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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6123
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Posted - 2015.01.28 04:25:00 -
[28111] - Quote
@ Samantha
"Freedom of movement" could mean any number of things. I don't believe that Rattati intends to buff strafe speeds. In fact, he's spoken out against the wiggle-wiggle on a number of occasions. I was under the impression that it bugs him as much as it bugs you and me.
@ Void
Where are you getting the idea that CQC Scouts only want to only carry one weapon? Which sidearm works best with _____ comes up all the time. How can I get by with only Knives or only Shotgun hasn't come up once in 1,400 pages. With respect, I think you're off-the-mark on this one.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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voidfaction
Nos Nothi
1056
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Posted - 2015.01.28 04:50:00 -
[28112] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:@ Samantha
"Freedom of movement" could mean any number of things. I don't believe that Rattati intends to buff strafe speeds. In fact, he's spoken out against the wiggle-wiggle on a number of occasions. I was under the impression that it bugs him as much as it bugs you and me.
@ Void
Where are you getting the idea that CQC Scouts only want to only carry one weapon? Which sidearm works best with _____ comes up all the time. How can I get by with only Knives or only Shotgun hasn't come up once in 1,400 pages. With respect, I think your assumptions are off-the-mark on this one.
I get the idea from the excuse scouts are giving for backpedal speed nerf.
They are using the reason of they need to be able to close the distance on a target that evades being killed by jumping and backpedaling away out of NK/shotgun range. They are the ones saying they have no other options of attack at higher range.
Only time backpedal should be a problem for a scout is when a scout is facing another scout.
example: Min scout vs min scout then I see backpedal as a problem because you have 1 moving at same speed as other is in reverse provided both have same armor.
The APEX scouts all but the gal scout have 42+m weapon primary weapons. Gal is the only one stuck under 20m range.
My point is just that. WHY IS BACKPEDAL A PROBLEM? if we are not forced to only use the 5m weapons. Unless you are a brick tanked scout you are faster moving forward than everything except a scout is in reverse.
If you can't kill them scan them.
Meta 13
Proto Stomp G-I Scout
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
15915
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:20:00 -
[28113] - Quote
Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
6614
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:25:00 -
[28114] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
Fair enough
@Void
Dude I can back peddle out of my own PLC blastGǪ That is not right in my opinion.
As an alternative to slow back peddle I would think killing instant directional change (100% to 100% instant movement) would have the same effect. Death of the wiggle wiggle in all directions would probably make more people happier.
MOAR Ladders
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8026
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:29:00 -
[28115] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
Eh.... Maybe... I just think it's cheap that I have to inject 'x' amount of rounds into the guy when he just has to get one good swipe in. Scanner changes are great but you still don't have that much time to react, let alone get far enough away that you can do something about it.
We'll see what happens.
Llast 326 wrote:
Fair enough
@Void
Dude I can back peddle out of my own PLC blastGǪ That is not right in my opinion.
As an alternative to slow back peddle I would think killing instant directional change (100% to 100% instant movement) would have the same effect. Death of the wiggle wiggle in all directions would probably make more people happier.
Agree'd. Always drives me bonkers when a MinScout comes running up dead sprint in cloak, I start firing, then he strafes his way close enough to insta-kill. Let's be real here, no-one is dodging bullets, they're just abusing hit detection.
EDIT: Green Paper is absolutely the worst person to deal with when it comes to Nova Knives. I just leave the match whenever I see him because I know the game will just be spent being frustrated that I can't actually kill the guy.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8026
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Posted - 2015.01.28 05:55:00 -
[28116] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
Vs the auto win because of the HP disparity otherwise?
Knives have so little AA you might as well say its non existant.
With EWAR changes, not only can Assaults beat scout passive scans, but there is nothing that any scout can do to evade short range scans within NK range.
Name another shooter that has forward and backwards motion at the same speed?
If a knifing scout gets the drop on you, and you can't take them out before they kill you, you deserve to go down.
Assaults aren't in the weak spot they once were. They shouldn't have the advantage over scouts in every situation.
Dust 514 =/= Not other shooters.
Dust 514 has the longest TTK of any shooter I've played and as a result is less dependent on those factors. It's a shooter where you actually have to aim, keep target, and apply enough damage to down your target. That mechanic is completely botched when you introduce one-shot kill weaponry and it really sucks being killed by it when you have to dedicate so much effort in killing the other person.
If a knifing scout gets the drop on me, that's fine. I deserve to die. What I don't deserve is to watch the guy come running up at me, shoot at him, miss 90% of the rounds because he's somehow able to dodge bullets, and then die because I didn't do enough damage to him in the split second it takes for him to come up on scans or for me to see the shimmer of his cloak.
Not -all- Assaults are in the weak spot they once were but that doesn't suddenly mean they're able to beat everything all the time. Sentinels are still prolific and the meta is still geared toward having to combat them, something Scouts don't have to worry about as much because Sentinels will likely never see them. Assaults on the other hand still have to worry about both and it's either fit toward one meta (sentinels) or the other (scouts).
Completely different arguments. One is backpedaling because of a range limitation on sniper rifles which requires the other party to have to stand up, readjust, crouch down, wait for the sway to go away, line up the shot for a headshot (because otherwise you won't kill them), and maybe take it before the person can get back out of range or shoot them.
Nova Knives are much faster to react; you miss? Sprint forward, try again.
I haven't run knives with any sense of dedication since Chromosome because I genuinely don't enjoy having to spec into an entire specialization just to make them work (Min Scout) when any other weapon (besides heavy weapons) I can throw on any of my other suits and at least get halfway decent performance out of. Saying that a person "should give knives a whirl" is asking for an entire SP investment into both weapon, suit, and meta.
Further more, I don't see the justification in a completely overarching change like reducing backward motion when we could just extend the range of nova knives by adding in a 'charge forward' feature like you see on the Plasma Swords in Halo... It was discussed quite a bit in the past but apparently the community would rather everyone suffer for the sake of one weapon rather than one weapon change to uhh... 'Flourish'... Even though I already think it's one of the cheaper weapons in the game for the reasons mentioned.
I also don't see why a person using Nova Knives doesn't fit a weapon with range to switch to in the eventuality they botch their 'ambush'. I don't consider Nova Knives to be a primary weapon that should in any way go toe-to-toe with say a Shotgun or an Assault Rifle, let alone an HMG. Should it be viable in it's range? Certainly, but that isn't a good justification for making everyone else's playstyle suffer for the sake of that.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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mollerz
6049
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:04:00 -
[28117] - Quote
maybe I am a ******* idiot- but instead of balancing this game based on bullshit numbers- how about striving for a system that utilizes physics/proper hit detection and goes for a gritty and realistic combat experience?
I know this spaghetti code is a bit far gone to adapt that right away, but that should most definitely be the goal.
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mollerz
6050
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:14:00 -
[28118] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:myofibs and back pedal speed up next.  on a related question, since you are intimately familiar with fast movement. I have been playing BF again, 4, and there is a certain freedom, if you will, in all movement, jumping, aiming, shooting , running. Can any one, tell me, or do basic research on comparative walk speeds, jump height, camera movement, ie,pitch and yaw speed, run speed as a % of walk speed. I am trying to figure out if there is a sweet spot, that we can get too by increasing forward walk speed overall. Don't base it off of Scouts though, but if you tell me scouts are closer to bf4 than assaults, then that helps.
First of all- knifing in BF4 is way more animation based vs your game where it is hit detection based. AKA I have to hit a button at the proper time to activate a knifing matrix like battle (as of BF4)- I've knifed more people using the O button than actually hitting X (if memory serves) to back stab someone. but those animations are somewhat clunky. Do not get me started on GTA 5- another game where knifing is fun and feasible. But locked to animations that can trap you for way to long when you are trying to stab someone with a ******* minigun.
All that aside- for **** sake man- your knife game is the only thing you guys have going for you. No one does it better. If only you guys could capitalize on making your animations more sophisticated so we could have some real knife battles base don accurate hit detection. You'd have solid gold man.
Let me repeat this and make it obnoxious - YOU GUYS ACTUALLY HAVE THE BEST KNIFE COMBAT GAME EVER MADE. DO. NOT. STRAY. FROM. YOUR. SUCCESS. WITH. THAT.
As far as movement- BF4 is based on you being a regular dude wearing about 40KGs. Not a super soldier with power armor, ammo/equipment, heavy weapons, and combat drugs fueling his movement.
There is a major difference betwixt simulation movement vs your type of movement vs what your type of movement should be.
IN essence- there is no class like a scout in BF4. No soldier in BF4 is like a dust merc.
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mollerz
6050
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Posted - 2015.01.28 07:17:00 -
[28119] - Quote
Anyway- I finally designed a single turbojet engine drone with quad ions that can go to the mun in KPS.
****. YES. |
Bayeth Mal
Nos Nothi
2195
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Posted - 2015.01.28 08:51:00 -
[28120] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
I haven't run knives with any sense of dedication since Chromosome because I genuinely don't enjoy having to spec into an entire specialization just to make them work (Min Scout) when any other weapon (besides heavy weapons) I can throw on any of my other suits and at least get halfway decent performance out of. Saying that a person "should give knives a whirl" is asking for an entire SP investment into both weapon, suit, and meta.
Incorrect, I run knives (when I do play) and I have 0 sp in Min scout, I run all Gallente suits. Knives are effective on every suit, hell I've seen people have success with them on a speed tanked Sentinel. It's just on Min Scout the knives are Very Effective. You would know this if you actually used them or took the time to bother researching them. Or bugger it, if you even bothered to talk to a knifer rather than ranting.
Aeon Amadi wrote:Further more, I don't see the justification in a completely overarching change like reducing backward motion when we could just extend the range of nova knives by adding in a 'charge forward' feature like you see on the Plasma Swords in Halo...
The shop gets enough hate as it is. Asking for a buff just to us, just to make something we do stronger would result in even more forum rage and the blaming of us for all the games woes, ours is a suggesstion to remove a silly mechanic that effects every part of play across the board, including sniping.
Plus I see in this game that proposal being actually pretty OP. I sure as hell can think of some ways I'd abuse it, plus it would start to lean us toward an ability not unlike charged sprinting which even the knifers here don't want as it would be simply OP.
Aeon Amadi wrote:I also don't see why a person using Nova Knives doesn't fit a weapon with range to switch to in the eventuality they botch their 'ambush'. I don't consider Nova Knives to be a primary weapon that should in any way go toe-to-toe with say a Shotgun or an Assault Rifle, let alone an HMG. Should it be viable in it's range? Certainly, but that isn't a good justification for making everyone else's playstyle suffer for the sake of that.
When approaching an enemy, closing in the final few meters just to have them turn and desperately back pedal, keeping themselves just out side of your range for an extra second or two. You won't even have time to switch weapons let alone kill them before your 300 or so HP disappears. If it's a tanked up assault or a sentinel, nothing short of a couple of charged swipes will down them. Your ARR ain't gonna help in a point blank fire fight.
Aeon Amadi wrote:A Min Scout could easily traverse given a speed of 7.91m/s (base), charge-up knives (0.6s), and strike.
7.91 is the sprint speed. Base movement is 5.65. Considerably less, and knives cannot be charged while sprinting. Which is why people do the charge jump, requiring a hell of a lot of luck when going after a moving target. But you know what? I'm going to be even more generious and assume an even closer distance when the target spots the knifer.
If your target turns and sees you at 5m and back pedals:
Starting distance: 5m - 1.8m range of knives = 3.8m distance to cover.
Scout: 5.65 m/s (moving while charged)
Assault: 5.00 m/s (back pedal)
Speed difference: 0.65m/s
Time to cover 3.8m distance = (3.8/0.65) = 5.84 seconds
Q.E.D.
MORE. THAN. ENOUGH. TIME.
Aeon Amadi wrote:If a knifing scout gets the drop on me, that's fine. I deserve to die. What I don't deserve is to watch the guy come running up at me, shoot at him, miss 90% of the rounds because he's somehow able to dodge bullets, and then die because I didn't do enough damage to him in the split second it takes for him to come up on scans or for me to see the shimmer of his cloak.
Take the time to check what it is we're proposing rather than opening your mouth and spewing wall o'texts. What we're suggesting would also prevent bullet "dodging". As we're suggesting a reduction to back pedal AND side to side strafing through the introduction of a kind of "inertia" to movement. Wiggle Waggle is a term very often found here and railed against, even though as scouts it's one of our strongest tools in our arsenal. We're actively trying to nerf ourselves in this when it comes to play-styles we don't consider reasonable or fair.
But ultimately all of this is moot, Rattati has his usage stats and can see if Knives are OP or not.
You can use what BS math you want to try and back up your claim but as both a Sentinel and Scout I've both used the back pedal exploit as a defence against scouts and had it work, and I've had it work against me when knifing.
Simply put, you're wasting our time. Go hang out in GD, I think you'll find it more to your style of debate. Or whatever skype channel it is you randoms keep coming from.
For Rattati: I'm sure Aeon won't change his mind but hopefully the above points will be useful for your consideration.
We'll bang, OK?
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Bayeth Mal
Nos Nothi
2195
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:06:00 -
[28121] - Quote
I know I'm being rude but I'm sick of these blue tag chasers. Especially after Rattati says this:
CCP Rattati wrote:Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
We'll bang, OK?
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Pseudogenesis
Nos Nothi
1459
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Posted - 2015.01.28 09:54:00 -
[28122] - Quote
Yeah Aeon, I like what you do for the community but coming in here and talking about the fairness of knifing after admitting to not having used knives for almost 2 years is really presumptuous. Like others have said, you should give knives a go before commenting on their balance.
This in particular:
Aeon Amadi wrote:Nova Knives are much faster to react; you miss? Sprint forward, try again.
Is something nobody who actually uses knives would say. You miss, you die. Rinse and repeat every time somebody catches sight of you because hey ho, 100% backpedal speed is an unhealthy mechanic.
That said, I wouldn't be in favor of the penalty if I didn't think it would help other areas of the game too. With how strict the range parameters are in this game, backpedal needs to get toned down. And then there's all the strafing, and the other problems already mentioned. I can't think of any reason for it to stay, to be honest.
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
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Sinboto Simmons
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
7416
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Posted - 2015.01.28 10:07:00 -
[28123] - Quote
Ok yeah, I'm completely convinced PC is the only way to make any kind of respectable funding at this time. (Warlord, don't know haven't played it ^_^) I got 3 million the other day in a single match, and I was the uplink/speed hacker/bait the entire time. I'm sure a made 9mill in profits, probably more I haven't sold my salvage, and I'm sure I was last in that last one. I mean yeah I was lagging and not doing anything but hacking installations/points and dropping links but still last.
Why do I play pubs, why does anyone with proto play pubs, I wanna make a thread in the war room and wh0re myself out as a freelancer. I don't mind fighting PC all day cause the checks are phat and I'm a little skank.
Also there are a disturbingly large number of scouts that don't use dampiners in pc, proxy scanners are beautiful in the city.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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noob cavman
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
2040
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 10:20:00 -
[28124] - Quote
Back pedaling is also the only time I still have the blue shield effect
I want to be a caveman!
Ccp: LEGION
Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
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Bayeth Mal
Nos Nothi
2200
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 11:08:00 -
[28125] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Ok yeah, I'm completely convinced PC is the only way to make any kind of respectable funding at this time. (Warlord, don't know haven't played it ^_^) I got 3 million the other day in a single match, and I was the uplink/speed hacker/bait the entire time. I'm sure a made 9mill in profits, probably more I haven't sold my salvage, and I'm sure I was last in that last one. I mean yeah I was lagging and not doing anything but hacking installations/points and dropping links but still last.
Why do I play pubs, why does anyone with proto play pubs, I wanna make a thread in the war room and wh0re myself out as a freelancer. I don't mind fighting PC all day cause the checks are phat and I'm a little skank.
Also there are a disturbingly large number of scouts that don't use dampiners in pc, proxy scanners are beautiful in the city.
That assumes you're winning. If you're on the losing team it's not so profitable.
We'll bang, OK?
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Sinboto Simmons
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
7421
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 12:06:00 -
[28126] - Quote
Bayeth Mal wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Ok yeah, I'm completely convinced PC is the only way to make any kind of respectable funding at this time. (Warlord, don't know haven't played it ^_^) I got 3 million the other day in a single match, and I was the uplink/speed hacker/bait the entire time. I'm sure a made 9mill in profits, probably more I haven't sold my salvage, and I'm sure I was last in that last one. I mean yeah I was lagging and not doing anything but hacking installations/points and dropping links but still last.
Why do I play pubs, why does anyone with proto play pubs, I wanna make a thread in the war room and wh0re myself out as a freelancer. I don't mind fighting PC all day cause the checks are phat and I'm a little skank.
Also there are a disturbingly large number of scouts that don't use dampiners in pc, proxy scanners are beautiful in the city. That assumes you're winning. If you're on the losing team it's not so profitable.
indeed, but we are so I'm happy at the moment, because ISK. -ú_-ú
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8052
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Posted - 2015.01.28 13:41:00 -
[28127] - Quote
Bayeth Mal wrote:
Incorrect, I run knives (when I do play) and I have 0 sp in Min scout, I run all Gallente suits. Knives are effective on every suit, hell I've seen people have success with them on a speed tanked Sentinel. It's just on Min Scout the knives are Very Effective. You would know this if you actually used them or took the time to bother researching them. Or bugger it, if you even bothered to talk to a knifer rather than ranting.
So, if they're effective, then what's the problem, exactly..? Do you want them to go from Effective and Very Effective to Very Effective and OP?
Bayeth Mal wrote:
The shop gets enough hate as it is. Asking for a buff just to us, just to make something we do stronger would result in even more forum rage and the blaming of us for all the games woes, ours is a suggesstion to remove a silly mechanic that effects every part of play across the board, including sniping.
Plus I see in this game that proposal being actually pretty OP. I sure as hell can think of some ways I'd abuse it, plus it would start to lean us toward an ability not unlike charged sprinting which even the knifers here don't want as it would be simply OP.
Then why propose it?
Bayeth Mal wrote:
When approaching an enemy, closing in the final few meters just to have them turn and desperately back pedal, keeping themselves just out side of your range for an extra second or two. You won't even have time to switch weapons let alone kill them before your 300 or so HP disappears. If it's a tanked up assault or a sentinel, nothing short of a couple of charged swipes will down them. Your ARR ain't gonna help in a point blank fire fight.
The only legitimate feedback given in response that didn't amount to 'you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong'. I appreciate the input, let's see what you have to say about the mathematical bit to provide more than anecdotal evidence however (bearing in mind that mind was anecdotal up until the math as well).
Bayeth Mal wrote:
7.91 is the sprint speed. Base movement is 5.65. Considerably less, and knives cannot be charged while sprinting. Which is why people do the charge jump, requiring a hell of a lot of luck when going after a moving target. But you know what? I'm going to be even more generious and assume an even closer distance when the target spots the knifer.
If your target turns and sees you at 5m and back pedals:
Starting distance: 5m - 1.8m range of knives = 3.8m distance to cover.
Scout: 5.65 m/s (moving while charged)
Assault: 5.00 m/s (back pedal)
Speed difference: 0.65m/s
Time to cover 3.8m distance = (3.8/0.65) = 5.85 seconds
Q.E.D.
MORE. THAN. ENOUGH. TIME.
I don't see a reason why you would walk up with base movement speed if sprinting is available. Sprint to the target, charge, then strike. Don't sprint to short range, continue to walk from there, then charge. Mathematics assume that the target sees you, which is subject for debate based on the person and entirely circumstantial. This is also assuming that their precision beats your profile, which if you're running a 300 EHP fit, you're likely going to have a few profile dampeners (maybe), which requires him to have precision enhancers - this spaghetti's into multiple niche fits and exceptional theory-crafting that will never be consistent with -all- cases.
This is also assuming you're not using a cloak at the time, which would be invaluable toward stealth capabilities and further limit the visibility that the target has... Which I assume is not facing you.
Even still, stating that they're back pedaling immediately assumes that they are, in fact, facing you, and not turning to engage you in the eventuality that they did, in fact, see you. In which case, you would have to consider turn speeds, variable/dynamic movement (the guy moving forward then strafing during the turn and -THEN- backpedaling), and then facing you/engaging before you can kill him.
This would require extensive testing both in-game and mathematically to be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt that every single time the player is going to get away in the time necessary. I'd also appreciate it if you didn't use ALL CAPS BECAUSE IT GIVES ME THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU'RE A RAGING KITTEN HOLE WHEN I AM TRYING TO GIVE THIS CRAZY THEORY A CHANCE.
Bayeth Mal wrote:
-Snipped BS-
Hostile, aggressive response that completely over shadows whatever point you were trying to make by slightly irritating me with sparse amounts of feedback beyond "go look" and "you're wrong" except in the mathematical formulas, which is still subject for debate. You then assume that I'm not going to change my mind, tell me "to hang out in GD or whatever skype channel it is you randoms keep coming from" and then try to convince a dev that my feedback doesn't matter.
Explain to me why I should not consider this whole response a massive troll..?
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8052
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 13:51:00 -
[28128] - Quote
Bayeth Mal wrote:I know I'm being rude but I'm sick of these blue tag chasers. Especially after Rattati says this: CCP Rattati wrote:Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
Yes, you are being rude, and you'll probably notice that I was posting in response to Arkenai earlier... Just as well, there's nothing wrong with "blue tag chasers" because in the end, blue/white tags are the only ones I really need to convince. Not you.
http://i.imgur.com/IZPcV.jpg
Pseudogenesis wrote:Yeah Aeon, I like what you do for the community but coming in here and talking about the fairness of knifing after admitting to not having used knives for almost 2 years is really presumptuous. Like others have said, you should give knives a go before commenting on their balance. This in particular: Aeon Amadi wrote:Nova Knives are much faster to react; you miss? Sprint forward, try again.
Is something nobody who actually uses knives would say. You miss, you die. Rinse and repeat every time somebody catches sight of you because hey ho, 100% backpedal speed is an unhealthy mechanic. That said, I wouldn't be in favor of the penalty if I didn't think it would help other areas of the game too. With how strict the range parameters are in this game, backpedal needs to get toned down for the sake of ranged weapons. And then there's all the strafing, and the other problems already mentioned. I can't think of any reason for it to stay, to be honest.
Sure, I'll absolutely admit to that. The weight of my feedback is somewhat bias considering that as an Assault player who does not use Nova Knives but has problems dealing with them. Is it presumptuous? Perhaps. I can, however, look at numbers and get a rough idea of what's going on and collaborate that with my own gameplay experience. I know that Standard Nova Knives as a base do 200-230 damage with either a x2 or x3 multiplier for full charge (I get it and the Scrambler Rifle mixed up at times) and I know that even standard knives can still shell out up to 800-1200 damage if both swipes hit. Which is enough to kill most anything besides some Sentinels.
I personally disagree with the argument toward backpedaling/strafing if only because I don't really see it as that big of a deal for anything -other- than a few niche weapons (Nova Knives, Shotguns, Sniper Rifles). Things that can be changed on a case by case basis. Why? Because when I raised nine levels of hell about the movement speed changes back in July, 2013 it was met with stark resistance. I initially supported what the lot of you are proposing now, but the general community favored the faster speeds.
I am totally willing to recant my stand-points if given reasonable arguments that justifiably counter the arguments I am proposing. I will not, however, recant my arguments in the eventuality that someone like Bayeth Mal comes in like a raging kitten and assumes that I am doing this -COMPLETELY- out of favoritism toward my play-style. I would -LOVE- to see a video of this phenomenon happening and will totally watch if a link is provided, however I am far too lazy to try and search all of Youtube and Google for that video 
EDIT: This post in particular is one you'll find most appealing.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6129
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:03:00 -
[28129] - Quote
Weren't you a Scout when we met in Chromosome, Aeon? The new tricks are not much different from the old. If you wanted to, you could pick it back up quickly. You've seen one side of the coin, which has value, but you're speculating as to the nature of the other. Hands-on experience is the surest way for you to understand the factors in play from both sides.
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Also I was initially tending to be opposed to reducing backpedal speed but having knifed I'm seeing it as silly and see no reason for it to remain.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8055
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 14:09:00 -
[28130] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Weren't you a Scout when we met in Chromosome, Aeon? The new tricks are not much different from the old. If you wanted to, you could pick it back up quickly. We've seen one side of the coin, which has value, but you're speculating as the nature of the other. Hands-on experience is the surest way for you to understand the factors in play. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Also I was initially tending to be opposed to reducing backpedal speed but having knifed I'm seeing it as silly and see no reason for it to remain.
Perhaps. I quit the scouting BS because everyone got this massive hard-on for thinking that I... never scouted? Or something? I advocated a lot of Scouts prior to the elections and then Appia chimed in with her pearls of wisdom and everyone flocked over to her, lawl. Anyway, pointless political bickering aside... #ShottyScoutHipster
The thing about Arkena's quote though is that, again, I don't see this as a justifiable reason to completely change everyone's movement speed in the game to benefit CQC weaponry. I think it would cause more harm than good to be completely honest and as Bayeth Mal said earlier (probably the only thing of value out of that entire post) is that it -would- be a nerf to Scouts who have been asking for a balance check now that EWAR is in a better place.
Which isn't at all reasonable. I was, initially against it because of the timing. A lot of scouts were asking for it -immediately- after Assault EWAR got buffed and I felt we needed time to see the effects. But now I'm starting to think that there's other things that can be done, like reducing the effects that cloaking has on scan range and what not. That's perfectly fine, Scouts need to be able to see potential threats other than their target if they're expected to dispatch them and... well, live.
I digress.
Long story short, I need hardcore evidence that it's -WORTH- the change to movement speed across such a large spectrum for the sake of a handful of weapons that could be tweaked in more meaningful ways.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8055
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:11:00 -
[28131] - Quote
On another note, here's a random $5 Aurum code I'm not using. First come first serve.
78G6-AKN9-DA4P
1. From the PlayStationNetwork icon on the XMB, select 'PlayStationStore'
2. Select the 'Redeem Codes' icon located in the upper right of the screen.
3. Enter code and click 'Continue'.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Samantha Hunyz
Mannar Focused Warfare
Gallente Federation
132
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:15:00 -
[28132] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:On another note, here's a random $5 Aurum code I'm not using. First come first serve.
78G6-AKN9-DA4P
1. From the PlayStationNetwork icon on the XMB, select 'PlayStationStore'
2. Select the 'Redeem Codes' icon located in the upper right of the screen.
3. Enter code and click 'Continue'.
Holy crap, it worked! Thanks!
When I look down my scope, all I see are dead people.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21393
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 14:27:00 -
[28133] - Quote
but i am a biased forum terribad
Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!
Gallente Guide to DUST
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6129
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:34:00 -
[28134] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:but i am a biased forum terribad
stop pretending my word is gospel truth
I quoted you because (A) you speaks Aeon's Gallente/AR language and (B) you reported a change in perception after using knives, which is precisely what I recommended to Aeon.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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J0LLY R0G3R
And the ButtPirates
1935
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Posted - 2015.01.28 14:38:00 -
[28135] - Quote
Bayeth Mal wrote:I know I'm being rude but I'm sick of these blue tag chasers. Especially after Rattati says this: CCP Rattati wrote:Guys, if NK kills were remotely a problem, or a potential problem, with slightly lower backpedal, I wouldn't be advocating for them. With Scanning changes, they became less effective, but I want all styles, even niche, to be able to flourish if they want to. It's not my personal style, but I appreciate it and get killed by novas every 10 battles, maybe. Stats say the same. We should be proud of our NKers if anything. I tend to think "good kill", versus "**** you" for most other kills.
A bluetag chaser u say. No clue who that could be.. XD
But just ignore the guy and soon enough he'll be off testing the gravity of the planet by jumping out of the mcc over and over.
That's still one of my fav stories.
Well until another blue tag shows up. XD
TLDR : I lied, I have at least 3 more.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6130
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Posted - 2015.01.28 15:00:00 -
[28136] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Perhaps. I quit the scouting BS because everyone got this massive hard-on for thinking that I... never scouted? Or something? I advocated a lot of Scouts prior to the elections and then Appia chimed in with her pearls of wisdom and everyone flocked over to her, lawl. Anyway, pointless political bickering aside... #ShottyScoutHipster
I don't what Appia has to do with this situation, but if it is any consolation, she's gone. She's neither posted nor signed on in months. Either way, we aren't responsible for whatever she did or didn't do, and whatever she did or didn't do has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Appia and I butted on heads on nearly everything, sometimes nastily, but we made conscious effort to remain on point when doing so.
Aeon Amadi wrote:
... long story short, I need hardcore evidence that it's -WORTH- the change to movement speed across such a large spectrum for the sake of a handful of weapons that could be tweaked in more meaningful ways.
The only "hardcore evidence" I can think to offer you is that backpedal speed being slower than forward movement speed is a mechanic common to every other shooter; I think it improbable that all other studios are doing it wrong. I could offer you firsthand accounts, opinions and explanations from the career-long knifing experts, but that isn't "hardcore evidence"; it is "expert opinion". If "hardcore evidence" is what you require to be convinced, then I don't think we're capable of convincing you. Another option is for you to gather evidence on your own, like you've done with so many other things, and see for yourself the problems knifers are facing on account of backpedal speed.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
21393
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 15:26:00 -
[28137] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:you speaks Aeon's Gallente/AR language
Vote 'Keshava' for a new Gallente vehicle name!
Gallente Guide to DUST
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8068
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Posted - 2015.01.28 15:32:00 -
[28138] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I don't what Appia has to do with this situation, but if it is any consolation, she's gone. She's neither posted nor signed on in months. Either way, we aren't responsible for whatever she did or didn't do, and whatever she did or didn't do has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Appia and I butted on heads on nearly everything, sometimes nastily, but we made conscious effort to remain on point when doing so.
Appia and I butted heads a lot more than I honestly care to admit. She was incredibly stubborn and unwilling to take into account anyone else's feedback, called everyone disagreed with her ********, etc. I quit scouting because the Gallente Assault became a thing. I always had a preference for Gallente and I preferred Assault, it just wasn't available at the time. In the same sense, Scouting was also something I did because of the company I had at the time (another guy who loved shotguns and what not) and we just drove around the maps in an LAV, bailed out, shotgunned the ever living hell out of some poor guy, then jumped back in and continued on our way.
I wasn't a competitive player during Chromosome, I had no interest in being a competitive player during Chromosome. I really didn't care for balance and I was really just doing it for the enjoyment of the game. That changed.
Aeon Amadi wrote:
... long story short, I need hardcore evidence that it's -WORTH- the change to movement speed across such a large spectrum for the sake of a handful of weapons that could be tweaked in more meaningful ways.
The only "hardcore evidence" I can think to offer you is that backpedal speed being slower than forward movement speed is a mechanic common to every other shooter; I think it improbable that all other studios are doing it wrong. I could offer you firsthand accounts, opinions and explanations from the career-long knifing experts, but that isn't "hardcore evidence"; it is "expert opinion". If "hardcore evidence" is what you require to be convinced, then I don't think we're capable of convincing you. Another option is for you to gather evidence on your own, like you've done with so many other things, and see for yourself the problems knifers are facing on account of backpedal speed.[/quote]
That's not evidence so much as a comparison point though, yanno? Arguably, Dust 514 should be -LESS- like other shooters because it will never be able to compete with those shooters. Dust 514 is it's own unique brand of shooter and I feel that trying to shoehorn it into the "every other shooter" category would harm what makes it unique. Not to call a slippery slope argument (which is a fallacy) but where do we stop with propositions to make Dust 514 like other shooters?
Along the lines of movement speed changes, there are a lot of factors to consider:
- Does TTK increase or decrease?
- Are LAV drive-bys easier or harder?
- What weapons would affected by this change?
- What suits/playstyles would be affected by this change?
- Can this change be accomplished by any other means?
- Is this a hammer or a scalpel change?
- Do the numbers validate that this is the optimal change that needs to happen?
- Is this change meaningful and functional?
If the direct correlation toward reasoning for backpedal/strafe speed needing to be changed is knifers, why not change the knives themselves? That's all I'm asking.
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:
A bluetag chaser u say. No clue who that could be.. XD
He just wants attention, however he can get it.
But just ignore the guy and soon enough he'll be off testing the gravity of the planet by jumping out of the mcc over and over.
That's still one of my fav stories.
Well until another blue tag shows up. XD
-Sigh.-
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
6132
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Posted - 2015.01.28 15:37:00 -
[28139] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:you speaks Aeon's Gallente/AR language
Am I off, here? I thought you were on the Gallente All-Star Team with Cat Merc, Aeon and Sgt Kirk :-)
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Aeon Amadi
Chimera Core
8068
|
Posted - 2015.01.28 15:41:00 -
[28140] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:you speaks Aeon's Gallente/AR language I thought you were on the Gallente All-Star Team with Cat Merc, Aeon and Sgt Kirk :-)
Arkena loosely follows the flavor of the month and switches up a lot based on whatever crazy idea he feels like trolling people with. We butt heads quite a bit.
Cat Merc and Sgt Kirk are probably the more Gallente of the bunch.
I quit rolling Gallente when respecs became available because the Minmatar are better overall.
BTW: What's a good amount of deaths you figure to run knives until "I get it"..? 10? 100? 1000? Likely won't do 1000 but I'll certainly give it a go either way.
Sniper range nerf did nothing but make it harder to counter-snipe redliners. That and open up for really stupid feedback
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