Warden/Spook
I don't really like the new cal/gal changes. It will require 1+ precision enhancer to detect a dampened gal scout. A balanced solution needs to rely on cloak. So a 1:1 module fitting then a cloak to remain hidden. What is the better advantage, staying hidden or being able to see? We all agree that staying hidden is more powerful. That is the reason why the hidden should have the final sacrifice and stay hidden with cloak.

I highly disagree with this. The cloak should not be brought in when considering Passive's.
The cloak should be balanced as an active dampener against the active scanner.

Feel free to "leak" it to him if you think it'd help :-)
There's only one proposal document; all links are up-to-date.

PS: I like Pokey and Black.

Need an alternate bonus for Gal which meets the following criteria:

(1) will not be weaponry related
(2) will not be armor or armor repair related
(3) will not be cloak related
(4) will augment a low slot module
(5) will be sufficient to incentivize not running plates

Go!

Also, I think "the ability to see" is more valuable than "the ability to be unseen".
While the latter is favorable when solo, the former is often multiplied by a factor of 6.

dont leave much choice. lol

Tough one, right!?

If we went for anything armor related, the invisible, brick-tanked GalScout would become FoTM allover again. This is where a non-Scout says, "if you can't think of a sound second bonus, then you shouldn't have one." So I plan to stick to range enhancers or cloak augmentation. The former allows for greater build variety, hence I favor the former.

The reason I'm suggesting a bonus higher than 1% is to incentivize use of ewar modules over plates. The reason its lower than 5% is because someone is going to stack four of them.

Is my thinking wrong here, guys?

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An altogether different path would involve swapping the proposed Amarr Ferroscale/Reactive Bonus for a Range Extender Bonus and scrapping the Second Bonuses of Gallente and Caldari (we'd keep the First Bonus redirected from innate to module as proposed).

I don't want to break anything here, and I suspect a nerf this large just might. Do you think this would be too hard a hit to Gal and Cal to do at once? If not, would you propose the Minmatar keep the three suggested bonuses (Hacks, Knives, Biotics)? If so, how can we justify Gal / Cal having one bonus?

Reminder:
We're here so that all Scouts might find satisfaction in their respective roles. I understand that voice of the CalScout is outnumbered 3:1, and I understand that he makes your lives difficult. I don't think that gives us the right to neuter him. Smashing one Scout to benefit another gains us nothing.

Need an alternate bonus for Gal which meets the following criteria:

(1) will not be weaponry related
(2) will not be armor or armor repair related
(3) will not be cloak related
(4) will augment a low slot module
(5) will be sufficient to incentivize not running plates

Go!

Also, I think "the ability to see" is more valuable than "the ability to be unseen".
While the latter is favorable when solo, the former is often multiplied by a factor of 6.

I really like that logic

That would require client side fix.

What changed your minds? Remember when cloak provided real damp power. Thats what made the minja usable.

1. The cloak is entirely useless if fit for "visual camo" its just not very good at it.
2. The cloak is only useful at racial level 5.
3. Cloak is the least effective use of an equipment slot.

I've entirely stopped running cloak after the hotfix. Its not worth the PG/CPU.

That would require client side fix.

What changed your minds? Remember when cloak provided real damp power. Thats what made the minja usable.

1. The cloak is entirely useless if fit for "visual camo" its just not very good at it.
2. The cloak is only useful at racial level 5.
3. Cloak is the least effective use of an equipment slot.

I've entirely stopped running cloak after the hotfix. Its not worth the PG/CPU.

We all agree that staying hidden is more powerful.

Crazy idea.

What if Ewar mods had drawbacks? So if you fit damps your precision goes down, if you fit precision your profile goes up, range reduces precision? That way a cal scout would be a beacon for even heavy frames. Gal scouts wouldn't have the option of seeing huge distances and staying hidden?

What role do you play one eye? You can always see what they deem more "useful" by what role they utilize. What would you rather, able to hide from everyone or able to see everyone but those who hide?

You can't do anything if you can't stay hidden, its why people are upset about the current meta of high precision cal scouts. Thats why staying hidden its more powerful. Its the ultimate counter. Its why silencers in most FPS games are so useful, it keeps you off the radar.

I made my statement based on the consensus of "nerf cal scout precision". We ALL think that staying hidden should be the final counter (more powerful). Anyone here think otherwise?

An altogether different path would involve swapping the proposed Amarr Ferroscale/Reactive Bonus for a Range Extender Bonus and scrapping the Second Bonuses of Gallente and Caldari (we'd keep the First Bonus redirected from innate to module as proposed).

I don't want to break anything here, and I suspect a nerf this large just might. Do you think this would be too hard a hit to Gal and Cal to do at once? If not, would you propose the Minmatar keep the three suggested bonuses (Hacks, Knives, Biotics)? If so, how can we justify Gal / Cal having one bonus?

ITS A TRAP!

I will think on it. But Gal is supposed to be the sneaky one, not the scanner. I reallllly wish passive scanning could be hotfixed to not be shared. Whats so difficult about a client side fix that changes shared passive scans to "off"

I also don't think Ratati will iterate on profile/precision as he already did a pass on them. The Cal/Gal train already left the station. I think we need to focus on making minja and amarr better. But again, remaining hidden just can't happen on any other suit than a gal, otherwise it breaks the cal scout entirely.

If this plan gets passed as is, I won't be upset, I will instead start running my GAL instead of the CAL for my scanning purposes. It will provide a much better scanner. People will see Gal and will assume they don't need to run damps.

Why can't it be armor repair related? Nerf the **** out of its shield repair and give it bonus to fitting armor repair mods. That way it has to choose between armor repair, buffer or damps.

Second, why can't it be a bonus to efficiency of cloak damping/duration. It would actually correlate with its role, and make it usable. The range bonus should never have been on the GAL. Its a slayers tool, not of one who hides.

@Appia, its not restrictive because if we are changing all the bonuses to mod efficiency it forces people to use what the bonuses boost. Restricting all the scouts to fit SOMETHING to use their racial bonuses.

What role do you play one eye? You can always see what they deem more "useful" by what role they utilize. What would you rather, able to hide from everyone or able to see everyone but those who hide?

You can't do anything if you can't stay hidden, its why people are upset about the current meta of high precision cal scouts. Thats why staying hidden its more powerful. Its the ultimate counter. Its why silencers in most FPS games are so useful, it keeps you off the radar.

I made my statement based on the consensus of "nerf cal scout precision". We ALL think that staying hidden should be the final counter (more powerful). Anyone here think otherwise?

You guys seem to have forgotten something. Since 1.0 Gallente have have the Scan range bonus. Caldari has precision, Gallente has range.
I also think you're forgetting that the base range on all Scouts was once 25m. It was 10. Then 16. Now 20m. At 20m and Range Amplification V all four scouts have a static value of 30m radius.
The 1.8 5% per level only brought that up to 36.5m, Which is still below the Chromosome value of 37.5

Saying the Gallente Scout shouldn't have range is like saying Minmatar shouldn't have nova knives bonus

It's worth alot, Brother.
Our changes are getting less-and-less over reaching. This is exactly what we want.
The final proposal will be strictly polish with minimal risk of butterfly effect :-)

Effects so far ...

Minmatar - Buffed and now more ninja like
Amarr - Buffed and now have a role
Gallente - Buffed gently and encouraged to run EWAR modules
Caldari - Nerfed gently and encouraged to EWAR modules

Yea removing shared squad vision would be the best fix of all. Screw all the rest of the updates, nerf shared passive scans into the ground. Thats one hammer I would be willing to sign my name on.

Noob scout here. Nice to see a thread dedicated to the art of shaving - Sweeney Todd style that is.

Wait did they buff them last night?

I play a minja. I usually run about 200 ehp, so even if I have the drop on someone, its almost always a merc with a greater ehp advantage.

When I am unable to hide, I am unable to hack, flank, or anything else that might prove helpful, and all of it showing up on the tacnet of mercs with bigger guns, and more ehp.

If shared scanning weren't a thing, I would be apt to think the mechanics near equal, so long as the person scanning were making a significant enough sacrifice to be able to do so.

What changed your minds? Remember when cloak provided real damp power. Thats what made the minja usable.

1. The cloak is entirely useless if fit for "visual camo" its just not very good at it.
2. The cloak is only useful at racial level 5.
3. Cloak is the least effective use of an equipment slot.

I've entirely stopped running cloak after the hotfix. Its not worth the PG/CPU.