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Quil Evrything wrote:

you could say this is a reply to both Ghost and Krom....

Krom Ganesh wrote:

@Quil

There is nothing wrong with an assault scout or a slayer logi as long as they don't outperform the suits that are intended for that role.

The problem being, of course.. that they do.
Its bad enough when a "logi" can do that. but when a "light" suit can do that?? Come on, something's wrong.

A proto bricktanked scout, strongly outperforms a basic, and probably even an all-adv , assault suit, for assault purposes.

Does anyone actually disagree with that?

If you do... you're wrong, so shaddup Big smile

Numbers (as verified by protofits.com)

Adv caldari assault, adv shields, adv armor
shield 371, armor 392
movement 5.0 sprint 7.35. shield regen 30/sec

Proto caldari scout, fully bricked complex shields complex armor:
352 shield, 384 armor.
movement 5.4, sprint 8. shield regen 50/sec !!
Invisible to most passive scans, plus active scans..
Its OWN passive scan has over twice the range, plus is actualy useful. And oh by the way will be able to fit a cloak I think..
(edit: Yup. basic shotgun, basic magsec, AND.. basic cloak. 4pg to spare.)

The difference in tank is basically 1 bullet, so negligable. The tactical differences, however, are overwhelmingly in favor of the scout.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1011	Posted - 2014.04.09 23:23:00 - [13051] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: you could say this is a reply to both Ghost and Krom.... Krom Ganesh wrote: @Quil There is nothing wrong with an assault scout or a slayer logi as long as they don't outperform the suits that are intended for that role. The problem being, of course.. that they do. Its bad enough when a "logi" can do that. but when a "light" suit can do that?? Come on, something's wrong. A proto bricktanked scout, strongly outperforms a basic, and probably even an all-adv , assault suit, for assault purposes. Does anyone actually disagree with that? If you do... you're wrong, so shaddup Numbers (as verified by protofits.com) Adv caldari assault, adv shields, adv armor shield 371, armor 392 movement 5.0 sprint 7.35. shield regen 30/sec Proto caldari scout, fully bricked complex shields complex armor: 352 shield, 384 armor. movement 5.4, sprint 8. shield regen 50/sec !! Invisible to most passive scans, plus active scans.. Its OWN passive scan has over twice the range, plus is actualy useful. And oh by the way will be able to fit a cloak I think.. (edit: Yup. basic shotgun, basic magsec, AND.. basic cloak. 4pg to spare.) The difference in tank is basically 1 bullet, so negligable. The tactical differences, however, are overwhelmingly in favor of the scout. I agree that Assaults are broken currently, but that's not a reason to break other suits to match. And keep in mind, previous to 1.8 Assaults already weren't worth playing, as Logi's had better slot allocation and equipment, while suffering no significat disadvantages. Assaults need to have their main tank HP bumped by by ~100-150, and secondary bumped by ~50-75, so they sit comfortably between the light and heavy. They also need a slot re-allocation to allow for greater versatility. My suggestion would be for Assaults to get the Logi slot layout, so Assaults have versatility in module fitting, while Logi's have versatility in equipment fitting. Along with some EHP changes, that would make them playable. Krom and Ghost have summed it up the rest pretty well, but I'd just like to add an additional. Light suits who are running assault fits should not be better than medium suits, running assault fits. I think that's an important distinction to make. I have no problems with a scout being a better assault than a medium who is running EWAR, just as I'd have no problems with a medium having better EWAR than a scout who is runnning full assault. A bit of blurring between the roles is good for diversity. But once a light eclipses mediums and start to encroach on the heavy range, then there's a problem. And that's what we have now. Knowledge is power
Brokerib Lone Wolves Club 1012	Posted - 2014.04.09 23:51:00 - [13052] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Brokerib wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Brokerib wrote: Just a thought on this. I like the idea of % based armor modules, but it does disadvantage low HP suits. And by "disadvantage", you mean... People would have to play low HP suits... as low HP suits. This is a problem?? Only to people who like abusing low hp suits to be out of their class. Ummmm...no. I'm not sure why so many scouts have a problem with it, but I think the assult scout is an entirely viable playstyle. The relevant question is not "is it viable?" Rather, "is it appropriate/balanced/fair?" Replace "assault scout" with "slayer logi",and perhaps you get the idea (Or do you abuse those too? :p ) "Slayer logi is an entirely viable playstyle". Well, of course it's "viable"(aka useful). But it's still abuse of the general class concept. Sane class grouping should be: Scouts: light, fast, low armor, high EWAR. Logis: medium everything, (with perhaps explicitly low damage), lots of EQ Assaults: lots of armor, lots of damage Heavy: ludicrous armor, ludicrous damage... stupid slow, and electronically blind. And following up again, I think it is appropriate, it's just not currently balanced. I (respectfully) disagree with your class concepts. While they do provide a reasonable general overview (with the exception of Assault. The Assault should be medium everything with lots of fitting versatility, the Logi medium everything with lots of equipment versatility, the Commando should be lots of armor lots of damage, limited equipment and fittings), they're very restricted in their scope. If we're going to lock classes down to specific archtypes, then we may as well do away with the skills system and modules and just have straight templated classes like other FPS. The point of Eve/Dust is to be able to play in the way you chose. As a visual representation. *Apologies, visual representation broken, it keeps dropping multiple spaces We currently have this: Sc Logi Ass Com Sen \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| Where scouts are able to compete at too many levels due to the way modules are setup, Logi's are still over powered compared to Assaults, and Command's are limited in their versatility. What you're talking about begins to look like this: Sc Logi Ass Com Sen \| \| \| \| \| Where every suit has a defined role that makes it difficult for them to cross over. In this situation there is no reason to play outside your pre-defined 'role', which would be an unfortunately outcome as it reduces diversity. And what I'm talking about looks something like this: Sc Logi Ass Com Sen \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| \| Where you have freedom in fitting so you can compete with other suits in their own speciality, but if they choose to fit to highlight their strenghts, then they will be more effective in that role. And just for the record, I've never played a Logi or chased FOTM. I play Minmatar scout exclusively and 90% of my fits have no additional shields or armor. Changes to force scouts into an EWAR/low HP only role will have almost no effect on me at all. But I value the ability for players to be able to run diverse fittings to suit their playstyle, without being (entirely) beholden to a pre-defined archetype. It's part of what makes Dust such an interesting game. o7 Knowledge is power
J0LLY R0G3R Dirt Nap Squad. 720	Posted - 2014.04.09 23:53:00 - [13053] - Quote I might of spec'd into rep tool. Now I have a logi scout when my team is full of heavies lol Repped more on my scout today than I think I ever did on my cal logi.. XD ++++Gimme Back my SG RoF++++ XD Indeed, chase me friend XD
Murt Lesp Leviathan Battalion 165	Posted - 2014.04.10 00:18:00 - [13054] - Quote J0LLY R0G3R wrote: I might of spec'd into rep tool. Now I have a logi scout when my team is full of heavies lol Repped more on my scout today than I think I ever did on my cal logi.. XD Going to try this now The Leviathan has Awoken and in hungers That was an Execution - Pistol Headshot Kill Sitting on a hill, ready to kill
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4095	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:22:00 - [13055] - Quote J0LLY R0G3R wrote: I might of spec'd into rep tool. Now I have a logi scout when my team is full of heavies lol Repped more on my scout today than I think I ever did on my cal logi.. XD I saw you doing that today. In squad with frost and 8213. I just start laughing like crazy, and they are all like "WTF Ghost?" "JOLLY IS RUNNING AROUND WITH A REP TOOL! HAHAHA!" I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Patrick57 6866	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:24:00 - [13056] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: In squad with 8213 I am so very sorry. Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -William Shakespeare
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4095	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:26:00 - [13057] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: you could say this is a reply to both Ghost and Krom.... The problem being, of course.. that they do. Its bad enough when a "logi" can do that. but when a "light" suit can do that?? Come on, something's wrong. A proto bricktanked scout, strongly outperforms a basic, and probably even an all-adv , assault suit, for assault purposes. Does anyone actually disagree with that? I never disagreed with it. Ghost Kaisar wrote: Problem right now is that CCP doesn't know how to balance this game well. Once the Assaults get re-balanced, hopefully the med frames will get their strength back, and the differences between the two will be become noticeable. Right now, old Assault frames have taken up scout because the Scout suit can make a better assault suit than the med frame. It IS abuse and role theft, but they really have no choice in the matter. Either play in a gimped suit or use the best possible alternative. My post was saying that an Assault scout isn't a bad thing. The bad thing is that the assault scout is better at assaulting than the Assault is. It IS role theft. But it WILL get fixed in time. And when that time comes, I will stand by what I said right here. Assault scouts in themselves are not bad. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4095	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:27:00 - [13058] - Quote Patrick57 wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: In squad with 8213 I am so very sorry. Still better than xSaphir3 Dear god. 2 minutes in, and he has already started talking about someones butthole. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4095	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:28:00 - [13059] - Quote Brokerib wrote: And what I'm talking about looks something like this: Sc ____XXXX__________ Logi ____XXXX________ Ass ______XXXX_______ Com _______XXXX_____ Sen _________XXXX___ Me likey that graph. Once again though, makes too much sense. It'll never happen I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Patrick57 6866	Posted - 2014.04.10 01:31:00 - [13060] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Patrick57 wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: In squad with 8213 I am so very sorry. Still better than xSaphir3 Dear god. 2 minutes in, and he has already started talking about someones butthole. XD Hell is empty and all the devils are here. -William Shakespeare

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2056	Posted - 2014.04.10 02:15:00 - [13061] - Quote Quil, in your comparison to ADV assault to PRO Scout, mind if I quote you in a feedback thread? Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 1020	Posted - 2014.04.10 02:22:00 - [13062] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Quil, in your comparison to ADV assault to PRO Scout, mind if I quote you in a feedback thread? Is this ironic quote posting, or real qoute posting, because of this is for real, I will officially not know what is going on anymore. I need things to make sense, and this is not working for me. Looking for the scout hangout?
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2056	Posted - 2014.04.10 02:57:00 - [13063] - Quote Real quote posting. I don't entirely agree with his point of view, but it is a valid comparison. I want to bring up the point of overlapping fields of expertise when tiers are brought into the equation. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4099	Posted - 2014.04.10 03:50:00 - [13064] - Quote So, my CEO wants me to spec into Cal scout to act as a mobile scanner for float squad. I need to get the Scout (Obviously) and to get range and precision from 3 to 5. That is a 4,216,080 SP investment. This is gonna take awhile. Until then, Psuedo-Scanner Min Scout it is. Too bad I will be running around in a 200 shield scout in PC BTW Satori, GG's tonight. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
IgniteableAura Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 847	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:05:00 - [13065] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Real quote posting. I don't entirely agree with his point of view, but it is a valid comparison. I want to bring up the point of overlapping fields of expertise when tiers are brought into the equation. I actually think there is a problem with that logic. Different meta levels will cause overlap. I think it's a stretch to compare proto fits to adv fits. It's a different ball game from adv to proto. And fitting basic weaponry is actually a huge sacrifice to fit all that tank. Especially considering assaults bonuses are to weapon fitting, that means they can fit proto weapons on even adv suits with no fitting issues, Assaults need their suits upgraded. But other balance passes should not occur until the dust settles on all the frame changes. That's CCPs main issue. They fix 12 things in a balance pass and don't know what actually worked. @ghost 4mil sp will take you 3 months of capping w/o boosters. PHI Recruitment or PHIsh Tank in game Youtube
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4100	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:33:00 - [13066] - Quote IgniteableAura wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Real quote posting. I don't entirely agree with his point of view, but it is a valid comparison. I want to bring up the point of overlapping fields of expertise when tiers are brought into the equation. I actually think there is a problem with that logic. Different meta levels will cause overlap. I think it's a stretch to compare proto fits to adv fits. It's a different ball game from adv to proto. And fitting basic weaponry is actually a huge sacrifice to fit all that tank. Especially considering assaults bonuses are to weapon fitting, that means they can fit proto weapons on even adv suits with no fitting issues, Assaults need their suits upgraded. But other balance passes should not occur until the dust settles on all the frame changes. That's CCPs main issue. They fix 12 things in a balance pass and don't know what actually worked. @ghost 4mil sp will take you 3 months of capping w/o boosters. I'll run boosters for the event and boosters afterwards. Should take me a month and a half, and I could run some AUR gear if I really had to for PC Already talked to Zatara about it. We will be fine for now with the teams we are playing, but we are planning for the future. Squads need scans, and scouts have to give it to them. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1621	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:42:00 - [13067] - Quote Yeah Ghost, Cal scout is sweet for the point defense and the mobile scan platform. It's awesome w/ the 70m scan range on the ADV Cal stacking 3 PE's (Maybe a bit much, but I'm nothing if not an all-in kind of zealot in this game) and a squad of scouts in a city. Can't wait another 2 weeks to get that baby to Proto.... Double posting like a Kaiser.
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 1621	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:45:00 - [13068] - Quote Great games tonight with my fellow scouts! Appia, good to finally get in squad with you! Damn, gotta say impressive skills showing us how it's done in a militia suit! Mathppia for the win. And Parkour - great to play with R0N1N as always. Very aggressive style.... I could always find you for the squad orders just by looking for the biggest blob of red on the map and the nearest green point was usually you or Appia. Nausea - the heavy/scout man with every suit. Lethal with the SMG. Night all.... thanks for the good games. Sorry I wasted that OB trying to get that Heavy/LAV scrub... missed him anyway. Double posting like a Kaiser.
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2057	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:51:00 - [13069] - Quote Who's your CEO Ghost? Cal Scout for scanners only works in pubs. You aren't going to ever scan a scout that knows what they are doing. Gallente makes a better passive scan scout for detecting mediums because of the low slots for range amps and armor plates. Reference Haerr or my scan tables. Not worth it. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4104	Posted - 2014.04.10 04:56:00 - [13070] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Who's your CEO Ghost? Cal Scout for scanners only works in pubs. You aren't going to ever scan a scout that knows what they are doing. Gallente makes a better passive scan scout for detecting mediums because of the low slots for range amps and armor plates. It's mainly for med frames. He just wants to pick up proto damped med frames and idiot scouts who don't damp and cloak. In his words "Precision is better than range" So he wants Cal scout. Also, my skills transfer to Cal scout better. I don't got skills in armor plates The fit that I had him approve runs two complex Precisions, 2x shields, 1x Range, and 1 complex Shield regulator or damp, depending on the mood. Should get me to 18dB and 70m scan range roughly. Pretty good perma scanner for a float squad (which is where he wants me) Zatara is the CEO, you know that I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V

Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2058	Posted - 2014.04.10 05:11:00 - [13071] - Quote I didn't know he was still running the corp while being in another one. Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Ghost Kaisar Fatal Absolution Dirt Nap Squad. 4108	Posted - 2014.04.10 05:18:00 - [13072] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: I didn't know he was still running the corp while being in another one. He is in another corp for logistics purposes. That is all. He made that very clear. I got my cloak and daggers, I'm a very happy Ghost I hack at Mach V
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2173	Posted - 2014.04.10 06:02:00 - [13073] - Quote If you want to scan mediums far away, guess which suit is the best? Gallente XD 2 complex plates, 2 range amplifiers, 2 precision enhancers. Dont really need damps if youre running with a squad. Sticking together > other scouts. Alt#1 Scout gk.0 - ScR, CR, RR, PLC, SMG Alt#2 Madrugar - Ion Cannon Alt#3 Commando gk.0 - Shotgun, AR
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2059	Posted - 2014.04.10 06:13:00 - [13074] - Quote Spectral Clone wrote: If you want to scan mediums far away, guess which suit is the best? Gallente XD 2 complex plates, 2 range amplifiers, 2 precision enhancers. Dont really need damps if youre running with a squad. Sticking together > other scouts. exactly Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2174	Posted - 2014.04.10 06:15:00 - [13075] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Spectral Clone wrote: If you want to scan mediums far away, guess which suit is the best? Gallente XD 2 complex plates, 2 range amplifiers, 2 precision enhancers. Dont really need damps if youre running with a squad. Sticking together > other scouts. exactly I get it, and im a newbro scout. Well, must say that im a pretty decent theorycrafter... Its my religion. Alt#1 Scout gk.0 - ScR, CR, RR, PLC, SMG Alt#2 Madrugar - Ion Cannon Alt#3 Commando gk.0 - Shotgun, AR
Appia Vibbia Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2059	Posted - 2014.04.10 06:16:00 - [13076] - Quote Actually, 1 enhanced dampener, 1 comlex plate, 2 range amps, 2 precision enhancer, ishukone cloak field, creodron shotgun, Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol, Wiyrkomi Nanohive, and flux grenade is my choice for that style. enhaced damp + cloak = invisible to 4 cPE Cal-Scout or Gal-Logi's Focused Scanner Appia Vibbia for CPM1 AppiaVibbia(at)gmail(dot)com AKA Nappia, AKA Mathppia
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2176	Posted - 2014.04.10 06:26:00 - [13077] - Quote Appia Vibbia wrote: Actually, 1 enhanced dampener, 1 comlex plate, 2 range amps, 2 precision enhancer, ishukone cloak field, creodron shotgun, Carthum Assault Scrambler Pistol, Wiyrkomi Nanohive, and flux grenade is my choice for that style. enhaced damp + cloak = invisible to 4 cPE Cal-Scout or Gal-Logi's Focused Scanner True dat. But do you need the damp if you run CR like I do? Not sure. Speed does however affect strafe, so your fit might be the better one for CQC. Alt#1 Scout gk.0 - ScR, CR, RR, PLC, SMG Alt#2 Madrugar - Ion Cannon Alt#3 Commando gk.0 - Shotgun, AR
Django Quik Dust2Dust. 2826	Posted - 2014.04.10 07:40:00 - [13078] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Appia Vibbia wrote: Who's your CEO Ghost? Cal Scout for scanners only works in pubs. You aren't going to ever scan a scout that knows what they are doing. Gallente makes a better passive scan scout for detecting mediums because of the low slots for range amps and armor plates. It's mainly for med frames. He just wants to pick up proto damped med frames and idiot scouts who don't damp and cloak. In his words "Precision is better than range" So he wants Cal scout. Also, my skills transfer to Cal scout better. I don't got skills in armor plates The fit that I had him approve runs two complex Precisions, 2x shields, 1x Range, and 1 complex Shield regulator or damp, depending on the mood. Should get me to 18dB and 70m scan range roughly. Pretty good perma scanner for a float squad (which is where he wants me) Zatara is the CEO, you know that I don't think 1 range amp gets you to 70m scan range. If you're wanting to catch mediums and undampened scouts go Gallente - it took a bit of convincing the FC in my last PC that gal is better because you can get so much more scan range out of them. I didn't do a lot that match but I'm sure my 200m diameter scan circle in the center of the city helped my squad a lot and 2 complex precision meant I was picking up the undampened cloaked non-gal scouts too. Dedicated sidearm scout - Watch out for that headshot Scout community is the nuts
Bayeth Mal OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 306	Posted - 2014.04.10 07:54:00 - [13079] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Speaking of psuedo logi scouts... anyone thought about partially tanking up and running a repper behind a heavy? Maybe a repping hive too. On a proto gal scout you could run 2x plates, 2x range amps and 2x shields with weapons of choice whatever you can fit after that. You'd be providing long range scanning to like ~60m (I forget the exact range from 2 amps). You'd have enough tank to be able to take some stray fire not mopped up by the heavy and you might not get noticed too much anyway because you're less likely to get scanned than a real logi. Pure conjecture here but sounds like it could be fun... This is pretty much what I was suggesting. As many of you know my role in corp is Sentinel (my scouting is my side passion when I'm running with y'all, nobody in my corp thinks of me as a scout). I still haven't played much of 1.8 and with the upcoming event will likely use my vehicle alt I use in PC (I gotta start speccing into ADS, my real vehicle passion) but would like to run the logi scout/Sentinel combo. But if I'm on my main I'm keen to try this out, I might throw a Kin Cat in the low so you're not stuck circling me all the time and we can actually go places.
Spectral Clone Dust2Dust. Top Men. 2179	Posted - 2014.04.10 10:26:00 - [13080] - Quote Scan/rep scout is insane in theory, since you provide passive scans for the heavy. Alt#1 Scout gk.0 - ScR, CR, RR, PLC, SMG Alt#2 Madrugar - Ion Cannon Alt#3 Commando gk.0 - Shotgun, AR



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