All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers?

Because swarms do not render reliably for us. A lot of the time we don't even know the threat is there until we are hit. Swarms have the first hit advantage. If we could see them, or have some way to know we are being locked, or flares and other countermeasures, things would be different.

And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"?

I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways).

When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it.

And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"?

I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways).

And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"?

I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways).

Because swarms do not render reliably for us. A lot of the time we don't even know the threat is there until we are hit. Swarms have the first hit advantage. If we could see them, or have some way to know we are being locked, or flares and other countermeasures, things would be different.

quote=CCP Rattati]

All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers?

All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers?

Allright lets start this then. Lets assume we got a scout with a proto swarm launcher, 2DMG mods and proficency 5 into it. Base damage from swarms will be then at 1572HP. Times 3 is 4716HP damage which you cannot avoid oh and thats omni damage without damage boost vs armor or damage penalty vs shields (+/- 20%). So lets see how much damage it would cause vs a incubus (armor tank) and a python (shield tank).

Armor damage: 5659 HP damage with 3 volleys
shield damage: 3772 HP damage with 3 volleys

So lets put this in perspective with how much HP you can squeeze out of both dropships:
Incubus fit
Python

The Incubus got a max HP of about 5197ehp
The python has a max HP of 3955ehp

The incubus will die allready due to the high damage output alone and the little bit of shields wont save it. You might would think that going for the python would be a better idea but as soon the shields are breaking the damage gets a boost vs armor and its going to crash with its nose into the ground. Oh and please ignore the warning that PG is not sufficent on the right. The site is bugged so that PG upgrades dont add to the PG of the fit.

So whats going to happend is that a ADS wont be capable to avoid beeing blowed up without a chance to escape the swarms. Most of the time pilots hit the AB when they have beeing hit with the 1st volley but with the changes that will be too late cause 2 more are incoming and are granted to hit.

Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently.

Throughout that vid, I did not see a volley of invisible swarms in the air. The first time, on Line Harvest, his nose was swinging back toward them as they landed - and they exploded visibly. The second volley, already in the air, was also clearly visible. Every other instance of swarms shown in that video was either visible or from behind/below where it would not have been seen.

I DID see where a forge gunner did damage but there was no flash of forge shot impact nor knock away effect on the dropship as it was hovering over that rail tank.

But no, there were no invisible swarms flying and magically doing hitting.

Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently.

Ive though swarms where supposed to get a speed buff so that they are capable to catch AB dropships? Or did that concept got scrapped and i didnt noticed it? In your OP youve stated that swarms max speed will be faster then a ADS and the acceleration will aswell be buffed.

speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable.

speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable.

Why are they guaranteed to get hit by 3 swarms? Where is the math to prove that, i.e. difference before and after Delta? The AB keeps the same boost and should effectively evade as he does now, granted, the ADS cannot afford the same hovering as it can now, and can not return fully healed with restored AB's until after a longer time than currently.

First, pilots can usually not see when swarms are shot from a launcher because of sh*tty rendering so 2 swarms are already on their way and if you cant run away from the third you are screwed before you even try to take off.

Second, you are only talking about 1vs1 engagements but not taking in factor that every time an ADS is turning to be annoying 60% of the enemy team has AV out looking for you so generally you are taking on 2-5 people at once using AV. But imagine only 2 people with proto with that buff. They only need two volleys already and with speed buff there is NO chance of withstanding them.

Third, if you are giving the AV such nasty buffs can you please reduce impact damage from other dropships and tapping walls? Walls are my greatest enemies atm, when I touch them they just dont want to let me go and hold me until It drains my health with some weird constant damage. Either impact damage or sticky effects please.

I generally dont have a grumpy attitude towards CCP but when things are getting so close to being absolute nonsense I break. Infantry players are sometimes really pissed off towards vehicle specialists, I know that and since infantry are way larger percentage of players CCP wants to do every thing they can to please them but when you are giving buffs to AV update after update it gets tired and I cant stand it anymore. Vehicles are getting more and more ineffective and there for expensive for no reason. Tanks atm stand no chance vs AV. We are not all duna and such btw so please try not to set your aim on nerfing those nolife-ing machines.

Hey dark you forgot that alot of people have now speced into the minmatar commando for the swarm damage
(because they think swarms are so useless?pff!) so add 10% on that damage output...

I propose giving use the pre announced hp buff 300-500 to shield on pythons and 200-300 to armour on incubus because it is kind of ridiculus to keep buffing AV (telling youself that buff to AB duration is actually balancing) and leave the pilots in the dirt.

speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable.

I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair.

The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance.

A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard.

Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable.

Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you.

you actually believe there is skill in locking on to targets and releasing?

Ok I dont think it is to fair either that I can outrun swarms but when they are violating me with that insane damage I can not help but think that ADS should get somewhat buff vs the swarm buff. you speak of like 5 swarmers vs ADSs is uncommon. well ITS NOT!

He has a point, breaking. Swarms require little to no skill to use, perhaps with their homing nerf, that might change, but that is to be seen.

It is true that ADS can outrun swarms, that we do not deny, but if you've been in a pub with a single decent pilot, the usual amount of swarms that come from the noobs is just ridiculous. I've proposed that the acceleration should be restricted to ADV and proto tier swarms, so that will keep the red shirts from being able to spam a weapon that locks on for you, but will also keep a risk-reward system going (as I see it).

I m seeing a lot of anecdotal screaming that buffing swarms is unfair and very little hard evidence as to why vehicles outrunning missiles is fair.

The only way swarms kill ADS currently is the dropship pilot is an utter idiot or five of them focus fire for instablap. This is not weapon balance.

A 25 million SP AV fit should have a 50/50 ish chance of killing a 25 million SP vehicle at some point during a match. The actual skill of the gunner vs. The skill of the pilot should be what skews the curve, not the cost of what fit. Forge guns can solo dropships, its just hard.

Swarms should be able to solo dropships. It should just be hard. It will be given that swarms are slower alpha and more easily dodged. 8 seconds-ish (swarm) vs. 6.75 (assault forge) seems pretty damn reasonable.

Not being able to accelerate out of range faster than missiles can fly will encourage better maneuvering rather than saving the survival instinct for when the sentinel puts his attention on you.

Watch the video that Tesfa and I linked to in the above posts: that video will demonstrate how and why Swarms aren't actually outrun by ADS, rather that ADSs reach their top speed quicker. The only thing to be said for Swarm/ADS speed is that the ADS can scale lock-on range quickly, but this has very little to do with the Afterburner anyway: most engagements take place at a range of about 60-80m, meaning the dropship only has to travel 100m or so to escape lock-on range. That distance is covered very quickly, usually regardless of vehicle (HAVs and LAVs both also run this distance in a very short time), which means that an ADS that runs is usually facing only the volleys launched before it runs, which is almost always two but mstill fairly often three.

Essentially, ADSs don't outrun Swarms, they outrange them (ie, get ahead of them and stay ahead until they run out of fuel) which is a key difference. With the proposed changes to swarm speed/acceleration, an ADS will almost never escape a swarm volley, because Afterburners do not increase top speed, meaning that they will get hit by two volleys and almost certainly by three.



If price shouldn't be an issue, then a much greater price drop should not be an issue. 200-300k for a fully fitted (solo) ADS is still expensive, but it would mean that pilots are not getting shafted for several battles by losing a single ship. Price not being factor cuts both ways: if price doesn't make something better, then why is it more expensive? Plain and simple, why is that question so difficult for some people to answer?

Now, tell me what can a pilot do against a lock-on, auto-tracking weapon that they cannot outrun? We have speed as an advantage, which we are losing from the proposal; we have resilience, which is essentially sufficient to survive the first two hits and give us the opportunity to react, but then we still have to absorb more damage before we even acquire our enemy and we have very little to no cover depending on the map/how well the Swarmer has positioned.

What can a pilot do if: there's nowhere to hide and we cannot escape using speed?



Tell me, what manoeuvres will help? The Swarms will still track you, they fly faster than you and then you still have an enemy to deal with who has exactly the same advantage next time (assuming you survive somehow) if you try and engage.

Theres maneuvers to dodge forges but dodging swarms is tricky and it usually doesnt work if youre caught by suprise. You go full speed then abruptly turn your nose towards the swarm rockets while flying backwards and they usually explode beforehand wo touching you. With the new swarm speed buff i doubt itll be possible, its already hard enough as is to pull it off.