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[Suggestion] Reduce Squad Size

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1640	Posted - 2015.01.12 01:27:00 - [1] - Quote It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exists, do they outweigh the benefits?
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2015.01.12 02:31:00 - [2] - Quote Stomper will just qsync. Though Team size 16 is evenly dividable by 4. Scanning results are team wide now anyways
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1641	Posted - 2015.01.12 02:41:00 - [3] - Quote pumping up wrote: Stomper will just qsync. At which point team-building steps in and serves the fairest fight possible. Sync'd stomp squads would more often than not be pitted against one another. They'd only be placed together if team-building rates the opposing force sufficiently competent to oppose two high-Mu squads. In both cases, the odds of a fair fight are higher than today's.
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 725	Posted - 2015.01.12 02:51:00 - [4] - Quote With the current player size per match yes. 6 is not divided by 16 so Idk why CCP thought it would be fine to up the squad size to 6 when 4 worked fine. Inb4 players who depend on their 6 man squad come into this thread telling you to "git gud" Changes to Damage mods!
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 725	Posted - 2015.01.12 02:58:00 - [5] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exists, do they outweigh the benefits? The only drawback is that you won't be able to stomp randoms with 2 more guys. Changes to Damage mods!
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3493	Posted - 2015.01.12 04:47:00 - [6] - Quote Pros: Helps my OCD Cons: I have more than 3 friends "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 14486	Posted - 2015.01.12 04:53:00 - [7] - Quote The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3494	Posted - 2015.01.12 05:13:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2720	Posted - 2015.01.12 05:16:00 - [9] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Could gray out the public contracts section. It could work. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4158	Posted - 2015.01.12 05:27:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. If you could vary squad size by game mode that would pretty amazing I think. Is it possible to actually allow a squad of 16 in planetary conquest? That would getting people into a battle WAY WAY easier. What if squad size was 4 and then you could link up varying numbers of squads depending on the game mode in the vein of platoons that's been mentioned before? Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

voidfaction Nos Nothi 936	Posted - 2015.01.12 05:30:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I vote for the 4 man squads in pubs. That is all I play to try to have fun and shoot some people. Give some isk payout in FW so maybe the big corps or squads will move to FW and leave the pubs for the anti-social like me. FW does not pay for the expense of battle. It seems to me a bracket would be so easy making pubs the low meta 40 gear (adv gear) for fun and learning to work in small squads. I run a 13 meta suit most of the time and can do well when not being proto stomped or vs a stacked team. When you want more competitive squad play you move up to FW with isk payout and no meta lockout. PC is already there for BIG CORPS to battle it out in full proto tactical squads. Then all we would need is scotty not to put the 4 4 man squads on 1 team and all solo/noobs on the other If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1579	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:32:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 726	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:38:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. For FW is okay. As anything goes in there. Only place I actually don't call people scrubs for using proto because those battles have actual outcomes on Eve and well, it is crucial to win. Keep it up Rattati. A 4 man squad should have fun playing pubs. Changes to Damage mods!
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 727	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:42:00 - [14] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. Easy, want to play with all your friends then play some FW Pub stomping should be stopped, or reduced at least. 4 man squads will help this. Want to play with 6, 8 or all 16 of your friends? Go play or like acrubs Qsync for FW but leave pubs alone. Changes to Damage mods!
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 727	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:44:00 - [15] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Rattati listen to this guy! Changes to Damage mods!
LAVALLOIS Nash 415	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:48:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. i think a change like this is past due. People are concerned about "hanging out with friends", but they dont have to have all their friends with them at ever single moment of time they are logged in. Public Contracts is supposed to be a causal mode. It says in the description "For lone mercs or small squads". If people can have the same or bigger squads in FW and PC, they have their channels and chats...they will be able to be as social and spend as much time together as they want. it just wont be on the backs of new players in the only casual mode. When it comes to free to play FPS games, the goal is to have a large, casual, almost "free for all" mode that constantly active and not focused on a competitive edge. A mode like retains players by providing a place for quick fun ,and also feeds the competitive community, by allowing players enough time to develop their skills and desire to take it to the next level. Squads of 6 people fully dressed and practiced for PC matches going up against new players in militia suits is beyond ridiculous.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 938	Posted - 2015.01.12 07:58:00 - [17] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. They should just add in another option to the battle finder. 1. for lone mercenaries or small squads = solo to squad of 4 2. for large squads = large squads 3. faction = large squads 4. corp = full team I bet option 1 would have shorter wait time. I bet you still would not be happy either because it would be harder to pubstomp a bunch of solo/noobs because they would be in option 1. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4161	Posted - 2015.01.12 08:10:00 - [18] - Quote pumping up wrote: Though Team size 16 is evenly dividable by 4. Which makes me wonder if they could just increase match sizes to 18? If the game can be made to have areas where increasingly larger groups can be allowed is seems like it would be reasonable to allow other areas of the game to cater to smaller groups. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
DeadlyAztec11 Ostrakon Agency 7029	Posted - 2015.01.12 08:21:00 - [19] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. They should just add in another option to the battle finder. 1. for lone mercenaries or small squads = solo to squad of 4 2. for large squads = large squads 3. faction = large squads 4. corp = full team I bet option 1 would have shorter wait time. I bet you still would not be happy either because it would be harder to pubstomp a bunch of solo/noobs because they would be in option 1. I wonder if it would make it even more difficult to find a squad. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 2989	Posted - 2015.01.12 08:48:00 - [20] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: pumping up wrote: Though Team size 16 is evenly dividable by 4. Which makes me wonder if they could just increase match sizes to 18? If the game can be made to have areas where increasingly larger groups can be allowed is seems like it would be reasonable to allow other areas of the game to cater to smaller groups. Well I have personally witnessed 17 people on a team wayy back when, so I suspect going from 16 v 16 to 18 v 18 would not really change anything all that much. Why not! Try it CCP. Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? MY LIFE FOR AIUR!

shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3666	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:07:00 - [21] - Quote I still think that squad of 8 will reduce stomp even in pub match, provided MM don't put 2 full squad on the same side. Situational awareness also known as passive scan. Minmatar omni-merc
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4163	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:26:00 - [22] - Quote shaman oga wrote: I still think that squad of 8 will reduce stomp even in pub match, provided MM don't put 2 full squad on the same side. If you did this maybe you still have the squads of 4 that can link up? I do think that 8 man squads in pubs would make the problem worse though. The saying "teamwork is OP" is quite true in most cases. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
SponkSponkSponk WarRavens Capital Punishment. 1127	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:39:00 - [23] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I have been advocating this for over a year. I don't like it, personally, but many other games have restrictions like this precisely to improve matchmaking, and it works. Dust/Eve transfers
shaman oga Dead Man's Game 3666	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:40:00 - [24] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: shaman oga wrote: I still think that squad of 8 will reduce stomp even in pub match, provided MM don't put 2 full squad on the same side. If you did this maybe you still have the squads of 4 that can link up? I do think that 8 man squads in pubs would make the problem worse though. The saying "teamwork is OP" is quite true in most cases. Stomp is already a thing with squad of 6. With 16 players, there is room for two squad of 6 and one squad of 4. If squad are of 8, there is room for two squads of 8. So, if teamwork is OP, in current situation we have 3 squads using teamwork, with squad of 8 you have 2. Squad of 8 should also be easier to match one against the other, without "the intruder squad of 4". The other benefit is have more friends to play with you. Situational awareness also known as passive scan. Minmatar omni-merc
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 893	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:47:00 - [25] - Quote i do agree with the 16 person squad. it would make organizing and deployment for pc way more easier for everybody. AE.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 941	Posted - 2015.01.12 10:57:00 - [26] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Kain Spero wrote: shaman oga wrote: I still think that squad of 8 will reduce stomp even in pub match, provided MM don't put 2 full squad on the same side. If you did this maybe you still have the squads of 4 that can link up? I do think that 8 man squads in pubs would make the problem worse though. The saying "teamwork is OP" is quite true in most cases. Stomp is already a thing with squad of 6. With 16 players, there is room for two squad of 6 and one squad of 4. If squad are of 8, there is room for two squads of 8. So, if teamwork is OP, in current situation we have 3 squads using teamwork, with squad of 8 you have 2. Squad of 8 should also be easier to match one against the other, without "the intruder squad of 4". The other benefit is have more friends to play with you. You said it. Stomp is already a thing with squad of 6. So lets make it easier to stomp and make pub squad size 8 If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 0	Posted - 2015.01.12 11:03:00 - [27] - Quote Hello, I thank in PUBs that would be fine, but in FW I thank it would stay the same. If you read the PuB match "for lone players and small squads". I thank that the "Small Squads" (SS) need to be 4-4. Then FW we need 9-10 men in a squad just to follow the story line. We some thing to stop the lag, (if your squad lead) it's bad. We (Knightkiller's Inc) lag/DC 8 out of 10 match's we play. We don't Q sinc sadly there is only two or four of us in a squad at a time.......
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 733	Posted - 2015.01.12 11:28:00 - [28] - Quote Ryanjr TUG wrote: Hello, I thank in PUBs that would be fine, but in FW I thank it would stay the same. If you read the PuB match "for lone players and small squads". I thank that the "Small Squads" (SS) need to be 4-4. Then FW we need 9-10 men in a squad just to follow the story line. We some thing to stop the lag, (if your squad lead) it's bad. We (Knightkiller's Inc) lag/DC 8 out of 10 match's we play. We don't Q sinc sadly there is only two or four of us in a squad at a time....... Have your first +1 bro Changes to Damage mods!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 699	Posted - 2015.01.12 11:48:00 - [29] - Quote Hell no. I should not have to pick and choose my friends to play with because you dont have any. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Lahut K'mar duna corp 14	Posted - 2015.01.12 11:54:00 - [30] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Personally, I'm against squad shrinking. Dust is all about teamwork and nerfing teamwork is defecating all over everything. However, I could live with this idea. PS: Squad up. PSS: Git gud. Horrifying? That's a strange way to spell "romantic". FIX THE WHEEL, CCP!

Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 647	Posted - 2015.01.12 13:27:00 - [31] - Quote I would think about increasing player count in matches before even considering touching squads.
Zene Ren Bragian Order Amarr Empire 92	Posted - 2015.01.12 14:00:00 - [32] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: I would think about increasing player count in matches before even considering touching squads. +1 can we at last get our 18 man teams? damn how long we can wait for promised increased number of people in match? Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 186	Posted - 2015.01.12 14:16:00 - [33] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. IMO there needs to be a team deploy option but ofc this would be terrible for the other side if they are solo players or in small 2 man or 3 man squads. Many in my corp (before the majority got interested in other games) seemed to want to be able to sync deploy an entire team as a way to practice working together in preparation for PC battles. There is still a very good reason to make more friends to deploy with and having 8 man squads would be awesome. The mechanic of making the squad before battle needs adjusting. If you put an option in scotty to sync up mercs for battle based on squad size likely the issue would be resolved with a better balance to teams. removing the limit on squad size or adding a platoon (multiple squads) deploy and formation options then it solves multiple issues at once. How long til this hits PC?
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 2	Posted - 2015.01.12 14:50:00 - [34] - Quote Lahut K'mar wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Personally, I'm against squad shrinking. Dust is all about teamwork and nerfing teamwork is defecating all over everything. However, I could live with this idea. PS: Squad up. PSS: Git gud. Hello, that's true, but look at it like this PUBs - For new players to train, try out to kits, Etc..... FW- PC training, big squads, pro stomping, Qsinc, Eve support, Etc... Pc- I don't know I have never wanted to do one. Want to be Dust 514 new helper :)
Bright Steel Horizons' Edge 737	Posted - 2015.01.12 15:03:00 - [35] - Quote Ryanjr TUG wrote: Lahut K'mar wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Personally, I'm against squad shrinking. Dust is all about teamwork and nerfing teamwork is defecating all over everything. However, I could live with this idea. PS: Squad up. PSS: Git gud. Hello, that's true, but look at it like this PUBs - For new players to train, try out to kits, Etc..... FW- PC training, big squads, pro stomping, Qsinc, Eve support, Etc... Pc- I don't know I have never wanted to do one. This would make pubs high sec to mirror eve... Concord can regulate meta level in pubs??? Dust 514, the BEST WORST game you can't stop playing.
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 4	Posted - 2015.01.12 15:31:00 - [36] - Quote Bright Steel wrote: Ryanjr TUG wrote: Lahut K'mar wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Personally, I'm against squad shrinking. Dust is all about teamwork and nerfing teamwork is defecating all over everything. However, I could live with this idea. PS: Squad up. PSS: Git gud. Hello, that's true, but look at it like this PUBs - For new players to train, try out to kits, Etc..... FW- PC training, big squads, pro stomping, Qsinc, Eve support, Etc... Pc- I don't know I have never wanted to do one. This would make pubs high sec to mirror eve... Concord can regulate meta level in pubs??? Hello , No, PUBs don't follow the eve online story at all. C.C.P made dust 514 like that when I can take my minatar BPO's to an Amarr FW... That would not happened back to this now...... I am not going here, because I will be not following the rules .... Thanks Want to be Dust 514 new player helper :) room: Knight Killers Pub join
Stryker Syx Vector D3ATH CARD RUST415 71	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:07:00 - [37] - Quote Why not add corp battles?
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 4	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:13:00 - [38] - Quote Stryker Syx Vector wrote: Why not add corp battles? Hello what dose that have to do with this title "Reduce Squad Size"? I Want to help Dust 514 new players :) room: Knight Killers Pub CEO of TUG
Alex-ZX Valor Coalition Red Whines. 158	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:28:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Make squads fighting squads and solos fighting solos. Is a b########### when u are solo and u face a full team of 16 proto teddies, ( is easy survive by nit### out but new players will be stomped, LOL) Alex's modified ZX-030 HMG Luis' modified VC-107 CR Alex's modified VC-107 SMG *Owner of this beasts*
lee corwood Knights Of Ender RISE of LEGION 1119	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:28:00 - [40] - Quote It would definitely cut down the number of chat channels I'd have to have. Is there any foreseeable red flags on how performance would be affected with larger squad channels being active? Or would it be almost the exact same as today since qsyncing teams create new chat channels anyways? Just curious. Knights of Ender Director Logi 4 Life \| Youtube Vids

Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 4	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:31:00 - [41] - Quote Alex-ZX wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Make squads fighting squads and solos fighting solos. Is a b########### when u are solo and u face a full team of 16 proto teddies, ( is easy survive by nit### out but new players will be stomped, LOL) Hello, that is the dum. Q sinc vs Q sinc . More like it then leave squad alone I Want to help Dust 514 new players :) room: Knight Killers Pub CEO of TUG
iKILLu osborne Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 584	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:34:00 - [42] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. z platoon approves if you shoot me from the redline i will ensure your death will be a swift one
GLOBAL fils'de RAGE Consolidated Dust 135	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:46:00 - [43] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. The only stomping occuring is when a team has 2 or 3 players that are "blue shield" laggers. why are laggers given near invincibility and better hit detection than low latency players? why is CCP silent on the daily posts that the poster questions latency and hit dtection? why not add a ping index next to each players name on the game scorecard @ end of game?
Ryanjr TUG KnightKiller's inc. 4	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:01:00 - [44] - Quote GLOBAL fils'de RAGE wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. The only stomping occuring is when a team has 2 or 3 players that are "blue shield" laggers. why are laggers given near invincibility and better hit detection than low latency players? why is CCP silent on the daily posts that the poster questions latency and hit dtection? why not add a ping index next to each players name on the game scorecard @ end of game? Because C.C.P support hacking, and laggers, cheaters, etc... C.C.P also supports the AFKers, because I have ask lots of time to make it stop... this goes with q sincs also..... CCP Has never posted me back on this subject..... CCP open your eyes this is ruining your game I Want to help Dust 514 new players :) room: Knight Killers Pub CEO of TUG
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 903	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:26:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Design document: - Squads go up to 8 players. - If attempting to join a FW match with more than 6 players, Scotty rejects the squad, squadleader receives "Squad too large, reduce to 6" error message. - If attempting to join a pub match with more than 4 players, Scotty rejects the squad, squadleader receives "Squad too large, reduce to 4" error message. - If attempting to join 6 man squad in FW during the match, receive "Squad is full" error message. - If attempting to join 4 man squad in pub during match, receive "Squad is full" error message. - If squad managed to deploy into FW/pub with more than 6/4 people, boot excessive players (always design a failsafe - especially when you don't have the manhours to do proper QA). Do it.
Jebus McKing Jebus Hates Scans 1282	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:12:00 - [46] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. What he said. +1 Back in the day when we could have at least one decent 6-players squad on each side it made sense and was a good thing to have 6-players squads. But nowadays what usually happens is that you have a 6-players squad on one side against 16 randoms on the other side, which is not fun for either side. 4-players squads won't fix stomping entirely but it should help a bit and thus hopefully make matches less one-sided and more interesting. FW getting 8+ players per squad also sounds like a great idea and has the potential to make FW more interesting for corps. You have been scanned
Ashley Swift G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 32	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:27:00 - [47] - Quote If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Now that you're close I feel like coming undone
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1667	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:29:00 - [48] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate?
ADAM-OF-EVE Dead Man's Game RUST415 1899	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:34:00 - [49] - Quote ambush - no squad domi - 6-8 man skirm - 4 man i think this would make each game mode perfect for different squad sizes All Hail Legion
Ashley Swift G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 32	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:35:00 - [50] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate? CCP has already derailed the fun in this game over the course of the last year. Between ruining vehicles, equipment, orbitals, then onto suits and playstyles. Bringing down squads from 6 to 4 equals less fun for the squad and now unobtainable orbitals. Want to fix protostomping? Remove Officer weapons and Prototype suits and weapons from pubs. Problem = fixed. Now that you're close I feel like coming undone

Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 742	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:43:00 - [51] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate? CCP has already derailed the fun in this game over the course of the last year. Between ruining vehicles, equipment, orbitals, then onto suits and playstyles. Bringing down squads from 6 to 4 equals less fun for the squad and now unobtainable orbitals. Want to fix protostomping? Remove Officer weapons and Prototype suits and weapons from pubs. Problem = fixed. If I can get a Major Laser Strike with a 2 man squad, then you can easily get one with a 4 man squad. Poor excuse is poor. Changes to Damage mods!
Ashley Swift G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 32	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:44:00 - [52] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate? CCP has already derailed the fun in this game over the course of the last year. Between ruining vehicles, equipment, orbitals, then onto suits and playstyles. Bringing down squads from 6 to 4 equals less fun for the squad and now unobtainable orbitals. Want to fix protostomping? Remove Officer weapons and Prototype suits and weapons from pubs. Problem = fixed. If I can get a Major Laser Strike with a 2 man squad, then you can easily get one with a 4 man squad. Poor excuse is poor. Yea rep tool on armor stacked heavy, such a challenge. Now that you're close I feel like coming undone
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1667	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:59:00 - [53] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: ... and now unobtainable orbitals. This seems a perfectly valid concern. Assuming orbital tables were revised to accommodate a reduced squad size, what other concerns would you have?
Ashley Swift G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 33	Posted - 2015.01.12 21:05:00 - [54] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: ... and now unobtainable orbitals. This seems a perfectly valid concern. Assuming orbital tables were revised to accommodate a reduced squad size, what other concerns would you have? Well the biggest one being NOT HAVING 6 PEOPLE IN A SQUAD. "Oh another corpmate just logged on, we should invite him to squ- but we're already full, dang." That aspect alone is why squads should be kept as is. If anything there should already be larger deploys for things like Factional. Reducing sqaud size to 4 players does not fix any of the original problems you stated. Now that you're close I feel like coming undone
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4170	Posted - 2015.01.12 21:35:00 - [55] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: i do agree with the 16 person squad. it would make organizing and deployment for pc way more easier for everybody. Heck even 8 man squads would make doing PC deployment easier as well as FW syncs. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 743	Posted - 2015.01.12 21:59:00 - [56] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate? CCP has already derailed the fun in this game over the course of the last year. Between ruining vehicles, equipment, orbitals, then onto suits and playstyles. Bringing down squads from 6 to 4 equals less fun for the squad and now unobtainable orbitals. Want to fix protostomping? Remove Officer weapons and Prototype suits and weapons from pubs. Problem = fixed. If I can get a Major Laser Strike with a 2 man squad, then you can easily get one with a 4 man squad. Poor excuse is poor. Yea rep tool on armor stacked heavy, such a challenge. If you know me, you would kmow that I run a STD 'Quafe' Gallente Assault. My buddy is a logi but he doesn't stick to heavies. He distributes equipment, reps for everyone and revives anyone he can. I've been Assault since Replication, he has been a Logi since Precursor. Git gud. Changes to Damage mods!
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4171	Posted - 2015.01.12 22:52:00 - [57] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. This sounds like a simple and elegant solution. I really like it. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 241	Posted - 2015.01.13 02:01:00 - [58] - Quote Make squads 8 and increase team size ! More killing to do on maps rather than having to run around and find something to shoot. Amarrian In Disguise.. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Proto : ADS Pilot, Tanker, Heavy, Scout, Assault
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2015.01.13 03:06:00 - [59] - Quote Just gonna toss this out there..... Do you remember this thing we all hung out in, made squads and a crude plan, then we all got deployed..... Oh yeah! warbarge! Bring it back for like a 30 sec timer. Usually waiting between 13-25 sec anyway. And Id rather have 5 really good battles, than 9 medicore matches. Please Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3516	Posted - 2015.01.13 03:26:00 - [60] - Quote Just want to throw out that I support this in conjunction with the channel disabling while in battle, in order to reduce lag. "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.

Sgt Kirk Fatal Absolution 9200	Posted - 2015.01.13 04:24:00 - [61] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. What about public matches that are divided by security space? 1.0 - 0.5 security space will only allow 4 player squads 0.4 - null security space will allow you to have the standard 6 player squad. Make contracts in low-sec & null sec space give you more payout and salvage to appeal to players that want to play to win and not pub around. This will somewhat help separate the casual player that doesn't care all too much about winning and the Hardcore player that wants to win. However, there will still be K/D padders, especially guys from my alliance. CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
Kaze Eyrou DUST University Ivy League 1714	Posted - 2015.01.13 04:25:00 - [62] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? Not to mention, if we have 4 to a squad again, we can introduce PLATOONS! CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
Kaze Eyrou DUST University Ivy League 1714	Posted - 2015.01.13 04:27:00 - [63] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. Could gray out the public contracts section. It could work. Or it could throw an error saying something along the lines of only solo players or squads can join this mode. CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 74	Posted - 2015.01.13 05:05:00 - [64] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: Ashley Swift wrote: If squads are brought back down to a 4 player maximum then I would yet again be in disbelief that CCP could ruin this game any further. If you suggest ideas like this then you need to stop playing Dust, get off the forums, and deactivate your Twitter. Rattati, don't even consider this. Care to elaborate? CCP has already derailed the fun in this game over the course of the last year. Between ruining vehicles, equipment, orbitals, then onto suits and playstyles. Bringing down squads from 6 to 4 equals less fun for the squad and now unobtainable orbitals. Want to fix protostomping? Remove Officer weapons and Prototype suits and weapons from pubs. Problem = fixed. Warbarges would be reworked to accomadate smaller sqd size. Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Lac Nokomis Palliative 30	Posted - 2015.01.13 06:53:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Logged in to +1 I think I smell a second Elite pack coming...
Lac Nokomis Palliative 30	Posted - 2015.01.13 06:57:00 - [66] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. A lot of us are paying customers who don't like when you (not specifically you) run pubs with your "friends" 24/7. Which happens to include the free 4 hours I have on my weekend off work...
Lac Nokomis Palliative 30	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:05:00 - [67] - Quote [quoteLahut K'mar] Personally, I'm against squad shrinking. Dust is all about teamwork and nerfing teamwork is defecating all over everything. However, I could live with this idea. PS: Squad up. PSS: Git gud.[/quote] Sorry for the triple post but this screams of Pre-Rattati mindeset. Dust should be more about player retention than teamwork when it comes to squad size. Go back to red line sniping you armor-tanking-damage-mod-stacking-Thale's-weilding-Ck.o-b*tch.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 948	Posted - 2015.01.13 07:44:00 - [68] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. What about public matches that are divided by security space? 1.0 - 0.5 security space will only allow 4 player squads 0.4 - null security space will allow you to have the standard 6 player squad. Make contracts in low-sec & null sec space give you more payout and salvage to appeal to players that want to play to win and not pub around. This will somewhat help separate the casual player that doesn't care all too much about winning and the Hardcore player that wants to win. However, there will still be K/D padders, especially guys from my alliance. This is great. Gives it the EVE feel of security levels. Now if you want to put down casual players be sure to put down your hardcore players as well. Casual player don't want to win and hardcore players want to bully the solo noob players because hardcore players cant win a fair game is how you should have worded it. I'm a casual player and I always play to win. I don't do squads, mics, or believe in proto stomping in pubs. That does not mean I do not care about winning. It means I choose to play the game in hard mode running solo in std fits not easy mode in full squad of 6 all in proto. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
LAVALLOIS Nash 426	Posted - 2015.01.13 08:26:00 - [69] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Hell no. I should not have to pick and choose my friends to play with because you dont have any. Just because I dont need 5 other players at my side helping me all the time doesn't mean I dont have friends or that im anti social. I dont like playing in squads. Dont. Like. It. It doesn't align with my player values and goals. It makes me feel better to terminate clones from proto stomp squads than it does to kill milita suits. Ill take a hit to my kdr to make you lose ISK. im that kind of player. Atleast thats how I feel in pubs. FW is a different story as thats not a casual mode and its supposed to be competitive. I have no problem with large proto squads in FW, as thats where I go when Im looking for a good fight. Sgt Kirk wrote: What about public matches that are divided by security space? 1.0 - 0.5 security space will only allow 4 player squads 0.4 - null security space will allow you to have the standard 6 player squad. Make contracts in low-sec & null sec space give you more payout and salvage to appeal to players that want to play to win and not pub around. This will somewhat help separate the casual player that doesn't care all too much about winning and the Hardcore player that wants to win. I think thats a good idea. There needs to be a casual jump in jump out mode so that players can cultivate themselves to the next level. As it is now, alot get frustrated and quit before theyve played the game enough to see where their strong points are and work on them. Sgt Kirk wrote: However, there will still be K/D padders, especially guys from my alliance. Yeah when i was a new player I was probably stomped the most by NS and NC. These guys would play Ambush, corner us, and then call in OBs on the "smart spawn" point. Compared to academy, where most people were messing around, it was quite the level of intensity increase, and nothing i had access to was adequate to respond to that level of force. Ive been though harder FPS games, so I gritted my teeth and stuck around. But im the minority. Squad changes in pub level games are essential for a better NPE.
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4173	Posted - 2015.01.13 12:08:00 - [70] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. What about public matches that are divided by security space? 1.0 - 0.5 security space will only allow 4 player squads 0.4 - null security space will allow you to have the standard 6 player squad. Make contracts in low-sec & null sec space give you more payout and salvage to appeal to players that want to play to win and not pub around. This will somewhat help separate the casual player that doesn't care all too much about winning and the Hardcore player that wants to win. However, there will still be K/D padders, especially guys from my alliance. I worry if you try to sub-divide too much then you end up with pools of players too small for the match maker to really do anything with. Dust currently only has the concurrent player population to run 40 to 100 matches at any given time. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

rpastry Dead Man's Game 250	Posted - 2015.01.13 12:48:00 - [71] - Quote is there some reason for the allergy to odd numbers? why not make squad limit 5 and have 30 man battles? bigger/smaller in multiples of 5. off peak might make sense for 20 min battles on the smaller maps. ive been in battles where its 13 vs 9 for some reason anyway. [Removed ASCII Art - CCP Logibro]
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4174	Posted - 2015.01.13 12:56:00 - [72] - Quote rpastry wrote: is there some reason for the allergy to odd numbers? why not make squad limit 5 and have 30 man battles? bigger/smaller in multiples of 5. off peak might make sense for 20 min battles on the smaller maps. ive been in battles where its 13 vs 9 for some reason anyway. Odd numbers are.... odd though. Not really sure if anyone wants to see a decrease in player total player count per match is the real kicker I think. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1678	Posted - 2015.01.13 13:04:00 - [73] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: I worry if you try to sub-divide too much then you end up with pools of players too small for the match maker to really do anything with. Dust currently only has the concurrent player population to run 40 to 100 matches at any given time. ^ This. A wee 'bit tiresome to play with and against the same mercs, match after match. This (as well as long queue times) can already be observed during off-peak hours. Further partitioning the player base would exacerbate these issues.
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 757	Posted - 2015.01.13 14:43:00 - [74] - Quote Pubs should be 4 man squads while FW and PC should have 6-8 man squads. The stomping of randoms and newberries by 6 man squads on pubs have to stop. It is hurting the game. We need new players to stay not for old players to scare them away. This idea of 4 on pubs and 6-8 on FW hurts no one but the stat padders and pub stompers. You want to roll with your 6 friends? Queue up for a FW battle. You would actually be helping FW queue times and gasp playing with players probably on your same level. Now I know that a lot of 6 man squads leave a match when they see that the other side also has 6 man squads. 4 man squads only on pubs hurts nobody except for the stat padders and stompers that want to feel good about themselves and ganging up on that one redberry trying to make the match worth it. So Rattati, for the game's health do it. Make 4 man squads only for pubs. Changes to Damage mods!
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 187	Posted - 2015.01.13 14:57:00 - [75] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: Pubs should be 4 man squads while FW and PC should have 6-8 man squads. The stomping of randoms and newberries by 6 man squads on pubs have to stop. It is hurting the game. We need new players to stay not for old players to scare them away. This idea of 4 on pubs and 6-8 on FW hurts no one but the stat padders and pub stompers. You want to roll with your 6 friends? Queue up for a FW battle. You would actually be helping FW queue times and gasp playing with players probably on your same level. Now I know that a lot of 6 man squads leave a match when they see that the other side also has 6 man squads. 4 man squads only on pubs hurts nobody except for the stat padders and stompers that want to feel good about themselves and ganging up on that one redberry trying to make the match worth it. So Rattati, for the game's health do it. Make 4 man squads only for pubs. I think you are really quite sideways on this, why no squad? Its not like you receive bonus health for being in a squad of someone with "leadership boosters" in their head. In fact as a solo player I can still get within the top 3 spots on a regular basis if I just go and run my gun, and drop some equipment to help others. That is in PUB play without breaking out a whole bunch of proto gear. Its not about padding stats its about working with the team to accomplish the goal, having larger groupings available would allow for better cooperation especially in pub matches where 1 squad on the other team is holding the map, the thing is that they are their team, its not ganging up, that one redberry is doing the wrong thing and needs to be grouping with others. Moving with the team, not being a lone target but part of the mob running at the enemy so the dps gets split between multiple targets. In fact if I want to stat pad, my sniper rifle and proto scout work fine, as do my BPO logi suit fit with proto rep tool and proto nanite injector. Those too are parts of a team that are needed, just not for every merc. Larger squads would allow more specialization based on need by communication and working together rather than a bunch of solo players run and gunning. How long til this hits PC?
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 757	Posted - 2015.01.13 15:36:00 - [76] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: Pubs should be 4 man squads while FW and PC should have 6-8 man squads. The stomping of randoms and newberries by 6 man squads on pubs have to stop. It is hurting the game. We need new players to stay not for old players to scare them away. This idea of 4 on pubs and 6-8 on FW hurts no one but the stat padders and pub stompers. You want to roll with your 6 friends? Queue up for a FW battle. You would actually be helping FW queue times and gasp playing with players probably on your same level. Now I know that a lot of 6 man squads leave a match when they see that the other side also has 6 man squads. 4 man squads only on pubs hurts nobody except for the stat padders and stompers that want to feel good about themselves and ganging up on that one redberry trying to make the match worth it. So Rattati, for the game's health do it. Make 4 man squads only for pubs. I think you are really quite sideways on this, why no squad? Its not like you receive bonus health for being in a squad of someone with "leadership boosters" in their head. In fact as a solo player I can still get within the top 3 spots on a regular basis if I just go and run my gun, and drop some equipment to help others. That is in PUB play without breaking out a whole bunch of proto gear. Its not about padding stats its about working with the team to accomplish the goal, having larger groupings available would allow for better cooperation especially in pub matches where 1 squad on the other team is holding the map, the thing is that they are their team, its not ganging up, that one redberry is doing the wrong thing and needs to be grouping with others. Moving with the team, not being a lone target but part of the mob running at the enemy so the dps gets split between multiple targets. In fact if I want to stat pad, my sniper rifle and proto scout work fine, as do my BPO logi suit fit with proto rep tool and proto nanite injector. Those too are parts of a team that are needed, just not for every merc. Larger squads would allow more specialization based on need by communication and working together rather than a bunch of solo players run and gunning. Don't get me wrong. I know that teamwork > all But right now in pubs newberries and people just looking for a 1 or 2 hour fun are getting stomped in the face. Now with that said, if a newberry stumbles into FW all alone, well I won't complain there. But in pubs? I will until either PvE is added (lol) or something rightfully is done. I care for this game. Infact this is the only game where I have put over one 1k of play hour play time next to Star Wars Battlefront 2 (PS2) and Pokemon Sapphire. I would hate for this game to slowly die because of these pub stompers wanting to feel like the best. Let's take Starhawk for example. Incredible game with great gameplay, sounds and graphics and map design. It is near its death. And it released back in 2012. Why? Hardcore fans of the original game (Warhawk) hated it because it felt nothing like Warhawk (in this case all the people that hate Dust becausr it wasn't released for the PC) And of course, pub stomping. Starhawk had way worse pubstomping than Dust ever had. In Starhawk you could have 32 plater vattles like Dust has now. But, in Stargawk you could have all 16 of your Clan on one side while the other side only had randoms. This went on for a long while and people eventually quit the game. Because all they wanted was to have some fun but all they got was spawn camping and pubstomping (starting to sound like Dust now eh?) The game now has like 100 or a little bit more players playing daily (I may be exagerating here) The original developer, LightBox Interactive was laod off by Sony because the game kept loosing players by the day rather than gaining. It also does not help that Starhawk never received any sort of advertisement outside of youtube trailers. And I am afraid that the same thing might happen to Dust. Only thing that keeps this game alive is the vision CCP has (or had) for Dust. I assure you that the moment they say that nothing Dust is staying as it is and will receive absolutely nothing, the little remaining players will leave (in other words if FF 2014 happens again, Dust is most likely dead) I care for this game. I want to see more people playing it. And pubstomps prevent for any newberry enjoyment or decision if they want to stick with the game or not. All that said, if they stumble upon FW (which is ground for corps to be duking it out with each other outside of PC) then go ahead and stomp them. But not in pubs. Changes to Damage mods!
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4178	Posted - 2015.01.13 15:45:00 - [77] - Quote I have to agree with some of the sentiments like Buwaro. Letting pubs be for more protected play (smaller squads) and then letting the gloves come off in FW seems to just make sense. If 4 man squads can improve matchmaking for pubs and improve the experience for newberries, so they can become vets that enjoy organized play in FW and PC then all the better. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1450	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:31:00 - [78] - Quote Let's just go back to no squads and we can all q-sync in a PSN chat like the old days.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2015.01.13 16:34:00 - [79] - Quote The argument that "there's no space for corpmates remaining in the squad" can be used all day long. On any squad size. PS. Dust is not going to magically be revived. It's on life support and it might be better to face that situation.
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 764	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:25:00 - [80] - Quote Sure reduce squad size to 4 for normal pubs but i demand that you increase it to 16 for FW. In for a penny, in for a pound. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!

Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:33:00 - [81] - Quote Reducing squad size for certain game modes would cause problems making squads outside of matches. If I made a 6 man squad and tried to enter a pub match what would happen to the other 2 people in squad?
zex ll X Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.01.13 17:50:00 - [82] - Quote Dust User wrote: Let's just go back to no squads and we can all q-sync in a PSN chat like the old days. Q-sync is useless because of mu. Some roles such as uplink logi and hacking scout are not necessary in amb so amb shoud be 4 man squad.
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1451	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:02:00 - [83] - Quote zex ll X wrote: Dust User wrote: Let's just go back to no squads and we can all q-sync in a PSN chat like the old days. Q-sync is useless because of mu. Some roles such as uplink logi and hacking scout are not necessary in amb so amb shoud be 4 man squad. Thanks for the education on this matter.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 795	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:34:00 - [84] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. No one wants a persistent outlet for team deploy more than me. NO ONE! But... If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution. Larger groups deserve access to match variety too, but banishing us to FW takes all of that away. Other things that worry me... 1. War barge strikes become even less frequent with 4-man squads. 2. You can't earn ISK in FW. 3. FW compensation doesn't account for individual match performance. 4. FW stores don't have all of the gear that you need, especially if you are a loyalist. 5. How perfect does the matchmaking have to be before I can deploy into a match? Will my 8-man squad or 16-man platoon be forced to wait around in queue for an equally powerful opponent? And back to domination... What a perfectly-suited match type for two cohesive teams to meet and rip each other apart. Limiting it to 4-man squads is such a waste.
LAVALLOIS Nash 428	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:48:00 - [85] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 795	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:56:00 - [86] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. Well, that was an exceptionally aggro response. LOL
voidfaction Nos Nothi 957	Posted - 2015.01.13 18:58:00 - [87] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. SirManBoy is a vet and does not care about new or casual players. He cares about his corp and his friends. CCP needs to think of new money and player retention and not CPMs like SirManBoy proto stomping corps If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 795	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:18:00 - [88] - Quote voidfaction wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. SirManBoy is a vet and does not care about new or casual players. He cares about his corp and his friends. CCP needs to think of new money and player retention and not CPMs like SirManBoy proto stomping corps Buddy, I care about this game as much as anyone and I recognize the problems that it faces. However, we need careful solutions that do more than just shift heartaches from one portion of the community to another. I'm certain that such a solution can be found here, but at this juncture I'm simply expressing some of the problems I see with an overly simplistic change that bars squads of a certain size from competing in pubs. I realize that it's a popular idea supported by many people in this thread, but it comes with sacrifices that deserve consideration. I don't think I'm being unfair by saying so.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 959	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:22:00 - [89] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: voidfaction wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. SirManBoy is a vet and does not care about new or casual players. He cares about his corp and his friends. CCP needs to think of new money and player retention and not CPMs like SirManBoy proto stomping corps Buddy, I care about this game as much as anyone and I recognize the problems that it faces. However, we need careful solutions that do more than just shift heartaches from one portion of the community to another. I'm certain that such a solution can be found here, but at this juncture I'm simply expressing some of the problems I see with an overly simplistic change that bars squads of a certain size from competing in pubs. I realize that it's a popular idea supported by many people in this thread, but it comes with sacrifices that deserve consideration. I don't think I'm being unfair by saying so. It is unfair because big squads and corps have a place in FW and PC and the rest of us are just ****** over by the big squads and corps in pubs If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1451	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:28:00 - [90] - Quote I'm willing to bet 5,000,000 ISK that everyone in this thread crying the word "unfair" was given a participation trophy in tee-ball.

Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1690	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:43:00 - [91] - Quote @ SirManBoy Casuals, small squads, soloists, newbros, mercs trying to earn Isk. Non-stompers, new and old alike. These too have the right to an enjoyable gameplay experience. Being fed to "party boy" stompsquads match after hopeless match is not enjoyable; it isn't even playable. Stomps should be a rarity; not the norm. We need to fix this, which means fixing matchmaking. The surest path to better Scotty performance would be to reduce squad size to 4. This would give Scotty a higher count of squads to work when matchmaking (theoretically, 50% more), while simultaneously diluting stompsquad potency, such that equitable opposition can be found. Fairer fights would be served far more reliably. Pubstomps would become far less common. I don't think there's any question about this. It would work. Alternatively, we could hold stompsquads in queue until Scotty finds another to pair them against for a glorious, high-stakes battle. This an inferior approach, in my opinion, as there only so many 6-man stompsquads available at any given time. The odds of meeting the same opponent over and over again are high. The odds of extended search times are high. These are only two options I can conceive. What other options do we have?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1691	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:03:00 - [92] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: 1. War barge strikes become even less frequent with 4-man squads. 2. You can't earn ISK in FW. 3. FW compensation doesn't account for individual match performance. 4. FW stores don't have all of the gear that you need, especially if you are a loyalist. 5. How perfect does the matchmaking have to be before I can deploy into a match? Will my 8-man squad or 16-man platoon be forced to wait around in queue for an equally powerful opponent? 1. Easily fixed by adjusting orbital scales. 2/3/4. Play pubs with 3 of your pals instead of five. There's still a good chance you'll win through superior Molon Labe teamwork and tactics. Your odds of facing fodder for opposition will simply be lower. 5. FW team deploy does seem improbable.
LAVALLOIS Nash 429	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:06:00 - [93] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Well, that was an exceptionally aggro response. LOL Are you surprised? You are a CPM, you went out of your way to get into that position because you wanted to contribute to the health of the game. When i see you proposing something that is more beneficial to your corp members than it is to the game at large, of course im going to call you out on it. SirManBoy wrote: I care about this game as much as anyone and I recognize the problems that it faces. However, we need careful solutions that do more than just shift heartaches from one portion of the community to another. I'm certain that such a solution can be found here, but at this juncture I'm simply expressing some of the problems I see with an overly simplistic change that bars squads of a certain size from competing in pubs. I realize that it's a popular idea supported by many people in this thread, but it comes with sacrifices that deserve consideration. I don't think I'm being unfair by saying so. Its the oldest problem in the game. Squad is a force multiplier. 1 veteran player vs 1 new player is already pretty much a done deal. 6 vet players against that 1 new player is completely ridiculous. I understand that you are worried about knee jerk reactions and unintended consequences. I respect those concerns. I just was upset that your biggest concern was "people not able to party together anymore", because its entirely untrue. Im not trying to be angry or rude towards you. This is just something Ive felt strongly about for a long time, and Id hate to see it get derailed and shelved because some people say that stomping new players in pubs is the only viable way to spend time together.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 472	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:47:00 - [94] - Quote Bitter vet. Regularly squads with 6. This shouldn't be allowed. It should be 4 in pubs. 6 would make more sense of it was 24 v 24. We have known this forever. Implement it already. Team deploy should be opened up for FW
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1453	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:53:00 - [95] - Quote I wonder how any of these whiners would have handled a 32 man Clan Deploy back in the MAG days.
Jadd Hatchen KILL-EM-QUICK 754	Posted - 2015.01.13 20:58:00 - [96] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? I propose instead of reducing squad sizes, instead they increase the overall match sizes!!! Make the larger battles as they were always meant to be! But then they can't even fix the lag so no hope of that happening... =P Instead they need to have a way for up to 3 squads to group up together in a "platoon" and have the "platoon" deploy as one group to a match. Then no matchmaking is needed other than matching one full platoon vs another full platoon. There problem fixed!!!
xAckie Ghost. Mob 473	Posted - 2015.01.13 21:10:00 - [97] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? I propose instead of reducing squad sizes, instead they increase the overall match sizes!!! Make the larger battles as they were always meant to be! But then they can't even fix the lag so no hope of that happening... =P Instead they need to have a way for up to 3 squads to group up together in a "platoon" and have the "platoon" deploy as one group to a match. Then no matchmaking is needed other than matching one full platoon vs another full platoon. There problem fixed!!! They can't increase the sizes. That's the problem. It was supposed to be 24 v 24
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 761	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:51:00 - [98] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: voidfaction wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. SirManBoy is a vet and does not care about new or casual players. He cares about his corp and his friends. CCP needs to think of new money and player retention and not CPMs like SirManBoy proto stomping corps Buddy, I care about this game as much as anyone and I recognize the problems that it faces. However, we need careful solutions that do more than just shift heartaches from one portion of the community to another. I'm certain that such a solution can be found here, but at this juncture I'm simply expressing some of the problems I see with an overly simplistic change that bars squads of a certain size from competing in pubs. I realize that it's a popular idea supported by many people in this thread, but it comes with sacrifices that deserve consideration. I don't think I'm being unfair by saying so. The only thing you loose are 2 men in your squad. Big whoop. I'll end my comparison to Starhawk here. Did you thought people that played Starhawk that got constantly stomped by the one sided clan battles didn't complained? Of course they did. On the facebook page and on the forums. We gave ideas such as limitting how many clan members can be in a normal pub match and all that. But of course the same clans that you would see stomping all day used the same excuse that the pubstomping corps use in Dust 514 "Why should I be limitted to play with my friends? It's not fair!" I have seen people like you before thanks to Starhawk. And people like you drove it to the ground because they wanter EZ mode. Don't believe me? Fo buy the multiplayer version only for the game. It costs $20. And see dor yourself how empty it is. Is this what you want for Dust? Simply because in pubs you have to loose 2 men? What about the whole game? People keep living this game. It only has like what 1k-3k players at peek hours? Also on FW you can sell your salvage and still make a pretty penny. Not my fault that you decided to run proto in a gamemode that doesn't pay ISK directly. 4 man squads for pubs 6-8 man squads for FW Hell with it, even team deploy for FW. Changes to Damage mods!
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:52:00 - [99] - Quote xAckie wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? I propose instead of reducing squad sizes, instead they increase the overall match sizes!!! Make the larger battles as they were always meant to be! But then they can't even fix the lag so no hope of that happening... =P Instead they need to have a way for up to 3 squads to group up together in a "platoon" and have the "platoon" deploy as one group to a match. Then no matchmaking is needed other than matching one full platoon vs another full platoon. There problem fixed!!! They can't increase the sizes. That's the problem. It was supposed to be 24 v 24 Yes they can, it would just put increased pressure on the server, we have all seen what happens with equipment spam. That would just make it worse.
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 761	Posted - 2015.01.13 22:53:00 - [100] - Quote Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? I propose instead of reducing squad sizes, instead they increase the overall match sizes!!! Make the larger battles as they were always meant to be! But then they can't even fix the lag so no hope of that happening... =P Instead they need to have a way for up to 3 squads to group up together in a "platoon" and have the "platoon" deploy as one group to a match. Then no matchmaking is needed other than matching one full platoon vs another full platoon. There problem fixed!!! Right now its 16 vs 16 and you can see how the game has framerate drops and lag issues. Especially on certain maps (looking at you Gallente Research Lab) imagine how unplayble the game would be by increasing player size per match. Changes to Damage mods!

Zindorak Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 1632	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:00:00 - [101] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Im liking the increase but i don't really like limiting squad size Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4188	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:08:00 - [102] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Sure reduce squad size to 4 for normal pubs but i demand that you increase it to 16 for FW. In for a penny, in for a pound. As long as we could get at least 8 man squads in FW and still q-sync like we do now I'd be super happy. I do A LOT of FW q-syncing and only having to get two squads at most to team deploy would be a huge bonus. I completely agree that Faction Warfare should be the place that the gloves come off when it comes to matchmaking. Pubs however I think deserve a chance to work better for solo players, newberries, and small groups (which make up MOST of the Dust player base). SirManBoy, if you are so adamant about getting team deploy and CCP sees 4 man squads that combine into bigger groups as a way to reach that end then LET THEM! Shooting down the way to get to team deploy because you are dead set are perpetuating the current situation in pubs where it's stomp or be stomped seems short sighted at best. 6 man squads don't divide well into 16 man teams. 8 man squads would make the situation even worse. No matter how good a matchmaking system is the more pieces you lock in via player created squads the less effective that matchmaking system will be. Let's improve the small group, new player, and solo experience in Pubs while at the same time improving the group play experience in Faction Warfare. Standing in the way of progress and improvement for BOTH Faction Warfare and Public Matches makes no sense. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 76	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:09:00 - [103] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Buwaro Draemon wrote: Pubs should be 4 man squads while FW and PC should have 6-8 man squads. The stomping of randoms and newberries by 6 man squads on pubs have to stop. It is hurting the game. We need new players to stay not for old players to scare them away. This idea of 4 on pubs and 6-8 on FW hurts no one but the stat padders and pub stompers. You want to roll with your 6 friends? Queue up for a FW battle. You would actually be helping FW queue times and gasp playing with players probably on your same level. Now I know that a lot of 6 man squads leave a match when they see that the other side also has 6 man squads. 4 man squads only on pubs hurts nobody except for the stat padders and stompers that want to feel good about themselves and ganging up on that one redberry trying to make the match worth it. So Rattati, for the game's health do it. Make 4 man squads only for pubs. I think you are really quite sideways on this, why no squad? Its not like you receive bonus health for being in a squad of someone with "leadership boosters" in their head. In fact as a solo player I can still get within the top 3 spots on a regular basis if I just go and run my gun, and drop some equipment to help others. That is in PUB play without breaking out a whole bunch of proto gear. Its not about padding stats its about working with the team to accomplish the goal, having larger groupings available would allow for better cooperation especially in pub matches where 1 squad on the other team is holding the map, the thing is that they are their team, its not ganging up, that one redberry is doing the wrong thing and needs to be grouping with others. Moving with the team, not being a lone target but part of the mob running at the enemy so the dps gets split between multiple targets. In fact if I want to stat pad, my sniper rifle and proto scout work fine, as do my BPO logi suit fit with proto rep tool and proto nanite injector. Those too are parts of a team that are needed, just not for every merc. Larger squads would allow more specialization based on need by communication and working together rather than a bunch of solo players run and gunning. Which is what fw\pc is for Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 473	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:14:00 - [104] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: xAckie wrote: Jadd Hatchen wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: It'd help Scotty in more ways than one. * Better matchmaking * Better fights * Better NPE * Fewer stomps * Fewer stompathons * Shorter queue times If drawbacks exist, do they outweigh the benefits? I propose instead of reducing squad sizes, instead they increase the overall match sizes!!! Make the larger battles as they were always meant to be! But then they can't even fix the lag so no hope of that happening... =P Instead they need to have a way for up to 3 squads to group up together in a "platoon" and have the "platoon" deploy as one group to a match. Then no matchmaking is needed other than matching one full platoon vs another full platoon. There problem fixed!!! They can't increase the sizes. That's the problem. It was supposed to be 24 v 24 Yes they can, it would just put increased pressure on the server, we have all seen what happens with equipment spam. That would just make it worse. I agree. They can't meaning it will break their game. Not that it is technically impossible. It was planned to be 24v24.
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3595	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:36:00 - [105] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. It should really be 8. This creates 2 4-man fireteams. Ideally you would structure this to introduce fireteam commands. You give squad commands that appear in green You give fireteam commamds that only appear to the relevant 4 men in blue A team leader A 2IC And 6 squad members Matchmaking simply needs to not put squads against lone wolfers. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2380	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:43:00 - [106] - Quote I'd support squads dropping to 4 or total players being increased to 18v18. Either way, I'd be happier than I am now. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4190	Posted - 2015.01.13 23:46:00 - [107] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: 4. FW stores don't have all of the gear that you need, especially if you are a loyalist. 5. How perfect does the matchmaking have to be before I can deploy into a match? Will my 8-man squad or 16-man platoon be forced to wait around in queue for an equally powerful opponent? And back to domination... What a perfectly-suited match type for two cohesive teams to meet and rip each other apart. Limiting it to 4-man squads is such a waste. I see these as issues specific to Faction Warfare though. Adding ISK payouts to Faction Warfare would largely alleviate the missing gear issue. Combine this with the upcoming player trading system and it seems you have winner. In terms of matchmaking in Faction Warfare it should just go like it has now since we get pseudo team-deploy out of the system. 8 man squads in FW would make successfully team deploying even easier. I think the compromise is that Pubs are more hand-held by matchmaking and then FW by default as it is now is more geared towards team play. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
voidfaction Nos Nothi 973	Posted - 2015.01.14 03:12:00 - [108] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. No one wants a persistent outlet for team deploy more than me. NO ONE! But... If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution. Larger groups deserve access to match variety too, but banishing us to FW takes all of that away. Other things that worry me... 1. War barge strikes become even less frequent with 4-man squads. 2. You can't earn ISK in FW. 3. FW compensation doesn't account for individual match performance. 4. FW stores don't have all of the gear that you need, especially if you are a loyalist. 5. How perfect does the matchmaking have to be before I can deploy into a match? Will my 8-man squad or 16-man platoon be forced to wait around in queue for an equally powerful opponent? And back to domination... What a perfectly-suited match type for two cohesive teams to meet and rip each other apart. Limiting it to 4-man squads is such a waste. If the squads in pubs stay at 6 or is increased to 8 then I would say they need meta lockouts as Rattati has done hinted about. I feel 4 man squads in pubs could be a temporary help to the pub stomping we have now until some kind of meta lockout can be put in place to help prevent pub stomping. This would not be a problem if people did not have the mindset of "Hey lets get a squad of 6 of our best and all run full proto in pubs and just slaughter everyone". You don't see the mindset of "Hey lets get a squad of 6 of our best and all run militia gear to show how we are great even with militia gear". No because they don't want a competitive match they want quick easy isk/SP padding their KdR and to stomp the other team. Now you are here with the mindset of "Hey lets have pub squads of 8 so 8 of our best can all run proto and really slaughter the team of randoms and increase our KdR even more than before". You need to think of the community as a whole not just what favors your corp and friends. But hey its all politics and the biggest crooks and liers are politicians. They always say they are about the people but in reality they are about themselves and what they can do to help themselves. Your corp tag says it all. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Ashley Swift G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 34	Posted - 2015.01.14 06:29:00 - [109] - Quote Yea rep tool on armor stacked heavy, such a challenge.[/quote] If you know me, you would kmow that I run a STD 'Quafe' Gallente Assault. My buddy is a logi but he doesn't stick to heavies. He distributes equipment, reps for everyone and revives anyone he can. I've been Assault since Replication, he has been a Logi since Precursor. Git gud.[/quote] Kid, please, stop making a fool of yourself. Now that you're close I feel like coming undone
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 767	Posted - 2015.01.14 06:34:00 - [110] - Quote Ashley Swift wrote: Yea rep tool on armor stacked heavy, such a challenge. If you know me, you would kmow that I run a STD 'Quafe' Gallente Assault. My buddy is a logi but he doesn't stick to heavies. He distributes equipment, reps for everyone and revives anyone he can. I've been Assault since Replication, he has been a Logi since Precursor. Git gud.[/quote] Kid, please, stop making a fool of yourself.[/quote] I'm not. That's all I run. Apart from Anti-Tank tanks. And I assure you that if you ever find me in the field, you will see that all I run is my Gallente Quafe Assault. Changes to Damage mods!

Kain Spero Internal Error. 4197	Posted - 2015.01.14 07:07:00 - [111] - Quote So.... many... badly formatted quotes..... the pain Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 14734	Posted - 2015.01.14 07:39:00 - [112] - Quote Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 769	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:11:00 - [113] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) YES! If all this goes through, FW will become more interesting for us Vets and Pubs would be fair for newbies and randoms. But some questions arises: 1) Seems like a good idea. Having 8 vs 8 or even 16 vs 16 corp mates battling it out in Domination on FW will become gruesome anf bloody. 2) Can it be like the FW even we had on December? You get 100k per match you played to your bloodline faction or you can make it so if a Gallente bloodline merc fights for the Caldari, he can still earn some ISK per battle but if a Caldari bloodline merc decides to fight for the Caldari they will earn a little bit more ISK for staying loyal? It would make FW a little bit more interesting in my case. 3) I have no problem with this 4) I would love to see this happen. It might stop the mercs from going to Caldari FW to Gallente FW just to get LP gear. 5) YES! Changes to Damage mods!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 546	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:16:00 - [114] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) Very nice I especially like point 4, 5 and 6. Been a Caldari loyalist all my merc life, so I would sign up for a "blood pact" in a heartbeat. If you don't mind, could you also please check the following:? - Is it possible (and easy?) for installations / objectives to have a default owner at start of match? - Is it possible (and easy?) for opposing teams to have different win objectives, rather than clone out / MCC destruction? These two points could open up some interesting game modes, and perhaps transform how we play FW and PC at its core. (Defenders actually defending something)
Sole Fenychs Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 588	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:21:00 - [115] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) Minor thing: Can you do something about how the setting for FW is saved? Currently, if you select, for example, "Gallente" for FW on your main account, it will be the same on all other accounts. You can't make a separate setting for each character. This should really be fixed, considering that FW is all about playing for a single faction.
Pseudogenesis Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1287	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:27:00 - [116] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation gags Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
ACT1ON BASTARD Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 424	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:33:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) Another idea. There can be 3 tiers, for the teams that don't sync and tend to lose. 1st-3rd place receive normal LP payout for their efforts.4th-10th get a bonus, and last 6 get normal losing payout. 0 WP earns 0 LP, AFKers. This way if you are losing there's still a drive to fight instead of backing out. Itd definitely make battles more intense. Proud owner of 4 proto commandos and 3 proto sentinels. All except amarr sent, its a beginner heavy tbh.:p
xAckie Ghost. Mob 473	Posted - 2015.01.14 08:36:00 - [118] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation Many of us don't like this game mode . Please let us untiick this option.
Buwaro Draemon WarRavens Capital Punishment. 769	Posted - 2015.01.14 09:01:00 - [119] - Quote xAckie wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation Many of us don't like this game mode . Please let us untiick this option. Agree. It shouldn't be randomized between Skirmish and Domination like in Academy. Changes to Damage mods!
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 1591	Posted - 2015.01.14 09:07:00 - [120] - Quote I still think reducing pub squad size is a poor excuse for trying to fix perceived matchmaking problems. If you don't want new players to get stomped, fix the system. Lowering squad size will reduce the feeling of community, and will lead to frustration when a group of friends cannot seamlessly transition between game modes. GIMMIE MY PINK LAZOR

Lac Nokomis Palliative 35	Posted - 2015.01.14 09:48:00 - [121] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: I still think reducing pub squad size is a poor excuse for trying to fix perceived matchmaking problems. If you don't want new players to get stomped, fix the system. Lowering squad size will reduce the feeling of community, and will lead to frustration when a group of friends cannot seamlessly transition between game modes. We've had your dust for a bit to long. Sorry mate. Also: do you ever stop and ******* think that maybe the dev team DOESNT have unlimited resources? "Fixing the system" probably isn't possible at the moment. Maybe they don't have the manpower to (re)write that kind of program. And why would they waste time if this turns out to be a viable solution? Which, judging by your reaction, it will.
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4199	Posted - 2015.01.14 10:53:00 - [122] - Quote xAckie wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation Many of us don't like this game mode . Please let us untiick this option. With the way faction warfare is I doubt that this would be possible. Not to mention dividing up the pool of faction warfare players with the currently low population is that game mode would be bad. Domination is not really my favorite game mode, but if reducing squad sizes in pubs means that larger groups need another area to fight domination matches I think adding some into the Faction Warfare rotation would be a fair compromise. My only worry would be a group wanting a Dom match so they queue and then leave battle every time they don't get domination. The same might then happen for those that prefer skirmish. They will queue into a match, see that it is domination and then leave. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 706	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:42:00 - [123] - Quote Great now we have this notion stickied. I cant believe I have to argue why forcing us to play with less friends is bad for Dust. Blaming squad size for dust's current troubles is ludicrous. Hell the strongest point in dust is the squad size and the ability to organize with your friends., these strawman arguments are frankly nonsensical, and will for sure spell the death knell of this game. I happen to tank and fly, so no FW does give me or my friends frankly anything worth playing for, we could care less about Apex suits. * Better matchmaking: What is theevidence for this claim? How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new players who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches? * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people witha 4 man squad * Fewer stomps / stompathons: Again, why is this related to squad size instead of crap matchmaking that pits new players against vets? How can you tell, player side, that stomps are directly related to squad size? sure you can say 'there was 6 FA on the other side but in a match like this 2 Unholy Legion (delboy, pyrex), 1 Nyan Tran (stefan), 1 Death by Disassociation (yours truly), 1 Amarr templar (the Judge) on the same squad and even then we had to sync to get 1 external beings (Ghaz ) 1commando Perkonne (Shely) 1 dust brasil (chopper) But to anyplayer who wasn't in our squad it looks the end screen makes it look like a bunch of random blueberries got together. And thats how it is for 99% of my matches,lots of of buddies run in all differnt corps and channels, and there is no way for anybody to tell exactly how many people were in one squad without cheking the team selection during the match. If you can't reliable know who was in a squad or not at the end of the match, how can you tie squad size in of itself to a stomp? * Shorter queue times Played enough matches solo to know that this simply isnt the case. In fact, i usually have shorter ques time the more people I squad up with, because we have 6 people at a time gearing up for a match and not waiting for one or two slots to be filled. * But you can PC: No i dont want to pay 30 million a clone pack to play once every 24 hours with more than 4 friends * But you can FW: No isk payout for FW, extremely long que times and perhaps not all of my firneds are of the same race or want the same things, or could care less about running skrimish for no pay. I am not willing and out right reject the notion of telling any two of my friends when I log in for matches to pissoff because solo players were complaining about teamwork. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 706	Posted - 2015.01.14 11:50:00 - [124] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. You are asking the wrong question. Your question should be: "why are proto squads matched up against new players" rather than of "how many proto stompers per squad is acceptable vs new players?" Which leads us to: "why is the MU matchmaking system not working?" Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 795	Posted - 2015.01.14 12:03:00 - [125] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW. It might also be worth considering an option in settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players.
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4199	Posted - 2015.01.14 12:29:00 - [126] - Quote Seems reasonable enough. Only issue I see is what UI may be needed to explain what could be a crazy wait time for a battleforce going against another one in public matches. Battleforce leader selects deploy to pubs prompt comes up: "Wait times for Battleforces are extremely long in public contracts. Proceed? x Confirm --- o Cancel" Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
voidfaction Nos Nothi 989	Posted - 2015.01.14 12:37:00 - [127] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW. It might also be worth considering an option in settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players. BIG YES I am all for a 2nd public area for large squads if we have the one for noobs and casual players. This would also give me a place i would not feel dirty running proto and possible getting more into squad play. I know being forced into only FW is not so good for corp or friends as they might support different factions and with bloodpact/loyalist it will split them up even more. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2381	Posted - 2015.01.14 13:10:00 - [128] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW Moreso than anything else in that post, this makes me happy. Thank you good sir for looking into something that I was once told was a stupid idea since "we're all simple mercs, not soldiers" I wish I could like that post a thousand times over. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 188	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:41:00 - [129] - Quote I would like to align with the Blood Raiders, but I believe this is off topic. EDIT: Down with all 4 of the Empires, Pirate til the end of time. How long til this hits PC?
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1721	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:51:00 - [130] - Quote In Response to Tesfa Alem 1. * Better matchmaking: Blaming squad size for dust's current troubles is ludicrous ... What is the evidence for this claim? Squad size has everything to do with today's matchmaking failures. When Scotty fails to find competent opposition for a large squad of vets, we get a pubstomp. Today, pubstomps are as common as good fights. This is evidence of a problem. 2. How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new players who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches? Is it not reasonable to assume that newbros are less to blame for a given pubstomp than the pubstompers doing the stomping? If Team Building is working properly, newbros will find themselves onto either side of a match and effectively cancel each other out. 3. * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become. Not at all BS. When Scotty succeeds in pairing equally competent forces against one another, we get a good fight. When he fails to do so, we get a stomp. There a finite number of squads (and stompsquads) available to Scotty at the time of matchmaking. Increasing that number gives Scotty a larger pool to work with, which in turn increases the probability that he'll serve a good fight. Further, a decrease in squad size translates to a decrease in Max(Mu) potential, which again increases the probability of a good fight. 4. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people with a 4 man squad A single squad carrying its side to victory should be a difficult undertaking but is not cause for concern. A single squad all-but-guaranteeing its side a victory match-after-match represents a serious matchmaking problem. When Scotty does his job well, the odds of winning or losing a given match are near 50:50 and winning has more to do with "teamwork" than "squadwork". 5. How can you tell, player side, that stomps are directly related to squad size? But to any player who wasn't in our squad it looks the end screen makes it look like a bunch of random blueberries got together. And thats how it is for 99% of my matches,lots of of buddies run in all differnt corps and channels, and there is no way for anybody to tell exactly how many people were in one squad without cheking the team selection during the match. If you can't reliable know who was in a squad or not at the end of the match, how can you tie squad size in of itself to a stomp? It isn't difficult to make a mental note of the players who've stomped a match; they tend to be at the top of the leaderboard. Further, the odds of encountering the same players again and again over the course of a couple hours are pretty high. Even a dimwitted player like me can spot a pattern if it's put-in-face a sufficient number of times. 6. * Shorter queue times: Played enough matches solo to know that this simply isnt the case. In fact, i usually have shorter ques time the more people I squad up with, because we have 6 people at a time gearing up for a match and not waiting for one or two slots to be filled. Optimization dictates that we place the biggest pegs first then fill in around them with progressively smaller pegs; this likely explains your observation. Making the biggest pegs smaller is more likely to accelerate process time than extend it.

Lac Nokomis Palliative 36	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:02:00 - [131] - Quote Everyone should note the "And easy"'s in that post. I mean this conversation is great but I keep going back in my mind to a few months ago when I was in the old Amarr123 (Or was it Amarr1? I forget teh numbaz) and we had to jumpstart FW every single froggin day. That still stands today. It can take awhile to get started after downtime. I think the BPO's fell short of a (presumptive on my part) goal of getting more players involved in FW. They come, they stomp, they go back to pubs. (Or take part in contracts to stomp for certain factions blah blah yawn yawn) What peaked my attention was just thinking about the shift that would happen if there was just a simple ISK reward added to FW. I feel like that could multiply the active games at any time by alot, and it wouldn't require any sort of complex systems(totally stupid oblivious comment) Then we could do more towards balance. So yeah... Isk + fulfilled loyalty store = more consistent FW participation THEN onto whatever matchmaking problems we have there? And Tesfa Alem, Nobody is blaming squad size for dust's "current problems". However, like with Darth, I feel like your reaction is solidifying that it might just be an awesome answer.
LAVALLOIS Nash 435	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:03:00 - [132] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people witha 4 man squad The reason it makes for better games is that more focused teams will be able to launch more in modes suffering from under participation, there will be games with more casual level squads, and since we are breaking things down. (2 6 man squads that might have been on one team before get broken down into 3 4man squads or 4 3man squads, which has a better chance of distributing them equally onto both teams. Right now, if the game places 2 good 6 man squads opposed from eachother, and one of them bails at the start of the match, its going to place randoms in the rest of the match, which seals the fate of the match. With blocks of 4, its easier to place. You might have a game where one team takes the lead over the other early, 4 randoms quit on the team getting beat, a good 4 man squad joins, turns the tide a little, and now we got a game again. Also, read his whole post before you comment. He is going to look at things like ISK payouts for FW, AND there is another thread about increased salvage in FW. Plus the potential upcoming simple trading which could add value to all that exclusive LP gear. In short, Faction Warfare is about to become highly profitable. SirManBoy wrote: I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW. It might also be worth considering an option in settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players. I think thats a good idea. It might be a higher queue time though if its unorganized. Maybe they should refine the Squad Finder a little to cater to this. Add in the 3 level of descriptions. Would also be good for corp recruitment. You can have 2 half full battleforces called "recruiting", and then they just fill up with potential recruits, play a game, and if they didnt like it they try a different "recruiting" battleforce.
Dust User KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1457	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:42:00 - [133] - Quote Reducing squad sizes feels like a step backwards. I'm not sure why anyone would want that.
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 27	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:54:00 - [134] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation 2)Is it possible and easy to give some ISK per FW match 3)Is it possible and easy to roll on your own team gear, instead of the enemies for loot (as Gallente I need Gallente Gear) in FW 4)Is it possible to easily (permanently) align with a faction (bloodpact/loyalist) so you get more LP for that Faction, but massively reduced LP/canGÇÖt fight for the other in FW 5)We are thinking about creating Platoons, which is either 2+ 4 man squads that are joined, or simply an 8, 12 and 16 man squad that can only deploy to FW and PC 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) And let the matchmaker check for conditions: If member in Platoon queues for Public Contracts get errormessage(Platoons and Battleforces cannot queue for Public Contracts!) I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW. It might also be worth considering an option in the settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players. I think this will bring bigger groups into battles which is a good thing! How often has a corp had to play the queue sync rodeo. Now we can put a whole team out there to join forces. Also we can practice a PC without a clone pack if we do this in pub fights or FW. I think this may ignite more channel syncs and if squad finder has the battleforce or platoon options available this will add another dimension to how we play. This also will allow us to communicate with the whole group if we role in with a larger group. No one voices in team chat or read team chat. Lack of coordination gets most of us killed. This is one step closer to having a team leader who can manage the whole battle. Heavy with a massive bullet hose called Lola (Burst HMG).
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 905	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:11:00 - [135] - Quote I find a fix to matchmaking - only deploy 4-6 man squads when equal opposition has been found - acceptable. I would never again squad with randoms, but it would be acceptable. A system that allows team-deploy and also fixes pub matches by restricting squad sizes unless team-deploying sounds preferable though.
killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 90	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:33:00 - [136] - Quote Or we could just get 18 man teams, anyone thought of that? When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
killertojo42 KnightKiller's inc. 90	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:38:00 - [137] - Quote Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me When walking on the battlefield i stand alone
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:59:00 - [138] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7857	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:23:00 - [139] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses. Save for the fact that the LP market isn't fully up to stock and not gaining ISK rewards to cover losses from gear that you have no other choice but to spend ISK on. Commando suits, certain weapons and modules, etc. I think it's pretty botch that I have to fight for the Caldari just to get some damage mods to fit on my Gallente Assault suit, which is all about high damage CQC action. Consider as well that even LP items still cost ISK and that ISK has to come from somewhere. The whole system was designed with the intention of a player market coming soon after, which never really happened. It was also to encourage players to play multiple game modes, even though a large portion of the community wants to do what -they- want and not what they're forced to do. Not being given ISK rewards while simultaneously requiring ISK cost on the items you use is a powerful ISK sink, sure, but who are we really trying to make broke? Why are we trying to make them broke? Who gets caught in the crossfire as an unintended target of wanting to go broke? Does it add complexity or depth? Does it add function or restriction? These are questions that have to be answered. I am... La línea roja artillero..! Tears collected from Redline sniping -:- 45
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 552	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:25:00 - [140] - Quote Dust User wrote: Reducing squad sizes feels like a step backwards. I'm not sure why anyone would want that. Duhh, he is investigating the introduction of two bigger "squads" at the cost of slightly reducing one. On top of that, all group sizes would fit evenly in a 16 player team, making it easier to match.

m621 zma 249	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:44:00 - [141] - Quote With regards to Ambush/OMS, reducing squad size to 4 will do little to kerb the protostomping, when 1 team is almost consistently full of newberries/blueberries/just plain bad. Remove squads from Ambush.
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.01.14 18:58:00 - [142] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses. Save for the fact that the LP market isn't fully up to stock and not gaining ISK rewards to cover losses from gear that you have no other choice but to spend ISK on. Commando suits, certain weapons and modules, etc. I think it's pretty botch that I have to fight for the Caldari just to get some damage mods to fit on my Gallente Assault suit, which is all about high damage CQC action. Consider as well that even LP items still cost ISK and that ISK has to come from somewhere. The whole system was designed with the intention of a player market coming soon after, which never really happened. It was also to encourage players to play multiple game modes, even though a large portion of the community wants to do what -they- want and not what they're forced to do. Not being given ISK rewards while simultaneously requiring ISK cost on the items you use is a powerful ISK sink, sure, but who are we really trying to make broke? Why are we trying to make them broke? Who gets caught in the crossfire as an unintended target of wanting to go broke? Does it add complexity or depth? Does it add function or restriction? These are questions that have to be answered. I agree, but I don't think giving isk away in FW is the answer. A player market would allow for FW to be a way to generate isk, whimodss something I would really like. Isk costs for mods are low on the lp store, one pub match would get you enough isk to buy about 20 proto suits if you have the lp. If FW missions were introduced it would help to alleviate the problem.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15054	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:06:00 - [143] - Quote I'm going to go with no on this one. To begin, changing the squad sizes from 6 to 4 will do very little (if anything) to reduce stomping in Public Contracts. Four players (assuming competence) are very capable of stomping PUBs to the same difficulty (or lack thereof) as a squad of 6 players can. --- Then we also have the fact that one of the few strengths this game has over other FPSs is the ability to converse and enjoy the company of others. Being forced to play a PC or FW match just to play with your friends (without being forced to exclude some) will cause many to leave, as the social appeal is gone. While one could say "that group should just play FW or PC", that is a flawed statement for a host of reasons: 1. Not all friends fight for the same faction, which means that the group will either be forced to exclude friends to play FW, group member(s) may be forced to betray their faction, or the group as a whole will not participate in FW. 2. Most squads play about 10 matches before disbanding, so if you don't already have clones (which only PC groups have), you will need to purchase clone packs (50mil ISK each). So if you want to play with your friends for the length of an average play session, you'll need to spend 500mil ISK. Couple that with the logistics of forming teams, and the fact that all of these battles have to be scheduled 24hrs in advance and playing PC is an impossible solution to not being able to play with your friends unless your in a PC group (which the majority of players in support of this idea aren't in). -- Moving on, in a balanced game, all roles are needed equally which means that each squad needs to have 1 of each-role to be proficient. With the current squad sizes, that's possible as we have 5 Infantry Roles (with one slot being open for a Vehicle Pilot). When all roles are needed equally, how does the inability for a squad to use all roles make sense? You could just rely on another squad, but that's impossible in PUBs because the players there are usually terrible and can't be relied on for anything, and in PC (or FW) you can select the team composition and give them orders, making them actually reliable. And while yes, many players have access to more than 1 role, the new players (the people that this change is designed to help) won't, which makes them unable to win a match as they won't be able to utilize all the roles needed to do so. There are much better ways to solve this problem, and I personally believe that my solution is better. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Starfire Revo Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 317	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:07:00 - [144] - Quote Agree with what SirManBoy suggested about allowing larger size groups queue against each other in separate contracts. Full team vs full team is a blast and would benefit from existing in public contracts. CCP Rattati wrote: 6) Is it possible to have, instead of our single squad option, which is causing balance issues where 6 man proto squads farm new players. Create Squad (4) Create Platoon (8) Create Battleforce (16) Going to nitpick and ask these be changed to match existing group names based on numbers. Create Fireteam (4) Create Squad (8) Create Platoon (16) I make videos of EVE and Dust http://www.youtube.com/mrgimbleb I write about EVE and Dust http://mrgimbleb.blogspot.com
Nirwanda Vaughns 1201	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:35:00 - [145] - Quote we coped with 4 members befroe. we'd cope again. personally in PCs i preffer to run 4man sqauds, makes you more versatile Never argue with an idiot. they bring you down to their level and beat you through experience proud C-II bpo owner
RedPencil Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 156	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:46:00 - [146] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation Domination in FW is a bad idea. It doesn't really require strategy because everyone just storm into one point. The stronger team always guarantee win on this mode. Unlike skirmish, you can flip the table if you out smart enemy team. Beware Paper cut M[;..;]M
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2384	Posted - 2015.01.14 21:57:00 - [147] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me Get two more friends and sync two "fireteams"? Also, you seem to have serious entitlement issues. If you'd rather put down the game instead of grabbing two more friends and syncing, I'm not sure the game wouldn't be better off without you? Sorry, just calling it like I see it. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1736	Posted - 2015.01.14 22:06:00 - [148] - Quote Atiim wrote: changing the squad sizes from 6 to 4 will do very little (if anything) to reduce stomping in Public Contracts. Four players (assuming competence) are very capable of stomping PUBs to the same difficulty (or lack thereof) as a squad of 6 players can. Two teams are in warbarge awaiting deployment into battle. 1) If Team A has 16 more veterans than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 2) If Team A has 8 more veterans than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 3) If Team A has 1 more veteran than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 4) As the difference in veteran count between Team A and Team B decreases, do the odds of a stomp increase, decrease or hold constant? Bonus) If Team A is guaranteed X ultimate slayer beasts and Tean B is guaranteed none, does the probability of Team A stomping Team B increase or decrease as X nears zero? (assumes X is positive number between 16 and 1).
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4204	Posted - 2015.01.14 23:20:00 - [149] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses. FW being an ISK sink was a load of crap which is exactly why CCP is looking into adding ISK to FW. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.01.14 23:47:00 - [150] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses. FW being an ISK sink was a load of crap which is exactly why CCP is looking into adding ISK to FW. Then public matched become completely pointless. The only ways isk should be made in FW is through salvage, missions and selling LP items (selling obviously won't work atm and missions could me introduced).

Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15057	Posted - 2015.01.15 00:11:00 - [151] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Two teams are in warbarge awaiting deployment into battle. 1) If Team A has 16 more veterans than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 2) If Team A has 8 more veterans than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 3) If Team A has 1 more veteran than Team B, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? Bonus) As the difference in veteran count approaches zero, does the probability of a one-sided stomp increase, decrease or remain unchanged? 1. 100% Probability 2. 100% Probability 3. 6.25% Probability As for your bonus, the probability of a stomp depends on how many veterans on both sides. For example, If Team B has no veterans, than Team A's probability of stomping will always be 100%. Now some questions for you: 1. If Team A has 6 veterans and Team B has none, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 2. If Team A has 4 veterans and Team B has none, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 3. If Team A has 2 veterans and Team B has none, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 4. If Team A has 6 veterans and Team B has 6, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 5. If Team A has 4 veterans and Team B has 4, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? 6. If Team A has 2 veterans and Team B has 2, what are the odds that Team B will be stomped? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1742	Posted - 2015.01.15 00:37:00 - [152] - Quote 1. Good to moderate odds 2. Less than moderate odds 3. Lesser odds still * Both the probability and severity of stomp decline as the difference in veteran count declines. 4,5,6. Assuming vet squads are equal, outcome depends on the composition and performance of remaining forces.
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4208	Posted - 2015.01.15 02:49:00 - [153] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Kain Spero wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me FW is supposed to be an isk sink. You make money from salvage, and when it is introduced, FW specific missions. I'm not opposed to being able to make isk from FW, I just feel isk shouldn't be given out just to minimise losses. FW being an ISK sink was a load of crap which is exactly why CCP is looking into adding ISK to FW. Then public matched become completely pointless. The only ways isk should be made in FW is through salvage, missions and selling LP items (selling obviously won't work atm and missions could me introduced). Not at all. If you aren't as organized or are playing solo then pubs work. Also, FW has higher risk so increasing the rewards for talking those risk makes sense. Also, ifor SMB's suggestion goes through then those that like domination or ambush will continue to play pubs for those game modes. A game mode that is a pure ISK sink results in exactly what we have today in FW: low population. The ISK doesn't have to be a lot just enough to compensate for the lack of parity between the faction stores. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 14859	Posted - 2015.01.15 03:12:00 - [154] - Quote Atiim wrote: I'm going to go with no on this one. To begin, changing the squad sizes from 6 to 4 will do very little (if anything) to reduce stomping in Public Contracts. Four players (assuming competence) are very capable of stomping PUBs to the same difficulty (or lack thereof) as a squad of 6 players can. --- Then we also have the fact that one of the few strengths this game has over other FPSs is the ability to converse and enjoy the company of others. Being forced to play a PC or FW match just to play with your friends (without being forced to exclude some) will cause many to leave, as the social appeal is gone. While one could say "that group should just play FW or PC", that is a flawed statement for a host of reasons: 1. Not all friends fight for the same faction, which means that the group will either be forced to exclude friends to play FW, group member(s) may be forced to betray their faction, or the group as a whole will not participate in FW. 2. Most squads play about 10 matches before disbanding, so if you don't already have clones (which only PC groups have), you will need to purchase clone packs (50mil ISK each). So if you want to play with your friends for the length of an average play session, you'll need to spend 500mil ISK. Couple that with the logistics of forming teams, and the fact that all of these battles have to be scheduled 24hrs in advance and playing PC is an impossible solution to not being able to play with your friends unless your in a PC group (which the majority of players in support of this idea aren't in). I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. -- Moving on, in a balanced game, all roles are needed equally which means that each squad needs to have 1 of each-role to be proficient. With the current squad sizes, that's possible as we have 5 Infantry Roles (with one slot being open for a Vehicle Pilot). When all roles are needed equally, how does the inability for a squad to use all roles make sense? You could just rely on another squad, but that's impossible in PUBs because the players there are usually terrible and can't be relied on for anything, and in PC (or FW) you can select the team composition and give them orders, making them actually reliable. And while yes, many players have access to more than 1 role, the new players (the people that this change is designed to help) won't, which makes them unable to win a match as they won't be able to utilize all the roles needed to do so. There are much better ways to solve this problem, and I personally believe that my solution is better. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Jaysyn Larrisen OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 1461	Posted - 2015.01.15 03:57:00 - [155] - Quote I honestly wonder what we would need to trim to get more players in match. There are more than a few days that I think 24v24 would really be worth some trade offs. "Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero Skype: jaysyn.larrisen Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
voidfaction Nos Nothi 995	Posted - 2015.01.15 04:02:00 - [156] - Quote You see they don't want meta brackets because they want to stomp pubs. They don't want smaller squads because they want to stomp pubs. Me I would do both meta brackets and smaller squads in pub because I believe in screw the griefers that only want to stomp pubs. Give them their own pub to stomp in so they have no excuse of "but I have 5 friends what am i going to do?" or "Without all 5 roles and a pilot a team of randoms will stomp us". If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
voidfaction Nos Nothi 995	Posted - 2015.01.15 04:20:00 - [157] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Atiim wrote: I'm going to go with no on this one. To begin, changing the squad sizes from 6 to 4 will do very little (if anything) to reduce stomping in Public Contracts. Four players (assuming competence) are very capable of stomping PUBs to the same difficulty (or lack thereof) as a squad of 6 players can. --- Then we also have the fact that one of the few strengths this game has over other FPSs is the ability to converse and enjoy the company of others. Being forced to play a PC or FW match just to play with your friends (without being forced to exclude some) will cause many to leave, as the social appeal is gone. While one could say "that group should just play FW or PC", that is a flawed statement for a host of reasons: 1. Not all friends fight for the same faction, which means that the group will either be forced to exclude friends to play FW, group member(s) may be forced to betray their faction, or the group as a whole will not participate in FW. 2. Most squads play about 10 matches before disbanding, so if you don't already have clones (which only PC groups have), you will need to purchase clone packs (50mil ISK each). So if you want to play with your friends for the length of an average play session, you'll need to spend 500mil ISK. Couple that with the logistics of forming teams, and the fact that all of these battles have to be scheduled 24hrs in advance and playing PC is an impossible solution to not being able to play with your friends unless your in a PC group (which the majority of players in support of this idea aren't in). -- Moving on, in a balanced game, all roles are needed equally which means that each squad needs to have 1 of each-role to be proficient. With the current squad sizes, that's possible as we have 5 Infantry Roles (with one slot being open for a Vehicle Pilot). When all roles are needed equally, how does the inability for a squad to use all roles make sense? You could just rely on another squad, but that's impossible in PUBs because the players there are usually terrible and can't be relied on for anything, and in PC (or FW) you can select the team composition and give them orders, making them actually reliable. And while yes, many players have access to more than 1 role, the new players (the people that this change is designed to help) won't, which makes them unable to win a match as they won't be able to utilize all the roles needed to do so. There are much better ways to solve this problem, and I personally believe that my solution is better. I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. I like how first he says they are VERY CAPABLE of stonping pubs with 4 as with 6 but then goes to say that 6 man squads are required to have every role and a pilot. Which is it do you need squads of 4 to stomp or 6 in pubs? I mean most are randoms and noobs so how organized do you need to be and how proficient of a squad do you need to be. You see they don't want meta brackets because they want to stomp pubs. They don't want smaller squads because they want to stomp pubs. Me I would do both meta brackets and smaller squads in pub because I believe in screw the griefers that only want to stomp pubs. Give them their own pub to stomp in so they have no excuse of "but I have 5 friends what am i going to do?" or "Without all 5 roles and a pilot a team of randoms will stomp us after commenting we can stomp just as well with 4 as we can 6, lol". If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15063	Posted - 2015.01.15 04:33:00 - [158] - Quote voidfaction wrote: [...] You need to get Reading Comprehension to Operation V as soon as possible. If you read the full post you would see that I clearly stated that while the veteran player can stomp with 4 players since they have access to a multitude of roles, the new players would need the squad of 6 to remain capable of handling multiple situations on the field . (ie if they don't have an AVer/Commando and an HAV shows up the new players are screwed as they don't have an Commando in the squad while the veteran players can just swamp to a Commando). So to answer your question directly, the veterans could stomp with 4 while the new players need 6 to compete. Who is this "they" that you're talking about? This isn't the War Room so the only person I represent is myself, and I don't remember claiming to be in opposition of a meta bracket. Though I find your propaganda funny as my proposal would be literally "giving "them" their own PUBs" for both squaded and solo players. CCP Rattati wrote: I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. Well at this point a performance reduction would be bad, but is it possible to implement the idea with the current team sizes? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4209	Posted - 2015.01.15 04:55:00 - [159] - Quote Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. Well at this point a performance reduction would be bad, but is it possible to implement the idea with the current team sizes? Again that's one of the big reasons for the squad size reduction. 6 man squads make it where you are trying to force 3 pegs into 2 holes. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 514	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:14:00 - [160] - Quote This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh.

Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7874	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:15:00 - [161] - Quote I dunno. Why can't we just have 4 squads of 4 people without having to codedly reduce the squad size..? I am... La línea roja artillero..! Tears collected from Redline sniping -:- 45
voidfaction Nos Nothi 995	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:23:00 - [162] - Quote Atiim wrote: voidfaction wrote: [...] You need to get Reading Comprehension to Operation V as soon as possible. If you read the full post you would see that I clearly stated that while the veteran player can stomp with 4 players since they have access to a multitude of roles, the new players would need the squad of 6 to remain capable of handling multiple situations on the field . (ie if they don't have an AVer/Commando and an HAV shows up the new players are screwed as they don't have an Commando in the squad while the veteran players can just swamp to a Commando). So to answer your question directly, the veterans could stomp with 4 while the new players need 6 to compete. Who is this "they" that you're talking about? This isn't the War Room so the only person I represent is myself, and I don't remember claiming to be in opposition of a meta bracket. Though I find your propaganda funny as my proposal would be literally "giving "them" their own PUBs" for both squaded and solo players. CCP Rattati wrote: I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. Well at this point a performance reduction would be bad, but is it possible to implement the idea with the current team sizes? My reading Comprehension is fine. So you saying only noobs should be allowed squads of 6 in pubs? LOL Because simple comprehension = If the noob team needs 6 to compensate vs a squad of 4 then simple math would say a noob team would need a squad of 8 to compensate vs a squad of 6. Yeah, I still comprehend it right. You need a squad of 16 proto stompers on your team vs noobs because your KdR might go down in a fair match. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Soraya Xel Abandoned Privilege Top Men. 5381	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:23:00 - [163] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh. I think he stickied the one that was much closer to what had been proposed and discussed internally. That's why. CPM1 Elect. Thanks for all your support. [email protected] for ideas, thoughts, and feedback.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1745	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:27:00 - [164] - Quote @ Voidfaction There's no reason to put words in Atiim's mouth. Doing so is neither fair nor is it constructive. We'd do well to hear him out so we can better understand his concerns.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 996	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:48:00 - [165] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Voidfaction There's no reason to put words in Atiim's mouth. Doing so is neither fair nor is it constructive. We'd do well to hear him out so we can better understand his concerns and counterpoints. I agree with almost everything that those that want the 6 or even 8 man squads in pubs are saying. I just don't agree with it in only 1 pub area. There needs to be someplace for noobs and casual players to play and not be stomped by the corps and proto players. I know I suck because my age and slower reaction time add on to that physical reasons from injury. So I play only in pubs while only in std gear MOST of the time. I don' t play to prove I am better than anyone I play to have fun. That is why I have spent all the money I have spent on this game is for enjoyment not to prove I am better than anyone. He defends proto stomping I defend the little man that just wants to have fun in a fair game. We are both right and both wrong. Only difference is I voice to add 2nd pub he wants to keep proto stomping the regular pubs. Big difference. My way gives both what they want his way only gives his way. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles. 2497	Posted - 2015.01.15 05:48:00 - [166] - Quote This will be the most amazing thing ever. You could have a 16 man squad composed of 10 pros and 6 scrubs. Train those scrubs all day, and voila....player retention. Faction Warfare could become a training ground for PC. This will greatly increase the mmo aspect of this game. Please do this CCP. Amazing idea. As a closed beta vet this should have been included before the game left beta! "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4209	Posted - 2015.01.15 06:40:00 - [167] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Voidfaction There's no reason to put words in Atiim's mouth. Doing so is neither fair nor is it constructive. We'd do well to hear him out so we can better understand his concerns and counterpoints. I agree with almost everything that those that want the 6 or even 8 man squads in pubs are saying. I just don't agree with it in only 1 pub area. There needs to be someplace for noobs and casual players to play and not be stomped by the corps and proto players. I know I suck because my age and slower reaction time add on to that physical reasons from injury. So I play only in pubs while only in std gear MOST of the time. I don' t play to prove I am better than anyone I play to have fun. That is why I have spent all the money I have spent on this game is for enjoyment not to prove I am better than anyone. He defends proto stomping I defend the little man that just wants to have fun in a fair game. We are both right and both wrong. Only difference is I voice to add 2nd pub he wants to keep proto stomping the regular pubs. Big difference. My way gives both what they want his way only gives his way. The only downside to separate pub queues for solo players and squads is that right now we don't have a lot of players to work with. Only 40 to 100 matches can be supported by the number of players we have online at any given time. This also goes for meta lockout as well. The smaller and smaller you make individual pools the less efficient a matchmaking system ends up being. If steps can be taken that will improve player retention and increase the population of the game over time a lot of possibilities start to open up though. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
LAVALLOIS Nash 440	Posted - 2015.01.15 06:49:00 - [168] - Quote killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me If thats the case, then you and your squad are not playing the game properly. You arent making the right choices with the right gear and its costing you. Im Lv6 in my Faction, i got 60mil ISK and im 50% of the way to my 2nd Gal BPO....and i roll solo 95% of the time. If I can make a New Eden living out of it, so can you. Just look at the system in a good light: When i FW, sure, sometimes i need to raise some ISK. About 5 pub matches covers my losses for about 8-10 FW games. So your 6 man squad, you break into a 4 man and 2 man squad, play 5 games, pick up 2 extra players on the small squad and voila...now you have an 8man team ready for the new FW deploy once the 5 ISK raising matches are complete. You get 8 other people to do like you, and youll have a 16 man team for FW. With a 16 man team, youll lose alot less ISK and will have to play less pubs. Do you see where im going with this? Just about everyone stands to gain.
Ryanjr TUG 10	Posted - 2015.01.15 06:55:00 - [169] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: killertojo42 wrote: Oh and by the way i run a FW squad and we need to do pubs often to keep doing FW, my isk wallet isn't set to unlimited, I'm not screwing friend 5 and 6 on our isk grinds so this would be a deal breaker on the game for me If thats the case, then you and your squad are not playing the game properly. You arent making the right choices with the right gear and its costing you. Im Lv6 in my Faction, i got 60mil ISK and im 50% of the way to my 2nd Gal BPO....and i roll solo 95% of the time. If I can make a New Eden living out of it, so can you. Just look at the system in a good light: When i FW, sure, sometimes i need to raise some ISK. About 5 pub matches covers my losses for about 8-10 FW games. So your 6 man squad, you break into a 4 man and 2 man squad, play 5 games, pick up 2 extra players on the small squad and voila...now you have an 8man team ready for the new FW deploy once the 5 ISK raising matches are complete. You get 8 other people to do like you, and youll have a 16 man team for FW. With a 16 man team, youll lose alot less ISK and will have to play less pubs. Do you see where im going with this? Just about everyone stands to gain. Hello, FW is for squads, q sinc's, and more. Basely it's an PC, but not for your corp..... "minmatar BPO stomping fag" the armrr 2014 room: Knight Killers Pub Like my post for no reason:)
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 515	Posted - 2015.01.15 06:59:00 - [170] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Imp Smash wrote: This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh. I think he stickied the one that was much closer to what had been proposed and discussed internally. That's why. The one that (at the time of stickying) lacks a reason? OP posted a good point before yet forgot to put it into this thread's original post. Or the one which has a title that the Devs are hoping the community will get behind? <.< It's lazy and when discussing such an important issue laziness will not do.

Ryanjr TUG 10	Posted - 2015.01.15 07:05:00 - [171] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Imp Smash wrote: This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh. I think he stickied the one that was much closer to what had been proposed and discussed internally. That's why. Thanks "minmatar BPO stomping fag" the armrr 2014 room: Knight Killers Pub Like my post for no reason:)
voidfaction Nos Nothi 999	Posted - 2015.01.15 07:26:00 - [172] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Voidfaction There's no reason to put words in Atiim's mouth. Doing so is neither fair nor is it constructive. We'd do well to hear him out so we can better understand his concerns and counterpoints. I agree with almost everything that those that want the 6 or even 8 man squads in pubs are saying. I just don't agree with it in only 1 pub area. There needs to be someplace for noobs and casual players to play and not be stomped by the corps and proto players. I know I suck because my age and slower reaction time add on to that physical reasons from injury. So I play only in pubs while only in std gear MOST of the time. I don' t play to prove I am better than anyone I play to have fun. That is why I have spent all the money I have spent on this game is for enjoyment not to prove I am better than anyone. He defends proto stomping I defend the little man that just wants to have fun in a fair game. We are both right and both wrong. Only difference is I voice to add 2nd pub he wants to keep proto stomping the regular pubs. Big difference. My way gives both what they want his way only gives his way. The only downside to separate pub queues for solo players and squads is that right now we don't have a lot of players to work with. Only 40 to 100 matches can be supported by the number of players we have online at any given time. This also goes for meta lockout as well. The smaller and smaller you make individual pools the less efficient a matchmaking system ends up being. If steps can be taken that will improve player retention and increase the population of the game over time a lot of possibilities start to open up though. Player retention is not going to go up if noobs are slaughtered over and over in pubs by proto players Vets and proto stompers make fun and laugh about getting players to quit. They do not care about player retention. If those are the types of people CCP is going to listen to then I am in the wrong game. When is the best time to worry about player retention? After everyone quits or before? Do we keep the players we have until the proto stompers drive more noob and casual players to quit? Or Do something now to try and keep new players and casual players? I need to know the answer to that. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
LAVALLOIS Nash 440	Posted - 2015.01.15 07:35:00 - [173] - Quote Ryanjr TUG wrote: Hello, FW is for squads, q sinc's, and more. Basely it's an PC, but not for your corp..... Im not one of those people that does the same thing everyone else does because the textbook told me to. I dont need a squad to be effective. I know how to use the overhead. I can see the guarded/unguarded objectives, or even the pulses and flashes of enemy equipment. I know where to place my equipment and where to conduct hit and run attacks on the enemies flank and resources. With my Chiron logi, not one guy in a squad has complained after Ive showed up out of nowhere and picked their 90,000ISK suit up off the ground. No one complained when I lit up the Caldari on the scanner. When i place my hives in a combat zone, people run to them. People dont mind the repping either, especially from a guy whos not afraid to lose the suit because the suit is non consumable. Its just, squads are not compatible with my playstyle. Sure, I might be in the middle of the thickest fighting providing some logi services sometimes, but if i see a distant objective getting hacked and Ive got no equipment near it, then i drop whatever im doing and thats my new priority. Or if theres a pesky vehicle i can send running, ill go do that. I dont "hold my position". I "do what I feel has to be done". That can put me at odds with a squad that is focused around the idea of everyone being compliant to the plan. If I have to join 8 and 16 man squads for FW, ill just find one full of people talking nonstop, turn off the voice chat, and then do my usual solo play, and if anyone complains, ill just say I had no idea someone was talking to me through all that chatter.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1781	Posted - 2015.01.15 07:48:00 - [174] - Quote xAckie wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Thanks everyone, I have requested technical evaluation of the following features: 1)Is it possible to seed Domination modes into the FW rotation Many of us don't like this game mode . Please let us untiick this option. Domination with Q sync would be a holy hell cluster ****. It really could go either way on if it would be fun or not.
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4211	Posted - 2015.01.15 08:32:00 - [175] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Player retention is not going to go up if noobs are slaughtered over and over in pubs by proto players Vets and proto stompers make fun and laugh about getting players to quit. They do not care about player retention. If those are the types of people CCP is going to listen to then I am in the wrong game. When is the best time to worry about player retention? After everyone quits or before? Do we keep the players we have until the proto stompers drive more noob and casual players to quit? Or Do something now to try and keep new players and casual players? I need to know the answer to that. That's one of the reasons decreasing squad size and limiting platoon and battleforce access to pubs is a bit of a compromise. It keeps most people in the same pool but it makes that pool more flexible to get the same matchmaking work done. At the same time you make FW and its rewards more appealing to more organized and higher end players that pulls them away from the pub stomps. I think what Rattati has outlined is a pretty good step in the right direction. Is it going to make every single player happy? Probably not, but that's how most things go. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 902	Posted - 2015.01.15 08:56:00 - [176] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: voidfaction wrote: Player retention is not going to go up if noobs are slaughtered over and over in pubs by proto players Vets and proto stompers make fun and laugh about getting players to quit. They do not care about player retention. If those are the types of people CCP is going to listen to then I am in the wrong game. When is the best time to worry about player retention? After everyone quits or before? Do we keep the players we have until the proto stompers drive more noob and casual players to quit? Or Do something now to try and keep new players and casual players? I need to know the answer to that. That's one of the reasons decreasing squad size and limiting platoon and battleforce access to pubs is a bit of a compromise. It keeps most people in the same pool but it makes that pool more flexible to get the same matchmaking work done. At the same time you make FW and its rewards more appealing to more organized and higher end players that pulls them away from the pub stomps. I think what Rattati has outlined is a pretty good step in the right direction. Is it going to make every single player happy? Probably not, but that's how most things go. there's truth in both comments - the pool of players in matchmaking will be reduced with two separate queues so wait times will go up, but we musn't forget the "market" effect - if you're in a squad waiting 5 minutes for a match and realise if you're solo you're getting into battles instantly, it will auto-correct itself as most people switch to solo queue. Having said that, solo players are probably newer to the game, so if wait times start to go up there should be pop-ups and messages goading them to join or form a squad. It's a very difficult problem to solve with a terminally declining player count but I think the solution will be somewhere in between. As an almost exclusively solo player, of course my preference is for solo queues. :)
DarK KNigHT007 Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2015.01.15 11:28:00 - [177] - Quote Atiim wrote: voidfaction wrote: [...] You need to get Reading Comprehension to Operation V as soon as possible. If you read the full post you would see that I clearly stated that while the veteran player can stomp with 4 players since they have access to a multitude of roles, the new players would need the squad of 6 to remain capable of handling multiple situations on the field . (ie if they don't have an AVer/Commando and an HAV shows up the new players are screwed as they don't have an Commando in the squad while the veteran players can just swamp to a Commando). So to answer your question directly, the veterans could stomp with 4 while the new players need 6 to compete. Who is this "they" that you're talking about? This isn't the War Room so the only person I represent is myself, and I don't remember claiming to be in opposition of a meta bracket. Though I find your propaganda funny as my proposal would be literally "giving "them" their own PUBs" for both squaded and solo players. CCP Rattati wrote: I like it, but the 18 man requirement will reduce performance. Well at this point a performance reduction would be bad, but is it possible to implement the idea with the current team sizes? 18 x 18 may cause more laaggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i dont want it
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 556	Posted - 2015.01.15 11:58:00 - [178] - Quote What about the following? Reduce standard squad to 4 and introduce the 8 (Platoon) and 16 (Battleforce) options as per CCP Rattati's investigation. For Pub queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Platoons will be matched against other Platoons (only), and start a 8 vs 8 game. - Battleforce will be matched against other Battleforces (only), and start a 16 vs 16 game. No compensation is made if a Platoon or Battleforce contains less than 8 / 16 players, I.e if only 3 people are in a Platoon they will face 8 opponents if the other Platoon is full. This should be a conscious choice when you form a Platoon of Battleforce, and clearly labeled in the "create" option. Basic logic: If you create an army but only bring 3 people to a fight, you WILL be at a disadvantage. For FW queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Preference will always be given to match Battleforce against Battleforce, but if no match is made 2 Platoons is selected. - Platoons might get matched against Battleforces (as above) or 2 other Platoons. What this gives us is options. No group size will be excluded from any game mode, but there will be consequences if you are not full for Platoons and Battleforces. Organized players will have two more slots available (Platoon), and enjoy similar competition in a smaller battle (8 vs 8). Battleforces will alow "pseudo" corp battles via queue syncing. With the consequences clearly labeled, noobs and solo people will be warned to not form too large groups unless they enjoy being stomped into the ground.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 802	Posted - 2015.01.15 12:48:00 - [179] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: What about the following? For FW queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Preference will always be given to match Battleforce against Battleforce, but if no match is made 2 Platoons is selected. - Platoons might get matched against Battleforces (as above) or 2 other Platoons. You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW. Where there are balance mechanics meant to protect players there is no true meta. I'm okay with protectionist matchmaking principles in pubs because they are meant to be a more casual experience, but if we ever hope to give meaning to FW then we really need the gloves to come off so that it's a harsher experience. There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision. By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1751	Posted - 2015.01.15 13:24:00 - [180] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Imp Smash wrote: This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh. I think he stickied the one that was much closer to what had been proposed and discussed internally. That's why. The one that (at the time of stickying) lacks a reason? OP posted a good point before yet forgot to put it into this thread's original post. Or the one which has a title that the Devs are hoping the community will get behind? <.< It's lazy and when discussing such an important issue laziness will not do. The OP of this thread lists positive effects of reducing squad size. Reasons "why" can be found throughout the body of this thread, your thread, and a handful of other threads wherein the conversation has come up and reasons "why not" have been less than forthcoming and/or developed. The original purpose of this thread was to pose to the community "why not" in an attempt to better understand the resistance to something which would very likely benefit gameplay.

DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 188	Posted - 2015.01.15 14:13:00 - [181] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: In Response to Tesfa Alem 1. * Better matchmaking: Blaming squad size for dust's current troubles is ludicrous ... What is the evidence for this claim? Squad size has everything to do with today's matchmaking failures. When Scotty fails to find competent opposition for a large squad of vets, we get a pubstomp. Today, pubstomps are as common as good fights. This is evidence of a problem. They are more related to player skill / drunkenness / dog chewing on the controller / family agro than anything CCP has a metric for and BTW its not just today. The pubstomps have always been common in First Person Shooters, even COD/BF/Momhasagun games. Heck the first closed beta match I played I got stomped and then stomped by my team mates checking out "friendly fire killing". Vitantur Nothus wrote: 2. How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new players who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches? Is it not reasonable to assume that newbros are less to blame for a given pubstomp than the pubstompers doing the stomping? If Team Building is working properly, newbros will find themselves onto either side of a match and effectively cancel each other out. Most of the people doing the pubstomping are either highly skilled or have good FPS skills or both. You complain about newbros not knowing how to play? Get em in squad, or better yet get in theirs and help them get better. Vitantur Nothus wrote: 3. * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become. Not at all BS. When Scotty succeeds in pairing equally competent forces against one another, we get a good fight. When he fails to do so, we get a stomp. There are a finite number of squads (and stompsquads) available to Scotty at the time of matchmaking. Increasing that number gives Scotty a larger pool to work with, which in turn increases the probability that he'll serve a good fight. Further, a decrease in squad size translates to a decrease in Max(Mu) potential, which again increases the probability of a good fight. Another way of saying this seems to be Git Gud Vitantur Nothus wrote: 4. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people with a 4 man squad A single squad carrying its side to victory should be a difficult undertaking but is not cause for concern. A single squad all-but-guaranteeing its side a victory match-after-match represents a serious matchmaking problem. When Scotty does his job well, the odds of winning or losing a given match are near 50:50 and winning has more to do with "teamwork" than "squadwork". Even scrubs who use teamwork can beat proto jockeys totally true and tested, proven. Vitantur Nothus wrote: 5. How can you tell, player side, that stomps are directly related to squad size? But to any player who wasn't in our squad it looks the end screen makes it look like a bunch of random blueberries got together. And thats how it is for 99% of my matches,lots of of buddies run in all differnt corps and channels, and there is no way for anybody to tell exactly how many people were in one squad without cheking the team selection during the match. If you can't reliable know who was in a squad or not at the end of the match, how can you tie squad size in of itself to a stomp? It isn't difficult to make a mental note of the players who've stomped a match. Further, the odds of encountering the same players again and again over the course of a couple hours are pretty high. Even a dimwitted guy like me can spot a pattern if it's put-in-face a sufficient number of times. Thats right, match finished at a time, everyone hit the quick deploy button again and everyone surprisingly got matched up for the same exact teams again only on a different map/same map. There is "no possible coincidence" here How long til this hits PC?
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 294	Posted - 2015.01.15 14:23:00 - [182] - Quote While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments. I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent bigger groups of players steamrolling new solo players in the STD meta lock out battles. So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 188	Posted - 2015.01.15 14:32:00 - [183] - Quote Indy Strizer wrote: While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments. I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players. So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads. Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match. How long til this hits PC?
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 294	Posted - 2015.01.15 15:02:00 - [184] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Indy Strizer wrote: While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments. I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players. So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads. Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match. Less opportunity for team work? Uhh, that's sorta the point, not everybody can find a team, let alone one that can be relied upon to gang up on those who don't. From what I remember, stomping became much easier once we had 6 man squads and don't you think there were other factors in why there were stomps in closed beta like the huge difference between militia and prototype gear? Or maybe the match making and lack of Mu? Mu, from what I understand, tries to make the teams as even as possible, but part of the problem is that even if you pit 6 man squads against 6 players of equal skill, the squad wins because they're in a blob, they have passive scans, they have a designated logi repping their heavy, they have nanite injectors to preserve their protogear from becoming an expense, they communicate and flank, they can request nanohives... it goes on and on. Sure, it's teamwork, but it's too much to expect from pub matches just like you said so assigning people into random squads isn't preferabble in my mind.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 188	Posted - 2015.01.15 15:15:00 - [185] - Quote Indy Strizer wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Indy Strizer wrote: While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments. I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players. So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads. Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match. Less opportunity for team work? Uhh, that's sorta the point, not everybody can find a team, let alone one that can be relied upon to gang up on those who don't. From what I remember, stomping became much easier once we had 6 man squads and don't you think there were other factors in why there were stomps in closed beta like the huge difference between militia and prototype gear? Or maybe the match making and lack of Mu? Mu, from what I understand, tries to make the teams as even as possible, but part of the problem is that even if you pit 6 man squads against 6 players of equal skill, the squad wins because they're in a blob, they have passive scans, they have a designated logi repping their heavy, they have nanite injectors to preserve their proliferate, they communicate and flank, they can request nanohives... it goes on and on. Sure, it's teamwork, but it's too much to expect from pub matches just like you said so assigning people into random squads isn't preferabble in my mind. Ok so what you want is less teamwork? More Pubstomps, so long as its not you getting stomped. The thing is though, this is a team game not meant to showcase one player for turning the tide of battle, but rather working together wins. For that we have Wolfenstein 3d, a perfectly horid game that you likely can't find anymore unless you have a super special squirrel stash, or COD where it is a team game but even one rifle master on hardcore can kill the entire enemy team if they are good enough. Pubstomps honestly have inspired more people to join corps than any other feature in this game. TLDR join a squad or corp and stop being part of the group being stomped and learn to stomp. My stomp suit usually has a lv1 CR, lv1 sever logi suit, proto rep tool and an adv injector. Cost is less than my PC suit and it works just as good to logi bro and kill all at the same time. Average WP earned in the suit is around 1200-1500 wp. The reason it is a stomp suit is the fact that it allows the heavys to maintain their positions and stay up fighting, and helps the team. Git gud. Git on a Squad. Support the team to stop the stomping. How long til this hits PC?
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 295	Posted - 2015.01.15 16:04:00 - [186] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Ok so what you want is less teamwork? More Pubstomps, so long as its not you getting stomped. No, I want team work, but I don't think there should be disproportionate amounts of skill between teams. I think my idea doesn't kill teamwork because even if you have teams with no squads, there would be teamwork, but not high level team play like the squads who stomp in pubs. In fact, I actually want to preserve it and make it more accessible and effective in the PRO tier of meta lock out battles. DJINN Jecture wrote: The thing is though, this is a team game not meant to showcase one player for turning the tide of battle, but rather working together wins. For that we have Wolfenstein 3d, a perfectly horid game that you likely can't find anymore unless you have a super special squirrel stash, or COD where it is a team game but even one rifle master on hardcore can kill the entire enemy team if they are good enough. Hmmm... Mmmhmm... Mmmmhmmm... DJINN Jecture wrote: My stomp suit usually has a lv1 CR, lv1 sever logi suit, proto rep tool and an adv injector. Cost is less than my PC suit and it works just as good to logi bro and kill all at the same time. Average WP earned in the suit is around 1200-1500 wp. The reason it is a stomp suit is the fact that it allows the heavys to maintain their positions and stay up fighting, and helps the team. I think you're honestly just proving my point. You don't need a protogear to stomp, just a squad of players who are disproportionately skilled in comparison to a squad of randoms could ever hope to be, it equates to stacking yourself against them really. There is FPS skill, sure, but there's also skill in supporting the team. Mu seems to have trouble adjusting for this so we end up with a few players trying to carry entire teams of blue berries against skilled squads. DJINN Jecture wrote: Pubstomps honestly have inspired more people to join corps than any other feature in this game. TLDR join a squad or corp and stop being part of the group being stomped and learn to stomp. If people are to be believed, they've also discouraged more players from playing altogether. In the current climate players are just clinging together to not get stomped themselves, those aren't real corporations. I remember back in the old days corporation recruitment was driven by the hype of PC and new content, the intercorp rivalries, by wanting to make an impact on New Eden, wanting to find your own niche within a corporation, and hearing all those stories of the exploits in corp battles or people legitimately trying to teach the game to others. DJINN Jecture wrote: Git gud. Git on a Squad. Support the team to stop the stomping. Don't tell this to me, tell this to the people who don't have squads of good players to learn from... Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad...
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 189	Posted - 2015.01.15 17:52:00 - [187] - Quote Indy Strizer wrote: ...lots was said... Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad... My point isn't that there is a skill point gap in the squads or players team to team, its more about how they come together, play to their team mates. Assist and complement, not what gear they are using and has little to do with the fact that there are 6 man squads, which on a 6-6-4 team (2 six man squads, 4 randoms) the 4 solo players having the ability to fit in where they find their niche on the battle field supporting the 2 squads or just run and gunning. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the squad size is what it is, the squads allow for greater co-operation among friends and corp mates. It helps more than it hinders. Larger squad sizes would allow half the team to be on a squad, allowing more co-operation not less, reducing the stomping. Ofc this really relies on people squading up to their full potential. I can see your point about proxy chat but that's a cop out. Inviting people to your squad is a start, teaching them a better way is the next step. How long til this hits PC?
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 37	Posted - 2015.01.15 18:23:00 - [188] - Quote Buwaro Draemon wrote: SirManBoy wrote: voidfaction wrote: LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If groups of +4 only have PC and FW to play in, then we have essentially confined larger groups to skirmish type matches, exclusively. BLEH!!! This produces a horrible dilemma for some players--you can either party with a large group of your buddies but play only one match type all of the time, or you can play your favorite non-skirm match type (dom in my case) but do so with just three other mercs. In my opinion, it's a less than ideal solution I dont get your logic. So lets nevermind the new players who dont have core skills or protofits or map knowledge. Lets continue to put them against 6 man stomp squads from your corp because "These are friends partying". So if you arent stomping new players, you arent able to have fun? CCP wants to increase salvage payout...based on one of your ideas. Theres a thread in this section. You think that you could focus on the issue? If the problem with 6 people is needing to make ISK to be friends, then why not focus on FW payouts and leave the new and casual players alone in the one mode they have? Why not push for Dom and Ambush to be added to FW? Why not try to make things better, instead of maintaining a status quo thats hobbled the game? Frankly I find your view on squads beyond selfish. There are many ways people can "hang out" in this game. There are chat channels and voice chats and such. I dont understand the whole mentality of "The only way i can hang out with my dear, lifelong friends is by stomping new players in pubs". The ideas in this thread would let pubs become more relaxed, raise the stakes on FW, and allow a better team deploy in PC, and you're hung up on the fact that people with no competitive drive want to "party" by stomping new players out of the academy. SirManBoy is a vet and does not care about new or casual players. He cares about his corp and his friends. CCP needs to think of new money and player retention and not CPMs like SirManBoy proto stomping corps Buddy, I care about this game as much as anyone and I recognize the problems that it faces. However, we need careful solutions that do more than just shift heartaches from one portion of the community to another. I'm certain that such a solution can be found here, but at this juncture I'm simply expressing some of the problems I see with an overly simplistic change that bars squads of a certain size from competing in pubs. I realize that it's a popular idea supported by many people in this thread, but it comes with sacrifices that deserve consideration. I don't think I'm being unfair by saying so. The only thing you loose are 2 men in your squad. Big whoop. I'll end my comparison to Starhawk here. Did you thought people that played Starhawk that got constantly stomped by the one sided clan battles didn't complained? Of course they did. On the facebook page and on the forums. We gave ideas such as limitting how many clan members can be in a normal pub match and all that. But of course the same clans that you would see stomping all day used the same excuse that the pubstomping corps use in Dust 514 "Why should I be limitted to play with my friends? It's not fair!" I have seen people like you before thanks to Starhawk. And people like you drove it to the ground because they wanter EZ mode. Don't believe me? Fo buy the multiplayer version only for the game. It costs $20. And see dor yourself how empty it is. Is this what you want for Dust? Simply because in pubs you have to loose 2 men? What about the whole game? People keep living this game. It only has like what 1k-3k players at peek hours? Also on FW you can sell your salvage and still make a pretty penny. Not my fault that you decided to run proto in a gamemode that doesn't pay ISK directly. 4 man squads for pubs 6-8 man squads for FW Hell with it, even team deploy for FW. EDIT: excuse my grammar. I am on mobile and it is a pain in the ass to type and trying to correct what I typed because it keeps taking me back to the top of the page for some reason... Yeap, I just to play Starhawk and that was a problem, in one match only remain 2 people and me.... vs 10 dudes hungers for tears "stompers".... and that was my last day in Starhawk... and begin play Dust 514... now If I find in a match a Molon, or Nyan or whatever proto stomper... I do my best with a ADV, Basic or APEX suit, but don`t use a proto gear ( I only use in some FW and PC), because Dust is a Mercenary-Economy game... if I lose more isk that I could win... is a bad bussines. Nyan got Billions of isk, before CCP fix the Clone-ISK generation with the Districts... that's one of the reason of all of the members run Proto in publics, doesn-¦t care the "ilimitated" isk they got....
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 556	Posted - 2015.01.15 18:27:00 - [189] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: What about the following? For FW queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Preference will always be given to match Battleforce against Battleforce, but if no match is made 2 Platoons is selected. - Platoons might get matched against Battleforces (as above) or 2 other Platoons. You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW. My initial draft was actually to match everything with everything in FW, as I also believe it should be more "gloves off". The reason I changed it was my concept of not compensating for partially filled Platoons and Battleforces as described in the pub matches. If mixed with solo/squads, this would lead to imbalanced matches and to give rise to a new form of griefing, when players deliberately rig matches by deploying in a "solo" Platoon ruining everybody else's experience. Of course, the simplest solution to this would be to leave the system as it is today, I.e any empty spaces in the total team (from partially filled Platoons/Battleforces/Squads) gets automatically filled with the best match available. However, this would also mean Platoons and Battleforces mechanics would work differently in Pubs and FW, but that might not be that big problem... I am good either way. But I do think the proposed pub mechanics of not mixing solo / 4-squads with Platoons and Battleforces is the best way to go.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5937	Posted - 2015.01.15 18:47:00 - [190] - Quote The more pegs Scotty has to work with, the better the quality of pub fights will be. Decreasing squad size increases the pool of pegs. Partitioning the peg pool would accomplish the opposite. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley

voidfaction Nos Nothi 1006	Posted - 2015.01.15 18:55:00 - [191] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: What about the following? For FW queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Preference will always be given to match Battleforce against Battleforce, but if no match is made 2 Platoons is selected. - Platoons might get matched against Battleforces (as above) or 2 other Platoons. You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW. Where there are balance mechanics meant to protect players there is no true meta. I'm okay with protectionist matchmaking principles in pubs because they are meant to be a more casual experience, but if we ever hope to give meaning to FW then we really need the gloves to come off so that it's a harsher experience. There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision. By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks. Now you just described how I see things. FW should be the closest thing to PC. If I as a solo player joins FW match I expect it to be super hard mode. To my surprise back a few months ago I started playing FW only to find less Proto stomps but I was playing Gal so for what I hear that alone makes it easy mode. I quit playing FW because I quickly realised I needed pubs to pay for equipment. I thought no wonder wait times are long it is not rewarding enough to keep people playing it. I think FW should be the high risk high reward game mode. It should be where everyone wants to be. I see it as the end game while PC is ultimate end game for the Hardcore player. The last part with FW needing to be meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that. Can you explain that a little for me. You say meta-driven you get my interests. The same as I think it is you that wants "you keep what you kill". I know I can be one of those replies rude. That is how I am I am not good at expressing myself or sugar coating. Most everything I say comes out as a rant or put down even when I don't really mean them to be. I am the type if a girl ask if she looks fat in a pair of paints I tell her no you are just fat. I expect and welcome the same in return. Brutal honesty. Call me illiterate I dont care because I know your right, lol If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 39	Posted - 2015.01.15 19:03:00 - [192] - Quote Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. Null sec-battles... with more that 600,000 Isk reward for people who wanna play with proto... is an option too. +1 Public matchs 4 squad max and meta-lock = newberrys Academy and corporation recluitment. "null sec match" (same as publics, but more isk reward), FW - PC 6, 8 or 12 squad members... for all vets-lone wolfs who have proto or ADV gear. (no meta lock) And we will have many choice to play... :D
xAckie Ghost. Mob 475	Posted - 2015.01.15 21:33:00 - [193] - Quote Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide.
Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2490	Posted - 2015.01.15 21:58:00 - [194] - Quote Give me team deploy for FW/PC, and I'll gladly take a smaller pub squad size. Don't limit the already paltry teamwork system more than it already is. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1008	Posted - 2015.01.15 22:14:00 - [195] - Quote xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide. Its a way to balance vs noobs. sure a vet with high SP has the advantage but they wont have the added advantage of a running full proto. so many say proto dont mean anything then why do so many squad up and run full proto now in pubs? If proto means nothing why are they not all running militia fits now and saving isk? easy answer because running proto is a big advantage and even bigger when those running proto have 4 other roles they can swap to when needed. Do what I did the other day. I bought 50 proto scout fits and run them until they were gone then run 50 adv fits run them until they were gone now back to my std fits. Big difference in KdR and all around big difference in effectiveness. I have 2 proto scouts Cal and Gal (shield tank or armor tank / armor dmg or shield dmg) no points in any other suit. 15 million in dropsuit upgrades (everything maxed except repair tool, nanohives, uplinks, armor repair, shield recharge, shield regulators, and the 3 biotic upgrades. Maxed out weapons except opt > assault rifle, rail rifle, sniper rifle, bolt pistol, and ion pistol. all that in a proto suit is way more to put against noobs. meta lock will nerf me closer to the noob lvl but still give me a good advantage to balance out vs other like me or better than me. Its normal for me in std gear. with meta locks I will know I can make a difference in low meta pubs. I also know if i play FW I should be ready to either get stopmed in std gear or pull out my adv or proto gear i have been saving up for running pubs. I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
xAckie Ghost. Mob 475	Posted - 2015.01.15 23:22:00 - [196] - Quote voidfaction wrote: xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide. Its a way to balance vs noobs. sure a vet with high SP has the advantage but they wont have the added advantage of a running full proto. so many say proto dont mean anything then why do so many squad up and run full proto now in pubs? If proto means nothing why are they not all running milit Stuff,,,,,..,,, or proto gear i have been saving up for running pubs. I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. I don't disagree with your view. But I still don't see how meta lock stops the division of a small player bse further and creates an artificial barrier when one isn't needed if tiercide is introduced. I am not entirely sure why this isn't being proposed rather than meta lock.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1009	Posted - 2015.01.15 23:51:00 - [197] - Quote xAckie wrote: voidfaction wrote: xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide. Its a way to balance vs noobs. sure a vet with high SP has the advantage but they wont have the added advantage of a running full proto. so many say proto dont mean anything then why do so many squad up and run full proto now in pubs? If proto means nothing why are they not all running milit Stuff,,,,,..,,, or proto gear i have been saving up for running pubs. I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. I don't disagree with your view. But I still don't see how meta lock stops the division of a small player bse further and creates an artificial barrier when one isn't needed if tiercide is introduced. I am not entirely sure why this isn't being proposed rather than meta lock. I don't understand tiercide and how it would balance pub matches. small player base is the biggest problem. first we need a player base to do lots of things but cant keep people if they are stomped into quiting. its a catch 22 damned if if do damned if we dont. A tuff call for whoever makes the decisions at this point with such a low player base. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 516	Posted - 2015.01.15 23:52:00 - [198] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Imp Smash wrote: This is what y'all stickied? Seriously? https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=183512 smh. I think he stickied the one that was much closer to what had been proposed and discussed internally. That's why. The one that (at the time of stickying) lacks a reason? OP posted a good point before yet forgot to put it into this thread's original post. Or the one which has a title that the Devs are hoping the community will get behind? <.< It's lazy and when discussing such an important issue laziness will not do. Apologies for coming across as "lazy", Imp Smash; this certainly my intent. The OP of this thread lists some of the positive effects of reducing squad size. Explanation as to "why" can be found throughout the body of this thread, your thread, and a handful of other threads wherein the conversation has come up and reasons "why not" have proven elusive and/or underdeveloped. The original purpose of this thread was to pose to the community "why not?" in an attempt to better understand resistance to a change which would very likely benefit gameplay. The "why not" has been fleshed out a 'bit more, and it seems a compromise may be reached. I (for one) am thrilled at the prospect of seeing a decrease in pubstomps, but I'm equally excited at the thought of participating in a 8+ man squads for "gloves-off" FW battles. You have, in other threads, made good points with solid explanation and argument. Why you would leave them out of the OP here is beyond me. That is my only comment on that. As far as "why / why not" is concerned, I disagree with your assertion that "why not" has been underdeveloped. There are plenty of good reasons for "why" as well as "why not." You know my stance -- just dropping squad size to 4 alone would be detrimental. Raising it in FW/PC to compensate (or better yet, dynamic squad sizing [possibly a mysnomer]) would make it acceptable. Speaking purely in the realm of public contracts -- Ambush going down to 4 could do nothing but help. Dropping squad size in Dom/Skirm would, I think, be problematic.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5944	Posted - 2015.01.16 04:11:00 - [199] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Dropping squad size in Dom/Skirm would, I think, be problematic. I recall running a skirmish match with a small squad of PHI as a newbro recruit back in Chromosome. At start of match, Squad Lead ordered that we switch to Team Chat. Turned out that matchmaking had put us on the same side as an RND squad. I was new at the time and hadn't met many mercs, but by then I'd gathered that RND was home to many strong players. I felt like a fly on the wall as my squadmates began swapping pleasantries with these powerful strangers; it was like they were all old friends. How do these guys know my guys so well? What the hell is "megatron"? Are they hinting at a potential merger? It was fascinating. All of it. In any event, Squad Lead asked one of the RND guys if he wanted to "FC" . I didn't know what that meant, but everyone else apparently did; coms cleared the second he started giving orders. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Kain Spero Internal Error. 4231	Posted - 2015.01.16 09:35:00 - [200] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: What about the following? For FW queue: - Standard squad (4) works as today (matched against other squads and solo players) and starts a 16 vs 16 game. - Preference will always be given to match Battleforce against Battleforce, but if no match is made 2 Platoons is selected. - Platoons might get matched against Battleforces (as above) or 2 other Platoons. You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW. Where there are balance mechanics meant to protect players there is no true meta. I'm okay with protectionist matchmaking principles in pubs because they are meant to be a more casual experience, but if we ever hope to give meaning to FW then we really need the gloves to come off so that it's a harsher experience. There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision. By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks. Couldn't agree more that FW should be much more hands off matchmaking and geared towards larger squad and team play, while pubs can be somewhat protected. If it is going to take time to implement game mode variety for large groups though I don't that should be a reason to not go ahead and implement 4-man squads in pubs and 8 to 16 man squads in FW and PC while that is worked on. Especially if we have corp battles on the roadmap for March. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 711	Posted - 2015.01.16 10:37:00 - [201] - Quote 1. Squad size has everything to do with today's matchmaking failures. When Scotty fails to find competent opposition for a large squad of vets, we get a pubstomp. Today, pubstomps are as common as good fights. This is evidence of a problem. Pubstomps is not about squad size its about SP disparity. Squadsize changes does nothing to adress this, annd make the game less fun. You are also assuming anybody who hasn't played dust for more than a few weeks hasn't firgurd out how to get in a squad, and over looking the benefits of looking after new players in a mixed squad of vets and noobs. 2. How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new playrers who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches? Is it not reasonable to assume that newbros are less to blame for a given pubstomp than the pubstompers doing the stomping? If Team Building is working properly, newbros will find themselves onto either side of a match and effectively cancel each other out. You are avoiding the question, how will my squad of four (or soon to be two squads of 8 ques sync) be pitted aginst other vet instead of noobs. ''but there is only 4 of you in one squad now'' means nothing, i can run solo now and still be surrounded by NPC corps, i can 4 man squad and still have a bunch of blueberries running around. Its just and off the wall claim, that has no foundation in reality. 3. Not at all BS. When Scotty succeeds in pairing equally competent forces against one another, we get a good fight. When he fails to do so, we get a stomp. There are a finite number of squads (and stompsquads) available to Scotty at the time of matchmaking. Increasing that number gives Scotty a larger pool to work with, which in turn increases the probability that he'll serve a good fight. Further, a decrease in squad size translates to a decrease in Max(Mu) potential, which again increases the probability of a good fight. So, pairng groups of 4 noobs against groups of 4 vets will solve 6 noobs against 6 vets this...how? Besides, good fights are about how much of the entire team is willing to fight for the win. 4. A single squad carrying its side to victory should be a difficult undertaking but is not cause for concern. A single squad all-but-guaranteeing its side a victory match-after-match represents a serious matchmaking problem. When Scotty does his job well, the odds of winning or losing a given match are near 50:50 and winning has more to do with "teamwork" than "squadwork". Its a matchmaking problem not a ''you have more friends than me'' problem. 5. It isn't difficult to make a mental note of the players who've stomped a match. Further, the odds of encountering the same players again and again over the course of a couple hours are pretty high. Even a dimwitted guy like me can spot a pattern if it's put-in-face a sufficient number of times. You can make a pattern out of anything, you still have no proof to back it up. You need to show: How do you determine who is squaded with who? How many of each name you see again is in the same squad? How many players per squad? What is the SP level of each player? Otherwise, you are litterally just pulling this entire concept out of thin air. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6474	Posted - 2015.01.16 10:38:00 - [202] - Quote 4 man squads would also justify dropping high end OB WP requirements. The original 2500 WP drop was actually balanced around the 4 man squads In closed beta where a highly efficient squad could drop three but a decent squad might pull one or two. The advent of 6 man squads saw the "steel rain" weather patterns that brought about the nerf to begin with. There are a lot of reasons for baseline 4 man squads. At the most basic level in military forces, four man "fire teams" led by corporals are the baseline unit. The 8-16 man unit is more appropriately called a squad, whereas a 32-36 man unit would be a platoon. I know, don't bring real life into my game, but this doctrinal pattern , with minor variation, hasn't changed a whole lot over the last hundred years because it works. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 711	Posted - 2015.01.16 10:56:00 - [203] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: 4 man squads would also justify dropping high end OB WP requirements. The original 2500 WP drop was actually balanced around the 4 man squads In closed beta where a highly efficient squad could drop three but a decent squad might pull one or two. The advent of 6 man squads saw the "steel rain" weather patterns that brought about the nerf to begin with. There are a lot of reasons for baseline 4 man squads. At the most basic level in military forces, four man "fire teams" led by corporals are the baseline unit. The 8-16 man unit is more appropriately called a squad, whereas a 32-36 man unit would be a platoon. I know, don't bring real life into my game, but this doctrinal pattern , with minor variation, hasn't changed a whole lot over the last hundred years because it works. You see we can talk doctrine till the cows come home. And what do i have against running matches with three other guys if nobody else is on. Squad size is not the be all, end all for matchmaking or having a good fight. Yet for, over the last several years dust has socially grabbed people with groups of large squads. 6 people chewing the fat, talking about what ever crosses thier mind, working to together, trolling each other, as well as bringing lots of different things to the table. Social aspect of dust is the glue that holds it together. All this proposal is saying in my eyes is "Look, i dont like runing with other people, and though i choose not to squad up I find it rough going against people that do. I don't want to use the tools at my disposal to find a squad, i dont want to go through creating a squad, let me make up some stuff about "balance" and see if i can cut other players down to my level" No i don't think i should sacrifice my positive social experience to accomodate another person's playstyle, and outright refusal to make the most of whats available to them. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Ryanjr TUG 11	Posted - 2015.01.16 11:47:00 - [204] - Quote voidfaction wrote: Kain Spero wrote: voidfaction wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Voidfaction There's no reason to put words in Atiim's mouth. Doing so is neither fair nor is it constructive. We'd do well to hear him out so we can better understand his concerns and counterpoints. I agree with almost everything that those that want the 6 or even 8 man squads in pubs are saying. I just don't agree with it in only 1 pub area. There needs to be someplace for noobs and casual players to play and not be stomped by the corps and proto players. I know I suck because my age and slower reaction time add on to that physical reasons from injury. So I play only in pubs while only in std gear MOST of the time. I don' t play to prove I am better than anyone I play to have fun. That is why I have spent all the money I have spent on this game is for enjoyment not to prove I am better than anyone. He defends proto stomping I defend the little man that just wants to have fun in a fair game. We are both right and both wrong. Only difference is I voice to add 2nd pub he wants to keep proto stomping the regular pubs. Big difference. My way gives both what they want his way only gives his way. The only downside to separate pub queues for solo players and squads is that right now we don't have a lot of players to work with. Only 40 to 100 matches can be supported by the number of players we have online at any given time. This also goes for meta lockout as well. The smaller and smaller you make individual pools the less efficient a matchmaking system ends up being. If steps can be taken that will improve player retention and increase the population of the game over time a lot of possibilities start to open up though. Player retention is not going to go up if noobs are slaughtered over and over in pubs by proto players I know [some] Vets and proto stompers make fun and laugh about getting players to quit. They do not care about player retention. If those are the types of people CCP is going to listen to then I am in the wrong game. When is the best time to worry about player retention? After everyone quits or before? Do we keep the players we have until the proto stompers drive more noob and casual players to quit? Or Do something now to try and keep new players and casual players? I need to know the answer to that. Hello, --- I think that's were we should have skill levels like BF4 (Battle Field ). We need a more advanced matching server. Dust has the player base, or a training server like with via corp, new , players, ETC... We need the PVE that would save this game. see more players like PVE. Here look at Destiny it's the fast growing PVE game out there, because of it's PVE. If Dust/ C.C.P would have done PVE before or even now it would have been a big "hit". I know it would there are what 3-4 games that are like destiny for PS3 ? Dust 514 would be come a new game for sure. I was in close beta, and I stopped playing. I did not like the way Dust was going with the game. I came back to it, and notice a lot of the stuff was never added/tacked out of Dust 514. I wish C.C.P would watch what I post. Can I get a like ? "minmatar BPO stomping fag" the armrr 2014 room: Knight Killers Pub Like my post for no reason:)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1765	Posted - 2015.01.16 15:03:00 - [205] - Quote In Response to Tesfa Alem, Part II (Point #1, continued) Tesfa: Pubstomps is not about squad size its about SP disparity. Squadsize changes does nothing to adress this, annd make the game less fun. Vitantur: Pubstomps are about SP disparity and squad size. A squad of six veterans unopposed by other veterans will always stomp a match; a lone veteran will not. Squad size, maximum SP disparity, and stomp probability share a direct relationship. As squad count grows, maximum SP disparity grows; the same pattern is observed when squad count declines. As for making the game less fun ... if one's idea of "fun" is to stomp match after match unopposed, then yes, fun would be in shorter supply; if a good fight against like opposition sounds like "fun" then fun would be in greater supply. Tesfa: You are also assuming anybody who hasn't played dust for more than a few weeks hasn't firgurd out how to get in a squad, and over looking the benefits of looking after new players in a mixed squad of vets and noobs. Vitantur: I have made no assumptions or claims whatsoever on training squads or groups of newbros. My focus remains on the veteran stompsquads who are at the heart of matchmaking failure. Reducing squad size does not eliminate the stompsquad; rather, it expands upon their population. The greater the population of stompsquads, the higher Scotty's odds of pairing them against one another for good, balanced fights. (Point #2, continued) Tesfa: You are avoiding the question, how will my squad of four (or soon to be two squads of 8 ques sync) be pitted aginst other vet instead of noobs. ''but there is only 4 of you in one squad now'' means nothing, i can run solo now and still be surrounded by NPC corps, i can 4 man squad and still have a bunch of blueberries running around. Its just and off the wall claim, that has no foundation in reality. Vitantur: Given a sufficient population of pegs, Scotty and Team Building do a fairly good job of splitting the pegs into even piles. When it can work, Mu seems to be working. This is why we get better fights during peak hours. (Point #3, continued) Tesfa: So, pairng groups of 4 noobs against groups of 4 vets will solve 6 noobs against 6 vets this...how? Besides, good fights are about how much of the entire team is willing to fight for the win. Vitantur: We know that Mu isn't based solely upon squad count, and we know that Team Building attempts to counterbalance against a high-Mu squad of veterans. The odds of successfully counterbalancing against 4 veterans are higher than the odds of successfully counterbalancing against 6. Effort does make for better fights, but so do balanced sides. (Point #4, continued) Tesfa: Its a matchmaking problem not a ''you have more friends than me'' problem. Vitantur: Indeed, we have a matchmaking problem. (Point #5, continued) Tesfa: You can make a pattern out of anything, you still have no proof to back it up. You need to show: How do you determine who is squaded with who? How many of each name you see again is in the same squad? How many players per squad? What is the SP level of each player? Otherwise, you are litterally just pulling this entire concept out of thin air. Vitantur: Why prove what is logged? Here is a better question. Is it easy or difficult to reliably predict the outcome of a match before it begins? In Response to Tesfa Alem, Part I
Dreis Shadowweaver T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 1712	Posted - 2015.01.16 16:54:00 - [206] - Quote I like the sound of 4-man squads; it should make matches more balanced. Creator of the 'Nova Knifers United' channel Caldari blood, Minmatar heart <3 R3KT.
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 40	Posted - 2015.01.16 17:17:00 - [207] - Quote xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide. It-¦s not Tiericide... voidfaction wrote: I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. FAIR GAME. Many Dust-Players think running proto in public match is a "right" because they played since closed or open beta... and got more that 50M SP... As voidfaction said... If you run a "basic" fit and basic weapon, you will have more bonuses that a noob player, and STILL ADVANTAGE... But if you play with a Proto weapon and kill with 2-3 shots a militia player... you are not a "PRO", only a overpowered player vs. a casual - noob player. The Meta-Lock is an option for CCP. Even in games like COD, Destiny, Battlefield... you still have a little "advantage" if you max the skills, anyone can beat you.
LAVALLOIS Nash 447	Posted - 2015.01.16 18:24:00 - [208] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision. By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks. i dont disagree with the principle of it, but ill disagree with the effectiveness of its application. Lets just say, for the sake of simplicity, that in order to protect FW and make it more intense, people who join it solo are "auto squadded" into any available 8 or 16 man deployment teams. To make for a more coherent, concentrated force youd expect from an empire. Yes, everyone will be in a squad, and will be building WP for orbitals, and might benefit from some passive/vehicle scans. But beyond that, the person auto squadded has to want to participate in order for the plan to work. Someone like me, theres all kinds of compatibility issues. I like radio silence because it lets me hear things like footsteps or hidden equipment. I prefer to operate behind enemy lines, so the less people are with me, the better chance I have of evading detection. Im a force splitter; I make enemy squads choose "Do we stay here and keep fighting for A, or we divert some manpower for that solo guy keeps hacking the outlying objectives"? Also, I have a big problem with being told what to do. i think that influences my squad decision the most. When I think something has to be done, im not down to request permission or get a reprimand. Im down to go do it now. So I mean, in the end, no matter what changes are made, its not going to be enough to make me abandon the way I play. This is what I know how to do, its what im good at. In FW I got my Chiron BPO. I dont care about KDR. When im in a Gal FW, and I see on the overhead that a group on my team is fighting to hold down an objective (i combine the overhead readings with what Im see on the obituaries), I show up with my logi and give them some relief. By the time that group has almost won their fight for the objective, im already on the way to C, because i saw an enemy hack notification and noticed the CRU near C is now offline. Also, for the record, just because of the way i play does not mean im "anti social". if while were waiting on the warbarge people want to talk on their comms about what they plan to do, ill listen. I used to join the Lucent Echelon channel all the time. Its just in game, I need to play my way, and I need my map noise as a critical input. That gunfire in the distance might be background noise to some, but thats critical info for me. TL;DR: Im not against auto squadding for FW. Ill still play FW with auto squadding. Ill still be doing my own thing with radio silence.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 475	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:18:00 - [209] - Quote Aidualc wrote: xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust. I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses. Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide. It-¦s not Tiericide.... I know. We are moving away from OP. sorry OP CCP has mooted metalock as a possibility to help balance pub games. Tiercide would improve the power creep situation and not stop those players not interested in FW or PC from using their gear as well as further cannibalise a small playerbase into more sub-sections.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 475	Posted - 2015.01.16 19:22:00 - [210] - Quote Aidualc wrote: voidfaction wrote: I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. FAIR GAME. Many Dust-Players think running proto in public match is a "right" because they played since closed or open beta... and got more that 50M SP... As voidfaction said... If you run a "basic" fit and basic weapon, you will have more bonuses that a noob player, and STILL ADVANTAGE... But if you play with a Proto weapon and kill with 2-3 shots a militia player... you are not a "PRO", only a overpowered player vs. a casual - noob player.. With this view you are removing the point of an RPG: investing time into creating/ building a character - this is supposed to be a key difference to other FPS' What is the point of unlocking stuff in this game if not to use it.

Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP Dark Taboo 40	Posted - 2015.01.16 20:40:00 - [211] - Quote xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: voidfaction wrote: I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. FAIR GAME. Many Dust-Players think running proto in public match is a "right" because they played since closed or open beta... and got more that 50M SP... As voidfaction said... If you run a "basic" fit and basic weapon, you will have more bonuses that a noob player, and STILL ADVANTAGE... But if you play with a Proto weapon and kill with 2-3 shots a militia player... you are not a "PRO", only a overpowered player vs. a casual - noob player.. With this view you are removing the point of an RPG: investing time into creating/ building a character - this is supposed to be a key difference to other FPS' What is the point of unlocking stuff in this game if not to use it. You will use your proto gear in a PC or FW... or maybe in another "hard mode" game... If you reach LVL5 weapon and LVL5 profency... your "basic weapon" hit more that a "basic no profency" weapon, that's the RPG investing time. In Destiny you can play with your full equipment in the Crusible and any player with a "standar" or non level weapon has the same HP as you... but in the Iron Banner Weapon... all of your equipment got advantage vs standar equipment
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1768	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:07:00 - [212] - Quote xAckie wrote: ... you are removing the point of an RPG: investing time into creating/ building a character - this is supposed to be a key difference to other FPS' ^ Exactly this. Homogenizing the playerbase would make matchmaking easier, but to what end? It would detract from what makes Dust unique and devalue player investment. There'd be no satisfaction in the grind if you ended it largely as you began, or were forbidden to use whatever you picked up along the way. We can achieve the goal of fairer fights without making everyone more alike.
xAckie Ghost. Mob 475	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:33:00 - [213] - Quote Aidualc wrote: xAckie wrote: Aidualc wrote: voidfaction wrote: I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game. FAIR GAME. Many Dust-Players think running proto in public match is a "right" because they played since closed or open beta... and got more that 50M SP... As voidfaction said... If you run a "basic" fit and basic weapon, you will have more bonuses that a noob player, and STILL ADVANTAGE... But if you play with a Proto weapon and kill with 2-3 shots a militia player... you are not a "PRO", only a overpowered player vs. a casual - noob player.. With this view you are removing the point of an RPG: investing time into creating/ building a character - this is supposed to be a key difference to other FPS' What is the point of unlocking stuff in this game if not to use it. You will use your proto gear in a PC or FW... or maybe in another "hard mode" game... The majority of the player base don't and won't play these game modes. Why should the majority be restricted from using their hard earned gear?
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6501	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:33:00 - [214] - Quote while I agree to an extent with some of the objections: This game has no New Player Forgiveness factor. At all. You dive in, yer screwed. How many people are going to find it fun being a newbie stacked and packed in with guys like me and half the rest of you? They don't learn the ropes, they don't learn the tactics and bluntly when a six man nyain san squad rolls in like the wicked witch of the west on her broomstick, they don't have fun either. A lot of you spergs forget: Most people refuse to play a game that isn't fun. This isn't EVE where that one in ten engineer/CIA spook/Economist/naval officer is going to pop in, see the immersive NUMBERS and go GASP!!! "My PEOPLE! I have come home!!!" This is an FPS. If you cannot compete, you cannot get kills and you cannot get a feeling of advancement, you are going to quit. Unless you are an idiotic masochist, just like everyone here on this forum who's been here for longer than a month. Quit crying that it's ruining your playstyle. Your playstyle is CRUSHING new players' ability to define THEIR playstyle. Yes it happened to you. No it's not fair. But without new blood, this game stagnates and ceases being fun. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 3551	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:36:00 - [215] - Quote Realized one problem: If you have more than 3 friends and want to play a dom. Bush, I feel, should be kept as a pub match only thing, and should have low squad numbers anyways, just because of the way it works (one team pushes, the other team ends up smart deploying in a circle of full proto shooting them to see who can get the kill until the match ends). "Minja" and "Masochist" are synonyms. FA's Shotgunning T-Dome Champ I piss Remote Explosives and shit Shotgun shells.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1016	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:07:00 - [216] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Realized one problem: If you have more than 3 friends and want to play a dom. Bush, I feel, should be kept as a pub match only thing, and should have low squad numbers anyways, just because of the way it works (one team pushes, the other team ends up smart deploying in a circle of full proto shooting them to see who can get the kill until the match ends). ]I have no friends Will you be my friend even though I don't have/use a mic? I run scans full time if that helps. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Hector Carson G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 151	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:35:00 - [217] - Quote pumping up wrote: Stomper will just qsync. Though Team size 16 is evenly dividable by 4. Scanning results are team wide now anyways why not just Squad 5 and Team 15 that way you can still keep a good number in a squad and have 3 Squads in a battle Assault c.k0 Proto Tankers
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:28:00 - [218] - Quote Hector Carson wrote: pumping up wrote: Stomper will just qsync. Though Team size 16 is evenly dividable by 4. Scanning results are team wide now anyways why not just Squad 5 and Team 15 that way you can still keep a good number in a squad and have 3 Squads in a battle ^uuuuuhhhhhhh ? Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 259	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:50:00 - [219] - Quote I can't believe you actually stickied this post smh... If you actually go through with it CCP fix your matchmaking please it's falling apart in pubs Amarrian In Disguise.. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Proto : ADS Pilot, Tanker, Heavy, Scout, Assault
Indy Strizer Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 296	Posted - 2015.01.17 03:44:00 - [220] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Indy Strizer wrote: ...lots was said... Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad... My point isn't that there is a skill point gap in the squads or players team to team, its more about how they come together, play to their team mates. Assist and complement, not what gear they are using and has little to do with the fact that there are 6 man squads, which on a 6-6-4 team (2 six man squads, 4 randoms) the 4 solo players having the ability to fit in where they find their niche on the battle field supporting the 2 squads or just run and gunning. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the squad size is what it is, the squads allow for greater co-operation among friends and corp mates. It helps more than it hinders. Larger squad sizes would allow half the team to be on a squad, allowing more co-operation not less, reducing the stomping. Ofc this really relies on people squading up to their full potential. I can see your point about proxy chat but that's a cop out. Inviting people to your squad is a start, teaching them a better way is the next step. Sorry about not responding, I thought I did. Just so you know, your point is pretty much my point. The skill point gap wasn't what I was talking about when I said "skill". I literally mean that a pub stomping squad can collectively be disproportionately skilled in the game of Dust compared to any random 6 average players and it only gets worse when you throw in protogear, skill point disparity, and the general advantages of being squadded up. Sure, it's team work. Sure, they can squad up. ...but, can they squad up with good players to pub stomp all day? Nope. It's unbalanced. I think we should simply make STD metalevel battles low risk, low reward battles with a back to basics feel. If people want to get corpmates together, then things should escalate, they should go into riskier higher metalevel battles, FW, or PC. Also how the hell is mentioning the reality of the many inconvenient communication barriers between us and new players a cop out? Did you really just tell me that players should invite new players to their squad to teach them? Isn't expecting players to help reduce pub stomping by becoming their personal tutors an unrealistic solution?

DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 189	Posted - 2015.01.17 05:02:00 - [221] - Quote Indy Strizer wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Indy Strizer wrote: ...lots was said... Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad... My point isn't that there is a skill point gap in the squads or players team to team, its more about how they come together, play to their team mates. Assist and complement, not what gear they are using and has little to do with the fact that there are 6 man squads, which on a 6-6-4 team (2 six man squads, 4 randoms) the 4 solo players having the ability to fit in where they find their niche on the battle field supporting the 2 squads or just run and gunning. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the squad size is what it is, the squads allow for greater co-operation among friends and corp mates. It helps more than it hinders. Larger squad sizes would allow half the team to be on a squad, allowing more co-operation not less, reducing the stomping. Ofc this really relies on people squading up to their full potential. I can see your point about proxy chat but that's a cop out. Inviting people to your squad is a start, teaching them a better way is the next step. Sorry about not responding, I thought I did. Just so you know, your point is pretty much my point. The skill point gap wasn't what I was talking about when I said "skill". I literally mean that a pub stomping squad can collectively be disproportionately skilled in the game of Dust compared to any random 6 average players and it only gets worse when you throw in protogear, skill point disparity, and the general advantages of being squadded up. Sure, it's team work. Sure, they can squad up. ...but, can they squad up with good players to pub stomp all day? Nope. It's unbalanced. I think we should simply make STD metalevel battles low risk, low reward battles with a back to basics feel. If people want to get corpmates together, then things should escalate, they should go into riskier higher metalevel battles, FW, or PC. Also how the hell is mentioning the reality of the many inconvenient communication barriers between us and new players a cop out? Did you really just tell me that players should invite new players to their squad to teach them? Isn't expecting players to help reduce pub stomping by becoming their personal tutors an unrealistic solution? Well the argument about meta gear is problematic, for instance the suit i mentioned earlier has a mix of meta 1 thru proto in it so really it isn't a top meta suit but effective more in the combination of mods and playstyle. In fact it is a meta 1 suit (still logi but 1st level) so really what would be better is for everyone to go through the same frustrating process of actually learning the game a bit before being a super awesome merc rather than being able to go against the same class player suits as everyone in the match. War isn't fair the fact that you expect a video game to be fair when it is about war is surprising. Still as for pub stomps, and getting rid of them maybe a solo mode would be good. Then co-operation would be limited or still somewhat cohesive but generally less so. This contradicts everything this game has good in it atm though so I am not really sure it is a good idea. How long til this hits PC?
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 36	Posted - 2015.01.17 06:16:00 - [222] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. it would not really make a difference. Why don't you guys work on team matchmaking first. if there are 3 squads of 4 that are full proto vs my 1 squad of vets & 3 squads of noobs, my game is 4 v 12 instead of 6 v 12. keep it at 6 or increase it to 8. 32 in a game is fine for now 32 v 32 would be nice to with 4 squads of 8 on either side is what I would like to see but I say fix match making first before you try to "fine tune" the amount of people and create more bugs before testing it in the first place The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 344	Posted - 2015.01.17 06:30:00 - [223] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. How about no pre-mades for pubs and no comms to even out the odds for solo, casuals and new players. Then bring back corp battles for friends to que with. Then 8 or more in squads for FW so the team kill meta makes a bit more sense due to better control of who you play with. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6539	Posted - 2015.01.17 10:43:00 - [224] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. How about no pre-mades for pubs and no comms to even out the odds for solo, casuals and new players. Then bring back corp battles for friends to que with. Then 8 or more in squads for FW so the team kill meta makes a bit more sense due to better control of who you play with. Because no. That's why. Punishing peoplefor having the audacity of making online friendships is dumbass. Making modes that reward team play better than pubstomping will solve most of the issue. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
A-P-P-Baby KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 236	Posted - 2015.01.17 15:46:00 - [225] - Quote Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. This. Please don't take steps backwards. The social aspect of this game is what keeps most vets here. You should be adding to the social elements, not taking away friendly opportunities. They call me "Mr. Vacation"... I used to be relevant, but I learned to delegate so I could island hop
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6550	Posted - 2015.01.17 15:53:00 - [226] - Quote A-P-P-Baby wrote: Darth-Carbonite GIO wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. PLEASE don't reduce squad size. Rather, increase FW squad size to eight, and keep public squads at six. I for one do not fancy the idea of going back to the old days of small squads, as I believe that playing with your friends is a key component to an engaging multiplayer experience. Why take that away? That was one (of many) things that turned me off of Destiny. I couldn't play with the people I enjoyed hanging out with, and therefore became frustrated and ultimately quit. My fondest memories of Dust will always be of the times where six, twelve, or even sixteen of my companions all joined together to enjoy the game we love. This. Please don't take steps backwards. The social aspect of this game is what keeps most vets here. You should be adding to the social elements, not taking away friendly opportunities. I believe the intent is 4 man for pubs, 6/8/16 man for FW and PC. Not an unreasonable breakdown, unless your objective is pubstomping. but the 6 man squad in pubs is by and large an insurmountable challenge for most players in a pub match. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 178	Posted - 2015.01.17 19:52:00 - [227] - Quote what about a squad bonus that only applies when you are 2-5 strong? 2% scan radius and precision or something not broken If there's no good alternative I support 4 man squads (makes sense with a 16 man team..) "Tossin uplinks and runnin fer my life" ~ Gunny blownapart "Lets group up and push an objective" ~ No blueberry ever
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 189	Posted - 2015.01.17 23:08:00 - [228] - Quote So I have now done some research and have found that a completely random grouping of people in Pubs in a squad does work even without mic support, just using basic squad commands (squad leader knows what he/she is doing with the almighty wheel) and by playing as a team of people. To do this I made a "Public" squad and waited for it to fill up with people. As time went on we went from Dominating the matches (domination mode) to outright cloning out the other team over the course of 3 hrs. The squad started as 2 members and grew with each match and was successful. We had squad members from more than one random corp and it was amazing how well everyone who just wanted to play as a team could work together both without comms and without any instructions other than normal squad commands. We did not proto stomp, we rolled over all the solo players on the other teams. Like a wave of terror they ran fleeing to the hills and tried to snipe us but still we came on strong and persevered. It was like a death squad in some horror film, not even the tanks that they threw at us could stand up to our fury. Keep in mind this was a completely random group of mercs who all joined a squad and deployed with some simple planning before hand. Punch for ammo, stay together to stay alive, follow squad orders for movement. This is not hard to do guys and really funny how well it worked. Thank you to all who participated in the application of bullets with me this afternoon. It was a true pleasure I will be running these Public Access Squads on a regular basis, if you want to be part of the "education process" join me in schooling the solos, one match at a time. How long til this hits PC?
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1018	Posted - 2015.01.17 23:32:00 - [229] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: So I have now done some research and have found that a completely random grouping of people in Pubs in a squad does work even without mic support, just using basic squad commands (squad leader knows what he/she is doing with the almighty wheel) and by playing as a team of people. To do this I made a "Public" squad and waited for it to fill up with people. As time went on we went from Dominating the matches (domination mode) to outright cloning out the other team over the course of 3 hrs. The squad started as 2 members and grew with each match and was successful. We had squad members from more than one random corp and it was amazing how well everyone who just wanted to play as a team could work together both without comms and without any instructions other than normal squad commands. We did not proto stomp, we rolled over all the solo players on the other teams. Like a wave of terror they ran fleeing to the hills and tried to snipe us but still we came on strong and persevered. It was like a death squad in some horror film, not even the tanks that they threw at us could stand up to our fury. Keep in mind this was a completely random group of mercs who all joined a squad and deployed with some simple planning before hand. Punch for ammo, stay together to stay alive, follow squad orders for movement. This is not hard to do guys and really funny how well it worked. Thank you to all who participated in the application of bullets with me this afternoon. It was a true pleasure I will be running these Public Access Squads on a regular basis, if you want to be part of the "education process" join me in schooling the solos, one match at a time. Can that work with a flanking scout in the squad? I could handle being in a squad like that but as a scout I don't play front line. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 190	Posted - 2015.01.17 23:37:00 - [230] - Quote voidfaction wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: So I have now done some research and have found that a completely random grouping of people in Pubs in a squad does work even without mic support, just using basic squad commands (squad leader knows what he/she is doing with the almighty wheel) and by playing as a team of people. To do this I made a "Public" squad and waited for it to fill up with people. As time went on we went from Dominating the matches (domination mode) to outright cloning out the other team over the course of 3 hrs. The squad started as 2 members and grew with each match and was successful. We had squad members from more than one random corp and it was amazing how well everyone who just wanted to play as a team could work together both without comms and without any instructions other than normal squad commands. We did not proto stomp, we rolled over all the solo players on the other teams. Like a wave of terror they ran fleeing to the hills and tried to snipe us but still we came on strong and persevered. It was like a death squad in some horror film, not even the tanks that they threw at us could stand up to our fury. Keep in mind this was a completely random group of mercs who all joined a squad and deployed with some simple planning before hand. Punch for ammo, stay together to stay alive, follow squad orders for movement. This is not hard to do guys and really funny how well it worked. Thank you to all who participated in the application of bullets with me this afternoon. It was a true pleasure I will be running these Public Access Squads on a regular basis, if you want to be part of the "education process" join me in schooling the solos, one match at a time. Can that work with a flanking scout in the squad? I could handle being in a squad like that but as a scout I don't play front line. Absolutely, this works with many varied formats of squads from Heavy with Logi support to Assault, Scout flanking/hacking Heavy Logi center and back as well as with vehicles. As a scout when I flank I like to stay close enough to the squad to help hit the guys hitting my guys, basically close enough to get help. Part of the process is watching the tac map and checking who your members are engaging so that you can be close and providing cover fire or receiving cover fire as you get the objective. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 528	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:15:00 - [231] - Quote Ratta mentioned that the CPM is vocally split on the topic. And as we have seen in the forums the playerbase is split on the topic. So I think we should consider the background of the players on each side of this debate. Specifically -- past experience with it. Of the players who want smaller squad sizes in Ambush, Dom, and Skirm -- how many are older players who were around when we had smaller squad sizes. Of the players who want to keep squad sizes larger -- how many are newer players who have not had smaller squads? I am willing to bet (and this is just wild speculation on my part -- I recognize this) that most of the people who would be ok with smaller squads (including among the CPM) are players who came after we had larger squads implemented all those years ago. I am also willing to bet the players who are NOT ok with smaller squads are players who were around when squad size was buffed. I want to be clear -- I am not saying that (if the above guess were true) this would invalidate or validate anyone's opinion on the matter. There are some plenty fine arguments for both side of the debate that bear consideration. I am just curious as to how our collective past experiences affect our opinions on the matter as that may provide a clue as to a system that would the most people happy (or mostly happy.)
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1796	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:21:00 - [232] - Quote What makes a subset of players "happy" isn't always the best for balance.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 194	Posted - 2015.01.18 00:25:00 - [233] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Ratta mentioned that the CPM is vocally split on the topic. And as we have seen in the forums the playerbase is split on the topic. So I think we should consider the background of the players on each side of this debate. Specifically -- past experience with it. Of the players who want smaller squad sizes in Ambush, Dom, and Skirm -- how many are older players who were around when we had smaller squad sizes. Of the players who want to keep squad sizes larger -- how many are newer players who have not had smaller squads? I am willing to bet (and this is just wild speculation on my part -- I recognize this) that most of the people who would be ok with smaller squads (including among the CPM) are players who came after we had larger squads implemented all those years ago. I am also willing to bet the players who are NOT ok with smaller squads are players who were around when squad size was buffed. I want to be clear -- I am not saying that (if the above guess were true) this would invalidate or validate anyone's opinion on the matter. There are some plenty fine arguments for both side of the debate that bear consideration. I am just curious as to how our collective past experiences affect our opinions on the matter as that may provide a clue as to a system that would the most people happy (or mostly happy.) How about the ones who have played equal time with both (like me) and feel it would be better to have the largest size teams deploying together as possible? Platoon deploy running a public access platoon would be sweet! *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2015.01.18 03:30:00 - [234] - Quote Eh, 4 man squads werent bad Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback 4261	Posted - 2015.01.18 03:33:00 - [235] - Quote As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 681	Posted - 2015.01.18 03:41:00 - [236] - Quote So, if we get these squad numbers, would they add in the different sizes to the create squad menu or would pubs and FW be auto squad? In all honesty though, I don't think squad size is a problem. Player count in battle is. Would love 24v24 battles.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 811	Posted - 2015.01.18 08:36:00 - [237] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 715	Posted - 2015.01.18 09:14:00 - [238] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Kain Spero wrote: As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments. It still doesn't make reducing squad size a horrible idea. Why should squad size be a trade off between game modes? I doubt there a magical formula that says "no unless you have only 4 players per squad in pubs then 8 or 16 cannot compute for any thing else?" Its crap CPM diplomacy, and bad representation of the Dust 514 playerbase when you want to stop god knows on how many people who have running together for years from doing so, for the sake of P (vomit) C. You really ought to traverse the various chat channels and tell people they ought to kick every 2 guys out of each squad right now, they'll have more fun if the stop running with their friends. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 715	Posted - 2015.01.18 09:29:00 - [239] - Quote Vitantur: Why prove what is logged? And this answer right here sums it all up. Well, if your are going to claim something you have to prove it. If your repley to a question about where you proof is "its logged in a computer somewhere so i don't have to say anything" to me says the "debate" with you is over. All this B.S. hyperbole is NOT about stopping proto stomps (High SP vs Low SP), so lets stop ALL of the players in Dust 514 from playing with the people they've been running with for years. Its a crap way to cover a bad matchmaking system, for the sake of solo scrubs who dont want to play with others in the first place. I don't buy the "what about the noobs" for one second, squad size that doesn't stop a proto stomper going 20-2, or 30-6 or that sniper starter fit gong 1-15 because he/she doesn't have a clue whats going on. M.U is a failure in this regard, no two ways about it. A common saying on the forums is "Teamwork is OP" because teamwork wins matches, and man i never thought i'd see the day where CCP would be like "teams is OP, lets crack down on teamwork" Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
SirManBoy Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 811	Posted - 2015.01.18 09:33:00 - [240] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Kain Spero wrote: As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments. It still doesn't make reducing squad size a horrible idea. Why should squad size be a trade off between game modes? I doubt there a magical formula that says "no unless you have only 4 players per squad in pubs then 8 or 16 cannot compute for any thing else?" Its crap CPM diplomacy, and bad representation of the Dust 514 playerbase when you want to stop god knows on how many people who have running together for years from doing so, for the sake of P (vomit) C. You really ought to traverse the various chat channels and tell people they ought to kick every 2 guys out of each squad right now, they'll have more fun if the stop running with their friends. If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties.

Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 681	Posted - 2015.01.18 10:00:00 - [241] - Quote Why not just auto squad everyone that joins a battle and as default have voice comms on? I'm sorry but, lowering squad size will not stop proto stomps. Just have players auto squadded would help, especially if there was a deploy screen showing squads like there was in MAG.
THUNDERGROOVE Fatal Absolution 1298	Posted - 2015.01.18 10:06:00 - [242] - Quote I honestly don't see a need to make a new name for something that is fundamentally the same thing. A squad's a squad's a squad's a squad. Just don't allow one with more than 6 people join a pub. Dual tanking is for bad players. Come play a better game.
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 681	Posted - 2015.01.18 10:22:00 - [243] - Quote THUNDERGROOVE wrote: I honestly don't see a need to make a new name for something that is fundamentally the same thing. A squad's a squad's a squad's a squad. Just don't allow one with more than 6 people join a pub. Reducing squad size is hardly gonna change things. You know that.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 715	Posted - 2015.01.18 11:54:00 - [244] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties. Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking. Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one. FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off. To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight.... Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Flint Beastgood III Dead Man's Game RUST415 1302	Posted - 2015.01.18 12:53:00 - [245] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. Not sure about smaller squads, but 8-man-squads for FW would be nice. Team deploy would be even nicer. Skills - https://www.facebook.com/notes/flint-beastgood-iii/list-of-trained-skills/416505058477164
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6572	Posted - 2015.01.18 15:12:00 - [246] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Why not just auto squad everyone that joins a battle and as default have voice comms on? I'm sorry but, lowering squad size will not stop proto stomps. Just have players auto squadded would help, especially if there was a deploy screen showing squads like there was in MAG. Get out. I pick my squads, I don't get shoved into squads with some random twit. And God help the universe if I get shoved into a squad with a few of you. I'd spend the first part of the match insuring I would never have to hear your voices again. Also, found the logi tourist! Please cry directly into the bucket. -Ripley Riley
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 207	Posted - 2015.01.18 15:13:00 - [247] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: SirManBoy wrote: If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties. Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking. Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one. FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off. To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight.... Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it? Holy Sniper Cakes Batman, this post is absolutely true! I spent a year cracking the CCP heads over getting PVE and so far deaf ears. Ofc I also jammed the necessity of a market down CCPs throat (the same thing I had been saying since day 1) and had the help of every one else in the forums and still we don't have it yet and until we do have it I'm not going to believe we do. As far as I can tell the market analyst they hired to do the market stuff is still sipping mai tais on a beach somewhere until proven otherwise with a functioning market. Yes I know how much my Thales is worth no I don't need an analyst to tell me how much to charge I will ask for as much as I can possibly get for it! Hear me now, the same thing you are complaining is ruining the game is what you should be doing to have fun. Squad up with people! Make some tears and grow a pair of proto balls you whining "balancing" bad people. Its not balance when it all sucks. To have balance you have to be off the ground level in one measure or another. Scrap any thoughts of reducing squad size, that's the wrong direction. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 563	Posted - 2015.01.18 15:20:00 - [248] - Quote As stated before, I am not against reducing squad size to 4. I actually think it's a good idea, provided larger groups have somewhere to go with the Platoon (8) or Battleforce (16) options. As far as I see it, we want to acheve the following goals: - Make it easier for the matchmaker and team builder to work efficiently. - Reduce the effects of Pub-stomps (large coordinated squads vs random blueberries) - Still allow larger groups to enjoy the game without kicking half the team to squeeze into a squad of 4. So, here is a modified proposal for Pubs which I think will cover the above points. - Squads (4) gets matched against other squads (pref) and solo players. - Platoons (8) gets matched against other Platoons (pref) and Squads (4), but no solo players. - Battleforces (16) get matched against Battleforces (pref) and Platoons, but no Squads or solo players. So, the larger group you form, the larger opposition (groups) you will face. I suspect new players usually play solo or in small squads before they find a good corp, so in the above scenario they will never meet opposition greater than squads of 4. Vets with lots of friends can still enjoy grouping up together with the larger Platoon group size of 8. Big corps wanting to challenge other corps for a 16 vs 16 game can "easily" que-sync and get a private corp battle. Since the team size of 16 can be evenly divided by all group sizes, I beleve the matchmaker will have an easier time grouping everybody together.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 207	Posted - 2015.01.18 15:28:00 - [249] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: As stated before, I am not against reducing squad size to 4. I actually think it's a good idea, provided larger groups have somewhere to go with the Platoon (8) or Battleforce (16) options. As far as I see it, we want to acheve the following goals: - Make it easier for the matchmaker and team builder to work efficiently. - Reduce the effects of Pub-stomps (large coordinated squads vs random blueberries) - Still allow larger groups to enjoy the game without kicking half the team to squeeze into a squad of 4. So, here is a modified proposal for Pubs which I think will cover the above points. - Squads (4) gets matched against other squads (pref) and solo players. - Platoons (8) gets matched against other Platoons (pref) and Squads (4), but no solo players. - Battleforces (16) get matched against Battleforces (pref) and Platoons, but no Squads or solo players. So, the larger group you form, the larger opposition (groups) you will face. I suspect new players usually play solo or in small squads before they find a good corp, so in the above scenario they will never meet opposition greater than squads of 4. Vets with lots of friends can still enjoy grouping up together with the larger Platoon group size of 8. Big corps wanting to challenge other corps for a 16 vs 16 game can "easily" que-sync and get a private corp battle. Since the team size of 16 can be evenly divided by all group sizes, I beleve the matchmaker will have an easier time grouping everybody together. The smaller squad sizes just kill the teamwork already established, I could see smaller squad sizes being ok only if people were having wait issues because there are no slots in a team to join due to everyone being in a squad of 6 all the time but this is far from true. In fact the vast majority of people I see in game are running without a squad and sometimes even without the foggiest idea about what makes a team or what an OB is until it slaps them all over the forehead. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1788	Posted - 2015.01.18 15:39:00 - [250] - Quote My thought on this are simple. If you think this will actually help the game then go for it. If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making. Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on.

Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 563	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:09:00 - [251] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: As stated before, I am not against reducing squad size to 4. I actually think it's a good idea, provided larger groups have somewhere to go with the Platoon (8) or Battleforce (16) options. As far as I see it, we want to acheve the following goals: - Make it easier for the matchmaker and team builder to work efficiently. - Reduce the effects of Pub-stomps (large coordinated squads vs random blueberries) - Still allow larger groups to enjoy the game without kicking half the team to squeeze into a squad of 4. So, here is a modified proposal for Pubs which I think will cover the above points. - Squads (4) gets matched against other squads (pref) and solo players. - Platoons (8) gets matched against other Platoons (pref) and Squads (4), but no solo players. - Battleforces (16) get matched against Battleforces (pref) and Platoons, but no Squads or solo players. So, the larger group you form, the larger opposition (groups) you will face. I suspect new players usually play solo or in small squads before they find a good corp, so in the above scenario they will never meet opposition greater than squads of 4. Vets with lots of friends can still enjoy grouping up together with the larger Platoon group size of 8. Big corps wanting to challenge other corps for a 16 vs 16 game can "easily" que-sync and get a private corp battle. Since the team size of 16 can be evenly divided by all group sizes, I beleve the matchmaker will have an easier time grouping everybody together. The smaller squad sizes just kill the teamwork already established, I could see smaller squad sizes being ok only if people were having wait issues because there are no slots in a team to join due to everyone being in a squad of 6 all the time but this is far from true. In fact the vast majority of people I see in game are running without a squad and sometimes even without the foggiest idea about what makes a team or what an OB is until it slaps them all over the forehead. Then use the Platoon option? Regardless which group sizes the game provides there will always be groups of players which are either too big or too small. Right now we only have one option with a squad of 6, which does not even fit evenly into a team of 16. With the above proposal you will have three options to select from depending on which fits your group of friends the best.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 563	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:15:00 - [252] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: My thought on this are simple. If you think this will actually help the game then go for it. If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making. Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on. I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team. But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 207	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:21:00 - [253] - Quote Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 44	Posted - 2015.01.18 16:54:00 - [254] - Quote Did anyone propose to set squadsize at 5 and cap team size at 15 already? Divides nicely, reduces server load and still has (slightly) smaller squad size.
LAVALLOIS Nash 451	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:05:00 - [255] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking. Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one. FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off. To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight.... Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it? Im starting to think that you arent even reading anything ANYONE has written and you are just ranting and ranting that "well I cant play the game with people ive been playing with for years" For the sake of having a decent conversation, can you stop repeating that lie? 8 and 16 man squads means youll have even more friends. Sirmanboy is trying to work out a deal where 8 and 16 man squads could deploy in Public contracts, as long as they are deployed against another pair of 8 man squads or a 16 man squad. So that you and your friends can till queue together for a public dom/ambush/skim. Everyone is trying to compromise to make sure that new/causal players have somewhere to play, squads have somewhere to play, corps have somewhere to play, ect. But you arent listening to ANY of this. You just keep repeating that the game is ruined because you cant deploy with 5 other people against an unorganized team of casual players. The game is going in a very simple direction is going to benefit everyone: If you want to take it easy and play casually, Public is going to be made more friendly. If you like to play team focused and play to win, Faction Warfare is being ramped up and compromises might be made for deploys in Public. The only people who lose here are people who were counting on running into a team of new players for their success, or people in squads who always get carried, and know they might not make the 4 man cut for the squad, and they aren't good enough to survive in any other mode except by being carried in public. Yeah, its going to be rough for them. So do us all a favor, go pour yourself a coffee, take a smoke break if you smoke (chew some gum if you dont), and then read through this thread carefully. Youll see that alot of your concerns (No ISK for FW? Should have read the 10 posts from Rattati on mutiple threads about it) have already been looked at and will be part of the consideration for changing squad sizes and restrictions.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1805	Posted - 2015.01.18 17:24:00 - [256] - Quote In Response to Tesfa Alem, Part I In Response to Tesfa Alem, Part II In Response to Tesfa Alem, Part III (Point #5, continued) Vitantur: Why prove what is logged? Tesfa: And this answer right here sums it all up. Well, if your are going to claim something you have to prove it. If your repley to a question about where you proof is "its logged in a computer somewhere so i don't have to say anything" to me says the "debate" with you is over. Vitantur: I cannot prove (nor is it my function to prove) that a relationship exists between pubstomps and stompsquads. That doesn't mean that stompsquads aren't stomping matches; nor does it mean that your proof doesn't exist. We know that pertinent match details are stored server-side. Let's assume you and I were somehow able to access that data. If we were to analyze a sample of stomped matches, do you think we (you and I) would find evidence of a relationship between pubstomps and stompsquads? Or do you suspect we'd find proof to the contrary, namely, that no relationship whatsoever exists? In which of these cases do you think it more likely we (you and I) would return from our analysis and report to the masses: CCP Rattati wrote: I think it [the 4 man squad] is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 564	Posted - 2015.01.18 18:22:00 - [257] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5?
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1788	Posted - 2015.01.18 18:34:00 - [258] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: deezy dabest wrote: My thought on this are simple. If you think this will actually help the game then go for it. If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making. Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on. I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team. But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes. Maybe if they drop the rendering of objects that are 500m into the redline we could fit 4 more people into battle. That is just a thought that will be buried bu CCP scrambling to slap on more band aids that only push the game further into disarray. It is actions exactly like this which have led to myself and many others giving up on Dust. So many problems have been caused by band aid fixes like this one that is being proposed that it has led to an absolutely horrible experience. I can give many examples of band aids like this being applied but can only think of a few things that actually seemed to get FIXED. Hell just make match size in pubs 6 versus 6 so there is no lag and proto squads can be paired against proto squads. PROBLEM SOLVED.
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens Capital Punishment. 41	Posted - 2015.01.18 23:53:00 - [259] - Quote I'm gunna ruin scottys day and run squads of 5.. "winning" an inch at a time
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 211	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:21:00 - [260] - Quote deezy dabest wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: deezy dabest wrote: My thought on this are simple. If you think this will actually help the game then go for it. If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making. Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on. I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team. But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes. Maybe if they drop the rendering of objects that are 500m into the redline we could fit 4 more people into battle. That is just a thought that will be buried bu CCP scrambling to slap on more band aids that only push the game further into disarray. It is actions exactly like this which have led to myself and many others giving up on Dust. So many problems have been caused by band aid fixes like this one that is being proposed that it has led to an absolutely horrible experience. I can give many examples of band aids like this being applied but can only think of a few things that actually seemed to get FIXED. Hell just make match size in pubs 6 versus 6 so there is no lag and proto squads can be paired against proto squads. PROBLEM SOLVED. Just because I have proto gear doesn't mean I want to use it...I am not isk wealthy by any means, I instead attempt to be isk efficient. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*

DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 211	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:25:00 - [261] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 530	Posted - 2015.01.19 00:27:00 - [262] - Quote SirManBoy wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: SirManBoy wrote: Kain Spero wrote: As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments. It still doesn't make reducing squad size a horrible idea. Why should squad size be a trade off between game modes? I doubt there a magical formula that says "no unless you have only 4 players per squad in pubs then 8 or 16 cannot compute for any thing else?" Its crap CPM diplomacy, and bad representation of the Dust 514 playerbase when you want to stop god knows on how many people who have running together for years from doing so, for the sake of P (vomit) C. You really ought to traverse the various chat channels and tell people they ought to kick every 2 guys out of each squad right now, they'll have more fun if the stop running with their friends. If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties. The wind only blows as people perceive it. Reality and people's reactions to it are mitigated by their subjective experience. The thing being proposed is almost word for word what I proposed when I first started this topic months ago after Ratta's mention of it on Podcast. Only with the addition (that is vexing a lot of us) that all pubs get smaller squads. You know, some of us want to make some ISK. Maybe we don't want LP. So we play Amb, Skirm, and Dom. Some of us LIKE Dom and Amb. And we are going to have to kick friends out of squad. If you want to broker a deal consider leaving at least ONE game mode where we gain ISK (not PC because most people aren't in PC) and can go in will more of our friends.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP 1788	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:16:00 - [263] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: deezy dabest wrote: My thought on this are simple. If you think this will actually help the game then go for it. If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making. Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on. I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team. But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes. Maybe if they drop the rendering of objects that are 500m into the redline we could fit 4 more people into battle. That is just a thought that will be buried bu CCP scrambling to slap on more band aids that only push the game further into disarray. It is actions exactly like this which have led to myself and many others giving up on Dust. So many problems have been caused by band aid fixes like this one that is being proposed that it has led to an absolutely horrible experience. I can give many examples of band aids like this being applied but can only think of a few things that actually seemed to get FIXED. Hell just make match size in pubs 6 versus 6 so there is no lag and proto squads can be paired against proto squads. PROBLEM SOLVED. Just because I have proto gear doesn't mean I want to use it...I am not isk wealthy by any means, I instead attempt to be isk efficient. This is why I have actually advocated for random matchmaking in some form. I continually say "we don't want scotty to decide matches for us," which I honestly feel like CCP can not understand at all.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 354	Posted - 2015.01.19 05:21:00 - [264] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. How about no pre-mades for pubs and no comms to even out the odds for solo, casuals and new players. Then bring back corp battles for friends to que with. Then 8 or more in squads for FW so the team kill meta makes a bit more sense due to better control of who you play with. Because no. That's why. Punishing peoplefor having the audacity of making online friendships is dumbass. Making modes that reward team play better than pubstomping will solve most of the issue. Team play is relative. People who want to pop in and go solo, with teamwork, or the level thereof, being organic and questionable should not have to play against tryhard que syncers. Pubs are justifiably the mode that is full on solo and non-comms for that casual playstyle. The problem is two different types of gamers getting mixed together. I'm better than laser focused; I'm hybrid focused.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 715	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:40:00 - [265] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Im starting to think that you arent even reading anything ANYONE has written and you are just ranting and ranting that "well I cant play the game with people ive been playing with for years" For the sake of having a decent conversation, can you stop repeating that lie? 8 and 16 man squads means youll have even more friends. Sirmanboy is trying to work out a deal where 8 and 16 man squads could deploy in Public contracts, as long as they are deployed against another pair of 8 man squads or a 16 man squad. So that you and your friends can till queue together for a public dom/ambush/skim. Everyone is trying to compromise to make sure that new/causal players have somewhere to play, squads have somewhere to play, corps have somewhere to play, ect. But you arent listening to ANY of this. You just keep repeating that the game is ruined because you cant deploy with 5 other people against an unorganized team of casual players. The game is going in a very simple direction is going to benefit everyone: If you want to take it easy and play casually, Public is going to be made more friendly. If you like to play team focused and play to win, Faction Warfare is being ramped up and compromises might be made for deploys in Public. The only people who lose here are people who were counting on running into a team of new players for their success, or people in squads who always get carried, and know they might not make the 4 man cut for the squad, and they aren't good enough to survive in any other mode except by being carried in public. Yeah, its going to be rough for them. So do us all a favor, go pour yourself a coffee, take a smoke break if you smoke (chew some gum if you dont), and then read through this thread carefully. Youll see that alot of your concerns (No ISK for FW? Should have read the 10 posts from Rattati on mutiple threads about it) have already been looked at and will be part of the consideration for changing squad sizes and restrictions. You ought to get Reading comprehension up to at least level 3. Sir man boy has alread accepted 4 man squad only for pubs. SirManBoy wrote: Kain Spero wrote: As far as I know at this point the CPM is no longer split on the issue of 4 man squads in pubs provided it enables 8 and 16 man squads in FW and PC. I feel that this is an acceptable, albeit imperfect proposition in the short-term, but the ideal long-term solution needs to include a way for 8 and 16-man units to play ambush and dom matches as well. But yes, no one is standing in the way of this, especially when it has the potential to finally give us an outlet for perpetual team deployments. Its not a comprimise at all, we can already seperate new players from vets via the academy by a standard metric, toal WP earned. Why not stagger that metric? Seperate players by every 100,000 warpoints, then you give everybody somewhere to go, and keep the vets with the vets, causuals with the casuals, and noobs with the noobs. Instead, we will continue to throw new players to wolves straight out of the academy, and trading my friends because scoty's incompetence is a no- go. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 715	Posted - 2015.01.19 06:59:00 - [266] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: @ Tesfa Alem I cannot prove (nor is it my function to prove) whether or not a relationship exists between pubstomps and stompsquads. That doesn't mean that stompsquads aren't stomping matches; nor does it mean that proof does not exist. We know that pertinent match details are stored server-side. Let's assume you and I were somehow able to access that data. If we were to analyze a sample of stomped matches, do you think we (you and I) would find evidence of a relationship between pubstomps and stompsquads? Or do you suspect we'd find proof to the contrary, namely, that no relationship whatsoever exists? In which of these cases do you think it more likely we would return from our analysis thinking aloud: CCP Rattati wrote: I think it [the 4 man squad] is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping If you can't prove it dont claim it. I would love to see Rattati show why it would work as well. To answer your question, Since stomping is about High SP vs Low SP I'd work on breaking that up first. The first thought in my mind seeing squads of 40 million SP players fighting 5 million SP players is "what are they doing paired against each other? rather than "Since players have figured out running in a squad improves the odds of winning, lets reduce the squad numbers for everyone and leave the 40 million SP vets against the 5 million SP players" Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
LAVALLOIS Nash 453	Posted - 2015.01.19 07:33:00 - [267] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: You ought to get Reading comprehension up to at least level 3. Sir man boy has alread accepted 4 man squad only for pubs. You should have just taken my advice and gone back to check what people really said. Here, look: SirManBoy wrote: I think we can solve this whole issue by allowing battleforces to queue into pub matches provided that they can only launch against another battleforce. Teams could coordinate their queues accordingly in channels thus making the situation fairly efficient. This also allows large groupings of players to enjoy all of the match types afforded to everyone else without adding other match types to FW. It might also be worth considering an option in settings that allows players to check whether or not they would be willing to act as auxiliary members of a battleforce that they are themselves not a part of. There are some solo players who would find this appealing and it would also help battleforces fill the gaps when they don't have exactly 16 players. SirManBoy wrote: You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW. Seems to me his support is pretty tentative on some other conditions also being met. Tesfa Alem wrote: Its not a comprimise at all, we can already seperate new players from vets via the academy by a standard metric, toal WP earned. Why not stagger that metric? Seperate players by every 100,000 warpoints, then you give everybody somewhere to go, and keep the vets with the vets, causuals with the casuals, and noobs with the noobs. Instead, we will continue to throw new players to wolves straight out of the academy, and trading my friends because scoty's incompetence is a no- go. Because, (again covered), the playerbase is too small to split up by meta or tier level. If you start tirering people by WP or SP, its going to stretch the playerbase to the point that there will be alot of matches with incomplete teams. The reason this is a viable matchmaking aid is because it helps spread out the vet players over both teams. Its easier to place vets in blocks of 4 into a situation where they will be opposing eachother instead of all on the same team. 6 man groups, the SP is too concentrated. This dilutes it across both teams. As for your friends, you can 8 man squad with them, you can 16 man squad with them, you can hang out in a channel, you can skype eachother, you can text and call eachother, email eachother, send chainmail to eachother. So how exactly are you trading your friends in? Where are the burned bridges? Just because you cant deploy with exactly 6 people in the exact mode you want with the exact conditions you want....you wont have any friends? That doesn't make any sense. But anyway, I doubt you care or that youll take the time to read. You just want your entitlement, and everyone else be damned.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 566	Posted - 2015.01.19 10:42:00 - [268] - Quote DJINN Jecture wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps. Then Sir, we are in total agreement (One can dream, right?) +1 As you can see from my previous posts, I agree to a reduction of squad size to 4 IF Platoons (8) and Battleforces (16) have access to all modes (Pubs & FW). This is doable by arranging how each group size is matched against eachother, as per my previous proposal. Question is how difficult it would be to implement, if even possible. Is it the golden bullet which will end pub stomps overnight? Absolutley not. Will it give more options to players to play the game on their terms? Yes Will it give small squads and solo players a break from large organized squads? Yes Will it help the matchmaker to balance the matches? I honestly think so.
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 682	Posted - 2015.01.19 12:02:00 - [269] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Why not just auto squad everyone that joins a battle and as default have voice comms on? I'm sorry but, lowering squad size will not stop proto stomps. Just have players auto squadded would help, especially if there was a deploy screen showing squads like there was in MAG. Get out. I pick my squads, I don't get shoved into squads with some random twit. And God help the universe if I get shoved into a squad with a few of you. I'd spend the first part of the match insuring I would never have to hear your voices again. At what point did I say you can't make a squad of your own? I merely suggested that people that join a battle, who are not in a squad, automatically get put in a squad. If you don't wanna hear people, you can mute them. Squad size is not the problem. The problem is bad matchmaking, people not knowing how to put voice comms on and no one wanting to squad with people they don't know. Put comms on by default, even if its PTT, at least others can hear you. Put people that aren't in squad into a squad automatically, then remove them from squad when the match is over. The main problem though is matchmaking, fix that. Or hurry up with meta level battles. Those two things would reduce these stomps more than anything else.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 716	Posted - 2015.01.19 12:02:00 - [270] - Quote LAVALLOIS Nash wrote: Because, (again covered), the playerbase is too small to split up by meta or tier level. If you start tirering people by WP or SP, its going to stretch the playerbase to the point that there will be alot of matches with incomplete teams. The reason this is a viable matchmaking aid is because it helps spread out the vet players over both teams. Its easier to place vets in blocks of 4 into a situation where they will be opposing eachother instead of all on the same team. 6 man groups, the SP is too concentrated. This dilutes it across both teams. As for your friends, you can 8 man squad with them, you can 16 man squad with them, you can hang out in a channel, you can skype eachother, you can text and call eachother, email eachother, send chainmail to eachother. So how exactly are you trading your friends in? Where are the burned bridges? Just because you cant deploy with exactly 6 people in the exact mode you want with the exact conditions you want....you wont have any friends? That doesn't make any sense. But anyway, I doubt you care or that youll take the time to read. You just want your entitlement, and everyone else be damned. Entitlement would infer I have acess to something which nobody else does. Everybody from zero SP and up has the ability to form squads, to find other people in the squad finder, and to join open squads. A lot of corp recruitment is done via squadfinder. My ability to use the same tools equally open to every one in the game from the academy on up is not restrictive. What you are advocating is the nearly the definition of entitlement. "I refuse to do something open equally to all players so all players should be brought down to my level." Friendships are built in game by running with players in a squad. I log into dust to squad up with my friends, or i squad up to make new ones, I don't as you put it " skype each other, you can text and call eachother, email each other, send chainmail to each other " or do everything but play Dust 514 with them when I log on to play Dust "B-b-but, but you can 8 man squad or Q-sync" Which defeats the same self purpose for 6 man squads are getting nerfed. If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how will 8 man squads be balanced for FW? If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how is encouraging two Q-synced squads of 8 to compensate going to balanced for pubs? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

pegasis prime BIG BAD W0LVES 1963	Posted - 2015.01.19 12:11:00 - [271] - Quote I would dig squad sizes being reduced to 4 or 5 as long as an increase of players per machine say 20 a side also accompanys this Proud Caldari purist . Rank 10 colonel omiwarrior. I fought and bled for the State on Caldari prime.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 567	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:22:00 - [272] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how will 8 man squads be balanced for FW? Should they be balanced in FW? If we have four options: Solo, Squad, Platoon and Battleforce, and the likelihood of winning is greater the larger group you have, what do you think people who want to be successful in FW will do? Band together and form larger groups. As it should be IMHO. (At least then we don't have to endure the 6 + 6 + 4 Q-sync mess. I would just find the appropriate Platoon or Battleforce and go) Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how is encouraging two Q-synced squads of 8 to compensate going to balanced for pubs? By making sure a Platoon can never face Solo and small Squads, just other Platoons or Battleforces.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1819	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:43:00 - [273] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: 1. If you can't prove it [stompsquads stomp matches] dont claim it. 2. To answer your question, Since stomping is about High SP vs Low SP I'd work on breaking that up first. The first thought in my mind seeing squads of 40 million SP players fighting 5 million SP players is "what are they doing paired against each other?" rather than "Since players have figured out running in a squad improves the odds of winning, lets reduce the squad numbers for everyone and leave the 40 million SP vets against the 5 million SP players" 1. When did it become a prerequisite to back one's observations with scientific proof? It is the job of the forum-savvy player to report patterns observed in battle; more often than not, the more overt patterns are found to be substantive. Take, for example, "the post 1.7 HAV is a wee-tad too good" or "the post 1.8 Scout is out-assaulting the Assault". Such observations weren't backed by statistically significant samples, but they were nonetheless based in fact. These observations are no different from "pubstomps are a wee-tad too common". 2. "The reason this is a viable matchmaking aid is because it helps spread out the vet players over both teams. Its easier to place vets in blocks of 4 into a situation where they will be opposing each other instead of all on the same team. 6 man groups, the SP is too concentrated. This dilutes it across both teams." - Regis Blackbird
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 683	Posted - 2015.01.19 13:58:00 - [274] - Quote Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1820	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:12:00 - [275] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem. The gloves come off in FW and PC. For a more casual experience, queue for a public contract. Public Contract: * Matchmaking gives a best effort at evenly-sided teams * Odds of win:loss are near 50:50; odds of stomp are minimized * Ideal for the soloist or small squad FW / PC: * Matchmaking plays little, if any, role * Odds of win:loss or stomp are determined solely by participants * Supports squads up to 8 and/or team deploy * Interact with and impact the greater Eve universe
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 683	Posted - 2015.01.19 14:23:00 - [276] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Echo 1991 wrote: Yet they want 8 man squads for FW. Meaning squads can stomp a lot easier in FW. Squads size isn't the problem. The gloves come off in FW and PC. For a more casual experience, queue for a public contract. Public Contract: * Matchmaking gives a best effort at evenly-sided teams * Odds of win:loss are near 50:50; odds of stomp are minimized * Ideal for the soloist or small squad FW / PC: * Matchmaking plays little, if any, role * Odds of win:loss or stomp are determined solely by participants * Supports squads up to 8 and/or team deploy * Interact with and impact the greater Eve universe Or teach people to squad up/auto squad them and have voice active by default. Why relegate pub matches to nothing more than a casual environment? Not everyone likes FW, and this idea stops people from playing with people they know just because matchmaking is crap. Fix matchmaking or add meta level matches. Then we'll see if its squad size that is a problem.
LAVALLOIS Nash 455	Posted - 2015.01.19 15:51:00 - [277] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Entitlement would infer I have acess to something which nobody else does. Everybody from zero SP and up has the ability to form squads, to find other people in the squad finder, and to join open squads. A lot of corp recruitment is done via squadfinder. My ability to use the same tools equally open to every one in the game from the academy on up is not restrictive. That would be true if you were using milita gear instead of Six kin rifles. Its not just about using squad finder. It about all that SP being stacked in one area. A bunch of new players making a squad with themselves wont be able to stack as much SP and thus, will be put at a disadvantage. What we want is to reduce the concentrate of SP in casual pubs, and increase it in the other modes. Because you want to maintain a status quo that is harmful to the game, and you want to continue to stack SP in squads unfairly, yeah, im going to go ahead and call that an entitlement. Tesfa Alem wrote: Friendships are built in game by running with players in a squad. I log into dust to squad up with my friends, or i squad up to make new ones, I don't as you put it " skype each other, you can text and call eachother, email each other, send chainmail to each other " or do everything but play Dust 514 with them when I log on to play Dust Ah, so now the truth comes out. About time. For several posts you were implying that your strong friendships and people you see everyday would be broken. Yet, according to what you just said, some days you dont even have 6 of your friends online, and run a public squad of randoms looking for more friends. And the point I made by listing alternative communications was simply to point out that if you had friends, something like a change to a game mode shouldn't impact that. There is a difference between friends and "people I play pub matches with". Friendships last. Relationships of convenience do not. So how exactly would you be "trading in my friends" when some of them arent even logged in that day? Echo 1991 wrote: Or teach people to squad up/auto squad them and have voice active by default. Why relegate pub matches to nothing more than a casual environment? Not everyone likes FW, and this idea stops people from playing with people they know just because matchmaking is crap. Fix matchmaking or add meta level matches. Then we'll see if its squad size that is a problem. Faction Warfare is supposed to be rough. Its supposed to be a harder mode. Its supposed to be the "next step". Public matches are supposed to be casual because its the only place new and casual players have to play. Why are casual players important? Healthy playerbase. When they dont get stomped, they have fun. When they have fun, they keep coming back. When they keep coming back, the game is more active at all times. When the game is more active at all times, corps have more people to recruit. And when corps have more people to recruit, players invest more. When players invest more, they buy AUR to take it to the next level. Annnnnnnd......when players buy AUR, the game stays online and the development continues. This is not a 65$ triple A title. Its what we call "entry level", as it targets the lowest price bracket. Entry level games needs an entry level game mode. If you want people to take this game up and climb to the next level, you have to give them a reasonable ladder. Public matches (For lone mercs for small squads, per the description) is supposed to be a dead end game mode. Its for some practice, listening to some music, taking it easy, trying some new gear. If you want to play Public like its a serious mode, youll have to use the Battle force vs Battleforce, or move to FW. Its not my fault you were focused on a mode that was never meant to be a serious mode.
Echo 1991 Titans of Phoenix VP Gaming Alliance 685	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:08:00 - [278] - Quote And you're focusing on game modes that not everyone plays. Everyone plays public matches. Especially those that need to make isk. Unless missions are added (not these silly daily missions) that are for different NPCs so I can make isk without needing to play PC or a pub match then I wouldn't play pubs. I remember when squad size was at 4, pub stomps happened all the time then. Its not gonna change now.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 716	Posted - 2015.01.19 16:16:00 - [279] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how will 8 man squads be balanced for FW? Should they be balanced in FW? If we have four options: Solo, Squad, Platoon and Battleforce, and the likelihood of winning is greater the larger group you have, what do you think people who want to be successful in FW will do? Band together and form larger groups. As it should be IMHO. (At least then we don't have to endure the 6 + 6 + 4 Q-sync mess. I would just find the appropriate Platoon or Battleforce and go) Tesfa Alem wrote: If 6 man squads are too OP for pubs, how is encouraging two Q-synced squads of 8 to compensate going to balanced for pubs? By making sure a Platoon can never face Solo and small Squads, just other Platoons or Battleforces. Actually this variation of the idea i like. I would much rather keep orgainized groups vs other organized groupsin the game mode of preference, rather than restricting current normal gameplay to the barren wastes of FW and PC. More organization leads to better matches, not less. On the side topic of auto squads, it is a feature i have seen regularly in War Thunder. It's hit and miss, it doesn't stop random players from doing random things, but there are higher rewards for keeping close to your assigned squad mate than flying off alone. I tend to fly close enough to get the extra points whenever he/she scores a kill and vice versa. It certainly couldn't hurt Dust, especially if we introduce a teamwork bonus for WP to incentivize people to stick close together at least for the duration of the match. Mute them or turn squad chat off who cares? You can work together without comms, or just run solo. You're not tied to the squad (i.e didn't LFS or ask for an invite) so you do can still do what you will. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Petra 222 SoM Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 34	Posted - 2015.01.20 01:32:00 - [280] - Quote I am on the, no to smaller squads, side. less friends, less fun for many players that only stick around for the social aspect and friends in game. I fear this would push many of my friends to play even less. if we could have some sort of proper matchmaking we would need to put more limitations on player choice and experience. I am not not well versed on this subject but it seems like this is only trying to fix a symptom of a larger problem.

DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.01.20 03:53:00 - [281] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: DJINN Jecture wrote: Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps. Then Sir, we are in total agreement (One can dream, right?) +1 As you can see from my previous posts, I agree to a reduction of squad size to 4 IF Platoons (8) and Battleforces (16) have access to all modes (Pubs & FW). This is doable by arranging how each group size is matched against eachother, as per my previous proposal. Question is how difficult it would be to implement, if even possible. Is it the golden bullet which will end pub stomps overnight? Absolutley not. Will it give more options to players to play the game on their terms? Yes Will it give small squads and solo players a break from large organized squads? Yes Will it help the matchmaker to balance the matches? I honestly think so. I realize this but have seen how incomplete a 4 man squad truly from the Closed Beta and how much better a squad of 6 is able to survive even if the rest of the team is sitting in the red line wondering what to do because it's their first ever match and they still are unsure at what range their guns are effective. For instance COD players would expect next to unlimited range on their guns while a vet would know that for the most part you gotta close on your enemy to kill them. The increased amount of support a 6 man squad can give to each other is far more robust than the 4 man squad and thus stands a better chance of survival, even in PC battles. In fact I have been in PC Battles where squads were made up of 4 man teams and invariably they have been hard pressed to last longer than the first 2 merc going down. There is less room for the specializing that makes Dust great. More general suits benefit the squads more resulting in less logi, less dps, less scouting and less suppression fire simply. This also means that overall the teams would have to bee better planned with more pre battle role based decisions made to ensure all roles needed are covered. Sure you have the same number of team mates but in a pub crawl you get your squad set up so all roles are covered to maximize your efficiency, the team has no control over who joins or leaves and no time to discuss beforehand as we had when Pub Matches had a warbarge before deploying to the field. When CCP described this game on launch (if I remember correctly) they described it as a tactical mmo fps which to me says the strongest tactic wins. If we take tactics out of it we may as well just go play BF4 or COD of whatever flavor because those games have been through the grinder and can do a good online MMO fps from a run and gun perspective. I like the fact that planning gives you options, strategy victory. Not just having the best twitch reaction to a flicker on your screen. From all I have said you may notice that I specifically did not say I am against 4 man squads, in fact they may do great as part of a platoon, I advocated for larger groupings to allow for more varied tactics to be used in pub matches. I personally would rather group up in 2-4 man squads and deploy as a platoon rather than deploy as 2 six man squads q-synching and end up shooting at my bros. If that means 8 man squads or platoons either way is perfectly acceptable but I honestly believe there should not be a limit on squad size other than max team size and that there shouldn't be a max team size either. I know right, obviously this would require a lot of work from CCP to fix the way the game works, and in addition to that to build levels big enough and optimized enough that render wouldn't be an issue. This is not what the OP is about though, its about 4/6/8 man squads, not platoons, not open team sizes (could be a worse pub stomp based on numbers than anyone has seen before) but I maintain in the current for 4 man squads are just opening up Dust to more complaints about pub stomps not less. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
E-Rock Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 43	Posted - 2015.01.20 07:41:00 - [282] - Quote PLEASE DON"T NERF SQUAD SIZES!!!!! PLEEEEEEAAAAAAAASE. I'LL GIVE YOU 100 MILLION ISK. The Japanese players call "hate mail", "fan mail".pÇÇµùÑµ£¼F¬PsñºS+êsñ½ -Founder of CKC and UCKC -Molon Labe
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1838	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:00:00 - [283] - Quote Quote: 4 man squads from Closed Beta Dust has changed since we last saw 4 man squads. The players have also changed. In Closed Beta, a seasoned merc may have had an SP headstart on a newbro of 1M SP; the combined SP gap of this veteran's "stompsquad" would have been a maximum of 4-5M SP over that of a newbro or newbro squad. Today, that gap can quite literally reach into the 100s of millions. If we think of this SP gap in terms of weight, today's stompsquads are both larger and many times heavier than yesterday's.
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1024	Posted - 2015.01.20 15:58:00 - [284] - Quote @Rattati Is this something that might happen in 2 months or longer? I need to know if I should buy more rubber bands for AFKing the proto stomps in pubs If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1839	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:13:00 - [285] - Quote voidfaction wrote: derp Looks like you'll be needing more than rubber bands: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187538&find=unread
voidfaction Nos Nothi 1024	Posted - 2015.01.20 16:34:00 - [286] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: voidfaction wrote: derp Looks like you'll be needing more than rubber bands: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187538&find=unread I have a BPO logi so I will only need to play long enough to drop some uplinks. If you can't kill them scan them. Meta 13 Proto Stomp G-I Scout
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 214	Posted - 2015.01.20 18:08:00 - [287] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Quote: 4 man squads from Closed Beta Dust has changed since we last saw 4 man squads. The players have also changed. In Closed Beta, a seasoned merc may have had an SP headstart on a newbro of 1M SP; the combined SP gap of this veteran's "stompsquad" would have been a maximum of 4-5M SP over that of a newbro or newbro squad. Today, that gap can quite literally reach into the 100s of millions. If we think of this SP gap in terms of weight, today's stompsquads are both larger and many times heavier than yesterday's. Dust hasn't changed that much. There are still very well skilled players on the field stomping other well skilled players, noobs and vets alike. Measuring the "stomp factor" of a squad by SP is a mistake. To really look at "stomp factor" you can use the formula WP/(KDRKills). It is a very real metric on how well the player kills and works with the team. The lower the number, the better the player is (any number approaching 1 is going to shoot blue balls of fire out of their eyes instantly evaporating the entire enemy team). With this metric you will see duna2002 at a stomp factor of 2.11337~ whereas for instance myself clocking in at around 213.59645~. By far duna2002 is the better player, and tbh with a KDR of 45.03 I would expect him to be. Using this metric to adjust how scotty builds teams may be the answer to the problem, ofc I would also like to point out that being able to pick which fights we take and those we don't would be a better option. Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
ZymposieR Rusty Dead Man's Game RUST415 15	Posted - 2015.01.20 20:45:00 - [288] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. =ƒæì But I would go further ... 2 in pubs and 16 in FW and PC. Or 6 in FW when we get corp battles....
Duke Noobiam The Dukes of Death 347	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:50:00 - [289] - Quote Love this idea. 4 man squad max for pubs. FW and PC could and should allow for larger squads .
Zene Ren Hired Ghost 116	Posted - 2015.01.22 21:08:00 - [290] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Love this idea. 4 man squad max for pubs. FW and PC could and should allow for larger squads . 4 man squad for pubs > 8 man squad for FW > 16 man team deploy PC man that's logical and fits in reality of Dust, it's nearly like magic ! Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding

Hector Carson G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 159	Posted - 2015.01.23 04:57:00 - [291] - Quote Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. I would LOVE an eight man squad for FW, or even 16 Great idea: For the UI when you bring up the squad creation, give us 3 options: Create Squad (4 Man, can do pubs, FW, and PC) Create Patrol (8 Man, can do FW and PC) Create Platoon (16 Man, can do FW and PC) That'd be super super cool if you could do that. love it love everything about it, but just one thing, could they add a little bit of an ISK payout in FW as well with loyalty points just make it to where you earn only half of what you would get in a pub. Assault c.k0 Proto Tankers

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 15520	Posted - 2015.01.23 07:45:00 - [292] - Quote Thanks everyone, all feedback appreciated! "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"



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