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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
20724
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Posted - 2015.01.07 07:16:00 -
[27271] - Quote
sir RAVEN WING wrote:
#4 - Minmatar Scout. Faster, can use Kincats easily. Extremely fast stamina re-gen and a bonus that still doesn't make sense.
Implying the Minscout requires the least skill to knife in this thread is probably an excellent way to get stabbed.
Sometimes, one just has an overwhelming urge to throw a potato at someone.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
14274
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Posted - 2015.01.07 08:56:00 -
[27272] - Quote
Backpedal speed, please explain in detail why it "needs" to be reduced.
Scouts do move faster than everyone else.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Cat Merc
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
14341
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Posted - 2015.01.07 11:40:00 -
[27273] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Backpedal speed, please explain in detail why it "needs" to be reduced.
Scouts do move faster than everyone else.
IIRC the last time I asked about this the argument was that it allows you to get out of bad situations you are supposed to die from.
I.E a shotgunner appeared in front of you and is pumping you full of plasma, or a nova knifer wants to gut you.
Feline overlord of all humans
Assault Conglomerate: Because we don't shave
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noob cavman
And the ButtPirates
1964
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:08:00 -
[27274] - Quote
Back pedaling has for me been a major cause of the blue shield where it indicates a hit but the red takes no damage. Thats the only time I see it now with either Shotty or knives. Not gonna argue moving backwards as fast as you can forwards is silly.
It is but its a game and mechanics are what ever the dev team has in mind for the game ( apparently we are mega tall super soliders anyway) but yes back pedaling has saved many a merc from a good gutting or old fashioned face surgery.
Add the fact these weapon's have very little range.
I want to be a caveman!
Ccp: LEGION
Gö+GöüGö+ n+¦pâ+(`-ö´)n+ën+¦ Gö+GöüGö+
Full steam ahead into the enemies booty yarrr.
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Sinboto Simmons
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
7325
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Posted - 2015.01.07 14:47:00 -
[27275] - Quote
Would also like to again remind that the measurements in game play differently than would suggest on paper as well.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
6463
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Posted - 2015.01.07 15:06:00 -
[27276] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Backpedal speed, please explain in detail why it "needs" to be reduced.
Scouts do move faster than everyone else.
Well aside from the fact that moving backwards as fast as forwards does not make much sense, there are a few mechanical issues with it.
Most often around these parts we look at the up close and personal viewpoint, Knives and SG, because it is most appear ant in that range but it affects all engagements to a degree.
The fact that scouts are the fastest (except the Amarr scout who is a tad slower than the Min Assault I believe) gives us an advantage moving backwards (yes many of us don't believe that is fair) but it also proves how much of a problem it can be if we are out maneuvered by a back peddling heavy 
Going to try my best to explain this without videoGǪ because no capture card.
1. CQC - Shotty and NK is trumped by even a RR as soon as the enemy starts to move backwards. Even as a Minja my forward movement does not cover 2m quickly enough to counter spool up time of the RR and full backwards motion of the suit using it. Now if they are using a weapon that requires no spool up I'm sure you can see how that would go. Yes you gain ground on someone slower than you but not fast enough that HP don't trump speed. (this may contribute to King HP, or simply be a symptom of it.) And yes I have back peddled and killed people with a PLC because I can back peddle out of my own blast radius 
2. Long range - If I am at a distance I can take say a LR or RR and back peddle to stay in my optimum keeping my optimum time open for a very extensive amount of time. The faster my suit the better this is. An open area with no cover and a basic ability to lead a target means I win any engagement regardless of the speed of my enemy. Domination maps are a great place to try this one out. You can actually fry a squad if the have no cover or vehicles
3. Circle Strafe or Figure Eight Strafe - this is why it is the most effective form of strafing in the game. Because your backwards movement is the same as your forwards movement you have no need to compensate your aiming while your enemy is left to either do the same or try to out alpha damage you. In which case you are looking at them getting in close, which you can simply back up to delay their effective range.
Essentially if scouts have the best advantage through speed and we complain about this as a problem, should that not indicate it as an issue?
Anything else I may have missed, or anybody find this lacking in explanation or experience?
MOAR Ladders
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1532
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:07:00 -
[27277] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Backpedal speed, please explain in detail why it "needs" to be reduced.
Scouts do move faster than everyone else.
From Modern Warfare to Garden Warfare and all points in between, backpedal speed being slower than forward movement is a mechanic common to the vast majority of First Person Shooters as well as other PvP games like WoW and League of Legends. As to why this theme so consistently recurs, I can only offer guess:
1) To maintain balance between melee and ranged builds.
2) To simulate high-ground and low-ground in a melee v melee setting.
3) To encourage planning and the use of cover.
4) To assign consequence to the decision to advance from cover (e.g. Leeroy Jenkins)
5) To celebrate the fact that man is neither crab nor lobster.
As far as Dust gameplay goes, firsthand experience running nova knives is the surest way to develop concern about 100% backpedal speed. Scouts are indeed quick sprinters, but knifing is all about walk speed. Even naked, the fastest of Scouts does not walk that much faster than the slowest of armor-laden targets. To demonstrate with maths, walk speed comparisons can be found here: Spreadsheet!
Gaining 1 m/s (or even 2) on a backpedaling target may as well be an eternity to a knifer whose TTK is well under a second.
Suggestion: Set backpedal speed = strafe speed (80% of walk speed)
Alternative: Set forward movement speed = 120% when nova knives are equipped
Postscript: I can't count how many times I've been outplayed, flanked proper or carelessly walked into a knifer's trap and emerged victorious on sole account of backpedal speed. Post-falloff, I find it happening more frequently. Simply by moving forward, my inner ring alerts me to a pursuer's presence well before he gets within range. If I spot him, I need only insta-spin and backpedal. I've less need post-falloff to check my six, and I've high odds of success against a knifer even if he does everything right.
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
6464
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Posted - 2015.01.07 16:24:00 -
[27278] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:
5) To celebrate the fact that man is neither crab nor lobster.
So many Knife fights go like this
You all knew I would post it 
MOAR Ladders
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Sinboto Simmons
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
7327
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Posted - 2015.01.07 18:04:00 -
[27279] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:sir RAVEN WING wrote:
#4 - Minmatar Scout. Faster, can use Kincats easily. Extremely fast stamina re-gen and a bonus that still doesn't make sense.
Implying the Minscout requires the least skill to knife in this thread is probably an excellent way to get stabbed.
I also do not believe anyone else thinks out of all the scouts the Minja has no problems fitting kinetic catalyzers.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Haerr
2170
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Posted - 2015.01.07 18:20:00 -
[27280] - Quote
The Gallente Lag Facility makes me do this:
*Leave Squad*
*Leave Match*
"This game runs so smoothly on the hardware it was designed for! Amazeballs!" XD
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Haerr
2170
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Posted - 2015.01.07 18:22:00 -
[27281] - Quote
"N+ñ, men int +ñ ja bitter e"
Might check back in tomorrow... o7
"This game runs so smoothly on the hardware it was designed for! Amazeballs!" XD
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
390
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Posted - 2015.01.07 18:50:00 -
[27282] - Quote
Basically, trying to get within range of someone who is running backwards and shooting is always going to result in a loss unless you have enough HP to survive the 3 to 4 seconds it takes to reach them.
Should a person who is back peddling always win that type of engagement?
The inertia and change of momentum people have been asking for are at the core of the issue. Right now if you try to do a leap kill with Nova Knives, if the opponent stops dead in his tracks you fly way over their heads. Worse still, If they back peddle, the vector change is instantaneous putting you in harms way.
The most elegant way to fix the issue is loss of speed while changing directions. Without that, reducing back peddle speed is a small way to help issues like Hit Detection and instant loss of tracking ability (when you are point blank with someone and they change directions suddenly, they usually go completely off camera and sometimes you can't even tell which side they passed you on. That's how fast direction change is in Dust). It also helps with the situation Vitantur described, where a player spins around and walks backwards while shooting. This situation is generally impossible to win. Who should have the advantage in this situation, though? Someone who checks their six deserves to be rewarded in some way. Even with that said, I feel that the back peddle speed is too strong right now and should be significantly less than it currently is.
I don't think someone who is back peddling while shooting at a shotgunner or Nova Knifer should lose often. I think they still deserve some advantage over someone who chooses a short range attack form. However right now that advantage is so strong that even players who resort to that strategy as a last moment ditch effort still win 90% of the time. I would also add that in any pvp environment moving forward or backwards with a strategy should be more rewarding than moving backwards in panic. It's this paniced backwards movement that plagues the Nova Knife in a frustrating way. |
Llast 326
An Arkhos
6468
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Posted - 2015.01.07 19:44:00 -
[27283] - Quote
Haerr wrote:The Gallente Lag Facility makes me do this:
*Leave Squad*
*Leave Match*
Playing since Open BataGǪ still don't know how to leave a match 
MOAR Ladders
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
395
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Posted - 2015.01.07 19:54:00 -
[27284] - Quote
Llast 326 wrote:Haerr wrote:The Gallente Lag Facility makes me do this:
*Leave Squad*
*Leave Match*
Playing since Open BataGǪ still don't know how to leave a match
It involves L1 when you are on the secret menu. Space bar if you are on keyboard. Took me FOREVER to figure out it was space bar, of all things. OMG !! |
sir RAVEN WING
Kaalmayoti Warzone Control
2472
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:12:00 -
[27285] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:sir RAVEN WING wrote:
#4 - Minmatar Scout. Faster, can use Kincats easily. Extremely fast stamina re-gen and a bonus that still doesn't make sense.
Implying the Minscout requires the least skill to knife in this thread is probably an excellent way to get stabbed. I also do not believe anyone else thinks out of all the scouts the Minja has no problems fitting kinetic catalyzers.
I had a kincat on mine... was that bad?
(Yes, I used a Minja with a AScR and SP.)
Just now am I starting to make the fits I had back in beta.
Deaths because of Minja with NKs: 1
How he killed me: Stood by a CRU with charged NKs waiting for someone to spawn. This was rather sad in my eyes.
Minja Kills: 14
Just circle them, they may run faster, but that doesn't mean they react faster! 
Anyway, Minja does take some skill, not too sure wehter Galscout is easier or not, Calscout isn't... Made for rifles by the looks of it. Amarr scout... there should be no question on how much skill it takes to stab with these.
You better not cry. You'd better not pout, I'm telling you why. Raven Claws is coming to town!
I <3 my Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1541
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:20:00 -
[27286] - Quote
Still not sure what it is you're trying to get at, Raven. Is there a point you wish to make? |
voidfaction
Nos Nothi
935
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:33:00 -
[27287] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:sir RAVEN WING wrote:
#4 - Minmatar Scout. Faster, can use Kincats easily. Extremely fast stamina re-gen and a bonus that still doesn't make sense.
Implying the Minscout requires the least skill to knife in this thread is probably an excellent way to get stabbed. I also do not believe anyone else thinks out of all the scouts the Minja has no problems fitting kinetic catalyzers.
Faster, can use Kincats easier than a cal scout is how I would have worded it. still same idea
The more skillful in my eyes would be the one with 25% less dmg able to still get the kill.
You wouldn't say the gal scout takes the most skill at being hidden would you?
If you can't kill them scan them.
Meta 13
Proto Stomp G-I Scout
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
7022
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:38:00 -
[27288] - Quote
Vintantur answered the backpedal question best.
I can't for the life of me understand how this is even a question. Nearly EVERY other game gets it, I can't even think of another game than Dust that treats backwards/forwards movement the same.
Back Pedal = Forward Walk makes about as much sense as Strafe = Forward Walk or Jump = 0 Stamina.
They are all broken movement mechanics, so why does one get special treatment?
Thunderbolt. verb and noun.
"James thunderbolted in his pants."
"I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
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One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
7024
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:48:00 -
[27289] - Quote
Lol.
Jolly's trolls are the best!
Thunderbolt. verb and noun.
"James thunderbolted in his pants."
"I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
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Sinboto Simmons
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
7340
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Posted - 2015.01.07 20:57:00 -
[27290] - Quote
We truly need to start thinking of ways to fix this pubstomping problem....
Just ran a test in a basic Minja (with I'll admit two protos in my four man squad, although one was apex) to see what happened in multiple matches, to simulate being a new player.
2/8 weren't absolute curbstomps, it was disgusting, full corp squads in proto in all but two matches. (Take a guess)
I'll not fault anyone for using the gear they worked for, but this is just cringe worthy.
We've got to put our heads together and stop this, or this game will be stuck in a hole.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Vitantur Nothus
Nos Nothi
1541
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Posted - 2015.01.07 21:12:00 -
[27291] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:
We've got to put our heads together and stop this, or this game will be stuck in a hole.
Absolutely agree. Top tier players tend to run with other top tier players, and Scotty has a hard a time counterbalancing against the resulting super squads. I suspect the surest bet would be a squad size reduction to 4. Detailed explanation here and here.
On a related note, I was placed into match yesterday on the same side as Milkman's super stomp squad. I don't much care to play these matches, whether with or against these guys. Before their two blaster tanks hit the ground, before I could even backout, I watched the killfeed as one red name after another left the battle. I was glad to be reminded that I'm not the only who'd rather do something else than play through a fight broken in advance. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
7027
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Posted - 2015.01.07 21:16:00 -
[27292] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:We truly need to start thinking of ways to fix this pubstomping problem....
Just ran a test in a basic Minja (with I'll admit two protos in my four man squad, although one was apex) to see what happened in multiple matches, to simulate being a new player.
2/8 weren't absolute curbstomps, it was disgusting, full corp squads in proto in all but two matches. (Take a guess)
I'll not fault anyone for using the gear they worked for, but this is just cringe worthy.
We've got to put our heads together and stop this, or this game will be stuck in a hole.
This is the major reason I don't play often anymore.
Rattati mentioned teir capped game modes, which I think would help.
Thunderbolt. verb and noun.
"James thunderbolted in his pants."
"I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
397
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Posted - 2015.01.07 21:27:00 -
[27293] - Quote
I'm honestly not looking forward to meta locks AT ALL.
I love going into a match with my basic scout and walking out with some proto pelts. It's literally what I play for these days. I still need so much work to improve though. |
One Eyed King
Land of the BIind
7029
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Posted - 2015.01.07 21:31:00 -
[27294] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:I'm honestly not looking forward to meta locks AT ALL.
I love going into a match with my basic scout and walking out with some proto pelts. It's literally what I play for these days. I still need so much work to improve though.
I don't think it will be restrictive in all Pubs though, but who knows what they decide to do because of the small player base.
Thunderbolt. verb and noun.
"James thunderbolted in his pants."
"I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
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Pseudogenesis
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
1262
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Posted - 2015.01.07 21:43:00 -
[27295] - Quote
Yeah, I'm curious to see what they do with meta locks moving forward. I don't think there will be multiple locks for public contracts because it would fracture the playerbase way too much. If anything they'll put a lock on just publics to encourage the big slayers to move into FW and PC, which I honestly might be okay with.
Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ
I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
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Sinboto Simmons
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
7343
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Posted - 2015.01.07 22:05:00 -
[27296] - Quote
Pseudogenesis wrote:Yeah, I'm curious to see what they do with meta locks moving forward. I don't think there will be multiple locks for public contracts because it would fracture the playerbase way too much. If anything they'll put a lock on just publics to encourage the big slayers to move into FW and PC, which I honestly might be okay with.
Although honestly I cringe a bit at the thought of more corps in fw, that's a personal thought though.
Hopefully this starts as a series of small test (still doing beta testing huh?) I'd prefer ambush first, then wait for an honest response from the mass.
After the titan class wave of tears anyway....in any case having a space for newer players, or those who aren't interested in constantly having to run their best gear or get curbed, to simply have fun and earn isk would benefit many I think.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
397
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Posted - 2015.01.07 22:10:00 -
[27297] - Quote
I would point out that once a team is getting stomped, even if they all switch to proto, the stomping doesn't stop.
When a match starts looking one sided, it's easy to blame the gear, but more often than not, even if the losing team switches to full proto, nothing changes. |
Sinboto Simmons
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
7346
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Posted - 2015.01.07 22:22:00 -
[27298] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:I would point out that once a team is getting stomped, even if they all switch to proto, the stomping doesn't stop.
When a match starts looking one sided, it's easy to blame the gear, but more often than not, even if the losing team switches to full proto, nothing changes.
That's more of a mentality of the players than a problem we can fix through any feature.
It wasn't uncommon for a redlining to turn into a win at one point, now you see the battle end with one push. (Which is why I personally can't stand domination)
Give the new guys a place to fight, a place where their actions have an effect, and they'll start to push and win just like we did.
They'll want to go into the next match, because they know they can fight and win.
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Kaeru Nayiri
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
399
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Posted - 2015.01.07 22:29:00 -
[27299] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:
That's more of a mentality of the players than a problem we can fix through any feature.
[...]
Give the new guys a place to fight, a place where their actions have an effect, and they'll start to push and win just like we did.
They'll want to go into the next match, because they know they can fight and win.
Well said. |
Bayeth Mal
Opus Arcana
Covert Intervention
2135
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Posted - 2015.01.07 23:11:00 -
[27300] - Quote
FW is restricted to Skirm, have an extra pub match level of Skirm only, highest tier, with dramatically higher payouts for wins, and dramatically lower payouts for losses (like <50k for placing first on the losing team, >1.5 mil for first place winning team). So yeah you could jump in there in BPOs expecting to make a lot of ISK if your team carries you but if you lose it wont have been worth your time.
Call it "The Carnatic Wars" or whatever in lore crap you want.
Restrict general pubs to Basic Advanced (level 3 skill unlock basically, I think that's meta 5?).
Base it on suit meta level, or maybe Suit and weapon, a basic suit with complex mods isn't really that huge a problem.
FW is having some great battles because payouts for wins are so high and losses are so low. In pub-matches it's not a massive difference, so people play for kills. Or AFK or just derp around.
We'll bang, OK?
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