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Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote:

Vitantur Nothus wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

Just noticed this.

I think it is relevant to our discussion.

CCP Rattati wrote:

After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking. I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that instead of a HP nerf of plates or a smaller HP nerf. I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched.

I took this to mean that he has found Armor v Shield interplay to be closer to balanced than expected. I hadn't believed this to be the case, but PC data must be suggesting otherwise. As far as PC Heavies go, it wouldn't surprise me to see half a team running GA/AM Sentinel, and I can't recall the last time I saw an MN or CA Sentinel. On the other hand, I've lately seen more MN and CA Assault in competitive play than AM or GA.

I still hope to see King HP reigned in a 'bit for the sake interplay with non-tanky builds, but perhaps now is not the time.

The reason you don't see them is HMG eats armor like a small child eats chocolate covered caramels.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2059	Posted - 2014.12.16 02:44:00 - [26581] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Just noticed this. I think it is relevant to our discussion. CCP Rattati wrote: After reading this thread, and going back and forth on the numbers, I am not so sure any more that armor is overall more viable than shield tanking. I do know that high speed high tanked roles suffer from hit detection issues/high strafe speeds. I may tackle that instead of a HP nerf of plates or a smaller HP nerf. I want players to use reactives and ferros so they will not be touched. I took this to mean that he has found Armor v Shield interplay to be closer to balanced than expected. I hadn't believed this to be the case, but PC data must be suggesting otherwise. As far as PC Heavies go, it wouldn't surprise me to see half a team running GA/AM Sentinel, and I can't recall the last time I saw an MN or CA Sentinel. On the other hand, I've lately seen more MN and CA Assault in competitive play than AM or GA. I still hope to see King HP reigned in a 'bit for the sake interplay with non-tanky builds, but perhaps now is not the time. The reason you don't see them is HMG eats armor like a small child eats chocolate covered caramels. Also with Gallente and Amarr Sentinels having resistances to both of the anti armour rifles (CR and RR) it kinda gives them the best of both worlds. We'll bang, OK?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1202	Posted - 2014.12.16 02:53:00 - [26582] - Quote TritusX wrote: Any good, cheap Minja fits out there for your lowly minja scrub with no passives o/ Tritus If I were shooting for cheap, I'd start matches running ... Scout M-1 (21k) PW: Combat Rifle SW: ZN-28s HS: Enh Shields (x2) LS: Cmp Damp, Cmp KinCat EQ: Std Cloak, [Empty] GR: [Empty] ... but the second I got the "you've been scanned" message, I'd drop the Cmp KinCat for an Enh Damp. Cmp Damp + Enh Damp puts you at 20 dB, which is just below GA Logi Non-Focused Scans.
Bayeth Mal Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 2059	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:06:00 - [26583] - Quote Well I showed up somewhere in the 500's so it'll be a while before I get the bot likes. We'll bang, OK?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1202	Posted - 2014.12.16 03:08:00 - [26584] - Quote While poking around at protofits.com ... * Miasma Grenade * Short Description: NOTE: THIS IS A CRYSTAL BALL ITEM, DETAILS, STATS AND FUNCTIONALITY IN SITE ARE NOT FINAL. USE AT OWN RISK. Description: The Miasma grenade creates an impenetrable shroud that distorts suit optics and obscures sight. NOTE: This is a test grenade.
IAmDuncanIdaho II R 0 N 1 N 1068	Posted - 2014.12.16 07:16:00 - [26585] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: TritusX wrote: Any good, cheap Minja fits out there for your lowly minja scrub with no passives o/ Tritus If I were shooting for cheap, I'd start matches running ... Scout M-1 (21k) PW: Combat Rifle SW: ZN-28s HS: Enh Shields (x2) LS: Cmp Damp, Cmp KinCat EQ: Std Cloak, [Empty] GR: [Empty] ... but the second I got the "you've been scanned" message, I'd drop the Cmp KinCat for an Enh Damp. Cmp Damp + Enh Damp puts you at 20 dB, which is just below GA Logi Non-Focused Scans. If you can't fit cloak yet but are in the mood for low-cost shanking, I'd recommend something like: Scout M-1 (25k) PW: ZN-28s SW: Breach SMG HS: Enh Shields, Cmp Sidearm Dmg LS: Cmp KinCat, Bsc PG Upgrade EQ: A-19 Active Scanner, Compact Hive GR: Flux @TritusX I like running around in this for ~21K: M-I scout - Ishukone Nova Knives - 2x complex kinetic catalyzers - T-12 Ion Pistol It's about as paper as it gets, but I sometimes break that out when team is getting rolled to conserve ISK and perhaps get one or two NK kills...or get us out of the redline with a quick hack across the field. Die a lot though. [edit] What's also nice is if you manage to kill a proto suit - pity the risk / reward ISK-wise isn't better in the game, but it is what it is :) You must learn honor, or you deserve to learn nothing at all. ~ Rivvy Dinari - Swordmaster of Ginaz
J0LLY R0G3R And the ButtPirates 1381	Posted - 2014.12.16 15:16:00 - [26586] - Quote Bayeth Mal wrote: Well I showed up somewhere in the 500's so it'll be a while before I get the bot likes. Tossed u a like while u wait. XD TLDR : Last Dust Montage
dzizur 6 dayz 136	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:15:00 - [26587] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: dzizur wrote: no chevron blahblahblah How so? I've seen few players who didn't have chevrons even if I had my sights directly at them. At first there were minmatar and caldari scouts, so I though "wow, I bet they filled all their lows with complex damps". This got me thinking that maybe when I'm running in 3 complex damps it looks the same to a very high precision (high meaning worse) dropsuit. After all, how could I check it? almost noone runs 3 damps in pubs and I rarely use medium or heavy frames. But yesterday I got killed by a proto amar assault while shooting from a distance of about 20-30 meters.Again, no chevron.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1210	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:43:00 - [26588] - Quote Are you aiming down sights or hipfirig at the target? If the latter, does ADSing correct the lack of chevron?
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5823	Posted - 2014.12.16 18:51:00 - [26589] - Quote TritusX wrote: Hi. Any good, cheap Minja fits out there for your lowly minja scrub with no passives I won't pretend that this is a good fit but it works for me Basic/Quafe suit Enhanced Dmg mod Basic Damage mod Enhanced Kin Enhanced Codebreaker ZN Knives (this may only work because I have maxed NK Damage through Suit and Prof.) Specialist Flaylock Basic Flux Basic Cloak Basic RE Never stop moving stay on the fringe, or run through the blobs but stay mobile. MOAR Ladders
Ares 514 D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 1017	Posted - 2014.12.16 19:14:00 - [26590] - Quote dzizur wrote: One Eyed King wrote: dzizur wrote: no chevron blahblahblah How so? I've seen few players who didn't have chevrons even if I had my sights directly at them. At first there were minmatar and caldari scouts, so I though "wow, I bet they filled all their lows with complex damps". This got me thinking that maybe when I'm running in 3 complex damps it looks the same to a very high precision (high meaning worse) dropsuit. After all, how could I check it? almost noone runs 3 damps in pubs and I rarely use medium or heavy frames. But yesterday I got killed by a proto amar assault while shooting from a distance of about 20-30 meters.Again, no chevron. I have seen this as well once. Made me wonder the same thing, I even tried a few fits but I think it's a bug that happens sometimes. Overlord of Broman

dzizur 6 dayz 136	Posted - 2014.12.16 19:40:00 - [26591] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Are you aiming down sights or hipfirig at the target? If the latter, does ADSing correct the lack of chevron? Can't say about amar assault case, as I was jumping around so ADS was not an option. But I'm fairly sure I did ADS while shooting those scouts.
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5824	Posted - 2014.12.16 19:41:00 - [26592] - Quote dzizur wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Are you aiming down sights or hipfirig at the target? If the latter, does ADSing correct the lack of chevron? Can't say about amar assault case, as I was jumping around so ADS was not an option. But I'm fairly sure I did ADS while shooting those scouts. I'm going to see if I can replicate some of this. You have me intrigued MOAR Ladders
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1210	Posted - 2014.12.16 19:52:00 - [26593] - Quote I'n with you, Llast. Interesting indeed... * time on screen * proximity to center screen * shooter precision * equipped weapon range * distance to target * target profile What else might qualify as a line-of-sight input parameter?
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6645	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:16:00 - [26594] - Quote Question, do they even show up on tacnet? Maybe I am getting myself confused and they are only supposed to show on tacnet in LoS but not have a chevron. And with Medium Frames having near scout EWAR it is going to be harder to tell if you don't have an Amarr scout, because they can get pretty low. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 323	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:22:00 - [26595] - Quote Line of sight will always put a chevron over their head and display them on the tacnet for you... IF It's within a certain part of your weapons effective range. Grab a sniper rifle and pan it across the screen without looking through the scope, red chevrons will appear if you have line of sight. Do the same with a flaylock pistol... and nada.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1211	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:24:00 - [26596] - Quote There's an old Moody video where he shares TacNet tips and tricks. In one example he pops into a hallway and immediately retreats, explaining that he's letting LoS determine whether or not anyone's in the hall. Easier than using your eyes, or some such. To answer your question, King, target positions in Moody's example appeared as chevrons on screen.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6647	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:27:00 - [26597] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: There's an old Moody video where he shares TacNet tips and tricks. In one example he pops into a hallway and immediately retreats, explaining that he's letting LoS determine whether or not anyone's in the hall. Easier than using your eyes, or some such. To answer your question, King, target positions in Moody's example appeared as chevrons on screen. I remember that video, but we know sometimes things change whether it be intentional or no, and that is an old video if I remember correctly. Kaeru may have nailed it though, that makes the most sense to me. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1211	Posted - 2014.12.16 20:37:00 - [26598] - Quote Absolutely. It's also rumored that piloting with a long range weapon equipped affects rendering distance.
TritusX PH4NT0M5 60	Posted - 2014.12.16 23:59:00 - [26599] - Quote What would you guys say about this ADV min scout fit? Enh Shield Ext x3 Enh Damp x1 STD Ass CR Ish NK STD Cloak If only you could attach RE to yourself and kamikaze a tank
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5084	Posted - 2014.12.17 00:02:00 - [26600] - Quote TritusX wrote: What would you guys say about this ADV min scout fit? Enh Shield Ext x3 Enh Damp x1 STD Ass CR Ish NK STD Cloak I'd say drop the cloak if it's preventing you from using 2 low slots. Actual minjas might think otherwise though. I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1211	Posted - 2014.12.17 00:37:00 - [26601] - Quote TritusX wrote: What would you guys say about this ADV min scout fit? Enh Shield Ext x3 Enh Damp x1 STD Ass CR Ish NK STD Cloak Comparing Damps on MinScout ... 24 dB - One Complex 25 dB - One Enhanced 27 dB - One Basic Active Scan thresholds are 21dB and 28dB. Outcomes do not differ, whether running a single Basic or single Complex. MidRange (15m - 22m) AM Scout base passives will pick you at 27 dB, but I'm not seeing many AM Scouts out-and-about, and those you do see are more likely than not running a precision enhancer or two. All that to say, if you're going to run one damp, a Basic one will suffice to get you under 28dB Active Scans and there aren't many common hunter/hunted scenarios to consider between 25 dB and 27 dB.
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 6653	Posted - 2014.12.17 00:43:00 - [26602] - Quote Spademan wrote: TritusX wrote: What would you guys say about this ADV min scout fit? Enh Shield Ext x3 Enh Damp x1 STD Ass CR Ish NK STD Cloak I'd say drop the cloak if it's preventing you from using 2 low slots. Actual minjas might think otherwise though. If all he is using it for is crossing open terrain, then it actually is useful. If you use it anywhere near opposing players, it is mostly a detriment. At the same time, it felt like running cloakless in 1.10 was much harder because of Scout Lites anways. I would suggest alternating that fit with a suit with at least 1 complex damp, if not a second, instead of the cloak and see what works best for you. Thunderbolt. verb and noun. "James thunderbolted in his pants." "I lit a bag of thunderbolt on fire on CCP's doorway"
Kayla Michael Tactical Logistics and Cargo 58	Posted - 2014.12.17 01:38:00 - [26603] - Quote Omg, burn this monstrosity. Now scouts are formulating a Hub? What have you monsters do to DUST? I eat drahp uplink, me thinks this isn't a cookie. `~`
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14515	Posted - 2014.12.17 01:41:00 - [26604] - Quote Kayla Michael wrote: Omg, burn this monstrosity. Now scouts are formulating a Hub? What have you monsters do to DUST? You're about 1.5 years, 1,329 pages, and 26,566 posts late. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Spademan Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 5084	Posted - 2014.12.17 02:04:00 - [26605] - Quote So about those keys. I had 5 on offer from daily missions, didn't have time to get any I am part shovel, part man, full scout, and a little bit special. Official Time Lord of the Scout Community
sir RAVEN WING Kaalmayoti Warzone Control 1957	Posted - 2014.12.17 02:10:00 - [26606] - Quote Spademan wrote: So about those keys. I had 5 on offer from daily missions, didn't have time to get any Just passed 400 boxes and I have 2 keys. Really we need to lower the amount of boxes or raise the aount of keys, I mean who is going to buy 406 keys? n+ÅS¦¦Gùò V GùòS¦¦n++killer of Cat Merc/Feathered overlord of all. 15 Quafe Ck.0s! 357 boxes...0 keys
Llast 326 An Arkhos 5827	Posted - 2014.12.17 02:11:00 - [26607] - Quote Kayla Michael wrote: Omg, burn this monstrosity. Now scouts are formulating a Hub? What have you monsters do to DUST? T+í s+¬ r+¦-dh+¬anach. MOAR Ladders
TritusX PH4NT0M5 62	Posted - 2014.12.17 02:45:00 - [26608] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Spademan wrote: TritusX wrote: What would you guys say about this ADV min scout fit? Enh Shield Ext x3 Enh Damp x1 STD Ass CR Ish NK STD Cloak I'd say drop the cloak if it's preventing you from using 2 low slots. Actual minjas might think otherwise though. If all he is using it for is crossing open terrain, then it actually is useful. If you use it anywhere near opposing players, it is mostly a detriment. At the same time, it felt like running cloakless in 1.10 was much harder because of Scout Lites anways. I would suggest alternating that fit with a suit with at least 1 complex damp, if not a second, instead of the cloak and see what works best for you. I like the one damp. I'm not being noticed around corners so far or being picked up by active scanners so far (hopefully for awhile), so now I can focus more on just overall aim and stuff, and not worrying about being detected :P Would you guys say that the BK-42 is more worth it than the STD Assault CR for the money? I have 6m ISK, and that runs out fast. I don't know what CR to use. The normal CR's I use sometimes, but I'm not that precise with aim, so I spray and pray with the Ass CR. What should I get?? If only you could attach RE to yourself and kamikaze a tank
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1212	Posted - 2014.12.17 02:51:00 - [26609] - Quote Typically not worth it. As far as most weapons go, the benefit is slight and the cost-difference steep. The NK is the only exception that comes to mind. Practice makes perfect with the CR. Once you get the cadence down, you'll find it superior to the ACR (I do at least). Unless there's lag or chance of lag; then you want the high RoF of the ACR.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1224	Posted - 2014.12.17 03:28:00 - [26610] - Quote One of our own is going to be a dad! Swing by the bunker and share some :: high fives ::



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