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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 178 post(s) |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7098
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:08:00 -
[30241] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
@ Shotty
I think the mess we are in is an even larger problem than that. Gal Logis would need a role, and I don't know how helpful that would be to CA and AM overall. Its become sort of a bulky cumbersome situation and I can't even begin to see what is what with regards to changes with any degree of certainty.
Please see v2.0 above. I don't think that the mess is too complex for us to untangle. Would be interesting to reread this thread to see who most accurately predicted these problems (my money's on Spademan  ).
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
22372
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 17:09:00 -
[30242] - Quote
I propose that we describe a gaming law.
Anything that can be exploited, will be exploited.
Expecting people to refrain from using high end gear because it hurts new players is silly. People will always protostomps, because it gives them an advantage. If an advantage can be obtained, people will use it. Honour is not a concept that you can apply to conflict, because there will always be people who don't care about your idea of honour.
Should matches be so one sided? No. But expecting a large body of players to self regulate and sort the imbalances out themselves is completely unrealistic.
The only way an imbalance will be fixed is by correct developer intervention.
A comprehensive Gallente guide
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
10066
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:15:00 -
[30243] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Incoming massive post about gungame headed to GD.
Anyone interested in learning how to fire, Press R1. Move the left stick from left to right. Quote:and be aware of your surroundings please look it up. Move the right stick around. fofofo
Basically this, but I'm going into more detail and linking videos.
Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman.
Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe.
Nobody messes with my family
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
8131
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:33:00 -
[30244] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I propose that we describe a gaming law. Anything that can be exploited, will be exploited. Expecting people to refrain from using high end gear because it hurts new players is silly. People will always protostomps, because it gives them an advantage. If an advantage can be obtained, people will use it. Honour is not a concept that you can apply to conflict, because there will always be people who don't care about your idea of honour. Should matches be so one sided? No. But expecting a large body of players to self regulate and sort the imbalances out themselves is completely unrealistic. The only way an imbalance will be fixed is by correct developer intervention.
Expecting people to behave a certain way is not the same as encouraging them to and using logic to point out the flaws in their thinking/apathy.
I don't expect people to not abuse bad mechanics, but I can always do what I can to encourage others to be better than that.
Not all changes happen all at once, and there certainly are ways that community support can make change.
Getting back to the original point, Ghost was wondering why people thought of FA the way they did. If you can expect people to exploit problems, you can also expect people to have an extreme distaste for those that choose to do so at the expense of others. Its not unlike the physics of having a reaction for every action.
He asked what he was supposed to do given the circumstances, and I gave my perspective.
I by no means have expectations that everyone cares enough about Dust to do their part in making it better, but Ghost had sincere questions and concerns and I simply gave him my sincere answers based on my views and experience to the best of my ability.
Again, they can be taken or ignored to whatever degrees you wish.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
22375
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Posted - 2015.03.01 17:46:00 -
[30245] - Quote
The statement I most had a problem with was this:
Quote:
People can blame CCP all they want, but CCP doesn't make anyone do anything. They may have poor matchmaking, but they don't force people to abuse it. They may have a poor NPE, but they can't force people to sit and do nothing about it themselves. People choose to either be proactive and do as much as possible given their limitations in not being devs themselves, or they can just say F*ck it and play however they want with no regard to consequence, and then hypocritically blame someone else for a failure they themselves actively hastened with indifference.
This implies that the fault of stomping lies entirely with the player.
It does not.
Sometimes, I am put into matches filled with players who are clearly either very new at the game or are not very good at it. Even if I run BPO gear in these matches, I will slaughter them.
Am I abusing matchmaking by beating these players so thoroughly? I did not choose to go into a match with such players. Should I deliberately handicap my play so that it is easier for them, having already started using gear on a par with theirs?
Should I intentionally die against them where I could easily have beaten them so that they have a better experience?
It isn't fair to blame players for poor matchmaking. You can't 'abuse' the matchmaker. It's just terrible.
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited.
Gallente Guide
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Sinboto Simmons
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
7844
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:01:00 -
[30246] - Quote
Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro .
Sinboto - The True Blood Minja
Forum Warrior level 5 Prof 2
Born of the Brutor tribe
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
622
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:06:00 -
[30247] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Integer tweaks alone aren't going to fix the Role Bleed in the Recon Department. But I see your point; too many moving parts. Will try again ...
Idea: EWAR Untangled, V2.0 (now with Integer Tweaks!)
* CA Scout - Change bonus to Scan Precision + Range
* AM Scout - Change bonus to Biotics Efficacy
* GA Logi - Change bonus to Scan Duration + Cooldown
* Pro Active Scanners - Buff 20dB to 18 dB, 28dB to 25 dB
* Adv Active Scanners - Buff 36 dB to 33 dB
* Bsc Active Scanners - Buff 46 dB to 40 dB
* Cloak - Reduce cloak-blind from 85% to 45%
* Logis - Buff non-EWAR attribute(s) (i.e. speed, tank, pricing, EQ performance, etc)
EWAR Untangled, V2.1 (to follow)
If GalLogi remains only competitive recon unit, reduce cloak-blind from 45% to 25%
If CalScout becomes the only competitive recon unit, increase cloak-blind from 45% to 65%
If GalLogi and CalScout appear to be "sharing" the role of competitive recon, then make no change
Passive scanning is nobody's role. It is just a tool that suit's use to help with their role. Passive scans are still useful on scouts. I still use a precision mod on many of my Min scout fits. The Amarr and Caldari bonuses are therefore not useless. It doesn't matter what the logi's passive scan stats are, they are logi's.
Personally I don't want to return to the time when Caldari scouts were expected to sit there doing nothing except counter other scouts by doing nothing.
I think buffing range extenders would help both Am and Cal scouts. If they are still poor then maybe your scout changes would be good (always liked biotic Amarr scouts), but we should establish that first. It probably wouldn't be necessary. Not to mention the problems you cause by completely changing people's bonuses.
I don't think cloak blind needs changing. It was very effective at removing our FOT8Ms status. You wouldn't get much wider support for it.
As you know, I like active the scanner proposal. But not because of scouts (much), but because it would allow damps on mediums to be more effective. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7104
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:10:00 -
[30248] - Quote
Sinboto Simmons wrote:Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro .
One cPE on your MinScout will drop your 15m mid-range scans from 36dB to 29dB; you'll still be blind as a heavy beyond 15 meters. If you're looking for reliable scans, you're better off running a Creodron Proximity Scanner. 28 dB at twice the range. Fires every 10 seconds. Shares results team-wide.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
8133
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:17:00 -
[30249] - Quote
Quote:
People can blame CCP all they want, but CCP doesn't make anyone do anything. They may have poor matchmaking, but they don't force people to abuse it. They may have a poor NPE, but they can't force people to sit and do nothing about it themselves. People choose to either be proactive and do as much as possible given their limitations in not being devs themselves, or they can just say F*ck it and play however they want with no regard to consequence, and then hypocritically blame someone else for a failure they themselves actively hastened with indifference.
If you read further down to the portion I underlined you will see that I did not absolve CCP of any culpability. Plus it was implied when I called their matchmaking poor and their NPE poor.
I don't believe that people can entirely compensate for the imbalance, but I do believe that people can and should make some effort to minimize it.
If a team finds itself having redlined someone, perhaps they can hang back for a moment and allow the reds to gain a little ground and give them some breathing room.
I know what you mean because I run standard fits, but sometimes find myself on a stomping side, and can still do pretty well in those suits.
I also have my PLC/Melee fit which is cheap and for just situations. Its fun and gives me something to do instead of running my max dampened fits with Ishukone Knives.
My problem is less to do with people who are skilled, like to play to win, yet are being forced into mistmatched games, but rather those that ENJOY tormenting new players and tell people to just Get Gud. Its just another way of people enjoying kicking others when they are down and I am not ok with it.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
623
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:21:00 -
[30250] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro . One cPE on your MinScout will drop your 15m mid-range scans from 36dB to 29dB; you'll still be blind as a heavy beyond 15 meters. If you're looking for reliable scans, you're better off running a Creodron Proximity Scanner. 28 dB at twice the range. Fires every 10 seconds. Shares results team-wide. From my reading of your awesome scan table, 1 cpe on a Min scout will put your 30m scan from 47db to 37db, doubling the range at which you can pick up assaults.
Pretty useful imo. Particularly considering the 0 pg cost. |
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
22377
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:22:00 -
[30251] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro . One cPE on your MinScout will drop your 15m mid-range scans from 36dB to 29dB; you'll still be blind as a heavy beyond 15 meters. If you're looking for reliable scans, you're better off running a Creodron Proximity Scanner. 28 dB at twice the range. Fires every 10 seconds. Shares results team-wide.
This is the first time I have ever seen someone genuinely recommend the proxy scanner.
You are serious, right?
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited.
Gallente Guide
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7105
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:22:00 -
[30252] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:[
1. Passive scanning is nobody's role. It is just a tool that suit's use to help with their role. Passive scans are still useful on scouts. I still use a precision mod on many of my Min scout fits. The Amarr and Caldari bonuses are therefore not useless. It doesn't matter what the logi's passive scan stats are, they are logi's.
2. Personally I don't want to return to the time when Caldari scouts were expected to sit there doing nothing except counter other scouts by doing nothing.
3. I think buffing range extenders would help both Am and Cal scouts. If they are still poor then maybe your scout changes would be good (always liked biotic Amarr scouts), but we should establish that first. It probably wouldn't be necessary. Not to mention the problems you cause by completely changing people's bonuses.
4. I don't think cloak blind needs changing. It was very effective at removing our FOT8Ms status. You wouldn't get much wider support for it.
5. As you know, I like active the scanner proposal. But not because of scouts (much), but because it would allow damps on mediums to be more effective.
1. Not Useless =/= Competitive. (The AM Scout has no real purpose/role; this concerns me.)
2. Agreed.
3. Would threaten backstab viability (?). Imagine if Falloff's "early warning" were twice as long.
4. Slayers migrated to Assault following Falloff, not following Cloakblind.
5. \o/ ... Jebus will be thrilled :-)
Please keep the feedback coming, Varoth.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7105
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:24:00 -
[30253] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro . One cPE on your MinScout will drop your 15m mid-range scans from 36dB to 29dB; you'll still be blind as a heavy beyond 15 meters. If you're looking for reliable scans, you're better off running a Creodron Proximity Scanner. 28 dB at twice the range. Fires every 10 seconds. Shares results team-wide. This is the first time I have ever seen someone genuinely recommend the proxy scanner. You are serious, right?
Yep. I run it on all three of my Assault suits (along with one cPE) as well as a couple of my MinScout loadouts.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
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Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
22377
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:26:00 -
[30254] - Quote
I am not sure what to think of this.
Also, anyone on DUST atm?
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited.
Gallente Guide
|
Dreis Shadowweaver
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
RISE of LEGION
2018
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:30:00 -
[30255] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am not sure what to think of this.
Also, anyone on DUST atm?
I'm just about to get on. 
Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel
Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3
Amature ADS Pilot
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7105
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:33:00 -
[30256] - Quote
Arkena Wyrnspire wrote:I am not sure what to think of this.
I'm running Shotgun on my Assault gk.0 and mk.0 and Scrambler on my ak.0.
I find the scans come in handy (and I seldom find myself out for ammo with these guns).
Have to drop the scanner for hives when I run Breach AR.
Jolly got me hooked on the gun, it goes great w/ GalAssault.
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
10075
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:36:00 -
[30257] - Quote
It's done.
How to GunGame 101, with videos and pictures to help.
I really wish I had recording software.
Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman.
Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe.
Nobody messes with my family
|
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
7105
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:44:00 -
[30258] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:It's done. How to GunGame 101, with videos and pictures to help. I really wish I had recording software.
"Ghost's Gun Game Guide" archived. 
Shoot scout with yes.
- Ripley Riley
|
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
519
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:45:00 -
[30259] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:
It's ok you can use "voidfaction" instead of "idiotbluedot199"
Unacceptable. You must not sell yourself short.! You are AWESOME, so LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT.
@Ghost
In it's purest form, playing at your best every time is the only way to truly show respect to your opponent. This is the only absolute truth in competition.
Play by the rules that are actually in game (not made up rules between players), don't use glitches, but otherwise do whatever you can to win. Only then can we look each other in the eyes and say Good Game.
You can stomp me any day and I will fight like a madman right back. Then we can truly be comrades and learn what fighting spirit really is.
People who send you hate mail do not search for that level of respect or love of battle. You must not let that bother you. Let it go, don't let it change you.
@Adipem
I have more respect for you every day. Thank you for being the shepherd that you are. (even though I don't really agree gal logi is OP XD ) |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
10082
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 18:46:00 -
[30260] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:It's done. How to GunGame 101, with videos and pictures to help. I really wish I had recording software. "Ghost's Gun Game Guide" archived.
Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman.
Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe.
Nobody messes with my family
|
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Llast 326
An Arkhos
6878
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Posted - 2015.03.01 18:58:00 -
[30261] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:It's done. How to GunGame 101, with videos and pictures to help. I really wish I had recording software.
LMAO that Ark combo breakered your thread
After the death threats muttered about me hovering around the Gal guide 
MOAR Ladders
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
521
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Posted - 2015.03.01 19:01:00 -
[30262] - Quote
Haerr wrote:
[...]
Unfortunately that pervasive mindset is likely to fester and grow in such barred communities, in fact legitimising the childish QQ cries of " YOU CAN'T DO THAT! :'( " and " IT'S NOT FAIR! :'( ".
[...]
I think most of you guys don't play fighting games competitively, so I will point this out:
The above is the TRUE definition of a SCRUB. Someone who claims a tactic is "cheap" or "unfair" even though it is being used as intended and is part of the game.
Examples:
Blocking is cheap ! No blocking !!
Grabs are dirty, no grabs allowed, man !!
He through projectiles at me the whole game and stayed at max range !! This is BS !!
Food for thought ! Think about this next time you use the S word. |
Arkena Wyrnspire
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
22381
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:09:00 -
[30263] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
I'm running Shotgun on my Assault gk.0
x plane
Anything that can be exploited will be exploited.
Gallente Guide
|
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
522
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Posted - 2015.03.01 19:10:00 -
[30264] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:
[...]
I don't believe that people can entirely compensate for the imbalance, but I do believe that people can and should make some effort to minimize it.
[...]
I understand what you are saying 100000% and your intentions are of the highest caliber. I only want to add one thing to what you said:
It's only by abusing what is broken that the "ecosystem" (the game) can be fixed by "nature" (ccp). We can take it upon ourselves to never touch the apple on the tree. But someone, someday is going to do it. Let's prove it's broken and get it fixed instead of pretending it doesn't exist, leaving it for an elite few to abuse.
I don't condone abuse in ANY WAY, I just want to make that clear. |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
Negative-Feedback
10087
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:15:00 -
[30265] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Haerr wrote:
[...]
Unfortunately that pervasive mindset is likely to fester and grow in such barred communities, in fact legitimising the childish QQ cries of " YOU CAN'T DO THAT! :'( " and " IT'S NOT FAIR! :'( ".
[...]
I think most of you guys don't play fighting games competitively, so I will point this out: The above is the TRUE definition of a SCRUB. Someone who claims a tactic is "cheap" or "unfair" even though it is being used as intended and is part of the game. Examples: Blocking is cheap ! No blocking !! Grabs are dirty, no grabs allowed, man !! He through projectiles at me the whole game and stayed at max range !! This is BS !! Food for thought ! Think about this next time you use the S word.
I've been learning how to play melty blood actually
And yes, Kaeru is correct in his definition. Here is a tvtropes article on "Scrub". Still one of my favorite ways to review if something is broken or if I'm just upset that I'm having trouble countering it.
Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman.
Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe.
Nobody messes with my family
|
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
522
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:16:00 -
[30266] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Sinboto Simmons wrote:Grinding for proto precision, should that fail to give results, grinding for the original logibro . One cPE on your MinScout will drop your 15m mid-range scans from 36dB to 29dB; you'll still be blind as a heavy beyond 15 meters able to pickup undampened Assaults from 15-30m. If you're looking for reliable scans, you might be better off running a Creodron Proximity Scanner. 28 dB at twice the range. Fires every 10 seconds. Shares results team-wide.
I can't bring myself to run my min scout without 2x complex precision enhancers. I need at least that, but why do I feel alone in this, these days? Sure there are still things you can't pick up. Don't concern yourselves with absolutes too much. You will find 95% of what matters to you with that setup. |
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
525
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:19:00 -
[30267] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:[...] I've been learning how to play melty blood actually And yes, Kaeru is correct in his definition. Here is a tvtropes article on "Scrub". Still one of my favorite ways to review if something is broken or if I'm just upset that I'm having trouble countering it.
I've been up and down the east coast playing Blazblue and Guilty Gear in tournaments. I love it so much !! Hope to meet you someday. Melty is a great game, I promised someone i'd pick it up but haven't quite yet. Maybe you can teach me !!! |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
625
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:26:00 -
[30268] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:And yes, Kaeru is correct in his definition. Here is a tvtropes article on "Scrub". Still one of my favorite ways to review if something is broken or if I'm just upset that I'm having trouble countering it.
Fascinating article. I never new the true meaning. |
One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
8141
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:32:00 -
[30269] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:One Eyed King wrote:
[...]
I don't believe that people can entirely compensate for the imbalance, but I do believe that people can and should make some effort to minimize it.
[...]
I understand what you are saying 100000% and your intentions are of the highest caliber. I only want to add one thing to what you said: It's only by abusing what is broken that the "ecosystem" (the game) can be fixed by "nature" (ccp). We can take it upon ourselves to never touch the apple on the tree. But someone, someday is going to do it. Let's prove it's broken and get it fixed instead of pretending it doesn't exist, leaving it for an elite few to abuse. I don't condone abuse in ANY WAY, I just want to make that clear.
Just remember that there are breaking points, and that something can be abused until the break is beyond repair (ie irreversible climate change or worldwide thermo nuclear war).
Your intention may be to demonstrate something is broken and should be fixed, but when the externality is turning away new players in droves and the overall decrease of the population in game as a whole, then intentions become meaningless.
For all we know CCP could have behaved in a way that has put Dust in a position well beyond that point, but I prefer to think optimistically.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
RUST415
626
|
Posted - 2015.03.01 19:34:00 -
[30270] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:1. Not Useless =/= Competitive. (The AM Scout has no real purpose/role; this concerns me.)
3. Would threaten backstab viability (?). Imagine if Falloff's "early warning" were twice as long.
4. Slayers migrated to Assault following Falloff, not following Cloakblind.
Please keep the feedback coming, Varoth.
1. Probably best to look at buffs then, rather than complete changes. Best to try fixing range amps first though. Are Amarr scouts really that bad? Different scouts don't really have / need drastically different roles. They just do the same thing, scout, in slightly different ways.
3. Range amps still need fixing. I think they should only work on the larger scan circles to prevent the issues you bring up.
4. It's a combination of many factors, cloak blind being one. The slayer migration was (reasonably) gradual.
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