Hello again,

we are proposing the following changes to reduce the high efficiency of the ADS and promote Normal Dropship viability as well.

In short, the ADS can function as a fast attack vehicle, with rapid redeployment and the NDS can function as a slower troop transport, able to withstand heavier fire while laying down supportive fire with missiles and blasters.

Currently the ADS is able to outrun swarms using afterburners, and return to the same spot within a few moments, fully repaired and fighting capable. We want to give swarms a better fighting chance against them, so proposing the following small changes.

1) A change so that Swarms actually outrun normal ADS speed, right now the speeds are equal, so the ADS just needs to boost away and the swarm will never catch it.

Wrong, the only time an ADS can outrun swarms is when they're right on the max lock on range, then boost out immediately to avoid the swarm. They get hit if they're any closer and slower on the AB every single time.

Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s

2) Another change in that vein, is to increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2, again to catch up with the ADS Afterburner.

Yes, another way to help the lazy that don't know what teamwork means is to buff AV.

3) To keep things balanced, we will also reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile, so it can't bend around 90 degree corners. This will allow skilled pilots to deftly avoid missiles by taking cover behind buildings and terrain.

[/b]They turn greater than 90 degrees, they go fully around 2 corners of a building.[/b]

4) We will not be changing the lock on timer nor the lock on range at this stage, and see how it goes.

That's actually surprising.

5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors, so that Vehicles that choose to boost out of harms way can either wait out the cooldown period and fly to another engagement on the map, or return back to the prior enagement before it's fully restored and then at a higher risk to itself.

Yes, reward lazy infantry behavior by nerfing vehicles, again.

6) To keep things balanced, we are also proposing an increase to the duration of Afterburners and Fuel Injectors.

7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) and an improvement to Small Blasters dmg output detailed here, including a PG/CPU reduction to them.

Let's really try to keep this constructive

tbh the swarms shoudl also be equal armor/shield damage seeing as we don't have any valid arrial AV for shield tankers, all AV currently available is + vs armor, all except the plasma cannon and tbh its not like you're gonna be knockin pythions out the skies with plasma cannons.

i'd say remove the -20% to shields/+20% to armor and have it +/-0% and have the proficiency left as is. that would help greatly vs gunloggi and pythons.

i'd be interested to see how these changes work though, its deffinitly gonna be a step in teh right direction. the issue i've always had is i can fire 3 volleys off from my wiy SL, the first will hit and teh incubus/python will just accelerate up and forward and simply outrun the 2nd and third swarms, increasing their speed and increasing their flight time would be the closest to a true balance. they need to be able to harrass a talented ADS/DS pilot but destroy an useless/average DS/ADS pilot

A single ADS forcing multiple units into AV gear all but guarantees a steamrolling.

I don't think that this is ok. I'd rather ADS be inexpensive and than be a push-button steamroll for proto stompsquads.

My two cents:
Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage.

Current:
One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW.

Proposed:
One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW.

Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three.

Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three.



If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer?

Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned.

What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed?



Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage.

Some math.

Currently, swarms go 50m/s. ADS top speed (both Python and Incubus) is 200km/h according to the game stats info when I hit triangle in the market. So let's change that number into m/s so we can effectively compare.

Easiest part is changing kilometers to meters. 200 x 1000 meters to the kilometer nets us 200,000 meters per hour. Now, there are 3600 seconds in an hour (60 minutes in an hour times 60 seconds in a minute) so by dividing 200,000 by 3600 we get 55.556 m/s (rounded to the nearest thousandths place) top speed for dropships. Afterburners do not increase top speed; they simply increase acceleration greatly, meaning we can hit this top speed much easier. Video of how afterburner does not increase top speed. Also to Atiim, here is undeniable proof of the invisible swarms. Changing swarms to 60m/s will mean dropships can never outrun them; there top speed, afterburner or not, is 55.556 m/s.

We need that speed to escape the killing blow. We can point out how the most tanked Python or Incubus can take this many hits, but should those be the only viable fits? And notice how none of them have gunners, which means less teamwork and more people being solo, which is part of the complaints as well. Also notice how they cannot even make there single turret proto, meaning that they are gimped in PC where everyone is running proto modules, and especially so against anything that isn't a scout. Also note how they assume one swarmer. One swarmer against the maximum possible tanked ADS can almost down it solo as is. Now, anything not the fits listed will go down to that 3rd swarm.

The nerf to afterburner cooldown is justified. I can return to the fight far more quickly than I should be able to. But as the video shows, swarms pop in and out of rendering, as do the swarm users themselves. Hiding behind structures is mentioned as a means to avoid the new swarms, but not all maps have structures we can reach in time before that third volley hits. The afterburner is our only means of surviving. Invisible swarms, invisible swarmers and forgers, lack of things to hide behind, our only way to save our dropships is to outrange the AV and come back at a better angle or have infantry push them off for us. We need that speed. I ask you to change the afterburner cooldown, as that is completely justified. But I also ask you wait on the swarm speed changes until you see how the afterburner nerf pans out. Small, incremental changes like you said.

This is true, which is how and why vehicles are force multipliers. If one team dedicates 4 players to deal with one then you have managed to skew the odds in your favor, if they don't then you can kill with the advantages the vehicle gives you.

How many times have you seen a team getting beat, pull out an ADS or a tank and turn it completely around? A lot is the answer. How many times have you seen a team pull out a swarmer and turn it around? Only when vehicles are controlling the field. A swarmer is not a force multiplier, its sole function is to prevent the vehicles from dominating.

I have to agree though that it is a very delicate balance and smaller changes are better than large ones, the AB cooldown increase shouldn't be so large. Judge had the graphs I wanted to see, I'm pretty sure these have been looked at and made with the proposed numbers as well.

The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's.

Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories.

I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change.

I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit.