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One Eyed King wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

One Eyed King wrote:

In some ways, wouldn't this be an indirect nerf to Amarr scanning?

As it stands, if I have 2 Damps and a proto cloak, I have to have my cloak active for an Amarr not to pick me up.

If we made this change, I would simply just beat the Amarr. There would be no penalty for deactivating cloak or running out of juice.

Am I reading that wrong?

Good question ... let's work it out:

With 2 cPEs, the AM Scout scans at 18 dB.
CA/GA Scouts currently need 2 damps to dodge.
MN/AM Scouts currently need 2 damps and an adv cloak to dodge.

Proposed system:
All Scouts need 2 damps to dodge (as cloak bonus is removed).

MN/AM Scouts retain the ability to beat his scans using two slots. If we required them to use three, that'd be a serious nerf to MN/AM Scouts.

I agree it would be an issue if we had to have 3.

But that is the current metric if solely relying on damps.

If changes went through we could use two damps and beat them without the use of a cloak.

I don't know what that would do to be honest. In some ways that is a buff to us. Particularly those that don't use cloaks.

At the same time, it does mean the Amarr are getting less for the same sacrifice that they make now. I hate the Amarr, so I don't know how much if any that effect would have on them, but AM scouts might not like it.

I see walls of text from them in your future Pirate

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 178 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5868	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:22:00 - [23521] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: Gal needs to be 4% Actually, you're right. I doublechecked the numbers and a 4% Gallente bonus yields results even closer to the status quo than 3%. Thank :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Appia Nappia 1341	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:22:00 - [23522] - Quote [redacted] So very tired
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5868	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:23:00 - [23523] - Quote Appia Nappia wrote: [redacted] Give me a second ... I'm tweaking the numbers. :: grumbles under breath :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4784	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:24:00 - [23524] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: In some ways, wouldn't this be an indirect nerf to Amarr scanning? As it stands, if I have 2 Damps and a proto cloak, I have to have my cloak active for an Amarr not to pick me up. If we made this change, I would simply just beat the Amarr. There would be no penalty for deactivating cloak or running out of juice. Am I reading that wrong? Good question ... let's work it out: With 2 cPEs, the AM Scout scans at 18 dB. CA/GA Scouts currently need 2 damps to dodge. MN/AM Scouts currently need 2 damps and an adv cloak to dodge. Proposed system: All Scouts need 2 damps to dodge (as cloak bonus is removed). MN/AM Scouts retain the ability to beat his scans using two slots. If we required them to use three, that'd be a serious nerf to MN/AM Scouts. I agree it would be an issue if we had to have 3. But that is the current metric if solely relying on damps. If changes went through we could use two damps and beat them without the use of a cloak. I don't know what that would do to be honest. In some ways that is a buff to us. Particularly those that don't use cloaks. At the same time, it does mean the Amarr are getting less for the same sacrifice that they make now. I hate the Amarr, so I don't know how much if any that effect would have on them, but AM scouts might not like it. I see walls of text from them in your future You can always tell a Millford Minja
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4836	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:26:00 - [23525] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: In some ways, wouldn't this be an indirect nerf to Amarr scanning? As it stands, if I have 2 Damps and a proto cloak, I have to have my cloak active for an Amarr not to pick me up. If we made this change, I would simply just beat the Amarr. There would be no penalty for deactivating cloak or running out of juice. Am I reading that wrong? Good question ... let's work it out: With 2 cPEs, the AM Scout scans at 18 dB. CA/GA Scouts currently need 2 damps to dodge. MN/AM Scouts currently need 2 damps and an adv cloak to dodge. Proposed system: All Scouts need 2 damps to dodge (as cloak bonus is removed). MN/AM Scouts retain the ability to beat his scans using two slots. If we required them to use three, that'd be a serious nerf to MN/AM Scouts. I agree it would be an issue if we had to have 3. But that is the current metric if solely relying on damps. If changes went through we could use two damps and beat them without the use of a cloak. I don't know what that would do to be honest. In some ways that is a buff to us. Particularly those that don't use cloaks. At the same time, it does mean the Amarr are getting less for the same sacrifice that they make now. I hate the Amarr, so I don't know how much if any that effect would have on them, but AM scouts might not like it. I see walls of text from them in your future Adi been building a tolerance to walls of text KRRROOOOOOM
Varoth Drac Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 286	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:36:00 - [23526] - Quote It's a nice idea with clever implementation. I'm just not sure about nerfing cloaks. They aren't really all that amazing and they do encourage more interesting "scouty" fits. Feels a bit like this would encourage more of a "slayer-logi" style scout fit. I think I prefer some of the other suggested changes if things need to be done. Such as medium suit profile reduction or scout armour plate penalties and shield regen reduction. Very clever idea though. Might be fun dropping cloak to activate scans, then re-cloaking. I'm also a bit worried certain people would go for the cloak nerf but not agree to all the necessary profile and damp buffs that go with it. It's all very well giving Rattati a well thought out idea but what if he's under pressure to screw it up?
Llast 326 An Arkhos 4837	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:43:00 - [23527] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: It's a nice idea with clever implementation. I'm just not sure about nerfing cloaks. They aren't really all that amazing and they do encourage more interesting "scouty" fits. Feels a bit like this would encourage more of a "slayer-logi" style scout fit. I think I prefer some of the other suggested changes if things need to be done. Such as medium suit profile reduction or scout armour plate penalties and shield regen reduction. Very clever idea though. Might be fun dropping cloak to activate scans, then re-cloaking. I'm also a bit worried certain people would go for the cloak nerf but not agree to all the necessary profile and damp buffs that go with it. It's all very well giving Rattati a well thought out idea but what if he's under pressure to screw it up? Rattati holds his own when it comes to looking at ideas, at least from what I have seen. KRRROOOOOOM
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5868	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:44:00 - [23528] - Quote Proposal updated. Good catch, Appia. GA Bonus 3% --> 4% Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Appia Nappia 1341	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:50:00 - [23529] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: Varoth Drac wrote: It's a nice idea with clever implementation. I'm just not sure about nerfing cloaks. They aren't really all that amazing and they do encourage more interesting "scouty" fits. Feels a bit like this would encourage more of a "slayer-logi" style scout fit. I think I prefer some of the other suggested changes if things need to be done. Such as medium suit profile reduction or scout armour plate penalties and shield regen reduction. Very clever idea though. Might be fun dropping cloak to activate scans, then re-cloaking. I'm also a bit worried certain people would go for the cloak nerf but not agree to all the necessary profile and damp buffs that go with it. It's all very well giving Rattati a well thought out idea but what if he's under pressure to screw it up? Rattati holds his own when it comes to looking at ideas, at least from what I have seen. He does hold his own, even if they're good ideas when faced with resistance from the usual suspect of whiners, or bad ideas and faced with resistance from a collection of experts So very tired
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5868	Posted - 2014.10.13 21:52:00 - [23530] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I agree it would be an issue if we had to have 3. But that is the current metric if solely relying on damps. If changes went through we could use two damps and beat them without the use of a cloak. I don't know what that would do to be honest. In some ways that is a buff to us. Particularly those that don't use cloaks. At the same time, it does mean the Amarr are getting less for the same sacrifice that they make now. I hate the Amarr, so I don't know how much if any that effect would have on them, but AM scouts might not like it. I see walls of text from them in your future Edit: Point of Clarification. According to the CCP spreadsheet on EWAR, 2 Damps on a Minmatar take us to 18.5, which takes a Proto cloak to get under Amarr scans. Otherwise, the ADV gets you to 17.57, which would round to 18 and tie the Amarr.Just in case anyone thinks they can currently downgrade their cloak to ADV for extra fitting. Haerr's proposal is a bigass nerf, brother. Make no mistake. But its a nerf that'll make things more interesting for us and for everyone else. I like it alot. But we can't pitch it if it means Scouts all have run one more dampener in the lows. Hence these tweaks :-) The Active Scanner buffs in the proposal cure Assault Lite. If a Scout isn't damped, he'll get scanned. This takes one of the few legitimate arguments out of the enemy's arsenal. One less poster boy for them to point at and moan over. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

Appia Nappia 1343	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:02:00 - [23531] - Quote Only real issue I see with the changes, is the lack of need for the cloak. Honestly, I don't use the Cloak on my Gallente Scout. Or Caldari Scout. I only use it on the Minmatar Scout because I need it for the dampening effects. Amarr is like 50/50 depending on squad-mates. With a good squad I don't bother with stealth and use plates and a range amp, Solo or with a bad squad I'll dampen and use the cloak for the same reason as the Minmatar Scout. Without the Dampening effect the cloak is just terrible. It's easily spotted at long range. The duration does not make use for traveling long distances. The recharge rate makes it bad to completely deplete it. The whole thing is designed to be used in CQC. It's the Predator's cloak. It's not a tool for discreet movement. The good players have trained their eyes, you're not going to surprise. It's abusable in pubs because of how incompetent the majority of players are, but it just doesn't hold up in PC. If I could dampen without the need for the cloak I would never use it on Minmatar or Amarr Scouts. Which brings us back to the psuedo-Logi issue. A scout with Ewar is better support unit than a Logistics suit because Logistics don't have any advantage at using Equipement over Scouts or other roles. They get a bonus to 1 EQ type and nothing more. It's not enough for them. So very tired
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:07:00 - [23532] - Quote I'll bet that purple shimmer is able to be adjusted server-side. If cloak render were to render us blind, we may be able leverage that new handicap toward upgrading cloak. Maybe we can get one that works in the dark :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4785	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:13:00 - [23533] - Quote More thinking out loud: If the totality of suggestions were present, i.e. EWAR changes + Haerr's cloak changes. Two things would happen: 1) Cloaked Minjas would be BLINDER than a heavy. 2) In order to have any efficacy outside of hunting for EQ, we would need to be cloakless. We would be squishy, visible, cloakless knifers. This puts us back to pre 1.8 effectiveness. 2a) It is entirely possible that Minja survivability would be better suited by become, gasp, HP tankers... If just the EWAR changes were present. 1) Minjas could fit whatever cloak they would like with their 2 Damps and beat Amarr scans. Plus, they would have extra fitting capacity. 2) Minjas who already go without a cloak will now be able to beat Amarr without that 3rd Damp, making a lesser of a sacrifice to Amarr's reduced efficacy for the same sacrifice they made previously. The first hypothetical would be too big a nerf, the second too big a buff. I feel like we are bowing to the pressure of mercs who don't know squat. Time and time again we have seen balance improve, and we are bending to the will of idiots with blinders. We have previously come up with reasonable proposals. If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Appia Nappia 1344	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:14:00 - [23534] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'll bet that purple shimmer is able to be adjusted server-side. If cloak render were to render us blind, we may be able leverage that new handicap toward upgrading cloak. Maybe we can get one that works in the dark :-) My biggest pet peeve in a video game is the ***** thing being too dark to see. This is why Nintendo makes the best games ever. You never see a level in Mario where you don't know what the is going on, unless the level was specifically designed to do that. There are too many corners and halways where there isn't enough lighting effects. And it's the lighting effects that make it dark. I really like the cloak in Destiny and use it all the time for the purpose of circumventing those *** terribly designed areas that are too dark to see. I wish DUST's cloak would let me do the same. Or just a ***** flashlight would be nice too. So very tired
PARKOUR PRACTIONER Pure Evil. Capital Punishment. 2055	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:14:00 - [23535] - Quote Llast 326 wrote: PARKOUR PRACTIONER wrote: Hey guys. I got hacking to three! I put two ADV hacking mods on a basic m-1, two SMGs, one breach one regular, R-9 and stable links. I used it in a Dom, got seventeen hundred WPs, got to the end of the match, got fatal error. -_- Just wait Have Minja 5 Hacking 5GÇª complex CodebreakersGÇª blip done What had happen was, i had 230k SP and i was like what to spend it what to spend it. So did a few matches with Kira, a Dom, so i had on my 'Sever' BPO scout ZNs, cloak, 2com xamp, 1ADV range, 1ADV precision. And had decent enemy team the kept hacking the CRUs, the objective flipped back and forth whole game. So i spend the entire match hacking the CRUs while Kira defended the letter. We won, the second i got back to MQ i put hacking to three lol. Most of my deaths were from hacking to slow. Went 18/6 Kira 35/5 i think. PSN Sil4ntChaozz Hi guys several charge swipes later bye guys Wannabe LeafinDaWind/Ghost
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:41:00 - [23536] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. It'll be fun! It's like submarine warfare :-) Like Iggy was saying though, we'll be able to actively manage the blindness by flipping cloak off and on. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4791	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:52:00 - [23537] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. It'll be fun! It's like submarine warfare :-) Like Iggy was saying though, we'll be able to actively manage the blindness by flipping cloak off and on. I suppose. If I am hunting a submarine that has many more times the killing capacity of myself. And can suddenly disappear off my tacnet without actually making any sacrifices themselves. And doesn't actually need any skill to kill me should they just see a blur going by and swing their HMG wildly in that general direction. Yeah, that sounds fair and balanced. Heavies have had it too hard for too long... You can always tell a Millford Minja
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5869	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:37:00 - [23538] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. It'll be fun! It's like submarine warfare :-) Like Iggy was saying though, we'll be able to actively manage the blindness by flipping cloak off and on. I suppose. If I am hunting a submarine that has many more times the killing capacity of myself. And can suddenly disappear off my tacnet without actually making any sacrifices themselves. And doesn't actually need any skill to kill me should they just see a blur going by and swing their HMG wildly in that general direction. Yeah, that sounds fair and balanced. Heavies have had it too hard for too long... If cloak were less shimmer...y would you be more willing to buy in? OOoooo! Or if backpedal speed were reduced, would you be willing to buy in? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4793	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:06:00 - [23539] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. It'll be fun! It's like submarine warfare :-) Like Iggy was saying though, we'll be able to actively manage the blindness by flipping cloak off and on. I suppose. If I am hunting a submarine that has many more times the killing capacity of myself. And can suddenly disappear off my tacnet without actually making any sacrifices themselves. And doesn't actually need any skill to kill me should they just see a blur going by and swing their HMG wildly in that general direction. Yeah, that sounds fair and balanced. Heavies have had it too hard for too long... If cloak were less shimmer...y would you be more willing to buy in? OOoooo! Or if backpedal speed were reduced, would you be willing to buy in? At this point, I would have to see it, and see it work before I would buy in. Right now, it looks like it might be OK for ambush, but I can't imagine surviving Skirmish. Awhile ago, Goose and I were in a Skirm, where basically we were the only ones hacking. I went 5/12. My survivability was next to nothing, and that was with the current mechanics. Under new EWAR, I can see myself just being a small blind punching bag. Hacking an objective tells an enemy exactly where you are, regardless of tacnet. With the changes, they will have the advantage of knowing exact location, no matter what type of suit, and I will not see them coming. I can't plan an escape route, I will as often run right into them as I will away. Skirmish will just become a matter of who can slay the best, and it won't be me. Those are my fears. Its too many changes, all at the same time, with no degree of certainty how it will play. It fixes problems that don't really exist, and opens the door for many more problems we can't foresee In my eye, it provides marginal benefits for all that risk. Remind me again, what is the major problem that we are trying to fix? You can always tell a Millford Minja
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5873	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:08:00 - [23540] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Remind me again, what is the major problem that we are trying to fix? Shotgun Scout. Lol ... kinda got carried away, eh? Wish there was something we could do about the hacking drawback ... :: thinking cap :: Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

One Eyed King Land of the BIind 4793	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:25:00 - [23541] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Remind me again, what is the major problem that we are trying to fix? Shotgun Scout. Lol ... kinda got carried away, eh? Wish there was something we could do about the hacking drawback ... :: thinking cap :: Possibly removal of all hacking prompts, but the more changes you make, the more unintended consequences there are. Because at that point, Minmatar hacking bonuses are moot unless someone is actually watching you hack. You can always tell a Millford Minja
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:40:00 - [23542] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: If Haerr's cloak fixes went through, you can bet your patootie Minjas will go back to irrelevance. I cannot fathom that cloaks are so OP that we should be forced to be BLINDER THAN A HEAVY with as low as a tenth of their HP. It is just inconceivable to me, especially the more I think about the implications. It'll be fun! It's like submarine warfare :-) Like Iggy was saying though, we'll be able to actively manage the blindness by flipping cloak off and on. Frankly, I see my MinScout benefiting from the proposal. Fitting a proto cloak is tough. It'd no longer be a requirement. Th sonly problem is one dampener min scouts, which I run a lot with 2 kin cats, or a kincat+codebreaker...Something tells me that this will make them worse than with the ADV cloak.... If my min scout gets any more scannable, Im just going to go assault. Its becoming nicer and nicer of an option every day. Why can't we just standardize the cloak at 10% dampening at all tiers, and be done with it? If it works, don't fix it. Thats the system we are currently in. The 10% dampening just allows more scouts to get in on what we proposed were the balancing mechanics, which seem to work quite nicely. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
mollerz 5551	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:43:00 - [23543] - Quote Backpedal should get adjusted anyways.. not held hostage to a clak change! What if hacking level 5 negated any indication something was being hacked? Adv skill halfway into the hack it begins flashing. Level 1 is at 10 or 20% hacked it begins flashing. And then the codebreakers would remain the way to shorten the time. This way it helps the minja but also everyone else. It would drastically change the way skirmish is played. I'm seriously fukn serious
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:43:00 - [23544] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Remind me again, what is the major problem that we are trying to fix? Shotgun Scout. Lol ... kinda got carried away, eh? Wish there was something we could do about the hacking drawback ... :: thinking cap :: Why is the shotgun scout so bad, exactly? It has nearly 0 range, and is easily counter able by strafing (single fire, slow RoF makes it much harder to hit with than a full auto weapon in CQC) in addition to simply jumping backwards. Why are we bending over for people who are still living in slayer logi lala land? Why are we focusing on nerfing the scout when the best slayers in this game right now are HMG heavies and Assaults? Its beyond my comprehension. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
mollerz 5551	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:46:00 - [23545] - Quote It's true. Outside of a select few elite shotgunners is it really a problem? I'm seriously fukn serious
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.10.14 00:52:00 - [23546] - Quote mollerz wrote: It's true. Outside of a select few elite shotgunners is it really a problem? I say we just nerf TTW and take away his LW slot for him and him alone Seriously though, he really is the only shotgunner in this game (beside myself of course ) thats any good "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5878	Posted - 2014.10.14 01:20:00 - [23547] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Th sonly problem is one dampener min scouts, which I run a lot with 2 kin cats, or a kincat+codebreaker...Something tells me that this will make them worse than with the ADV cloak.... Something tells you, Gav? Something tells me you are weighing in on the spreadsheet without looking at the spreadsheet. Current Numbers: 23 dB - MinScout + 1 Damp + Adv Cloak Proposed Numbers: 23 dB - MinScout + 1 Damp Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
I do SUCK 168	Posted - 2014.10.14 01:23:00 - [23548] - Quote any good min scout setups for advanced suit My name hurts my feelings
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5878	Posted - 2014.10.14 01:27:00 - [23549] - Quote I do SUCK wrote: any good min scout setups for advanced suit M/1 (41k Isk) PW: Pro NKs SW: Adv Bolt HS: Adv Shields (x2), Cmp Sidearm Dmg LS: Cmp Damps (x2) EQ: Bsc Cloak, Bsc RE GR: Empty Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 2567	Posted - 2014.10.14 01:51:00 - [23550] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Th sonly problem is one dampener min scouts, which I run a lot with 2 kin cats, or a kincat+codebreaker...Something tells me that this will make them worse than with the ADV cloak.... Something tells you, Gav? Something tells me you are weighing in on the spreadsheet without looking at the spreadsheet. Current Numbers: 23 dB - MinScout + 1 Damp + Adv Cloak Proposed Numbers: 23 dB - MinScout + 1 Damp ADv cloak should put you at 22.... 31.5.75.95=22.4, which rounds to 22. "Minmitar Scout" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ Give the Minja active dampening!--By Bor



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