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Brokerib wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

I've convinced myself that CalScouts scanning MinScouts is a good thing:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2199680#post2199680

Get in here guys, help me fix my thinking.

My 2isk Shotty.

I'm more than happy for the Cal to be able to scan the Min/Amarr, but at an balanced loss of modules. Currently I need 2 dampeners to beat a single precision Cal, 3 dampeners to be a dual precision Cal, and cannot beat a triple or quad stacked Cal. I have to lose all lows to beat a Cal who is losing half their highs and have to run Proto with only dampeners if I see an organised squad on the other team.

If the balance was that the Cal needed a greater number of modules, then I would be much happier. So a Cal would need 2 precision enhancers (even if one is a basic module) to beat me with one damp, three to beat me with two, and four to beat me with 3. In this instance, a Cal can always see me, there's no way to avoid a 4 x precision Cal, but they need to give up as much as I do to get there. In that instance the Cal retains their ability to see everything except the Gal, but it will only be run as a specialised fit for specific purposes, not as a general fit (you're not going to see beyond a dual stacked Cal in Pubs). Much as my dampened fit would go back to being for when I see Cal scouts on the field and I can run single dampened fits as my general fit, freeing up lows to actually Minja.

Haven't done the math to work out what numbers are needed, but that's a balance I could get behind.

o7

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Haerr Legio DXIV 782	Posted - 2014.06.08 21:44:00 - [15061] - Quote Auto sorting & auto colouring scan table. User guide: Make a copy of it. Approve the script to run before changing things. Tools -> Script editorGÇª -> Run Go to the 'input' sheet. Change a number that has a black background. Go to the 'table' sheet and check out what happened. Notes: The sheet names are used in the script so if you change their names you will break the script. Google Docs: LINK slowdown on hit...
Haerr Legio DXIV 782	Posted - 2014.06.08 21:45:00 - [15062] - Quote I really like the idea of removing the dampening bonus for the GalScout. If a dampening bonus is in the game it should be to scouts as a role and not to a specific racial suit. slowdown on hit...
Appia Nappia 885	Posted - 2014.06.08 22:20:00 - [15063] - Quote Haerr wrote: I really like the idea of removing the dampening bonus for the GalScout. If a dampening bonus is in the game it should be to scouts as a role and not to a specific racial suit. well, it was in 1.7. But they just gave us that bonus as an innate base number. All the Scout balance problems come around form that damn gal-Logi AS precision bonus. Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 532	Posted - 2014.06.08 22:41:00 - [15064] - Quote Spademan wrote: Bayeth Mal wrote: mollerz wrote: For you PS4 owners.. war thunder is ******* awesome. awesome. I'm having a bast.. free 2 play as well. I played it for a few weeks, pretty fun, had some epic moments doing dive bombs with a fighter on my tail. Decent way to waste an afternoon but really couldn't take it that seriously. I'm only up to tier 2, I found you can't squad with people too much higher a level than you or you only get pulled up into their class and get stomped. I'm on my phone and don't know my PSN off by heart, I posted it down stairs in the leaving dust thread. Feel free to add me and we can rule the skies. Or ground even, it's got Tanks too, doesn't it? Currently it's just air combat, their plan is to include player controlled tanks and ships as well. I don't know how well that'll work, its pretty noticable how ugly the textures get the closer you are to the ground. Heading over to Destiny Beta and a few others Hit me up for Skype and PSN
Appia Nappia 887	Posted - 2014.06.08 23:16:00 - [15065] - Quote Shotty, it seems, has turned to the dark side of EZ mode scans :( Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1526	Posted - 2014.06.08 23:20:00 - [15066] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: Shotty, it seems, has turned to the dark side of EZ mode scans :( Devil's Advocate. We're making progress, and you're looking good. So turn that frown upside down :-) Edit: Still not 100% convinced that your way is the best way. Alternatives always exist. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1332	Posted - 2014.06.08 23:47:00 - [15067] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I've convinced myself that CalScouts scanning MinScouts is a good thing: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2199680#post2199680 Get in here guys, help me fix my thinking. My 2isk Shotty. I'm more than happy for the Cal to be able to scan the Min/Amarr, but at an balanced loss of modules. Currently I need 2 dampeners to beat a single precision Cal, 3 dampeners to be a dual precision Cal, and cannot beat a triple or quad stacked Cal. I have to lose all lows to beat a Cal who is losing half their highs and have to run Proto with only dampeners if I see an organised squad on the other team. If the balance was that the Cal needed a greater number of modules, then I would be much happier. So a Cal would need 2 precision enhancers (even if one is a basic module) to beat me with one damp, three to beat me with two, and four to beat me with 3. In this instance, a Cal can always see me, there's no way to avoid a 4 x precision Cal, but they need to give up as much as I do to get there. In that instance the Cal retains their ability to see everything except the Gal, but it will only be run as a specialised fit for specific purposes, not as a general fit (you're not going to see beyond a dual stacked Cal in Pubs). Much as my dampened fit would go back to being for when I see Cal scouts on the field and I can run single dampened fits as my general fit, freeing up lows to actually Minja. Haven't done the math to work out what numbers are needed, but that's a balance I could get behind. o7 Knowledge is power
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3500	Posted - 2014.06.08 23:51:00 - [15068] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I've convinced myself that CalScouts scanning MinScouts is a good thing: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2199680#post2199680 Get in here guys, help me fix my thinking. Going to toss a hypothetical battle at you Assume teams on Coms Team A Comprised of anything you want and One Cal scout per squad Team B Comprised of same as Team A, but with Minja and no Cal scouts. Hows that going to go? Really I would like to just see them add an Active Dampener. Make it a Cloak Variant, with Dampening bonus tiered and no Invisibility. Let us have limited opportunity to Damp regardless of suit. KRRROOOOOOM
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3500	Posted - 2014.06.09 00:12:00 - [15069] - Quote Double Posting Like a Kaiser (I'm old school) The Minja currently sits in a state where we were with Scanner Spam We are currently facing 360-¦ scans that we reasonably cannot beat. Sound familiar? Couple differences though, like no warning that the Cal scout is about, and less chance of seeing them on TAC than of seeing the Med Frames of dubious origin who packed those scanners. Constant Active time with no downtime (Okay with the cool down cycle and active time of Scanner 514 it was pretty much permanent as well). Don't go to the Dark Side ShottyGÇª I will hunt you down and ineffectually throw my 200ehp clones at you until you die of regret XD KRRROOOOOOM
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3501	Posted - 2014.06.09 00:26:00 - [15070] - Quote Core Dampener Cloak Because I think it should be a Minmatar adaptation of the Cloak While offering an effective blocking of electronic signature it does not reduce the users visibility. Basic Core Dampener Cloak - 10% reduction to Profile for 10 Seconds Advanced Core Dampener Cloak - 15% reduction to Profile for 15 Seconds Proto Core Dampener Cloak - 25% reduction to Profile for 20 Seconds Fitting cost should be lower than the Cloak. It and as an active piece of equipment could not be active at the same time as the Invisibility cloak, leaving the choice as what to run or what to activate if you chose to fit both. Tripple posting like a Kaiser? KRRROOOOOOM

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1335	Posted - 2014.06.09 01:32:00 - [15071] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Tripple posting like a Kaiser? TPLAK? Only surpassed by the fabled QPLAK. Knowledge is power
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1530	Posted - 2014.06.09 01:44:00 - [15072] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I've convinced myself that CalScouts scanning MinScouts is a good thing: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2199680#post2199680 Get in here guys, help me fix my thinking. My 2isk Shotty. I'm more than happy for the Cal to be able to scan the Min/Amarr, but at an balanced loss of modules. Currently I need 2 dampeners to beat a single precision Cal, 3 dampeners to be a dual precision Cal, and cannot beat a triple or quad stacked Cal. I have to lose all lows to beat a Cal who is losing half their highs and have to run Proto with only dampeners if I see an organised squad on the other team. If the balance was that the Cal needed a greater number of modules, then I would be much happier. So a Cal would need 2 precision enhancers (even if one is a basic module) to beat me with one damp, three to beat me with two, and four to beat me with 3. In this instance, a Cal can always see me, there's no way to avoid a 4 x precision Cal, but they need to give up as much as I do to get there. In that instance the Cal retains their ability to see everything except the Gal, but it will only be run as a specialised fit for specific purposes, not as a general fit (you're not going to see beyond a dual stacked Cal in Pubs). Much as my dampened fit would go back to being for when I see Cal scouts on the field and I can run single dampened fits as my general fit, freeing up lows to actually Minja. Haven't done the math to work out what numbers are needed, but that's a balance I could get behind. o7 Please correct me if I'm wrong. By Haerr's Alpha Table, a non-Gal Scout with 3 damps (16dB) will beat a 4 precision CalScout (15 dB), provided his cloak is prototype and turned on (14 dB). When his cloak is turned off, however, the CalScout will spot him. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
Appia Nappia 887	Posted - 2014.06.09 01:47:00 - [15073] - Quote that is correct Secretly Appia Vibbia If you can read my signature... I'm on the wrong alt.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1530	Posted - 2014.06.09 02:17:00 - [15074] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: that is correct And by Appia's Proposed Table ... A Scout with three damps (16dB) will always beat the 4cPE CalScout (17 dB). A 4cPE CalScout (17 dB) will always detect a Scout running two or fewer damps (17 dB). A 3cPE CalScout (19 dB) will always detect a Scout running one or fewer damps (21 dB). A 2cPE CalScout (22 dB) will detect a Scout running 1 damp (24 dB), unless he's proto cloaked (21 dB). A 1cPE CalScout (27 dB) will only detect Scouts without damps. Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1848	Posted - 2014.06.09 02:23:00 - [15075] - Quote On my minja: To beat a Cal with 1 CE, I would need 2 CDs or 1 CD and a proto cloak active. With 2 CEs, I need 3 CDs or 2 CDs and a proto cloak active. With 3 CEs, I need 3 CDs and at least an adv cloak active. With 4 CEs, I need 3 CDs and a proto cloak active. This requires more of a sacrifice from my end on every level. I am not as familiar with the cal (having only played it for one clone in one game so far), but if I am running my std minja, the 1 CE forces me to use all my lows, and if I opt for trying to fit a proto cloak, I no longer have the CPU or PG left to fill up much else of the suit, which would more likely than not leave me with a module slot unused. Not to mention that we are forced to overlook the actual advantages of suit. No kincats, no codebreakers, because we have to dampen. Cals can still throw on armor and other items. I would be curious to see if they could outhack or run faster than a Minja on top of that, though I haven't run it through protofits because it just came to me. Either way, some adjustment needs to be made. Heck, even giving the tied scanning mechanics go the dampeners way would help. Edit: Damn you for beating me to the punch Shotty!! Edit No 2: This is based on the current system, so nm The REAL Internet King
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 1531	Posted - 2014.06.09 02:51:00 - [15076] - Quote Anyone opposed to changing MinScout layout from 3:3 to 2:4? All the good Scout stuff is in the lows ... ewar, codebreakers, biotics, cpu/pg chips. And the MinScout could finally claim its long-desired title ... fastest of all Scouts. Thoughts? Shoot scout with yes... - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1851	Posted - 2014.06.09 03:01:00 - [15077] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Anyone opposed to changing MinScout layout from 3:3 to 2:4? All the good Scout stuff is in the lows ... ewar, codebreakers, biotics, cpu/pg chips. And the MinScout could finally claim its long-desired title ... fastest of all Scouts. Thoughts? It wouldn't bother me. The REAL Internet King
LeGoose SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 287	Posted - 2014.06.09 03:16:00 - [15078] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Anyone opposed to changing MinScout layout from 3:3 to 2:4? All the good Scout stuff is in the lows ... ewar, codebreakers, biotics, cpu/pg chips. And the MinScout could finally claim its long-desired title ... fastest of all Scouts. Thoughts? I would be fine with it, but we would need a significant PG buff to make any viable fits. Especially considering we need a PG buff now and we only have 3 lows. Click it! I dare you...
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1336	Posted - 2014.06.09 03:41:00 - [15079] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Anyone opposed to changing MinScout layout from 3:3 to 2:4? All the good Scout stuff is in the lows ... ewar, codebreakers, biotics, cpu/pg chips. And the MinScout could finally claim its long-desired title ... fastest of all Scouts. Thoughts? I'd prefer to stick with 3/3, even if it means i can't avoid the Cal. The Min currently suits in a middle ground when it come to EWAR versatility, and is the only scout that can approach the Cal when it comes to precision. Knowledge is power
Jaceon Pale-eye OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 107	Posted - 2014.06.09 03:54:00 - [15080] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In this context, it kinda seems like we're asking the CalScout to "go all in" or "go home". The CalScout can cry me a river. How about the fact that the existence of the CalScout means staying off TacNet means you MUST have 3 lows (i.e., you must be running a proto Minja suit) and you MUST have all of those lows filled with Complex Damps and you MUST be using the Proto cloak. There are still those off us coming into the game new who are not even capable of running CDamps, let alone Proto scout suits. Add to this that even if I do all of that, if I want any kind of eHP then I must forgo PEs and run blind as well. Unless I'm missing the entirety of the picture, it looks to me that the Minmatar scout is currently the only one who has to run with no HP mods at all in order to hide from OR see anything. Gal can see, hide, and tank armor. Cal can see and tank armor. Amarr... okay, maybe they're brightly glowing blind suits as well, but they don't have two bonuses that require working closely with the enemy (knives and hacking), so they don't really sacrifice anything by tanking the hell out of those suits (as far as I can tell, anyway). I'm still getting my kills and I'm still getting my point hacks off, but it's frustrating as hell that if there's even one CalScout on the map, I need to be acutely aware of where s/he is at all times or I'm useless to my squad and team. I was looking forward to the fact that when I'm running proto, it'll be better... but I've learned from reading these threads and looking at the numbers posted that this will not, in fact, be the case. I'll still be as visible as a commando (for all intents and purposes) and as blind as a fedo. Vote Appia Vibbia for CPM1 or I'll stab you in the neck! (ingame m8 m8 o7 o7)

Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1336	Posted - 2014.06.09 04:20:00 - [15081] - Quote Jaceon Pale-eye wrote: Brokerib wrote: I'd prefer to stick with 3/3, even if it means i can't avoid the Cal. The Min currently suits in a middle ground when it come to EWAR versatility, and is the only scout that can approach the Cal when it comes to precision. I assume that's running at least 2 top-tier PEs? Because at Adv level, I see very little in the way of armor tanked shotgun scouts running 2x Adv PE. Tonight I'll try running 3x Adv PE, but I'm hesitant to lose my sidearm damage mod. Yep, and you need at least one Proto range amp along with it to make it worthwhile. Unsurprisingly, EWAR, along with pretty much everything else, only comes into it's own at the proto level. If you don't have precision to enhanced, then you're very limited. Two advanced PE with leve 3 precision won't even let you see a single damped proto scout. Advanced range amps aren't bad though. Leave of the PE's an put on a ranged amp and you'll be fine against mediums or heavies. But proto scouts are effectively unscannable to you at the moment. Knowledge is power
Jaceon Pale-eye OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 107	Posted - 2014.06.09 04:40:00 - [15082] - Quote I don't mind not seeing the proto scouts - it's not seeing the Adv scouts that irks me. I can't tell you how many times I've been shotgunned (with or without my cloak active) by some red in a STD or ADV Cal or an Adv Gal suit or even the Dragonfly or Hunter suits. The Cals I never get the drop on, but when I'm plinking at the Gals with my CR, that shield melts like it wasn't there, and then I die with them at half armor... I don't have the best gun game in DUST, but you'd think that if the guy was all plates and no damps, even 2 Adv PE should spot him. Anyway, this is why I don't even run cloaks anymore except in very specific situations (i.e., need to cover some ground and I just got sniped trying to cross it). My current go-to fit is CR, knives, PEs and a Sidearm dmd mod, all damps in the lows, and RE + Uplink. If the PEs are really so useless at Adv level, even with 3 of 'em, and if damping at Enh level is equally hopeless, I might throw 2x shield extender, codebreaker and cardiac in the lows... I dunno. Feeling very meh about the whole bloody thing. Need to stab me a proto sentinel and his logibro to make the pain stop. Vote Appia Vibbia for CPM1 or I'll stab you in the neck! (ingame m8 m8 o7 o7)
Llast 326 An Arkhos 3510	Posted - 2014.06.09 05:13:00 - [15083] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Anyone opposed to changing MinScout layout from 3:3 to 2:4? All the good Scout stuff is in the lows ... ewar, codebreakers, biotics, cpu/pg chips. And the MinScout could finally claim its long-desired title ... fastest of all Scouts. Thoughts? Fast KniferGÇª 68PG for four Complex Kinz and a Ish NKGÇª that leaves 9 pg for everything elseGÇª with maxed out Engineering Problem with the Min is not slot layout. Everything that the suit is encouraged to use is not cost effective on the suit. The Mods that are cost effective don't play to the strengths and are done better by the suits that are designed for those strengths. PG needs a buff EWAR needs to not function on static numbers but fluctuating numbers. Imagine if instead of dampeners we had Profile Stabilizers that lessened the fluctuation of your Profile on actionsGÇª KRRROOOOOOM
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5151	Posted - 2014.06.09 05:28:00 - [15084] - Quote Brokerib wrote: Llast 326 wrote: Tripple posting like a Kaiser? TPLAK? Only surpassed by the fabled QPLAK. Too bad I can't Omni-PLAK Ghost Kaisar wrote: Oh, wait. YES I CAN Ghost Kaisar wrote: GOML PLEBIANS Okay, I'm done. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Ghost Kaisar The Last of DusT. General Tso's Alliance 5151	Posted - 2014.06.09 05:32:00 - [15085] - Quote Also: Slot Layout isn't the Problem of the Min Scout It's the fact that Cal Scouts force every scout on the field to run 2-3x damps on top of cloaks. That, and PG. Fix those two problems, and the Min Scout will be A-Okay in my book. Headed to Destiny, To Hell with CCP PSN: EVL_Elgost105 RIP Dust514 05/02/14 GG CCP
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1336	Posted - 2014.06.09 06:18:00 - [15086] - Quote Jaceon Pale-eye wrote: I don't mind not seeing the proto scouts - it's not seeing the Adv scouts that irks me. I can't tell you how many times I've been shotgunned (with or without my cloak active) by some red in a STD or ADV Cal or an Adv Gal suit or even the Dragonfly or Hunter suits. The Cals I never get the drop on, but when I'm plinking at the Gals with my CR, that shield melts like it wasn't there, and then I die with them at half armor... I don't have the best gun game in DUST, but you'd think that if the guy was all plates and no damps, even 2 Adv PE should spot him. Anyway, this is why I don't even run cloaks anymore except in very specific situations (i.e., need to cover some ground and I just got sniped trying to cross it). My current go-to fit is CR, knives, PEs and a Sidearm dmd mod, all damps in the lows, and RE + Uplink. If the PEs are really so useless at Adv level, even with 3 of 'em, and if damping at Enh level is equally hopeless, I might throw 2x shield extender, codebreaker and cardiac in the lows... I dunno. Feeling very meh about the whole bloody thing. Need to stab me a proto sentinel and his logibro to make the pain stop. The level of the suit doesn't meant they're not proto. I run advanced suits for the most part, with 1 or 2 complex damps. I even have a standard suit with two proto damps, a proto shield extender and a proto PE. Because of the limited increase in fittings and modules there's very few benefits to running proto except in specific instances (avoid Cal scouts for instance...). If you've got enough levels in passive skills you can fit majority proto modules on an advanced suit. Knowledge is power
Haerr Legio DXIV 782	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:34:00 - [15087] - Quote I have two questions / discussion points: How do you guys feel about adding falloff to scan GÇPScan PrecisionGÇ£? How would you guys feel about differentiating between: MiniMap: ((Hidden)) [Personal] Blip [>Shared] Blip [Personal] Direction Arrow [>Shared] Direction Arrow HUD: ((Hidden)) [Personal] Chevron out of line of sight [>Shared] Chevron out of line of sight [Personal] Chevron in line of sight [>Shared] Chevron in line of sight Maybe limit something depending on +/- dB or per scanner type? Other suggestions? slowdown on hit...
Haerr Legio DXIV 782	Posted - 2014.06.09 09:38:00 - [15088] - Quote My pet peeve, and the one thing I truly take offence by, is [>Shared] Chevron both out of line of sight and in line of sight. Edit: Double posting like a Kaisar. slowdown on hit...
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1337	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:13:00 - [15089] - Quote Haerr wrote: I have two questions / discussion points: How do you guys feel about adding falloff to GÇPScan PrecisionGÇ£? How would you guys feel about differentiating between: MiniMap: ((Hidden)) [Personal] Blip [>Shared] Blip [Personal] Direction Arrow [>Shared] Direction Arrow HUD: ((Hidden)) [Personal] Chevron out of line of sight [>Shared] Chevron out of line of sight [Personal] Chevron in line of sight [>Shared] Chevron in line of sight Maybe limit something depending on +/- dB or per scanner type? Other suggestions? I'd love more depth and variety in EWAR, based on difference in scan/precision/distance etc. But we're not going to see it in Dust... Knowledge is power
voidfaction Void of Faction 265	Posted - 2014.06.09 10:20:00 - [15090] - Quote Haerr wrote: My pet peeve, and the one thing I truly take offence by, is [>Shared] Chevron both out of line of sight and in line of sight. Edit: Double posting like a Kaisar. Mine would be shared vision peroid. I think shared vision should cost a module slot so it's not given/forced freely and one has to give up something to have it. With that I would not care about the [>Shared] anything. Don't want to use a mod slot for [>Shared] precise instant tac-net then use your mic Make it a high slot too



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