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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 16 post(s)

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6696	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:01:00 - [1] - Quote Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1731	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:12:00 - [2] - Quote You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range.
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1409	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:28:00 - [3] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. From my experience the swarm missile turn speed is really not that great. More often than not, when the DS flies around/behind a building, the swarms (regardless of firing angle) try to follow straight path, hitting the obstacle which is, of course understandable. But frustrating. Swarms seem only to turn fast at the last meters nearing the dropship if the ship itself makes the turn. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
anaboop NECROM0NGERS 145	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:32:00 - [4] - Quote Sounds good, cant wait for this :) tear bucket ready. Fully sick Anaboop trading card
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1409	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:33:00 - [5] - Quote PS. As I have mostly used Wiyrkomi SL with Minmatar Commando, I seem to notice slower lock-on on CBR-7 SL when using it. Which is weird because I thought that my LVL 5 skill should account for the lock on regardless of the meta level of SL used. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6698	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:37:00 - [6] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: PS. As I have mostly used Wiyrkomi SL with Minmatar Commando, I seem to notice slower lock-on on CBR-7 SL when using it. Which is weird because I thought that my LVL 5 skill should account for the lock on regardless of the meta level of SL used. could be an anomaly in the database hierarchy, we can look it up "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derrith Erador 2563	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:48:00 - [7] - Quote Do you have a definitive number for the cooldown of the afterburners? If not, then may I suggest either a 15s or a 20s cooldown? These numbers I believe would keep it from being spammed, but will also allow the skill core grid management to be a skill worth investing into. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
medomai grey warravens Capital Punishment. 963	Posted - 2014.09.05 09:48:00 - [8] - Quote Sounds interesting. Will swarm volleys stop chasing if the dropship is outside their turn radius or do they continue chasing with wider arcs? Edit: Part of the problem with swarm missile tracking is that the missile will follow the dropship's path instead of flying directly at the dropship; making cover pointless as the missiles will follow the dropship's path around cover. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3451	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:07:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive Can't wait to give these a try. I will however point out so long as uplinks can be spammed to high heavean, basic dropships will never be used for their intended role. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
501st Headstrong G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 540	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:15:00 - [10] - Quote Is is possible for normal dropships to have built in CRUS? One's that don't need to activate at a specific altitude? As it is currently, few people fly NDS because they need to take away troops from the ground to do so and an Ads can do just as well why have it's own gun. If NDS had a CRU that was activated no matter the height, it could be it's own bunker at objectives, allowing mercs to fire on the guns and spawn in if there are no uplinks. he increased Hp would encourage AV to try and take it down, in which case a pilot could just get in and fly away. In the context of Planetary Conquest however, I only use NDS when flying to enemy home point or crash landing someplace because of the added troop capacity. Loving the other adjustments however, my Commando MK.o feels so sad no being able to kill things sometimes RESPEC PLEASE After Delta CEO of GODS AMONG MEN Clone Wars forever #Starwars: Battlefront 3 Ace Boone's boy =D

Jebus McKing Legio DXIV 601	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:29:00 - [11] - Quote I guess you are fixing rendering range problems aswell then? It's really awesome being shot at by a couple of swarmers/forgers and you will never know their location because they won't render if you are not within 10m of their location. And being knocked around like crazy when being hit by anything in the wrong spot. And that bug that makes you zoom in while in 3rd person view so you can't see anything except the butt of your ADS. And Incubus surviving when ramming a Python? And ADS ISK costs? I still question the usefulness of ADS and I don't think making it easier to fight them while keeping their high costs is fair. Losing an ADS is too expensive to justify reducing their effectiveness, IMO. So if you make it easier to fight them, please, reduce their costs aswell. kthx
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 143	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:36:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive I am a little skeptical on how this is all going to work out, given swarms current damage against ADS and standard dropships as is. I am more than ok with longer cool downs on the afterburner module, but with increased afterburner module duration. I think that is a great change. I am just hoping swarms aren't going to be still remotely same at their tracking to turn at short angles by something homing. Also a big question mark on how will a dropship now be able to fight back in range and speed. Rattati can we get some video of you trying these new dropship changes out kinda like when cloaks were being introduced? *Always Grey Skies*
BL00DFART warravens Capital Punishment. 2	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:37:00 - [13] - Quote Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust
Gabriella Grey Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION 143	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:40:00 - [14] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: Is is possible for normal dropships to have built in CRUS? One's that don't need to activate at a specific altitude? As it is currently, few people fly NDS because they need to take away troops from the ground to do so and an Ads can do just as well why have it's own gun. If NDS had a CRU that was activated no matter the height, it could be it's own bunker at objectives, allowing mercs to fire on the guns and spawn in if there are no uplinks. he increased Hp would encourage AV to try and take it down, in which case a pilot could just get in and fly away. In the context of Planetary Conquest however, I only use NDS when flying to enemy home point or crash landing someplace because of the added troop capacity. Loving the other adjustments however, my Commando MK.o feels so sad no being able to kill things sometimes Those were called Logistics dropships. No clue if we will get them back anytime soon however. But I have never had an issue with height with the mobile CRU, the issue with it is the dead clone has to bleed completely out first before someone can spawn on it. *Always Grey Skies*
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1410	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:42:00 - [15] - Quote BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 59	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:51:00 - [16] - Quote That's going to be interesting, but I'm a bit afraid of what minmatar commandos will be able to inflict to dropships / ADS. Once again, you come from the fact that afterburners are the most equiped modules. But remember that the afterburner SHOULD NOT be a standardise module. I would gladly use that complex scanner of mine. However we are in the OBLIGATION to fit them in order to survive (and not to lost 500.000 isk). Which limit considerably the ADS fitting capability (I will once more talk about the lack of modules for vehicles. I post about that too many time already, but I guess it's the only way for you devs can understand where is lying your AV problem You set that on your own (with that damn 1.7), at the time you said something like "we reduce the number of modules to balance AV". Now, 9 month later AV aren't still in good shape AND dropships fitting have become as standardised as the roof camping in public. To represent you the lack of modules, I will take something everyone hate : scouts In their current state, scouts are able to obtain good HP, good speed, good firepower and good electronics capabilites, and that's OP. Why do I talk about scouts ? Because the great variety of modules make that they can have at least 5 different fitting each one with a different combat philosphy (scan specialist, kill, hack, deployment and mix of those speciality). Now, what would you think of being a scout if in order not to loose a lot of ISK, you were in the OBLIGATION to fit the cloak permanently and only access to shotguns and nova knives as your weapons ? Even with their great amont of PG/CPU, fitting them would become difficult, and only a dozen of fitting option would become battle proven. However, that's what ADS pilots are enduring... since 1.7, and I will even show you how we fit dropships : choose the target : infantry (missiles)/vehicules (rail) choose your HP/Repair ratio (the only thing we can more or less play with) choose how to give a chance to your 500.000 isk asset to survive (or die trying) : Afterburner Congratulations, your dropship is ready ! The price of a proto vehicle is NOT a problem. However, the time it takes to destroy it is totally wrong. And I'm not talking about collision with textures that appear from nowhere. We need more defensive modules such as specialised hardener or damage control units. I'm talking about them because I play a bit to Eve and there are a lot of ideas to take from there. As an exemple, why don't you add a STRUCTURE to vehicules ? The structure would give more HP (300 for LAV, 600 for dropships, 1000 for tanks), while as a counterpart, you could only repair it on a supply depot. Specialised hardener could also be interesting, keep the generic hardener with a low bonus against everything, and add an anti-explosive hardener that can reduce the damages of 70%. However, it would work only against swarms and missiles. Of course, some of these changes would require client upgrades, but vehicles clearly need a new breath after 9 MONTH without a single addition (no pilot dropsuit, no modules, no return of old vehicles). I know some of the old vehicles and modules are still in the client, otherwise, my Sagaris wouldn't be here, same thing for the overload module. The AV disparity is also horrible (pub and FW), sometime you can slaughter infantry and have no AV answer, and sometime, you just want a dogfight and half the enemy team is already in AV. I see more and more pubs with an important AV threat (and that's good). However, most of the time, those AV guys are ROOF campers with forge-gun and commando swarms who are happy (or idiots), sitting there. To be honest, I have better time using my Incubus on PC against the major corporations which are fielding pilots that are among the best and forge-gun that must be bewitched to obtain such an accuracy. Otherwise, you could add WP for mobile CRU to promote the transport/teamply side of the dropships and change the plates weight see more here. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.
CommanderBolt Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1476	Posted - 2014.09.05 10:53:00 - [17] - Quote Any chance we could make it so in Dropship VS Dropship fights, there is more involved than just Rails winning? Missiles and Blasters do not stand a chance VS a Rail Incubus in dropship combat. -=#[ Gastun's Forge ]#=- MY LIFE FOR AIUR! "I'm wasting away here" - "Get me back into zee fight!
MEDICO RITARDATO Dead Man's Game 272	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:07:00 - [18] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. Plasma cannon? CCP why do you hate shield?
BL00DFART warravens Capital Punishment. 2	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:39:00 - [19] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Wait, you mean us medium frames cant counter everything else other players can throw at us? We need blues with diverse suits/roles to do that? Well, I for one demand a respec right meow! Some people enjoy chess, others checkers. I'm guessing your the latter
Repe Susi Rautaleijona 1412	Posted - 2014.09.05 11:54:00 - [20] - Quote BL00DFART wrote: Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Wait, you mean us medium frames cant counter everything else other players can throw at us? We need blues with diverse suits/roles to do that? Well, I for one demand a respec right meow! Some people enjoy chess, others checkers. I'm guessing your the latter It really shows you haven't touched the no-skill swarms then. They are in the game, they are a counter to dropships, or at least should be. Hope we'll get them working in the Delta update. As for you, continue your merry forging, it's not away from me. I'm sure there's a forge vs. ds thread somewhere where you can contribute. Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome. ~ Isaac Asimov

Zindorak 1.U.P 814	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:00:00 - [21] - Quote Im not really happy as an ADS user but i guess its all for balance. But that being said what do you think is an appropriate cooldown time for Afterburners. Also whats the current cooldown for Afterburners and Fuel Injectors Pokemon master! CCP undo ScP nerf. It hurt my feering very bad
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 730	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:06:00 - [22] - Quote I'm fine with Swarm changes. They need to be able to catch up to the extremely agile ADS in their current format. Afterburner stuff : A duration bonus doesn't particularly help here. You mentioned it yourself, the ADS with an Afterburner can get out of dodge extremely quickly and that fact isn't going to change regardless of whether or not the Afterburner has a duration of 10 seconds or 20 seconds. They'll be far removed from Swarm range in the first 5 in most cases and they'll need to slow down in order to effectively take on infantry in a different location. Fuel Injector : I'm not sure what the motivation for changing this module is. The reasoning for the Afterburner stuff is clear, the ADS is an extremely mobile weapons platform that becomes even more so when afterburners are added to the mix. The cooldown for the Afterburner is such that one never really has to worry about "wasting" its use because, with a 10 second cooldown, you're almost always ready to boost again at a moment's notice. The fuel injector though? Its cooldown is already triple that of the Afterburners at 30 seconds and, unlike the Afterburners, one isn't avoiding guided AV with the fuel injectors activated, they can still be targeted and hit fairly easily. And again, I feel like a duration bonus isn't all that helpful for the situations in which one will actually activate these modules. More likely you'll find that people will turn them on, get away from whomever is firing on them, and then immediately turn them off to start the cooldown timer again. Afterburner/Fuel Injector Tiers : The same issue I brought up in my Vehicle Scanner thread is present with the Afterburner and Fuel Injector modules. Namely that there's still very little incentive in going out and using the higher tiered variants of these modules due to a combination of prohibitive fitting costs and a lack of substantial gain for what they pay in having a weaker fit or a more expensive vehicle. I hope that this is addressed in future hotfixes. Some ideas for addressing this off the top of my head include ... Fuel Injectors or Afterburners giving a noticeably more substantial boosting effect across tiers ... that's all I got. NDS eHP : No complaints from me. They needed something.
Atiim 11856	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:18:00 - [23] - Quote BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Actually, I won't even bother arguing with you. Let's keep this constructive. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6705	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:21:00 - [24] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: I'm fine with Swarm changes. They need to be able to catch up to the extremely agile ADS in their current format. Afterburner stuff : A duration bonus doesn't particularly help here. You mentioned it yourself, the ADS with an Afterburner can get out of dodge extremely quickly and that fact isn't going to change regardless of whether or not the Afterburner has a duration of 10 seconds or 20 seconds. They'll be far removed from Swarm range in the first 5 in most cases and they'll need to slow down in order to effectively take on infantry in a different location. Fuel Injector : I'm not sure what the motivation for changing this module is. The reasoning for the Afterburner stuff is clear, the ADS is an extremely mobile weapons platform that becomes even more so when afterburners are added to the mix. The cooldown for the Afterburner is such that one never really has to worry about "wasting" its use because, with a 10 second cooldown, you're almost always ready to boost again at a moment's notice. The fuel injector though? Its cooldown is already triple that of the Afterburners at 30 seconds and, unlike the Afterburners, one isn't avoiding guided AV with the fuel injectors activated, they can still be targeted and hit fairly easily. And again, I feel like a duration bonus isn't all that helpful for the situations in which one will actually activate these modules. More likely you'll find that people will turn them on, get away from whomever is firing on them, and then immediately turn them off to start the cooldown timer again. Afterburner/Fuel Injector Tiers : The same issue I brought up in my Vehicle Scanner thread is present with the Afterburner and Fuel Injector modules. Namely that there's still very little incentive in going out and using the higher tiered variants of these modules due to a combination of prohibitive fitting costs and a lack of substantial gain for what they pay in having a weaker fit or a more expensive vehicle. I hope that this is addressed in future hotfixes. Some ideas for addressing this off the top of my head include ... Fuel Injectors or Afterburners giving a noticeably more substantial boosting effect across tiers ... that's all I got. NDS eHP : No complaints from me. They needed something. Actually, that might work, increased boost speed rather than increased duration. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Atiim 11856	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:24:00 - [25] - Quote Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 730	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:27:00 - [26] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, that might work, increased boost speed rather than increased duration. Well that was easy. Thanks for responding.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2004	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:31:00 - [27] - Quote Please don't touch fuel injectors, they already have stupid long cooldowns even with core skills, are a pain to fit on most vehicles, and longer duration won't help much as you only really need it long enough to escape then you turn it off. Only change that should happen is nerfing them on Madrugars since they seem twice as potent on them than on Gunnlogies or, heck, even my LAVs.
BL00DFART warravens Capital Punishment. 2	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:37:00 - [28] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Wait, you mean us medium frames cant counter everything else other players can throw at us? We need blues with diverse suits/roles to do that? Well, I for one demand a respec right meow! Some people enjoy chess, others checkers. I'm guessing your the latter It really shows you haven't touched the no-skill swarms then. They are in the game, they are a counter to dropships, or at least should be. Hope we'll get them working in the Delta update. As for you, continue your merry forging, it's not away from me. I'm sure there's a forge vs. ds thread somewhere where you can contribute. Awww, you caught me. I've never used swarms past STD level, when I saw how EZ it was to hit a target I never thought it was meant as a hard counter for anything. More of a nuisance, or to provide aid to the real AV (heavys and tanks) when it became too much for them to handle on their own. But I guess I was wrong, and soon scrubs like yourself will rejoice with these changes. P.S. I don't forge gun, but I like it when someone in my squad can. Teamwork is OP
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2004	Posted - 2014.09.05 12:38:00 - [29] - Quote Also, any word on buffing CPU/PG on the STD DSs? The hp buff is fine but it's still hard to fit them with decent turrets and a viable tank. Also, will the +1000 hp be to the vehicle's specific tank or spread to both shield and armor?

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6706	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:06:00 - [30] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Also, any word on buffing CPU/PG on the STD DSs? The hp buff is fine but it's still hard to fit them with decent turrets and a viable tank. Also, will the +1000 hp be to the vehicle's specific tank or spread to both shield and armor? not entirely decided yet. Probably in the same ratio the current ehp is. A CPU/PG buff is not out of the question. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


iKILLu osborne Dead Man's Game 280	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:40:00 - [31] - Quote fuel injector is this derp tanker's best friend please leave it be. ads desrves a price reduction, but not a big one (7%?), cause you don't want people spammin it. if no isk reduction for ads at least fix friendly rdv collision issue "uh guys" "i got to go back to the depot that installation made me crap my dropsuit"
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 37	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:42:00 - [32] - Quote Ads and ds pilot here. I don't really mind most of these changes as the swarm is more threatening to tanks than dropships, and forges and rails are worse for me, but as most forgers can quite easily kill an ads before they get killed, especially if they are close to cover, I would like to see a small buff to ads pg, cpu and ehp (no where near the 1000 to nds but around 200 -400) I would also hope for a reduction in collision damage as ramming mlt ships are a common enemy. The main problem with why ads's are considered an instant win by any infantry is because of the price. The fact a adv fitted ads is ~410k and a proto is ~500k means the pilot needs to have no deaths for 2 - 3 matches. Currently a good pilot survives 1 - 1.2 matches per lost ship. I therefore request a reduction in price such that an advanced ads fit costs around 200k. This means ads prices are 120k. I know this is a massive reduction, but we are much less survivable than tanks and tanks are still cheaper. Final request is a slight change to afterburners. I agree you can increase the cooldown time, and the active time doesn't really need to be increased (I quite often turn off my enhanced afterburner before its fine because I'm going up too quick or I'm already at max ceiling) but I request a change to the way the afterburner works. I want it to increase overall maneuverability so I can still go up more quickly with it on, but I can also go down more quickly and turn much more quickly to help me to duck into valleys and gaps in the terrain to avoid swarms/forges, so my only defence is not just going up to max ceiling. Thanks for reading Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 37	Posted - 2014.09.05 13:46:00 - [33] - Quote iKILLu osborne wrote: fuel injector is this derp tanker's best friend please leave it be. ads desrves a price reduction, but not a big one (7%?), cause you don't want people spammin it. if no isk reduction for ads at least fix friendly rdv collision issue to anyone with ears rdv's aren't really a problem except when they first spawn, and to help with that id recommend making their blip appear on radar and their sound a couple of seconds before they spawn when they are invisible. Read my post about the price, it's a huge decrease and it still only just makes them profitable, and there will be no where near as many of them as there are tanks Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6710	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:09:00 - [34] - Quote Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3452	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:13:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? 200? I want to be able to at least break even If I loose one and win the match! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6710	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:18:00 - [36] - Quote Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2550	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:27:00 - [37] - Quote As an AV gunner I would suggest 200,000 Rattati. In my experience a skilled forge gunner can consistently kill an ADS between 30-50% of the time. Once the swarm adjustments go hot we are going to see a brief spurt of ADS dropping like hailstones then enjoying a lower survival rate than they have now as the pilots adapt. I would err on the side of a slightly larger price break as losing one in a match means a pilot breaks even at best if yhey use free dropsuits for the rest of the match. Only AV fits tend to have survival costs as bad as that on the infantry side. (Right around break even) assuming you run ADV. STD cant fight anything but MLT dropships.
Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 102	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:51:00 - [38] - Quote Hey Rattati that can work, but I have a completely different propositon : - Keep the swarm launcher as it is now - Make the useless assault variant effective against dropships, so faster with a slightly longer lock-on range but less agile and reduced damage (like 15%). - Don't touch ADS (except the cost) and maybe a slower recharge rate on the afterbunner.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 2238	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:10:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Vehicle prices should be balanced around ISK efficiency. Total value of all assets destroyed by ADS / number of ADS destroyed. Do this over a reasonable timeframe and you should have a good idea of what they should cost. Best PvE idea ever!
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 60	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:10:00 - [40] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Why are you guys so obsessed with the ISK reduction ? While it is a real ISK sink when you train those and learn to fly, a fully prototype dropship is in league with the cost of prototype tanks. And if you reduce the ISK cost, ADS will be cheaper than a prototype tank while being a more tactical asset. This would make no-sense. Please, do NOT reduce the price of ADS ! This would be completely stupid ! CCP Rattati wrote: reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. It is all what it is about ? Kill death ratio of pilots ? Look, I'm clearly not the best pilot ever. However I have done enough fights in pub/FW/PC to know my job. A good AV teamwork (I'm thinking in particular to forges in PC who are doing that for a very long time now) can prevent a dropship from doing massive kills. Otherwise, there would be 4 to 5 dropships in each side of every PC. Where we do massive kills is in pub and FW when whole teams are camping on buildings/towers (thanks the logistics guys in gorgon and viper for that). And seriously, these days, I do more kills with my dren sentinel and dragonfly scout than with a proto ADS (look at your numbers damn it ! Most of the dropships that are doing massives amont of kills are the ones with the gunner glitch). The only way my Incubus is surclassing my infantry gear, it is at taking down dropships. But that's 18.000.000 SP and hundreds of millions of ISK spent, and I don't even count the hours needed to master the dropship and evasive actions. Anyway, I feel I spend to much time trying to suggest improvements to vehicles gameplay by writing logical things. In a way I should have expect that. I'm dropship pilot, I saw so much absurd things in a year and six month of game to be surprised by anything. Do whatever you want, but you can't take the sky from me. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.

Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 186	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:38:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. Let's really try to keep this constructive My concern with this change here is that one of my primary swarm techniques is to lock on and duck behind a wall and angle my launcher so the missiles fire around the wall and go after the target. This protects me more than you think, as I'm able to fire around corners, i can prevent taking more fire or even break contact and relocate while my swarms to their thing. Unfortunately, most walls will be at 90 degree angles or more when i release the swarms. Will they still be able to turn decently enough to use this technique? Although, this technique is mainly against tankers but still I hate to think that the swarms will travel in a really wide arc thus, more likely to hit other obstructions than anticipated. Especially when fighting in close quarter areas with tanks in the streets. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
Atiim 11859	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:39:00 - [42] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Neither do I, but if the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run them then there'd be no point in the speed buff. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 15	Posted - 2014.09.05 15:40:00 - [43] - Quote I agree to the increase in speed & acceleration to the swarm; however, the turn radius of the missiles I deem irrelevant. I strongly disagree with any kind of buff to the dropship. Why? Because the issue is "skilled dropships" taking a bit of damage, flying away real quick, then returning shortly at full strength, only to pretty much do the same thing all game long & all while eating up infantry. If you're in the open air, you should be vulnerable. Now this does not seem to be such an unfair tactic, especially in a skirmish with multiple objectives: however, in domination it does seem a bit unfair. Now, an unskilled player in a dropship, in the same scenario, would get taken out due to Darwin's Law of Natural Selection. My point? Giving a buff to the dropships affects the natural order that already exist when it comes to dropship pilots because you ultimately are aiding the weak; whereas, the strong or skilled pilots will endure in any case. If indeed a buff is granted for the dropships, then in addition to the increased speed of the swarms, please give the swarm an extra 50 meters of locking range. That is all.
Soulja Ghostface MCDUSTDONALDS Top Men. 2706	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:08:00 - [44] - Quote Tbh. In this current build, If AVer/s forces a dropship to flee before or during the ads descent to get kills. Then they are fufilling their role as anti vehicle when the dropship has no value to it's team if it's not doing anything but running. In the event that a python/incubus is taken down (which is relatively easy if they don't flee or are to slow retreating) not only is the team hurt by missing a body. The pilots wallet is hurt for 2-4 matches if they run those matches in free suits, And that is just to break even let alone gaining a profit. Most smart pilots will fly to their mcc and recall their dropship to save isk when they feel that the AV is too strong. And that is also fulfilling the role of ANTI VEHICLE as well. A price reduction is needed on the account of assault dropships. Also buff python shields along with the other shielded vehicles!!! EDIT: May we look at ads controls with KB/M for legion...Soon TM Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4786	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:10:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. My two cents: Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage. Current: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW. Proposed: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4786	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:25:00 - [46] - Quote Soulja Ghostface wrote: Tbh. In this current build, If AVer/s forces a dropship to flee before or during the ads descent to get kills. Then they are fufilling their role as anti vehicle when the dropship has no value to it's team if it's not doing anything but running. In the event that a python/incubus is taken down (which is relatively easy if they don't flee or are to slow retreating) not only is the team hurt by missing a body. The pilots wallet is hurt for 2-4 matches if they run those matches in free suits, And that is just to break even let alone gaining a profit. Most smart pilots will fly to their mcc and recall their dropship to save isk when they feel that the AV is too strong. And that is also fulfilling the role of ANTI VEHICLE as well. A price reduction is needed on the account of assault dropships. Also buff python shields along with the other shielded vehicles!!! EDIT: May we look at ads controls with KB/M for legion...Soon TM A single ADS forcing multiple units into AV gear all but guarantees a steamrolling. I don't think that this is ok. I'd rather ADS be inexpensive and than be a push-button steamroll for proto stompsquads. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Soulja Ghostface MCDUSTDONALDS Top Men. 2706	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:37:00 - [47] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Soulja Ghostface wrote: Tbh. In this current build, If AVer/s forces a dropship to flee before or during the ads descent to get kills. Then they are fufilling their role as anti vehicle when the dropship has no value to it's team if it's not doing anything but running. In the event that a python/incubus is taken down (which is relatively easy if they don't flee or are to slow retreating) not only is the team hurt by missing a body. The pilots wallet is hurt for 2-4 matches if they run those matches in free suits, And that is just to break even let alone gaining a profit. Most smart pilots will fly to their mcc and recall their dropship to save isk when they feel that the AV is too strong. And that is also fulfilling the role of ANTI VEHICLE as well. A price reduction is needed on the account of assault dropships. Also buff python shields along with the other shielded vehicles!!! EDIT: May we look at ads controls with KB/M for legion...Soon TM A single ADS forcing multiple units into AV gear all but guarantees a steamrolling. I don't think that this is ok. I'd rather ADS be inexpensive and than be a push-button steamroll for proto stompsquads. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KNSdD8PYgY That would be true if vehicles were a "Push to stomp button". but as seen in the video, No matter how much they kill and how much AV the other team switches to. The team with the "unkillable death machine" (similar to an ads) loses. Why is that? Because until vehicles can hack stuff (Which will thankfully never happen...Soon TM) They will be always be a force multiplier. And if you take a horrible team and double it's effectivness you get a okay team. But that okay team will never compare to a good team. Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 37	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:40:00 - [48] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? The problem is if a fully fitted ads fitted with advanced gear (adds~80k) costs any more than 250k it becomes unprofitable. 90% of ads pilots are in the air less than half the time at the moment, or they get funds from a rich friend Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 749	Posted - 2014.09.05 16:43:00 - [49] - Quote tbh the swarms shoudl also be equal armor/shield damage seeing as we don't have any valid arrial AV for shield tankers, all AV currently available is + vs armor, all except the plasma cannon and tbh its not like you're gonna be knockin pythions out the skies with plasma cannons. i'd say remove the -20% to shields/+20% to armor and have it +/-0% and have the proficiency left as is. that would help greatly vs gunloggi and pythons. i'd be interested to see how these changes work though, its deffinitly gonna be a step in teh right direction. the issue i've always had is i can fire 3 volleys off from my wiy SL, the first will hit and teh incubus/python will just accelerate up and forward and simply outrun the 2nd and third swarms, increasing their speed and increasing their flight time would be the closest to a true balance. they need to be able to harrass a talented ADS/DS pilot but destroy an useless/average DS/ADS pilot Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:12:00 - [50] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Wrong, the only time an ADS can outrun swarms is when they're right on the max lock on range, then boost out immediately to avoid the swarm. They get hit if they're any closer and slower on the AB every single time. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. Yes, another way to help the lazy that don't know what teamwork means is to buff AV. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. [/b]They turn greater than 90 degrees, they go fully around 2 corners of a building.[/b] 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. That's actually surprising. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. Yes, reward lazy infantry behavior by nerfing vehicles, again. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive Of course, the answer isn't CCP's motto, "HTFU," which they seem to drop for Dust, but instead, to nerf vehicles and buff AV. Nevermind, that infantry want the easiest solution which combines the least amount of ISK, SP involved, and thinking. So many fools jump into the middle of the road where a tank is, get off one volley, get cut down, and continue to do the same thing the entire match. Then they get on the forums and complain that they can't destroy tanks, deliberately not mentioning they went after the tank solo, while the pilot was paying attention, in a trash suit, probably using Darkside CBRs. I'm keeping it constructive, while also providing some critical analysis. Pilots for many months have been telling infantry how to destroy them. They don't take the advice, continue on their slow, lazy ways, then ask for vehicle nerfs and get them.

JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:14:00 - [51] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: tbh the swarms shoudl also be equal armor/shield damage seeing as we don't have any valid arrial AV for shield tankers, all AV currently available is + vs armor, all except the plasma cannon and tbh its not like you're gonna be knockin pythions out the skies with plasma cannons. i'd say remove the -20% to shields/+20% to armor and have it +/-0% and have the proficiency left as is. that would help greatly vs gunloggi and pythons. i'd be interested to see how these changes work though, its deffinitly gonna be a step in teh right direction. the issue i've always had is i can fire 3 volleys off from my wiy SL, the first will hit and teh incubus/python will just accelerate up and forward and simply outrun the 2nd and third swarms, increasing their speed and increasing their flight time would be the closest to a true balance. they need to be able to harrass a talented ADS/DS pilot but destroy an useless/average DS/ADS pilot So you want reaction time nerfed, is that it? You want someone's brain drugged and slowed down to make it easier for you?
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:21:00 - [52] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Soulja Ghostface wrote: Tbh. In this current build, If AVer/s forces a dropship to flee before or during the ads descent to get kills. Then they are fufilling their role as anti vehicle when the dropship has no value to it's team if it's not doing anything but running. In the event that a python/incubus is taken down (which is relatively easy if they don't flee or are to slow retreating) not only is the team hurt by missing a body. The pilots wallet is hurt for 2-4 matches if they run those matches in free suits, And that is just to break even let alone gaining a profit. Most smart pilots will fly to their mcc and recall their dropship to save isk when they feel that the AV is too strong. And that is also fulfilling the role of ANTI VEHICLE as well. A price reduction is needed on the account of assault dropships. Also buff python shields along with the other shielded vehicles!!! EDIT: May we look at ads controls with KB/M for legion...Soon TM A single ADS forcing multiple units into AV gear all but guarantees a steamrolling. I don't think that this is ok. I'd rather ADS be inexpensive and than be a push-button steamroll for proto stompsquads. You're trying to say a force multiplier is a bad thing. Maybe the US military should issue snipers only 10 rounds with no sidearms, to make it more fair for terrorists to kill them. We'll also give SAW gunners 30 round magazines and tell them to make do with what they're given. We should also tell the carriers to deploy their aircraft for CAP, instead of ground support. We'll also only use bombers to bring back the Cold War posture, instead of dropping 2000lb bombs on reinforced bunkers. And instead of building up bases in AOs, we'll just paradrop the troops, then extract them daily, not allowing operations at night. That would make life easier for terrorists. The same parallels can be drawn here. Let's remove vehicles so infantry doesn't have to worry about them. Let's have a completely 2D game that is separated from Call of Duty merely by 50,000 years of lore.
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:23:00 - [53] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. My two cents: Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage. Current: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW. Proposed: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW. And there it is, the ideal goal is to solo the best pilots in the game, the ones that have been in their preferred roles for over a year. And ultimately, they want the removal of vehicles so this is merely Call of Duty in space.
Titus Stryker Ancient Exiles. 429	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:25:00 - [54] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive Like all the suggestions, hope this works out well... Twitch & YouTube
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2555	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:46:00 - [55] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. My two cents: Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage. Current: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW. Proposed: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW. And there it is, the ideal goal is to solo the best pilots in the game, the ones that have been in their preferred roles for over a year. And ultimately, they want the removal of vehicles so this is merely Call of Duty in space. I do believe the proposed scenario there would require two swarms in tandem. Not horribly unreasonable given that a forge gun can solo crash an ADS. Plasma cannon is a joke. I managed to kill an ADS once with it because the pilot horribly screwed up coupled with a one-in-a-million lucky pair of shots. I haven't even come close to repeating that trick since
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 181	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:58:00 - [56] - Quote 1) & 2) Swarm speed increas, it only makes sense if your goal is to have every single volley from every single swarm launcher fired within 175 meters to land. regardless of distance and where they were aiming and how fast or which direction you were flying. 3) It doesn't matter whether or not swarms can turn at 90 degrees, if they are more manuerverable than a drop ship then they will still hit. You don't avoid swarms by flying behind buildings, you fly behind buildings to break the line of sight, so they cant lock on in the first place. Tanks only manage this by hugging the building or the edge of the terrain they engage behind. By the way i wont have time to get behind a buidling because the missiles are flying faster than i am no matter what i do. So this 'balanceing move" is redundant. 4)Okay. 5) Don't have a problem with this. 6) Useless. The only counter measure to swarm launchers was speed. It doesnt matter if i'm traveling for slower longer as long as its still to slow to get away from missiles then whats the point. 7) Still useless. If swarms are being designed to take down a Assault Dropship, what makes you think a much slower ship will stand a chance. Also, the other ships are only used as elavators to get ontop of towers and rarely as transport because the WP rewards are ridiculously low. unless you get 90 % or more of your squads WPs in the minute since you dropped them off there no point in being a dedicated transport pilot. Now i got to worry about kamikazee ships with more eHP than me. ISk price reduction. 150,000 for a fully fit ship. It seems you want the ships to be much easier to kill and much more disposable to the point where you feel every AV players has the right to shoot you down regardless of how you play. Three rounds from 1 wyrokami launcher is near certain death, heaven forbid the opossing team brings out a second one. Your trying to turn the dropship into a glorified LAV. Hell you can tank out a lav with nearly as much HP asa python. The price should reflect that. TL;DR Still pissing on pilots and telling us its rain Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2556	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:03:00 - [57] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 735	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:06:00 - [58] - Quote Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Have you flown A/DS at all?? "Failure to be aware" is an utterly ridiculous statement to anyone who has flown at least half the time Swarms don't render properly: the first time you know there is AV is when your ship lurches to one side and loses a big chunk of HP. Then, as you react you get hit by the second one. With the proposed changes, any ADS will be incredibly lucky or even more twitchy than previously if they want to survive. As always Atiim, your posts show your utter lack of concern for a balanced debate. Quite simply,a dropship is lucky if Swarms render properly and to determine if a person I carrying AV weaponry requires the DS to be so low that someone could probably knife it to death. Monkey MAC wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? 200? I want to be able to at least break even If I loose one and win the match! Agreed. Many times people have stated that ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor: if we're going to get humped every time a Swarm volley fails to render then I want to be able to break even...at all! Currently it's almost impossible (only possible if you perform exceptionally and get upwards of 450k ISK) if you lose a single ship. With the notion that a single Swarm user should have a good chance of knocking us out of the sky 1v1, then I want a freaking huge price drop. 200k for the hull should be the worst case scenario: 150k would be much more reasonable, considering the intention of this pass is to make ADSs die more. Alt of Halla Murr.
Cass Caul 1122	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:09:00 - [59] - Quote The impotence of the Swarm Launcher also has a lot to do with its very low range. It needs to have its range doubled. At present, after the first volley a DS can back away. The mobility of Infantry with swarms is very little. The DS can look for the location of the Swarmer, and rush back in to them. The ADS can get within firing range of the Swarm Launcher before the lock on is complete. On Hiatus.
Soulja Ghostface MCDUSTDONALDS Top Men. 2708	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:14:00 - [60] - Quote I like 150k for the hull as xt missilles will bring it to around 250 (Not looking at the numbers right now) and the modules will bring the fitted ads cost to what the hull used to be. Around 320k 1 match without dying will get you close to almost breaking even. 2 matches without dying gains a profit. Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 181	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:24:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it. I blame others for my performance issues Sure theres no risk at all, we just afterburn in a mad panic to get 400 meters away as soon as ONE swarm volley hits us because you know we feel like it. Because as we all know, dropships never get shot down, ever. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4793	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:31:00 - [62] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. My two cents: Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage. Current: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW. Proposed: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW. And there it is, the ideal goal is to solo the best pilots in the game, the ones that have been in their preferred roles for over a year. And ultimately, they want the removal of vehicles so this is merely Call of Duty in space. Two proto swarmers don't qualify as "soloing". Operative word being two. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2558	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:44:00 - [63] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it. I blame others for my performance issues Sure theres no risk at all, we just afterburn in a mad panic to get 400 meters away as soon as ONE swarm volley hits us because you know we feel like it. Because as we all know, dropships never get shot down, ever. not by swarms they don't. By me? all the time. Because forge gun. You're welcome.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 227	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:51:00 - [64] - Quote MEDICO RITARDATO wrote: Repe Susi wrote: Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. Plasma cannon? You'd simply cannot expect people to hit a drop ship with a Plasma Cannon. I'm REALLY good with one, and unless the drop ship is staying still, or making a really close fly-by, I can't hit them without being really, really, really lucky. Most people couldn't hit a DS is it was only 30m away from them and staying still. Average Joe simply doesn't have the skills required to use the PLC in any meaningful way. And you know what, I've only ever killed DSs that are already practically dead with my PLC before. It takes 12 seconds, or 3 shots to kill a typical DS with one, that is more than enough time for the DS to activate their ABs to escape, return, kill the Cannon user, then activate their ABs to escape again. As a aviation pilot, your going to have to get used to the idea of getting killed by lock-on weapons, because you have the ability to easily dodge anything else.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1699	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:11:00 - [65] - Quote As long as the nerf to ab cooldown (which, speaking as a pilot, I don't have an issue with) is not insane, like 80 seconds, then this will be good improvements. I'll say between 15-25 second cooldown. Shoot Scout with yes.
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 269	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:16:00 - [66] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: As long as the nerf to ab cooldown (which, speaking as a pilot, I don't have an issue with) is not insane, like 80 seconds, then this will be good improvements. I'll say between 15-25 second cooldown. As much as I think this will break ADS (it would be interesting to see graphs for usage before and after delta patch looks in Rattati's direction) I do love the idea of Afterburner's having a longer cooldown. The current (what is it, 10?) seconds is achieved by the time the dropship, which has afterburned away, flies back to its target for "act 2". As for how to fix Swarm/ADS balance, giving a solution that already exists elsewhere in the game, see here.
Finn Colman Black Talon Company 38	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:26:00 - [67] - Quote Evan Gotabor wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Why are you guys so obsessed with the ISK reduction ? While it is a real ISK sink when you train those and learn to fly, a fully prototype dropship is in league with the cost of prototype tanks. And if you reduce the ISK cost, ADS will be cheaper than a prototype tank while being a more tactical asset. This would make no-sense. Please, do NOT reduce the price of ADS ! This would be completely stupid ! And what about starting pilots, like me? It's quite a steep price to pay to learn one role, and as you said it's not an easy thing to learn... My basic A/DS (that is a basic tier A/DS--due to the fact that A/DS are not really tiered--with basic modules and one militia turret) costs me just about 354,750 ISK Perhaps an actual tiering system for A/DS is in order to define the new pilots, and the veterans as well as the price points of each.
CELESTA AUNGM Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 256	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:41:00 - [68] - Quote I have mixed feelings about this proposed change,.. becasue I am not an ADS player (not even a reluctant one) and I'd like to see MORE divide of the ADS and DS (aka NDS) into their more distinct roles and strengths in the fight. I'd hate to see generic speed modules and generic hardening modules that give both ADS and NDS the same plain survivability odds against Swarms. It's okay to introduce the STD version of a dropship as simply a blaster-turret armed platform with a weak shell. This encourages a player to skill up into higher teir DS chasis choices in the hopes of dealing with Swarms. But once a choice is made to go either DS or ADS, let each TYPE of dropship rely on a DIFFERENT strength in combatting Smarmers. If it's an ADS's "role" to dash in and aggressively attack specific targets, give them higher enate speed, so that shorter-duration Afterburners and Injectors help ADS players way better than they can help Transport-DS players. (Do NOT increase the ADS's cpacity for gaining better speed boosters during higher tiers or SP---reward an ADS with better GUNS as you progress). If the TRANSPORT-DS or NDS has the "role" of loitering longer and managing troop interaction, give it default help that benefits its shield/armour, not speed. Keep the duration of Afterburners/Injectors so short they can't help the NDS much, and make players aware that choosing an NDS means your ambition should be to skill into sheild/armour upgrades as you progress. In both these examples, I'm suggesting we keep the "on-period" of all speed boosters SHORT. The intent in a DS-vs-Swarms match, should be to encourage short-term speed bonus modules that work better on ADS models... and shield/armour modules that favor the NDS models more than ADS. Perhaps in the future, if Logistics models are reintroduced, the advantage of going Logi might be to have enough extra slots to start harnessing modules for BOTH protection and speed in the same fitting. (where ADS or NDS players must pick either-or). Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne... No story can have life without writers and publishers.
Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 509	Posted - 2014.09.05 19:54:00 - [69] - Quote In the 200k region for ADS' and making incoming swarms visible 100% of the time, not 10%. Then I'll agree to this. Its just simply too expensive to fly ADS regularly if something thats invisible 90% of time can keep hitting me and be unable to escape from it without ridiculously evasive action. Forge Guns I have no issue with as I can see the shot. Until that rendering bug is fixed this change is not a good idea. However once the rendering bug is fixed and the price is lowered, then this change is welcomed. (Pilot for over a year, L5 Swarms and L5 Forge, so yes I do know how to use AV.) The only person in Dust stupid enough to Proto every single god-damn weapon. 19/19.
Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 749	Posted - 2014.09.05 20:12:00 - [70] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: tbh the swarms shoudl also be equal armor/shield damage seeing as we don't have any valid arrial AV for shield tankers, all AV currently available is + vs armor, all except the plasma cannon and tbh its not like you're gonna be knockin pythions out the skies with plasma cannons. i'd say remove the -20% to shields/+20% to armor and have it +/-0% and have the proficiency left as is. that would help greatly vs gunloggi and pythons. i'd be interested to see how these changes work though, its deffinitly gonna be a step in teh right direction. the issue i've always had is i can fire 3 volleys off from my wiy SL, the first will hit and teh incubus/python will just accelerate up and forward and simply outrun the 2nd and third swarms, increasing their speed and increasing their flight time would be the closest to a true balance. they need to be able to harrass a talented ADS/DS pilot but destroy an useless/average DS/ADS pilot So you want reaction time nerfed, is that it? You want someone's brain drugged and slowed down to make it easier for you? nooo i mean someone who is a capable ADS pilot should be abel to avoid swarms and just be harrased by them. some bluedot who never flew a ship shouldn't just be able to instantly be invicible in an ADS. the turning curve and flight speed of swarms is a good move but also the flight time needs increasing so in open spaces they cant just hit AB and fly straigh tout. it'll take some manouvering on the pilots behalf to avoid swarms Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience

Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 873	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:13:00 - [71] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? So you reduce the price about 70-80k isk and you cut our survive ability by half. I do not agree. I think proto small turrets need a price nerf and a CPU/PG nerf. Also think the ADS needs a PG buff. I have 200+ free CPU but always have to fit a complex Pg extender. Price should be about 150k isk. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
medomai grey warravens Capital Punishment. 963	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:35:00 - [72] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. I'm going to elaborate on my previous unanswered question. The way swarm missile volley track first involves flying towards a target and then switching to following it's trail. It is by following a dropship's trail that allows the swarm missiles to follow the dropship behind cover. Unless this is changed, reducing the turn radius of a swarm missile will increase the swarms travel distance and only make it slightly worse at hitting a dropship behind cover. Swarm missile will still be able to do 180 degree turns with a wider turning radius. If a dropship successfully manages to doge a swarm missile, because that swarm missile does not lose track of its target outside of its turning radius, the missile will simply turn around and continue to chase its target. So my question is: Are the way swarm missiles track staying the same? Because a decrease in turn radius alone will not be enough to achieve allowing skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 38	Posted - 2014.09.05 21:46:00 - [73] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? So you reduce the price about 70-80k isk and you cut our survive ability by half. I do not agree. I think proto small turrets need a price nerf and a CPU/PG nerf. Also think the ADS needs a PG buff. I have 200+ free CPU but always have to fit a complex Pg extender. Price should be about 150k isk. +1 Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Shooter Somewhere Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:13:00 - [74] - Quote Yup this did it this was the post that was going to kill tankers. So what your telling me is another SWL buff for speed so that the swarms can get to me and kill me faster? (the tank) Dropships main argument here was Dropships could run away and return in a few moments in prime fighting conditions oh well guess whos still there trying to get points? Those two forge gunners and 3 swarms launchers. Man I wish my rail ADS could stand still and get his by a breach forge gun and pick off infantry at the same time while also not worrying about armor based swarms -_- Rattai does relieaze no one tanks right and no one on the fourms wants people tanking? it would be nice if he only asked us tankers what needs to be done not ever one is a duna2002 the difference between 1 more high or low for gunnlogi could bring tanks back in the game buuuut noooope. AV be like IT ISNT FAIRRRR!!! lol HEADSHOT! HEADSHOT!! HEADSHOT!!! HEADSHOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=earCbU6vgAo
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 3638	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:39:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? On this point, are you considering adding ADS to the loyalty store? That might change the dynamic here a little. Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
Soulja Ghostface MCDUSTDONALDS Top Men. 2713	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:44:00 - [76] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? On this point, are you considering adding ADS to the loyalty store? That might change the dynamic here a little. Would give me a reason to stop curb stomping minmatrash and aid the caldari. Is Z platoon still open for buisness? Also this is a good way to get pilots/more people out of pubs and into fw Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 201	Posted - 2014.09.05 22:48:00 - [77] - Quote Okay, if you're going to buff swarms considerably, could the price reduction for the ADS be considered once again? I wouldn't mind if were reduced to at least 120k. 323k is a tad ridiculous for a STD dropship... regardless of it being an ADS. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
ResistanceGTA D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1485	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:02:00 - [78] - Quote Could we at least work on the Swarm rendering? I mean, I truthfully just get hit by swarms without any indication that they're there. I just get hit. Maybe its just me though. Or, work on the rendering of infantry? If you find an issue and I stumble upon your thread, I will do my darnedest to get the issue known. Also, Raptors...
Dustbunny Durrr ReD or DeaD 271	Posted - 2014.09.06 00:17:00 - [79] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Okay, if you're going to buff swarms considerably, could the price reduction for the ADS be considered once again? I wouldn't mind if were reduced to at least 120k. 323k is a tad ridiculous for a STD dropship... regardless of it being an ADS. EDIT: It's not so much that the regular dropship isn't viable, but why even use it? Every other role can easily supply itself with WP, but you simply can't even do that much in a regular dropship... mCRUs don't offer WP, and you're fully dependent upon gunners. There's very little you can do with that kind of a role... The problem with regular dropships isn't that they aren't useful, they are, very much so, for their purpose of troop transport, which they do, very well. It's the fact that you get jack $#!@ WPs for something that is very beneficial to the team. Add on top of that, that the NDS' role of troop transport, is typically a one-time thing, you're not ferrying troops back and forth between locations constantly, so after dropping them off, you need to recall/sacrifice your dropship and then be in a suit.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4058	Posted - 2014.09.06 02:09:00 - [80] - Quote Dustbunny Durrr wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Okay, if you're going to buff swarms considerably, could the price reduction for the ADS be considered once again? I wouldn't mind if were reduced to at least 120k. 323k is a tad ridiculous for a STD dropship... regardless of it being an ADS. EDIT: It's not so much that the regular dropship isn't viable, but why even use it? Every other role can easily supply itself with WP, but you simply can't even do that much in a regular dropship... mCRUs don't offer WP, and you're fully dependent upon gunners. There's very little you can do with that kind of a role... The problem with regular dropships isn't that they aren't useful, they are, very much so, for their purpose of troop transport, which they do, very well. It's the fact that you get jack $#!@ WPs for something that is very beneficial to the team. Add on top of that, that the NDS' role of troop transport, is typically a one-time thing, you're not ferrying troops back and forth between locations constantly, so after dropping them off, you need to recall/sacrifice your dropship and then be in a suit. It would be more benificial if mobile CRU's would give WP for spawns on the dropship. There are multiple ways to earn WP with a vehicle like these: -kills -damaging vehicles -vehicle kill assist (gunner gets a kill and recieves 35WP) -transport WP (when you picked a guy up, move it at least 200m and if he scores WP you get like 10%) -scanning with a vehicle scanner I have no idea why you cannot receive WP for spawns on the vehicle. Oh and if we are at it there is a bug with MCRU. It only becomes avaible as spawnpoint if you bleed out (proper dead no revive possible). As long you can be revived the MCRU on any vehicle just simply wont show up on your map. Both needs to be fixed. I think 15WP per spawn for the pilot/driver would be enough. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"

Darth-Carbonite GIO Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 779	Posted - 2014.09.06 06:23:00 - [81] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Foundation Seldon wrote: I'm fine with Swarm changes. They need to be able to catch up to the extremely agile ADS in their current format. Afterburner stuff : A duration bonus doesn't particularly help here. You mentioned it yourself, the ADS with an Afterburner can get out of dodge extremely quickly and that fact isn't going to change regardless of whether or not the Afterburner has a duration of 10 seconds or 20 seconds. They'll be far removed from Swarm range in the first 5 in most cases and they'll need to slow down in order to effectively take on infantry in a different location. Actually, that might work, increased boost speed rather than increased duration. This all the way. Increased duration is nearly pointless, but speed encourages technical evasive maneuvers and mobility. Living proof that the Amarr can't do anything without the Caldari
Celus Ivara DUST University Ivy League 234	Posted - 2014.09.06 09:11:00 - [82] - Quote I'd like to echo the concerns others have posted about DS's flat sitting outside lock-on range and doing battlefield actions free of risk. To be clear though, I think Vehicle/AV balance is mostly in a very good state right now, and the present SL lock-on range is a big part of that. In most battlefield situations, I'd never want to see the SL changed. But that's "most" situations; what about the rest? As I said above, there are scenarios in which a pilot is effecting the battle while outside infantry engagement range, and since they are in the sky there's no way to close this range. From my perspective, this problem isn't about an inability to kill a distant dropship, but a lack of a harrying option. When you can poke at a distant enemy, you force them to either engage you, or to leave the zone entirely. We don't need DPS; we need the ability to poke. My ideal solution would be to keep most SL behavior as-is within their present range, but then add-on the functionality to lock-on beyond normal range at a DPS cost (longer lock-on time, or fewer missiles, or etc...). But that would likely require extra code, which we probably can't hotfix to the client. So instead, I'll suggest repurposing all those Swarm Launcher variants no one ever uses. ("I can split my missiles between multiple targets? Why would I ever want this?") Keep their low DPS, substantially increase their range, and we'll have our harrying option, and have found some use for dead items to boot. :)
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1741	Posted - 2014.09.06 11:28:00 - [83] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Ah yes, the awesome power+low cost approach to balance. Also used for 1.7 tanks with great results
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2581	Posted - 2014.09.06 11:35:00 - [84] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Ah yes, the awesome power+low cost approach to balance. Also used for 1.7 tanks with great results Works extremely well for me. Target rich environment is utterly hilarious. Especially since most vehicle drivers are idiots.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 739	Posted - 2014.09.06 12:48:00 - [85] - Quote Celus Ivara wrote: I'd like to echo the concerns others have posted about DS's flat sitting outside lock-on range and doing battlefield actions free of risk. As I said above, there are scenarios in which a pilot is effecting the battle while outside infantry engagement range, and since they are in the sky there's no way to close this range. So instead, I'll suggest repurposing all those Swarm Launcher variants no one ever uses. ("I can split my missiles between multiple targets? Why would I ever want this?") Keep their low DPS, substantially increase their range, and we'll have our harrying option, and have found some use for dead items to boot. :) At that kind of altitude an ADS is shooting at dots. For a solo pilot, it's pretty hard to maintain that height whilst firing vaguely effectively. Even with a side gunner they are aiming at specks. While they are out of range of Swarms they are not entirely safe: Forge Guns, Railguns, Missiles can all reach that dropship which is most likely holding pretty damn still to have any chance of landing useful shots. However, I do agree with your notion of altering the Swarm variants. Personally, the current Swarms are fine, if there's an alternative option that allows a different mode of engagement. There's still a slight issue and that's the knock back: DSs of all stripes get buffeted about by every kind of AV weapon,and when one cannot be dodged (Swarms) it gets incredibly difficult to land shots of target if even one AV player is in the area. If that AV player is a Swarmer, you have to back off to regain control of your craft, let alone the damage it's doing. I still think a longer ranged,lower damage Assault variant would help in the balance though. Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Ah yes, the awesome power+low cost approach to balance. Also used for 1.7 tanks with great results Yes, because ADSs, even at 250k ISK would be sooooo spammable. Its not like pilots currently go ISK negative if they lose a single ship and 80k would make a huge difference. Going from ridiculously expensive to slightly less ridiculously expensive is still ridiculously expensive... If the hull came down to 120-150k ISK, the most cheaply fitted ships could lose 1 before going negative. A second ship down would definitely be negative, even at that price point. I'll ask again: is ISK a balancing factor or not? If it is, then ADSs should either remain expensive and remain powerful, or be brought down in power in line with an equal ISK reduction. If ISK is not a balancing factor, then why does price matter to you? Alt of Halla Murr.
Gabriel Ceja Knights of Eternal Darkness League of Infamy 56	Posted - 2014.09.06 19:00:00 - [86] - Quote I can live with this however seeing as most of this here is to increase the capability of destroying the ads I propose in finally going through with the ads price reduction. "Throw on the flux capacitor." activates fuel injector "WOOOOOO!!!"
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 202	Posted - 2014.09.06 19:44:00 - [87] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Only an approximate 70k isk cheaper? You still can't benefit from using an ADS of that price... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1859	Posted - 2014.09.06 20:57:00 - [88] - Quote Looks good rattati! Only two things I'd like to add on to the discussion, 1.) Can we have numbers for the afterburner changes? 20-25 second cool down seems reasonable, please don't go overboard and put it up to a minute. If at all possible I'd love to see the return of those low slot structure mods that increased maneuverability in exchange for armor. 2.) A price reduction would be really nice, I think that dropping the price on small turrets would be a good avenue of approach for this. My 3xt fit runs me 700k isk, as you can imagine this puts quite the strain on my wallet. It would be nice to be able to turn a profit in my chosen career as currently if a dropship survives long enough for me to pay it off I loose it shortly after starting the grind with my newly bought dropship and if I loose that on the first game......I manage to break even mostly, sometimes I loose quite a lot, I almost never turn a profit. If my 3xt fit was 500k I might stand a better chance at making monies. Otherwise the changes seem fair and reasonable, I'm going to try out a Myron fit with a cru and see if the extra HP has brought it back to date with the current battlefields in delta. Please keep us posted with numbers mmmm numbers..... Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1859	Posted - 2014.09.06 21:04:00 - [89] - Quote One thing I would like clarification on too, with the changes to swarms speed and acceleration we won't be able to outrun a swarm volley so we will loose that way of mitigating the damage, but you are changing the turn radius for swarms meaning they can't cut corners around buildings. Will we be able to dodge swarms with flying skillz without buildings? (As on most maps there often isn't a convenient building for cover) or will we have to find a building or hill to use? Thanks Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer
medomai grey warravens Capital Punishment. 966	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:26:00 - [90] - Quote Pvt Numnutz wrote: One thing I would like clarification on too, with the changes to swarms speed and acceleration we won't be able to outrun a swarm volley so we will loose that way of mitigating the damage, but you are changing the turn radius for swarms meaning they can't cut corners around buildings. Will we be able to dodge swarms with flying skillz without buildings? (As on most maps there often isn't a convenient building for cover) or will we have to find a building or hill to use? Thanks Reduced turn radius just means the swarm missiles will be able to turn quicker. But I don't think CCP Rattati realized he used the term wrong. He meant to say was increase turn radius. To answer your question, a wider turn radius alone will still allow swarm missiles to hit you behind buildings and will still continue to pursue even after the targeted dropship evades it. I explain it in my previous post (link). What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?

bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 398	Posted - 2014.09.06 23:30:00 - [91] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. THIS Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 398	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:14:00 - [92] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Wrong, the only time an ADS can outrun swarms is when they're right on the max lock on range, then boost out immediately to avoid the swarm. They get hit if they're any closer and slower on the AB every single time. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. Yes, another way to help the lazy that don't know what teamwork means is to buff AV. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. [/b]They turn greater than 90 degrees, they go fully around 2 corners of a building.[/b] 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. That's actually surprising. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. Yes, reward lazy infantry behavior by nerfing vehicles, again. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive Of course, the answer isn't CCP's motto, "HTFU," which they seem to drop for Dust, but instead, to nerf vehicles and buff AV. Nevermind, that infantry want the easiest solution which combines the least amount of ISK, SP involved, and thinking. So many fools jump into the middle of the road where a tank is, get off one volley, get cut down, and continue to do the same thing the entire match. Then they get on the forums and complain that they can't destroy tanks, deliberately not mentioning they went after the tank solo, while the pilot was paying attention, in a trash suit, probably using Darkside CBRs. I'm keeping it constructive, while also providing some critical analysis. Pilots for many months have been telling infantry how to destroy them. They don't take the advice, continue on their slow, lazy ways, then ask for vehicle nerfs and get them. Until vehicles require teams to operate them, all arguments claiming that teams should be required to kill them are invalid. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 400	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:41:00 - [93] - Quote While making swarm missiles 'less bendy' is a fine idea versus derpships, I fear that it will break their effectiveness against land vehicles. Increasing missile 'smarts' (to hit fewer molehills and outhouses) should also be part of this fix to maintain balance against other vehicle types. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3462	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:42:00 - [94] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Celus Ivara wrote: I'd like to echo the concerns others have posted about DS's flat sitting outside lock-on range and doing battlefield actions free of risk. As I said above, there are scenarios in which a pilot is effecting the battle while outside infantry engagement range, and since they are in the sky there's no way to close this range. So instead, I'll suggest repurposing all those Swarm Launcher variants no one ever uses. ("I can split my missiles between multiple targets? Why would I ever want this?") Keep their low DPS, substantially increase their range, and we'll have our harrying option, and have found some use for dead items to boot. :) At that kind of altitude an ADS is shooting at dots. For a solo pilot, it's pretty hard to maintain that height whilst firing vaguely effectively. Even with a side gunner they are aiming at specks. While they are out of range of Swarms they are not entirely safe: Forge Guns, Railguns, Missiles can all reach that dropship which is most likely holding pretty damn still to have any chance of landing useful shots. However, I do agree with your notion of altering the Swarm variants. Personally, the current Swarms are fine, if there's an alternative option that allows a different mode of engagement. There's still a slight issue and that's the knock back: DSs of all stripes get buffeted about by every kind of AV weapon,and when one cannot be dodged (Swarms) it gets incredibly difficult to land shots of target if even one AV player is in the area. If that AV player is a Swarmer, you have to back off to regain control of your craft, let alone the damage it's doing. I still think a longer ranged,lower damage Assault variant would help in the balance though. Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Ah yes, the awesome power+low cost approach to balance. Also used for 1.7 tanks with great results Yes, because ADSs, even at 250k ISK would be sooooo spammable. Its not like pilots currently go ISK negative if they lose a single ship and 80k would make a huge difference. Going from ridiculously expensive to slightly less ridiculously expensive is still ridiculously expensive... If the hull came down to 120-150k ISK, the most cheaply fitted ships could lose 1 before going negative. A second ship down would definitely be negative, even at that price point. I'll ask again: is ISK a balancing factor or not? If it is, then ADSs should either remain expensive and remain powerful, or be brought down in power in line with an equal ISK reduction. If ISK is not a balancing factor, then why does price matter to you? Isk is not a balancing factor. That is to say, 'my dropship/tank is expensive, therefore it should be powerful'. However you can say, 'my dropship/tank is powerful, therefore it should be expensive' ADS should not be as common as tanks, nor will these changes allow them to be. You should expect no more than 1 dropship, per pilot to be lost per battle. Therefore the average price of a fully fitted dropship, should be about 220,000 ISK, this way you can afford to loose one but only if you win. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 400	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:43:00 - [95] - Quote Lock time should be reviewed during this fix also. I see no reason why it should take the same amount of time to lock onto a target 50m away as it does to lock onto one 150m away. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 400	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:44:00 - [96] - Quote Rendering issues need to be fixed for dropship pilots. It is only fair. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 401	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:54:00 - [97] - Quote Adding a enter/exit delay (a reload animation?) would help reward (all) AV with a kill or assist when destroying a derpship. Currently if a DS hits zero eHP, the time for it to fall to the ground affords the immortal pilot plenty of time to bail out. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 739	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:56:00 - [98] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I'll ask again: is ISK a balancing factor or not? If it is, then ADSs should either remain expensive and remain powerful, or be brought down in power in line with an equal ISK reduction. If ISK is not a balancing factor, then why does price matter to you? Isk is not a balancing factor. That is to say, 'my dropship/tank is expensive, therefore it should be powerful'. However you can say, 'my dropship/tank is powerful, therefore it should be expensive' ADS should not be as common as tanks, nor will these changes allow them to be. You should expect no more than 1 dropship, per pilot to be lost per battle. Therefore the average price of a fully fitted dropship, should be about 220,000 ISK, this way you can afford to loose one but only if you win. So, tell me if I understand you correctly: The ADS price point should be such that to lose a single ship is to go negative, ISK-wise, if the player does not win the battle and ISK is not a balancing factor. To me, this statement is somewhat contradictory: either ISK is a balancing factor, and the cost of something is relative to it's power; or it is not a balancing factor and we should be looking at a price point that allows wide spread usage of said thing. The quote above says that you do not feel that ISK is a balancing factor, yet you state that ISK efficiency (ie, if you're able to make ISK while using it) should be such that ADSs should remain difficult to be efficient with. Honestly, 220,000, fitted, is about what I want after Swarms get buffed. If an ADS is supposed to be destroyed regularly, I should be able to lose multiple before going ISK negative, plain and simple. Alt of Halla Murr.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 401	Posted - 2014.09.07 00:58:00 - [99] - Quote Lock range needs to be increased for swarms. If an ADS can hit something from 200m, then swarms should at least be able to do the same. I think 175m/200m/225m for std/adv/pro would work just fine. (No change to missile flight range.) Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 357	Posted - 2014.09.07 02:16:00 - [100] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. THIS Weapon range means nothing if you can't see the target until you're within 75m or less, well within any AV or turret attack range.

nelo kazuma Da Short Buss Driving School 37	Posted - 2014.09.07 02:29:00 - [101] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive i know this is kinda a repeated request but i would like to see the logi dropship returned mostly due to the fact it was meant for that purpose. but besides that an slight increase in speed in NDS mostly due to inability to escape tank or Av. another idea would be to release higher lvl mobile cru's to allow faster spawn time on dropships to allow infantry to enter battle field with more ease for hot drop offs and maybe a 15 warpoint per spawn makiing it worth more to run this besides transport assist which is nice dont get me wrong but people dont tend to leave dropship once in( mostly new people but still). ALSO FOR THE LOVE OF JESUS AN EJECT BUTTON lol i think any of these coupled with what u have in mind so far would be great additions
Stile451 Red Star. EoN. 357	Posted - 2014.09.07 02:36:00 - [102] - Quote Speaking of mobile CRUs can anyone explain when a player will be able to spawn on them in regards to altitude. What about any bugs like the one mentioned earlier in the thread about having to be completely bled out before it will appear?
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4068	Posted - 2014.09.07 03:32:00 - [103] - Quote Stile451 wrote: Speaking of mobile CRUs can anyone explain when a player will be able to spawn on them in regards to altitude. What about any bugs like the one mentioned earlier in the thread about having to be completely bled out before it will appear? It doesnt matter if you landed the dropship or are flying at max altitude. As long some 1 is in the pilot seat people can spawn on it. But only if they are proper dead and cant be revived. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
wripple warravens Capital Punishment. 206	Posted - 2014.09.07 09:57:00 - [104] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. This guy, this guy has clearly never flown an ADS.
wripple warravens Capital Punishment. 206	Posted - 2014.09.07 10:23:00 - [105] - Quote So what you are proposing is to bring back the guaranteed hit for the no-skill weapon such as the swarm launcher. CCP, I slow clap with such sarcasm. Let me play out a scenario for you: I call out a full proto Python costing more ISK than most of these AV crybabies will ever make in 2 matches combined. If any scrub puts a wyrkomi swarm launcher on a dinky little scout, he is 100% going to kill me in one clip, and 100% going to hit every shot that successfully locks and comes out of that weapon regardless of my initial distance from him or my reaction times. I'm finally hanging up the ADS build. I'm already fed up with loosing half a million ISK to BS rendering and BS collision damage from the environment, this just puts the nail in the coffin for me. I have it on good authority to know that none of the Devs actually know how to pilot an ADS proficiently enough to know what the pilot knows, and this just clearly demonstrates that. If you continue to price this vehicle so expensively then I'm done with flying. I've piloted dropships since the beta and have used ADSs since their first appearance, and forcing me to scurry like a rat with my tail down every time a starter fit AV suit stands within 120 meters of where I need to go just makes a mockery of the role altogether. A veteran pilot is already easily killable by a competitive player, we can easily loose 5 Pythons in a single PC battle to a single swarmer. These changes only further reward clumsy swarmers and untactical play styles for AV users, pushing the role into a mediocre point and click role.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4068	Posted - 2014.09.07 11:54:00 - [106] - Quote This whole concept is moronic. Some scrub with a standard swarm launcher will be a ridicoulus threat considering that each volley can deal over 1000HP damage. The python will just be dead meat while the incubus maybe gets away if it is lucky. And like 70k price reduction is just a drop in the bucket. a fully proto fitted incubus can easy cost over 600k ISK. So instead risking 600k im allmost granted to loose 530k ISK every time i call in my ADS. There are no counter measures for swarms and the afterburner is the only tool to make those things remotely work. in all honestly every 1 here who agrees to the swarm changes should man up and get a forgegun. If you are half decent shot then you will destroy any ads and that solo. Most ADS take somewhere around 2-3 hits with a ishukone assault forgegun. Swarms are the all around and easy to use AV weapon. It should not be better then a damn forgegun. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Chief-Shotty WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 194	Posted - 2014.09.07 13:00:00 - [107] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: This whole concept is moronic. Some scrub with a standard swarm launcher will be a ridicoulus threat considering that each volley can deal over 1000HP damage. The python will just be dead meat while the incubus maybe gets away if it is lucky. And like 70k price reduction is just a drop in the bucket. a fully proto fitted incubus can easy cost over 600k ISK. So instead risking 600k im allmost granted to loose 530k ISK every time i call in my ADS. There are no counter measures for swarms and the afterburner is the only tool to make those things remotely work. in all honestly every 1 here who agrees to the swarm changes should man up and get a forgegun. If you are half decent shot then you will destroy any ads and that solo. Most ADS take somewhere around 2-3 hits with a ishukone assault forgegun. Swarms are the all around and easy to use AV weapon. It should not be better then a damn forgegun. It should not be mandatory to wear a heavy suit to do anti-vehicle work. Some basic fundamentals of dust is you can wear any suit and fulfill any role. Snipers aren't relegated to wearing a light scout suit, you can use a heavy or a medium suit, all while still being a sniper. Anyway before i get off topic. Not everyone wants to skill into a heavy suit. Some because they don't like the lack of speed or perhaps not their play style, Nor, should you be forced into that SP sink if you want to do AV work. Of course, step in the light weapon slot that has 2 av weapons albeit both poor but they should still be effective to fulfill an av role and should be capable of destroying or at least able to engage vehicles enough to warrant tactics change by the drivers. The 2 weapons for AV duty are the swarms and plasma cannon. Now lets be real. Can you use a plasma cannon for av? Sure, but anyone in their right mind that have used that weapon has too many weaknesses to be effective av. The swarms are your next candidate and they can be easy to use for you average user especially for newcomers who don't have developed aim. However, both need to be at a point where a dropship pilot cannot just easily rush av users because the damage application is so weak you can brush it off while killing him. If you don't like swarms that much, perhaps we could petition for their removal and give the SP back. However, i want the plasma cannon to be buffed to be 3000hp MINIMUM direct damage because face it. IF SOMEONE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO HIT A VEHICLE WITH THAT THING. They should get that kill and the pilot should lose money if he is that reckless. 8-Time New Eden Mass Driver Champion Min Commando Combat Rifle and Mass Driver = FUN and Tears OMG the Tears!! :)
BL00DFART warravens Capital Punishment. 7	Posted - 2014.09.07 13:30:00 - [108] - Quote Chief-Shotty wrote: Some basic fundamentals of dust is you can wear any suit and fulfill any role. Ummmm, What? Is it opposite day today? Or did I read this wrong? You min commandos crack me up lmao Check out the description on a sentinel suit. I know no-one ever reads those walls of text, so just read the final sentence, any sentinel suit will do. If one suit could do it all, everyone would spec into said suit.
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 885	Posted - 2014.09.07 13:45:00 - [109] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 69	Posted - 2014.09.07 14:35:00 - [110] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Evan Gotabor wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Why are you guys so obsessed with the ISK reduction ? While it is a real ISK sink when you train those and learn to fly, a fully prototype dropship is in league with the cost of prototype tanks. And if you reduce the ISK cost, ADS will be cheaper than a prototype tank while being a more tactical asset. This would make no-sense. Please, do NOT reduce the price of ADS ! This would be completely stupid ! And what about starting pilots, like me? It's quite a steep price to pay to learn one role, and as you said it's not an easy thing to learn... My basic A/DS (that is a basic tier A/DS--due to the fact that A/DS are not really tiered--with basic modules and one militia turret) costs me just about 354,750 ISK Perhaps an actual tiering system for A/DS is in order to define the new pilots, and the veterans as well as the price points of each. Learning to fly ADS is... well problematic. And it has been so ever since the ADS were introduced. The problematic is : At proto level an ADS cost more or less the same than proto tanks (average 500.000 isk) However at standard level it cost almost 400.000 isk for the lower fits (lower mean less survivability, so more ISK sink). And there is no way in my mind to have less costly dropships without unbalancing the proto price. I like the idea of tiered ADS that you can unlock with the gallente/caldari dropship skill. Tier 1 : 100.000 isk with 3 modules, limited PG/CPU capability (just enough for an advanced turret and 2 advanced modules) Tier 2 : 300.000 isk with 4 modules, the same dropship as we have know Tier 3 : 500.000 isk with 5 modules, the cutting edge dropship which need to have a lot of proto modules and equipment. High risks (700.000 to 800.000 isk), but high rewards. The same thing can be applied to tanks. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.

Finn Colman Immortal Guides 41	Posted - 2014.09.07 15:03:00 - [111] - Quote bogeyman m wrote: Adding a enter/exit delay (a reload animation?) would help reward (all) AV with a kill or assist when destroying a derpship. Currently if a DS hits zero eHP, the time for it to fall to the ground affords the immortal pilot plenty of time to bail out. The main problem is if we jump out while its falling and die (either becuase we end up unable to use our dampeners or we just get crushed by the ship), it counts as a suicide, and you don't get credit for any of it, aside from just taking down the DS.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4822	Posted - 2014.09.07 15:56:00 - [112] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: This whole concept is moronic. Some scrub with a standard swarm launcher will be a ridicoulus threat considering that each volley can deal over 1000HP damage. The python will just be dead meat while the incubus maybe gets away if it is lucky. And like 70k price reduction is just a drop in the bucket. a fully proto fitted incubus can easy cost over 600k ISK. So instead risking 600k im allmost granted to loose 530k ISK every time i call in my ADS. There are no counter measures for swarms and the afterburner is the only tool to make those things remotely work. in all honestly every 1 here who agrees to the swarm changes should man up and get a forgegun. If you are half decent shot then you will destroy any ads and that solo. Most ADS take somewhere around 2-3 hits with a ishukone assault forgegun. Swarms are the all around and easy to use AV weapon. It should not be better then a damn forgegun. I disagree wholeheartedly. If swarms can't be balanced, then they should be removed and our SP refunded. Otherwise, their underperformance should be addressed in as fair and reasonable a manner as possible. "Ease of use" is not a factor by which to balance. 1) Consider the HMG Heavy. 2) Swarms aren't at all easy to use. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3110	Posted - 2014.09.07 16:17:00 - [113] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Ryme Intrinseca Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 1749	Posted - 2014.09.07 17:19:00 - [114] - Quote Stile451 wrote: The proposed changes by CCP Rattati should be enough of a change to swarms to make them viable - I will be getting far more ADS kills. I think the price of the ADS should be lower than what has been proposed - it's going to be raining ADS. bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. THIS Weapon range means nothing if you can't see the target until you're within 75m or less, well within any AV or turret attack range. Total bull ****, I have been killed by small rail DS from over 150m on several occasions.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1801	Posted - 2014.09.07 17:35:00 - [115] - Quote Gabriella Grey wrote: 501st Headstrong wrote: Is is possible for normal dropships to have built in CRUS? One's that don't need to activate at a specific altitude? As it is currently, few people fly NDS because they need to take away troops from the ground to do so and an Ads can do just as well why have it's own gun. If NDS had a CRU that was activated no matter the height, it could be it's own bunker at objectives, allowing mercs to fire on the guns and spawn in if there are no uplinks. he increased Hp would encourage AV to try and take it down, in which case a pilot could just get in and fly away. In the context of Planetary Conquest however, I only use NDS when flying to enemy home point or crash landing someplace because of the added troop capacity. Loving the other adjustments however, my Commando MK.o feels so sad no being able to kill things sometimes Those were called Logistics dropships. No clue if we will get them back anytime soon however. But I have never had an issue with height with the mobile CRU, the issue with it is the dead clone has to bleed completely out first before someone can spawn on it. Sometimes it disappears from the map as well. We experimented with using mobile CRU's in PC but that plan was ruined when half the players assigned to spawn on said DS couldn't see it on the map. Fun > Realism
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 41	Posted - 2014.09.07 18:24:00 - [116] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Stile451 wrote: The proposed changes by CCP Rattati should be enough of a change to swarms to make them viable - I will be getting far more ADS kills. I think the price of the ADS should be lower than what has been proposed - it's going to be raining ADS. bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. THIS Weapon range means nothing if you can't see the target until you're within 75m or less, well within any AV or turret attack range. Total bull ****, I have been killed by small rail DS from over 150m on several occasions. Quick note, the splash from rails is being removed, so anyone who is capable of doing such a thing after this change would need to have near impossible accuracy.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 203	Posted - 2014.09.07 19:05:00 - [117] - Quote Finn Colman wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Stile451 wrote: The proposed changes by CCP Rattati should be enough of a change to swarms to make them viable - I will be getting far more ADS kills. I think the price of the ADS should be lower than what has been proposed - it's going to be raining ADS. bogeyman m wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. THIS Weapon range means nothing if you can't see the target until you're within 75m or less, well within any AV or turret attack range. Total bull ****, I have been killed by small rail DS from over 150m on several occasions. Quick note, the splash from rails is being removed, so anyone who is capable of doing such a thing after this change would need to have near impossible accuracy. Saying it's nearly impossible to kill someone at 150m with a small rail turret is like saying it's impossible to kill someone at 150m with a sniper... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 886	Posted - 2014.09.07 19:32:00 - [118] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. The max kills I've ever gotten with a ADS is like 24 and that was vs fresh out the academy players vs 500k isk python. I've gone 44-3 with a militia heavy with a STD HMG std mods vs. Proto users. ADS in no way is OP. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Finn Colman Immortal Guides 41	Posted - 2014.09.07 19:40:00 - [119] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Finn Colman wrote: Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Stile451 wrote: The proposed changes by CCP Rattati should be enough of a change to swarms to make them viable - I will be getting far more ADS kills. I think the price of the ADS should be lower than what has been proposed - it's going to be raining ADS. Weapon range means nothing if you can't see the target until you're within 75m or less, well within any AV or turret attack range. Total bull ****, I have been killed by small rail DS from over 150m on several occasions. Quick note, the splash from rails is being removed, so anyone who is capable of doing such a thing after this change would need to have near impossible accuracy. Saying it's nearly impossible to kill someone at 150m with a small rail turret is like saying it's impossible to kill someone at 150m with a sniper... except the sniper has a scope, and is on stable ground...
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3111	Posted - 2014.09.07 19:44:00 - [120] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. The max kills I've ever gotten with a ADS is like 24 and that was vs fresh out the academy players vs 500k isk python. I've gone 44-3 with a militia heavy with a STD HMG std mods vs. Proto users. ADS in no way is OP. Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. Tanker/Logi/Assault

Nirwanda Vaughns 426th Infantry 755	Posted - 2014.09.07 19:44:00 - [121] - Quote wripple wrote: So what you are proposing is to bring back the guaranteed hit for the no-skill weapon such as the swarm launcher. CCP, I slow clap with such sarcasm. Let me play out a scenario for you: I call out a full proto Python costing more ISK than most of these AV crybabies will ever make in 2 matches combined. If any scrub puts a wyrkomi swarm launcher on a dinky little scout, he is 100% going to kill me in one clip, and 100% going to hit every shot that successfully locks and comes out of that weapon regardless of my initial distance from him or my reaction times. I'm finally hanging up the ADS build. I'm already fed up with loosing half a million ISK to BS rendering and BS collision damage from the environment, this just puts the nail in the coffin for me. I have it on good authority to know that none of the Devs actually know how to pilot an ADS proficiently enough to know what the pilot knows, and this just clearly demonstrates that. If you continue to price this vehicle so expensively then I'm done with flying. I've piloted dropships since the beta and have used ADSs since their first appearance, and forcing me to scurry like a rat with my tail down every time a starter fit AV suit stands within 120 meters of where I need to go just makes a mockery of the role altogether. A veteran pilot is already easily killable by a competitive player, we can easily loose 5 Pythons in a single PC battle to a single swarmer. These changes only further reward clumsy swarmers and untactical play styles for AV users, pushing the role into a mediocre point and click role. but its ok that for the past 6-8 months an ADS pilot has been able to take out probably several billion isk of infantry suits all the while not being able to be taken down? if you're a skilled pilot you shoudl still be able to avoid the new swarms and we stil only have 175m lock range. at max skills i can get 3 swarms off before an ADS is out of range and only 1 of them will hit because it simply outruns the rest of them. having 2 or 3 rounds hit a DS now will at least keep the ADS out the field a little longer as it takes more itme to recover Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 358	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:00:00 - [122] - Quote Incubus Blaster gun sight for pilot aims down in third person and straight forward in first person. Python both views are forward for gun sight for missle
Pvt Numnutz Prophets of the Velocirapture 1860	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:13:00 - [123] - Quote Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: but its ok that for the past 6-8 months an ADS pilot has been able to take out probably several billion isk of infantry suits all the while not being able to be taken down? if you're a skilled pilot you shoudl still be able to avoid the new swarms and we stil only have 175m lock range. at max skills i can get 3 swarms off before an ADS is out of range and only 1 of them will hit because it simply outruns the rest of them. having 2 or 3 rounds hit a DS now will at least keep the ADS out the field a little longer as it takes more itme to recover Assault dropships die, if you can't take one out I'm sorry, but it sounds like a personal problem. My concern is that the wider turning arch of the swarms won't be as profound as pilots need it to be making dodging a volley of swarms impossible. We would then have swarms that out run our dropships (afterburner increases acceleration not top speed) accelerate faster and hit us despite pilot skill. The swarm launcher doesn't require much aiming as its a fire and forget weapon, if you get your three volleys off when we are close, which is really easy as hardly anything renders for us giving the swarm launcher the first mover advantage, all three shots will always hit guaranteed with no possible way to avoid it. This would mean that as soon as we even see (if we see) a swarm we have to run with no option to fight unless we want to loose our very expensive dropships (mine costs 700k) I'm hoping that pilots will be able to dodge swarm volleys with skill and maneuvers, and if not keep swarm speed at 50ms because they are balancing the afterburner and the acceleration buff would also address that imbalance. The extra speed seems a little excessive if we can't outright dodge swarms. Master Skyshark rider Kaalaka dakka tamer
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 40	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:20:00 - [124] - Quote Quote: Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Quote: Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. Quote: It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. Quote: The max kills I've ever gotten with a ADS is like 24 and that was vs fresh out the academy players vs 500k isk python. I've gone 44-3 with a militia heavy with a STD HMG std mods vs. Proto users. ADS in no way is OP. Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 184	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:30:00 - [125] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. Its true the top 100 killers in dust are only dropship pilots....and every match i've ever flown in or seen an ADs its usually no less than 30 kills I'll never understand the attitude that says "if anything escapes death its OP." I've got 2 adv Logi and a proto logi. I got ammar minmatar and caldari assault. Gallente and minmatar scout. All of the basic heavy medium and light suits suits.Ammar setinel and minmat commando Madrugars and gunlogis. All the lavs, every turret at ADV except large missiles. And of course my beloved Incubus. All of the light weapons and side arms. And i have never on a consistent basis seen dropships at the top of the kill board no matter who i fly with, gun for or see fly against me (whether on the ground or in the air). As in more than one match a day. Maybe a week. I do squad up with Judge and Evo 7, and i've seen some really good dropship pilots in my time. Heavies and scouts dominate each match kill wise, with the odd assault suit in there and perhaps a really good blaster tank. That mythical KD ratio of dropships is only apparent in the fact that since i dont want to loose my ship i might get, lets say ten kills in one match and maybe 7 in another. Because i'll come in take out a few troops and then spend the rest of the match afterburning away from any AV. Or i'll recal and fight it out on the ground because theres too much AV up right now. The third macth when i do lose my ship my dropship went 17 and 1 but over several matches strung out over a long period of time. Which is what you would expect of anyone risking 500,000 isk, you should "git gud" at keeping it alive, otherwise you would not be able to afford bringing them out. Ratattis response to me keeping my very expensive asset alive over long period of time is that 'well it should die more often" The most popular way to do this is to make sure the only fire and forget weapon in the game is ensured a kill. Make sure our only counter measure to any AV the afterburner is nerfed. I can dance and try to make a forge gunner or rail tank or another dropship miss, which is already hard to do seeing as the incubus is physically larger than tanks. I cannot make a swarm launcer miss unless i afterburn the hell out of dodge. 3 hits will kill my ship dead. currently 2 swam hits are gaurnteed. Rattati's efforts at makeing sure the third gets me is akin to buffing the shotgun so that instead of three or four shots to kill a proto heavy it should be one shot, because heavies dont die as often as scout suits. Its only apparent how often dropships die to those who fly them. You can't balance off of lack of kniwledge, the numbers being used to quantify how dropship are used only tell half the story. If you dont factor in the time, effort, sp and skill requred to fly the damn things let alone 'git gud' how can you tell whether it balanced or not? Ask yourself this, should we balancy the infantry suits around the kill board? Should we balance the game soley around the KD ratio top 100 players? Or should we use numbers and experience of in equal measure? Truth be told swarms are extremely dangerous thats why pilots run away, in the same vien that snipers are dangerous and that when under sniper fire everybody in every suits uses cover. Yet i don't see snipers calling for a reduction in infantry sprint speed to make sure you can't get to cover in time. Because it wouldnt be balanced. Some of the ideas i can get behind, such as assault swarm variants with more range, high speed but less DPS. I cannot get behind 3 wyrokamis volleys being garunteed hits. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3112	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:40:00 - [126] - Quote a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 888	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:40:00 - [127] - Quote Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. I've seen Saxonmish go 80+/4, therefore his Minmatar Assault needs to be nerfed along with his ADV rail rifle since his KD is too high. Benjamin's logic. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 888	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:42:00 - [128] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3112	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:44:00 - [129] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. I've seen Saxonmish go 80+/4, therefore his Minmatar Assault needs to be nerfed along with his ADV rail rifle since his KD is too high. Benjamin's logic. LOL You're cute. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3112	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:47:00 - [130] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? You act like I haven't taken Espeon and others out in 1v1 DS v Tank. A forge in a tank! What kind of ***** do you think I am? lol gimp my fit so that the ADS can easily out DPS what my gunners putting out and get wrecked anyway. Maybe get good and stop sucking in your ADS 24-0 your best really. Tanker/Logi/Assault

Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 203	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:50:00 - [131] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? You act like I haven't taken Espeon and others out in 1v1 DS v Tank. A forge in a tank! What kind of ***** do you think I am? lol gimp my fit so that the ADS can easily out DPS what my gunners putting out and get wrecked anyway. Maybe get good and stop sucking in your ADS 24-0 your best really. Why are you letting an ADS destroy your tank? Sounds like a pathetic whiner without any sense or skill in the matter... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3113	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:57:00 - [132] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? You act like I haven't taken Espeon and others out in 1v1 DS v Tank. A forge in a tank! What kind of ***** do you think I am? lol gimp my fit so that the ADS can easily out DPS what my gunners putting out and get wrecked anyway. Maybe get good and stop sucking in your ADS 24-0 your best really. Why are you letting an ADS destroy your tank? Sounds like a pathetic whiner without any sense or skill in the matter... Why are you letting that proto burst heavy kill your starter fit. You must be a scrub. Hint I don't camp in the redline. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Soulja Ghostface MCDUSTDONALDS Top Men. 2731	Posted - 2014.09.07 20:59:00 - [133] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Why are you letting an ADS destroy your tank? Sounds like a pathetic whiner without any sense or skill in the matter... I would like to que up fw with you while you tank and I fly ads Roles mastered- HAV/ADS/LDS/Forum Lord/Working on Assault Pinned down? Let my tank scatter enemies for you v(^_^)v
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.07 23:37:00 - [134] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? You act like I haven't taken Espeon and others out in 1v1 DS v Tank. A forge in a tank! What kind of ***** do you think I am? lol gimp my fit so that the ADS can easily out DPS what my gunners putting out and get wrecked anyway. Maybe get good and stop sucking in your ADS 24-0 your best really. 1. Do you want a cookie? I saw you QQing about how your ass got handed to you by an ADS and you couldn't do sht so I give you a few suggestions that actually work but they might be difficult to take in by a hard head like you. 2. It's not about kills, It's team support. I destroyed vehicles that match coupled with uplinks on buildings which lead us to win that match. If you PC, you know that drop uplink placement is the key to winning. When there are a bunch of Dropsuplinks on a building heavy defended by infantry, you're tank on the ground doesn't do sht. You must be really stupid to base peoples performance on kills. Learn to dust? *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.07 23:43:00 - [135] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. I've seen Saxonmish go 80+/4, therefore his Minmatar Assault needs to be nerfed along with his ADV rail rifle since his KD is too high. Benjamin's logic. LOL You're cute. LOL you're stupid. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3113	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:23:00 - [136] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. I've seen Saxonmish go 80+/4, therefore his Minmatar Assault needs to be nerfed along with his ADV rail rifle since his KD is too high. Benjamin's logic. LOL You're cute. LOL you're stupid. I'm going to keep this one he amuses me with his failed logic. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 203	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:35:00 - [137] - Quote Soulja Ghostface wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: Why are you letting an ADS destroy your tank? Sounds like a pathetic whiner without any sense or skill in the matter... I would like to que up fw with you while you tank and I fly ads My point is that if a single tanker is allowing themselves to be destroyed consistently by an ADS, then they are likely not too bright and unskillful... and that's entirely their issue and has nothing to do with balance. The AV and vehicle community have just about run themselves dry on reasoning with one another. I'm getting sick of it. Real fcking sick of it. People complain that it's "impossible" to destroy vehicles, especially an ADS, yet I find it quite effortless... I mainly use an Incubus anyway, and hardly tank at all, and when using a tank, I know better than to allow an ADS to continually get shots on me. Takes one to know one, and how to counter one. I don't know how much longer I'm going to stick around with these apes constantly throwing and smearing eachother in their own sht... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:40:00 - [138] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Quote: Heavies are easy mode http://imgur.com/Ijc5Um7 I've seen players like PARTHOK and Derrtih get close to 20 kills and under 2 deaths in PC in Pub's if the other team pushes enough a good ADS pilot could get 30+ kills, I've seen Snugglez go 36-0 and I think 41-0. I've seen Saxonmish go 80+/4, therefore his Minmatar Assault needs to be nerfed along with his ADV rail rifle since his KD is too high. Benjamin's logic. LOL You're cute. LOL you're stupid. I'm going to keep this one he amuses me with his failed logic. Sadly you still fail to realize that you contradict yourself often. At first it is you QQing about how ADS kill your tank, then you say you are a ADS slayer and have taken out the best of Pilots. Then you say I am a bad pilot because I want 24-0 and tell me to get good. With that logic, you can say a logistics player is bad because he went 2-4. Maybe learn about roles instead of pulling crap out of your ass and calling yourself smart? *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3113	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:43:00 - [139] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: a brackers wrote: You try and say one good pilot has once got 36 kills meaning that all ads pilots can easily do it. Average kills per lost ship is about 10 against a competent team who knows how to change suits to av. To be profitable it currently takes not losing a ship for the entirety of three matches. This means we run at any forge or rail shots or swarm shots. The reason we kill u is we then know where you are so we use the terrain to sneak up on u and then kill u No the reason why I get killed is because an ADS can fly far far above my tank well out of my range and dive down and shoot at me uncontested by me because I can not aim up high enough to hit you and there is little I can do to stop it, pretending you are using intricate strategy is BS. Maybe try using gunners? Maybe drive in a Heavy with A FG? Maybe get good? You act like I haven't taken Espeon and others out in 1v1 DS v Tank. A forge in a tank! What kind of ***** do you think I am? lol gimp my fit so that the ADS can easily out DPS what my gunners putting out and get wrecked anyway. Maybe get good and stop sucking in your ADS 24-0 your best really. 1. Do you want a cookie? I saw you QQing about how your ass got handed to you by an ADS and you couldn't do sht so I give you a few suggestions that actually work but they might be difficult to take in by a hard head like you. Also, wearing a forge gun on a heavy suit while siting in a tank doesn't change the tanks performance. You must be one of those scrubs that jumps out with a Six Kin Burst. 2. It's not about kills, It's team support. I destroyed vehicles that match coupled with uplinks on buildings which lead us to win that match. If you PC, you know that drop uplink placement is the key to winning. When there are a bunch of Dropsuplinks on a building heavy defended by infantry, you're tank on the ground doesn't do sht. You must be really stupid to base peoples performance on kills. Learn to dust? Yes I'll take one though I would prefer popcorn when reading your posts. If you want to know the proper way to kill an ADS it is to move forward full speed and then stop so the ADS is thrown in front of you or you can activate your fuel injector and launch yourself backwards. They are changing the inertia so that the latter will likely be impossible and the former is next to impossible because you won't connect enough shots to kill it. That would imply I skilled Fotm heavy, the suit doesn't matter because I don't bail I stick with my tank till the end except in PC where I have a Speed hack/link/assault suit depending on the scenario. lol you take pubs far to seriously I slay in pubs and that's pretty much it. I myself am not a pubstar and save my go hard attitude for PC and do not have to try ubber hard in pubs. Pc performance is based on how effective you did your job and Pub performance is mainly based on kills because the enemy team is generally too stupid to clear links and such so aside from deploying strategic links in the beginning you really just have to kill them off the points hack move onto the next one and especially if it's dom which is what I play most of the time it's all about slaying them off the point. Tanker/Logi/Assault
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:52:00 - [140] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Yes I'll take one though I would prefer popcorn when reading your posts. If you want to know the proper way to kill an ADS it is to move forward full speed and then stop so the ADS is thrown in front of you or you can activate your fuel injector and launch yourself backwards. They are changing the inertia so that the latter will likely be impossible and the former is next to impossible because you won't connect enough shots to kill it. That would imply I skilled Fotm heavy, the suit doesn't matter because I don't bail I stick with my tank till the end except in PC where I have a Speed hack/link/assault suit depending on the scenario. lol you take pubs far to seriously I slay in pubs and that's pretty much it. I myself am not a pubstar and save my go hard attitude for PC and do not have to try ubber hard in pubs. Pc performance is based on how effective you did your job and Pub performance is mainly based on kills because the enemy team is generally too stupid to clear links and such so aside from deploying strategic links in the beginning you really just have to kill them off the points hack move onto the next one and especially if it's dom which is what I play most of the time it's all about slaying them off the point. Also, Everybody has their own strategies. The ones that work for me is jumping our and forging the thing. But hey, you were the one complaining about ADS's killing your tank. Maybe use your own advice next time. Not all pubs are full of fresh out of the academy noobs. Also, this was an FW match that I fought on the Caldari Side. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3

Benjamin Ciscko Fatal Absolution 3115	Posted - 2014.09.08 00:57:00 - [141] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Sadly you still fail to realize that you contradict yourself often. At first it is you QQing about how ADS kill your tank, then you say you are a ADS slayer and have taken out the best of Pilots. Then you say I am a bad pilot because I want 24-0 and tell me to get good. With that logic, you can say a logistics player is bad because he went 2-4. Maybe learn about roles instead of pulling crap out of your ass and calling yourself smart? I never said I was an ADS slayer period, it doesn't mean I haven't taken down ADS's I can take a min assault down with a min scout 5 times and lose another 20 that does not make me a min assault slayer. It means I am capable of taking them down but the advantage is certainly in their favor. The role of a Python is to be a slayer the role of a logistics is support the logistics is certainly bad if he goes 2-4 with 350 war points as an ADS you don't have anything really to do with support it's about ASSAULT it's in the name for god sakes, the role is to kill and assault objectives killing has everything to do with it. Tanker/Logi/Assault
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1261	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:14:00 - [142] - Quote Chief-Shotty wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. Let's really try to keep this constructive My concern with this change here is that one of my primary swarm techniques is to lock on and duck behind a wall and angle my launcher so the missiles fire around the wall and go after the target. This protects me more than you think, as I'm able to fire around corners, i can prevent taking more fire or even break contact and relocate while my swarms to their thing. Unfortunately, most walls will be at 90 degree angles or more when i release the swarms. Will they still be able to turn decently enough to use this technique? Although, this technique is mainly against tankers but still I hate to think that the swarms will travel in a really wide arc thus, more likely to hit other obstructions than anticipated. Especially when fighting in close quarter areas with tanks in the streets. the change should actually HELP you in that safe launching. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
jace silencerww Inner.Hell 46	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:17:00 - [143] - Quote lol it is not fair a dropship can hover at 200 meters and pound you with rail or missiles while you are helpless we should have the same range as small missiles 200 meter lock on
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1261	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:21:00 - [144] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. <3 <3 <3<3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 Those three points are EXACTLY what's been needed all these years! Results to be expected: Not much change in swarms launched at far distance. (A)DS reacting to incoming swarm can still relatively easily move away from swarms to evade them. Swarms at close range are (and aimed decently) have very very good chance of hitting, unless (A)DS pilot was finger on AB button. Clumsier swarms may mean that carelessly launched missiles miss/overshoot at close range. Clumsier swarms reward smart evasion by terrain/buildings. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:31:00 - [145] - Quote jace silencerww wrote: lol it is not fair a dropship can hover at 200 meters and pound you with rail or missiles while you are helpless we should have the same range as small missiles 200 meter lock on At 200m, infantry is invisible. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 969	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:33:00 - [146] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Clumsier swarms may mean that carelessly launched missiles miss/overshoot at close range. Clumsier swarms reward smart evasion by terrain/buildings. "Clumsier"? An increasing turn radius alone will not prevent swarm missiles from continuing pursuit of the target after being over shot. Nor will it prevent swarms from following their targets behind cover such as terrain or buildings. This is explained in the link below. Link What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 890	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:35:00 - [147] - Quote Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Sadly you still fail to realize that you contradict yourself often. At first it is you QQing about how ADS kill your tank, then you say you are a ADS slayer and have taken out the best of Pilots. Then you say I am a bad pilot because I want 24-0 and tell me to get good. With that logic, you can say a logistics player is bad because he went 2-4. Maybe learn about roles instead of pulling crap out of your ass and calling yourself smart? I never said I was an ADS slayer period, it doesn't mean I haven't taken down ADS's I can take a min assault down with a min scout 5 times and lose another 20 that does not make me a min assault slayer. It means I am capable of taking them down but the advantage is certainly in their favor. The role of a Python is to be a slayer the role of a logistics is support the logistics is certainly bad if he goes 2-4 with 350 war points as an ADS you don't have anything really to do with support it's about ASSAULT it's in the name for god sakes, the role is to kill and assault objectives killing has everything to do with it. Killing tanks, assaulting tanks, scaring people away, destroying up links. That is my role, sometimes objectives are in the open, and other times they are not. ADS isn't good on every map. Evolution-7 went 44-0 back then when incubus was indestructible but it was on an open map. It was the two creator map with the dom objective in middile that has close to no cover. Also- stomping noobs isn't the same as stomping ADV-PRO players. 24 PRO-ADV kills > 40+ militia kills. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 351	Posted - 2014.09.08 01:55:00 - [148] - Quote BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Lol, Forges require you to spec into heavy suits, which most people are not willing. Been here since Mordus Private Trials Closed Beta Vet under 30 million SP ;-;
Hector Carson Hellz Gate of Awakening 7	Posted - 2014.09.08 02:29:00 - [149] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: You can increase swarm speed to 60m/s or 600m/s, doesn't change the fact that a small rail dropship can hover at 200m, picking off infantry with impunity from outside swarm range. Just by saying this they are now going to nerf the weapon range for ADS lol should of kept your mouth shut bro.
Mat'DeVrie Bezimienni... Dark Taboo 7	Posted - 2014.09.08 03:21:00 - [150] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Lol, Forges require you to spec into heavy suits, which most people are not willing. You are WRONG! You DO NOT need to spec into Heavy suits !! You can fit a forgegun into MILITIA heavy dropsuit! ---- It does NOT require ANY skillpoints investment!

Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 204	Posted - 2014.09.08 03:34:00 - [151] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Lol, Forges require you to spec into heavy suits, which most people are not willing. Most people are not willing to put a measly 25,000sp to get a STD dropsuit? Wow... that's excessively stubborn. My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Mat'DeVrie Bezimienni... Dark Taboo 7	Posted - 2014.09.08 03:40:00 - [152] - Quote CCP Rattatai! Let me catch up after you. You - devs -want to make those expensive ADSes even more VULNERABLE? LIsten what we do nowadays: - Enemy take a Python (2555 HP shield, 960 armor) - means, he might have Afterburner and LShieldBooster + gunner's ATMissileTurret; then he go with his gunner to search for any target - mostly over an objective/turret/respawn point - I & two my sqdmated - 2 scouts with Wyirkomi SL + 1 Kaalakiota Forgegunner - we take LAV we go to a good spot - two of us wait in cloak - as soon as this Pilot is in lock-range we send 1st volley combo - our f gunner waits until there is direct hit and does finishi the job hard way! :DD - OUTCOME: ADS crew is dead - they dont know what happend and they aren't even aware about our whereabouts - well we are long gone; What - you want to f*** the ADS pilots life even harder? They wont be able to outrun swarm's volleys? They barely can outrun them now! Pilots cant see or pinpoint the location of SL users coz they do not RENDER for them! Go on NERF everything! You gonna loose even more customers!
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4071	Posted - 2014.09.08 03:50:00 - [153] - Quote Hell if you are even that lazy to invest SP then you might want to get a militia forgegun. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4829	Posted - 2014.09.08 05:00:00 - [154] - Quote Mat'DeVrie wrote: CCP Rattatai! Let me catch up after you. You - devs -want to make those expensive ADSes even more VULNERABLE? LIsten what we do nowadays: - Enemy take a Python (2555 HP shield, 960 armor) - means, he might have Afterburner and LShieldBooster + gunner's ATMissileTurret; then he go with his gunner to search for any target - mostly over an objective/turret/respawn point - I & two my sqdmated - 2 scouts with Wyirkomi SL + 1 Kaalakiota Forgegunner - we take LAV we go to a good spot - two of us wait in cloak - as soon as this Pilot is in lock-range we send 1st volley combo - our f gunner waits until there is direct hit and does finishi the job hard way! :DD - OUTCOME: ADS crew is dead - they dont know what happend and they aren't even aware about our whereabouts - well we are long gone; What - you want to f*** the ADS pilots life even harder? They wont be able to outrun swarm's volleys? They barely can outrun them now! Pilots cant see or pinpoint the location of SL users coz they do not RENDER for them! Go on NERF everything! You gonna loose even more customers! Thank you for the refreshingly honest scenario. Do you think it unreasonable to lower the Proto AV "teamwork quotient" by one merc? Your Scenario: 3 infantry + proto AV + sync'd strike > 1 ADS New Scenario: 2 infantry + proto AV + sync'd strike > 1 ADS Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Mat'DeVrie Bezimienni... Dark Taboo 7	Posted - 2014.09.08 05:13:00 - [155] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Mat'DeVrie wrote: CCP Rattatai! Let me catch up after you. You - devs -want to make those expensive ADSes even more VULNERABLE? LIsten what we do nowadays: - Enemy take a Python (2555 HP shield, 960 armor) - means, he might have Afterburner and LShieldBooster + gunner's ATMissileTurret; then he go with his gunner to search for any target - mostly over an objective/turret/respawn point - I & two my sqdmated - 2 scouts with Wyirkomi SL + 1 Kaalakiota Forgegunner - we take LAV we go to a good spot - two of us wait in cloak - as soon as this Pilot is in lock-range we send 1st volley combo - our f gunner waits until there is direct hit and does finishi the job hard way! :DD - OUTCOME: ADS crew is dead - they dont know what happend and they aren't even aware about our whereabouts - well we are long gone; What - you want to f*** the ADS pilots life even harder? They wont be able to outrun swarm's volleys? They barely can outrun them now! Pilots cant see or pinpoint the location of SL users coz they do not RENDER for them! Go on NERF everything! You gonna loose even more customers! Thank you for the refreshingly honest scenario. Do you think it unreasonable to lower the Proto AV "teamwork quotient" by one merc? Your Scenario: 3 infantry + proto AV + sync'd strike > 1 ADS New Scenario: 2 infantry + proto AV + sync'd strike > 1 ADS Dude - 3x AV infantry can easily fit to my blueprint BoodRider Saga - 0 ISK - disposable LAV that we can call one after another; if called properly - the RDV can destroy hovering ADS - good TROLoLLolo :DD if we do it right and fast we go back to supply depo - refit and go back to killing :D
Alilynn SilverShaper Ekipa Remontowo Budowlana 2	Posted - 2014.09.08 05:28:00 - [156] - Quote Yeee... Do the math yourselves, guys :D Imagine 3x Militia forgegun combo 'on three' + militia SL volley that will catch those bastards pilots anyway :D, done by post-academy noobs :D ADS sqd costs - 500k ISK AV sqd costs less than 30-50k ISK WTF CCP? trollo us again and again?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4829	Posted - 2014.09.08 09:59:00 - [157] - Quote So ... 3+ prototype units chasing around one wascally wabbit? Every other unit in the game can be effectively solo'd. Except for this one. The most mobile one of all. This wascal requires focused fire from 3 or more. Let's decrease its price. PS: I'm 100% in favor of ADS price decrease, and I'm 100% in favor of not being able to solo an ADS with one clip from my max proficiency Swarms. Two of me should do the trick provided we catch the wabbit off guard. Three of me is one too many. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 741	Posted - 2014.09.08 12:34:00 - [158] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: So ... Every other unit in the game can be effectively solo'd. Except for this one. The most mobile one of all. This wascal requires focused fire from 3 or more. Let's decrease its price. Not true. An ADS can be solo'd and to say otherwise is disingenuous. The matter is really how fair it is for an ADS to be able to escape relatively at will. Currently, a decent Swarmer (MinCom 3+ or using CBR7+) will kill an ADS in about 4 - 5 volleys (roughly 8-10 seconds?) What defence does the ADS have: - Tank: an ADS has enough tank to survive roughly 3 volleys. The 4th will bring them down unless they are supremely tanked out (Python can reach 3244 shields/960 armour, or in Swarm terms: 3892.8/768 or 4660.8 EHP vs the explosive profile. 4x CBR7 volleys is 4576 damage; 84.8 away from dropping the most heavily tanked Python possible - Proficiency 3+ will make up that 84.8 difference. Incubi are worse off, due to the explosive profile/Proficiency applying against the primary tank.) What this means: tanking an ADS is not the means by which the vehicle survives, it is merely the first line of defence. - Range: an ADS has a gun with an effective range of 200m and has the advantage of speed to maintain whatever distance they need. This range is 25m more than the lock-on range of a Swarm Launcher and carries with it substantial issues with rendering. Range also has a great impact on accuracy, as even rendered infantry are tiny at ranges as low as 80m, let alone 200m. Combine that with the fact that hovering in one place to maintain that range advantage is a lot harder than ground-pounders would have you believe: Yawing to shoot at targets has a small amount of roll/pitch to it, requiring constant readjustment to keep the craft steady, while - due to no instrumentation - there is the great possibility of significant drift, due to very minor craft alignment errors, potentially bringing you into range of enemies. What this means: ADSs have a range advantage vs Swarm Launchers (not against other AV, such as Forge Guns and Large Turrets) and that advantage is small whilst also being difficult to maintain, not to mention difficult to fully utilise, even with a side gunner (which also reduces the tank capability.) Speed: the ADSs primary defence. The sky has very little cover and an ADS is often exposed to anyone who has an AV weapon in the area. The ADSs main advantage is being able to engage/disengage at relative will. This is where the ADS gets the majority of its power, by dictating most engagements. The real jewel in the ADSs speed cap is the Afterburner which lets us accelerate to top speed almost immediately and gives us the speed necessary to avoid Swarms. Without an Afterburner, Swarms will catch an ADS unless certain specific circumstances are met: already traveling away, angling down for extra acceleration and have enough space to continue in a straight line: without an Afterburner, ADSs can be caught by Swarms readily. What this means: any reduction to speed/increase in range/speed of AV will have a disproportionately high impact on ADS effectiveness. Currently, a single ADV Swarmer (with 0 Proficiency or MinCom) will drop the most heavily tanked ADS in 5 shots. The likelihood of landing 5 shots is low, because of the ADSs speed, which it uses when in danger to defend itself. Add in MinCom and/or Proficiency 5 and an ADS is staring at 4-shot-death: with both MinCom 5/Prof 5, a Swarmer will be doing 1006.72 vs shields/1736.592 vs armour (Python: 3503.52/587.52 or a total of 4091.04 EHP vs a MinCom 5/Prof 5 CBR7: not even a Wiyrkomi, which is doing 1098.24/1894.464: 4 volleys will definitely kill a Python at max skills.) Essentially, the reason why Swarms do not kill every ADS is because of Afterburners, which is news to no one. But any change to Afterburners will have a huge impact on ADS survival rates: something which is very important since wee are flying the most expensive item in the game and since we do have ISK in the game which actually does restrict what is available to players. Since ISK is present and essentially a ** in the ointment of any balance, a change to Swarms to increase the rate at which ADSs are destroyed much come with a more than small price reduction. Adipem Nothing wrote:** PS: I'm 100% in favor of ADS price decrease, and I'm 100% in favor of not being able to solo an ADS with one clip of proto Swarms. Two of guys like me should do the trick, provided we catch the wabbit off guard and time our strikes right. Three of me is one too many. I agree. Requiring 3 protofits vs 1 anything should never be the situation. Things is (this isn't really to do with the above quote) that one Swarm can do the job in a reasonable amount of time/ammo (4 shots, essentially) but due to the massive cost of flying an ADS, pilots have found the best way (Afterburners) and have learned to run at the first sign of trouble because getting an extra kill or two just simply isn't worth losing ISK for two matches in a row. Retreating and returning to fight once recharged is completely fine: but the rate at which damage is dealt to us (4000ish damage in about 5/6 seconds) is still faster that the ADS replenishes its tank. A Python dropped from 2500 shields down to 1500 takes roughly 8-9 seconds (4 second delay; 224/second recharge = 1000hp in 4.6 seconds/8.46 including delay): if dropped into armour, it takes that long for shields to begin recharging, and longer to get back to full: 20 odd seconds for 2500 shields from armour. That kind of recharge rate seems fine, considering that recharge is always inferior to damage application speed: but there are many comments and opinions floating about that ADSs recharge too fast, yet a Swarm will drop any ADS in about 9/10 seconds unless they flee. Alt of Halla Murr.
Cody Sietz Evzones Public.Disorder. 3987	Posted - 2014.09.08 13:31:00 - [159] - Quote jace silencerww wrote: lol it is not fair a dropship can hover at 200 meters and pound you with rail or missiles while you are helpless we should have the same range as small missiles 200 meter lock on No it's pretty fair, they have a limited engagement window and to stick to it. What's not fair is when they can drop below their engagement, take a few hits, then return to normal with no drawback. "I do agree with you there though. shudders" -Arkena Wyrnspire
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:53:00 - [160] - Quote hey your invited to board my Python so you can see whats wrong with it. fair enough? DROPSHIP CAPTAIN

DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:54:00 - [161] - Quote so 1 person can take out a 42 million sp ads? i paid money for a scrub to kill me and not allow me to get away as is IM LOOSING SO MUCH ******* ISK FROM ADS GIVE ME A RESPEC DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:56:00 - [162] - Quote YES AND TAKE HIT ESPECIALLY THE PYTHON SINCE SWARMS ARE OP MAKE THE PYTHON OVER POWER OVER AND OVER DAMAGE WITH NO FLAWS. THAT FAIR I PAID MONEY NO ONE HAS A SAY. DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:56:00 - [163] - Quote NO NO NO MAKE MY SHIP AT 43 MIL SP HARDEST THING FOR YOU TO KILL! DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 16:58:00 - [164] - Quote WRONG! MAKE THE PYTHON A SHIP YOU NEED 42 to 50 Million SP OPERATE LIKE A TITAN AS FAR AS HEATH AND DAMAGE CHECK YOU MY SKILL TREE I AM OP BUT I GET KILLED ALOT BY SCUBS LOOK AND TE MATH OF MY SHIP LOOK @ IT! I WANT A FULL RESPEC GO BIG OR GO HOME! DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:00:00 - [165] - Quote BUT THAT IS HOW ADS WORKS RIGHT? OR IS THE PYTHON SUPPOSED TO BE AN ISK PINATA?! DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:01:00 - [166] - Quote DUH ITS AN ADS NOT SOME *** PACK FROM CALL OF DUTY LOL I WANT A LP Python since your ***** EVERYTHING UP! DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:02:00 - [167] - Quote I KNOW RIGHT IF I HAD THE MONEY TO BUY EVE & DUST the FORUMS WOULD BE GONE AND I WOULD MAKE THE GAME HOW I SEE FIT AND CLOSED ALL FORUMS, YOU PEOPLE *** TOO MUCH AND RUIN ** OVER NIGHT. DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:04:00 - [168] - Quote NO you only want some people to use thing and others to not your ruined my ads at 43 sp i want a respec but you dont give a rats ass your rattati of C C P for people to shoot the messenger. hey DEVs do you even play dust514 to even see what it needs? apparently not. DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:06:00 - [169] - Quote Im just going to crash ships into people since that is what people do to me from now on friendly or foe, this game is trashed by people who have no life, no family, no soul. i hope you get hurt for all this stealing and theft by deception. I can write what ever but you pissed me and ads pilots alike~ DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:08:00 - [170] - Quote no crap the python is a missile ship but the no life nerds want me to be up-close to my tv screen killing them on dot and on point. aim bot time DROPSHIP CAPTAIN

DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:10:00 - [171] - Quote At 200m, infantry is invisible. [/quote] AHHHHH MAKE MY 43 Mill SP PYTHON BETTER I WANT MORE HEATH ARMOR AND AGILITY DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
DROPSHIP CAPTAIN ICE-9 PROJECT 48	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:11:00 - [172] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Benjamin Ciscko wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills. Its true the top 100 killers in dust are only dropship pilots....and every match i've ever flown in or seen an ADs its usually no less than 30 kills I'll never understand the attitude that says "if anything escapes death its OP." I've got 2 adv Logi and a proto logi. I got ammar minmatar and caldari assault. Gallente and minmatar scout. All of the basic heavy medium and light suits suits.Ammar setinel and minmat commando Madrugars and gunlogis. All the lavs, every turret at ADV except large missiles. And of course my beloved Incubus. All of the light weapons and side arms. And i have never on a consistent basis seen dropships at the top of the kill board no matter who i fly with, gun for or see fly against me (whether on the ground or in the air). As in more than one match a day. Maybe a week. I do squad up with Judge and Evo 7, and i've seen some really good dropship pilots in my time. Heavies and scouts dominate each match kill wise, with the odd assault suit in there and perhaps a really good blaster tank. That mythical KD ratio of dropships is only apparent in the fact that since i dont want to loose my ship i might get, lets say ten kills in one match and maybe 7 in another. Because i'll come in take out a few troops and then spend the rest of the match afterburning away from any AV. Or i'll recal and fight it out on the ground because theres too much AV up right now. The third macth when i do lose my ship my dropship went 17 and 1 but over several matches strung out over a long period of time. Which is what you would expect of anyone risking 500,000 isk, you should "git gud" at keeping it alive, otherwise you would not be able to afford bringing them out. Ratattis response to me keeping my very expensive asset alive over long period of time is that 'well it should die more often" The most popular way to do this is to make sure the only fire and forget weapon in the game is ensured a kill. Make sure our only counter measure to any AV the afterburner is nerfed. I can dance and try to make a forge gunner or rail tank or another dropship miss, which is already hard to do seeing as the incubus is physically larger than tanks. I cannot make a swarm launcer miss unless i afterburn the hell out of dodge. 3 hits will kill my ship dead. currently 2 swam hits are gaurnteed. Rattati's efforts at makeing sure the third gets me is akin to buffing the shotgun so that instead of three or four shots to kill a proto heavy it should be one shot, because heavies dont die as often as scout suits. Its only apparent how often dropships die to those who fly them. You can't balance off of lack of kniwledge, the numbers being used to quantify how dropship are used only tell half the story. If you dont factor in the time, effort, sp and skill requred to fly the damn things let alone 'git gud' how can you tell whether it balanced or not? Ask yourself this, should we balancy the infantry suits around the kill board? Should we balance the game soley around the KD ratio top 100 players? Or should we use numbers and experience of in equal measure? Truth be told swarms are extremely dangerous thats why pilots run away, in the same vien that snipers are dangerous and that when under sniper fire everybody in every suits uses cover. Yet i don't see snipers calling for a reduction in infantry sprint speed to make sure you can't get to cover in time. Because it wouldnt be balanced. Some of the ideas i can get behind, such as assault swarm variants with more range, high speed but less DPS. I cannot get behind 3 wyrokamis volleys being garunteed hits. I hope one beats his head in with a ball-peen hammer if you think you can get away with ruining the ship **** you too! DROPSHIP CAPTAIN
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.08 17:18:00 - [173] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? I am an ADS and NDS pilot (depending on situation and how many gunners I have). I honestly do not want ADS to become cheaper, I don't want to see them everywhere. The choice to call one in, during a match, has to be about upping the ante. In other words, youre arming your team with a great weapon in order to win or accomplish a specific goal. Even as a dropship pilot, i do NOT think I should be allowed to call in a ship every match without thought or question or purpose. Calling in a dropship should remain a tough choice to help turn the tide of a fight, not be an automatic reaction to the start of any match.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 745	Posted - 2014.09.08 18:36:00 - [174] - Quote DROPSHIP CAPTAIN: putting the 'Derp' in Dropship... Alt of Halla Murr.
Re3F Hellstorm Inc General Tso's Alliance 4	Posted - 2014.09.08 18:41:00 - [175] - Quote devs please take a look, as this ties to the hotfix https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2350569#post2350569
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1196	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:03:00 - [176] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Hello again, we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well. In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters. Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes. 1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it. Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner. 3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain. 4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes. 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself. 6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors. 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them. Let's really try to keep this constructive I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. I've been forcing myself to fly the ADS most every match (now that I got my python to level 5) and I really do not fully understand your reasoning for this. What are you doing??? I find it incredibly foolish to say that swarms are having a terrible time against an ADS. Often times, the ability to outrun swarms is the ONLY defense against swarms. It's that or die to the 3 volleys comin your way. And there is another factor, knockback, that makes it VERY difficult to engage someone swarming your ADS, even if you are able to tank the damage for a limited time (often this is only the case when the swarms are less than proto). Hell there were numerous times in my games yesterday where I over extended my engagement with a swarm, barely outrunning the last volley, and STILL NOT KILLING THE SWARMER. And I'm not half bad with an ADS. Yes I did rack up a decent kill count in my games, between 7 - 14, but this is due to me avoiding or blocking a swarmer's LOS as I engage his friends. And sure I downed some swarmers (low level ones in scout suits), but when it comes to a minmando or just 2 swarmers bangin away, it's best to not even bother with that area. I just don't understand man, I really wish you would look at it through our eyes for a change. Try flying one of those things and then tell us it's too easy for an ADS pilot. You might find it FAR easier from the swarmers POV. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 748	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:11:00 - [177] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. Alt of Halla Murr.
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:32:00 - [178] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. Despite what I said earlier, I must admit these are very valid points.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2669	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:44:00 - [179] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2670	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:50:00 - [180] - Quote Mat'DeVrie wrote: You are WRONG! You DO NOT need to spec into Heavy suits !! You can fit a forgegun into MILITIA heavy dropsuit! ---- It does NOT require ANY skillpoints investment! Hilariously correct. Except for the fact that the militia forge gun is only slightly more effective as an AV weapon than militia swarms. Prototype weapons (forge guns) kill ADS in three shots. Swarms are basically 4th of July firecracker lauchers we use to celebrate Impotence Day!

Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1198	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:02:00 - [181] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So you merely want the advantage PURELY in your hands. I don't know about you but that's the very definition of an imbalance. And it's very foolish to assume the ADS is unkillable as is. Just because YOU can't take one down doesn't mean others don't take them down regularly. It's typically the better pilots that manage to escape a swarm launcher, and even still they do go down. Much like bad tankers burn all the time yet the good ones you come across seem unkillable. It's skills, and sorry, you can't just expect to pump a few missiles into something to blow it up. Even you yourself NEED to use tactics, much like that ADS does. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 751	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:33:00 - [182] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? That's not even close to what I said. WP for vehicle damage was introduced because a lot of effort could be put into repelling vehicles, yet it wasn't rewarded. Now it is, and handsomely so. For firing two volleys of Swarms at an ADS you get more points than for killing another clone, hacking a non-NULL Cannon installation or for destroying a CRU. The current bent of V/AV 'balancing' is essentially looking at ADSs and going, "We should totally be able to kill those more easily, even though we get a ton of points (and thus payout) for just driving them off, let alone when we actually do bring them down we get more points still." If Swarms (AV in general really) is capable of dropping an ADS out of the sky easily, then there is pretty much no reason for vehicle damage points to exist in the form they currently inhabit: which is a ***-ton of points. If ADSs are to die easily, then why should you get rewarded with roughly 300 WP just just firing a Swarm Launcher 3/4 times when the ADS has to struggle through bad target identification (tiny infantry targets), coming under attack with zero warning (ie, Swarms impacting on your ship without any indication of them being fired) and with the insane cost of minimum 340,000 ISK per dropship (assuming entirely militia fitting) when were looking at making Swarms more effective.* Swarms are not incapable of destroying ADSs, even solo or paired. But the ADS has significant hurdles to overcome to actually be effective, not least of which is the enormous cost of maintaining the role. Either costs plummet, and AV gets to shoot down the WP pi+¦atas, or costs stay the same and we get to keep our relative resilience (which consists of running away and not contributing whenever AV is brought out at all.) Breakin Stuff wrote: all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So, you don't want the huge WP, and you do want to see us explode more? Then why is a price reduction that means we don't run ISK negative for two games minimum because we lost a single ship unreasonable? If we are to lose multiple ships to one AVer each match, why should we be paying more than 3 Proto suits worth of ISK each time? Surely if an ADS is to be so vulnerable to AV, it's cheap to manufacture - or why ******* bother!? You want more explosions. We want to be able to bring out more ships that you will be able to shoot down. Where's the issue? Especially since if were easy to shoot down like you want, then we will not be 'stomping' like everyone complains about. Alt of Halla Murr.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 205	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:34:00 - [183] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So you're still not content when you can easily farm 2000wp just by shooting at us? Greedy little bastard aren't you? And as those war points are related to vehicle damage/destruction, that also means that you get exponentially more isk. The payout starts around 400k... and you're still not content with that? I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
danthrax martin Butcher's Nails 114	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:54:00 - [184] - Quote I don't care about WP, they just happen when an ADS farms infantry and runs from other vehicles... Pro Galmando - Gal Sentinel Suicidal A/V Moron
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:47:00 - [185] - Quote I don't even Swarm. I kill ADS with the forge gun. Right tool for the right job. I use swarms when I want to celebrate Impotence Day with fireworks. And I never said I wanted them to be EASY mode. I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:48:00 - [186] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 752	Posted - 2014.09.08 22:55:00 - [187] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the ADS price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones. Swarms do threaten ADSs, which is why they invariably GTFO of dodge the moment they get hit by the first volley of Swarms. I am offended by the way that certain people think that a Swarm should be able to drop my extremely expensive vehicle while also naysaying any price reduction. As I've said, if my ADS is to be shot down often to a single AVer, it needs to be substantially cheaper (ie, less than 200k) but if it is to remain expensive then a single Swarmer should not be able to shoot me down trivially just because they decided to pull out their 30k ISK AV Commando suit. I'm fine with my ADS dropping out of the sky every time I pull it out. I am not OK with it costing 10 times the cost of an AV suit each time. Either: - ADS is cheap and easily shot down Or - ADS stays expensive and is difficult to shoot down. Honestly, I'd rather we have some medium in the middle: the current state of V/AV balance is such that this is the case, especially since WP for vehicle damage is a factor (ie,rewarding AV for repelling and not outright destroying.) V/AV is about more than Swarms and ADSs: Forge Guns kill ADSs and are difficult to both use against an ADS (due to an ADSs speed/mobility) and counter by an ADS (due to the FGs power and requirement to stay mobile making shots difficult) making the FG/ADS balance excellent. The Swarm/ADS balance is not too far off: Swarms kick out a lot of power with relatively little expertise required (that is to say, a relative newbie to swarms will be able to perform adequately at repelling an ADS, while a veteran Swarmer will be able to chase and position much more effectively) and have advantages due to poor game optimisation (ie,non-rendering Swarms) and other intangibles (infantry being very small targets for ADSs, for example.) A lot of the talks about 'balancing' ADSs seems to come from the notion that ADSs need to get shot down more frequently. Why do ADSs need to be shot down more frequently? I ask that as a genuine question. A good ADS pilot is one who is alert constantly while they are anywhere near the danger zone and will retreat when hit (due to the fact that lacking cover and having relatively low tanking maximums requires retreat and reevaluation of the situation each time) - this means that whenever they retreat they have been suppressed from actively affecting the battle for between 10-30 seconds at a time: and this kind of suppression can be performed in about 5/6 seconds by a single Swarm user. Really, the question is, why is an ADSs survivability an issue when suppression is rewarded? If suppression is not enough, such that a nerf to ADSs/buff to swarms is required,why would the reward for suppression remain, and why would the price point for ADSs remain exorbitantly high? (That turned into a longer post than originally intended :P) Alt of Halla Murr.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 205	Posted - 2014.09.08 23:22:00 - [188] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout. Not true at all, I know you can get points just damaging vehicles... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3481	Posted - 2014.09.09 01:11:00 - [189] - Quote I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
emm kay G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 190	Posted - 2014.09.09 02:07:00 - [190] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. The PlC knocks us around like flies. The mlt forge gun with mlt caldari heavy for 1,000 isk downs a vessel worth 700x more than that. Also bumping this quote. Fine china with bugs is not a plate to eat off of. Jebus McKing wrote: I guess you are fixing rendering range problems aswell then? It's really awesome being shot at by a couple of swarmers/forgers and you will never know their location because they won't render if you are not within 10m of their location. And being knocked around like crazy when being hit by anything in the wrong spot. And that bug that makes you zoom in while in 3rd person view so you can't see anything except the butt of your ADS. And Incubus surviving when ramming a Python? And ADS ISK costs? I still question the usefulness of ADS and I don't think making it easier to fight them while keeping their high costs is fair. Losing an ADS is too expensive to justify reducing their effectiveness, IMO. So if you make it easier to fight them, please, reduce their costs aswell. kthx -- You called, sir?

Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 893	Posted - 2014.09.09 02:26:00 - [191] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6785	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:24:00 - [192] - Quote These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:37:00 - [193] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout. Not true at all, I know you can get points just damaging vehicles... Warpoints affect if you get a higher % of the total payment for the match. But 2000 WP fighting militia dropsuits and no vehicles runs about 250-300k Blowing protostompers and expensive HAV and ADS can double it. Only if you actually destroy though. Its a bad system. But for balance swarmers need to have a reasonable chance of killing ADS. There is no reality where I believe ADS always being killed by swarms is any better for balance than ADS automatically escaping. You lose 500k isk for losing an ADS. If you run AV proto is the only way to threaten most vehicles. When you run dedicated AV and encounter hostile infantry. Losing three to four proto AV suits is not uncommon trying tokill a good ADS or HAV driver so the cost achieves parity.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:41:00 - [194] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Nice! Thank you rattati for providing me more dropships to kill! You are my favorite dev now. Im all for vehicles to be more plentiful.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:46:00 - [195] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. Killing a 25 million SP tank or ADS driver requires a 25 milion SP AV gunner to do with any measure of consistency. One thing I will give playing my tank alt after a year hiatus is GODDAMN WHY IS THERE NO WAY TO FIT THOSE BAD BOYS? The only PG/CPU skill I dont have is large turret optimization. Cant fit an advanced module fit on a madrugar... have trouble fitting BASIC. Tell me your seekrits. No wonder most of them are so damn easy to kill.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3104	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:54:00 - [196] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Nice! Thank you rattati for providing me more dropships to kill! You are my favorite dev now. Im all for vehicles to be more plentiful. He's not even a Dev... Sad when someone they pulled from a non-development department gets put in charge of game support, and more gets done in a handful of months than has gotten done in 2 years. \o/ PRAISE THE RATATOUILLE! Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 359	Posted - 2014.09.09 08:08:00 - [197] - Quote could you fix the blaster circle to be like the missle reticile so in third person it is not straight down
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3481	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:18:00 - [198] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 42	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:58:00 - [199] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD As most of the av said before five pages of arguments started, 200k for a reasonably fitted ads should be fair. Yes to start with there will be a few more ships in the air but that will go back to normal. Also as one av person stated on page 9, they mainly like watching us crash and explode so they should like more ships. Even with the small turret price reduction (good idea, encourages people to have multiple gunners, increasing teamwork) the ads price should be around 140 - 150k so is fittable for around 200k. Can I also again request a change to the way afterburners work. I request the increase maneuverability as well as just speed. Ie, we can go up faster, DOWN faster and turn faster. This will help as you are now expecting us to evade swarms by ducking behind buildings or into trenches and cuttings. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 42	Posted - 2014.09.09 12:06:00 - [200] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter

Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 740	Posted - 2014.09.09 12:11:00 - [201] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Cooldown numbers seem fair. Are there still plans to make it so that each tier gives more of a speed boost? Because I'll reiterate what I said before hand, a cooldown reduction (especially of only 10 seconds between STD and PRO) alone won't justify the increased cost both in ISK and in the hit you'll take on your fitting. There needs to be a more tangible difference in the tiers of these modules (... and Vehicle Active Scanners) or else the fitting requirements for these modules need to be rebalanced. In any case the price looks good. This combined with the small turret price reduction will easily cut my ADS fits in half and will undoubtedly incentivize my use of PRO small turrets in LAVs as well.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6796	Posted - 2014.09.09 13:01:00 - [202] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Cooldown numbers seem fair. Are there still plans to make it so that each tier gives more of a speed boost? Because I'll reiterate what I said before hand, a cooldown reduction (especially of only 10 seconds between STD and PRO) alone won't justify the increased cost both in ISK and in the hit you'll take on your fitting. There needs to be a more tangible difference in the tiers of these modules (... and Vehicle Active Scanners) or else the fitting requirements for these modules need to be rebalanced. In any case the price looks good. This combined with the small turret price reduction will easily cut my ADS fits in half and will undoubtedly incentivize my use of PRO small turrets in LAVs as well. Well that's exactly the intent. We mulled over the speed boost, either tiered starting at 150% or ending at 150% but we need to know how the new swarm acceleration and top speed behaves first, so we will revisit. For now, just the cooldown, and same duration and speed boost. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3484	Posted - 2014.09.09 13:34:00 - [203] - Quote a brackers wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. And in pub matches you shouldn't really be roling round in more than 70k worth of HAV. I've no problem with the ADS reduction. My ADS fits are currently 420k so whoever is telling you 800k is running full PRO. As for SP your looking at 26.7 Mil, so once again whoever is telling you that is talking out their backside. With proposed reduction to 200,000 for your hull and turret price reduction, you should be able to make a profit, even if you loose 1 dropship, provided you pull your weight or win! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 758	Posted - 2014.09.09 14:23:00 - [204] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You lose 500k isk for losing an ADS. If you run AV proto is the only way to threaten most vehicles. When you run dedicated AV and encounter hostile infantry. Losing three to four proto AV suits is not uncommon trying tokill a good ADS or HAV driver so the cost achieves parity. PRO AV is most definitely not the only way to threaten vehicles. I'm at MinCom 3/SwarmOp 3 and I can threaten all vehicles with death: do I kill every ADS I come across? No, but nor should I. Quite simply, even with the 30,000ish ISK MinCom suit I run, I can kill an ADS that lingers, during which time I am almost certainly surviving the 1-on-1 due to knock back throwing off their aim and my own ability to judge their aiming capabilities. PRO AV is not necessary to threaten vehicles. That is, very plainly, a bare faced lie. Reducing price down to 200k for the hull is a good start and will be a big break to every pilot. (My standard Python fit costs 420,00ish, so that brings it down to 320k: my Incubus is 518,000, so 418,000 will be welcome.) I think the proposed 30% ISK reduction for small turrets may be a little too much, particularly at PRO. A PRO small turret is about 100k, I think 80k for a PRO small turret wouldn't be unreasonable and would fit the baby steps approach! Alt of Halla Murr.
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 44	Posted - 2014.09.09 14:46:00 - [205] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: a brackers wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. And in pub matches you shouldn't really be roling round in more than 70k worth of HAV. I've no problem with the ADS reduction. My ADS fits are currently 420k so whoever is telling you 800k is running full PRO. As for SP your looking at 26.7 Mil, so once again whoever is telling you that is talking out their backside. With proposed reduction to 200,000 for your hull and turret price reduction, you should be able to make a profit, even if you loose 1 dropship, provided you pull your weight or win! I make my python fairly cheap at 400k. That's 80k of modules (give or take). With the reduction in small turrets which won't be any more than 20 or 25% that's 73k of modules. I don't know about you but it's pretty tricky to get 273k per match given with this swarm change most matches you'll lose it. That's why I keep suggesting 120k - 140k especially given its still much less survivable than that 70k of tank you were talking about. (Also btw average tank in Pub's is about 120k as quite a few people run std tanks) Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 720	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:41:00 - [206] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2 3) reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) I finally got around to trying the Grimsnes lately (greeting a brackers! You shot down my vehicle alt today ) so I now feel like I can give feedback on the effect of these changes on both NDS. Anyways, here's my feedback: Swarm speed and acceleration improvements will negatively affect the NDS. The NDS will likely not be able to outmaneuver swarms even after the change to turn radius, quite simply because they turn like a brick. I thus support the buff to NDS ehp. None of my fittings would become ridiculous if I added a flat 1000 hp. The Myron will get pretty insane temporary hp (8-10k depending on armament) if it dual-hardens, but that will be offset by the downtime between hardener cycles. I've seen your proposed numbers for afterburner cooldown. Full support from me. If you want to make NDS use the "wave of opportunity" design more I'd suggest adding the extra hp to the vehicle's main tank. That way they are affected by hardeners.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2692	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:49:00 - [207] - Quote Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb.
Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 104	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:17:00 - [208] - Quote Rattati, can u please check the swarm proficiency skill is applying correctly? I've just put two levels into it and I have some doubts
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 720	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:21:00 - [209] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vanilla dropships Go on and give them a try. I think they are being under-appreciated. A Myron will without failure deploy 4 heavies and two logis to any place on the map, even against multiple AV. A Grimsnes makes for a wonderful gunboat that can ferry around your heavies as a bonus.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3352	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:22:00 - [210] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb. I think regular DSes should be pretty tanky. They're a lot more balanced than HAVs, in that you need a separate gunner to do damage with them, and in their primary role as a transport vehicle, they need to be able to successfully drop people into a hot zone. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.

Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 894	Posted - 2014.09.09 19:49:00 - [211] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD That is wayyy to long. It should be Militia 30 Basic 25 ADV 20 PROTO 15 Also, price of ADS should be 150k for the hull. 200k isk is still more than a match worth of playing. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 894	Posted - 2014.09.09 19:52:00 - [212] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. Killing a 25 million SP tank or ADS driver requires a 25 milion SP AV gunner to do with any measure of consistency. One thing I will give playing my tank alt after a year hiatus is GODDAMN WHY IS THERE NO WAY TO FIT THOSE BAD BOYS? The only PG/CPU skill I dont have is large turret optimization. Cant fit an advanced module fit on a madrugar... have trouble fitting BASIC. Tell me your seekrits. No wonder most of them are so damn easy to kill. my BPO sentinel has no problem fitting an ishukone AFG. I have no problem dropping ADS with an ADV AFG. My STD scout can easily fit a swarm launcher as well as my STD assault. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1114	Posted - 2014.09.09 20:19:00 - [213] - Quote BL00DFART wrote: Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Wait, you mean us medium frames cant counter everything else other players can throw at us? We need blues with diverse suits/roles to do that? Well, I for one demand a respec right meow! Some people enjoy chess, others checkers. I'm guessing your the latter I wouldn't mind that except you want unlimited queens (dropships) while forcing swarms to remain pawns. Because, that's why.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1719	Posted - 2014.09.09 21:53:00 - [214] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Repe Susi wrote: BL00DFART wrote: Swarms? Oh you mean the only weapon in the game that takes zero skill to land hits with? The one that all the scrubs skill into because they cant learn the art of the forge gun? Press R1, get a cookie, rinse, repeat? I hate ADSs as much as the next guy, but swarms are the answer here? loldust Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. Wait, you mean us medium frames cant counter everything else other players can throw at us? We need blues with diverse suits/roles to do that? Well, I for one demand a respec right meow! Some people enjoy chess, others checkers. I'm guessing your the latter I wouldn't mind that except you want unlimited queens (dropships) while forcing swarms to remain pawns. swarms are more of rooks, and dropships are bishops. Shoot Scout with yes.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1119	Posted - 2014.09.10 06:41:00 - [215] - Quote Maybe, but I have often seen a single ADS, or tank, completely change the tide of battle. In fact, it is a regular occurrence with or without AV on the field. I have not yet seen a swarm launcher change the tide of balance except by preventing the ADS or tank from ruling the field. In other words, vehicles can dominate a map and kill AV users, AV users can only kill vehicles. This is not equal but different power, this is one (vehicles) having much greater power but able to be killed by another lesser power. I think of the game more like Stratego, with vehicles being the Marshall and swarms being the Spy. Because, that's why.
Andris Kronis Legio DXIV 78	Posted - 2014.09.10 07:11:00 - [216] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD I don't ADS often and usually only for transport (reference for following request) Please make the ADS even cheaper than you are suggesting, 1/3 of the current Charlie price. At least while you run in the new changes in Hotfix Delta. Reasoning: you will get lots of people flying ADS who otherwise wouldn't which will give you more stats ... heck I'll even give it a go for a few million ISK worth. and it will offset the losses expected by dedicated ADS pilots (not me) Then if the price is a little too low you can raise it up in Hotfix Echo. = Happier ADS pilots = Happier swarm users ;) "Corporation slogan coming to a sig near you"
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1721	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:45:00 - [217] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I don't even Swarm. I kill ADS with the forge gun. Right tool for the right job. I use swarms when I want to celebrate Impotence Day with fireworks. And I never said I wanted them to be EASY mode. I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the ADS price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones. Then you should be okay with increasing fitting cost for AV so high, that fitting a sidearm is impossible. An AV suit should be unable to fight back against my infantry suit. People don't seem to understand that swarms can kill an ADS. But you want the pilot to sit there and let you do it. That's ridiculous. If I had flares, or some sort of countermeasure, or hell, even higher pg/CPU so I could fit more tank, I'd give you a good point on your argument. But if you want swarms to be a garaunteed kill on all vehicles, then you should be unable to fit a sidearm or tank your suit, so infantry has a garaunteed kill on your AV suit. As awful as that would be, that is balanced on a rock a paper a scissors mode of game balance. AV ALWAYS wis against vehicles, and infantry ALWAYS wins against AV. Shoot Scout with yes.
Atiim 12044	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:47:00 - [218] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: swarms are more of rooks, and dropships are bishops. Dropships can move anywhere on the map in a matter of seconds, and can kill every unit in the game. They're Queens. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Derrith Erador 2595	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:51:00 - [219] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: swarms are more of rooks, and dropships are bishops. Dropships can move anywhere on the map in a matter of seconds, and can kill every unit in the game. They're Queens. Guess I should start wearing dresses then. Wait... I already do. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Derrith Erador 2595	Posted - 2014.09.11 02:57:00 - [220] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Rattati, these numbers are ridiculous, I'm telling you as a fairly experienced pilot. I'm not a master pilot by any meaning of the word, but if these numbers are pushed through, you'll probably kill the piloting role. If you could read this, and give me your thoughts. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.

medomai grey WarRavens Capital Punishment. 976	Posted - 2014.09.11 03:01:00 - [221] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb. ADS are in fact squishier that normal dropships which have more fitting slots and base EHP. What percentile of Dust514's infantry arsenal belongs to the category of machine guns?
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1122	Posted - 2014.09.11 03:13:00 - [222] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I don't even Swarm. I kill ADS with the forge gun. Right tool for the right job. I use swarms when I want to celebrate Impotence Day with fireworks. And I never said I wanted them to be EASY mode. I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the ADS price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones. Then you should be okay with increasing fitting cost for AV so high, that fitting a sidearm is impossible. An AV suit should be unable to fight back against my infantry suit. People don't seem to understand that swarms can kill an ADS. But you want the pilot to sit there and let you do it. That's ridiculous. If I had flares, or some sort of countermeasure, or hell, even higher pg/CPU so I could fit more tank, I'd give you a good point on your argument. But if you want swarms to be a garaunteed kill on all vehicles, then you should be unable to fit a sidearm or tank your suit, so infantry has a garaunteed kill on your AV suit. As awful as that would be, that is balanced on a rock a paper a scissors mode of game balance. AV ALWAYS wis against vehicles, and infantry ALWAYS wins against AV. No one has asked to always be able to kill an ADS, what we have asked is that we be able to kill an ADS, right now we can't win by doing everything right, they have to do something wrong, the outcome is always in their hands. The proposed changes seem good to me. When I fight a tank now I feel the better player, or team, will win the fight, not just the fit. When I fight a Python, I know the fit can beat me (although there are very good pilots we should both know they beat me and not their fit) and when I fight a standard dropship I know my fit beat them, eben if they are better thab me . The proposed changes seem to address the issues fairly. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1122	Posted - 2014.09.11 03:18:00 - [223] - Quote I like Derrith's ideas as well. Piloting needs to be viable and fun. I would drop the price more. Because, that's why.
Operative 1171 Aajli Bragian Order Amarr Empire 2008	Posted - 2014.09.11 05:07:00 - [224] - Quote Sounds good according to the idea of how the DS would operate. One thing though, increase the scan ability of the ADS to be able to quickly acquire near targets. Seems plausible for a fast deploy/attack vehicle. Gives them a chance to shoot the swarm launcher vs. being easily shot down. Sounds like the ADS will be more of an offensive heavy vehicle vs. defensive so they should at least be able to quickly acquire infantry targets up close. Also, if you are going to make the regular DS survive better defensively so it can hover and hang around an objective better then get rid of the ability to ram the shields off a Cal DS. I say this as someone who supports Gal DS ramming. Sure, they can still knock another DS around. Would be fun GÇô DS wrestling. Brick tanking a scout suit since April 2013!
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 137	Posted - 2014.09.11 05:26:00 - [225] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Im fine with this now can you do something about the overpowered installations?
taxi bastard Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 261	Posted - 2014.09.11 10:54:00 - [226] - Quote medomai grey wrote: Sounds interesting. Will swarm volleys stop chasing if the dropship is outside their turn radius or do they continue chasing with wider arcs? Edit: Part of the problem with swarm missile tracking is that the missile will follow the dropship's path instead of flying directly at the dropship; making cover pointless as the missiles will follow the dropship's path around cover. its a problem both ways as the missiles do not take the shortest possible route and often run out of gas
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4078	Posted - 2014.09.11 12:03:00 - [227] - Quote When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6926	Posted - 2014.09.11 15:43:00 - [228] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 46	Posted - 2014.09.11 16:02:00 - [229] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? I'm guessing he's talking about the fact that a commando swarmer will easily be able to fire the 3 to 4 swarms needed to kill us before we are out of range, especially given you haven't mentioned any fix with the fact that 90% of swarms are invisible to us and make no sound when fired, and that swarms currently go straight through buildings and rocks (and you are expecting us to hide behind these to be safe from swarms. It would help the fact that we need to reach max ceiling if you considered implementing my idea of after burner increasing overall maneuverability as well speed (go up faster, go down faster and turn faster) and fix the invisible swarms and swarms going through buildings etc. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 4842	Posted - 2014.09.11 16:33:00 - [230] - Quote a brackers wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? I'm guessing he's talking about the fact that a commando swarmer will .... Didn't he say "cloaked scout" ... ? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

taxi bastard Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 262	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:27:00 - [231] - Quote being that the ADS is such a force multiplier and is having a big price reduction i hope that the fix makes them easier to kill. solo i don't think i have killed a ADS piliot who did not make a glaring mistake. when i get killed by a sniper 400 meters away the result is out of my hands, i see no reason why it should not be the same with the ADS
Atiim 12053	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:31:00 - [232] - Quote a brackers wrote: I'm guessing he's talking about the fact that a commando swarmer will easily be able to fire the 3 to 4 swarms needed to kill us before we are out of range, especially given you haven't mentioned any fix with the fact that 90% of swarms are invisible to us and make no sound when fired, and that swarms currently go straight through buildings and rocks (and you are expecting us to hide behind these to be safe from swarms. Except the Commando won't. The time would take to fire 3-4 rounds is 6s with max skills. In that time, an Assault Dropship can evade you're lock range in 1.5s (Python w/Afterburner) and 2.3s (Incubus w/Afterburner). You'd only be able to get lock onto the Python once, and the Incubus twice before he escapes your lock range, meaning you'd only be hit by 1-2 volleys (which is tank-able by any DS). It should also be noted, that these values are skewed in favor of the ADS Pilot, as these current numbers assume that the Pilot is 0m away from the Swarmer, and that the travel time is instantaneous (it'll be faster, but not instantaneous in Delta). Assuming you're about 35-65m (like most ADS vs SL engagements), you'll have even more time to evade. a brackers wrote: It would help the fact that we need to reach max ceiling if you considered implementing my idea of after burner increasing overall maneuverability as well speed (go up faster, go down faster and turn faster) and fix the invisible swarms and swarms going through buildings etc. I can obviously see why Swarm Launcher rendering needs to be addressed, but why do Afterburners need an increase to overall maneuverability? Not only can they already turn corners with ease, but that could easily skew ADS vs FG balance in favor of the ADS, more-so than it already is. Does anyone have proof of Swarm Launchers going through buildings? If such a glitch exists, then of course it would need to be fixed, but I honestly could not find any through field testing. DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Evan Gotabor Prima Gallicus 74	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:35:00 - [233] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Numbers aren't the answer to everything. Not this time. I will repeat what I have already said. Changing the prices of ADS is stupid if you don't put the tanks in league with those of ADS. Currently proto ADS cost the same as proto tanks. If you change the price of ADS without changing the prices of tanks, they would become more obsolete than they already are (go see your numbers, there are less and less tanks in PC, they are more and more replaced by AV or dropship). The reason is that a dropship is as costly AND give a tactical advantage in anti-infantry or in AV. The only good points I see in that is more dogfights for my rail incubus and more allies decoy to take AV in my stead (pubs/FW/PC). That was for the ISK part. Now, what you are trying to set up with swarm/ads numbers is very interesting and very dangerous at the same time. What you SHOULD do (but you don't do it) is to take as a basis the ADS versus Swarm WITHOUT the afterburner. You should balance this mechanic first. To me, the afterburner shouldn't be more vital for a dropship than the cloak for a scout. However, it is for the moment and will become even more after your release... You should change the afterburner mechanics, make it like the shield booster (a single impulse with a long reload). Something that can save your life with a great boost on your propulsion (the dropship can go from stable to half speed in a single second). However, this module wouldn't be as OP as it is for the moment (great boost on a long time). This would allow more experienced pilots to fit others modules while giving a chance to the new and courageous pilots to learn without beaing automatically destroyed. If you do this, then the swarm should have a speed EQUAL to the maximal ADS speed. If a dropship go from stable to max speed, it would be badly damaged, probably destroyed from the time it go from 0km/h to full. However a pilot who is still in movement (a pilot that can't do an effective suppressing fire on the ground) would take hits but can manage to survive. Plus, you didn't even evocate the problem of speed of Incubus. With their useless hardeners, they must fit plates. And when you fit plates (even with the LVL 5 in the skill that reduce weight), you are still too slow and you eventually take more hits than a python. And I don't see anywhere any change about the weight disparity beetween 60mm and 120mm plates. If you keep your stats and ideas, we will end-up like The dark cloud said in flying coffins. But in the end, we will loose much more money than we currently loose even with the (stupid) idea of cost reduction. Prima Gallicus diplomat. Contact Hubert De LaBatte or me if you have business to do with us.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 768	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:41:00 - [234] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? It doesn't. In short, it will take 4 volleys from the most powerful Swarm (Wiyrkomi, MinCom 5, Prof 5 and 2x PRO Damage Mods) in the game to kill the toughest ADS. Python Fit: STD Afterburner; ADV Heavy Extender; STD Heavy Extender; PRO PG Extension; ADV AT-1 Missile. 3244 shields/960 armour. CBR-7 (No Proficiency): Kills on the 5th volley (10.45 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, Rapid Reload 5): Kills on the 5th volley (9.275 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, RR 5, MinCom 5, 2x PRO Damage Mod): Kills on the 4th volley (8.185 seconds plus travel time) I did have the maths all here, but I lost the post and can't be bothered again, but I can provide the numbers if necessary (though I'm sure people like Atiim have already crunched them sufficiently.) Honestly, I don't know how ok I am with this, looking at it from both sides: on the one hand, the ADS does have ample opportunity to disengage; on the other hand, reducing the TTK to being 4 volleys from most/3 from the top makes the ADS very iffy on viability. Although it is very much worth noting that the above Python example is [I]the toughest possible fit[/]. I think right now, the lack of +10/-10 or other shield-bonused AV weapons is an enormous hole in the balancing mechanism. If we buff the Swarms further, Incubi will be driven out of usefulness, since they will take even more of a hit than Pythons yet at the same time Pythons are primarily resistant to Swarms because of the damage profile. Changes to Swarm kill efficacy versus Pythons is not the way to balance ADSs: the solution is in additional AV weaponry balancing the various profiles against one another. In other words, I think the buffs to Swarms right now (missile speed) is pretty reasonable and even the Afterburner change will be reasonable given time to adjust. I think any increases to Swarm damage would have a massive impact that would negatively impact V/AV balance overall and that only the introduction of anti-shield AV weaponry can solve any imbalances present in the system. Alt of Halla Murr.
Derrith Erador 2598	Posted - 2014.09.11 18:48:00 - [235] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? It's not the swarms I see as the issue, I've said before, a lot... and I will say it again, your current numbers for recharge are too high, and giving us more time on the AB active is negligible. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 898	Posted - 2014.09.11 19:32:00 - [236] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? It's not the swarms I see as the issue, I've said before, a lot... and I will say it again, your current numbers for recharge are too high, and giving us more time on the AB active is negligible. I think that maybe when we go in for the attack we can have AB already fired. So as in like, I go to kill a infantry, and a swarmer suddenly fires, then I can just press L1 and dash for it as fast as possible. But truly, this is a stupid idea. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Kaeru Nayiri Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 27	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:14:00 - [237] - Quote I do not fly my Python with an afterburner, I really hope I will not be forced to do so from now on to survive ! Please do not set this up in a way that forces dropships to fit an afterburner. I know little about flying the Incubus, but I assume it's an even more dire issue there. I will state again, that I disagree with lowering the price of the assault dropship. Bringing one into a fight is a decision made based on the fight. We all need to be ground infantry first, pilots second. Not every single fight needs a dropship, the argument of going 4 matches without losing a ship to break even is invalid, you should be able to call in a dropship to perform a task and retreat or recall when said task is done. I agree with the current price of assault dropships, I am happy to pay them.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2725	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:29:00 - [238] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Python Fit: STD Afterburner; ADV Heavy Extender; STD Heavy Extender; PRO PG Extension; ADV AT-1 Missile. 3244 shields/960 armour. CBR-7 (No Proficiency): Kills on the 5th volley (10.45 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, Rapid Reload 5): Kills on the 5th volley (9.275 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, RR 5, MinCom 5, 2x PRO Damage Mod): Kills on the 4th volley (8.185 seconds plus travel time) Currrent AV capacity, pre-Delta, practical application: Because Dropships have unlisted, innate resists to AV weapons. DAU/2 Assault Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 damage mods Kills on the third shot. 6.75 Seconds Ishukone Assault Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 Damage Mods Kills on the third shot. 6.75 Seconds Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 Damage Mods Kills on the second shot. 9 seconds there's about a 50/50 chance the pilot will be out of range or juking hard enough to evade before the third shot lands. Bitching about 8 seconds for swarms to kill seems childish when that doesn't match up to a forge gun's hammer capacity. Run your numbers against a tanked incubus now. Oddly enough... Mine don't change. This is brought to you by: The guy who kills vehicles for a living.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 769	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:31:00 - [239] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I will state again, that I disagree with lowering the price of the assault dropship. Bringing one into a fight is a decision made based on the fight. We all need to be ground infantry first, pilots second. Not every single fight needs a dropship, the argument of going 4 matches without losing a ship to break even is invalid, you should be able to call in a dropship to perform a task and retreat or recall when said task is done. I agree with the current price of assault dropships, I am happy to pay them. Even using your example of Call In - Fight - Recall: what happens when two or more battles in a row require/would be enormously improved by the presence of an ADS? Losing a single one means going ISK negative for several battles, even running on the ground, and if you're looking at calling in more to support your team even with the intention of recalling, what happens when you lose multiple? You're trying to help your team, but by doing so you personally are potentially losing millions of ISK. All of the risk is on you, with next to no reward. Alt of Halla Murr.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2725	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:38:00 - [240] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I will state again, that I disagree with lowering the price of the assault dropship. Bringing one into a fight is a decision made based on the fight. We all need to be ground infantry first, pilots second. Not every single fight needs a dropship, the argument of going 4 matches without losing a ship to break even is invalid, you should be able to call in a dropship to perform a task and retreat or recall when said task is done. I agree with the current price of assault dropships, I am happy to pay them. Even using your example of Call In - Fight - Recall: what happens when two or more battles in a row require/would be enormously improved by the presence of an ADS? Losing a single one means going ISK negative for several battles, even running on the ground, and if you're looking at calling in more to support your team even with the intention of recalling, what happens when you lose multiple? You're trying to help your team, but by doing so you personally are potentially losing millions of ISK. All of the risk is on you, with next to no reward. Also, if you do NOT call in a ADS, how are you helping me achieve my goal of pasting the expensive things and causing them to crash on blue and red dots indiscriminately? I mean, think of myself, and people like me. If ADS become cheaper, then I will have MORE JUICY TARGETS TO SHOOT AT! Come to think of it, let's drop the price on HAVs again.

Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1723	Posted - 2014.09.11 21:11:00 - [241] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Because swarms do not render reliably for us. A lot of the time we don't even know the threat is there until we are hit. Swarms have the first hit advantage. If we could see them, or have some way to know we are being locked, or flares and other countermeasures, things would be different. Shoot Scout with yes.
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 1277	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:35:00 - [242] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Because swarms do not render reliably for us. A lot of the time we don't even know the threat is there until we are hit. Swarms have the first hit advantage. If we could see them, or have some way to know we are being locked, or flares and other countermeasures, things would be different. Confirming that the invisible swarms bug is back, however not in the scale it used to be. Cause may be different. People would enjoy Dust a lot more if they accepted the fact that EVERYTHING is subject to change
Atiim 12063	Posted - 2014.09.11 22:52:00 - [243] - Quote And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). DUST 514's 1st Matari Commando -HAND
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 141	Posted - 2014.09.11 23:10:00 - [244] - Quote Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Yes it exists ive been hit head on and lost about 2000 hp on my incubus once. They usually do random damage.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 188	Posted - 2014.09.11 23:38:00 - [245] - Quote quote=CCP Rattati] The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers?[/quote] My take. I can only use my personal incubs fit for comparision. Other fits vary bu t this is how the changes will directly impact me, and pretty much anyone who doesnt have a fully kitted out proto ship. With the maxed out tank of either an incubus or a python at Proto level, it is still inferior to a the HP of a sica or asoma with MILITIA armor or shield modiules. My incubes with all advanced modules has 950 shield 3812 armor. heavy armor plate, light armor repair and power grid module and a basic afterburner. 4362 total. A volley from a wyrokami swarm launcher will do 1248 damage, or within 1.4 seconds if a second hits it does 2456 damage. When you factor in ten percent to armor damage bonus for the second volley (1248 +124=1372 ) it will be about 2,620 damage. A third volley makes damage dealt 3992. add 15% for profficiency 5 thats 4391 damage, and my incubus is now dead. That is without damage mods. A Soma by comparison without any modules whatsoever has 1200 shiels and 4000 armor. Tanking the damage to stay and slug it out in an area that has AV present simply isnt an option. Okay what about out repping the damage? There are no armor reps that can withstand that damage in 1.4 seconds. Hardener? This requires sacrificing a significant amount of HP. replacing the heavy plate for a light plate (not enough PG) means my HP will roughly be around 3862. 40% resistance to damage to armor, which equates to 30% comapred to the swarm launchers 10% bonus. 1248 - 30% = 874. Two volleys will do 2122 damage and reduce my HP in two volleys to 1740. More than half my HP will be gone by the time i activate it. I can tank another two volleys from swarms which sounds great. Untill you factor in damage mods and profciency which reduces the hardners effectiveness. enh dmg mod + complex dmg mod + Prof 5 or 5% +7% + 15% = 27% meaning my hardner will only have a 3% resistance to a specced out swarm launcher in a standard suit. 1248 - 37.44 =1210 damage. 2 volleys in this case do 2458 damage and my HP will be down to 1404. 3 volleys will do 3668 damage leaving me at 194 HP, anything else that hits me will kill my incubs with a hardner dead. So tanking damage is not an option and hardeners are barely viable against a SINGLE player. Two players are garunteed a kill if they can land 4 out of thier six volleys fired at me. The only option left is to utilize the speed of the dropship and escape before the missiles can hit. But now you want the swarms to accellerate faster than a ship on full afterburn. so we cant run, we cant tank, and we cant harden. Turn radius doesnt matter if missile tracking stays the same. Unless we can make them miss like we try to do with forge guns swarmers especially those of rooftops will have the advantage of seeing us first, firing first, landing 1 shot for sure, a second as we start to run away, and the third hit (the one we used to escape from with our burners)will be the final killing blow. How do you use a bulding for cover when they're on top of the thing? Judge made an excellent vido with numbers and stats discussing how dropships utilize this speed to escape and how dropships do not escape getting hit even though they seem too. Also explains the swarm - dropship conflict very clearly. His numbers are from the DUST SDE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Feel free to correct my math, it's a bit rough. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 188	Posted - 2014.09.11 23:40:00 - [246] - Quote Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Heres an entire channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/JudgeRhadamanthus/videos Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1726	Posted - 2014.09.12 01:45:00 - [247] - Quote Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Here you go. Shoot Scout with yes.
bogeyman m Minmatar Republic 407	Posted - 2014.09.12 03:46:00 - [248] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Because swarms do not render reliably for us. A lot of the time we don't even know the threat is there until we are hit. Swarms have the first hit advantage. If we could see them, or have some way to know we are being locked, or flares and other countermeasures, things would be different. And derpships do not show up on TacNet... Fix one, fix both. Duct tape 2.0 ... Have WD-40; will travel.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 141	Posted - 2014.09.12 03:58:00 - [249] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: quote=CCP Rattati] The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? My take. I can only use my personal incubs fit for comparision. Other fits vary bu t this is how the changes will directly impact me, and pretty much anyone who doesnt have a fully kitted out proto ship. With the maxed out tank of either an incubus or a python at Proto level, it is still inferior to a the HP of a sica or asoma with MILITIA armor or shield modiules. My incubes with all advanced modules has 950 shield 3812 armor. heavy armor plate, light armor repair and power grid module and a basic afterburner. 4362 total. A volley from a wyrokami swarm launcher will do 1248 damage, or within 1.4 seconds if a second hits it does 2456 damage. When you factor in ten percent to armor damage bonus for the second volley (1248 +124=1372 ) it will be about 2,620 damage. A third volley makes damage dealt 3992. add 15% for profficiency 5 thats 4391 damage, and my incubus is now dead. That is without damage mods. A Soma by comparison without any modules whatsoever has 1200 shiels and 4000 armor. Tanking the damage to stay and slug it out in an area that has AV present simply isnt an option. Okay what about out repping the damage? There are no armor reps that can withstand that damage in 1.4 seconds. Hardener? This requires sacrificing a significant amount of HP. replacing the heavy plate for a light plate (not enough PG) means my HP will roughly be around 3862. 40% resistance to damage to armor, which equates to 30% comapred to the swarm launchers 10% bonus. 1248 - 30% = 874. Two volleys will do 2122 damage and reduce my HP in two volleys to 1740. More than half my HP will be gone by the time i activate it. I can tank another two volleys from swarms which sounds great. Untill you factor in damage mods and profciency which reduces the hardners effectiveness. enh dmg mod + complex dmg mod + Prof 5 or 5% +7% + 15% = 27% meaning my hardner will only have a 3% resistance to a specced out swarm launcher in a standard suit. 1248 - 37.44 =1210 damage. 2 volleys in this case do 2458 damage and my HP will be down to 1404. 3 volleys will do 3668 damage leaving me at 194 HP, anything else that hits me will kill my incubs with a hardner dead. So tanking damage is not an option and hardeners are barely viable against a SINGLE player. Two players are garunteed a kill if they can land 4 out of thier six volleys fired at me. The only option left is to utilize the speed of the dropship and escape before the missiles can hit. But now you want the swarms to accellerate faster than a ship on full afterburn. so we cant run, we cant tank, and we cant harden. Turn radius doesnt matter if missile tracking stays the same. Unless we can make them miss like we try to do with forge guns swarmers especially those of rooftops will have the advantage of seeing us first, firing first, landing 1 shot for sure, a second as we start to run away, and the third hit (the one we used to escape from with our burners)will be the final killing blow. How do you use a bulding for cover when they're on top of the thing? Judge made an excellent vido with numbers and stats discussing how dropships utilize this speed to escape and how dropships do not escape getting hit even though they seem too. Also explains the swarm - dropship conflict very clearly. His numbers are from the DUST SDE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ Feel free to correct my math, it's a bit rough. [/quote] Please copy and paste your comment,on a new thread, you hit about everything.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4081	Posted - 2014.09.12 04:53:00 - [250] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6964	Posted - 2014.09.12 05:00:00 - [251] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1097	Posted - 2014.09.12 05:35:00 - [252] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Here you go. Throughout that vid, I did not see a volley of invisible swarms in the air. The first time, on Line Harvest, his nose was swinging back toward them as they landed - and they exploded visibly. The second volley, already in the air, was also clearly visible. Every other instance of swarms shown in that video was either visible or from behind/below where it would not have been seen. I DID see where a forge gunner did damage but there was no flash of forge shot impact nor knock away effect on the dropship as it was hovering over that rail tank. But no, there were no invisible swarms flying and magically doing hitting. Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 770	Posted - 2014.09.12 05:36:00 - [253] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Guaranteed three hits? Not really. Two hits? Almost certainly. Have you watched any of the linked videos that Judge made? They highlight exactly why dropships use Afterburners the way they do: because AV is invisible about half the time, and even when visible it will still always get the first hour in because of terrible rendering and/or incredibly poor perception from the ADS point of view. What you're proposing with the Afterburner changes is this, in a nutshell: ADSs should be punished for not sticking around after getting hit twice before they can even locate their assailant. The current scenario: Swarm launches volley one. Swarm launches volley two, usually just as volley one arrives and knocks the ADS about. By the time the ADS has found the AV player - if at all - then the third volley has been released and the Swarmer will be mid-reload. At this point the ADS is in critical health and any attempt to fight at this point will result in one of two things: (1) the ADS gets lucky and kills the Swarmer, or is a very good shot, or hits the Afterburner to run (experienced pilots do so earlier, because there is little reason to hang around risking your neck when you can come back healthy and unsurprised); or (2) the ADS fails to find and kill the Swarmer and activates the Afterburner too late and dies. At this point, the Swarmer has gained between 75-150 WP from the three volleys. The ADS is forced to retreat or die; currently it takes about 15-20 seconds for an ADS to run, regenerate HP and then return from a decent angle ready to fight. The proposal takes the 15-20 seconds and ramps it up by two or three times: 40-60 seconds out of the fight because an invisible, unidentifiable dark splotch on the ground fired invisible (50% of the time) Swarms and we have no way of knowing anything is happening until the first volley impacts on our shields. Quite frankly, the only issue Swarms have with ADSs is that Swarmers want more besides the huge WP reward for driving has off repeatedly. Even when an ADS returns to the fight the Swarmer has the first strike advantage: the ADS is much more obvious, the Swarmer is still unidentifiable from map splotches or other red-dots and has plenty of time to relocate and utilise cover. What is the intention behind the increased cool down? Is it because Swarmers don't kill ADSs often enough? Then why are vehicle damage points rewarded? They were specifically introduced to reward players for driving vehicles away without killing them necessarily. Alt of Halla Murr.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1728	Posted - 2014.09.12 05:58:00 - [254] - Quote Right-wing Extremist wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Here you go. Throughout that vid, I did not see a volley of invisible swarms in the air. The first time, on Line Harvest, his nose was swinging back toward them as they landed - and they exploded visibly. The second volley, already in the air, was also clearly visible. Every other instance of swarms shown in that video was either visible or from behind/below where it would not have been seen. I DID see where a forge gunner did damage but there was no flash of forge shot impact nor knock away effect on the dropship as it was hovering over that rail tank. But no, there were no invisible swarms flying and magically doing hitting. You wouldn't see invisible swarms because they are invisible. The swarms are launched as he swoops by the building, connecting right after he pauses. The second swarm renders, but theswarmer himself does not. Shoot Scout with yes.
Andris Kronis Legio DXIV 80	Posted - 2014.09.12 05:59:00 - [255] - Quote On the subject of dropship pilots, swarms and seeing enemies. Is it possible? for dropships to highlight, to the pilot only, any enemy within 300m in a 15 degree (rough suggestion of angle) arc from the centre of their viewpoint, this would help with spotting enemy assailants. At the moment it is very difficult to see enemies unless closer than ~75m due to dropship viewpoint restrictions and blocking by the body of the dropship. When the dropship is locked on to by a swarm launcher, the dropship should get the same noise as the swarm locking on and a flashing indicator or message telling them of a swarm locking, swarm locked and swarms inbound. So even if the swarms are invisible, as happens, the dropship pilot would get a notification of lock on, and when they are fired upon by seeking missiles. This could fix a lot of problems with swarms out of nowhere and open up valid changes to swarm launcher behaviour improvements. "Corporation slogan coming to a sig near you"
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4081	Posted - 2014.09.12 07:42:00 - [256] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Ive though swarms where supposed to get a speed buff so that they are capable to catch AB dropships? Or did that concept got scrapped and i didnt noticed it? In your OP youve stated that swarms max speed will be faster then a ADS and the acceleration will aswell be buffed. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6968	Posted - 2014.09.12 13:16:00 - [257] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Ive though swarms where supposed to get a speed buff so that they are capable to catch AB dropships? Or did that concept got scrapped and i didnt noticed it? In your OP youve stated that swarms max speed will be faster then a ADS and the acceleration will aswell be buffed. speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 772	Posted - 2014.09.12 14:31:00 - [258] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable. Airborne DUST - The Circle Of Hate: http://youtu.be/967QvZ5PPT4 That's Judge's latest video about Swarm/ADS balance. Skip to 9 minutes and you will see Judge disprove your point. The Afterburner does not increase top speed. If it is meant to: great, bug to get fixed! If not: Swarms are unavoidable. As is, the Afterburner let's an ADS hit top speed before the Swarm missiles do, which means that, since they have the same top speed pre-Delta, Swarms cannot catch up. With Swarm top speed buff, an ADS without an Afterburner will be incapable of escaping Swarms, period; unless the changes to Swarm turn radius are significant enough to stop them just following you right around the buildings that we are supposed to be dodging around. Honestly, increasing Swarm speed is pretty reasonable, but the whole of that video needs studying Mr Rattati, because it contains so much information about how the ADS side of the engagement looks/feels that, no offence, but you really need to experience. If you have already studied it, please just look at the 9 minute -> 10 minute bit where Judge debunks the AB = more top speed notion. Alt of Halla Murr.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 191	Posted - 2014.09.12 14:52:00 - [259] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable. The problem is Afterburners do not increase the top speed of dropships. Afterburners only allow dropships to reach thier top speed quicker. Dropships do not move at 75 with the burner on, dropships only reach 50 much faster than a swarm launcher does. This was demonstrated by Judge as evidenced here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ With swarmer having a boosted acceleration to catch dropships in delta as well as moving 10/s faster than dropships moving at top speed then yes that trhid volley is indeed a garunteed hit. You also mentioned dropship hovering and that they will not be able to so as they do now. Which begs the what kind of role will all dropships play then? Every dropship role from mobile cru, scanner, using gunners, being anti infantry or anti vehcile, and tranport involve hovering for a decent amount of time over any given area, and the ability to get out fast when things go south. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 415	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:05:00 - [260] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. First, pilots can usually not see when swarms are shot from a launcher because of sh*tty rendering so 2 swarms are already on their way and if you cant run away from the third you are screwed before you even try to take off. Second, you are only talking about 1vs1 engagements but not taking in factor that every time an ADS is turning to be annoying 60% of the enemy team has AV out looking for you so generally you are taking on 2-5 people at once using AV. But imagine only 2 people with proto with that buff. They only need two volleys already and with speed buff there is NO chance of withstanding them. Third, if you are giving the AV such nasty buffs can you please reduce impact damage from other dropships and tapping walls? Walls are my greatest enemies atm, when I touch them they just dont want to let me go and hold me until It drains my health with some weird constant damage. Either impact damage or sticky effects please. I generally dont have a grumpy attitude towards CCP but when things are getting so close to being absolute nonsense I break. Infantry players are sometimes really pissed off towards vehicle specialists, I know that and since infantry are way larger percentage of players CCP wants to do every thing they can to please them but when you are giving buffs to AV update after update it gets tired and I cant stand it anymore. Vehicles are getting more and more ineffective and expensive for no reason. Tanks atm stand no chance vs AV. We are not all duna and such btw so please try not to set your aim on nerfing those machines. Hey dark you forgot that alot of people have now speced into the minmatar commando for the swarm damage (because they think swarms are so useless?pff!) so add 10% on that damage output... I propose giving use the pre announced hp buff 300-500 to shield on pythons and 200-300 to armour on incubus because it is kind of ridiculus to keep buffing AV (telling youself that buff to AB duration is actually balancing) and leave the pilots in the dirt.

poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 415	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:09:00 - [261] - Quote poison Diego wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. First, pilots can usually not see when swarms are shot from a launcher because of sh*tty rendering so 2 swarms are already on their way and if you cant run away from the third you are screwed before you even try to take off. Second, you are only talking about 1vs1 engagements but not taking in factor that every time an ADS is turning to be annoying 60% of the enemy team has AV out looking for you so generally you are taking on 2-5 people at once using AV. But imagine only 2 people with proto with that buff. They only need two volleys already and with speed buff there is NO chance of withstanding them. Third, if you are giving the AV such nasty buffs can you please reduce impact damage from other dropships and tapping walls? Walls are my greatest enemies atm, when I touch them they just dont want to let me go and hold me until It drains my health with some weird constant damage. Either impact damage or sticky effects please. I generally dont have a grumpy attitude towards CCP but when things are getting so close to being absolute nonsense I break. Infantry players are sometimes really pissed off towards vehicle specialists, I know that and since infantry are way larger percentage of players CCP wants to do every thing they can to please them but when you are giving buffs to AV update after update it gets tired and I cant stand it anymore. Vehicles are getting more and more ineffective and there for expensive for no reason. Tanks atm stand no chance vs AV. We are not all duna and such btw so please try not to set your aim on nerfing those nolife-ing machines. Hey dark you forgot that alot of people have now speced into the minmatar commando for the swarm damage (because they think swarms are so useless?pff!) so add 10% on that damage output... I propose giving use the pre announced hp buff 300-500 to shield on pythons and 200-300 to armour on incubus because it is kind of ridiculus to keep buffing AV (telling youself that buff to AB duration is actually balancing) and leave the pilots in the dirt.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2746	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:19:00 - [262] - Quote I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4087	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:34:00 - [263] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable. I would know it if AB would increase top speed. Sadly they dont cause many times when i was flying my incubus the swarm volley where just merely like 5 meters away from my dropship and i only outran them because after a certain distance they simply explode. The 50% additional boost is for acceleration only. And that is the reason why ive sayd that with those swarm changes as soon 3 volleys from a proto swarmer are in the air your dropship is allready doomed to death. Cause they will fly faster and aswell get to their top speed of 60m/s sooner. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 417	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:49:00 - [264] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. you actually believe there is skill in locking on to targets and releasing? Ok I dont think it is to fair either that I can outrun swarms but when they are violating me with that insane damage I can not help but think that ADS should get somewhat buff vs the swarm buff. you speak of like 5 swarmers vs ADSs is uncommon. well ITS NOT!
poison Diego Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 417	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:53:00 - [265] - Quote Try to fly an ADS in a domination and kill someone. After the first kill I guarantee that you will be instaganked either by a ramming gorgon or 3-12 AVers depending on if you are loosing or winning, more AVers if they are loosing (because they tend to blame you for it)
Derrith Erador 2607	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:00:00 - [266] - Quote poison Diego wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. you actually believe there is skill in locking on to targets and releasing? Ok I dont think it is to fair either that I can outrun swarms but when they are violating me with that insane damage I can not help but think that ADS should get somewhat buff vs the swarm buff. you speak of like 5 swarmers vs ADSs is uncommon. well ITS NOT! He has a point, breaking. Swarms require little to no skill to use, perhaps with their homing nerf, that might change, but that is to be seen. It is true that ADS can outrun swarms, that we do not deny, but if you've been in a pub with a single decent pilot, the usual amount of swarms that come from the noobs is just ridiculous. I've proposed that the acceleration should be restricted to ADV and proto tier swarms, so that will keep the red shirts from being able to spam a weapon that locks on for you, but will also keep a risk-reward system going (as I see it). The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 143	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:07:00 - [267] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: poison Diego wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. you actually believe there is skill in locking on to targets and releasing? Ok I dont think it is to fair either that I can outrun swarms but when they are violating me with that insane damage I can not help but think that ADS should get somewhat buff vs the swarm buff. you speak of like 5 swarmers vs ADSs is uncommon. well ITS NOT! He has a point, breaking. Swarms require little to no skill to use, perhaps with their homing nerf, that might change, but that is to be seen. It is true that ADS can outrun swarms, that we do not deny, but if you've been in a pub with a single decent pilot, the usual amount of swarms that come from the noobs is just ridiculous. I've proposed that the acceleration should be restricted to ADV and proto tier swarms, so that will keep the red shirts from being able to spam a weapon that locks on for you, but will also keep a risk-reward system going (as I see it). Yes as soon as you hit the field everythings after you, swarms, forges, turrets, rammers, etc.Thats why we need a quick recharge on afterburners for those constant threats.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 773	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:07:00 - [268] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Alt of Halla Murr.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 143	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:16:00 - [269] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Theres maneuvers to dodge forges but dodging swarms is tricky and it usually doesnt work if youre caught by suprise. You go full speed then abruptly turn your nose towards the swarm rockets while flying backwards and they usually explode beforehand wo touching you. With the new swarm speed buff i doubt itll be possible, its already hard enough as is to pull it off.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 773	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:20:00 - [270] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Theres maneuvers to dodge forges but dodging swarms is tricky and it usually doesnt work if youre caught by suprise. You go full speed then abruptly turn your nose towards the swarm rockets while flying backwards and they usually explode beforehand wo touching you. With the new swarm speed buff i doubt itll be possible, its already hard enough as is to pull it off. Except in Delta, the Swarms will catch you. That's kinda my point. Unless the tracking nerf is sufficient to make evading a real possibility, we're just going to get hosed whenever a Swarmer pos up. Alt of Halla Murr.

ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 144	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:34:00 - [271] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Theres maneuvers to dodge forges but dodging swarms is tricky and it usually doesnt work if youre caught by suprise. You go full speed then abruptly turn your nose towards the swarm rockets while flying backwards and they usually explode beforehand wo touching you. With the new swarm speed buff i doubt itll be possible, its already hard enough as is to pull it off. Except in Delta, the Swarms will catch you. That's kinda my point. Unless the tracking nerf is sufficient to make evading a real possibility, we're just going to get hosed whenever a Swarmer pos up. Yeah i know, but i dont think anyone at ccp actually uses the assault dropships. They just go by numbers not actual gameplay, so expect excessive nerfs. CCP i say you give everyone 5 free assault dropships no skills required and let them see how it feels to be a tin can.
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 730	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:38:00 - [272] - Quote I like how in the video cites as evidence against these changes Judge then goes on to recommend a boost to Swarm acceleration and speed while reducing turn radius (at ~23:40). Personally I endorse the changes both from an NDS and (my slightly limited) ADS perspective. I want Swarms to be able to slowly creep up on my python as I attempt to speed away while hitting the shield booster to gain more shields while I'm eeking out any additional speed I can get.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 144	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:43:00 - [273] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: I like how in the video cites as evidence against these changes Judge then goes on to recommend a boost to Swarm acceleration and speed while reducing turn radius (at ~23:40). Personally I endorse the changes both from an NDS and (my slightly limited) ADS perspective. I want Swarms to be able to slowly creep up on my python as I attempt to speed away while hitting the shield booster to gain more shields while I'm eeking out any additional speed I can get. Yea but its another double nerf, swarms get buffed while afterburners get nerfed, it doesnt make sense. You cant balance like that. Ccp should either do the swarm buff or ab nerf and see how it plays out then change whatever after.
Stupid Blueberry Nova Corps Marines Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 509	Posted - 2014.09.12 16:50:00 - [274] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? On this point, are you considering adding ADS to the loyalty store? That might change the dynamic here a little. THIS Chillin, waitin on Legion. Ishukone loyalist, Caldari Scout enthusiast!
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 731	Posted - 2014.09.12 18:36:00 - [275] - Quote I recently realized that once the changes to ABs hit all DSs will have to upgrade their AB to prototype level in order to become competitive. In that light I will of course retract my earlier statements about buffing the CPU/PG of dropships. I now officially support that both ADS and NDS receive a buff by enough CPU/PG to fit enhanced ABs at the least.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1728	Posted - 2014.09.12 19:20:00 - [276] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Some math. Currently, swarms go 50m/s. ADS top speed (both Python and Incubus) is 200km/h according to the game stats info when I hit triangle in the market. So let's change that number into m/s so we can effectively compare. Easiest part is changing kilometers to meters. 200 x 1000 meters to the kilometer nets us 200,000 meters per hour. Now, there are 3600 seconds in an hour (60 minutes in an hour times 60 seconds in a minute) so by dividing 200,000 by 3600 we get 55.556 m/s (rounded to the nearest thousandths place) top speed for dropships. Afterburners do not increase top speed; they simply increase acceleration greatly, meaning we can hit this top speed much easier. Video of how afterburner does not increase top speed. Also to Atiim, here is undeniable proof of the invisible swarms. Changing swarms to 60m/s will mean dropships can never outrun them; there top speed, afterburner or not, is 55.556 m/s. We need that speed to escape the killing blow. We can point out how the most tanked Python or Incubus can take this many hits, but should those be the only viable fits? And notice how none of them have gunners, which means less teamwork and more people being solo, which is part of the complaints as well. Also notice how they cannot even make there single turret proto, meaning that they are gimped in PC where everyone is running proto modules, and especially so against anything that isn't a scout. Also note how they assume one swarmer. One swarmer against the maximum possible tanked ADS can almost down it solo as is. Now, anything not the fits listed will go down to that 3rd swarm. The nerf to afterburner cooldown is justified. I can return to the fight far more quickly than I should be able to. But as the video shows, swarms pop in and out of rendering, As to the swarm users themselves. Hiding behind structures is mentioned as a means to avoid the new swarms, but not all maps have structures we can reach in time before that third volley hits. The afterburner is our only means of surviving. Invisible swarms, invisible swarmers and forgers, lack of things to hide behind, our only way to save our dropships is to outrange the AV and come back at a better angle or have infantry push them off for us. We need that speed. I ask you to change the afterburner cooldown, as that is completely justified. But I also ask you wait on the swarm speed changes until you see how the afterburner nerf pans out. Small, incremental changes like you said. Shoot Scout with yes.
Cyrus Grevare WarRavens Capital Punishment. 329	Posted - 2014.09.12 20:05:00 - [277] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. I had not noticed Don't mind me, it's now fixed, carry on the debate www.protofits.com - a Dust 514 fitting tool
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1124	Posted - 2014.09.12 20:55:00 - [278] - Quote The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable. I would know it if AB would increase top speed. Sadly they dont cause many times when i was flying my incubus the swarm volley where just merely like 5 meters away from my dropship and i only outran them because after a certain distance they simply explode. The 50% additional boost is for acceleration only. And that is the reason why ive sayd that with those swarm changes as soon 3 volleys from a proto swarmer are in the air your dropship is allready doomed to death. Cause they will fly faster and aswell get to their top speed of 60m/s sooner. This is true if you have no AB, no hardener or booster and or at near 0 meters or flying towards the swarmer. That does not seem unfair to me. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1124	Posted - 2014.09.12 21:09:00 - [279] - Quote poison Diego wrote: Try to fly an ADS in a domination and kill someone. After the first kill I guarantee that you will be instaganked either by a ramming gorgon or 3-12 AVers depending on if you are loosing or winning, more AVers if they are loosing (because they tend to blame you for it) This is true, which is how and why vehicles are force multipliers. If one team dedicates 4 players to deal with one then you have managed to skew the odds in your favor, if they don't then you can kill with the advantages the vehicle gives you. How many times have you seen a team getting beat, pull out an ADS or a tank and turn it completely around? A lot is the answer. How many times have you seen a team pull out a swarmer and turn it around? Only when vehicles are controlling the field. A swarmer is not a force multiplier, its sole function is to prevent the vehicles from dominating. I have to agree though that it is a very delicate balance and smaller changes are better than large ones, the AB cooldown increase shouldn't be so large. Judge had the graphs I wanted to see, I'm pretty sure these have been looked at and made with the proposed numbers as well. Because, that's why.
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1730	Posted - 2014.09.13 01:58:00 - [280] - Quote One big point I want addressed is the lack of awareness of AV players. A huge part of the issue is AV always getting the drop on us, whether because swarms did not render, or because the players did not render, or because we couldn't tell whether they were players or part of the terrain. If we had something indicating we were being locked, like a beep and a visual warning, I'd feel a lot better about the proposed changes. Shoot Scout with yes.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6999	Posted - 2014.09.13 09:47:00 - [281] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Some math. Currently, swarms go 50m/s. ADS top speed (both Python and Incubus) is 200km/h according to the game stats info when I hit triangle in the market. So let's change that number into m/s so we can effectively compare. Easiest part is changing kilometers to meters. 200 x 1000 meters to the kilometer nets us 200,000 meters per hour. Now, there are 3600 seconds in an hour (60 minutes in an hour times 60 seconds in a minute) so by dividing 200,000 by 3600 we get 55.556 m/s (rounded to the nearest thousandths place) top speed for dropships. Afterburners do not increase top speed; they simply increase acceleration greatly, meaning we can hit this top speed much easier. Video of how afterburner does not increase top speed. Also to Atiim, here is undeniable proof of the invisible swarms. Changing swarms to 60m/s will mean dropships can never outrun them; there top speed, afterburner or not, is 55.556 m/s. We need that speed to escape the killing blow. We can point out how the most tanked Python or Incubus can take this many hits, but should those be the only viable fits? And notice how none of them have gunners, which means less teamwork and more people being solo, which is part of the complaints as well. Also notice how they cannot even make there single turret proto, meaning that they are gimped in PC where everyone is running proto modules, and especially so against anything that isn't a scout. Also note how they assume one swarmer. One swarmer against the maximum possible tanked ADS can almost down it solo as is. Now, anything not the fits listed will go down to that 3rd swarm. The nerf to afterburner cooldown is justified. I can return to the fight far more quickly than I should be able to. But as the video shows, swarms pop in and out of rendering, as do the swarm users themselves. Hiding behind structures is mentioned as a means to avoid the new swarms, but not all maps have structures we can reach in time before that third volley hits. The afterburner is our only means of surviving. Invisible swarms, invisible swarmers and forgers, lack of things to hide behind, our only way to save our dropships is to outrange the AV and come back at a better angle or have infantry push them off for us. We need that speed. I ask you to change the afterburner cooldown, as that is completely justified. But I also ask you wait on the swarm speed changes until you see how the afterburner nerf pans out. Small, incremental changes like you said. The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's. Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories. I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change. I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6999	Posted - 2014.09.13 09:48:00 - [282] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Theres maneuvers to dodge forges but dodging swarms is tricky and it usually doesnt work if youre caught by suprise. You go full speed then abruptly turn your nose towards the swarm rockets while flying backwards and they usually explode beforehand wo touching you. With the new swarm speed buff i doubt itll be possible, its already hard enough as is to pull it off. Except in Delta, the Swarms will catch you. That's kinda my point. Unless the tracking nerf is sufficient to make evading a real possibility, we're just going to get hosed whenever a Swarmer pos up. Not before you get out of swarm max range. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6999	Posted - 2014.09.13 09:49:00 - [283] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 774	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:27:00 - [284] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Except in Delta, the Swarms will catch you. That's kinda my point. Unless the tracking nerf is sufficient to make evading a real possibility, we're just going to get hosed whenever a Swarmer pos up. Not before you get out of swarm max range. I am incredibly shaky on this kind of maths, so I'll accept this since Judge has his charts made up so clearly. From what I understand, it's the low acceleration of Swarms that give ADSs (with Afterburner) the advantage: so why increase the top speed? If the Swarms get an acceleration increase, surely that is the solution to get more hits with a Swarm Launcher? But bear in mind that Swarms have the first mover advantage, which in this situation is meaning that the first volley hits, with no reaction from the ADS and the second will have travel to time/acceleration behind it already. Though honestly, if Swarms had a 5ms initial velocity then a 25ms/s acceleration, would that not mean that an ADS with Afterburner will definitely get hit twice and have a great likelihood of getting hit the third time? Wouldn't increasing acceleration be a much better move? ADSs need a little reining in, but little is the operative word. CCP Rattati wrote: The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's. Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories. I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change. I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit. Both changes are targeting the issue: that ADSs are too effective, one by increasing the out-of-combat window (reasonable) and the other by increasing the effectiveness of the most common and most simple to use weapon in the game. Again Rattati, have you piloted an ADS? Actually, have you piloted a NDS? I implore you to try it: hell, if you're online at any time today, I'll happily drop in ADSs for you, fit however you like, so you can try flying one. I'll happily spend all of my (measly) ISK and stockpiled dropships so you can see this how we (ADS pilots) do. I don't say this because Swarm speed increases will null and void dropships like the old 400m lock-on ones did, but with the proposed changes we're looking at ADSs that will have to be twitchier than ever (ie, run at the first sign of trouble or die) and any ADS that comes under fire will be forced to retreat for around 3x or more the length they used to, essentially marginalising the presence of any ADS if one or two people have a Swarm Launcher on them. CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. No offence, but that shows some serious naivety. Anecdotally, a Swarm user will have fired one volley certainly; have likely fired the second; and there's a good likelihood of the Swarmer locking-on with the third by the time the ADS pilot can react to the threat. With Operation 5, locking-on three times takes 3.15s (1.4 base x 0.75 + any user delay): so it takes around 4s to have locked and fired three volleys (except the first lock-on timer is irrelevant since we do not know there is a Swarmer until launch/hit - so we're looking at 2.1 lock-on time, so probably about 2.5s to launch all three volleys once the first has established lock-on), in which time an ADS is supposed to comprehend the threat (human reaction time, so roughly .25s), know where the AV is positioned (which, as established, has many problems thanks to rendering) from this first hit, then move behind the appropriate building/obstruction, assuming that there is one. Then there is the factor of the AV player's skill: how did they position? Are they on a building that negates the available cover? How hard are they hitting? All of this together is pretty much why ADSs immediately run when under fire: you have a hard time seeing the threat, you have a hard time reacting appropriately to the threat and you have a limited window in which to react before you die, so just GTFO and see if another pass will yield better information to work with. Sorry that's so anecdotal, but numbers cannot tell you whether the Swarms/Swarmer rendered, or whether the impact of the first volley tipped you on your nose/knocked you into the building that you want to take cover behind. Alt of Halla Murr.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 194	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:29:00 - [285] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's. Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories. I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change. I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit. Not before you get out of swarm max range. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. I look forward to the charts. To boil things down, everything we are debating over is under what circumstances swarms should land the third volley. I haven' seen it disputed that dropships cant tank it or harden against it. Its either a race or utilize cover. As you say, we wont be able to out manouver them either. Sorry but in terms of a race to get to 400 meters since 60>50 yes it will get anywhere we are heading towards, (cover or redline) faster than we can. Correct me if i'm wrong but swarms do not explode at 400 meters, 400 meters is how far a swarm can travel in a straight line in the 9 seconds that they are in the air. Which does make me wonder if we are incidentally increasing the swarms max range? 9 x 50 = 400, so wouldnt it become 540M in 9 seconds? If true, then good luck pilots. In terms of cover, yes dropships can use buildings ascover to approach a swarmer on top of a tower but not if they are on on the ground. If its a socket where there are many buildings (i.e map with the rings) around then only at high risk to ships themselves due to collision damage with the buildings themselves. I haven't seen any dispute that the first swarm hit is (in the majority of cases) the first indication of swarmers targeting your ship. With swarm lock on time being 1.4 seconds this gives the dropship a window of 2.8 seconds between the second and the third volle being fired at you. This gives a dropship a window of 2.8 seconds to find something to hide behind before the swarmer loses his 3rd lock. Losing the lock is not going to happen. If we take missile travel time into consideration,it is practical only if the swamer ison the ground behind some sort of building, crate, or object and only if the the swarmer is at the base of tall tower socket or under a socket (the barns in tower harvest). Ashland is a good example of this, because the giant rocketship in the middle of a map can afford you some protection. Unless AV is on top of a tower, then there is nothing between you and the swarmer at all. Thats why forge gunners always go for the highest points because there is little or no cover for a dropship. We can dodge forge rounds, but we cannot dodge a tracking missile. The majority of maps and sockets in dust however are not designed with air cover in mind. Certainly not terrain, if it were (as everybody knows??? very curious as to who said that?) then pilots wouldn't need an afterburner in the first place. Most sockets are low hanging and spread out over a wide open areas and especially in the case of maps with taller sockets there is nothing between AV and dropships except lots and lots of sky.I would like to know which maps affords terrain other than the bride map in ambush for dropship to not only hide behind but to reach before missiles hit at either 50 or 60. They are giant bowls, isn't that what enables redline sniping? The fact that the only terrain high enough to afford shots as high as the tallest sockets are at the edges of the map? Tanks manage it but I yet to see dropships flying from place to place as low as tanks. TL;DR We use cover to aproach AV and rarley to escape it. And never will use cover to escape Av if AV are on top of a building.Almost never in terms of swarms. Nearly all of the maps dust do not have terrain to escape behind. Dropships dont do this because it geting flying lower affords AV a better shot at us, swarms knock us about making it easier to crash into the ground. You may be inadverdently increasing the swarm range by boosting its speed, which i hope you look into. I'll fly anyone all day, you can tell me where to go what cover to use we're under fire without an afterburner (to prevent my insticnt of boosting away), and we'll see what happens. Inbox me in game, its only 400,000 per ship lost. I'm going to post the same offer in the CPM1 forum. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 899	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:33:00 - [286] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. I don't know if you know this but there aren't walls in the air we can hid behind. These proposals are stupid especially with the Afterburner cool downs. There is no point in having an Afterburner that last for like 40 seconds while it only takes like 5 seconds to get out of the attack zone. Also Cooldown times are stupidly long. What do you want me to do? Fly around in the redline for 45 seconds to cool down my AB and head back into the fight only to turn it on and run from a swarms 2.5 seconds later? The radius thing doesn't seem any good either. TBH, I'm losing your faith in you. You always listen to these swarm scrubs that can't kill my shiled tanked python with their armor damaging weapon that is a skill-less fire and forget cheap weapon. Oh you reduced the price of ADS? Who the F cares.. Now even militia swarms gonna be able to drop us out of the sky like flies. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y Dark Taboo 210	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:35:00 - [287] - Quote You do play the game right? Have you even bought and flown an ADS? If you have then you know that anything can hit it 3x, no matter what you put on it, and kill it right? Well,. the incubus anyway. Kind of stupid both the main anti-ADS weapons have armor damage bonus. If you really want to make it even, have something do bonus to shields and drop the price of the ADS's. Kind of sucks when you spend half a mil and tons of SP into something, for you guys to make it ineffective and pointless. I also speak not only from flying them, but also from smiting them with my forge gun ALL THE TIME. So you want to make them slower? Running away was kind of the only chance an ADS has. The point of something costing so much, requiring a lot of SP, and skills to use, is that it's supposed to be good and hard to kill right? Just make it so newer people, who don't have to aim mind you, can just lock on and kill you at their leisure? .... Do you guys look at the things we want and just want to do the opposite based on all the masses of newer players whining because they are getting stomped, not even a month into the game, or what? >.> G.L.O.R.Y solider, Master of the Heavy (Amarr & Gallente)
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 736	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:36:00 - [288] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: The radius thing doesn't seem any good either. TBH, I'm losing your faith in you. You always listen to these swarm scrubs that can't kill my shiled tanked python with their armor damaging weapon that is a skill-less fire and forget cheap weapon. Oh you reduced the price of ADS? Who the F cares.. Now even militia swarms gonna be able to drop us out of the sky like flies. Just wait how it's going to work out. The math says it's going to be fine. If that doesn't come true we can always make another change for hotfix echo.
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1107	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:41:00 - [289] - Quote ACT1ON BASTARD wrote: Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Yes it exists ive been hit head on and lost about 2000 hp on my incubus once. They usually do random damage. 2000hp from swarms that you didn't see? More like 2000hp from a Rail tank with a damage mod that you didn't see. Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.
Right-wing Extremist Nos Nothi 1107	Posted - 2014.09.13 13:47:00 - [290] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Right-wing Extremist wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: Atiim wrote: And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"? I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways). Here you go. Throughout that vid, I did not see a volley of invisible swarms in the air. The first time, on Line Harvest, his nose was swinging back toward them as they landed - and they exploded visibly. The second volley, already in the air, was also clearly visible. Every other instance of swarms shown in that video was either visible or from behind/below where it would not have been seen. I DID see where a forge gunner did damage but there was no flash of forge shot impact nor knock away effect on the dropship as it was hovering over that rail tank. But no, there were no invisible swarms flying and magically doing hitting. You wouldn't see invisible swarms because they are invisible. The swarms are launched as he swoops by the building, connecting right after he pauses. The second swarm renders, but theswarmer himself does not. Nope. The timing of the damage taken while the barn was out of view entirely, compared to how long it took the second volley of swarms to hit when the barn (and the volley) was in view, doesn't support your claim of "invisible swarms". The first volley wasn't visible because the camera wasn't facing that way when it was fired nor while it was in flight, and the explosions on impact (which are distinct from the impact of a forge shot - which is further distinct from the impact of a rail tank's shot) were quite clearly visible. You see that effect as you take damage, you know it was swarms. Jaceon Pale-eye. And you shall know me by the sound of Charge SR bullets whizzing by your head as I miss repeatedly.

Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 899	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:19:00 - [291] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: The radius thing doesn't seem any good either. TBH, I'm losing your faith in you. You always listen to these swarm scrubs that can't kill my shiled tanked python with their armor damaging weapon that is a skill-less fire and forget cheap weapon. Oh you reduced the price of ADS? Who the F cares.. Now even militia swarms gonna be able to drop us out of the sky like flies. Just wait how it's going to work out. The math says it's going to be fine. If that doesn't come true we can always make another change for hotfix echo. The reason we lose players is because broken things that aren't fixed. Say we gained 1000 players after charlie. We're going to lose them all because they are getting slaughter by Six Kin HMGS and can't do sht. If I was new, I would only give this game one chance to prove itself and then leave it alone. or uninstall it If I dislike it. If CCP leaves Swarms/ ADS in delta like this and it doesn't work out. Guess what, they just lost a bunch of ADS pilots for that period of time. Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7005	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:23:00 - [292] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Except in Delta, the Swarms will catch you. That's kinda my point. Unless the tracking nerf is sufficient to make evading a real possibility, we're just going to get hosed whenever a Swarmer pos up. Not before you get out of swarm max range. I am incredibly shaky on this kind of maths, so I'll accept this since Judge has his charts made up so clearly. From what I understand, it's the low acceleration of Swarms that give ADSs (with Afterburner) the advantage: so why increase the top speed? If the Swarms get an acceleration increase, surely that is the solution to get more hits with a Swarm Launcher? But bear in mind that Swarms have the first mover advantage, which in this situation is meaning that the first volley hits, with no reaction from the ADS and the second will have travel to time/acceleration behind it already. Though honestly, if Swarms had a 5ms initial velocity then a 25ms/s acceleration, would that not mean that an ADS with Afterburner will definitely get hit twice and have a great likelihood of getting hit the third time? Wouldn't increasing acceleration be a much better move? ADSs need a little reining in, but little is the operative word. CCP Rattati wrote: The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's. Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories. I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change. I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit. Both changes are targeting the issue: that ADSs are too effective, one by increasing the out-of-combat window (reasonable) and the other by increasing the effectiveness of the most common and most simple to use weapon in the game. Again Rattati, have you piloted an ADS? Actually, have you piloted a NDS? I implore you to try it: hell, if you're online at any time today, I'll happily drop in ADSs for you, fit however you like, so you can try flying one. I'll happily spend all of my (measly) ISK and stockpiled dropships so you can see this how we (ADS pilots) do. I don't say this because Swarm speed increases will null and void dropships like the old 400m lock-on ones did, but with the proposed changes we're looking at ADSs that will have to be twitchier than ever (ie, run at the first sign of trouble or die) and any ADS that comes under fire will be forced to retreat for around 3x or more the length they used to, essentially marginalising the presence of any ADS if one or two people have a Swarm Launcher on them. CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. No offence, but that shows some serious naivety. Anecdotally, a Swarm user will have fired one volley certainly; have likely fired the second; and there's a good likelihood of the Swarmer locking-on with the third by the time the ADS pilot can react to the threat. With Operation 5, locking-on three times takes 3.15s (1.4 base x 0.75 + any user delay): so it takes around 4s to have locked and fired three volleys (except the first lock-on timer is irrelevant since we do not know there is a Swarmer until launch/hit - so we're looking at 2.1 lock-on time, so probably about 2.5s to launch all three volleys once the first has established lock-on), in which time an ADS is supposed to comprehend the threat (human reaction time, so roughly .25s), know where the AV is positioned (which, as established, has many problems thanks to rendering) from this first hit, then move behind the appropriate building/obstruction, assuming that there is one. Then there is the factor of the AV player's skill: how did they position? Are they on a building that negates the available cover? How hard are they hitting? All of this together is pretty much why ADSs immediately run when under fire: you have a hard time seeing the threat, you have a hard time reacting appropriately to the threat and you have a limited window in which to react before you die, so just GTFO and see if another pass will yield better information to work with. Sorry that's so anecdotal, but numbers cannot tell you whether the Swarms/Swarmer rendered, or whether the impact of the first volley tipped you on your nose/knocked you into the building that you want to take cover behind. I see dropships dip behind structures all the time to break line of sight. I must be playing another game. If swarms do not have greater speed, then they cannot catch a dropship, because acceleration does not increase top speed. They just hit their max speed and stay there. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

hfderrtgvcd 386	Posted - 2014.09.13 14:34:00 - [293] - Quote I 100% agree with the swarm buffs. Out of the last three pc matches I played, each one was decided by an ADS on the other team. They were pulling 20+ kills with higher than 6 kdrs. Thats insane for pc. BTW Rattati, if you are interested in seeing what the competitive level is like, I am sure some corp would let you in a pc if you post about it in the war room. You can't fight in here! This is the war room.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 774	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:05:00 - [294] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: I see dropships dip behind structures all the time to break line of sight. I must be playing another game. If swarms do not have greater speed, then they cannot catch a dropship, because acceleration does not increase top speed. They just hit their max speed and stay there. Dip behinds buildings? Sure. Do that to avoid lock-on? Hardly. Seriously, have you ever flown a dropship or an ADS? I can understand that Swarms getting extra speed increases the threat and brings the balance closer overall, but you seem to think that ADSs can just nip behind a building at will easily,which simply isn't true. Buildings are good for blocking line of sight, but to do so between the second and third volley is a pretty tall order. Are you on DUST at the moment? I'll happily give you as many dropships as I can afford and you can try it yourself. I've literally just finished a battle where I was getting swarmed and the buildings were useful, but not because of lock-on blocking! Alt of Halla Murr.
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 38	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:32:00 - [295] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. But see, they don't care. They want everything handed to them on a silver platter, including wins. Vehicles? They don't want vehicles, they'd prefer this to be much more like Call of Duty.
The dark cloud The Rainbow Effect 4090	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:36:00 - [296] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three. Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three. Breakin Stuff wrote: A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer? Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned. What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed? Breakin Stuff wrote: Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you. Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage. Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen. Thats just comical. Most of the time when the 1st volley hits the dropship the 2nd is allready in air and the 3rd is beeing locked on allready. And that swarms dont render in alot of situations make this even harder. They say when you die you see a white light which then forms the line of: "GAME OVER! PLEASE INSERT COIN"
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 38	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:41:00 - [297] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The dark cloud wrote: When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it. All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers? Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank). Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships: Incubus fit Python The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp The python has a max HP of 3955ehp The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit. So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit. Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently. Some math. Currently, swarms go 50m/s. ADS top speed (both Python and Incubus) is 200km/h according to the game stats info when I hit triangle in the market. So let's change that number into m/s so we can effectively compare. Easiest part is changing kilometers to meters. 200 x 1000 meters to the kilometer nets us 200,000 meters per hour. Now, there are 3600 seconds in an hour (60 minutes in an hour times 60 seconds in a minute) so by dividing 200,000 by 3600 we get 55.556 m/s (rounded to the nearest thousandths place) top speed for dropships. Afterburners do not increase top speed; they simply increase acceleration greatly, meaning we can hit this top speed much easier. Video of how afterburner does not increase top speed. Also to Atiim, here is undeniable proof of the invisible swarms. Changing swarms to 60m/s will mean dropships can never outrun them; there top speed, afterburner or not, is 55.556 m/s. We need that speed to escape the killing blow. We can point out how the most tanked Python or Incubus can take this many hits, but should those be the only viable fits? And notice how none of them have gunners, which means less teamwork and more people being solo, which is part of the complaints as well. Also notice how they cannot even make there single turret proto, meaning that they are gimped in PC where everyone is running proto modules, and especially so against anything that isn't a scout. Also note how they assume one swarmer. One swarmer against the maximum possible tanked ADS can almost down it solo as is. Now, anything not the fits listed will go down to that 3rd swarm. The nerf to afterburner cooldown is justified. I can return to the fight far more quickly than I should be able to. But as the video shows, swarms pop in and out of rendering, as do the swarm users themselves. Hiding behind structures is mentioned as a means to avoid the new swarms, but not all maps have structures we can reach in time before that third volley hits. The afterburner is our only means of surviving. Invisible swarms, invisible swarmers and forgers, lack of things to hide behind, our only way to save our dropships is to outrange the AV and come back at a better angle or have infantry push them off for us. We need that speed. I ask you to change the afterburner cooldown, as that is completely justified. But I also ask you wait on the swarm speed changes until you see how the afterburner nerf pans out. Small, incremental changes like you said. I like this a lot.
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 38	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:46:00 - [298] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: poison Diego wrote: Try to fly an ADS in a domination and kill someone. After the first kill I guarantee that you will be instaganked either by a ramming gorgon or 3-12 AVers depending on if you are loosing or winning, more AVers if they are loosing (because they tend to blame you for it) This is true, which is how and why vehicles are force multipliers. If one team dedicates 4 players to deal with one then you have managed to skew the odds in your favor, if they don't then you can kill with the advantages the vehicle gives you. How many times have you seen a team getting beat, pull out an ADS or a tank and turn it completely around? A lot is the answer. How many times have you seen a team pull out a swarmer and turn it around? Only when vehicles are controlling the field. A swarmer is not a force multiplier, its sole function is to prevent the vehicles from dominating. I have to agree though that it is a very delicate balance and smaller changes are better than large ones, the AB cooldown increase shouldn't be so large. Judge had the graphs I wanted to see, I'm pretty sure these have been looked at and made with the proposed numbers as well. You're assuming competent teams on both sides, 100% of the time. This is true maybe 5% of the time, in my experience. The rest of the 95% of the time, it's either my team or the enemy with an overwhelming victory. Usually it's the enemy team with an overwhelming victory. Half the enemy team can take out AV to deal with just 2 vehicles, and my team just doesn't recognize it and doesn't push up to take A. Why again are we pushing to balance things for pubs, when FW is still a little viable even with a long wait for a match? PC is dead due to the blue donut and CCP's lack of care on that end.
Derrith Erador 2609	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:48:00 - [299] - Quote Why are the ADS pilots shouting that an acceleration buff is the end of the world? It's not that big a deal unless it gets a damage buff with it. And on that note, I may as well bust a few myths here. 1) any proto swarm can 3 shot an ADS regardless of fit. Well, that is just plain false, the number is actually four. Here is my ADS fit which can tank 3 swarm shots and live to tell the tale. 1 xt missile 1 complex heavy extender 1 enhanced light shield booster 1 basic afterburner 1 complex PG upgrade This fit also requires level two minimum into missile optimization, but I don't think that's important. This fit can survive a tango with a minmando swarm provided the booster is unused and ready for use, or it can at least survive the first clip. Which, to be frank, I believe to be fair, swarms lock on and aim for you, the only skill required for using a swarm is making the fit. 2) the new proposed buff and nerf to ADS and swarms will kill most pilots. Well, that is true, for the bad ones. (the ones who slam the flight ceiling at the first sign of trouble) I've wrote a larger guide on how to properly balance the ADS without killing it, you'll find it here, Rattati. If you could give it a read, and give me your opinion on it, that would be great. The preacher of Betty White, may her pimp hand guide me.
JudgeIsABadPilot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 38	Posted - 2014.09.13 15:52:00 - [300] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's. Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories. I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change. I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit. Maybe if, I don't know, you actually play the game, and play it with pilots, not crybaby infantry/AV that have the ability to take out half a vehicle's total HP in one shot, you can get some real visual data on what the problem is, instead of fiddling around with a bunch of numbers to satisfy one section of the community and completely shaft the other section. An example, the Manhattan Project didn't fiddle around with numbers then drop 2 nukes on Japan. They tested the nukes to get the best yields, fiddled around with numbers when they had some actual data, then built up the 2 ready nukes and dropped them. They didn't bomb Japan blindly. Aircraft manufacturers don't design, build then sell aircraft. They design, build mockups, test test test, fiddle with numbers to get a good balance between efficiency and generating cost, test again, then build a prototype and test that. It seems like CCP wants to go at this half cocked and damn what comes out the other end.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 7013	Posted - 2014.09.13 16:09:00 - [301] - Quote We have entered the stage where this conversation is no longer useful it seems. Thanks everyone for their contributions, final numbers will be out when they are ready. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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