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First Prophet wrote:

Dreis Shadowweaver wrote:

First Prophet wrote:

Dreis Shadowweaver wrote:

Edit: Besides, it's not the gear that makes the player; I'd still be stomping in Standard gear.

Then go stomp in Standard gear. Do it. Quit using proto like a scrub.

I grinded ISK (from 99.8% pub matches) so that I could afford to run Proto. If I can afford it, why shouldn't I use it?

But there's no end to this sort of argument.

If you grinded isk for proto to use in pubs than you admit that you're a scrub who isn't good enough to roll in standard because if you were, you wouldn't have saved that money to be able to run proto in pubs.
The only valid reason to grind for isk is to pay poor people to do embarassing things or to blow on pointless gambling.
And bpo collection i guess.

The end is don't proto stomp you scrub.

If you have proto gear and want to use it, great. That's awesome. Go ahead and use it all you want. IN PLANETARY CONQUEST. WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE USED. Proto gear is END GAME equipment, use it in an END GAME activity. Pubs are EARLY GAME activity. It's where all the fresh mercs jump into straight out of academy. Don't use god damn proto there. Use it in FW if you want. Just not in pubs. If you want to play pubs, play it all you want, but use the appropriate gear for it.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
First Prophet Nos Nothi 2657	Posted - 2015.03.17 15:02:00 - [31561] - Quote xavier zor wrote: This page, with its proto arguments It's not the page, it's really just me. And I'm not saying NEVER use proto. Use proto in PC and FW all you want. And I'm not saying you can't use proto if you're team is down. I'm saying don't PROTOSTOMP. It's really simple. People find this this review helpful!
Quil Evrything Nos Nothi 1951	Posted - 2015.03.17 15:46:00 - [31562] - Quote Any other folks wanna say why they are NOT interested in the hawk series proto scout bpo? I'd personally love one (I think). If they offered it at a reasonable aurum price, I'd actually spend real money for it. Which is surprising because I almost never spend money for ANYTHING.
Murt Lesp Leviathan Battalion 286	Posted - 2015.03.17 15:59:00 - [31563] - Quote I have tried all the scout suits at one time or another and if I had to rank them on how I enjoyed playing them Amarr Scout (I like the stamina and scan precision) Gallente Scout (Hide easily) Caldari/Minmatar Scout (Couldn't manage the stealth, personally) Logi Forever Scout in Training
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7804	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:10:00 - [31564] - Quote First Prophet wrote: xavier zor wrote: This page, with its proto arguments It's not the page, it's really just me. Can confirm. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 2214	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:18:00 - [31565] - Quote I secretly share prophet's views on proto gear ('GÇó_GÇó) I try not to be so abrasive about it though Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
2Berries Ghosts of Dawn General Tso's Alliance 721	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:20:00 - [31566] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Any other folks wanna say why they are NOT interested in the hawk series proto scout bpo? I'd personally love one (I think). If they offered it at a reasonable aurum price, I'd actually spend real money for it. Which is surprising because I almost never spend money for ANYTHING. I would love a hawk suit, but i'm not paying aur & my corp only dies cal fw to awox. sigh I'm trying to make the grass fabulous but the f*king sticks won't work!
Dreis Shadowweaver Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2225	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:25:00 - [31567] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: I secretly share prophet's views on proto gear ('GÇó_GÇó) I try not to be so abrasive about it though It seems like there is no middle ground; those who get stomped whine about Proto, and those who stomp say that they are entitled to it. Here's a thought: I like to win. If you don't like this, why don't you pull your own Proto out and come and stop me? Would it surprise you though if I told you I support meta-locking pubs? Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)saxonmish
Dreis Shadowweaver Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2225	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:31:00 - [31568] - Quote First Prophet wrote: xavier zor wrote: This page, with its proto arguments It's not the page, it's really just me. And I'm not saying NEVER use proto. Use proto in PC and FW all you want. And I'm not saying you can't use proto if you're team is down. I'm saying don't PROTOSTOMP. It's really simple. Let me clarify my stance on pubs: It's unfair that people can run full Proto and stomp newberries. That doesn't mean I won't do it, however. I do everything in my power (everything that the game lets me do) to win. I believe that pubs should be meta-locked though to level the playing field. In a nutshell, I want there to be a more level playing field in pubs between newbs and vets. But I'm not going to create this level playing field myself, because I want to win more than anything. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)saxonmish
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 680	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:33:00 - [31569] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Kaeru Working on the spreadsheet ... Replacing Target Visibility with this formula creates some extreme cases. I am concerned that high-profile profile units would simply be scanned for too long. I don't know that we'll be able to wholly replace Target Visibility, though I do still like the idea of weighting the stat to account for the disparity between Scanner Precision and Target Profile as well as Time Painted. If we can't find a good formula which eliminates extremes, we can still fall back on Jebus' proposed bonus (Dampeners reduce Target Visibility by a fixed percentage). What if the 15 db scanner has only a 2 second Paint_Time ? I realized some edge cases would create bad scenarios but I think the trick would be to control the Paint_Time versus scan precision of various scanners. I do like Jebus' idea as well and in no way want this model instead of his. This is just born of the idea of fixing the exploit without changing the probably-hard-coded nature of scanners. (If they weren't, they would've made them true snapshots by now?) Know what cannot be known.
Murt Lesp Leviathan Battalion 287	Posted - 2015.03.17 16:35:00 - [31570] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: First Prophet wrote: xavier zor wrote: This page, with its proto arguments It's not the page, it's really just me. And I'm not saying NEVER use proto. Use proto in PC and FW all you want. And I'm not saying you can't use proto if you're team is down. I'm saying don't PROTOSTOMP. It's really simple. Let me clarify my stance on pubs: It's unfair that people can run full Proto and stomp newberries. That doesn't mean I won't do it, however. I do everything in my power (everything that the game lets me do) to win. I believe that pubs should be meta-locked though to level the playing field. In a nutshell, I want there to be a more level playing field in pubs between newbs and vets. But I'm not going to create this level playing field myself, because I want to win more than anything. I'd move for a difficulty/meta level selection like picking Skirmish, Ambush, Domination, Factional etc. Higher payouts in higher levels, but bigger allowances for suits and gear. Amarr by blood, but ISK buys more loyalty I love my AScR

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7805	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:03:00 - [31571] - Quote Spin Scan Fix, v1.0 Primary Objective: Solve Spin-Scanning Secondary Objective: Make Active Scans Less Binary Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7805	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:08:00 - [31572] - Quote @ Kaeru Nayiri Tweaked your formula and reigned in the extremes ... TacNet Scan Time (sec) = (Target Visibility * (Paint Time / Scan Duration)) + Profile Disparity Bonus - Dampener Duration Discount Disparity Bonus (sec) = 30% * (Target Profile - Scanner Precision) * (Paint Time / Scan Duration) Dampener Discount (sec) = Profile Dampeners now include Scan Visibility Discount equal to Scan Profile Discount (Stacking Penalties Apply) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 2218	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:21:00 - [31573] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: I secretly share prophet's views on proto gear ('GÇó_GÇó) I try not to be so abrasive about it though Here's a thought: I like to win. If you don't like this, why don't you pull your own Proto out and come and stop me? Would it surprise you though if I told you I support meta-locking pubs? Well, I don't like to run proto. Most people don't run proto, so it feels cheap. Most people who run proto say "I could do just as well in ADV or STD", but they run proto anyway so they can get an advantage over the average player. Plus pretty much the only way to make a profit running proto in pubs is to organize proto blocs and stomp the other team into submission, which is even scummier. I'm used to running ADV gear against proto so I don't mind that much, I actually kind of enjoy playing the underdog and hunting the big expensive suits. I just don't like having to go up against it nearly every match, and I especially don't like what it does to the NPE. That's a problem that doesn't need exacerbating. I'm with you on metalevel lockouts though, I can't wait for that. Edit: proto proto proto proto proto proto proto proto proto Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1700	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:24:00 - [31574] - Quote @ scan brainstorming guys spitballing, based on not sure what options ccp actually have at this point, but a wild idea..... what if getting scanned bumped merc profile up by a specified amount. and then that profile reduces back down to its normal level. you could build in all sorts of ramp ups and ramp downs based on scanner strengths, distances, merc mods etc. but the important thing would be that the stats on a mercs suit is what changes to dictate whether or not it can be seen. side effect of this though is p.scans will also pick mercs up....ive not thought it through lol....RUN WITH IT! :-p
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1266	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:32:00 - [31575] - Quote First Prophet wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: First Prophet wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Edit: Besides, it's not the gear that makes the player; I'd still be stomping in Standard gear. Then go stomp in Standard gear. Do it. Quit using proto like a scrub. I grinded ISK (from 99.8% pub matches) so that I could afford to run Proto. If I can afford it, why shouldn't I use it? But there's no end to this sort of argument. If you grinded isk for proto to use in pubs than you admit that you're a scrub who isn't good enough to roll in standard because if you were, you wouldn't have saved that money to be able to run proto in pubs. The only valid reason to grind for isk is to pay poor people to do embarassing things or to blow on pointless gambling. And bpo collection i guess. The end is don't proto stomp you scrub. If you have proto gear and want to use it, great. That's awesome. Go ahead and use it all you want. IN PLANETARY CONQUEST. WHERE IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE USED. Proto gear is END GAME equipment, use it in an END GAME activity. Pubs are EARLY GAME activity. It's where all the fresh mercs jump into straight out of academy. Don't use god damn proto there. Use it in FW if you want. Just not in pubs. If you want to play pubs, play it all you want, but use the appropriate gear for it. I strongly disagree with this attitude. Proto gear is not designed to be used just in PC, a mode which most don't play. Your view is limited in scope. Most use some proto items on their suits, look at your modules, Complex Shield Extender or Profile Dampener anyone? You going to have issues with my proto NK's on my advanced Min scout? Who is to decide what counts as 'proto'. It's often not the gear but the squaded players using team work and match making that cause the issues that people scream proto stomping about. Look at the real issues instead of putting blinders on and complaining about proto gear. Overlord of Broman
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1266	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:36:00 - [31576] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: I secretly share prophet's views on proto gear ('GÇó_GÇó) I try not to be so abrasive about it though It seems like there is no middle ground; those who get stomped whine about Proto, and those who stomp say that they are entitled to it. Here's a thought: I like to win. If you don't like this, why don't you pull your own Proto out and come and stop me? Would it surprise you though if I told you I support meta-locking pubs? I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. Overlord of Broman
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1290	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:44:00 - [31577] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Any other folks wanna say why they are NOT interested in the hawk series proto scout bpo? I'd personally love one (I think). If they offered it at a reasonable aurum price, I'd actually spend real money for it. Which is surprising because I almost never spend money for ANYTHING. I like my Apex 'Hawk' Only thing I would change is switch the scanner and cloak. The scanner is worthless so want it on the bottom so i don't select it on accident going to cloak. Apex 'Serpent' I hate it. No ranged weapons. If I could get it with a burst or tac ar I would love it. The other 3 scouts all have nice long range rifles and the Serpent is stuck with 2 cQc weapons Apex 'Tiger' I hate it. I mostly run gal fittings with stacked precision so they CR kills me very quick, lol Apex -amarr- what ever it is called. Does this suit really exist? noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7806	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:49:00 - [31578] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. Agreed. Managing stomps via squad size is the better fix, IMHO. Examples: Ambush - Max 4 Dom - Max 4 Skirm - Max 6 FW - Max 18 Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1290	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:55:00 - [31579] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Pseudogenesis wrote: I secretly share prophet's views on proto gear ('GÇó_GÇó) I try not to be so abrasive about it though It seems like there is no middle ground; those who get stomped whine about Proto, and those who stomp say that they are entitled to it. Here's a thought: I like to win. If you don't like this, why don't you pull your own Proto out and come and stop me? Would it surprise you though if I told you I support meta-locking pubs? I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. If only the pubs was meta-locked it might shorten the FW wait time. Plus you think those stomping pubs now are going to not run organized squads in low meta matches for the chance for easy noob/solo player kills? noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
Murt Lesp Leviathan Battalion 288	Posted - 2015.03.17 17:59:00 - [31580] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Apex -amarr- what ever it is called. Does this suit really exist? It's called the dragon because people either have never seen one or question its existence. I'm mildly tempted to be the first Amarr by blood, but ISK buys more loyalty I love my AScR

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7808	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:16:00 - [31581] - Quote voidfaction wrote: If only the pubs was meta-locked it might shorten the FW wait time. Plus you think those stomping pubs now are going to not run organized squads in low meta matches for the chance for easy noob/solo player kills? The stomper's goal is to maximize kills at minimum risk. If the least resistance is to be found in lowest tiers, they'll stomp the lower tiers. Meta locks won't fix stomping. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Quil Evrything Nos Nothi 1953	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:32:00 - [31582] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. they should just try it for a week and see what happens.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1290	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:32:00 - [31583] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: voidfaction wrote: If only the pubs was meta-locked it might shorten the FW wait time. Plus you think those stomping pubs now are going to not run organized squads in low meta matches for the chance for easy noob/solo player kills? The stomper's goal is to maximize kills at minimum risk. If the least resistance is to be found in lowest tiers, they'll stomp the lower tiers. Meta locks won't fix stomping. I would rather have a stomp squad all running std than a stomp squad running all proto. So that being said yes meta locks will fix a big part of the stomping. organized squads will most always beat not organized yes but not nearly as bad as they can all running proto. I can klll a 500hp assault a lot easer than i can kill a 1000hp assault. 1-2 proto scanners on std gal logi is by far easier to counter than a 4 proto scanner proto gal logi noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7810	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:38:00 - [31584] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. Incorrect. Assume we have 2000 players online at any time. Those 2000 players are presently divided into 4 queues (Bush, Dom, Skirm, FW). Let's assume they're divided evenly. We have 500 players in each bin available to Scotty for matchmaking, some of whom are deployed in battle and some of whom are waiting in queue. Now let's introduce two meta levels for each queue, low security and high security. Now we have 8 queues instead of 4. Now we have 250 players per bin available to Scotty for matchmaking. That's assuming optimal and evenly divided bins. Meta locks will absolutely affect queue times. Meta locks will absolutely result in increased likelihood of seeing the same players match after match after match. Both are not signs of a healthy game. It is not uncommon to sit in queue for 3-4 minutes during off-peak hours. The size of our playerbase does not presently support meta locks. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22856	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:41:00 - [31585] - Quote Why can't we have standard and proto closer together in terms of effectiveness? It prevents newbies from getting slaughtered overly hard, avoids matchmaking problems, and keeps a progression. Gallente Guide
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 680	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:41:00 - [31586] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: @ Kaeru Nayiri Tweaked your formula and reigned in the extremes ... [...] Thank you very much ! I appreciate the time you put into this. It seems like a great middle ground with Jebus' idea. I will inspect the spreadsheet in a moment. Here is my account on my test for you to add to the spreadsheet, as you ru-quested: Finding my way into the middle of the map with a scanner, first making sure other players are not using scans, I was able to perform a 360 degree spin fast enough for the scanner to ping targets in all directions, for the full 15 second duration timer of my advanced quantum scanner. I also tested with a proximity scanner as the cool down is = ping time to make sure there is no human element involved, targets were pinged for all 10 seconds, despite barely being glanced by a 360 degree super fast spin. There is however a glitch in which case the scans sometimes come up very late or not at all. difficult to determine the cause. Late results could be lag or too much scan surface? No results at all could be human error. Know what cannot be known.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1290	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:42:00 - [31587] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this. The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. Incorrect. Assume we have 2000 players online at any time. Those 2000 players are presently divided into 4 queues (Bush, Dom, Skirm, FW). Let's assume they're divided evenly. We have 500 players in each bin available to Scotty for matchmaking, some of whom are deployed in battle and some of whom are waiting in queue. Now let's introduce two meta levels for each queue, low security and high security. Now we have 8 queues instead of 4. Now we have 250 players per bin available to Scotty for matchmaking. That's assuming optimal and evenly divided bins. Meta locks will absolutely affect queue times. Meta locks will absolutely result in increased likelihood of seeing the same players match after match after match. Both are not signs of a healthy game. I don't want 3 versions on pub skirmish I want all pubs meta locked. You don't want meta lock then run FW pushing more players into FW the end game for those not interested in PC. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1290	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:46:00 - [31588] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Why can't we have standard and proto closer together in terms of effectiveness? It prevents newbies from getting slaughtered overly hard, avoids matchmaking problems, and keeps a progression. That is kind of what meta lock would do. You still have lvl 5 stronger than a lvl 1 assault due to skills. Problem we have now is not only is a lvl 5 assault stronger than a level 1 but they also have a stronger suit. noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 680	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:48:00 - [31589] - Quote @Adipem I noticed that in your spreadsheet all scanners would have a 1 second Paint_Time, correct? I thought it would be "cool" if different scanners had longer and shorter paint times, limiting the really high precision scanners to 1 or 2 seconds, but giving the low precision ones longer time. Is 1 second enough for even low sensitivity DS3 users to be able to use the device as much as those with higher sensitivity? I don't really know, myself, just keeping the discussion alive. Know what cannot be known.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7811	Posted - 2015.03.17 18:50:00 - [31590] - Quote voidfaction wrote: I don't want 3 versions on pub skirmish I want all pubs meta locked. You don't want meta lock then run FW pushing more players into FW the end game for those not interested in PC. That's an idea, but I don't think it'll fly. I (for one) certainly would not support it. We'd be better off adding a squad-free, std-gear-only mode. I don't understand why you guys are hung up on meta locks. Squad size is a surer fix. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley



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