that though to maintain balance with av against vehicles

I would be interested in seing the data about the most used weapons in general. I wouldn't be surprised to see the remote explosives to be just after the HMG. However no need to nerf them right...

Personally, I think it's just coming down to the fact that Range is worth more than raw DPS.

Thank you being clear in post #129 and bring up specific numbers. Also, this needs to be mentioned:
Range amps are now crap and have no value to any suit. On a Cal scout, a complex range amp only adds 5m to medium and 6m to long range.

The concern at the time was how these changes would affect the Heavy/Logi blob. Looking at this data, that concern was well-founded. Imagine if the blob had unbeatable passive scans out to ~30 meters (instead of 10). That is what would've happened had Cat Merc and Zatara's proposal been passed without the Rattati's intervention and Range Amp nerf.

Yes, the Range Amp nerf rendered them useless, but it was a necessary evil. We could fix them if we found a way to extend upon Middle and Outer Scan Rings while leaving the super-precise inner ring constant. If we wanted to, that is; I seem recall being told that "OP Wallhacks" were OP.

Not necessarily.

For reasons, we ruled that "360 wallhacks" were OP. Whatever those reasons were (ask Zatara), they very likely still exist as nothing else has changed.

Further, there's an issue with backstab viability. Today's 5-10m inner ring often gives me time to spot, insta-spin and insta-gank the would-be knifer on my heels. If that 5-10m were to become 10-20m, no one would ever knife me again. This would be kinda crappy and broken, in my book at least. For this reason, I think we should fix inner scan rings at a set value, then pursue extending middle / outer scan rings with Range Amps. All assuming, of course, we want to return range amps and longer range passive scans to play.

Right. Will retry with fewer words:

Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Bigger Inner Rings = Imbalance
Reverse Range Amp Nerf = Stronger Scout Passives = "OP Wallhacks"

the fact is heavies were meant for cqc,

Why on earth would people spec into a suit mentioned for that when swarms, Mass drivers and plasma cannons are light weapons?

A machine gun fits the loosest terms of area denial within military academia but if you are using the logic, then the HMG does a magnificent job at denying Areas.

Once again, reread those weapon descriptions.

So you're saying the fact the the mass driver expressly says it is a Breaching and Area Denying Weapon don't matter cause you don't want it too?

So you're saying tha Mass Driver is not good at Area Denial and the HMG is not good at man murder?

Because they are.

Why are shield damage numbers higher than neutral damage numbers on the proposed example?

Simple, I want the Gallente Assault Rifle to have a place, and currently the HMG encroaches on the rifle range too much. The Busrt will be a longer range, and the Assault HMG will be an autocannon.

Other things we want to do, especially in PC, and this is mainly coming from Zatara, is to distribute the objectives more, and not let the meta be "If I have the city and the two points in that socket, we either win in a 3 point, or just need to get one more and hold the city with our sentinels"

And put more objectives in the relative open.

The amarr heavy frame is used because players that are skilled into the sentinel role can easily skill into the frame and get the 2nd high slot for forge gunning, the minmatar basic heavy frame has a better strafe and sprint speed than the minmatar sentinel and can actually brawl with sentinels sincethe minmatar sentinels resistances are irrelevant in sentinel vs sentinel situations anyway.

noo Alex's HMG = officer breach HMG

Do you mean RoF pushed up for higher DPS?

He mentioned how the HMG, a Heavy Weapon, is encroaching on the Blaster Rifles, a light weapon, Turf as being a concern. So this my be a ploy to get Sentinels to switch to Blaster Rifles. I've seen though his plot, nope, combat rilfe all day.

There is no other heavy weapons, taking away their only weapon now, or forcing it into a "suppression" Role as in reducing its killing power to that of an Rifle will just mean a hot swap to Combat Rifles, again as in what happened at the start of Upraising.

Also, How you solo play your heavy in PUBs don't matter, a majority of Heavies when defending those clustered City points don't have "logi leashes" unless they are pushing or actively defending, they do however have support from those logis in the form of Hives, Scans, and spot heals.

"Not some random player vision of how they think it should be."
Funny how this applies to you more so than me.

No point in arguing with you, You've made it clear you want the Heavy to be "Area Denial without actual area denying weapons" and AV.

Well then I hope you buff the Python then. Swarms already 3-shot even the best fits, and they do -20% damageGǪ

Also, I don't see why you'd need to buff swarms

Sorry I meant Pythons.
If they make the current swarms anti tank and slower with the already mentioned idea for Anti air missiles is there a need to buff the python right off the bat?

That's reminiscent of old CCP tactics of vehicle balance of changing too many things at once and that never went over well.

By the way, some optional terminology changes on the HMG topic:
- Burst HMG receives a range and dispersion buff, becomes standard HMG.
(Short bursts, medium range - typically Minmatar)
- Standard HMG gets a range reduction, becomes assault HMG.
(Short range bullet hose - typically Gallente)
- Assault HMG becomes autocannon, becomes breach HMG.
(Low RoF, long range - typically Caldari)

Also, while we're discussion heavy weapons, may I plant the idea that we're missing a anti-infantry Forgegun variant?
Such as the Tactical Forgegun - 80 m optimal range, 130 m effective range, 1.3 s charge up before skills, can't hold charge, 8 shots per clip, 500 damage per shot at proto, barely any splash damage.

It's not fair (at least I don't see it as fair) to AV to have to need two different variants of missiles to engage both aerial and ground vehicles. Vehicles are fine like this (needing split weapons); they can easily disengage to the redline, call in another vehicle, and recall their current one. But AV infantry don't have the luxury of accessing a supply depot as easily, especially when they're set up on, say, a roof top.

There's no need to increase the effectiveness of swarms agains any ADS. All ADS fits get downed in 3-4 shots of decent AV (keep in mind you're virtually guaranteed 2 hits, and a third if the ADS doesn't run immediately). This is balanced, in my opinion; swarms have the potency to threaten and kill ADSs and ADSs still have a chance to escape. To improve on this damage-wise would put swarms over the edge of balance and make them OP. The only change I'd suggest would be the change to a single missile. (However, there needs to be improvements to dropship threat and target recognition, including early-warning of AV and improved rendering of infantry when approaching).

My idea is to have AV engage different vehicles in different ways. Similar to how Eve has signature radius, velocity, tracking, etc. to balance larger ships against smaller, all AV should have set values against different vehicles. Just for example: forge does full damage to an HAV and 85% to an LAV, lock-on for swarms is base against HAVs but slightly longer for LAVs (dropships are somewhere in the middle/ leaning toward base).

And I wish you the best of luck with that. I fully expect the game to be unplayable for two months following the deployment of the new HAVs. And I have no idea how to avoid that under the current design goals for the new HAVs.

I'll just continue to distract myself with other suggestions.

I could be happy with the standard HMG having slightly more DPS then an AR but with 20m less range and a slow turn speed.

In this way the heavy will have the HP and a solid gun (although not as powerful as it is currently) to be a POINT defense(not city defense). The slow turn speed would limit its "prowling" of the point.

At this point the AR will be able to compete damage wise and the galASS will have the mobility to make it viable.

Then we could have the long range suppression variant breakin has very logically shown to be a great idea and the AV variant that the devs want.

The incubus is there to murder vehicles, its going to get less kills. If you want to farm infantry kills you go Python/Missile turret, so it gets more kills.

I feel like the HMG range nerf is uncalled for. The HMG doesn't hit hard and accurate like a rifle. Instead, it just sprays bullets at a target and hopes enough of them hit. Therefore, instead of nerfing range, why not just greatly increase dispersion? It reduces DPS not by doing less damage at range, but because less rounds are actually hitting the target at range.

Exatly, this helps it in CQC. But the argument is that the HMG is too good at range, and in that regard more dispersion is a hindrance than help.

I have a great idea to nerf the HMG!

Everyone keeps focusing on range.
That is one factor in all weapons.
Why don't we take the ammo in the hopper down. Then we will see heavies perform closer to the PLC (I threw up a little thinking about heavies with PLCs.)

Heavies will then still be dangerous and use HMGs, but they will be down, reloading more. Using the burst like I do, the heat is the factor that has a huge impact, but bullets are also needed. This will take the time the guns are spraying a crowd down. Don't expect them to disappear from PCs, just expect more percision and team work to keep the HMGs up on the battlefield then.

As a heavy, I yell out, reloading a lot, then step back. Sometimes my logis and I have had to fight with sidearms because the scouts wouldn't let us reload. It makes for more nail biting conflicts. Instead of the back and forth of nerfing ranges and dps.
The HMG needs to continue to out DPS the other weapons at CQC or it will simply be dropped for the next lowest TTK defense weapon. If you make variants that is great and make heavy's roles change possibly, but reduce the ammo on the boundless because it doesn't have a downside or skill requirement which is the most OP effect. Make clip management the downside.

Also, if you guys want to change the types of heavies up a bit, make heavies get a racial benefit to a specific weapon variant. It worked for the assaults and commandos. Wouldn't that expand which heavy is chosen. Give the Min Heavy the boudless HMG. Then heavies will be using weapons more based on race.

What do people think?

I agree mostly, but I feel like the HMG is justified to have high DPS like it does. The issue is damage application in my mind. Keep it at high damage for when they get in close, but hinder its effectiveness farther out through dispersion.

Ok, not attacking you Breakin Stuff, but you aren't regularly a heavy in a PC right? (Your previous posts point more to RE scout or assault, playing Sherlock here)

When you have other heavies coming at you and you know you have what, 1.5-2 heavies worth of ammo and more than one is walking down a hall. The tactical question always is when do I reload? Even if you have 3 core focus at your back, you are going to die if you can't think this out because during that 8 seconds you will die.

I get questioned about when I reloaded last all the time especially in a fire fight with my usual 2 heavies on inside squad. If I have a fresh mag and someone needs to reload, we switch places while the low ammo heavy reloads.

We all agree that hitting with a HMG is more about quantity over quality. I am proposing a reduction in quantity, hence reducing the amount of death a single heavy can inflict. Yes, if you charge a HMG you will still die in 2 seconds. If you duck, dodge, and get him to waste his ammo, you can wait for the reload then attack. This will make the HMG a skill based weapon. Like the breach shotgun or the bolt pistol. You don't pray and spray, you focus fire.

So please enlighten me with your POV on how you would fight with half your ammo?

Hell, I have tried it, fire off into a wall after each reload half your rounds. Things get scary after killing 2-3 standard suits. Even in pub matches, missing stops being an option.

BTW - To equalize - I PC Proto - Full Equip Min Logi, Cal Scout, and Amar Heavy. Best of each world, IMO, GAL Scout is next on the list, but I have been spreading my SP pretty thin.

I also like how you used, "Dude" to start that statement out because as an ex-surfer, I say dude a lot still. Don't flame up, just acknowledge my post and evaluate it please. The meat of this thread has been gathering ways to nerf the HMG and provide variances. When ideas like mine are posted, like on the tank hull thread, we need to stay productive and on topic.

And my basic ScR will show you the light of God by beaming it right through your face,