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Vyuru wrote:

Kaeru Nayiri wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Shotgun Operation increases alpha potential. It does not increase reach...directly. A skill which widened spread would decrease alpha potential. Also, increasing shotgun range could potentially pose balance and risk/reward issues ... high damage is presently justified by extremely limited range (5m optimal). An increase on range would likely necessitate a decrease in damage. In my head, at least :-)

Absolutely agree that an increase in range should go with decrease in power, and that is absolutely not what we want.

That aside, do you find that the operation skill truly increases alpha? From what I can tell (with me -extreme- lack of experience), it's either all pellets hit or they all miss, regardless of level. With the potential of more missing as the skill levels up.

If there are instances where only some pellets find their mark, having the skill maxed out would only result in none hitting at all. Am I thinking about this the wrong way??

It does increase alpha to a certain extent the farther out you are from your target when shooting. At roughly the 5m mark with no operation skill leveled, you'll miss with 1/3-1/2 of your pellets (roughly, tossing out a ballpark number). With operation skill at 5, at the 5m mark you will hit with 90%ish of your pellets.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Vyuru Algintal Core Gallente Federation 201	Posted - 2015.05.27 22:39:00 - [36751] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shotgun Operation increases alpha potential. It does not increase reach...directly. A skill which widened spread would decrease alpha potential. Also, increasing shotgun range could potentially pose balance and risk/reward issues ... high damage is presently justified by extremely limited range (5m optimal). An increase on range would likely necessitate a decrease in damage. In my head, at least :-) Absolutely agree that an increase in range should go with decrease in power, and that is absolutely not what we want. That aside, do you find that the operation skill truly increases alpha? From what I can tell (with me -extreme- lack of experience), it's either all pellets hit or they all miss, regardless of level. With the potential of more missing as the skill levels up. If there are instances where only some pellets find their mark, having the skill maxed out would only result in none hitting at all. Am I thinking about this the wrong way?? It does increase alpha to a certain extent the farther out you are from your target when shooting. At roughly the 5m mark with no operation skill leveled, you'll miss with 1/3-1/2 of your pellets (roughly, tossing out a ballpark number) With operation skill at 5, at the 5m mark you will hit with 90%ish of your pellets. It becomes much more of a, you either hit with all or nothing weapon. I left it at lvl 3 for the longest time, since that was a good balance between still having some spread if I missed, vs not hitting anything. When I got better with the SG, then I brought it up to lvl 5 since I could hit with all the pellets more reliably. How much +range did the old Sharpshooter skill give in Chrome? I kinda miss having that for my SG. I wouldn't mind several variants for the SG. One like we have now, the other a faster shooting, lower damage longer range SG. And change the Ion Pistol's charge shot to be a shotgun blast that uses up the entire clip of ammo.... (or somehting like 12 rounds) I like the idea of a pistol/SG combo :P
J0LLY R0G3R And the ButtPirates 3	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:11:00 - [36752] - Quote Just miss the ole rof on the sg. I'd go for distric kredits if they had some kinda "og" sg in that market place that you could buy with the dks. The ButtPirates Now Accepting Applications. XD TheYoutube
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:15:00 - [36753] - Quote Regarding the FW exploit. deezy dabest wrote: I knew this was coming when I died repeatedly in my APEX suit and realized that I received over 200k ISK payout afterwards. From the exploit thread in GD. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.27 23:50:00 - [36754] - Quote The Triage Ward just overtook my blog in terms of views. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Nachos Rogue Instincts New Eden's Heros 204	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:02:00 - [36755] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: The Triage Ward just overtook my blog in terms of views. What views? edit: Now i get it lol xavier zor's alt xavier zor
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:18:00 - [36756] - Quote I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:21:00 - [36757] - Quote Vyuru wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shotgun Operation increases alpha potential. It does not increase reach...directly. A skill which widened spread would decrease alpha potential. Also, increasing shotgun range could potentially pose balance and risk/reward issues ... high damage is presently justified by extremely limited range (5m optimal). An increase on range would likely necessitate a decrease in damage. In my head, at least :-) Absolutely agree that an increase in range should go with decrease in power, and that is absolutely not what we want. That aside, do you find that the operation skill truly increases alpha? From what I can tell (with me -extreme- lack of experience), it's either all pellets hit or they all miss, regardless of level. With the potential of more missing as the skill levels up. If there are instances where only some pellets find their mark, having the skill maxed out would only result in none hitting at all. Am I thinking about this the wrong way?? It does increase alpha to a certain extent the farther out you are from your target when shooting. At roughly the 5m mark with no operation skill leveled, you'll miss with 1/3-1/2 of your pellets (roughly, tossing out a ballpark number). With operation skill at 5, at the 5m mark you will hit with 90%ish of your pellets. I haven't tested at Operation(0), but Vyuru's assessment above seems reasonable. Goose and I measured variability of 1-2 pellets at the inside edge of optimal range (just under 5 meters). Variability (i.e. change in pellets on target) increased as distance between target and shooter grew beyond 5 meters. We concluded that shotgun spread is measurably not all or nothing and that variability could even be observed aiming center mass within optimal range; further, we found that shotgun damage decreases in a more exponential than linear pattern outside of optimal range. On a more anecdotal note, I get hit for partial damage regularly while running MinScout. If shotgun blasts were all or nothing, I'd never survive one with my ~300HP speedsuit when blasted within ~7 meters. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Nachos Rogue Instincts New Eden's Heros 205	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:31:00 - [36758] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. lol they're not even OG xavier zor's alt xavier zor
Dreis Shadowweaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 00:43:00 - [36759] - Quote Nachos wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. lol they're not even OG edit: I'm 100% sure D4GG3R uses a shotgun...killed him a couple times when he was running gal scout w/ experimental shotgun Still undefeated against 0.H's knifers Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 483	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:02:00 - [36760] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives

Dreis Shadowweaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:16:00 - [36761] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 I must say, NK duels are something that I really am good at. I only lose when I get distracted by redberries jumping in. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:22:00 - [36762] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Nachos wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. lol they're not even OG edit: I'm 100% sure D4GG3R uses a shotgun...killed him a couple times when he was running gal scout w/ experimental shotgun Still undefeated against 0.H's knifers What is your record against Nos Nothi knifers? Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Dreis ShadowWeaver 0uter.Heaven 4	Posted - 2015.05.28 02:25:00 - [36763] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Nachos wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. lol they're not even OG edit: I'm 100% sure D4GG3R uses a shotgun...killed him a couple times when he was running gal scout w/ experimental shotgun Still undefeated against 0.H's knifers What is your record against Nos Nothi knifers? I distinctly remember a very scary red Madrugar roaming around when you won that duel. But I very rarely lose honest, clean duels where I'm not distracted. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel My Minja Blog Caldari blood, Matari heart <3
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:08:00 - [36764] - Quote Haerr wrote: I made a thing to look at various dropsuit stats and compare them to each other and between races. Google docs LINK I think it is safe to say that part of the Minmatars overwhelming mobility comes from their far superior Stamina Regen. Speaking of which and about the Logis and Commandos, perhaps it is time to take a look at: Stamina Stamina Regen Shield Recharge Rate Shield Recharge Delay Shield Depleted Recharge Delay As well as the racial perks and sacrifices of various stats, what do you guys think? Looks like you're up! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2794536#post2794536 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Nachos Rogue Instincts New Eden's Heros 206	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:22:00 - [36765] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 I must say, NK duels are something that I really am good at. I only lose when I get distracted by redberries jumping in. me and 'The Infected One' from FA had several duels when i met 6 FA twice in a FW match...every time a red/blue would jump in we would let each other kill him before going back to our duel lol. knifers are another breed, we are one of a kind! xavier zor's alt xavier zor
mollerz 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:36:00 - [36766] - Quote Ok got a PS3 for the weekend. What should I expect? Wanna knife in Proto minja. Also if possible I'm giving away all my whizz. What can I give to people? Any limitations?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:38:00 - [36767] - Quote mollerz wrote: Ok got a PS3 for the weekend. What should I expect? Wanna knife in Porto ninja. Also if possible I'm giving away all my whizz. What can I give to people? Any limitations? PGs were moved to highs! 2 shields, 1 PG in your highs. 3x Reds in your lows. Have fun. (but don't get scanned) You can presently trade/gift Officer Gear and a few SKINs. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 487	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:42:00 - [36768] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 I must say, NK duels are something that I really am good at. I only lose when I get distracted by redberries jumping in. I am FA's shotgunning thunderdome champion. I have also beaten Ghost Kaisar multiple times in NK duels, and never lost to him. I don't play with Aim Assist on, so when I come to knife your ass, you're just like any other red dot. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Nachos 208	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:51:00 - [36769] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 I must say, NK duels are something that I really am good at. I only lose when I get distracted by redberries jumping in. I am FA's shotgunning thunderdome champion. I have also beaten Ghost Kaisar multiple times in NK duels, and never lost to him. I don't play with Aim Assist on, so when I come to knife your ass, you're just like any other red dot. another aim assist l33t player my thread was a troll thread, as well as the insults thrown at VAHZZ, Kalente Schiffer, Dreis, PARKOUR and Arirana xavier zor's alt xavier zor
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 04:59:00 - [36770] - Quote Nachos wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dusty5678 twice and D4GG3R once. 1v1 me m8 ill fockin rek u m8 I must say, NK duels are something that I really am good at. I only lose when I get distracted by redberries jumping in. I am FA's shotgunning thunderdome champion. I have also beaten Ghost Kaisar multiple times in NK duels, and never lost to him. I don't play with Aim Assist on, so when I come to knife your ass, you're just like any other red dot. another aim assist l33t player my thread was a troll thread, as well as the insults thrown at VAHZZ, Kalente Schiffer, Dreis, PARKOUR and Arirana ? Im explaining why Im so good at duels, not bragging about how "1337" I am. BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives

Nachos 208	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:02:00 - [36771] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: I don't play with Aim Assist on why did you include this in your post then? To show how l33t you are? edit: knives don't really benefit from AA as far as i can tell... xavier zor's alt xavier zor
Archduke Ferd1nand Nos Nothi 488	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:05:00 - [36772] - Quote Nachos wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: I don't play with Aim Assist on why did you include this in your post then? To show how l33t you are? edit: knives don't really benefit from AA as far as i can tell... Are you dense, or simply missing a chromosome? Duels are typically between 2 blues--> between teammates there is no AA--> playing without AA regularly makes you accustomed to playing without it--> this gives you an advantage over someone used to its effects in a fight BRB, looking for socks PSN: tommygunboy2080 I shit shotgun shells and piss Remote Explosives
Nachos 210	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:30:00 - [36773] - Quote Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: Nachos wrote: Archduke Ferd1nand wrote: I don't play with Aim Assist on why did you include this in your post then? To show how l33t you are? edit: knives don't really benefit from AA as far as i can tell... Are you dense, or simply missing a chromosome? Duels are typically between 2 blues--> between teammates there is no AA--> playing without AA regularly makes you accustomed to playing without it--> this gives you an advantage over someone used to its effects in a fight So your saying that you only duel friendlys.... xavier zor's alt xavier zor

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 23	Posted - 2015.05.28 05:35:00 - [36774] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: I made a thing to look at various dropsuit stats and compare them to each other and between races. Google docs LINK I think it is safe to say that part of the Minmatars overwhelming mobility comes from their far superior Stamina Regen. Speaking of which and about the Logis and Commandos, perhaps it is time to take a look at: Stamina Stamina Regen Shield Recharge Rate Shield Recharge Delay Shield Depleted Recharge Delay As well as the racial perks and sacrifices of various stats, what do you guys think? Looks like you're up! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2794536#post2794536 So, sometimes its better to get an analysis, than the data. What, Haerr, springs to mind when you see these. Also, traditionally I always line up some x-y charts to see trends, or lack of them. Stam pool vs Speed and Stam pool vs Stam regen would be two. Maybe they always equal out on a max travelled distance (normalized value), one runs consistently and one sprint/walks. Shield vs Shield Regen, same thing here. Total seconds to fill shield pool could be a normalized value to compare. Would love to see it, saves me some work and you already have the data. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.05.28 07:40:00 - [36775] - Quote Commando shield recharge is just... bad. Like if the complex armor repairer wasn't so damn good (seriously, that thing is like the best module in the game) even the armor commando's would be incredibly unpopular. I hope Haer can provide you some relevant insights. I'd almost be curious to see what leaving shield commando's recharge values at their current incredibly low rates, but dropping their recharge delays to 0 would do to them (being heavy suits they're not particularly mobile and they don't have a huge amount of HP, but they also don't need to be as close as sentinels do to do their work so non-existant delays, but low recharge amounts), that's probably not a good idea though. On another note. I've recently found Recettear on my hard drive the game is both adorable (oh no a hoodlums gunna steal my cuteness!) and awesome, Capitalism Ho! Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Nachos 210	Posted - 2015.05.28 08:53:00 - [36776] - Quote If they do end up adding another slot to the commando, this thing will be viable! I've squadded with rexia myr (ex 0.H) who runs the mk.0 commando pretty well. He is one guy i really couldn't knife, always watching his 6. edited so i don't sound like an ego-stroker xavier zor's alt knifed musturd, radar, duna xavier zor
noob cavman Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 09:24:00 - [36777] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Nachos wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I've been having a couple NK duels against 0.H's knifers in a no-show PC and FW. I'm currently undefeated, having beat Dust5678 twice and D4GG3R once. lol they're not even OG edit: I'm 100% sure D4GG3R uses a shotgun...killed him a couple times when he was running gal scout w/ experimental shotgun Still undefeated against 0.H's knifers What is your record against Nos Nothi knifers? I distinctly remember a very scary red Madrugar roaming around when you won that duel. But I very rarely lose honest, clean duels where I'm not distracted. I want to be a caveman! psn: marko_blues Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 904	Posted - 2015.05.28 10:16:00 - [36778] - Quote Capitalism ho!
Haerr The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:07:00 - [36779] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Haerr wrote: I made a thing to look at various dropsuit stats and compare them to each other and between races. Google docs LINK I think it is safe to say that part of the Minmatars overwhelming mobility comes from their far superior Stamina Regen. Speaking of which and about the Logis and Commandos, perhaps it is time to take a look at: Stamina Stamina Regen Shield Recharge Rate Shield Recharge Delay Shield Depleted Recharge Delay As well as the racial perks and sacrifices of various stats, what do you guys think? Looks like you're up! https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2794536#post2794536 So, sometimes its better to get an analysis, than the data. What, Haerr, springs to mind when you see these. Also, traditionally I always line up some x-y charts to see trends, or lack of them. Stam pool vs Speed and Stam pool vs Stam regen would be two. Maybe they always equal out on a max travelled distance (normalized value), one runs consistently and one sprint/walks. Shield vs Shield Regen, same thing here. Total seconds to fill shield pool could be a normalized value to compare. Would love to see it, saves me some work and you already have the data. # While preferring consistency, but not minding specific outliers as long as they are there for a reason. (Minmatar Scout Melee and Caldari Sentinel Depleted Delay for example.) What springs to mind is this: There is a sense of lack of a baseline for the dropsuit roles. Having one would help when applying racial variance templates, since it would be clearer and more consistent. Which leads into to next point of the racial variances for shield stats being out of character for no apparent design reason. (Amarr Sentinel depleted delay being quicker than both Gallente and Minmatar for example. And different Caldari suits having between +15 (+71%) and +3.5 (+21%) shield recharge rates.) Speaking of shield stats, considering that shield HP is more difficult to come by than armour HP through the use of modules (less hp per module), perhaps moving some of the armour hp to shield hp directly on the Caldari suits, to match it with Amarrs armour hp, could be an option if shields need to be stronger. (Same with Minmatar having the same shield hp that the Gallente has armour HP.) Then differentiating the shield recharge stats so that they are not the same for any two races. It really comes down to which design principles are have established for the baselines and the racial variances and how the shield recharge balance between the different dropsuit roles end up looking like. (While strong tank affords players the ability to stick around, strong recharge allows them to get back into the fight quicker again after taking damage. So perhaps that is something that the Assaults should be better than the rest of the (Medium) suits at?) As for the stamina stats it was more about the differences between roles and how they relate to how those roles play than being annoyed about one race consistently having between 2x and 3x the recharge rate of two other races. More opinions than a proper analysis but oh well I hope it helps in some way. So in conclusion here is what (I think) would be a decent enough way forward. Establish per dropsuit role baseline stats. (Could very well be for derived stats instead of base stats in some cases) Establish racial variance templates. (^Same here) Oh and the Minmatar hacking speed bonus isn't applied to all Minmatar suits. # Shield regen stats would be a lot more interesting with the brick numbers so if anyones feels like it they could simply make a copy of this here spreadsheet and put them into the maxShield cells on the different dropsuit sheets.
Spademan 6	Posted - 2015.05.28 11:29:00 - [36780] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: honest That's your problem right there. What're you looking at me like that for? I'll shank you I will.



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