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One Eyed King wrote:

Haerr wrote:

The current system is flawed and CCP is not going to change it.
The Caldari and Gallente are, comparatively, to strong within the current system.
Squash the Caldari and Gallente and all Scouts can be Scouts.

I love this idea. Just before I was reading this, I was thinking what if we had just gotten rid of Cal precision and Gal dampening bonuses.

Maybe give Cals an slightly better range and force them to stack amps to see significant advantage (taking advantage of the extra HSs), and the Gal can stack damps to take advantage of the LSs.

Make Amar 2H, 2L at std and 3H, 3L at proto so Gal still has a dampening advantage with its slot layout (unless that would be a client side update), and throw in that bonus to ferro and/or reactive plates.

I would even be willing to give up something one my Minja. I wouldn't mind being a slower innate hacker, or have less stamina regen (that was an odd, but not unwelcome buff). I can't speak for all minja, but I would be willing to give up everything other than NK bonus to see this happen.

I am sure Appia will wake up and tell me I am crazy, but something like this might bring be back to the actual game.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Haerr Legio DXIV 824	Posted - 2014.06.13 16:24:00 - [15421] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: The table is fine but the bonus to the caldari only ever matter when it puts on 3cPEs, it would be less awkward to remove the precision bonuses to the CalScout and the GalLogi and replace them with something else. That's what Iggy was saying, but it wasn't what I see ... I see is a cPE(2) Warden "keeping Scouts honest" by detecting Scouts who only run one Damp. And a cPE(3+) Warden further specializing into the role of Scout Sniffer / Hunter. If a CalScout doesn't wish to be a Warden, he can certainly run Shields or Damage Amps. Are you saying we should tie his bonus to Base Precision instead of Precision Enhancers? I was messing around with the numbers yesterday and a bit today, it's just that it would take me more time than I am willing to spend to figure out a halfway decent suggestion. If we can agree on that this is what we want: All scouts: 3cPDs or 2cPDs+pCF - beats - 3+cPEs // focused scanner 2cPDs or 1cPD+pCF - beats- 2cPEs 1cPD or pCF - beats - 1cPE 0PD - beats - 0PE Then we can let CCP figure the numbers. I think it would be easier to find the numbers if we removed the precision bonuses to CalScout and GalLogi. Any how I'll link the selfsorting table so you guys can play around with it too: Auto sorting & auto colouring scan table. User guide: Make a copy of it. Approve the script to run before changing things. Tools -> Script editorGÇª -> Run Go to the 'input' sheet. Change a number that has a black background. Go to the 'table' sheet and check out what happened. Notes: The sheet names are used in the script so if you change their names you will break the script. Google Docs: LINK
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1786	Posted - 2014.06.13 16:29:00 - [15422] - Quote Roger that, Haerr. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Bojo The Mighty Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 3784	Posted - 2014.06.13 16:59:00 - [15423] - Quote OK Shotty I do agree with the logic that Profile Dampeners > Precision enhancers because not being detected does not give you a direct advantage if you do not have good enough senses to detect yourself. I've likened it to "Bringing everyone down to your level of blindness" Detection is a direct advantage because you know where things are. Not being seeing on the other hand does not alert you of object presence but merely removes you from being taken advantage of. If you can not be seen you can not be detected thus not at a disadvantage but at the same time you are not blessed with intelligence like precision enhancers and scanners grant. Some people prefer to know where others are at the cost that you know where they are. I prefer to make people as blind to me as they are to me if not more so. However to counter point, for future discussion-prevention (conversation condom), it is more of an advantage to see and be unseen. Quasimoto! I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1226	Posted - 2014.06.13 17:18:00 - [15424] - Quote haha you guys crack me up. Don't worry about numbers right now because the thought alone tells you its impossible. Premise: We want all scouts to have some form of immunity to scans. We want cal and gal to be warden and spook Fallacy: Warden and spook cannot exist in that situation if other scouts can stay hidden. Warden and spooks have no utility if the other scouts can perform those roles just as easily. Example: Warden fits two complex precision enhancers. Minmitar fits two complex precision enhancers. Based on gino, they both have such similar precision that it provides no utility to the cal. Why utilize the cal when the minmitar can do it just as easily and has other role bonuses to utilize? Example: Gal fits two complex damps. Warden fits two complex damps. Both have such similar profiles that having the Gal bonus provides no "real" benefit. As long as we keep the premise of all scouts can be hidden from tacnet we will never reach equilibrium. The numbers are also showing that. This is exactly why the cloak is such an important part of the equation (allows non-gal, to have wave of opportunity without too much overlap). Perhaps its better if gal scouts don't get a cloak fitting bonus. That way the cloak can go back to the original 25% bonus. Youtube
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1786	Posted - 2014.06.13 17:39:00 - [15425] - Quote @ Iggy Makes sense. If we swapped out Gallente damp bonus for a range bonus, couldn't we tone down the Cal's precision? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Nappia 928	Posted - 2014.06.13 17:44:00 - [15426] - Quote I can't figure heads from tails in how haerr's thing works and his table is just a bunch of nonsense to me the colors are just extra confusing without the a key/legend. All I see is the pattern they show. Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1786	Posted - 2014.06.13 18:00:00 - [15427] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: I can't figure heads from tails in how haerr's thing works and his table is just a bunch of nonsense to me the colors are just extra confusing without the a key/legend. All I see is the pattern they show. White = 0 Complex Profile Dampeners Green = 1 Complex Profile Dampeners Cyan = 2 Complex Profile Dampeners Blue = 3 Complex Profile Dampeners Purple = 4 Complex Profile Dampeners Pink = 5 Complex Profile Dampeners Columns A and B relate to Precision Columns C+ relate to Profile Example: Pick a precision in column B ... say 28 dB Then look over to Profile Columns to see what it scans. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Nappia 928	Posted - 2014.06.13 18:11:00 - [15428] - Quote what's the "No""STD""ADV""PRO" columns for? Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3611	Posted - 2014.06.13 18:20:00 - [15429] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: what's the "No""STD""ADV""PRO" columns for? Cloak KRRROOOOOOM
IgniteableAura The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 1227	Posted - 2014.06.13 18:41:00 - [15430] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Iggy Makes sense. If we swapped out Gallente damp bonus for a range bonus, couldn't we tone down the Cal's precision? It won't matter how we tune the precision. At the end of the day we need each scout to perform a role. If cal/gal are supposed to counter one another, the other two scouts cant really take part in that equation or we break the whole system. We would need to drop the whole idea of gals being the sneaky ones and allow all scouts to sneak. It would help the situation if thats what we want out of scouts. The precision bonuses can be tweaked for the caldari as innate and give each scout roles that align to a role. Scan range would need to stay on Cal but allow all other scouts to sacrifice one additional slot to stay hidden then cals. Allow the final counter to "remain hidden" with the use of cloak. My reasoning is that the best situation is to stay hidden, so therefore the person staying hidden should be the one sacrificing more, not the same. To stay hidden means they have the advantage = they should sacrifice more. The biggest issue relates to low slot count vs high slot count as minmitar couldn't stay hidden from a 4cPE cal under those guidelines above. The whole system is FUBAR currently, there is no elegant solution. Youtube

Appia Nappia 929	Posted - 2014.06.13 18:45:00 - [15431] - Quote i am so done. if you guys see me post more today, feel free to yell at me for not being in bed. Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1786	Posted - 2014.06.13 19:36:00 - [15432] - Quote Pretty sure I'm still getting stunlocked. SMGs, ARs, Laser Rifles Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Bojo The Mighty Chatelain Rapid Response Gallente Federation 3787	Posted - 2014.06.13 22:01:00 - [15433] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Pretty sure I'm still getting stunlocked. SMGs, ARs, Laser Rifles ... Maybe it's just the lag. What do you mean still? This problem has existed for a while now. I'm not resting in peace but rather wandering as a zombie in vengeance of no good reason
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 426	Posted - 2014.06.13 22:03:00 - [15434] - Quote So, did we already toss my min scout proposal down the garbage disposal? (Nice rhyme, amiright?) Scout V HMG
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 554	Posted - 2014.06.13 22:04:00 - [15435] - Quote Wait, so what's up with the whole faulty premise strikeouts? I'm confused. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN
Spademan the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 1889	Posted - 2014.06.13 22:28:00 - [15436] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Wait, so what's up with the whole faulty premise strikeouts? I'm confused. Honestly, I've got no idea. Edit: I'm now trying to document each time my Corp tag changes. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 555	Posted - 2014.06.13 22:56:00 - [15437] - Quote Bojo The Mighty wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Pretty sure I'm still getting stunlocked. SMGs, ARs, Laser Rifles ... Maybe it's just the lag. What do you mean still? This problem has existed for a while now. Ratty said they'd fixed it with the most recent patch. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1791	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:09:00 - [15438] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Wait, so what's up with the whole faulty premise strikeouts? I'm confused. Haerr indicated that his numbers were off, ergo gino no go :-) We'll likely be better off sticking to point-by-point feedback, rather than putting together a master plan, pitching it as a community, then having Gav tell Rattati "yeah, everything they said plus a 50% bonus to KinCats for Minmatar so I can has fastest." (Half Jokes) Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spademan the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 1890	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:36:00 - [15439] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bayeth Mal wrote: Wait, so what's up with the whole faulty premise strikeouts? I'm confused. Haerr indicated that his numbers were off, ergo gino no go :-) We'll likely be better off sticking to point-by-point feedback, rather than putting together a master plan, pitching it as a community, then having Gav tell Rattati "yeah, everything they said plus a 50% bonus to KinCats for Minmatar so I can has fastest." (Half Jokes) Joking aside, I think the masterplan is a great idea. Needs refinement maybe, but what's happening is a great thing. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1975	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:51:00 - [15440] - Quote Haerr wrote: The current system is flawed and CCP is not going to change it. The Caldari and Gallente are, comparatively, to strong within the current system. Squash the Caldari and Gallente and all Scouts can be Scouts. . I love this idea. Just before I was reading this, I was thinking what if we had just gotten rid of Cal precision and Gal dampening bonuses. Maybe give Cals an slightly better range and force them to stack amps to see significant advantage (taking advantage of the extra HSs), and the Gal can stack damps to take advantage of the LSs. Make Amar 2H, 2L at std and 3H, 3L at proto so Gal still has a dampening advantage with its slot layout (unless that would be a client side update), and throw in that bonus to ferro and/or reactive plates. I would even be willing to give up something one my Minja. I wouldn't mind being a slower innate hacker, or have less stamina regen (that was an odd, but not unwelcome buff). I can't speak for all minja, but I would be willing to give up everything other than NK bonus to see this happen. I am sure Appia will wake up and tell me I am crazy, but something like this might bring be back to the actual game. This is how a minja feels

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1791	Posted - 2014.06.13 23:59:00 - [15441] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Haerr wrote: The current system is flawed and CCP is not going to change it. The Caldari and Gallente are, comparatively, to strong within the current system. Squash the Caldari and Gallente and all Scouts can be Scouts. . I love this idea. Just before I was reading this, I was thinking what if we had just gotten rid of Cal precision and Gal dampening bonuses. Maybe give Cals an slightly better range and force them to stack amps to see significant advantage (taking advantage of the extra HSs), and the Gal can stack damps to take advantage of the LSs. Make Amar 2H, 2L at std and 3H, 3L at proto so Gal still has a dampening advantage with its slot layout (unless that would be a client side update), and throw in that bonus to ferro and/or reactive plates. I would even be willing to give up something one my Minja. I wouldn't mind being a slower innate hacker, or have less stamina regen (that was an odd, but not unwelcome buff). I can't speak for all minja, but I would be willing to give up everything other than NK bonus to see this happen. I am sure Appia will wake up and tell me I am crazy, but something like this might bring be back to the actual game. We're in a race to the bottom, and we're the ones driving! Our natural inclination is to "nerf the frontrunner" ... as Cross wisely observed, this has a spiral effect. Let's say we convinced Rattati to "squash Gal and Cal". Meanwhile, Logibro makes Nova Knifes awesome and suddenly, everyone's a Minmatar Scout. What then? Do we buff Gal and Cal or do we nerf Minmatar? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Spademan the unholy legion of darkstar DARKSTAR ARMY 1890	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:11:00 - [15442] - Quote I just want the nerfing to stop and be replaced with buffing I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2903	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:26:00 - [15443] - Quote the words sort things so do Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1792	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:32:00 - [15444] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: the words sort things so do In addition to Mathematics, Appia is also well-versed in Yoda-Speak. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1976	Posted - 2014.06.14 00:47:00 - [15445] - Quote @ shotty I totally get seeing where things are going. My thoughts were a general opinion. I personally think bringing up the assault class will help a lot overall as well. I just know that shared scanning is here to stay, and as things stand I can't dampen enough to do anything about it. Maybe Rattati will have some magic cure, but seeing what happened with the cloaks, I feel like it may end up just being the minmatar disproportionately feeling the brunt of the changes. Maybe they just assume if they are going to make certain groups pay, they limit their damage by singling out one small group to anger rather than multiple larger groups. This is how a minja feels
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3612	Posted - 2014.06.14 01:27:00 - [15446] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: the words sort things so do they peels joy did? KRRROOOOOOM
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2906	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:04:00 - [15447] - Quote what the hell did I even write. I'm kinda sick right now, drifting in and out of lucidness Oh, i got it! "Where did Rattati post he was doing an overhaul on modules?" the words = what did he say Sort = overhaul, as in put together or fix things = modules so do = I want to see it. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Gavr1Io Pr1nc1p 429	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:13:00 - [15448] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bayeth Mal wrote: Wait, so what's up with the whole faulty premise strikeouts? I'm confused. Haerr indicated that his numbers were off, ergo gino no go :-) We'll likely be better off sticking to point-by-point feedback, rather than putting together a master plan, pitching it as a community, then having Gav tell Rattati "yeah, everything they said plus a 50% bonus to KinCats for Minmatar so I can has fastest." (Half Jokes) Hahaha gosh darn it! My master plan foiled once again! Scout V HMG
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1978	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:24:00 - [15449] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: what the hell did I even write. I'm kinda sick right now, drifting in and out of lucidness Oh, i got it! "Where did Rattati post he was doing an overhaul on modules?" the words = what did he say Sort = overhaul, as in put together or fix things = modules so do = I want to see it. Is it bad this makes sense now? This is how a minja feels
Appia Nappia 935	Posted - 2014.06.14 02:31:00 - [15450] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: what the hell did I even write. I'm kinda sick right now, drifting in and out of lucidness Oh, i got it! "Where did Rattati post he was doing an overhaul on modules?" the words = what did he say Sort = overhaul, as in put together or fix things = modules so do = I want to see it. Is it bad this makes sense now? No, it means you understand my fever rattled mind. yes, because it means you're almost as crazy as me Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.



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