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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 16 post(s) |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
181
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Posted - 2014.09.05 17:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
1) & 2) Swarm speed increas, it only makes sense if your goal is to have every single volley from every single swarm launcher fired within 175 meters to land. regardless of distance and where they were aiming and how fast or which direction you were flying.
3) It doesn't matter whether or not swarms can turn at 90 degrees, if they are more manuerverable than a drop ship then they will still hit. You don't avoid swarms by flying behind buildings, you fly behind buildings to break the line of sight, so they cant lock on in the first place. Tanks only manage this by hugging the building or the edge of the terrain they engage behind.
By the way i wont have time to get behind a buidling because the missiles are flying faster than i am no matter what i do. So this 'balanceing move" is redundant.
4)Okay.
5) Don't have a problem with this.
6) Useless. The only counter measure to swarm launchers was speed. It doesnt matter if i'm traveling for slower longer as long as its still to slow to get away from missiles then whats the point.
7) Still useless. If swarms are being designed to take down a Assault Dropship, what makes you think a much slower ship will stand a chance. Also, the other ships are only used as elavators to get ontop of towers and rarely as transport because the WP rewards are ridiculously low. unless you get 90 % or more of your squads WPs in the minute since you dropped them off there no point in being a dedicated transport pilot. Now i got to worry about kamikazee ships with more eHP than me.
ISk price reduction. 150,000 for a fully fit ship. It seems you want the ships to be much easier to kill and much more disposable to the point where you feel every AV players has the right to shoot you down regardless of how you play. Three rounds from 1 wyrokami launcher is near certain death, heaven forbid the opossing team brings out a second one. Your trying to turn the dropship into a glorified LAV. Hell you can tank out a lav with nearly as much HP asa python. The price should reflect that.
TL;DR Still pissing on pilots and telling us its rain
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
181
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Posted - 2014.09.05 18:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Tesfa Alem wrote:I'm mad because you are buffing an underperforming weapon that couldn't do anything more than tickle me. If there's no risk, then it's overpowered. currently, there's no ADS risk vs. swarms. They're adding risk, not instawin. Your survivability drops slightly. get over it. I blame others for my performance issues
Sure theres no risk at all, we just afterburn in a mad panic to get 400 meters away as soon as ONE swarm volley hits us because you know we feel like it.
Because as we all know, dropships never get shot down, ever.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
184
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Posted - 2014.09.07 20:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Benjamin Ciscko wrote:Anmol Singh wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Atiim wrote:Change #1 would put things into a position where since the AB can still allow ADSs to out-run Swarms, any Pilot who's caught by surprise will still be able to evade, despite his failure to be aware of the situation.
In short, that wouldn't solve anything. Well, we don't want every pilot caught by surprise to just be dead, this will deter them more and reduce the ADS K/D since they are longer out of engagement. Dude, enough with the K/D bull crap. The only reason we have good K/D is because we don't die a lot. The reason we don't die a lot is because we flee at the first sight of danger. 500k isk isn't worth one kill. It's perfectly balanced then that you don't die a lot and manage to get massive amounts of kills.
Its true the top 100 killers in dust are only dropship pilots....and every match i've ever flown in or seen an ADs its usually no less than 30 kills 
I'll never understand the attitude that says "if anything escapes death its OP." I've got 2 adv Logi and a proto logi. I got ammar minmatar and caldari assault. Gallente and minmatar scout. All of the basic heavy medium and light suits suits.Ammar setinel and minmat commando Madrugars and gunlogis. All the lavs, every turret at ADV except large missiles. And of course my beloved Incubus. All of the light weapons and side arms. And i have never on a consistent basis seen dropships at the top of the kill board no matter who i fly with, gun for or see fly against me (whether on the ground or in the air). As in more than one match a day. Maybe a week. I do squad up with Judge and Evo 7, and i've seen some really good dropship pilots in my time.
Heavies and scouts dominate each match kill wise, with the odd assault suit in there and perhaps a really good blaster tank.
That mythical KD ratio of dropships is only apparent in the fact that since i dont want to loose my ship i might get, lets say ten kills in one match and maybe 7 in another. Because i'll come in take out a few troops and then spend the rest of the match afterburning away from any AV. Or i'll recal and fight it out on the ground because theres too much AV up right now. The third macth when i do lose my ship my dropship went 17 and 1 but over several matches strung out over a long period of time.
Which is what you would expect of anyone risking 500,000 isk, you should "git gud" at keeping it alive, otherwise you would not be able to afford bringing them out.
Ratattis response to me keeping my very expensive asset alive over long period of time is that 'well it should die more often"
The most popular way to do this is to make sure the only fire and forget weapon in the game is ensured a kill. Make sure our only counter measure to any AV the afterburner is nerfed. I can dance and try to make a forge gunner or rail tank or another dropship miss, which is already hard to do seeing as the incubus is physically larger than tanks. I cannot make a swarm launcer miss unless i afterburn the hell out of dodge. 3 hits will kill my ship dead. currently 2 swam hits are gaurnteed. Rattati's efforts at makeing sure the third gets me is akin to buffing the shotgun so that instead of three or four shots to kill a proto heavy it should be one shot, because heavies dont die as often as scout suits.
Its only apparent how often dropships die to those who fly them. You can't balance off of lack of kniwledge, the numbers being used to quantify how dropship are used only tell half the story. If you dont factor in the time, effort, sp and skill requred to fly the damn things let alone 'git gud' how can you tell whether it balanced or not?
Ask yourself this, should we balancy the infantry suits around the kill board? Should we balance the game soley around the KD ratio top 100 players? Or should we use numbers and experience of in equal measure?
Truth be told swarms are extremely dangerous thats why pilots run away, in the same vien that snipers are dangerous and that when under sniper fire everybody in every suits uses cover. Yet i don't see snipers calling for a reduction in infantry sprint speed to make sure you can't get to cover in time. Because it wouldnt be balanced.
Some of the ideas i can get behind, such as assault swarm variants with more range, high speed but less DPS. I cannot get behind 3 wyrokamis volleys being garunteed hits.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
188
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Posted - 2014.09.11 23:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
quote=CCP Rattati]The dark cloud wrote:When those swarm changes go trough then the ADS will become just a flying coffin and a nonfactor in every aspect. All it needs is a cloaked scout with a swarm launcher and there goes the dropship up in flames. They wont be aible to take damage and aswell not be capable to avoid it.
All right, I will bite. How does this happen, with numbers?[/quote]
My take.
I can only use my personal incubs fit for comparision. Other fits vary bu t this is how the changes will directly impact me, and pretty much anyone who doesnt have a fully kitted out proto ship.
With the maxed out tank of either an incubus or a python at Proto level, it is still inferior to a the HP of a sica or asoma with MILITIA armor or shield modiules.
My incubes with all advanced modules has 950 shield 3812 armor. heavy armor plate, light armor repair and power grid module and a basic afterburner. 4362 total. A volley from a wyrokami swarm launcher will do 1248 damage, or within 1.4 seconds if a second hits it does 2456 damage. When you factor in ten percent to armor damage bonus for the second volley (1248 +124=1372 ) it will be about 2,620 damage. A third volley makes damage dealt 3992. add 15% for profficiency 5 thats 4391 damage, and my incubus is now dead. That is without damage mods.
A Soma by comparison without any modules whatsoever has 1200 shiels and 4000 armor.
Tanking the damage to stay and slug it out in an area that has AV present simply isnt an option.
Okay what about out repping the damage? There are no armor reps that can withstand that damage in 1.4 seconds.
Hardener? This requires sacrificing a significant amount of HP. replacing the heavy plate for a light plate (not enough PG) means my HP will roughly be around 3862. 40% resistance to damage to armor, which equates to 30% comapred to the swarm launchers 10% bonus. 1248 - 30% = 874. Two volleys will do 2122 damage and reduce my HP in two volleys to 1740. More than half my HP will be gone by the time i activate it. I can tank another two volleys from swarms which sounds great. Untill you factor in damage mods and profciency which reduces the hardners effectiveness.
enh dmg mod + complex dmg mod + Prof 5 or 5% +7% + 15% = 27% meaning my hardner will only have a 3% resistance to a specced out swarm launcher in a standard suit. 1248 - 37.44 =1210 damage. 2 volleys in this case do 2458 damage and my HP will be down to 1404. 3 volleys will do 3668 damage leaving me at 194 HP, anything else that hits me will kill my incubs with a hardner dead.
So tanking damage is not an option and hardeners are barely viable against a SINGLE player. Two players are garunteed a kill if they can land 4 out of thier six volleys fired at me.
The only option left is to utilize the speed of the dropship and escape before the missiles can hit. But now you want the swarms to accellerate faster than a ship on full afterburn. so we cant run, we cant tank, and we cant harden.
Turn radius doesnt matter if missile tracking stays the same. Unless we can make them miss like we try to do with forge guns swarmers especially those of rooftops will have the advantage of seeing us first, firing first, landing 1 shot for sure, a second as we start to run away, and the third hit (the one we used to escape from with our burners)will be the final killing blow. How do you use a bulding for cover when they're on top of the thing?
Judge made an excellent vido with numbers and stats discussing how dropships utilize this speed to escape and how dropships do not escape getting hit even though they seem too. Also explains the swarm - dropship conflict very clearly. His numbers are from the DUST SDE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ
Feel free to correct my math, it's a bit rough.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
188
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Posted - 2014.09.11 23:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Atiim wrote:And could someone make a video of these "Invisible Swarms"?
I'd like to verify that these invisible swarms are actually invisible, and not just Pilots being hit from the back of the DS (where the camera angle woudn't allow them to see anyways).
Heres an entire channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/JudgeRhadamanthus/videos
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
191
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Posted - 2014.09.12 14:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
speed to 60, vs ads of 50. AB bpost is 50%, meaning ads is 75 while boosting. Dally, yes get hit, get the hell out or kill the swarmer, but getting insta hit by 3 is avoidable.
The problem is Afterburners do not increase the top speed of dropships. Afterburners only allow dropships to reach thier top speed quicker. Dropships do not move at 75 with the burner on, dropships only reach 50 much faster than a swarm launcher does.
This was demonstrated by Judge as evidenced here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=967QvZ5PPT4&list=UUy11xToip47aIW0M9TSOKrQ
With swarmer having a boosted acceleration to catch dropships in delta as well as moving 10/s faster than dropships moving at top speed then yes that trhid volley is indeed a garunteed hit.
You also mentioned dropship hovering and that they will not be able to so as they do now. Which begs the what kind of role will all dropships play then? Every dropship role from mobile cru, scanner, using gunners, being anti infantry or anti vehcile, and tranport involve hovering for a decent amount of time over any given area, and the ability to get out fast when things go south.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
194
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Posted - 2014.09.13 13:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:
The afterburner nerf has "nothing" to do with the swarm speed buff. They target two completely different things. One is purely lowering engagement (the AB) so they do not affect K/D at all. The other is making it possible to actually kill ADS's.
Second, noone has demonstrated that the ADS will get hit by 3 swarms, mathematically. Just anecdotal theories.
I am working on a few charts to demonstrate why 1) the current situation is completely unacceptable, and 2) the proposal is the minimum acceptable change.
I also see that the most common complaint is that because of speed, there is no escape. Everyone knows that the best way to avoid the third swarm is to put terrain and buildings between you and the Swarm Launcher to avoid the lock, not to actually twist and turn to "fool" the missiles themselves, Top Gun style. Second of all, the lock on time and acceleration, coupled with AB is a nonlinear problem. It is not enough to say 60 is bigger than 55, thus 3 swarms hit.
Not before you get out of swarm max range.
Manoeuver out of sight so the third lock doesn't happen.
I look forward to the charts. To boil things down, everything we are debating over is under what circumstances swarms should land the third volley. I haven' seen it disputed that dropships cant tank it or harden against it. Its either a race or utilize cover. As you say, we wont be able to out manouver them either.
Sorry but in terms of a race to get to 400 meters since 60>50 yes it will get anywhere we are heading towards, (cover or redline) faster than we can. Correct me if i'm wrong but swarms do not explode at 400 meters, 400 meters is how far a swarm can travel in a straight line in the 9 seconds that they are in the air. Which does make me wonder if we are incidentally increasing the swarms max range? 9 x 50 = 400, so wouldnt it become 540M in 9 seconds? If true, then good luck pilots.
In terms of cover, yes dropships can use buildings ascover to approach a swarmer on top of a tower but not if they are on on the ground. If its a socket where there are many buildings (i.e map with the rings) around then only at high risk to ships themselves due to collision damage with the buildings themselves.
I haven't seen any dispute that the first swarm hit is (in the majority of cases) the first indication of swarmers targeting your ship. With swarm lock on time being 1.4 seconds this gives the dropship a window of 2.8 seconds between the second and the third volle being fired at you. This gives a dropship a window of 2.8 seconds to find something to hide behind before the swarmer loses his 3rd lock. Losing the lock is not going to happen.
If we take missile travel time into consideration,it is practical only if the swamer ison the ground behind some sort of building, crate, or object and only if the the swarmer is at the base of tall tower socket or under a socket (the barns in tower harvest). Ashland is a good example of this, because the giant rocketship in the middle of a map can afford you some protection. Unless AV is on top of a tower, then there is nothing between you and the swarmer at all. Thats why forge gunners always go for the highest points because there is little or no cover for a dropship. We can dodge forge rounds, but we cannot dodge a tracking missile.
The majority of maps and sockets in dust however are not designed with air cover in mind. Certainly not terrain, if it were (as everybody knows??? very curious as to who said that?) then pilots wouldn't need an afterburner in the first place. Most sockets are low hanging and spread out over a wide open areas and especially in the case of maps with taller sockets there is nothing between AV and dropships except lots and lots of sky.I would like to know which maps affords terrain other than the bride map in ambush for dropship to not only hide behind but to reach before missiles hit at either 50 or 60. They are giant bowls, isn't that what enables redline sniping? The fact that the only terrain high enough to afford shots as high as the tallest sockets are at the edges of the map? Tanks manage it but I yet to see dropships flying from place to place as low as tanks.
TL;DR
We use cover to aproach AV and rarley to escape it. And never will use cover to escape Av if AV are on top of a building.Almost never in terms of swarms.
Nearly all of the maps dust do not have terrain to escape behind. Dropships dont do this because it geting flying lower affords AV a better shot at us, swarms knock us about making it easier to crash into the ground.
You may be inadverdently increasing the swarm range by boosting its speed, which i hope you look into.
I'll fly anyone all day, you can tell me where to go what cover to use we're under fire without an afterburner (to prevent my insticnt of boosting away), and we'll see what happens. Inbox me in game, its only 400,000 per ship lost. I'm going to post the same offer in the CPM1 forum.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
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