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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 16 post(s)
Tebu Gan Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1198	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:02:00 - [181] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So you merely want the advantage PURELY in your hands. I don't know about you but that's the very definition of an imbalance. And it's very foolish to assume the ADS is unkillable as is. Just because YOU can't take one down doesn't mean others don't take them down regularly. It's typically the better pilots that manage to escape a swarm launcher, and even still they do go down. Much like bad tankers burn all the time yet the good ones you come across seem unkillable. It's skills, and sorry, you can't just expect to pump a few missiles into something to blow it up. Even you yourself NEED to use tactics, much like that ADS does. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 751	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:33:00 - [182] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? That's not even close to what I said. WP for vehicle damage was introduced because a lot of effort could be put into repelling vehicles, yet it wasn't rewarded. Now it is, and handsomely so. For firing two volleys of Swarms at an ADS you get more points than for killing another clone, hacking a non-NULL Cannon installation or for destroying a CRU. The current bent of V/AV 'balancing' is essentially looking at ADSs and going, "We should totally be able to kill those more easily, even though we get a ton of points (and thus payout) for just driving them off, let alone when we actually do bring them down we get more points still." If Swarms (AV in general really) is capable of dropping an ADS out of the sky easily, then there is pretty much no reason for vehicle damage points to exist in the form they currently inhabit: which is a ***-ton of points. If ADSs are to die easily, then why should you get rewarded with roughly 300 WP just just firing a Swarm Launcher 3/4 times when the ADS has to struggle through bad target identification (tiny infantry targets), coming under attack with zero warning (ie, Swarms impacting on your ship without any indication of them being fired) and with the insane cost of minimum 340,000 ISK per dropship (assuming entirely militia fitting) when were looking at making Swarms more effective.* Swarms are not incapable of destroying ADSs, even solo or paired. But the ADS has significant hurdles to overcome to actually be effective, not least of which is the enormous cost of maintaining the role. Either costs plummet, and AV gets to shoot down the WP pi+¦atas, or costs stay the same and we get to keep our relative resilience (which consists of running away and not contributing whenever AV is brought out at all.) Breakin Stuff wrote: all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So, you don't want the huge WP, and you do want to see us explode more? Then why is a price reduction that means we don't run ISK negative for two games minimum because we lost a single ship unreasonable? If we are to lose multiple ships to one AVer each match, why should we be paying more than 3 Proto suits worth of ISK each time? Surely if an ADS is to be so vulnerable to AV, it's cheap to manufacture - or why ******* bother!? You want more explosions. We want to be able to bring out more ships that you will be able to shoot down. Where's the issue? Especially since if were easy to shoot down like you want, then we will not be 'stomping' like everyone complains about. Alt of Halla Murr.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 205	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:34:00 - [183] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: I don't know how many times swarms have denied an ADS an area. I don't really know what the problem with the swarm and ADS balance is. Right now swarms are the BEST thing against an ADS, due to the fire and forget nature of them. Indeed. The entire point of introducing vehicle damage points was to reward AV for suppressing and driving vehicles off without necessarily killing them, though they still get WP for that (which is entirely reasonable) yet that is not enough apparently. Personally, if Swarms and AV is supposed to be able to kill a vehicle 1-on-1 and at least 50% of the time (as it appears to be the goal) then two things must happen to remain balanced: - price reductions of vehicles (primarily the ridiculous ADS hull cost, but also large turret costs, etc) - removal or a severe reduction in vehicle damage WP, since they will be getting many more destruction points more commonly if these changes are going to pass muster. so... you're saying that swarms shouldn't have a chance to kill your dropship and the gunners should be thankful for the +75s your generosity showers upon them? Funny, I don't really notice the +75s at all... I do notice the pretty flames and entertaining crash animations when the hulks hit the ground and roll over a couple red (and blue) dots. all the warpoints for hammering on vehicles means is that gunners aren't going to max out at 600 WP for a match because they spent all their time chasing YOUR ass around the map along with your two tank buddies and finally scoring kills. I don't think most gunners want the farmed warpoints more than they want to see you explode. After all, patiently watching you yo-yo back and forth to and from safety denies us the pretty flames and outraged screams. So you're still not content when you can easily farm 2000wp just by shooting at us? Greedy little bastard aren't you? And as those war points are related to vehicle damage/destruction, that also means that you get exponentially more isk. The payout starts around 400k... and you're still not content with that? I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
danthrax martin Butcher's Nails 114	Posted - 2014.09.08 20:54:00 - [184] - Quote I don't care about WP, they just happen when an ADS farms infantry and runs from other vehicles... Pro Galmando - Gal Sentinel Suicidal A/V Moron
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:47:00 - [185] - Quote I don't even Swarm. I kill ADS with the forge gun. Right tool for the right job. I use swarms when I want to celebrate Impotence Day with fireworks. And I never said I wanted them to be EASY mode. I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2671	Posted - 2014.09.08 21:48:00 - [186] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 752	Posted - 2014.09.08 22:55:00 - [187] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I want them to be able to threaten ADS with death. You seem to be mightily offended by the very concept of a filthy infantry pud damaging your Precious ISK sink. If an AV weapon cannot kill a vehicle then it is imbalanced. If an AV weapon cannot fail to kill a vehicle it is imbalanced. You cannot kill an ADS with swarms without a half squad alpha strike. All to kill a solitary person. Tanks are soloable, what makes you special? I want the ADS price reduction because i want more targets to make fall from the sky like 20 ton hailstones. Swarms do threaten ADSs, which is why they invariably GTFO of dodge the moment they get hit by the first volley of Swarms. I am offended by the way that certain people think that a Swarm should be able to drop my extremely expensive vehicle while also naysaying any price reduction. As I've said, if my ADS is to be shot down often to a single AVer, it needs to be substantially cheaper (ie, less than 200k) but if it is to remain expensive then a single Swarmer should not be able to shoot me down trivially just because they decided to pull out their 30k ISK AV Commando suit. I'm fine with my ADS dropping out of the sky every time I pull it out. I am not OK with it costing 10 times the cost of an AV suit each time. Either: - ADS is cheap and easily shot down Or - ADS stays expensive and is difficult to shoot down. Honestly, I'd rather we have some medium in the middle: the current state of V/AV balance is such that this is the case, especially since WP for vehicle damage is a factor (ie,rewarding AV for repelling and not outright destroying.) V/AV is about more than Swarms and ADSs: Forge Guns kill ADSs and are difficult to both use against an ADS (due to an ADSs speed/mobility) and counter by an ADS (due to the FGs power and requirement to stay mobile making shots difficult) making the FG/ADS balance excellent. The Swarm/ADS balance is not too far off: Swarms kick out a lot of power with relatively little expertise required (that is to say, a relative newbie to swarms will be able to perform adequately at repelling an ADS, while a veteran Swarmer will be able to chase and position much more effectively) and have advantages due to poor game optimisation (ie,non-rendering Swarms) and other intangibles (infantry being very small targets for ADSs, for example.) A lot of the talks about 'balancing' ADSs seems to come from the notion that ADSs need to get shot down more frequently. Why do ADSs need to be shot down more frequently? I ask that as a genuine question. A good ADS pilot is one who is alert constantly while they are anywhere near the danger zone and will retreat when hit (due to the fact that lacking cover and having relatively low tanking maximums requires retreat and reevaluation of the situation each time) - this means that whenever they retreat they have been suppressed from actively affecting the battle for between 10-30 seconds at a time: and this kind of suppression can be performed in about 5/6 seconds by a single Swarm user. Really, the question is, why is an ADSs survivability an issue when suppression is rewarded? If suppression is not enough, such that a nerf to ADSs/buff to swarms is required,why would the reward for suppression remain, and why would the price point for ADSs remain exorbitantly high? (That turned into a longer post than originally intended :P) Alt of Halla Murr.
Temias Mercurial Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 205	Posted - 2014.09.08 23:22:00 - [188] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout. Not true at all, I know you can get points just damaging vehicles... My apologies if I come off as an elitist, but I try to view things objectively, logically, and factually.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3481	Posted - 2014.09.09 01:11:00 - [189] - Quote I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
emm kay G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 190	Posted - 2014.09.09 02:07:00 - [190] - Quote Repe Susi wrote: Swarms are only AV option against dropships for light and medium frames as it is. And as it is, they are lacking against every vehicle except LAVs. Well, fitted Methanas and Sagas can escape swarms easily enough too. Press R1, get lit up by infantry and that's it. The PlC knocks us around like flies. The mlt forge gun with mlt caldari heavy for 1,000 isk downs a vessel worth 700x more than that. Also bumping this quote. Fine china with bugs is not a plate to eat off of. Jebus McKing wrote: I guess you are fixing rendering range problems aswell then? It's really awesome being shot at by a couple of swarmers/forgers and you will never know their location because they won't render if you are not within 10m of their location. And being knocked around like crazy when being hit by anything in the wrong spot. And that bug that makes you zoom in while in 3rd person view so you can't see anything except the butt of your ADS. And Incubus surviving when ramming a Python? And ADS ISK costs? I still question the usefulness of ADS and I don't think making it easier to fight them while keeping their high costs is fair. Losing an ADS is too expensive to justify reducing their effectiveness, IMO. So if you make it easier to fight them, please, reduce their costs aswell. kthx -- You called, sir?

Anmol Singh G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 893	Posted - 2014.09.09 02:26:00 - [191] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. *Sagaris lover!!!* Commando <3

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6785	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:24:00 - [192] - Quote These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:37:00 - [193] - Quote Temias Mercurial wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Temias Mercurial wrote: I know for a fact that 2000wp obtained by fighting/assisting infantry does not offer the same payout as 2000wp against vehicles... Yeah, because the more expensive the stuff that's destroyed, the better the payout for your team. Killing two fully kitted ADS results in about a million ISK added to the pot. Here's the kicker. you have to KILL THE VEHICLE to get the payout. Not true at all, I know you can get points just damaging vehicles... Warpoints affect if you get a higher % of the total payment for the match. But 2000 WP fighting militia dropsuits and no vehicles runs about 250-300k Blowing protostompers and expensive HAV and ADS can double it. Only if you actually destroy though. Its a bad system. But for balance swarmers need to have a reasonable chance of killing ADS. There is no reality where I believe ADS always being killed by swarms is any better for balance than ADS automatically escaping. You lose 500k isk for losing an ADS. If you run AV proto is the only way to threaten most vehicles. When you run dedicated AV and encounter hostile infantry. Losing three to four proto AV suits is not uncommon trying tokill a good ADS or HAV driver so the cost achieves parity.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:41:00 - [194] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Nice! Thank you rattati for providing me more dropships to kill! You are my favorite dev now. Im all for vehicles to be more plentiful.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2681	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:46:00 - [195] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. Killing a 25 million SP tank or ADS driver requires a 25 milion SP AV gunner to do with any measure of consistency. One thing I will give playing my tank alt after a year hiatus is GODDAMN WHY IS THERE NO WAY TO FIT THOSE BAD BOYS? The only PG/CPU skill I dont have is large turret optimization. Cant fit an advanced module fit on a madrugar... have trouble fitting BASIC. Tell me your seekrits. No wonder most of them are so damn easy to kill.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3104	Posted - 2014.09.09 05:54:00 - [196] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Nice! Thank you rattati for providing me more dropships to kill! You are my favorite dev now. Im all for vehicles to be more plentiful. He's not even a Dev... Sad when someone they pulled from a non-development department gets put in charge of game support, and more gets done in a handful of months than has gotten done in 2 years. \o/ PRAISE THE RATATOUILLE! Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 359	Posted - 2014.09.09 08:08:00 - [197] - Quote could you fix the blaster circle to be like the missle reticile so in third person it is not straight down
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3481	Posted - 2014.09.09 10:18:00 - [198] - Quote Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 42	Posted - 2014.09.09 11:58:00 - [199] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD As most of the av said before five pages of arguments started, 200k for a reasonably fitted ads should be fair. Yes to start with there will be a few more ships in the air but that will go back to normal. Also as one av person stated on page 9, they mainly like watching us crash and explode so they should like more ships. Even with the small turret price reduction (good idea, encourages people to have multiple gunners, increasing teamwork) the ads price should be around 140 - 150k so is fittable for around 200k. Can I also again request a change to the way afterburners work. I request the increase maneuverability as well as just speed. Ie, we can go up faster, DOWN faster and turn faster. This will help as you are now expecting us to evade swarms by ducking behind buildings or into trenches and cuttings. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 42	Posted - 2014.09.09 12:06:00 - [200] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter

Foundation Seldon Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 740	Posted - 2014.09.09 12:11:00 - [201] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Cooldown numbers seem fair. Are there still plans to make it so that each tier gives more of a speed boost? Because I'll reiterate what I said before hand, a cooldown reduction (especially of only 10 seconds between STD and PRO) alone won't justify the increased cost both in ISK and in the hit you'll take on your fitting. There needs to be a more tangible difference in the tiers of these modules (... and Vehicle Active Scanners) or else the fitting requirements for these modules need to be rebalanced. In any case the price looks good. This combined with the small turret price reduction will easily cut my ADS fits in half and will undoubtedly incentivize my use of PRO small turrets in LAVs as well.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 6796	Posted - 2014.09.09 13:01:00 - [202] - Quote Foundation Seldon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: These are the numbers on AFterburners and Injectors, in seconds Cooldownprop Cooldown MIL 1045 STD 1045 ADV 1040 PRO 1035 The prices we are looking at for the ADS is 200k ISK, and also a reduction in the cost of small turrets, TBD Cooldown numbers seem fair. Are there still plans to make it so that each tier gives more of a speed boost? Because I'll reiterate what I said before hand, a cooldown reduction (especially of only 10 seconds between STD and PRO) alone won't justify the increased cost both in ISK and in the hit you'll take on your fitting. There needs to be a more tangible difference in the tiers of these modules (... and Vehicle Active Scanners) or else the fitting requirements for these modules need to be rebalanced. In any case the price looks good. This combined with the small turret price reduction will easily cut my ADS fits in half and will undoubtedly incentivize my use of PRO small turrets in LAVs as well. Well that's exactly the intent. We mulled over the speed boost, either tiered starting at 150% or ending at 150% but we need to know how the new swarm acceleration and top speed behaves first, so we will revisit. For now, just the cooldown, and same duration and speed boost. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3484	Posted - 2014.09.09 13:34:00 - [203] - Quote a brackers wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. And in pub matches you shouldn't really be roling round in more than 70k worth of HAV. I've no problem with the ADS reduction. My ADS fits are currently 420k so whoever is telling you 800k is running full PRO. As for SP your looking at 26.7 Mil, so once again whoever is telling you that is talking out their backside. With proposed reduction to 200,000 for your hull and turret price reduction, you should be able to make a profit, even if you loose 1 dropship, provided you pull your weight or win! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 758	Posted - 2014.09.09 14:23:00 - [204] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: You lose 500k isk for losing an ADS. If you run AV proto is the only way to threaten most vehicles. When you run dedicated AV and encounter hostile infantry. Losing three to four proto AV suits is not uncommon trying tokill a good ADS or HAV driver so the cost achieves parity. PRO AV is most definitely not the only way to threaten vehicles. I'm at MinCom 3/SwarmOp 3 and I can threaten all vehicles with death: do I kill every ADS I come across? No, but nor should I. Quite simply, even with the 30,000ish ISK MinCom suit I run, I can kill an ADS that lingers, during which time I am almost certainly surviving the 1-on-1 due to knock back throwing off their aim and my own ability to judge their aiming capabilities. PRO AV is not necessary to threaten vehicles. That is, very plainly, a bare faced lie. Reducing price down to 200k for the hull is a good start and will be a big break to every pilot. (My standard Python fit costs 420,00ish, so that brings it down to 320k: my Incubus is 518,000, so 418,000 will be welcome.) I think the proposed 30% ISK reduction for small turrets may be a little too much, particularly at PRO. A PRO small turret is about 100k, I think 80k for a PRO small turret wouldn't be unreasonable and would fit the baby steps approach! Alt of Halla Murr.
a brackers Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 44	Posted - 2014.09.09 14:46:00 - [205] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: a brackers wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Anmol Singh wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: I think you two are getting out of hand. Vehicle balance is achieved when a vehicle CAN be soloed, with comparable ease to with which the vehicle can kill infantry. This is the firsf and most important clause in V/AV balance, this MUST be adhered to. Secondly a vehicle must be given an opportunity to escape. In the case of Dropship vs Swarms this is the 4.8 seconds between volley 3 and volley 4. IF you retreat successfully with this window you will survive. Now Currently, Afterburners and infact even dropships without them are capable of completly out running that 4th fatal volley, long after the window of opportunity has passed. In some cases I've seen the 4th volley has been halfway there before the pilot pulls out, yet he still survives and it's this behaviour that is unbalanced. When vehicles can be soloed my butt! 47k isk skill less swarm launcher should require a lot of effort to take down a 500k isk asset worth almost 5x the sp. This was debunked well over 3 months ago. You are talking about a single weapon, in which case AVers have every right to bring up mlt vehicles with 0SP requirements and a cost of about 70K under the same discussion. A fully kitted out AV fit requires approximately: Commando: 27Mil SP + 210,000 ISK Logistics: 30Mil SP +236,000 ISK A fully kitted out HAV No Light Turrets: 22Mil SP + 470,000 ISK With Light Turrets: 28Mil SP + 643,000 ISK So even with a large pro turret and pro modules, your less than 2x the price of my 550 eHP Logistics Suit, in order to be nearly 3x my cost you then need to add 2 full PRO light turrets, now from the tankers I talk to, you don't bother with it you simply put miltia ones on their instead. But you won't here me complaining when you can loose 5-10 of those logistics a match and sometimes still not successfully kill you. Please try and leave out the biased information next time. Firstly, you really shouldn't be using absolute full proto in pub matches, my swarmer costs 47k and does the job pretty nicely. My forger costs 30.5k and does the job very nicely. Secondly this forum is absolutely nothing to do with tanks. Against ads which costs up to 800k and up to 47 Mill sp (haven't checked that but it's what people are saying, I know 800k is right though) if you are a min commando we don't have a chance of getting near u and given we can't see the swarms, if we are near your max range you can have six sets of invisible seams in the air before the first one impacts. It only takes three to four to kill us. And in pub matches you shouldn't really be roling round in more than 70k worth of HAV. I've no problem with the ADS reduction. My ADS fits are currently 420k so whoever is telling you 800k is running full PRO. As for SP your looking at 26.7 Mil, so once again whoever is telling you that is talking out their backside. With proposed reduction to 200,000 for your hull and turret price reduction, you should be able to make a profit, even if you loose 1 dropship, provided you pull your weight or win! I make my python fairly cheap at 400k. That's 80k of modules (give or take). With the reduction in small turrets which won't be any more than 20 or 25% that's 73k of modules. I don't know about you but it's pretty tricky to get 273k per match given with this swarm change most matches you'll lose it. That's why I keep suggesting 120k - 140k especially given its still much less survivable than that 70k of tank you were talking about. (Also btw average tank in Pub's is about 120k as quite a few people run std tanks) Proto dropship pilot The sandbox shooter
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 720	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:41:00 - [206] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1) Swarm speed from 50m/s to 60m/s 2) increase Swarm accelaration from 10 m/s^2 to 12m/s^2 3) reduce the turn radius of a swarm missile 5) We are also increasing the cooldown of Afterburners and Fuel injectors 7) Finally, a healthy buff to NDS eHP, somewhere close to a full proto swarm dmg (1000 eHP) I finally got around to trying the Grimsnes lately (greeting a brackers! You shot down my vehicle alt today ) so I now feel like I can give feedback on the effect of these changes on both NDS. Anyways, here's my feedback: Swarm speed and acceleration improvements will negatively affect the NDS. The NDS will likely not be able to outmaneuver swarms even after the change to turn radius, quite simply because they turn like a brick. I thus support the buff to NDS ehp. None of my fittings would become ridiculous if I added a flat 1000 hp. The Myron will get pretty insane temporary hp (8-10k depending on armament) if it dual-hardens, but that will be offset by the downtime between hardener cycles. I've seen your proposed numbers for afterburner cooldown. Full support from me. If you want to make NDS use the "wave of opportunity" design more I'd suggest adding the extra hp to the vehicle's main tank. That way they are affected by hardeners.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 2692	Posted - 2014.09.09 15:49:00 - [207] - Quote Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb.
Francois Sanchez What The French Red Whines. 104	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:17:00 - [208] - Quote Rattati, can u please check the swarm proficiency skill is applying correctly? I've just put two levels into it and I have some doubts
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 720	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:21:00 - [209] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vanilla dropships Go on and give them a try. I think they are being under-appreciated. A Myron will without failure deploy 4 heavies and two logis to any place on the map, even against multiple AV. A Grimsnes makes for a wonderful gunboat that can ferry around your heavies as a bonus.
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 3352	Posted - 2014.09.09 16:22:00 - [210] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vanilla dropships are something that needs another look. They are squishier than ADS, slower and less maneuverable to the point where I get the impression most pilots consider them expendable lunatic delivery engines. Making them more survivable feels dirty but mostly you can two-shot them. I dont get the impression most pilots consider them worth fitting fo more than it takes to get to a tower to deliver links and snipers. Unfortunately buff them too much and they become more resilient than HAVs. Which is dumb. I think regular DSes should be pretty tanky. They're a lot more balanced than HAVs, in that you need a separate gunner to do damage with them, and in their primary role as a transport vehicle, they need to be able to successfully drop people into a hot zone. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.



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