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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
682
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Posted - 2015.03.17 18:51:00 -
[31591] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Why can't we have standard and proto closer together in terms of effectiveness?
It prevents newbies from getting slaughtered overly hard, avoids matchmaking problems, and keeps a progression. That is kind of what meta lock would do. You still have lvl 5 stronger than a lvl 1 assault due to skills. Problem we have now is not only is a lvl 5 assault stronger than a level 1 but they also have a stronger suit.
Better than meta level lock out solution to proto abuse: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=195526 (Rattati endorsed this one!)
Making standard gear not suck: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=190741&find=unread (old suggestion, but didn't get attention)
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7811
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Posted - 2015.03.17 18:56:00 -
[31592] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:@Adipem
I noticed that in your spreadsheet all scanners would have a 1 second Paint_Time, correct? I thought it would be "cool" if different scanners had longer and shorter paint times, limiting the really high precision scanners to 1 or 2 seconds, but giving the low precision ones longer time. Is 1 second enough for even low sensitivity DS3 users to be able to use the device as much as those with higher sensitivity? I don't really know, myself, just keeping the discussion alive.
Absolutely. Scan Duration can very likely be adjusted and is defined on a per-scanner basis. My goal here is to keep things simple so we can pitch it in as few words as possible. We can tweak after the fact, once we know whether or not (A) the proposal is feasible and (B) the proposal is something Rattati might be interested in considering.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1269
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:08:00 -
[31593] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this.
Agreed. Managing stomps via squad size is the better fix, IMHO. Examples: Ambush - Max 4 Dom - Max 4 Skirm - Max 6 FW - Max 18
Stealth buff to team size in FW!
Overlord of Broman
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
683
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:09:00 -
[31594] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote:@Adipem
I noticed that in your spreadsheet all scanners would have a 1 second Paint_Time, correct? I thought it would be "cool" if different scanners had longer and shorter paint times, limiting the really high precision scanners to 1 or 2 seconds, but giving the low precision ones longer time. Is 1 second enough for even low sensitivity DS3 users to be able to use the device as much as those with higher sensitivity? I don't really know, myself, just keeping the discussion alive. Absolutely. Scan Duration can very likely be adjusted and appears to be defined on a per-scanner basis. My goal here is to keep the concept simple so we can pitch it in as few words as possible. We can tweak after the fact, once we know whether or not (A) the proposal is feasible and (B) the proposal is something Rattati might be interested in considering.
That sounds really awesome, great job hammering it all out. Pushing further, I foresee witch-hunt like rejection of adding scan time discount to dampeners. Pretend I am a skeptic, how would you sell this idea to me? How does this help me, Gallente Assault (let's say), with assault rifle.
Part of the reason I ask is because this will add utility to the dampener, which is already the most useful piece of the 3 ewar modules.
Know what cannot be known.
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1269
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:12:00 -
[31595] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this.
The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. they should just try it for a week and see what happens.
First, meta-lock will not necessarily mean that you can't have something on your suit (or maybe your suit even) proto. I'm not fear-mongering. I'm just saying IMO that it is going to cause issues with wait times for everyone or maybe not full teams (who knows with CCP). IMO meta-locking will not resolve any of the issues they are trying to fix by doing it. Time shall tell since they've decided to do it.
Overlord of Broman
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Ares 514
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
1269
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:16:00 -
[31596] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this.
The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. Incorrect. Assume we have 2000 players online at any time. Those 2000 players are presently divided into 4 queues (Bush, Dom, Skirm, FW). Let's assume they're divided evenly. We have 500 players in each bin available to Scotty for matchmaking, some of whom are deployed in battle and some of whom are waiting in queue. Now let's introduce two meta levels for each queue, low security and high security. Now we have 8 queues instead of 4. Now we have 250 players per bin available to Scotty for matchmaking. That's assuming optimal and evenly divided bins. Meta locks will absolutely affect queue times. Meta locks will absolutely result in increased likelihood of seeing the same players match after match after match. Both are not signs of a healthy game. I don't want 3 versions on pub skirmish I want all pubs meta locked. You don't want meta lock then run FW pushing more players into FW the end game for those not interested in PC.
Forcing anyone who want's to use whatever fit they feel like into battle into one game mode they may or may not like that doesn't even pay ISK is not really a solution.
Overlord of Broman
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7815
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Posted - 2015.03.17 19:43:00 -
[31597] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote:@Adipem
I noticed that in your spreadsheet all scanners would have a 1 second Paint_Time, correct? I thought it would be "cool" if different scanners had longer and shorter paint times, limiting the really high precision scanners to 1 or 2 seconds, but giving the low precision ones longer time. Is 1 second enough for even low sensitivity DS3 users to be able to use the device as much as those with higher sensitivity? I don't really know, myself, just keeping the discussion alive. Absolutely. Scan Duration can very likely be adjusted and appears to be defined on a per-scanner basis. My goal here is to keep the concept simple so we can pitch it in as few words as possible. We can tweak after the fact, once we know whether or not (A) the proposal is feasible and (B) the proposal is something Rattati might be interested in considering. That sounds really awesome, great job hammering it all out. Pushing further, I foresee witch-hunt like rejection of adding scan time discount to dampeners. Pretend I am a skeptic, how would you sell this idea to me? How does this help me, Gallente Assault (let's say), with assault rifle. Part of the reason I ask is because this will add utility to the dampener, which is already the most useful piece of the 3 ewar modules.
HP Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action. Biotic Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action. Damage Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action. Precision (and even Range) Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action.
Dampeners are the only mods whose benefit can be completed and totally negated by your enemy.
If you're running two damps on a GalAssault today, and your enemy is rapid-firing 21dB scans, those two damps provide you with zero benefit whatsoever 100% of the time. In the new model, those two damps still can't beat the GalLogi's 21dB scan, but they now reduce by nearly half the duration that you're scanned. While damps might be the most useful EWAR module, they are seldom used when compared against brick; this makes running damps on non-Scout units worthwhile.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
684
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:01:00 -
[31598] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote: [...]
Proposed: GalAssault w/0 damp - Scanned 16 seconds GalAssault w/1 damp - Scanned 10.8 seconds GalAssault w/2 damp - Scanned 6.3 seconds
These numbers are the best selling point ever, this looks really good !
EDIT: I really want to ask for more scenarios, one for the Caldari Commando and one for the Gallente Scout ?? Forgive me for asking, I realize you might be busy. Whenever you have the time.
Know what cannot be known.
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Quil Evrything
Nos Nothi
1954
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:03:00 -
[31599] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Dampeners are the only mods whose benefit can be completed and totally negated by your enemy.
and I think there's a reason for that. Because damps have mostly a "works or doesnt work" effect, vs any one particular enemy.
In contrast, more shields/hp/whatever, have an incremental effect.
So the two types of modules are in completely different classes of functionaity.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7816
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:07:00 -
[31600] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Dampeners are the only mods whose benefit can be completed and totally negated by your enemy.
and I think there's a reason for that. Because damps have mostly a "works or doesnt work" effect, vs any one particular enemy. In contrast, more shields/hp/whatever, have an incremental effect. So the two types of modules are in completely different classes of functionaity.
What other modules are in the functionality class of dampeners?
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7816
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:08:00 -
[31601] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I really want to ask for more scenarios ...
One a 'bit closer to home:
Scenario: GalLogi + Focused vs MinScout
Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration.
Current: MinScout w/0 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/2 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/3 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds
Proposed: MinScout w/0 damp - Scanned 10.9 seconds MinScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.4 seconds MinScout w/2 damp - Scanned 4.2 seconds MinScout w/3 damp - Scanned 2.2 seconds
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
1291
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:11:00 -
[31602] - Quote
Quil Evrything wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
Dampeners are the only mods whose benefit can be completed and totally negated by your enemy.
and I think there's a reason for that. Because damps have mostly a "works or doesnt work" effect, vs any one particular enemy. In contrast, more shields/hp/whatever, have an incremental effect. So the two types of modules are in completely different classes of functionaity. Depends on how you look at it. I can stack 3 reactive plates and they are useless vs 1 shot from numerous weapons. All in how you look at its usefulness. 1 scanner can scan me if i dont dampen. but lots of weapons can kill me in 1 shot if I dont stack HP. both have advantages and disadvantages the way i see it.
noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
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Quil Evrything
Nos Nothi
1954
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:11:00 -
[31603] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Quil Evrything wrote:Ares 514 wrote: I strongly believe that meta-locking pubs is going to cause a ton of problems. Wait times on some meta levels are going to be horrible such that no one plays them. We don't have the numbers to do this.
The only "problems" I believe it will cause, is for people who want to play proto suits in pubs. If people cant play like that any more... that is NOT A PROBLEM :p but regaurdless, making up fear stories is lame. Incorrect. Assume we have 2000 players online at any time. .... It is not uncommon to sit in queue for 3-4 minutes during off-peak hours. The size of our playerbase does not presently support meta locks.
in that last paragraph, you started with a hard number. but then you ended it with a subjective opinion, stated as if it were a fact.
What is the basis for your final statement? I dont see antything except for your own personal preference.
You are making the completely invalid assumption that the 2000 players would somehow magically be evenly distributed across all slots.
This is incorrect, and I can prove it. Proof is given if there is only one case that does not fit.
I can offer myself as that proof. If there were options to select meta level, I would **NEVER** play full proto level.
Only reason I skilled into proto gear, was because of all the asshats playing against me in full proto.
So that contradicts the idea that the numbers would be evenly distributed.
Then, as for your implied subjective opinion about what makes dust "support"able or not, as it applies to wait times:
lets put up a survey. Ask people which they would prefer:
A) Existing wait times: up to 4 minutes to get protostomped
B) longer wait times: up to 6-7 minutes, to have a proto-free game.
Guess which one I would pick? B.
I'd like to see how many other people would also pick B.
I would in fact, PLAY MORE OFTEN if B were chosen.
Consider if there are more people out there like me. that means, we could potentially INCREASE playerbase, by eliminating protostomping. Which would actually lead to SHORTER wait times than we have now.
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
684
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:12:00 -
[31604] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I really want to ask for more scenarios ... One a 'bit closer to home: Scenario: GalLogi + Focused vs MinScout Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration. Current: MinScout w/0 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/2 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds MinScout w/3 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds Proposed: MinScout w/0 damp - Scanned 10.9 seconds MinScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.4 seconds MinScout w/2 damp - Scanned 4.2 seconds MinScout w/3 damp - Scanned 2.2 seconds
Wow.. that's really great. I'm amazed at how perfect that sounds already.. Let alone tweaked. I can't like this enough. Great work !
Know what cannot be known.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
22856
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:13:00 -
[31605] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote: Precision (and even Range) Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action.
I'm going to quibble with this.
Do they?
If you have a precision mod and the opponent damps sufficiently, then your precision mod is useless and doesn't add any value.
Scanning in general ought to be a more organic system.
Gallente Guide
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7817
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:13:00 -
[31606] - Quote
4 minute queue times are not "fine", Quil.
Increasing wait times would be irresponsible.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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First Prophet
Nos Nothi
2660
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:15:00 -
[31607] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:4 minute queue times are not "fine", Quil.
Increasing wait times would be irresponsible. 4 Minutes is nothing.
Try doing more FW.
People find this this review helpful!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7817
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:16:00 -
[31608] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: Precision (and even Range) Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action.
I'm going to quibble with this. Do they? If you have a precision mod and the opponent damps sufficiently, then your precision mod is useless and doesn't add any value. Scanning in general ought to be a more organic system.
Passive Scans are no longer binary on account of Falloff. Your mod might not add value this very second, but in the next second, your opponent may cross into your inner or middle ring -- the scenario is very much affected by EWAR mods.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7817
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:17:00 -
[31609] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:4 minute queue times are not "fine", Quil.
Increasing wait times would be irresponsible. 4 Minutes is nothing. Try doing more FW.
I don't play that garbage. Waiting for them to add team deploy and bigger paychecks (perhaps barge components XD).
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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First Prophet
Nos Nothi
2660
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:18:00 -
[31610] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:First Prophet wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:4 minute queue times are not "fine", Quil.
Increasing wait times would be irresponsible. 4 Minutes is nothing. Try doing more FW. I don't play that garbage. Waiting for team deploy. But I need you to carry me so I can get a tiger scout.
People find this this review helpful!
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
22857
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:22:00 -
[31611] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote: Precision (and even Range) Mods always add value, regardless of enemy action.
I'm going to quibble with this. Do they? If you have a precision mod and the opponent damps sufficiently, then your precision mod is useless and doesn't add any value. Scanning in general ought to be a more organic system. Passive Scans were once binary, but they are no longer on account of Falloff. Your mod might not add value this very second, but in the next second, your opponent may cross into your inner or middle ring -- the scenario is very much affected by EWAR mods.
Not really.
There are three rings, yes. However, they still operate on that same binary system.
Either you scan the target, or you do not. If the precision enhancer does not enable you to scan the target, then it does not add value.
Gallente Guide
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
684
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:24:00 -
[31612] - Quote
First Prophet wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:4 minute queue times are not "fine", Quil.
Increasing wait times would be irresponsible. 4 Minutes is nothing. Try doing more FW.
I realize this is the 10th time I do this, forgive me for that, but:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2679272#post2679272 If Factional Warfare worked like this, Team deploy and Queue syncing would be automatically addressed, Queue Times would be shorter, user experience would improve just by SEEING the FW matches going on. Best of all, apparently Special Contracts already worked this way, so it could (hopefully) be done easily. I wasn't around back then so it's second hand knowledge.
I'm willing to run Minmatar Factional with anyone who needs to. Shoot me a message in game !
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7822
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:27:00 -
[31613] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I really want to ask for more scenarios, one for the Caldari Commando and one for the Gallente Scout ?? Forgive me for asking, I realize you might be busy. Whenever you have the time.
Scenario: CalMando vs Duvolle Quantum (28dB)
Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration.
Current: CalMando w/0 damp - Scanned 20 seconds CalMando w/1 damp - Scanned 20 seconds CalMando w/2 damp - Scanned 20 seconds
Proposed: CalMando w/0 damp - Scanned 24.4 seconds CalMando w/1 damp - Scanned 16.8 seconds CalMando w/2 damp - Scanned 9.8 seconds
Scenario: GalScout vs GalLogi + Focused
Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration.
Current: GalScout w/0 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds GalScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds GalScout w/2 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds
Proposed: GalScout w/0 damp - Scanned 9.9 seconds GalScout w/1 damp - Scanned 6.6 seconds GalScout w/2 damp - Scanned 3.8 seconds
I included lots of different scenarios in the proposal: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WJuIxC-wccvG1oOPAFP7B0dcrjZVk_2Ds1utUMZAhTo/edit#gid=612407343
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
1291
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:32:00 -
[31614] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I really want to ask for more scenarios, one for the Caldari Commando and one for the Gallente Scout ?? Forgive me for asking, I realize you might be busy. Whenever you have the time. Scenario: CalMando vs Duvolle Quantum (28dB) Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration. Current: CalMando w/0 damp - Scanned 20 seconds CalMando w/1 damp - Scanned 20 seconds CalMando w/2 damp - Scanned 20 seconds Proposed: CalMando w/0 damp - Scanned 24.4 seconds CalMando w/1 damp - Scanned 16.8 seconds CalMando w/2 damp - Scanned 9.8 seconds
Scenario: GalScout vs GalLogi + Focused Assumption: Scanner paints target for 100% of Scan Duration. Current: GalScout w/0 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds GalScout w/1 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds GalScout w/2 damp - Scanned 7.5 seconds Proposed: GalScout w/0 damp - Scanned 9.9 seconds GalScout w/1 damp - Scanned 6.6 seconds GalScout w/2 damp - Scanned 3.8 seconds
Lots more sample scenarios available in the proposal: Google Doc Now if only we could have shimmer affected by dampening as well it would be perfect, lol
noi¦Ü+ö+Æßû+(V)Fac¦Üion
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7824
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:36:00 -
[31615] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:Now if only we could have shimmer affected by dampening as well it would be perfect, lol
I'm hoping he gets back to us on that with good news. Something that dynamic would be neat, but I wouldn't mind if shimmer scaled with grade of cloak (i.e. STD > ADV > PRO).
If he can't tweak shimmer quality, maybe he can tweak shimmer color:
Equip the purple cloak for daylight moods and outdoor maps. equip the black cloak for night moods and interior maps.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
685
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:36:00 -
[31616] - Quote
I REALLY love how in any given situation, scan time is buffed compared to current model if:
Target isn't damped Target is scanned for 100% of the active duration (in current proposal)
That's really great and should be something important to remind people who may be against the proposal.
Unfortunately it may be a bad time to bring up ideas. Cross reminded me Fanfest is coming up, then there will be the hangover from fanfest, plus the whole "tweaks to hotfix Echo" thing... Rattati probably has his hands full.
Know what cannot be known.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7828
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:40:00 -
[31617] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Unfortunately it may be a bad time to bring up ideas.
Not in any hurry. If/when Rattati comes knocking, we'll have a working draft on-hand. Still need to hear back from Jebus and Haerr. These guys know scans, and I guarantee they'll spot something I missed.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7828
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:45:00 -
[31618] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: There are three rings, yes. However, they still operate on that same binary system.
Maybe we'll get more rings with Legion.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
688
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Posted - 2015.03.17 20:53:00 -
[31619] - Quote
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2443878#post2443878
3 Scan rings was one of my ideas as well. Lots of people wanted true fall off. Using 3 rings based on the "new" vehicle Scan Precision Ring that Rattati gave us was a way to emulate the falloff everyone wanted. I'm lucky Cross vouched for it, though I realize the inner most ring has been a thorn to some scouts, I still think it's a good system until we can have true falloff.
On the plus side, it's just one more idea to help everyone else fight scouts, that originally came from a scout.
Know what cannot be known.
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Murt Lesp
Leviathan Battalion
289
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Posted - 2015.03.17 21:13:00 -
[31620] - Quote
Anyone else have one of those terrible play sessions? Not like being stomped or vehicle spam or any of that, but when you're constantly making mistakes and making fits that can't stand up to the current meta.
Any ADV Gal or AM scout loadouts that you guys can offer? An ADV AScR as the light weapon is the only request
Amarr by blood, but ISK buys more loyalty
I love my AScR
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