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Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:

Scan angle is ultimately irrelevant while spin scanning still exists.

Think this might require a KB/M now. Haerr switched to DS3. Need someone else to test.

Kaeru runs KB/M, right?

I have tested 360 scans and can confirm they still exist with KB/M.

Most scanning discussions are utterly broken because of this one ability. 360 scans break any semblance of balance almost regardless of the other stats.

Crud! But good to know. Ideas on how to fix this?

The original fix (snapshot?) set scan cycle at 0.3 seconds (if I recall correctly).
Any ideas why they didn't drop it 0.1?

0.1 won't fix it either.

It needs to be a snapshot mechanic rather than a duration mechanic. I have successfully set up a macro on my mouse to do four spins even in the 0.3 second time period. 0.1 would make it less reliable under lag but it also opens up that issue with normal usage and still doesn't fix the problem.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have the coding resources for this.

Also, I'm pretty certain that this practise is very widespread. I know a number of people who use this technique and I also know for certain that some pubstomp squads I've been in refuse to run without using it.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 8617	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:40:00 - [31531] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: PS: Currently testing 2 Blue, 1 Precision, 2 Red, 1 Damp. 125 shield / 87 armor 125k a pop :P (will probably have to swap out 1 blue for a shield) I bet you die from fall damage more than red dots Not if you are jumping on flat surfaces, but if you have even slight elevation, you definitely take some damage. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7792	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:44:00 - [31532] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: PS: Currently testing 2 Blue, 1 Precision, 2 Red, 1 Damp. 125 shield / 87 armor 125k a pop :P (will probably have to swap out 1 blue for a shield) I bet you die from fall damage more than red dots 6 kills. First death ... fall damage. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
First Prophet Nos Nothi 2656	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:46:00 - [31533] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Edit: Besides, it's not the gear that makes the player; I'd still be stomping in Standard gear. Then go stomp in Standard gear. Do it. Quit using proto like a scrub. People find this this review helpful!
Dreis Shadowweaver Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2220	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:52:00 - [31534] - Quote My haters (WOOP WOOP I HAVE HATERS \ O /) will love this. Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. But then, it all started coming back to me... My thumb-memory kicked in, and I started STOMPING EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. My K/D skyrocketed, which is funny considering I normally run Min Assault. I've realised (again) that running as a Minja is my true calling. I didn't know it was possible to be a scrub whilst running a Min Scout though... Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)saxonmish
xavier zor Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 946	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:54:00 - [31535] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: My haters (WOOP WOOP I HAVE HATERS \ O /) will love this. Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. But then, it all started coming back to me... My thumb-memory kicked in, and I started STOMPING EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. My K/D skyrocketed, which is funny considering I normally run Min Assault. I've realised (again) that running as a Minja is my true calling. I didn't know it was possible to be a scrub whilst running a Min Scout though... Play Asian servers, run into KTB on skirms, send hate mail and have a whole corp of haters LOL retired https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RGOuOaObVA<---KingThunderBolt fail montage meh
Dreis Shadowweaver Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2220	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:55:00 - [31536] - Quote First Prophet wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Edit: Besides, it's not the gear that makes the player; I'd still be stomping in Standard gear. Then go stomp in Standard gear. Do it. Quit using proto like a scrub. I grinded ISK (from 99.8% pub matches) so that I could afford to run Proto. If I can afford it, why shouldn't I use it? But there's no end to this sort of argument. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)saxonmish
Dreis Shadowweaver Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 2220	Posted - 2015.03.17 02:57:00 - [31537] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: My haters (WOOP WOOP I HAVE HATERS \ O /) will love this. Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. But then, it all started coming back to me... My thumb-memory kicked in, and I started STOMPING EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. My K/D skyrocketed, which is funny considering I normally run Min Assault. I've realised (again) that running as a Minja is my true calling. I didn't know it was possible to be a scrub whilst running a Min Scout though... Play Asian servers, run into KTB on skirms, send hate mail and have a whole corp of haters LOL There's a vid on his channel of all of 3rd rock invading his pub chat Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 Dreis(Ishukone Nova Knives)saxonmish
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 10669	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:08:00 - [31538] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: xavier zor wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: My haters (WOOP WOOP I HAVE HATERS \ O /) will love this. Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. But then, it all started coming back to me... My thumb-memory kicked in, and I started STOMPING EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. My K/D skyrocketed, which is funny considering I normally run Min Assault. I've realised (again) that running as a Minja is my true calling. I didn't know it was possible to be a scrub whilst running a Min Scout though... Play Asian servers, run into KTB on skirms, send hate mail and have a whole corp of haters LOL There's a vid on his channel of all of 3rd rock invading his pub chat We did that AGES ago in FA. Funniest 2 minutes ever before we all got kicked Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
sir RAVEN WING Corrosive Synergy 3205	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:16:00 - [31539] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: My haters (WOOP WOOP I HAVE HATERS \ O /) will love this. Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. But then, it all started coming back to me... My thumb-memory kicked in, and I started STOMPING EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. My K/D skyrocketed, which is funny considering I normally run Min Assault. I've realised (again) that running as a Minja is my true calling. I didn't know it was possible to be a scrub whilst running a Min Scout though... I must request that you try to knife with a Calscout. (As I am the guy who really wants Calscouts to start knifing.) *My PLC is named 'God's Wrath'* Why? *It strikes you from the Heavens and sends you to Hell.*
Shotty GoBang Nos Nothi 4026	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:18:00 - [31540] - Quote On spin-scanning ... Kaeru reports: 1) KB/M spin scanning works, but it is not 100% reliable 2) targets painted by spin-scan appear to be remain painted for full scan duration (rather than blip)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7793	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:19:00 - [31541] - Quote Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 10669	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:19:00 - [31542] - Quote Shotty GoBang wrote: On spin-scanning ... Kaeru reports: 1) KB/M spin scanning works, but it is not 100% reliable 2) targets painted by spin-scan appear to be remain painted for full scan duration (rather than blip) Shotty GoBang wrote: On spin-scanning ... Shotty GoBang wrote: HE'S ALIVE!!! Currently listening to: Max Anarchy OST Old School Scout, watch out for the knives
Eruditus 920 Nemo Malus Felix 1486	Posted - 2015.03.17 03:29:00 - [31543] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: PS: Currently testing 2 Blue, 1 Precision, 2 Red, 1 Damp. 125 shield / 87 armor 125k a pop :P (will probably have to swap out 1 blue for a shield) I'm sitting on about 130k minmatar LP. I have no interest in the apex, so I use it for the few proto suits I have. Cuts costs considerably !!!! Don't buy weapons in the LP store though.... whoa what a waste. I have 6 digit LP in Gal and Min (lvl 8 in both) which I use for all my Proto suits. It's much more economical to combine LP and ISK. LP accounts for roughly 40% of my economy and as such I can run about anything I want, within reason of course. "Stay gold, Ponyboy..."
FLAYLOCK Steve Nos Nothi 514	Posted - 2015.03.17 05:06:00 - [31544] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Scan angle is ultimately irrelevant while spin scanning still exists. Think this might require KB/M now. Haerr switched to DS3; need someone else to test/confirm that spin-scanning still works. Kaeru runs KB/M, right? * Edit: Also Supply Depots ... those can't exist either :P I do us m/kb, and I will be happy to test it. Though lately I have noticed my active scanner is... different... The results come out SUPER late... Like a good 3 seconds after the scan is complete. I don't know why. I have a feeling it has something to do with scannerina nerfing? It can't JUST be lag, i would notice it in more than just my scan results. Hmmm ... that delay must be input-specific; I run scanners regularly and have never experienced a delay (DS3). I don't think that testing is needed; Arkena has confirmed that spin-scanning is still possible. The results are most likely delayed due to lag. Even the normal passive scan can be delayed
Quil Evrything Nos Nothi 1951	Posted - 2015.03.17 05:38:00 - [31545] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I'm sitting on about 130k minmatar LP. I have no interest in the apex, so I use it for the few proto suits I have. Cuts costs considerably !!!! Don't buy weapons in the LP store though.... whoa what a waste. Um... you know that for 100,000 LP, you can buy a minmatar proto.. BPO scout suit ? !!
First Prophet Nos Nothi 2657	Posted - 2015.03.17 06:06:00 - [31546] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: First Prophet wrote: Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Edit: Besides, it's not the gear that makes the player; I'd still be stomping in Standard gear. Then go stomp in Standard gear. Do it. Quit using proto like a scrub. I grinded ISK (from 99.8% pub matches) so that I could afford to run Proto. If I can afford it, why shouldn't I use it? But there's no end to this sort of argument. If you grinded isk for proto than you admit that you're a scrub who isn't good enough to roll in standard because if you were, you wouldn't have saved that money to be able to run proto. The only valid reason to grind for isk is to pay poor people to do embarassing things or to blow on pointless gambling. And bpo collection i guess. The end is don't proto stomp you scrub. People find this this review helpful!
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 676	Posted - 2015.03.17 06:24:00 - [31547] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The unreliable bit was most likely some form of human error (i was spinning manually). I'm sure there is a way to eliminate the glitchiness. I did notice that the more spin you put on the scanner, the longer it took for the results to come up. It was really strange. Maybe lag created coincidence?? CCP: Fixing the active scanner to be more fun to use and remove exploits like this. Consider the idea of target painting with the scanner. 1. Bring back the old active timers on the scanners (instead of the 0.3 seconds). 2. Then make it so that the longer a target is scanned down, the longer they stay lit up on TACNET. (want to pan the scanner left and right while it's active? fine, but don't expect it to give you a very useful scan !) 3. Finally, reduce the amount of time they stay lit up on TACNET based on the amount (dropsuit profile - scanner precision) _____________________________________________________________________________ SIMPLE FORMULA (Paint_Time) * (Suit_Profile - Scanner_Prec +1) / 3 = TACNET SCAN TIME the +1 just makes sure precision trumps dampening when values are equal. _____________________________________________________________________________ EXAMPLE: Ru's Scanner is a basic scanner with 40db precision, and 3 seconds active scan time, at 45 degrees. (No more 'target scanned for X seconds' stat) I use Ru's Scanner on a nearby ennemy CRU i suspect has people around it, I keep it focused on the CRU for the entire 3 second duration of the scanner. Some big ole' frame near the CRU has a profile of 50. (3 Seconds) * (50 db - 40 db + 1) / 3 = 11 seconds on the TACNET Another big frame was on the edge of my scanner, but meandered off to the side and was only scanned for 0.5 seconds. (0.5 Seconds) * (50 db - 40 db +1) / 3 = 1.833 seconds on the TACNET Turns out there was a scout right in front of me that I couldn't see because of cloak, his profile is currently 32. (3 Seconds) * (32 db - 40 db +1) / 3 = -7 => negative number, no scan on TACNET A Medium Frame came charging at me head on a second after I turned on the scanner.. his profile was 45. (2 Seconds) * (45 db - 40 db+1) / 3 = 3.33 seconds on TACNET. Ru's Scanner is rudimentary, there's an advanced variant that can Paint_Time for 5 seconds at the same db. There's another advanced variant that has the same 3 second Paint_Time but at 30 db ! ______________________________________________________________________________ EDGE CASES: Longest Scanner Paint Time: 5 seconds? (this scanner should be limited in how good it's precision can get) Shortest Scanner Paint Time: 1 second Best Scan Precision: 15 db (doesn't have to stay this number) Highest Suit Profile: 60 db? (correct me if I am wrong) Biggest Scan Power: 60db - 15db = 45 (this scanner should be limited to 2 or 3 second Paint_Time) MAX amount of time a suit should ever be scanned: ~ 30 seconds ______________________________________________________________________________ I feel that this will make the scanner more intuitive, the longer you scan someone down, with stronger precision, the longer they stay lit up. You can choose, on the fly, the pan your scanner over a larger area, and the formula will automatically make the targets disappear much sooner than if you focused down. Obviously all scanners would need their cooldowns and active times tweaked. Adipem or Haerr, help me make this work? I can't spreadsheet. Know what cannot be known.
Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 676	Posted - 2015.03.17 06:42:00 - [31548] - Quote In retrospect, I would like to make 15db scans more useful against scouts than they are above, but before I start editing, I'd like you guys to look at it. Suggestions? Know what cannot be known.
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22851	Posted - 2015.03.17 06:55:00 - [31549] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Scan angle is ultimately irrelevant while spin scanning still exists. Think this might require KB/M now. Haerr switched to DS3; need someone else to test/confirm that spin-scanning still works. Kaeru runs KB/M, right? * Edit: Also Supply Depots ... those can't exist either :P I do us m/kb, and I will be happy to test it. Though lately I have noticed my active scanner is... different... The results come out SUPER late... Like a good 3 seconds after the scan is complete. I don't know why. I have a feeling it has something to do with scannerina nerfing? It can't JUST be lag, i would notice it in more than just my scan results. Hmmm ... that delay must be input-specific; I run scanners regularly and have never experienced a delay (DS3). I don't think that testing is needed; Arkena has confirmed that spin-scanning is still possible. I've experienced a delay. Quite frequently, actually, although spin scanning compensates for everything. Gallente Guide
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 22851	Posted - 2015.03.17 07:01:00 - [31550] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I'm sitting on about 130k minmatar LP. I have no interest in the apex, so I use it for the few proto suits I have. Cuts costs considerably !!!! Don't buy weapons in the LP store though.... whoa what a waste. Um... you know that for 100,000 LP, you can buy a minmatar proto.. BPO scout suit ? !! Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I have no interest in the apex Gallente Guide

xavier zor Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 950	Posted - 2015.03.17 08:02:00 - [31551] - Quote This page, with its proto arguments There is no rule or 'code' that labels proto great for planetary conquest battles only If people have the ISK, skill points and the skill to use it then why not use it? I use it when I am desperate to win, or when I pull out any assault suit But some instances proto is the only option, such as knives retired https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RGOuOaObVA<---KingThunderBolt fail montage meh
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1696	Posted - 2015.03.17 08:41:00 - [31552] - Quote Dreis Shadowweaver wrote: Today, I played Skirm for the first time in weeks. I took out my Minja, and I was disappointed in how rusty I was. HHAHAHAHAHAHAH nice one
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1696	Posted - 2015.03.17 08:46:00 - [31553] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: First Prophet wrote: How about instead you play me on a Pangea consisting of 90% Jungle and a few mountain ranges? Science for glory! Longbowmen upgrade amazingly in BNW (they keep super range) and also British spies are better than everyone else's, so I'd have a hell of a science edge. Anyhow, fight me. Wu Zetian wrote: My Chu-ko-nu will own you all.
FLAYLOCK Steve Nos Nothi 515	Posted - 2015.03.17 09:32:00 - [31554] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Quil Evrything wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I'm sitting on about 130k minmatar LP. I have no interest in the apex, so I use it for the few proto suits I have. Cuts costs considerably !!!! Don't buy weapons in the LP store though.... whoa what a waste. Um... you know that for 100,000 LP, you can buy a minmatar proto.. BPO scout suit ? !! Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I have no interest in the apex What's the problem with apex? I own a **** load of bpos and a apex suit
IMMORTAL WAR HERO NECROM0NGERS 290	Posted - 2015.03.17 11:17:00 - [31555] - Quote lol i miss playing with some of these dudes this was like 3 years ago lol Frowned upon by amateurs: The object of war is not to die for your country but make the other bastard die for his. GSP
FLAYLOCK Steve Nos Nothi 515	Posted - 2015.03.17 11:31:00 - [31556] - Quote IMMORTAL WAR HERO wrote: lol i miss playing with some of these dudes this was like 3 years ago lol Add me in game so we can squad up. BUT I must warn you I'm still rusty
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7798	Posted - 2015.03.17 12:35:00 - [31557] - Quote @ Kaeru Love it. If we can't fix spin-scanning, then let's make it work in a more balanced manner. What do you think of cutting back on teamwide scans in the process? Haerr has suggested that we have two types of scanners * Team-wide, lower quality scans * Squad-wide, higher quality scans (we could setup WP in such a way that using either would be worthwhile). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7798	Posted - 2015.03.17 12:55:00 - [31558] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Scan angle is ultimately irrelevant while spin scanning still exists. Think this might require a KB/M now. Haerr switched to DS3. Need someone else to test. Kaeru runs KB/M, right? I have tested 360 scans and can confirm they still exist with KB/M. Most scanning discussions are utterly broken because of this one ability. 360 scans break any semblance of balance almost regardless of the other stats. EDIT: Regarding your edit, supply depots aren't really such a concern. You can permarun scanners without a supply depot if you fit several of them (although honestly if you're fitting four proto EQ on a specialised logi I'm slightly less pissed about you have strong scans) and if you -are- using a supply depot for the scanning, it tethers you to it. That's not really such a concern if you're using 200m scanners but it does reduce your tactical usefulness in other ways. Still, they probably shouldn't restore capacitor. Although I wonder if fixing this would affect restocking nanohives and suchlike... Quoted as Source in Proposal Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7798	Posted - 2015.03.17 12:56:00 - [31559] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Scan angle is ultimately irrelevant while spin scanning still exists. Think this might require a KB/M now. Haerr switched to DS3. Need someone else to test. Kaeru runs KB/M, right? I have tested 360 scans and can confirm they still exist with KB/M. Most scanning discussions are utterly broken because of this one ability. 360 scans break any semblance of balance almost regardless of the other stats. Crud! But good to know. Ideas on how to fix this? The original fix (snapshot?) set scan cycle at 0.3 seconds (if I recall correctly). Any ideas why they didn't drop it 0.1? 0.1 won't fix it either. It needs to be a snapshot mechanic rather than a duration mechanic. I have successfully set up a macro on my mouse to do four spins even in the 0.3 second time period. 0.1 would make it less reliable under lag but it also opens up that issue with normal usage and still doesn't fix the problem. Unfortunately we don't seem to have the coding resources for this. Also, I'm pretty certain that this practise is very widespread. I know a number of people who use this technique and I also know for certain that some pubstomp squads I've been in refuse to run without using it. Quoted as Source in Proposal Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 7798	Posted - 2015.03.17 13:58:00 - [31560] - Quote @ Kaeru Working on the spreadsheet ... Replacing Target Visibility with this formula creates some extreme cases. I am concerned that high-profile profile units would simply be scanned for too long. I don't know that we'll be able to wholly replace Target Visibility, though I do still like the idea of weighting the stat to account for the disparity between Scanner Precision and Target Profile as well as Time Painted. If we can't find a good formula which eliminates extremes, we can still fall back on Jebus' proposed bonus (Dampeners reduce Target Visibility by a fixed percentage). Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley



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