This honestly surprises me because it answers literally ever single concern from your list (at least with regards to me, the individual you have been directly conversing with).

Aeon's been arguing for the specifics of where the assaults should lay on the curve, not arguing that they shouldn't (at least not anymore)

Then who do I need talk to that will be concerned with the issues I've brought up without it being related to this universally applied method? Because I find it unfair that we can't provide feedback in defense of our wants/needs unless it is directly related to this.

Added "Thokk's Model" ... started with a sprint multipliers of 1.3 for Assaults and 1.4 for Logis. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values.

> Google Doc <


Personal Opinion:
Logis sprinting faster than Scouts is potentially problematic. (my two cents)

If his only advocacy is that a certain set of specifics be employed, and it has been understood that my stance does not exist for or against any set of specifics, only that all specifics be applied fairly to every role via one methodology.

You're a CPM representative - who else was I supposed to talk to..? That's why I asked you who I needed to speak to in that earlier post. I wanted to discuss specifics.

EDIT: Like - I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve BS, I am, I just want you to understand that. But I also want to be clear that I want to discuss specifics and if you're not going to advocate or discuss specifics I need to know who I can talk to that will.

MOOOAAAR HP - TANK LOGIS!!! Sounds like a blast, put me right next to my Amarr Sentinel brother. Logi's become slow logi stations and not a character that can follow the squad. Interesting... but I don't know how fun it would be until we tried it.

Added "Red's Model" ... current speeds maintained, a substantial increase to base HP would be required to fit Logis to the curve. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values.

> Google Doc <


Personal Opinion:
A different approach, but it definitely fit the curve :-)

If we want to tone it down just a touch so Logis CAN'T get into Scout territory unless the Scout is fully brick tanked, I'd be OK with that too.

I think there is meret to giving assauots more sprint speed so that they can apply pressure more readily, but strafe speed is the main reason assaults have such a lead in kills/spawn over other suits. It is hard to strafe as a commando/sentinel because you simply aren't as fast. Super straify, 650eHP cal scouts also do this strategy, and high hp + speed means hard to kill suits. And whether or not hit detection is an issue, you do have people from all around the world with different quality internet connections playing together, and some people benefit from their lack of relative connection quality. Especially people who change position rapidly.

Let us not forget that assaults suits have the highest kills/spawn, and their ubiquity on the battlefield is likely indicative of their performance. They have speed, and hp, so they can tank well, and twitch back and forth. There is a reason that this proposal was created in the first place. I urge any developers read this to not focus too much on feedback from players that want theor suits to be powerful, and try looking at the data.

Min Assault is SPLIT between tanks NOT dual tanked. Speed is the best defense for us. Makes us susceptible to Sheild and Armor based weapons. We also have to use a balance of Energizer/Recharger + Regulator + Armor rep to compete against High damage weapons Like RR and ScrR. Min Assault was already nerfed once. Caldari w Overtank Sheilds and Complex Ferroscale plates...CBT rifle almost stands still against it. Flanking + Speed + dual regen is what I have. Don't listen to this Clown!

... I'm cool with this EHP/Speed curve

... A dedicated middle-ground slayer after these changes (situated above the 4.5m/s margin)

... why, again, we can't just bring Logi's up to par with Assaults and just hit Assault's EHP, keeping them both at the same speed.

I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts?

Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design.

If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this:

Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30?

Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve.

Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now.

Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal.

Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault.

Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit.

The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).

Why would you nerf assault speed and then bonus assault speed?

Every single post telling rattati no has been the most thinly veiled cover for self interest from people who want their top fit to remain the top fit AT ALL COSTS

Ratatti's suggestion was to fit assaults onto the curve, but buff their sprint modifier so they can still be fast.

I don't like the idea of changing sprint modifiers as I think it's over complicated and not very transparent. Also, some people aren't happy with just having high sprint speed, they want high run speed aswell. So as an alternative I suggest giving assaults a speed bonus instead. Which would both be more transparent and maintain both good speed and sprint.

Thanks for the spreadsheets Adipem. Regarding "my" model, I wasn't stating what I personally think should happen, but what Rattati suggested he might do to tweak his original proposal, based on feedback. So really this an approximate Rattati's latest proposal. Though it wasn't formal, and was likely to change. Still, it's the latest word. Except I believe Min assault speeds are a little higher on the sheet than his design.

If I was going to design a proposal, I'd go with this:

Reduce Assault hp by 50 (half as much reduction as Aeon's tab). Or maybe only around 30? Reduce speed by about 0.3, which should get them onto the curve. Give assaults a bonus to movement speed, 1% per level. At level 5 this should give them speeds almost equal to what they have now. Increase logi and commando speeds as per Rattati's proposal.

Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it. Allowing them to be light weapon, frontal attack slayers, but unlike commandos, they rely on speed more than brute strength and high defence. Scouts will be faster, and logis will be almost as fast, but neither have the hp, fitting, or bonuses to beat assaults at frontal assault.

Keep sprint and strafe multiplyers what they are now. Tweak stamina so it makes sense. Maybe tweak Min assault speed or hp a bit.

The speed hp curve will be good. Assaults have a role defined by their bonus. Assaults as a whole will suffer a small nerf, which hopefully will balance them when compared to scouts and sentinels. (Though cloaks probably still need fixing for true balance).

Deathwind, I hate to break it to you, but those attributes do not translate to 1:1 equivalent value.

At all.

Right now HP and speed have the sharpest curve to suitability just as profile and scans did four months ago.


The HP to speed is the hardest ratio to tweak to a balance. Once we have that baseline the other attributes can also be tweaked to fine-tune the suits to equality of utility.

The ewar system needs an overhaul in entire and I'm imagining Rattati eyeballing a broadsword whenever the prospect of trying to fix THAT disaster crosses his mind.

Smoothing the sharp, jagged edges of the HP/speed ratio gives a baseline and will show how much speed vs. HP matters. Then the curve can be expanded or contracted as needed to even out the values.

I would prefer it if the slowest race of the slowest role of a frame size is as quick as the fastest race of the fastest role of frame size:


Numbers!


,,Baseline,
Frame,Light,5.35,
Frame,Medium,4.75,
Frame,Heavy,4.15,
,,,
Role,Fast,0.15,
Role,Medium,0,
Role,Slow,-0.15,
,,,
Race,Fast,0.15,
Race,Medium,0,
Race,Slow,-0.15,
,,,
Frame,Role,Race,
Light,Fast,Fast,5.65
Light,Fast,Normal,5.5
Light,Fast,Slow,5.35
Light,Normal,Fast,5.5
Light,Normal,Normal,5.35
Light,Normal,Slow,5.2
Light,Slow,Fast,5.35
Light,Slow,Normal,5.2
Light,Slow,Slow,5.05
Medium,Fast,Fast,5.05
Medium,Fast,Normal,4.9
Medium,Fast,Slow,4.75
Medium,Normal,Fast,4.9
Medium,Normal,Normal,4.75
Medium,Normal,Slow,4.6
Medium,Slow,Fast,4.75
Medium,Slow,Normal,4.6
Medium,Slow,Slow,4.45
Heavy,Fast,Fast,4.45
Heavy,Fast,Normal,4.3
Heavy,Fast,Slow,4.15
Heavy,Normal,Fast,4.3
Heavy,Normal,Normal,4.15
Heavy,Normal,Slow,4
Heavy,Slow,Fast,4.15
Heavy,Slow,Normal,4
Heavy,Slow,Slow,3.85



Scout: 2 EQ (Light, Fast)
Light Frame: 2 EQ (Light, Normal)
Pilot: (Light, Slow)

Assault: 1 EQ (Medium, Fast)
Medium Frame: 2 EQ (Medium, Normal)
Logistics: 4 EQ (Medium, Slow)

Commando: 1 EQ (Heavy, Fast)
Heavy Frame: 0 EQ (Heavy, Normal)
Sentinel: 0 EQ (Heavy, Slow)

I also think that changing the sprint/strafe/backwards modifiers for a few specific suits is a reallly bad idea.

Added "Red's Model" ... current speeds maintained, a substantial increase to base HP would be required to fit Logis to the curve. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values.

> Google Doc <


Personal Opinion:
A different approach, but it definitely fit the curve :-)

* Basic Med and Basic Light staggered to the right of the progression (like type comparison).
* Assumed increase to Logi HP, decrease to Assault HP. Please advise.

Speed and hp together is now the assault suit's defining speciality. They fit the curve, but are bonused to break it.

Give logis same highs/lows and base HP/speed as assaults.

Start with that small change.

Tweak from there as necessary.

i'm finding trouble seeing how any of this will result in actual balance.

there are currently 33 pages concerning the balance of only two characteristics.

power (ability to deal damage)

defense (hp and regen)

mobility (movement, sprint, strafe, stamina/regen)

ewar (dropsuit profile, Precision, and range)

support (equipment)

(slot layout and fitting capacity serves only as a means to increase these characteristics)

these five characteristics are present for each and every suit in the game yet here we are only concerned with balancing two of them? how do we achieve overall balance by neglecting the other characteristics?

how does only adjusting speed and HP level of dropsuits and roles achieve overall balance?

where our current goal to keep players from achieving both high HP and speed values at the same time, it should be the opposite. high hp and high speed fits should be possible and allowed, but it should be balanced by reducing the other attributes.

If i gave you 5 points to divide up among those five characteristics we would have balance.