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Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

I will state again, that I disagree with lowering the price of the assault dropship. Bringing one into a fight is a decision made based on the fight. We all need to be ground infantry first, pilots second. Not every single fight needs a dropship, the argument of going 4 matches without losing a ship to break even is invalid, you should be able to call in a dropship to perform a task and retreat or recall when said task is done. I agree with the current price of assault dropships, I am happy to pay them.

Even using your example of Call In - Fight - Recall: what happens when two or more battles in a row require/would be enormously improved by the presence of an ADS? Losing a single one means going ISK negative for several battles, even running on the ground, and if you're looking at calling in more to support your team even with the intention of recalling, what happens when you lose multiple?

You're trying to help your team, but by doing so you personally are potentially losing millions of ISK. All of the risk is on you, with next to no reward.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 16 post(s)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2550	Posted - 2014.09.05 14:27:00 - [1] - Quote As an AV gunner I would suggest 200,000 Rattati. In my experience a skilled forge gunner can consistently kill an ADS between 30-50% of the time. Once the swarm adjustments go hot we are going to see a brief spurt of ADS dropping like hailstones then enjoying a lower survival rate than they have now as the pilots adapt. I would err on the side of a slightly larger price break as losing one in a match means a pilot breaks even at best if yhey use free dropsuits for the rest of the match. Only AV fits tend to have survival costs as bad as that on the infantry side. (Right around break even) assuming you run ADV. STD cant fight anything but MLT dropships.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2555	Posted - 2014.09.05 17:46:00 - [2] - Quote JudgeIsABadPilot wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation. In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. My two cents: Two proto swarmers working together should crash an ADS caught offguard, afterburner or not. Having multiple troops trapped in AV gear affords the opponent too great an advantage. Current: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire repels with enthusiasm. Afterburner, FTW. Proposed: One Swarmer repels. Focused fire overwhelms and destroys. Teamwork, FTW. And there it is, the ideal goal is to solo the best pilots in the game, the ones that have been in their preferred roles for over a year. And ultimately, they want the removal of vehicles so this is merely Call of Duty in space. I do believe the proposed scenario there would require two swarms in tandem. Not horribly unreasonable given that a forge gun can solo crash an ADS. Plasma cannon is a joke. I managed to kill an ADS once with it because the pilot horribly screwed up coupled with a one-in-a-million lucky pair of shots. I haven't even come close to repeating that trick since
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2556	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:03:00 - [3] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2558	Posted - 2014.09.05 18:44:00 - [4] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it. I blame others for my performance issues Sure theres no risk at all, we just afterburn in a mad panic to get 400 meters away as soon as ONE swarm volley hits us because you know we feel like it. Because as we all know, dropships never get shot down, ever. not by swarms they don't. By me? all the time. Because forge gun. You're welcome.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2581	Posted - 2014.09.06 11:35:00 - [5] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Actually, I forgot to write the ISK reduction, we are thinking 250k ISK? Ah yes, the awesome power+low cost approach to balance. Also used for 1.7 tanks with great results Works extremely well for me. Target rich environment is utterly hilarious. Especially since most vehicle drivers are idiots.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2669	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:44:00 - [6] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2670	Posted - 2014.09.08 19:50:00 - [7] - Quote Mat'DeVrie wrote: You are WRONG! You DO NOT need to spec into Heavy suits !! You can fit a forgegun into MILITIA heavy dropsuit! ---- It does NOT require ANY skillpoints investment! Hilariously correct. Except for the fact that the militia forge gun is only slightly more effective as an AV weapon than militia swarms. Prototype weapons (forge guns) kill ADS in three shots. Swarms are basically 4th of July firecracker lauchers we use to celebrate Impotence Day!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:47:00 - [8] - Quote I don't even Swarm. I kill ADS with the forge gun. Right tool for the right job. I use swarms when I want to celebrate Impotence Day with fireworks. And I never said I wanted them to be EASY mode. I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:48:00 - [9] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:37:00 - [10] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout. Not true at all, I know you can get points just damaging vehicles... Warpoints affect if you get a higher % of the total payment for the match. But 2000 WP fighting militia dropsuits and no vehicles runs about 250-300k Blowing protostompers and expensive HAV and ADS can double it. Only if you actually destroy though. Its a bad system. But for balance swarmers need to have a reasonable chance of killing ADS. There is no reality where I believe ADS always being killed by swarms is any better for balance than ADS automatically escaping. You lose 500k isk for losing an ADS. If you run AV proto is the only way to threaten most vehicles. When you run dedicated AV and encounter hostile infantry. Losing three to four proto AV suits is not uncommon trying tokill a good ADS or HAV driver so the cost achieves parity.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:41:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Nice! Thank you rattati for providing me more dropships to kill! You are my favorite dev now. Im all for vehicles to be more plentiful.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:46:00 - [12] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. Killing a 25 million SP tank or ADS driver requires a 25 milion SP AV gunner to do with any measure of consistency. One thing I will give playing my tank alt after a year hiatus is GODDAMN WHY IS THERE NO WAY TO FIT THOSE BAD BOYS? The only PG/CPU skill I dont have is large turret optimization. Cant fit an advanced module fit on a madrugar... have trouble fitting BASIC. Tell me your seekrits. No wonder most of them are so damn easy to kill.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2692	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:49:00 - [13] - Quote Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2725	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:29:00 - [14] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Python Fit: STD Afterburner; ADV Heavy Extender; STD Heavy Extender; PRO PG Extension; ADV AT-1 Missile. 3244 shields/960 armour. CBR-7 (No Proficiency): Kills on the 5th volley (10.45 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, Rapid Reload 5): Kills on the 5th volley (9.275 seconds plus travel time) Wiyrkomi (Proficiency 5, RR 5, MinCom 5, 2x PRO Damage Mod): Kills on the 4th volley (8.185 seconds plus travel time) Currrent AV capacity, pre-Delta, practical application: Because Dropships have unlisted, innate resists to AV weapons. DAU/2 Assault Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 damage mods Kills on the third shot. 6.75 Seconds Ishukone Assault Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 Damage Mods Kills on the third shot. 6.75 Seconds Wiyrkomi Breach Forge Gun Proficiency 4, 2 Damage Mods Kills on the second shot. 9 seconds there's about a 50/50 chance the pilot will be out of range or juking hard enough to evade before the third shot lands. Bitching about 8 seconds for swarms to kill seems childish when that doesn't match up to a forge gun's hammer capacity. Run your numbers against a tanked incubus now. Oddly enough... Mine don't change. This is brought to you by: The guy who kills vehicles for a living.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2725	Posted - 2014.09.11 20:38:00 - [15] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I will state again, that I disagree with lowering the price of the assault dropship. Bringing one into a fight is a decision made based on the fight. We all need to be ground infantry first, pilots second. Not every single fight needs a dropship, the argument of going 4 matches without losing a ship to break even is invalid, you should be able to call in a dropship to perform a task and retreat or recall when said task is done. I agree with the current price of assault dropships, I am happy to pay them. Even using your example of Call In - Fight - Recall: what happens when two or more battles in a row require/would be enormously improved by the presence of an ADS? Losing a single one means going ISK negative for several battles, even running on the ground, and if you're looking at calling in more to support your team even with the intention of recalling, what happens when you lose multiple? You're trying to help your team, but by doing so you personally are potentially losing millions of ISK. All of the risk is on you, with next to no reward. Also, if you do NOT call in a ADS, how are you helping me achieve my goal of pasting the expensive things and causing them to crash on blue and red dots indiscriminately? I mean, think of myself, and people like me. If ADS become cheaper, then I will have MORE JUICY TARGETS TO SHOOT AT! Come to think of it, let's drop the price on HAVs again.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2746	Posted - 2014.09.12 15:19:00 - [16] - Quote I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair. The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance. A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard. Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable. Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you.