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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
186
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Posted - 2015.01.12 14:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The CPM is very vocally split on this topic. I think it is one of the simplest way to alleviate pubstomping but I do understand that 4 is limiting when you have an active corp and want to play with your friends. I am looking at whether we can have 4 man squads for public and keep 6 or even 8 for FW. IMO there needs to be a team deploy option but ofc this would be terrible for the other side if they are solo players or in small 2 man or 3 man squads.
Many in my corp (before the majority got interested in other games) seemed to want to be able to sync deploy an entire team as a way to practice working together in preparation for PC battles. There is still a very good reason to make more friends to deploy with and having 8 man squads would be awesome.
The mechanic of making the squad before battle needs adjusting. If you put an option in scotty to sync up mercs for battle based on squad size likely the issue would be resolved with a better balance to teams. removing the limit on squad size or adding a platoon (multiple squads) deploy and formation options then it solves multiple issues at once.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
187
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Posted - 2015.01.13 14:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buwaro Draemon wrote:Pubs should be 4 man squads while FW and PC should have 6-8 man squads.
The stomping of randoms and newberries by 6 man squads on pubs have to stop. It is hurting the game. We need new players to stay not for old players to scare them away.
This idea of 4 on pubs and 6-8 on FW hurts no one but the stat padders and pub stompers. You want to roll with your 6 friends? Queue up for a FW battle. You would actually be helping FW queue times and *gasp* playing with players probably on your same level. Now I know that a lot of 6 man squads leave a match when they see that the other side also has 6 man squads.
4 man squads only on pubs hurts nobody except for the stat padders and stompers that want to feel good about themselves and ganging up on that one redberry trying to make the match worth it.
So Rattati, for the game's health do it. Make 4 man squads only for pubs. I think you are really quite sideways on this, why no squad? Its not like you receive bonus health for being in a squad of someone with "leadership boosters" in their head. In fact as a solo player I can still get within the top 3 spots on a regular basis if I just go and run my gun, and drop some equipment to help others. That is in PUB play without breaking out a whole bunch of proto gear.
Its not about padding stats its about working with the team to accomplish the goal, having larger groupings available would allow for better cooperation especially in pub matches where 1 squad on the other team is holding the map, the thing is that they are their team, its not ganging up, that one redberry is doing the wrong thing and needs to be grouping with others. Moving with the team, not being a lone target but part of the mob running at the enemy so the dps gets split between multiple targets.
In fact if I want to stat pad, my sniper rifle and proto scout work fine, as do my BPO logi suit fit with proto rep tool and proto nanite injector. Those too are parts of a team that are needed, just not for every merc. Larger squads would allow more specialization based on need by communication and working together rather than a bunch of solo players run and gunning.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
188
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Posted - 2015.01.14 15:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would like to align with the Blood Raiders, but I believe this is off topic.
EDIT: Down with all 4 of the Empires, Pirate til the end of time.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
188
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Posted - 2015.01.15 14:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:In Response to Tesfa Alem
1. * Better matchmaking: Blaming squad size for dust's current troubles is ludicrous ... What is the evidence for this claim?
Squad size has everything to do with today's matchmaking failures. When Scotty fails to find competent opposition for a large squad of vets, we get a pubstomp. Today, pubstomps are as common as good fights. This is evidence of a problem.
They are more related to player skill / drunkenness / dog chewing on the controller / family agro than anything CCP has a metric for and BTW its not just today. The pubstomps have always been common in First Person Shooters, even COD/BF/Momhasagun games. Heck the first closed beta match I played I got stomped and then stomped by my team mates checking out "friendly fire killing".
Vitantur Nothus wrote: 2. How will smaller squads of my friends who average between 30 million SP prevent the types of new players who run Sniper starter fits in Ambush getting into our matches?
Is it not reasonable to assume that newbros are less to blame for a given pubstomp than the pubstompers doing the stomping? If Team Building is working properly, newbros will find themselves onto either side of a match and effectively cancel each other out.
Most of the people doing the pubstomping are either highly skilled or have good FPS skills or both. You complain about newbros not knowing how to play? Get em in squad, or better yet get in theirs and help them get better.
Vitantur Nothus wrote: 3. * Better fights: Outright bullshit. Never in my time playing dust have i said, 'you know, if i only had two less friends then this match would run better." In fact its the opposite, smaller squads mean more reliance on people you don't know and can't communicate with, the smaller squad i run with the worse the matches become.
Not at all BS. When Scotty succeeds in pairing equally competent forces against one another, we get a good fight. When he fails to do so, we get a stomp. There are a finite number of squads (and stompsquads) available to Scotty at the time of matchmaking. Increasing that number gives Scotty a larger pool to work with, which in turn increases the probability that he'll serve a good fight. Further, a decrease in squad size translates to a decrease in Max(Mu) potential, which again increases the probability of a good fight.
Another way of saying this seems to be Git Gud
Vitantur Nothus wrote: 4. Carrying 16 people with a 6 man squad > carrying 14 people with a 4 man squad
A single squad carrying its side to victory should be a difficult undertaking but is not cause for concern. A single squad all-but-guaranteeing its side a victory match-after-match represents a serious matchmaking problem. When Scotty does his job well, the odds of winning or losing a given match are near 50:50 and winning has more to do with "teamwork" than "squadwork".
Even scrubs who use teamwork can beat proto jockeys totally true and tested, proven.
Vitantur Nothus wrote: 5. How can you tell, player side, that stomps are directly related to squad size? But to any player who wasn't in our squad it looks the end screen makes it look like a bunch of random blueberries got together. And thats how it is for 99% of my matches,lots of of buddies run in all differnt corps and channels, and there is no way for anybody to tell exactly how many people were in one squad without cheking the team selection during the match. If you can't reliable know who was in a squad or not at the end of the match, how can you tie squad size in of itself to a stomp?
It isn't difficult to make a mental note of the players who've stomped a match. Further, the odds of encountering the same players again and again over the course of a couple hours are pretty high. Even a dimwitted guy like me can spot a pattern if it's put-in-face a sufficient number of times.
Thats right, match finished at a time, everyone hit the quick deploy button again and everyone surprisingly got matched up for the same exact teams again only on a different map/same map. There is "no possible coincidence" here
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
188
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Posted - 2015.01.15 14:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Indy Strizer wrote:While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments.
I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players.
So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads. Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
188
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Posted - 2015.01.15 15:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Indy Strizer wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Indy Strizer wrote:While I agree that going with 4 man squads can help reduce the pub stomping, I also think that those players who do have enough people to group up to 6 should have some way to play together. Telling players that they should play faction warfare will split up multi-racial corporations. Telling those people to play in PC means they have to risk tons of ISK and commit to a game mode at a certain time they may not want to. I think there should at least be an option for them to play together without hassles, complications, or commitments.
I would suggest adjusting squad sizes for each of the upcoming meta battle tiers. The whole point of those is to prevent stomping while also funneling the big boys into playing with each other. Doing this would only further reinforce the intended effect and might hopefully prevent big groups of players steamrolling new solo players.
So basically... 4 for STD, 6 for ADV, 8 for PRO... and if militia servers become a thing, we have 2 man squads. Smaller squads means directly less teamwork opportunity. In fact 4 man squads (closed beta days) meant every match was a pub stomp one way or another. Reducing the size of squads will make the problem worse not better. If scotty threw you into a random squad however (if running solo) and filled partially filled squads, then things may sort themselves out to less pub stomping ofc this means that people need to learn how to operate as a team rather than as individuals, often on the fly. Seems like everyone is expecting a lot when it is a pub match. Less opportunity for team work? Uhh, that's sorta the point, not everybody can find a team, let alone one that can be relied upon to gang up on those who don't. From what I remember, stomping became much easier once we had 6 man squads and don't you think there were other factors in why there were stomps in closed beta like the huge difference between militia and prototype gear? Or maybe the match making and lack of Mu? Mu, from what I understand, tries to make the teams as even as possible, but part of the problem is that even if you pit 6 man squads against 6 players of equal skill, the squad wins because they're in a blob, they have passive scans, they have a designated logi repping their heavy, they have nanite injectors to preserve their proliferate, they communicate and flank, they can request nanohives... it goes on and on. Sure, it's teamwork, but it's too much to expect from pub matches just like you said so assigning people into random squads isn't preferabble in my mind. Ok so what you want is less teamwork? More Pubstomps, so long as its not you getting stomped. The thing is though, this is a team game not meant to showcase one player for turning the tide of battle, but rather working together wins. For that we have Wolfenstein 3d, a perfectly horid game that you likely can't find anymore unless you have a super special squirrel stash, or COD where it is a team game but even one rifle master on hardcore can kill the entire enemy team if they are good enough.
Pubstomps honestly have inspired more people to join corps than any other feature in this game. TLDR join a squad or corp and stop being part of the group being stomped and learn to stomp.
My stomp suit usually has a lv1 CR, lv1 sever logi suit, proto rep tool and an adv injector. Cost is less than my PC suit and it works just as good to logi bro and kill all at the same time. Average WP earned in the suit is around 1200-1500 wp. The reason it is a stomp suit is the fact that it allows the heavys to maintain their positions and stay up fighting, and helps the team.
Git gud. Git on a Squad. Support the team to stop the stomping.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
189
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Posted - 2015.01.15 17:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
Indy Strizer wrote:...lots was said...
Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad... My point isn't that there is a skill point gap in the squads or players team to team, its more about how they come together, play to their team mates. Assist and complement, not what gear they are using and has little to do with the fact that there are 6 man squads, which on a 6-6-4 team (2 six man squads, 4 randoms) the 4 solo players having the ability to fit in where they find their niche on the battle field supporting the 2 squads or just run and gunning. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the squad size is what it is, the squads allow for greater co-operation among friends and corp mates. It helps more than it hinders. Larger squad sizes would allow half the team to be on a squad, allowing more co-operation not less, reducing the stomping. Ofc this really relies on people squading up to their full potential.
I can see your point about proxy chat but that's a cop out. Inviting people to your squad is a start, teaching them a better way is the next step.
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
189
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Posted - 2015.01.17 05:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Indy Strizer wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Indy Strizer wrote:...lots was said...
Just remember that we don't have proxy chat, voice chat is turned off by default when they first play, they don't visit the forums, there is no in game tutorial, they're half-commited to this because it's a free game they're just trying out, not to mention players don't just magically get better by joining a squad... My point isn't that there is a skill point gap in the squads or players team to team, its more about how they come together, play to their team mates. Assist and complement, not what gear they are using and has little to do with the fact that there are 6 man squads, which on a 6-6-4 team (2 six man squads, 4 randoms) the 4 solo players having the ability to fit in where they find their niche on the battle field supporting the 2 squads or just run and gunning. It has nothing at all to do with the fact that the squad size is what it is, the squads allow for greater co-operation among friends and corp mates. It helps more than it hinders. Larger squad sizes would allow half the team to be on a squad, allowing more co-operation not less, reducing the stomping. Ofc this really relies on people squading up to their full potential. I can see your point about proxy chat but that's a cop out. Inviting people to your squad is a start, teaching them a better way is the next step. Sorry about not responding, I thought I did. Just so you know, your point is pretty much my point. The skill point gap wasn't what I was talking about when I said "skill". I literally mean that a pub stomping squad can collectively be disproportionately skilled in the game of Dust compared to any random 6 average players and it only gets worse when you throw in protogear, skill point disparity, and the general advantages of being squadded up. Sure, it's team work. Sure, they can squad up. ...but, can they squad up with good players to pub stomp all day? Nope. It's unbalanced. I think we should simply make STD metalevel battles low risk, low reward battles with a back to basics feel. If people want to get corpmates together, then things should escalate, they should go into riskier higher metalevel battles, FW, or PC. Also how the hell is mentioning the reality of the many inconvenient communication barriers between us and new players a cop out? Did you really just tell me that players should invite new players to their squad to teach them? Isn't expecting players to help reduce pub stomping by becoming their personal tutors an unrealistic solution? Well the argument about meta gear is problematic, for instance the suit i mentioned earlier has a mix of meta 1 thru proto in it so really it isn't a top meta suit but effective more in the combination of mods and playstyle. In fact it is a meta 1 suit (still logi but 1st level) so really what would be better is for everyone to go through the same frustrating process of actually learning the game a bit before being a super awesome merc rather than being able to go against the same class player suits as everyone in the match. War isn't fair the fact that you expect a video game to be fair when it is about war is surprising.
Still as for pub stomps, and getting rid of them maybe a solo mode would be good. Then co-operation would be limited or still somewhat cohesive but generally less so. This contradicts everything this game has good in it atm though so I am not really sure it is a good idea.
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
189
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Posted - 2015.01.17 23:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
So I have now done some research and have found that a completely random grouping of people in Pubs in a squad does work even without mic support, just using basic squad commands (squad leader knows what he/she is doing with the almighty wheel) and by playing as a team of people.
To do this I made a "Public" squad and waited for it to fill up with people. As time went on we went from Dominating the matches (domination mode) to outright cloning out the other team over the course of 3 hrs. The squad started as 2 members and grew with each match and was successful. We had squad members from more than one random corp and it was amazing how well everyone who just wanted to play as a team could work together both without comms and without any instructions other than normal squad commands.
We did not proto stomp, we rolled over all the solo players on the other teams. Like a wave of terror they ran fleeing to the hills and tried to snipe us but still we came on strong and persevered. It was like a death squad in some horror film, not even the tanks that they threw at us could stand up to our fury.
Keep in mind this was a completely random group of mercs who all joined a squad and deployed with some simple planning before hand. Punch for ammo, stay together to stay alive, follow squad orders for movement. This is not hard to do guys and really funny how well it worked.
Thank you to all who participated in the application of bullets with me this afternoon. It was a true pleasure I will be running these Public Access Squads on a regular basis, if you want to be part of the "education process" join me in schooling the solos, one match at a time.
How long til this hits PC?
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
190
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Posted - 2015.01.17 23:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
voidfaction wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:So I have now done some research and have found that a completely random grouping of people in Pubs in a squad does work even without mic support, just using basic squad commands (squad leader knows what he/she is doing with the almighty wheel) and by playing as a team of people. To do this I made a "Public" squad and waited for it to fill up with people. As time went on we went from Dominating the matches (domination mode) to outright cloning out the other team over the course of 3 hrs. The squad started as 2 members and grew with each match and was successful. We had squad members from more than one random corp and it was amazing how well everyone who just wanted to play as a team could work together both without comms and without any instructions other than normal squad commands. We did not proto stomp, we rolled over all the solo players on the other teams. Like a wave of terror they ran fleeing to the hills and tried to snipe us but still we came on strong and persevered. It was like a death squad in some horror film, not even the tanks that they threw at us could stand up to our fury. Keep in mind this was a completely random group of mercs who all joined a squad and deployed with some simple planning before hand. Punch for ammo, stay together to stay alive, follow squad orders for movement. This is not hard to do guys and really funny how well it worked. Thank you to all who participated in the application of bullets with me this afternoon. It was a true pleasure I will be running these Public Access Squads on a regular basis, if you want to be part of the "education process" join me in schooling the solos, one match at a time. Can that work with a flanking scout in the squad? I could handle being in a squad like that but as a scout I don't play front line. Absolutely, this works with many varied formats of squads from Heavy with Logi support to Assault, Scout flanking/hacking Heavy Logi center and back as well as with vehicles. As a scout when I flank I like to stay close enough to the squad to help hit the guys hitting my guys, basically close enough to get help. Part of the process is watching the tac map and checking who your members are engaging so that you can be close and providing cover fire or receiving cover fire as you get the objective.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
194
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Posted - 2015.01.18 00:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
Imp Smash wrote:Ratta mentioned that the CPM is vocally split on the topic.
And as we have seen in the forums the playerbase is split on the topic.
So I think we should consider the background of the players on each side of this debate. Specifically -- past experience with it.
Of the players who want smaller squad sizes in Ambush, Dom, and Skirm -- how many are older players who were around when we had smaller squad sizes. Of the players who want to keep squad sizes larger -- how many are newer players who have not had smaller squads?
I am willing to bet (and this is just wild speculation on my part -- I recognize this) that most of the people who would be ok with smaller squads (including among the CPM) are players who came after we had larger squads implemented all those years ago. I am also willing to bet the players who are NOT ok with smaller squads are players who were around when squad size was buffed.
I want to be clear -- I am not saying that (if the above guess were true) this would invalidate or validate anyone's opinion on the matter. There are some plenty fine arguments for both side of the debate that bear consideration. I am just curious as to how our collective past experiences affect our opinions on the matter as that may provide a clue as to a system that would the most people happy (or mostly happy.) How about the ones who have played equal time with both (like me) and feel it would be better to have the largest size teams deploying together as possible? Platoon deploy running a public access platoon would be sweet!
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
207
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Posted - 2015.01.18 15:13:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tesfa Alem wrote:SirManBoy wrote:
If you think I am thrilled by this, then you are mistaken. However, this is the way the wind is blowing. Instead of obstructing the process, I plan on brokering the most equitable outcome I can for all interested parties.
Its extremley frustrating seeing a good chunk of what makes dust fun is being tossed out for no good reason at all. Certainly not for matchmaking. Are the Devs trying to convince people to run PC? Sure Pc is being reworked right now, but we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Its still the least popular game mode, any tradeoff that affects every player of Dust for a fringe minority is bad one. FW? Why do i want to run a game mode exactly the same as a pub skirmish that doesn't pay in Isk. Last time i checked there are no Assault Dropships in the loyalty store. Dust 514 is still a lobby shooter. Login, squad with friends, pick a game mode, play some matches, log off. To keep the same social/cooperative level we have now, either wait 24hrs, accomadate each person's racial faction, or que sync two squads. people are complaining one squad of 6 is killing the game, yet want to encourage two squads of eight.... Its one of the worst ideas I have ever seen. For the devs to think its a good one, well its disheartening, shows a true lack of understanding of anything to do with Dust. Which is players enjoy the company of other players, teamwork and what that brings to table. Theres no story mode here, there is no PvE, its literaaly just the experinces that the players make together. So why wound it? Holy Sniper Cakes Batman, this post is absolutely true!
I spent a year cracking the CCP heads over getting PVE and so far deaf ears. Ofc I also jammed the necessity of a market down CCPs throat (the same thing I had been saying since day 1) and had the help of every one else in the forums and still we don't have it yet and until we do have it I'm not going to believe we do. As far as I can tell the market analyst they hired to do the market stuff is still sipping mai tais on a beach somewhere until proven otherwise with a functioning market. Yes I know how much my Thales is worth no I don't need an analyst to tell me how much to charge I will ask for as much as I can possibly get for it!
Hear me now, the same thing you are complaining is ruining the game is what you should be doing to have fun. Squad up with people! Make some tears and grow a pair of proto balls you whining "balancing" bad people. Its not balance when it all sucks. To have balance you have to be off the ground level in one measure or another. Scrap any thoughts of reducing squad size, that's the wrong direction.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
207
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Posted - 2015.01.18 15:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:As stated before, I am not against reducing squad size to 4. I actually think it's a good idea, provided larger groups have somewhere to go with the Platoon (8) or Battleforce (16) options.
As far as I see it, we want to acheve the following goals: - Make it easier for the matchmaker and team builder to work efficiently. - Reduce the effects of Pub-stomps (large coordinated squads vs random blueberries) - Still allow larger groups to enjoy the game without kicking half the team to squeeze into a squad of 4.
So, here is a modified proposal for Pubs which I think will cover the above points. - Squads (4) gets matched against other squads (pref) and solo players. - Platoons (8) gets matched against other Platoons (pref) and Squads (4), but no solo players. - Battleforces (16) get matched against Battleforces (pref) and Platoons, but no Squads or solo players.
So, the larger group you form, the larger opposition (groups) you will face. I suspect new players usually play solo or in small squads before they find a good corp, so in the above scenario they will never meet opposition greater than squads of 4. Vets with lots of friends can still enjoy grouping up together with the larger Platoon group size of 8. Big corps wanting to challenge other corps for a 16 vs 16 game can "easily" que-sync and get a private corp battle.
Since the team size of 16 can be evenly divided by all group sizes, I beleve the matchmaker will have an easier time grouping everybody together.
The smaller squad sizes just kill the teamwork already established, I could see smaller squad sizes being ok only if people were having wait issues because there are no slots in a team to join due to everyone being in a squad of 6 all the time but this is far from true. In fact the vast majority of people I see in game are running without a squad and sometimes even without the foggiest idea about what makes a team or what an OB is until it slaps them all over the forehead.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
207
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Posted - 2015.01.18 16:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
211
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Posted - 2015.01.19 00:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
deezy dabest wrote:Regis Blackbird wrote:deezy dabest wrote:My thought on this are simple.
If you think this will actually help the game then go for it.
If this is just yet another band aid fix in an attempt to stomp whining about matchmaking the STOP IT AND FIX match making.
Personally I think squads of 4 in pubs are a terrible idea. What we actually need is match size increased to 18 on both sides so that 3 squads of 6 can fit into a match. I feel like this would have a surprisingly positive affect because it would allow 6 of the proto squads attempting to stomp to be crammed into a match of their own instead of a new match being made for 2 of them and filling it up with randoms that get dumped on. I could go for increasing team size to 18, but as stated by CCP Rattati it will have a cost of performance. Regardless how you do it, I think it's importaint that the available squad sizes can fit evenly into the team. But, I would prefer to have more options of squad sizes. Maybe if they drop the rendering of objects that are 500m into the redline we could fit 4 more people into battle. That is just a thought that will be buried bu CCP scrambling to slap on more band aids that only push the game further into disarray. It is actions exactly like this which have led to myself and many others giving up on Dust. So many problems have been caused by band aid fixes like this one that is being proposed that it has led to an absolutely horrible experience. I can give many examples of band aids like this being applied but can only think of a few things that actually seemed to get FIXED. Hell just make match size in pubs 6 versus 6 so there is no lag and proto squads can be paired against proto squads. PROBLEM SOLVED. Just because I have proto gear doesn't mean I want to use it...I am not isk wealthy by any means, I instead attempt to be isk efficient.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
211
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Posted - 2015.01.19 00:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps.
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
214
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Posted - 2015.01.20 03:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
Regis Blackbird wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Regis Blackbird wrote:DJINN Jecture wrote:Tell you what, how about instead of getting 5 of your friends together to run squads only pick up 3 or 4 others to run with, see if it makes a difference. I am honestly not sure what your point is? Are you implying it's less fun? More difficult? No difference? What if you could invite 7 other friends instead of 5? Then I would...I am an advocate for larger team sizes, bigger battles more gore, more ragdoll, a market that functions exactly the same as the Eve market, true Open World gameplay, PVE missions involving shooting things not people, Opening the stations so we can walk around and murder each other in our quarters, Merc transports through New Eden and having CCP complete their ideas in a manner that works better rather than creating more problems every time something gets fixed. But this is a lot to be interested in, how about more fun with more peeps. Then Sir, we are in total agreement (One can dream, right?) +1 As you can see from my previous posts, I agree to a reduction of squad size to 4 IF Platoons (8) and Battleforces (16) have access to all modes (Pubs & FW). This is doable by arranging how each group size is matched against eachother, as per my previous proposal. Question is how difficult it would be to implement, if even possible. Is it the golden bullet which will end pub stomps overnight? Absolutley not.Will it give more options to players to play the game on their terms? YesWill it give small squads and solo players a break from large organized squads? YesWill it help the matchmaker to balance the matches? I honestly think so. I realize this but have seen how incomplete a 4 man squad truly from the Closed Beta and how much better a squad of 6 is able to survive even if the rest of the team is sitting in the red line wondering what to do because it's their first ever match and they still are unsure at what range their guns are effective. For instance COD players would expect next to unlimited range on their guns while a vet would know that for the most part you gotta close on your enemy to kill them.
The increased amount of support a 6 man squad can give to each other is far more robust than the 4 man squad and thus stands a better chance of survival, even in PC battles. In fact I have been in PC Battles where squads were made up of 4 man teams and invariably they have been hard pressed to last longer than the first 2 merc going down. There is less room for the specializing that makes Dust great. More general suits benefit the squads more resulting in less logi, less dps, less scouting and less suppression fire simply. This also means that overall the teams would have to bee better planned with more pre battle role based decisions made to ensure all roles needed are covered. Sure you have the same number of team mates but in a pub crawl you get your squad set up so all roles are covered to maximize your efficiency, the team has no control over who joins or leaves and no time to discuss beforehand as we had when Pub Matches had a warbarge before deploying to the field.
When CCP described this game on launch (if I remember correctly) they described it as a tactical mmo fps which to me says the strongest tactic wins. If we take tactics out of it we may as well just go play BF4 or COD of whatever flavor because those games have been through the grinder and can do a good online MMO fps from a run and gun perspective. I like the fact that planning gives you options, strategy victory. Not just having the best twitch reaction to a flicker on your screen.
From all I have said you may notice that I specifically did not say I am against 4 man squads, in fact they may do great as part of a platoon, I advocated for larger groupings to allow for more varied tactics to be used in pub matches. I personally would rather group up in 2-4 man squads and deploy as a platoon rather than deploy as 2 six man squads q-synching and end up shooting at my bros. If that means 8 man squads or platoons either way is perfectly acceptable but I honestly believe there should not be a limit on squad size other than max team size and that there shouldn't be a max team size either.
I know right, obviously this would require a lot of work from CCP to fix the way the game works, and in addition to that to build levels big enough and optimized enough that render wouldn't be an issue. This is not what the OP is about though, its about 4/6/8 man squads, not platoons, not open team sizes (could be a worse pub stomp based on numbers than anyone has seen before) but I maintain in the current for 4 man squads are just opening up Dust to more complaints about pub stomps not less.
Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!
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DJINN Jecture
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
214
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Posted - 2015.01.20 18:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Vitantur Nothus wrote:Quote:4 man squads from Closed Beta Dust has changed since we last saw 4 man squads. The players have also changed. In Closed Beta, a seasoned merc may have had an SP headstart on a newbro of 1M SP; the combined SP gap of this veteran's "stompsquad" would have been a maximum of 4-5M SP over that of a newbro or newbro squad. Today, that gap can quite literally reach into the 100s of millions. If we think of this SP gap in terms of weight, today's stompsquads are both larger and many times heavier than yesterday's. Dust hasn't changed that much. There are still very well skilled players on the field stomping other well skilled players, noobs and vets alike. Measuring the "stomp factor" of a squad by SP is a mistake. To really look at "stomp factor" you can use the formula WP/(KDR*Kills). It is a very real metric on how well the player kills and works with the team. The lower the number, the better the player is (any number approaching 1 is going to shoot blue balls of fire out of their eyes instantly evaporating the entire enemy team).
With this metric you will see duna2002 at a stomp factor of 2.11337~ whereas for instance myself clocking in at around 213.59645~. By far duna2002 is the better player, and tbh with a KDR of 45.03 I would expect him to be.
Using this metric to adjust how scotty builds teams may be the answer to the problem, ofc I would also like to point out that being able to pick which fights we take and those we don't would be a better option.
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