In Response to Tesfa Alem


1. * Better matchmaking: Blaming squad size for dust's current troubles is ludicrous ... What is the evidence for this claim?

Squad size has everything to do with today's matchmaking failures. When Scotty fails to find competent opposition for a large squad of vets, we get a pubstomp. Today, pubstomps are as common as good fights. This is evidence of a problem.

2. How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new players who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches?

Is it not reasonable to assume that newbros are less to blame for a given pubstomp than the pubstompers doing the stomping? If Team Building is working properly, newbros will find themselves onto either side of a match and effectively cancel each other out.

3. * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become.

Not at all BS. When Scotty succeeds in pairing equally competent forces against one another, we get a good fight. When he fails to do so, we get a stomp. There are a finite number of squads (and stompsquads) available to Scotty at the time of matchmaking. Increasing that number gives Scotty a larger pool to work with, which in turn increases the probability that he'll serve a good fight. Further, a decrease in squad size translates to a decrease in Max(Mu) potential, which again increases the probability of a good fight.

4. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people with a 4 man squad

A single squad carrying its side to victory should be a difficult undertaking but is not cause for concern. A single squad all-but-guaranteeing its side a victory match-after-match represents a serious matchmaking problem. When Scotty does his job well, the odds of winning or losing a given match are near 50:50 and winning has more to do with "teamwork" than "squadwork".

5. How can you tell, player side, that stomps are directly related to squad size? But to any player who wasn't in our squad it looks the end screen makes it look like a bunch of random blueberries got together. And thats how it is for 99% of my matches,lots of of buddies run in all differnt corps and channels, and there is no way for anybody to tell exactly how many people were in one squad without cheking the team selection during the match. If you can't reliable know who was in a squad or not at the end of the match, how can you tie squad size in of itself to a stomp?

It isn't difficult to make a mental note of the players who've stomped a match. Further, the odds of encountering the same players again and again over the course of a couple hours are pretty high. Even a dimwitted guy like me can spot a pattern if it's put-in-face a sufficient number of times.

While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments.

I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players.

So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads.

Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match.

Less opportunity for team work? Uhh, that's sorta the point, not everybody can find a team, let alone one that can be relied upon to gang up on those who don't.

From what I remember, stomping became much easier once we had 6 man squads and don't you think there were other factors in why there were stomps in closed beta like the huge difference between militia and prototype gear? Or maybe the match making and lack of Mu? Mu, from what I understand, tries to make the teams as even as possible, but part of the problem is that even if you pit 6 man squads against 6 players of equal skill, the squad wins because they're in a blob, they have passive scans, they have a designated logi repping their heavy, they have nanite injectors to preserve their proliferate, they communicate and flank, they can request nanohives... it goes on and on.

Sure, it's teamwork, but it's too much to expect from pub matches just like you said so assigning people into random squads isn't preferabble in my mind.

Ok so what you want is less teamwork? More Pubstomps, so long as its not you getting stomped.

The thing is though, this is a team game not meant to showcase one player for turning the tide of battle, but rather working together wins. For that we have Wolfenstein 3d, a perfectly horid game that you likely can't find anymore unless you have a super special squirrel stash, or COD where it is a team game but even one rifle master on hardcore can kill the entire enemy team if they are good enough.

My stomp suit usually has a lv1 CR, lv1 sever logi suit, proto rep tool and an adv injector. Cost is less than my PC suit and it works just as good to logi bro and kill all at the same time. Average WP earned in the suit is around 1200-1500 wp. The reason it is a stomp suit is the fact that it allows the heavys to maintain their positions and stay up fighting, and helps the team.

Pubstomps honestly have inspired more people to join corps than any other feature in this game. TLDR join a squad or corp and stop being part of the group being stomped and learn to stomp.

Git gud. Git on a Squad. Support the team to stop the stomping.

...lots was said...

Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad...

The only thing you loose are 2 men in your squad. Big whoop.

I'll end my comparison to Starhawk here.

Did you thought people that played Starhawk that got constantly stomped by the one sided clan battles didn't complained? Of course they did. On the facebook page and on the forums.

We gave ideas such as limitting how many clan members can be in a normal pub match and all that. But of course the same clans that you would see stomping all day used the same excuse that the pubstomping corps use in Dust 514 "Why should I be limitted to play with my friends? It's not fair!"

I have seen people like you before thanks to Starhawk. And people like you drove it to the ground because they wanter EZ mode. Don't believe me? Fo buy the multiplayer version only for the game. It costs $20. And see dor yourself how empty it is.

Is this what you want for Dust? Simply because in pubs you have to loose 2 men? What about the whole game? People keep living this game. It only has like what 1k-3k players at peek hours?

Also on FW you can sell your salvage and still make a pretty penny. Not my fault that you decided to run proto in a gamemode that doesn't pay ISK directly.

4 man squads for pubs
6-8 man squads for FW
Hell with it, even team deploy for FW.

EDIT: excuse my grammar. I am on mobile and it is a pain in the ass to type and trying to correct what I typed because it keeps taking me back to the top of the page for some reason...

You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW.

You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW.

Where there are balance mechanics meant to protect players there is no true meta. I'm okay with protectionist matchmaking principles in pubs because they are meant to be a more casual experience, but if we ever hope to give meaning to FW then we really need the gloves to come off so that it's a harsher experience.

There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision.

By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks.

Public Squad 4 members... and Meta-Lock... will save Dust.

I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses.

Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide.

Its a way to balance vs noobs. sure a vet with high SP has the advantage but they wont have the added advantage of a running full proto. so many say proto dont mean anything then why do so many squad up and run full proto now in pubs? If proto means nothing why are they not all running milit

Stuff,,,,,..,,,

or proto gear i have been saving up for running pubs.
I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game.

I don't disagree with your view. But I still don't see how meta lock stops the division of a small player bse further and creates an artificial barrier when one isn't needed if tiercide is introduced. I am not entirely sure why this isn't being proposed rather than meta lock.

Apologies for coming across as "lazy", Imp Smash; this certainly my intent.

The OP of this thread lists some of the positive effects of reducing squad size. Explanation as to "why" can be found throughout the body of this thread, your thread, and a handful of other threads wherein the conversation has come up and reasons "why not" have proven elusive and/or underdeveloped. The original purpose of this thread was to pose to the community "why not?" in an attempt to better understand resistance to a change which would very likely benefit gameplay.

The "why not" has been fleshed out a 'bit more, and it seems a compromise may be reached. I (for one) am thrilled at the prospect of seeing a decrease in pubstomps, but I'm equally excited at the thought of participating in a 8+ man squads for "gloves-off" FW battles.

Dropping squad size in Dom/Skirm would, I think, be problematic.

You guys have me close to sold on 4-man squads in pubs provided that we find a solution that allows larger groups to enjoy the same match variety as everyone else, but if we're going down the road of making pubs more friendly to solo players, new players, etc., then I see no reason to go out of the way to protect people in FW.

Where there are balance mechanics meant to protect players there is no true meta. I'm okay with protectionist matchmaking principles in pubs because they are meant to be a more casual experience, but if we ever hope to give meaning to FW then we really need the gloves to come off so that it's a harsher experience.

There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision.

By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks.

4 man squads would also justify dropping high end OB WP requirements.

The original 2500 WP drop was actually balanced around the 4 man squads In closed beta where a highly efficient squad could drop three but a decent squad might pull one or two.

The advent of 6 man squads saw the "steel rain" weather patterns that brought about the nerf to begin with.

There are a lot of reasons for baseline 4 man squads.

At the most basic level in military forces, four man "fire teams" led by corporals are the baseline unit. The 8-16 man unit is more appropriately called a squad, whereas a 32-36 man unit would be a platoon.

I know, don't bring real life into my game, but this doctrinal pattern , with minor variation, hasn't changed a whole lot over the last hundred years because it works.

Player retention is not going to go up if noobs are slaughtered over and over in pubs by proto players
I know [some] Vets and proto stompers make fun and laugh about getting players to quit. They do not care about player retention.
If those are the types of people CCP is going to listen to then I am in the wrong game.

When is the best time to worry about player retention? After everyone quits or before?

Do we keep the players we have until the proto stompers drive more noob and casual players to quit?
Or
Do something now to try and keep new players and casual players?

I need to know the answer to that.

I don't see how meta lock will work. It will divide the player base up further. and people will go to their starter fits and wreck with all their sp bonuses.

Meta lock (if I understand it right) is a poor substitute for tiercide.

I guess I just don't have the mindset to be a griefer or bully. I don't want to squash the new guy. I want a fair game.

There should be a potential cost to being anti-social in FW and a potential benefit for those who form ties and make allies. There is no net gain in the meta of FW if the advantage of being on an organized team is always cancelled out against another perfectly matched opponent. If we ever find a way to make the faction experience similar to the corp/alliance experience, then people could more easily find each other and interact with their factional allies thereby naturally promoting organized team play over soloing. In my opinion, FW needs to be something totally unique and entirely meta-driven, but pub-style matchmaking balance jeopardizes that vision.

By the way, if you disagree with that sentiment, be kind enough to express your dissent without resorting to insults, innuendos, or other remarks that serve only to attack me for who I am or what corp I belong to. There's really no need for that kind of discourse. Thanks.

It-¦s not Tiericide....

FAIR GAME.

Many Dust-Players think running proto in public match is a "right" because they played since closed or open beta... and got more that 50M SP...

As voidfaction said...

If you run a "basic" fit and basic weapon, you will have more bonuses that a noob player, and STILL ADVANTAGE...

But if you play with a Proto weapon and kill with 2-3 shots a militia player... you are not a "PRO", only a overpowered player vs. a casual - noob player..