No discussions atm for cloak swap changes. Probably won't be unless there's a really good argument as to why it needs to be changed, with current design intentions considered. That being that the cloak is a navigational tool and not a murder tool.

The two most discussed options to increase Scout viability are 1) No chevrons when cloaked 2) Dynamic profile (less when crouching, more when sprinting, etc). Removing chevrons doesn't offer much in itself because of the cloak mechanic working better when holding still, which sort of defeats the purpose.

That being said, it hasn't been discussed yet, but one of the proposals I have as an addendum is to reverse the cloak transparency effects to offer greater transparency when moving as opposed to holding still. This would increase the value of the 'no cloaked chevrons' feature substantially as you wouldn't be a sitting duck hoping the enemy doesn't know how to find the red dot on the minimap (pro-tip: he will).

Opens up a lot more opportunities for Scouts to do what they need to do. Setting up assassinations, stealth hacks, escape plans, etc. Just thought at the moment though, nothing set in stone. Recent changes with FoxFour unleashed a lot of new fitting options with Assaults, Logistics, and in some cases, Commandos. Scouts can be brought up in non-combat ways like these.

Obviously you should not think that these changes are by any means happening - just idle discussion right now.

Yeah, but did they think that he was just dome random guy with katanas?

Everyone in that team was someone, except that random agent guy, no idea who he is.

but still....

The design was to lengthen decloak delay. Not to lengthen everything delay.

This is a strange argument. It's a bit like saying the ion pistol's damage isn't bad because you run 4x complex sidearm damage modifiers on every fit.

It's a big problem for cloaks because their entire purpose is invalidated if you haven't ticked some arbitrary fitting checkbox. An equipment whose sole function is stealth shouldn't require 2-3 fitting slots to actually make you stealthy.

You can claim whatever else is the biggest problem, be it the swap time or whatever, but swapping isn't the reason you fit the cloak. If it can't make you invisible then it could have an instant swap time for all the difference it makes.

Designs change.

Designs change.

Above post appended. We'll put together some better ideas for you on how to bring Scouts up-to-par. Just in case designs change again and/or balanced class interplay becomes a priority. Can't hurt, right?

No discussions atm for cloak swap changes. Probably won't be unless there's a really good argument as to why it needs to be changed, with current design intentions considered. That being that the cloak is a navigational tool and not a murder tool.

The two most discussed options to increase Scout viability are 1) No chevrons when cloaked 2) Dynamic profile (less when crouching, more when sprinting, etc). Removing chevrons doesn't offer much in itself because of the cloak mechanic working better when holding still, which sort of defeats the purpose.

That being said, it hasn't been discussed yet, but one of the proposals I have as an addendum is to reverse the cloak transparency effects to offer greater transparency when moving as opposed to holding still. This would increase the value of the 'no cloaked chevrons' feature substantially as you wouldn't be a sitting duck hoping the enemy doesn't know how to find the red dot on the minimap (pro-tip: he will).

Opens up a lot more opportunities for Scouts to do what they need to do. Setting up assassinations, stealth hacks, escape plans, etc. Just thought at the moment though, nothing set in stone. Recent changes with FoxFour unleashed a lot of new fitting options with Assaults, Logistics, and in some cases, Commandos. Scouts can be brought up in non-combat ways like these.

Obviously you should not think that these changes are by any means happening - just idle discussion right now.

No discussions atm for cloak swap changes. Probably won't be unless there's a really good argument as to why it needs to be changed, with current design intentions considered. That being that the cloak is a navigational tool and not a murder tool.

The two most discussed options to increase Scout viability are 1) No chevrons when cloaked 2) Dynamic profile (less when crouching, more when sprinting, etc). Removing chevrons doesn't offer much in itself because of the cloak mechanic working better when holding still, which sort of defeats the purpose.

That being said, it hasn't been discussed yet, but one of the proposals I have as an addendum is to reverse the cloak transparency effects to offer greater transparency when moving as opposed to holding still. This would increase the value of the 'no cloaked chevrons' feature substantially as you wouldn't be a sitting duck hoping the enemy doesn't know how to find the red dot on the minimap (pro-tip: he will).

Opens up a lot more opportunities for Scouts to do what they need to do. Setting up assassinations, stealth hacks, escape plans, etc. Just thought at the moment though, nothing set in stone. Recent changes with FoxFour unleashed a lot of new fitting options with Assaults, Logistics, and in some cases, Commandos. Scouts can be brought up in non-combat ways like these.

Obviously you should not think that these changes are by any means happening - just idle discussion right now.

Anime wise seijuro shin is the character i like the most, i can relate in some ways. Like the stereotype autistic guy that likes anime & videogames, i try to apply the reasonable things i learn IRL.

There was a great story once on NPR about a family who had an autistic child, and watched Disney movies with him.

It turns out that they make Disney moves to have exaggerated expressions and body language on purpose, because Walt or someone else up high wanted all the movies to be able to follow even if you couldn't hear the dialog.

As a result, this autistic child learned about expressing and understanding emotions. It developed into a weekly event where they not only watched the movies, but acted them out. It was so helpful to the child, that when he eventually grew up and went to college, he started a group with his autistic friends to watch and act out Disney movies.

I can see how anime might have some similar properties, and it always fascinates me the varying ways minds work under different circumstances.

I agree with making the cloak less visible while moving. We've had this discussion awhile ago. I think it will do a lot to make the cloak more viable as a tool, not an attack weapon. Right now it does not really perform a solid function, and for that reason there is little incentive to fit it on a scout.
Part of the problem is also the delay. It is very clunky and not smooth in animation or function. Inverting the invisibility may make this less of an issue as you are less likely to be spotted and forced into a switch at an inopportune time. So perhaps it it may not need to change, though it is an extremely long delay. Something closer to the transition time between of the HMG or slightly longer than the Breach Flaylock would still be effective at countering the Attack Cloak problem as you would still not be able to fire from the cloak, or initiate the engagement from a cloaked state.
I would also note that the cloak delay would be a viable way to balance out scanner usage.

Edit: I (And many others) would like Cloak delay to be looked at. If you could drop that info into a discussion with the CPM and Devs it would be great.

No discussions atm for cloak swap changes. Probably won't be unless there's a really good argument as to why it needs to be changed, with current design intentions considered. That being that the cloak is a navigational tool and not a murder tool.

The two most discussed options to increase Scout viability are 1) No chevrons when cloaked 2) Dynamic profile (less when crouching, more when sprinting, etc). Removing chevrons doesn't offer much in itself because of the cloak mechanic working better when holding still, which sort of defeats the purpose.

That being said, it hasn't been discussed yet, but one of the proposals I have as an addendum is to reverse the cloak transparency effects to offer greater transparency when moving as opposed to holding still. This would increase the value of the 'no cloaked chevrons' feature substantially as you wouldn't be a sitting duck hoping the enemy doesn't know how to find the red dot on the minimap (pro-tip: he will).

Opens up a lot more opportunities for Scouts to do what they need to do. Setting up assassinations, stealth hacks, escape plans, etc. Just thought at the moment though, nothing set in stone. Recent changes with FoxFour unleashed a lot of new fitting options with Assaults, Logistics, and in some cases, Commandos. Scouts can be brought up in non-combat ways like these.

Obviously you should not think that these changes are by any means happening - just idle discussion right now.

Some questions.

1) How would cloak delay changes balance out the cloak against the scanner, exactly..? That seems far fetched.
2) What purpose is served by changing cloak delay other than to smoothen out the animation?

I tell myself they did it on purpose.

Some questions.

1) How would cloak delay changes balance out the cloak against the scanner, exactly..? That seems far fetched.
2) What purpose is served by changing cloak delay other than to smoothen out the animation?

Would really rather hear pros and cons with what is on the table at the moment but if you feel there is absolutely no other way that to start from scratch with a whole new set of proposals then I can't stop you.

I agree with making the cloak less visible while moving. We've had this discussion awhile ago. I think it will do a lot to make the cloak more viable as a tool, not an attack weapon. Right now it does not really perform a solid function, and for that reason there is little incentive to fit it on a scout.
Part of the problem is also the delay. It is very clunky and not smooth in animation or function. Inverting the invisibility may make this less of an issue as you are less likely to be spotted and forced into a switch at an inopportune time. So perhaps it it may not need to change, though it is an extremely long delay. Something closer to the transition time between of the HMG or slightly longer than the Breach Flaylock would still be effective at countering the Attack Cloak problem as you would still not be able to fire from the cloak, or initiate the engagement from a cloaked state.
I would also note that the cloak delay would be a viable way to balance out scanner usage.

Edit: I (And many others) would like Cloak delay to be looked at. If you could drop that info into a discussion with the CPM and Devs it would be great.

In the vast majority of cases, removing the red chevron while cloaked will not help those of us who dampen as those of who dampen usually don't have red chevrons overhead. It isn't a bad idea, but I think we can do better, be it through a quick fix or something more protracted.

Would really rather hear pros and cons with what is on the table at the moment but if you feel there is absolutely no other way that to start from scratch with a whole new set of proposals then I can't stop you.

What breaks if we retool the scout cloak bonus to a flat 75% fitting reduction rather than this step tier that allows you to fit a std cloak at scout leve 2 if you forgo modules?

Feedback Continued, Part II

If you're willing to hear options other than those you've provided, I'd be glad to offer my two cents:

Step 1 - Intra-Class Parity

The AM Scout is trailing behind the others and should be brought up-to-speed; this is something a quick fix aimed at the entire class will not likely accomplish. I would suggest changing its Precision Bonus to either a healthy bonus to ScP Damage & Reload Speed (i.e. +5% per level) or to a flat, substantial bonus to Biotic Efficacy (thinking +7% per level).

Step 2 - Inter-Class Parity

Next, I'd focus on improving Scout performance vis a vis cloak improvements.

It may not seem like a big deal, but fumbling around with cloak gets even the most experienced of us killed all too often. I'm not at all referring to decloak murders or "predator kills" ... simply turning on cloak to aid in escape/evade is a royal pain-in-the-arse thanks to present delays. Do absolutely keep a lengthy cloak deactivation delay intact to prevent fire-from-cloak, but kindly remove the clunky and unnecessary equip/unequip delays. If the deactivation delay is for some reason bound to the other delays, then try shortening the delays from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds. Every half second counts when your TTK is measured in half seconds.

Additionally, I'd recommend a slight increase to cloak's active damp bonus such that an AM or MN Scout running one complex dampener could beat 21dB Active Scans when proto cloaked. If my numbers are correct, an increase of only 5% should do the trick (0-5-10% to 5-10-15%).

Given the redundancy of Falloff, I'd recommend reducing cloakblind from 85% to 50% and setting the scout's base scan range equal to that of the Logi. Like you said, designs change. The reasons behind cloak and EWAR nerfs pre-Falloff do not necessarily apply post-Falloff.

Lastly, toning down shimmer would dramatically help cloak serve its intended role. If "opacity" isn't a server side value, inverting transparency is a very interesting work-around. Would love to see a demonstration.

This is something worth noting as a con
If Cheveron does not appear while cloaked, would this diminish the need for damps and increase HP stacked scouts?
Seems like it might.